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Batman Returns
146 Plays5 years ago
Michael Keaton might be coming back as Batman! So we looked at the last time he did that by discussing Batman Returns, a movie that’s not so much a Batman movie, but is still a really cool and weird flick to look back on with some killer performances.
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Transcript
Masked Character's Direct Approach
00:00:25
Speaker
Admiring your handiwork? Touring the riot scene. Gravely assessing the devastation. Upstanding mayor stuff. You're not the mayor.
00:00:51
Speaker
What do you want? Ah, the direct approach. I admire that in a man with a mask. You don't really think you'll win, do you? Things change.
00:01:22
Speaker
Meow.
Intro & Current Events
00:01:29
Speaker
Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. I am half of your co-host Perry Constantine. And as always, I am the other half, Derek Ferguson. How are things going over by you, Derek?
00:01:42
Speaker
I'm pretty good. We've been going through something of a heat wave the last couple of days has been up in the 80s and 90s. Matter of fact, we've been running the air conditioner constantly for the last three or four days. Fortunately, my wife and I, we're at that
00:02:00
Speaker
time of life, you know, our situation is such that we don't have to go out unless we want to go out, so we don't have to go out in the heat. That's good. And yeah, you know what? It gives me an excuse to stay home and watch movies. Good, good. Especially superhero movies. Very good.
00:02:20
Speaker
And we've had a bit of a heat wave over here, too. Probably not as bad as where you are. But we also had a bunch of rain lately, like two days this week. No kidding, twice this week, we got evacuation notices on the emergency alerts on our phones for the lower parts of the city. Because there was so much rain that there was flooding going on. And they're worried about
00:02:49
Speaker
landslides and that kind of shit. So no fool. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're fine. We're like up in a secure part of the mountain. So we didn't have to worry about anything for us. It was just an annoyance. But but yeah, they like blared the siren and everything. It was nuts. Wow. Gave you a good scare, huh? Not really because it's happened a few times. So you kind of get used to it by now. Like we had a big flood situation. I think it was last year where
00:03:19
Speaker
Like I literally could not get to work because they closed off the roads both ways going down the mountain. Hmm. It never fails to amaze me as to what as human beings we can get used to. Yeah. You know, the stuff that, you know, okay, it scares the shit out of you the first couple of times that happened. But then if it happens enough times, it's like, yeah, okay. Yeah. And we, and you know, we just carry on. We go to work, we go to school.
00:03:48
Speaker
Well, like we were talking about just before we started recording, like, you know, this year has been so crazy that, you know, when my kid is, when my kid is growing up, you know, they're going to say like, they're going to see something crazy and they're going to be like, why aren't
2020's Unpredictability
00:04:00
Speaker
you surprised? And I'll be like, because I lived through 2020. That's why. Yeah, exactly. I mean, for those of us who make it through 2020, I don't think that there's anything that will ever surprise us. Although I shouldn't say that because every time I say that, it happens and you know,
00:04:18
Speaker
Last time you said that we had murder hornets, so, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have murder hornets, so, you know, listen. Hey, you know what? I just, I've read something on...
00:04:30
Speaker
on Twitter the other day that they said that the news, instead of saying breaking news, it should just be, okay, what shit has done happen now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that meme started going around like 2016 or 2017, but it's so much more, it's like breaking news and it says like, oh, fuck what now? Yeah, right, yeah, exactly. And that's just been like the past like three years, like every, it's just been getting progressively more and more insane.
00:04:59
Speaker
Yeah, that's just what it should be. Oh, shit, what the fuck could happen now? Yeah. Instead of breaking. Because, you know what? Because that's the world we live in now. That's it. That is the world we live in now. All right. So before we jump into the movie, there's some news that you posted about just today, I saw.
Ray Fisher vs. Joss Whedon Allegations
00:05:23
Speaker
So Ray Fisher apparently accusing Josh Whedon of abusive behavior on the set of Justice League.
00:05:30
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know what, I posted it for the people who are in our group, and I love all of our group members,
00:05:41
Speaker
Who followed this thing? Because for me personally, I'm so sick of hearing about Justice League. I don't know what to do. I don't do this shit anymore. I really don't. I don't care. All this energy expended into this thing is totally baffling to me. Well, I'm going to announce now that next week we're going to be covering Justice League.
00:06:04
Speaker
Oh, OK. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. No, no, no. No, I mean, listen, if you want to do Justice League, I have got no problem. Because Justice League, as it stands, the movie, you know, I liked it. I didn't think it was the best Justice League movie that could have been made, but I didn't have the overwhelming hatred for it that, you know, a lot of people do. Right. And, you know, and as I said before, I don't believe
00:06:33
Speaker
that this director's cut is gonna turn out to be the holy grail that everybody thinks, you know, people acting like this is the Ark of the Covenant, you know? No, no. You know this Justice League movie. I mean, come on. Let's be for real. Because it's not, as you said before, quite accurately, it's not as if there was all these extra scenes that, you know, never got shown or that the movie was taken away from him.
00:06:59
Speaker
Right. Yeah. You know, he left because of a family tragedy. So, yeah. Now, if circumstances were different and the movie had been taken away from him and there was a lot of footage he had shot that was suppressed, okay, that'd be a different thing we're talking about. But that's not what we're talking about here.
00:07:17
Speaker
Right, right, yeah. Also, so about these allegations, like there's not really a whole lot to it. Fisher just, he speaks very, he speaks in generalities and then he also implicates Jeff Johns saying like he didn't do anything to stop it and of course, you know, Jeff Johns and Warner Brothers, they denied
00:07:37
Speaker
that there was any of that had happened. They'd ever heard any complaints or anything like that. But Fisher doesn't really provide any examples of what was going on. Now that's not to say he's lying or anything, but
00:07:50
Speaker
And Whedon has had some stuff come out against him before, like when him and his wife divorced, his wife came out and accused him of being a fake feminist who was cheating on her. And so there's that whole thing as well. So it's not like it's out of the realm of possibility, but there's nothing, I think it should be investigated, whatever it is. But what pisses me off about this is the way the Snyder fans, they're treating this like red meat.
00:08:17
Speaker
Oh well. After I read that story that you posted, I went on Twitter and saw Josh Whedon was trending. So I clicked on it and read through some of the tweets and Snyder fans are like, you think this is like their Mardi Gras.
00:08:34
Speaker
I mean, and then, and to make it even worse, because they've got an axe to grind against James Gunn, right? Because when talk of the Snyder Cut first came out, someone asked him, what do you think of the Snyder Cut? And James Gunn just kind of flippantly replied, doesn't that have like 14 followers? Who cares?
00:08:54
Speaker
Yeah. And then, so Snyder fans got righteously pissed off. How dare he insult our great movie that we've never seen before. And then, of course, you know, James Gunn gets brought in to basically reboot Suicide Squad. So they're pissed at him for that because the original was much more in Snyder-vision style. Exactly, yeah. So Alan Tudyk was asked about it. And, you know, Alan Tudyk worked with Josh Whedon on a bunch of different stuff.
00:09:23
Speaker
And he said, look, I worked with Josh Weeden over the span of like 17 years. I wasn't on the set of Justice League. I don't know what happened there. But in my experiences with him, I've never seen anything like this. And that's all I'm going to say. OK, fair enough. And
Societal Reactions to Allegations
00:09:37
Speaker
that's fair enough. Yeah, you didn't see anything. You knew the guy for 17 years. Yeah, sure. Go ahead. And you're not saying, like, it's impossible. You're just saying, I never saw anything. I never. Right, exactly. I didn't see it. Right. So you don't. James Gunn liked that tweet.
00:09:51
Speaker
And the Snyder fans are now trying to cancel James Gunn because he liked that fucking tweet. You know, I mean, this whole thing has just gotten so out of here. And see, going back to what you said about, you know, that there wasn't any, any, um, specific details mentioned in the allegations.
00:10:17
Speaker
But you know something, our society has deteriorated to the point that really now that's all you have to do. You don't have to give any evidence. You don't have to give any proof. All you have to do is just make the claim that there was some sort of abuse, whether it's sexual, psychological, physical, whatever. And everybody, you know, they jump on the bandwagon.
00:10:39
Speaker
you know really that's all you have to do now. This also came out right after John
Misinformation on Social Media
00:10:44
Speaker
Boyega said some stuff about his treatment on sets and stuff like that so I'm wondering if Ray Fisher's just trying to jump on the bandwagon or what's going on here because that has been known to happen. Now again I'm not like they should any any claim should be investigated but you know the the timing is is kind of weird to me and especially because in
00:11:04
Speaker
you know, back in, when he was in 2017, he was saying like, you know, oh, Josh Whedon did such a great job on set. Zack Snyder really found a good guy to replace him and all this stuff, so. Yeah, and I mean, and I don't know why it's so hard for people to just say, well, you know what, let me reserve judgment until I've investigated a little bit more and then, you know, I can make up my mind. Right. People, people like, I mean, you know, they read stuff.
00:11:34
Speaker
And I was just having a discussion about this today, as a matter of fact, with somebody. And they were saying, oh, well, how come you don't post this, or how come you don't post that? I said, well, I don't post a lot of songs, because people aren't going to read it anyway. Yeah, yeah. I said, they don't. I said, people see shit on Facebook, or Twitter, or whatever like that. And they just read the headline and stuff like that. They don't read the actual story. They really don't.
00:11:59
Speaker
And then later on, when you asked them about it, and then they said, oh, really? That's what... Well, I posted the story. Didn't you read? Well, no, I just read the... Well, okay. Well, then you don't know what you're talking about. It's just that simple. I don't know. I came from a generation where people prided themselves on talking on subjects that they actually knew something about. You don't have that now. People, they just...
00:12:25
Speaker
spout any kind of bullshit that comes to their heads. And when you call them on it, they get mad. Well, I'm sorry. But as an adult, when I talk to you on a subject
00:12:39
Speaker
and you're answering me back, I'm going on the assumption that you know what the fuck you're talking about. Yeah. I also saw some of these Snyder films fans on Twitter accusing people who didn't like the Snyder films of causing this abuse, essentially. Because they're saying, you didn't like the Snyder movies, and then now, Josh Wien's accused of abuse. And it's all your fault. I'm like, how does your brain even draw those connections? Exactly.
00:13:10
Speaker
Really, what kind of thought process do you have that led you to that conclusion? I mean, they're not even remotely related. I mean, not liking Snyder films doesn't mean you wanted Josh Whedon to abuse people. I mean, got nothing to do with what we're talking about. How do you even bring that into the, you know, and it's just, oh my God, it's just...
00:13:36
Speaker
Really, but that's why I limit my conversations to people such as you, my friend. Because serious, I'm sorry, blame me all you want, folks. I got this quirk in me that I like talking to people who know what they're talking about. Yeah, sue me.
00:13:56
Speaker
Really, I mean, you know, with the way people are acting these days and the way 2020 is going so far, you better not make that dare. And the bottom line is, it's just a movie. Yeah. We have far more important things to put your energy and time and passion into.
00:14:19
Speaker
than a frigging movie.
Why Discuss Batman Returns?
00:14:21
Speaker
I'm sorry. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. I got something coming in here. OK, it's a court summons. Apparently, some Snyder fanboys are suing both you and me, we're co-defendants, for emotional trauma. OK. Well, I will have my lawyers get in touch with their lawyers. I have very good lawyers.
00:14:49
Speaker
That didn't take them long. Geez. You can't work fast. All right. Now, let's talk about something a little bit more pleasant, and that is your pick of this week, and that's Batman Returns. Now, before we jump in the movie, talk a little bit about why you wanted to choose this movie, because this is actually somewhat timely.
00:15:10
Speaker
Yeah, as I said last week, my first choice was actually going to be Batman year one because I've been on an animation kick lately. But recently in the news, the movie world and the comic book world is abuzz because there
00:15:31
Speaker
As we have seen, there is a God because Michael Keaton is going to be suiting up as Batman again. Well, I think it's still, let's not, let's not get people's hopes up too much because I think they're still in negotiations. Well, there's no contract sign. Right. Yeah. So I don't want to, I don't want to get my hopes up until there's a contract sign and there's an official press release because otherwise I'm going to be very disappointed if it doesn't go. Yeah. Well, I'm like you.
00:15:54
Speaker
I'm going to wait until I see something official from Warner Brothers. When Warner Brothers put out an official press statement and say, yeah, OK, well.
00:16:03
Speaker
I mean, no, we got them. But from everything that I've read, from reputable sources such as The Hollywood Reporter and Variety, that the negotiations are going well. And we are this close, I got my fingers crossed, folks. Folks, we are this close to it being a done deal. Yeah.
00:16:26
Speaker
You know, so yeah, so Michael Keaton once again playing Batman Bruce Wayne in the upcoming Flash movie is guaranteed to get me now to go see the movie, which I really had no interest in seeing before. But you know, this is actually kind of interesting because I wonder if Ezra Miller is still going to be involved with it because there was that whole thing a few months back with him in Sweden, like beating up someone.
00:16:51
Speaker
Well, see, that's the whole thing now that I'm thinking about. Okay, they keep on talking about this. Okay, first of all, this Flash movie has been, it's gone through what, in like six directors in like, what, three, four years or something like that? They've been talking about this movie. Yeah, I mean, DC and Warner Brothers, they're committed to doing this movie for some reason.
00:17:13
Speaker
a flash movie. And the only reason why I can think of that they're committed to doing it is because they've already established that the flash in the TV series is like the linchpin of the whole multiverse, you know, concept. So, and we did see Ezra Miller appear as the flash in The Crisis on Infinite Earth. Right. You know, the TV
00:17:37
Speaker
a multi-part epic that we saw on the CW. So that's the reason why I think that, you know, because they said, okay, well, if we can pull off a successful Flash movie, we can link in all of these other DC movies and stuff like that. And kind of clean up, you know, the mess that the DC EU has become. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But
00:18:04
Speaker
like you, I'm wondering, well, didn't Ezra Miller get himself into some serious trouble a while back? So, I mean, you know, what are they going to do? Yeah, so, I mean, you know what? At this point, just get Grant Gustin to come and play him in the Flash movie. You know what? I don't see why they...
00:18:23
Speaker
See, again, this is why I mean you don't run movie studios, because we would do the simplest thing, I guess. We would just say, well, you know what? OK, he's out. Greg, you want to step up and you want to do the big budget thing? I'm sure he would not turn it down. Oh, no. Hell no. Yeah. And just do a big budget flash movie with him. Everybody likes him. He's easy to work with for everything I've heard as opposed to Ezra Miller.
00:18:48
Speaker
So, you know, I don't know. So anyway, since we are all, since in the press, we're all talking about
00:18:58
Speaker
Michael Keaton returning as Batman, I then thought that it would be appropriate if you and I talked about Batman Returns. Right, because we already talked about the first Batman back in our second episode. Yeah, that was our second episode, the 1989. Which is actually, it's actually good because Keaton actually does some really cool things with his performance in this one. And before we jump into that, though, I want to say that, you know,
00:19:25
Speaker
bringing in Keaton as an old Bruce Wayne, like that is, this is something that we've been talking, like we talked about this, although I think back when we did the first, when we did that Batman episode, like we talked about, you know, and if Warner Brothers was smart, they do a Batman Beyond movie and they bring Michael Keaton back to play. And it looks like this kind of opens the door for that. Yeah. Because apparently, unless I'm mistaken, from what the reporting says, it may not just be one film, it may be for like a series of films.
00:19:55
Speaker
I mean, you know, Michael Keaton is, you know, he's at the right age now. I mean, to play older Bruce Wayne. You know, matter of fact, he could do the live action version of The Dark Knight now. Oh, yeah. I mean, I would love to see that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Michael Keaton, and you know what? Now people take him seriously. Right. Enough as an actor. Back when he first did the first Batman movie, you know, nobody took him seriously. And you know, and I mean,
00:20:25
Speaker
You know, there were telegrams because, of course, we didn't have the internet then. But there were telegrams and stuff like that. And there were actual protests where people were saying Michael Keaton was going to ruin the movie. Now, here we are. What is it, like 40 years later? And people are still saying that their favorite Batman is Michael Keaton.
00:20:47
Speaker
Well, also, and that's nothing to diminish Keaton's abilities back then, because he was a good actor back then, too. But he's become so much more experienced, and he's elevated his craft so much. I mean, some of these movies he's done in recent years, like obviously Spider-Man Homecoming, but also Spotlight, he was amazing in that. The founder, Birdman. I mean, he was the best part of the Robocop reboot.
00:21:15
Speaker
Yeah, exactly, exactly. There was what, what was that movie I saw him in recently, American Assassin. I think that was it. He was in that one. He was good. You know, yeah. I mean, like all the roles that he's done. Michael Keaton has elevated his acting game to such a level that the man can literally play anything he wants now. And I forgot about this, but he was also in Jackie Brown.
00:21:41
Speaker
Yeah, Jackie Brown, right. Yeah, he was in that one, playing the same character he played in. Out of sight. Out of sight, yeah. Right, Ray Nicolette. Yeah, Ray Nicolette, yeah. Too bad they never got a spin off from him about that, because I would have loved to see that. Well, they actually thought that that's the way they was going to go, because they got a special dispensation, because those two movies were made by two different studios.
00:22:08
Speaker
Oh, okay. But they went together and they hooked up a deal and stuff like that so that Keaton could play the same character in Jackie Brown. And I do recall reading an interview. I dimly, they asked them because some other character from that movie got a TV series, the character from Out of Sight,
00:22:32
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. The Jennifer Lopez character. Right. The Jennifer Lopez character. She got spun off into a TV series and they asked Keaton, well, would you like it if, you know, like Ray, you know, got his own set and Keaton said, yeah, you know, I'd be down for that. No problem. But, you know, they do a lot of talking about things spinning off and stuff like that. And it never happened.
00:22:51
Speaker
Well, actually, that's a nice segue into this because this movie was also, for a long time, there was supposed to be a Catwoman spinoff from this movie, which would have brought Michelle Pfeiffer back and would have been directed by Tim Burton originally. And Tim Burton had actually worked on the movie for a little bit, but it ended up eventually morphing into whatever it was that Halle Berry gave us.
00:23:13
Speaker
Yeah, that was the original plan. This movie was intended to kick off a Catwoman spin-off series. Yeah. Okay, now let's jump into this movie. Now, the interesting, I remember I saw this movie back when it first came out in the theater in 1992, so I was like nine years old when this came out. Maybe eight, because it was probably like, because it came out in the summer, so it was probably like right before my eighth birthday.
00:23:40
Speaker
um so uh right before my ninth birthday i mean so yeah so i was probably like eight or nine years old when this came out and um because i i love the the i become a batman fanatic by this point right because i had um i loved the original movie i was watching the tv show on reruns um the you know the adam west show because this was because the animated series didn't come out until i think the fall after this movie came out
00:24:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And like the hype for this movie, like you talked about Batmanian 1989. I was too young to remember that. So, but for me, my Batmania was 1992. Like I had bought all Batman stuff. I had like all the toys. I had like all these different clothes. I had like Batman t-shirts, Batman pajamas, you know, Batman everything. Like I was like. Oh yeah. I mean, you know, there was, there was a Batmania.
00:24:34
Speaker
around this movie. Of course, because everybody was, you know, okay, before everybody was talking about, oh, Tim Burton. Oh, well, they weren't sure about him as director. They wasn't sure about Michael Keaton. Forget about it. There were people lined up for months before this movie came out to see it, because now, of course, everybody loves Michael Keaton as Batman. And, oh, Tim Burton, no, he's a genius. He's, you know, he's revitalized the entire genre, which he
00:25:00
Speaker
Which he actually did. He revitalized the whole genre of what a superhero movie could be. So now people were eager. This movie had an audience waiting for it.
00:25:14
Speaker
Yeah. And they really wanted to get the band back together because Tim Burton did not really want to do it, right? He didn't want to direct another film in the franchise. And he said that, you know, I'll return if the sequel offers something new and exciting. Otherwise it's the most dumbfounded idea. And then he went to do Edward Scissorhands.
00:25:42
Speaker
Sam Ham did a few drafts of the script. And Ham's script also had the Penguin and Catwoman, but they were going after Hidden Treasure. So it wasn't like this. And Burton wasn't really interested in that. But he did like Daniel Waters, who wrote Heathers. And so he brought Waters on board to do Batman Returns.
00:26:07
Speaker
He had Waters do this rewrite and Waters came up with this kind of social satire with, you know, the evil mogul backing a mayor candidate and the whole idea of the penguin running for mayor actually came from the 60s TV show. There was a two-part episode says here, his honor the penguin and dishonor the penguin. Yeah, yeah, yep, exactly. This is like an updating of that, you know, classic,
00:26:37
Speaker
two-part episode. And what's interesting about it is, as you said, first of all, Tim Burton didn't want to do it. And they had to get Tim Burton, and Warner Brothers had to get Tim Burton because Michael Keaton said he wasn't going to do it unless Tim Burton did it. Yeah, right. Which is why we didn't get either one of them for
00:26:59
Speaker
the third movie Batman Forever because yeah, Michael Keaton, once he found out that Burton was out and Schumacher was in, he said, well, I'm out. Well, he gave it a chance. Like he met with Schumacher and heard what Schumacher was going to do and what the studio wanted to do. And then after that, he was like, no, I'm out.
00:27:14
Speaker
Yeah, he didn't think that he was good, which I can understand. And me, I'm a person I always admire and I respect loyalty. And his career certainly got a tremendous boost.
00:27:33
Speaker
from doing these two movies with Tim Burton. And I think that he felt that he owed it to Tim Burton to continue with him if he wanted to do it, and if he didn't, and just let those two movies stand alone, those two that they did stand alone, which I think was a wise move. I really do. I think it was a wise move on his part.
00:27:53
Speaker
Also, something else is that Billy Dee Williams, they originally were thinking about having him come back because Harvey Dent was in early drafts of the script. He was basically in the Max Shrek role. And then so that scene at the end when Catwoman kisses Shrek with the taser, that was originally supposed to be Harvey Dent. And that was supposed to be how he becomes Two-Face for the next and the third movie. Oh, okay. Interesting.
00:28:20
Speaker
Another early draft they were supposed to have, Max Shrek was supposed to be the penguin's brother, actually. So whereas Max Shrek was like the golden boy of the Cobblepot family, whereas Penguin was the deformed outsider. So that would have been something else that comes up later.
00:28:38
Speaker
Glad they left it just the way they did, because first of all, Max Shrek is a tremendously entertaining and interesting character on his own as Max Shrek. I mean, this is a character totally original. We've never seen him in any of the Batman comic books, anything like that. He was created for this movie. And Christopher Walken is obviously having the time of his life being a Batman villain.
00:29:01
Speaker
Oh, and he's so perfect in this. You can see he's having so much fun. Yeah, I mean he is, this is the first thing I ever saw Christopher walking in and like, like I said, when I was a little kid, that guy creeped the fuck out of me more than the penguin did. You know what the penguin, okay, the penguin to me is very problematic in this movie. He is, he really, first of all,
00:29:27
Speaker
You could tell that this is the character in the movie that Tim Burton is really interested in. Yeah. He's really not interested in any of the other characters as much as he is in The Penguin. And Danny DeVito, OK.
00:29:43
Speaker
OK, speaking of people that didn't want to do, Danny DeVito didn't want to do this at all. No. It was Jack Nicholson that talked them into it, finally. Right. You know, because they're good friends. And Jack Nicholson said, you know, finally said, listen, man, it's good money. Take the money. Go put your kid through school. You know, just that. And finally, that was the argument that persuaded Danny DeVito to do it because it's it's also the same argument he gave to Morgan Freeman when Morgan Freeman wasn't sure if he was going to accept or Batman Begins.
00:30:13
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, they should probably send Jack Nicholson a check or something for all the times he's convinced people to be in a Batman movie. Yeah, exactly. That's what it is. Because, you know, David DeVito had zero interest in doing this. And the character is...
00:30:32
Speaker
So far, you know me, I always say that when you take a character so far from the original concept, that it might as well be a brand new character, because this Penguin is, he's not really, at least not to me, he's not frightening, he's more disgusting and repulsive than anything else. Right. And you can tell that,
00:31:00
Speaker
Tim Burton is not really interested in Batman too much because in total he gets about like, what is it? Like 25 minutes of screen time in his own movie.
00:31:16
Speaker
Well, OK, well, I remind you, we see Batman at the beginning of the movie when the red circle gang, which is a red triangle, yeah, red triangle gang, which, which, and I believe you might have been the one that told me this. These are the guys that actually should have been the Joker's henchmen in the first movie. Yeah. Yeah. It's so weird that the Joker has these guys in leather jackets with his face on it, whereas the penguin gets the circus guys.
00:31:45
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. When ideally it should have been switched the other way around. Right. But, okay, so Batman, he drives into the, you know, the celebration that they're having and he rescues them
00:32:02
Speaker
from him and then he disappeared from the movie for about the next 10, 15 minutes or so. Yeah, we don't see him as Batman again for a while until after, like we see him again as Bruce Wayne. Yeah, we see him as Bruce Wayne, but we don't see Batman for a while. No, I don't think it's until after all this other stuff happens, like Selena Kyle becomes Catwoman, the Penguin and Shrek hatch their, hatch their plan for him to be mayor and to
00:32:26
Speaker
and to start causing chaos in the city. And then when they start going chaos, that's when Batman comes up again. Yeah, because most of what happens in between is he's developing a relationship with Selena Kyle, him and Max Shrek, you know, they're business rivals. So they go in that power plant scheme that I never, I still do. And I watched the movie last night and
00:32:53
Speaker
And I've seen this movie maybe about like a dozen times, and I still don't understand Max's power player scheme. No, I don't get it either. Yeah, but you know, so they're going back and forth with that. So yeah, it's a good while before we see Batman in action again. Yeah. And
00:33:13
Speaker
Now, that opening scene though, so first off, the movie opens with, that kind of tells you right in the first few minutes who this movie is really about because it opens on the Penguin's origin story. Yeah, bingo, there you go. And they spend more time, Tim Burton spends more time on the Penguin's origin story than he ever did on Batman's.
00:33:38
Speaker
I like to stick in a little thing here. When I saw this in the movie theater and people saw that it was Paul Rubens, AKA Pee Wee Herman playing the penguin's father, people actually cheered and applauded. Do you know who's originally supposed to play that role though? Who? Take a guess. Who else would have been perfect for that role at that time? I have Jim Nabors? No, Burgess Meredith.
00:34:05
Speaker
Oh, was he still alive then? Yeah, yeah, he was still alive then. Oh, okay. See, I had no idea. I had just assumed that by the time this movie was made, he had passed away. No, no, he died in 97. Okay. But yeah, he was signed out, he was asked to play the part and he was going to do it, but he got sick and he had to drop out. So then, you know, Burton went to his old pal, Paul Rubens, and asked him to do it instead.
00:34:31
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And when you start up on screen, like I said, when I was in there, people would go, oh, Pee Wee, Pee Wee. That's an old one. Well, also his, what is it? Diane Salinger, she played the mother. And she was also in Pee Wee's Big Adventure. Yeah, yeah.
00:34:53
Speaker
So again, which also, you know, Tim Burton directed that movie, which a lot of people might not realize. Again, you got people that are loyal to you. You can ask them for a favor. You can say, hey, listen, can you come and step in and do that? And they say, yeah, bam. And you know, they're there. Yeah. Yeah. So but yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, you know, we we start with the movie.
00:35:17
Speaker
the origin of the penguin. We don't start a Batman movie with Batman. We started with a side character. But as I said, you watch this movie and you realize that it's the villains that really interest Tim Burton. It's not the hero.
00:35:37
Speaker
Yeah. And then, um, said the, the, the red trial, the circus gang attacks and, you know, commissioner Gordon arrives, why the police commissioner is riding around in squad cars, I don't know, but, but he arrives on the scene and he, you know, he calls over the radio, you know, you know, what are you waiting for? The signal. And then, and in one of the coolest moments in the movie,
00:35:57
Speaker
You know, you see Bruce Wayne sitting in Wayne Manor all alone and then the signal flashed in the sky and there are these reflective panels that turn to cast the signal over him and he stands up and it's such a cool scene, but when you think about it, it's really impractical.
00:36:14
Speaker
It is. It's kind of impractical. And also, you know what, it's kind of depressing because, you know, I mean, the poor guy is just sitting alone in his dark house, just brooding. That's all he, you know, is that like, he's not even watching TV. No. If he was at least like, okay, watching TV, or if it was me directing it, he'd be in the Batcave, you know, working or, or exercising or something like that. And then those panels,
00:36:44
Speaker
That's what would send the signal down to the Batcave because of course if he's in the Batcave, he can't see the Bat signal. Right, right. I don't think too about that. Sorry, go ahead. No, I'm saying that, you know, it's impractical because if you're sitting upstairs, of course you can see the Bat signal. And also, you know, what did he say to the guys who installed those miniature Bat signals in this place?
00:37:07
Speaker
Well, okay, see, this is what I keep saying. You know, you make fun of me when I talk about, what was it, The Dark Knight? No, I don't make fun of you. I was agreeing with you on that. Oh, yeah, that movie where he has the giant
00:37:22
Speaker
Lucite cubes come up from underwater. I would really like to have been there when he was explaining to the workmen, well Mr. Wayne, could you explain it to me again why you need giant lucite cubes to be hydraulically lifted up out of the waterfall? Is this a weird sex thing that I don't know?
00:37:47
Speaker
You know, I think that question can be answered with another zero. Yeah, exactly. The same thing with the guys who are installing these reflective panels. Mr. Wayne, why do you need a miniature bat signal on your roof and then another reflective panel to reflect that bat signal?
00:38:10
Speaker
right over your lone chair in your massive library where there's no table or reading table or anything? Yeah. Could you like kind of like clue me in on what this is all about? It's a sex thing. Right. See, that's why I said if he was in the Batcave,
00:38:28
Speaker
it would have made more sense why he had those panels and that would send the bat signal down into you know the bat cave where he would see it but if you're sitting but if you sit and he's got huge honking windows in that thing so if you're so if you're upstairs you're going to see the bat signal however
00:38:48
Speaker
We should not let logic get in the way of spoiling, which is one of the most iconic scenes in any Batman movie. Yeah. Now, if you're a Bat fan, you just get chills singing that. Yeah. I mean, like I said, it's an awesome scene. Like, it looks awesome. And it's such a good introduction to the character. It's just, like, within the story, it doesn't make any sense. But it still looks awesome. But it gets you by...
00:39:16
Speaker
you know, you're bat nuts. Right. Exactly. Really. It does. It's emotional. It grabs you. And that's the main thing. Because, like I said, I was watching last night, and I've seen it a dozen times. I still get chills when that bad signal comes flashing there, and he stands up. And I said, aw, shit. Shit just got real. Yeah.
00:39:37
Speaker
And so then he goes, you know, I love how he just, he plays it completely silent. Like even when he's talking to Selena, like, and she's like thanking him and everything, and she's trying, she's like stammering, and he just stands there looking at her, and then he just turns away.
00:39:55
Speaker
I like that because he's establishing Batman doesn't talk unless he has to. And you know, even in the first movie, he didn't do a lot of talking as Batman. No, no, he didn't. You know, he's not chatty. You know, Commissioner Gordon asks him something and he gives him like a one word answer.
00:40:12
Speaker
Right and then you notice the mayor I remember noticing this when you know he comes in and he says uh he's like thanks for your help Batman he's like trying to have a conversation with him and Batman just like so brusque and he's like I don't want to talk to you type of thing yeah and then the mayor comes up and he tries to join in the conversation and he and Batman just keeps walking. Yeah he walks away I only talk to a Batman yeah yeah and yeah and that he goes back to when
00:40:38
Speaker
He pulls up in the Batmobile, and it opens up. And he's walking towards Selena Kyle because one of the gang members, he has a. And he's just like knocking guys out of his way without even looking at. Right, yeah. You know, he's very, as of, he's very disdainful of them. You know, they're beneath his notice. I like the body language.
00:40:59
Speaker
Yeah, because since he can't, since Michael Keaton has said in the past how cumbersome that suit was and he couldn't move, I like how he developed that body language for Batman when he, you know, he's just knocking these guys out of his way as if they're beneath him. Yes, and not only is it the suit but also, you know, Tim Burton, you know, even though he's good at a lot of things,
00:41:21
Speaker
Action scenes ain't one of them. Oh, he's terrible when it comes to action scenes. So he cannot direct an action scene to save his life. There isn't one noteworthy action scene in this movie. Much as I love this movie, as much as I love the first one, there isn't a noteworthy action scene in any of these two Batman movies. Because Tim Burton is not an action director. If you've ever seen Planet of the Apes,
00:41:46
Speaker
You know, the winner he did? Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember that. That's like the worst action movie I've ever seen in my life. I remember seeing that on my birthday. That was a really depressing birthday. Oh. Patricia and I saw it in Florida. We almost got thrown out of the movie theater. Really? Yeah, because we were making so much fun of the movie.
00:42:04
Speaker
Yeah, we almost got thrown out and people are complaining and the man educated the system and said, Listen, y'all gotta calm down. And Patricia Patricia was the one that said you shouldn't show some shitty movies. Whoa. That's why I love you.
00:42:20
Speaker
No, because usually she's very, you know, she's the one calming me down. Right, right, yeah. She, you know, be quiet, you know, go, yeah, but it's a terrible movie. I know, I know, I know. She was the one told right there, she said, you shouldn't show such shitty movies there. By the way, you know, just as a brief digression, what the fuck was that with the Abe Lincoln statue, with the Abe Lincoln monkey statue at the end?
00:42:47
Speaker
Oh, please. I, you know, it was it was Burton's misguided attempt to do the same thing as the original planet of the apes. But just like
00:43:00
Speaker
You ever seen the Bugs Bunny cartoon where Daffy Duck and Bugs Bunny, they're on stage and they're doing a show and they're trying to outdo each other. And finally Daffy Duck, he drinks gasoline and gunpowder and nitroglycerin and he blows himself up. And the audience goes crazy and everything like that. And Bugs said, wow, Daffy, that was terrific. They want you to do it again. And Daffy, his ghost is going up to him and he said, yeah, I can only do that shit once. Yeah. OK.
00:43:29
Speaker
The original Planet of the Apes, where Charlton Heston comes and he sees the statue of, he sees the half of the, you know, the, what you call it, the statue? Statue of Liberty. Statue of Liberty, right, thank you. He sees the half of it that's laying on the side and he realizes that he's come back to Earth. Okay, it's like the Daffy Duck blowing himself up there. You can only do that once. Yeah.
00:43:54
Speaker
You can't do that again. Which is why the new movies have been smart in that they decided to make prequels and show how it became the plan of the age. Exactly. They wisely decided that, you know what, we got to go another way because there is no way you can duplicate the impact of seeing that. Right. And a big part of that movie, why that movie stands the test of time, is because of that ending scene.
00:44:22
Speaker
Exactly. You can't do... There's no way that you can do that again. But apparently nobody told Tim Burton this, or whoever wrote that movie, I have no idea because most of that movie, I blotted it out of my memory anyway, because it was so bad. And actually, again, I only blame Tim Burton
00:44:45
Speaker
because I think that what it was, he was trying to step out of his comfort zone and try to prove that he could do a mainstream action movie. And as that movie so woefully proved, he cannot. No, no.
00:45:04
Speaker
And ever since then, Tim Burton has stuck to his strengths as a director, which are considerable, mind you. I love Tim Burton. I recommend these movies. Anybody tell me, well, is he one of your favorite directors? Absolutely. But the man cannot direct action. Right. So back to this movie. When Shrek gets away and then he falls in, now, the first time we see the Penguin. Now, even though DeVito did not want to do this movie, he commits to this role.
00:45:34
Speaker
Oh yeah, yeah. All the performances in this movie are amazing. In fact, this may be, I think I'm gonna go out and live and say it, this may be the best active of all the Batman movies. I know what, I wouldn't disagree with you there. All of the performances in here are very strong, even though I don't care for this version of the Penguin. No, I don't either. I agree with you 100%. The Dito, the Dito.
00:46:03
Speaker
He commits. He's not phoning this in. The man earned his money. Exactly, yeah. You know, whatever they paid him for, he earned it. And I agree with you. Like, I do not like this version of the penguin. I don't like him as this mutant bird man who lives in the sewers. I think he's far more interesting as, you know, this guy from old Gotham money who's, like, you know, fallen on hard times and has to turn to crime. I think he's much more interesting than that. Yeah, yeah. I think he's much more interesting this way.
00:46:31
Speaker
He's also kind of a transition for Gotham itself that way because he's like considered part of Batman's rogue galleries which the the mob and all the regular criminals refer to as the freaks and but he's also got one foot in the old Gotham crime wall too. Yeah well that's it he's kind of like
00:46:50
Speaker
you know the bridge between the old and the new because the Gotham's crime hierarchy falls into you know okay we had like the old style you know mustache piece that used to run Gotham cities and I and I guess presumably like the 30s 40s 50s and 60s
00:47:07
Speaker
And then over time, represented by the Joker, I guess when, okay, when he comes along, then that's when we start to get the rise of the freaks and the supervillains. And they take over as a crime lawyer. But the Penguin, he's, like you say, he's in the middle. He, you know, and also like Batman, he's part of that aristocracy of Gotham.
00:47:32
Speaker
you know, which again, as you said, makes him a very interesting character right then and there. Because in a lot of ways, that makes him like the anti-Batman. In fact, he should, I really think for a Batman origin story, and hopefully, I think this is what the Batman is trying to do, you know, the Matt Reeves movie. Because they've got, the Penguin is going to be, you know, is one of the villains in that movie. And it's a set in Batman's early days. So I think they're trying to do something like that.
00:48:00
Speaker
Which makes total sense. And also, he's played by Colin Farrell. Right, yeah. Who's a good-looking guy. Which I'm really interested to see how they're going to spend that. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, he's good. I can't wait to see him with the top hat and, I mean, the monocle and everything like that. But I think that that's probably what they're going to play off of, that he's part of that aristocracy of old Gotham. You know, like, Bruce Wayne. And they both come from that old money.
00:48:28
Speaker
Well, especially because they've also got Carmine Falcone is also going to be in it. They've got John Turturro, I believe, is playing him. Right. And did you? I was blown away when I found out about this the other way. But did you know that Andy Serkis is going to be playing Alfred in that?
00:48:44
Speaker
I did not know that. Yeah, I had stolen across this article like a few weeks ago, and I'm like, oh my god, Andy Serkis is going to be playing Alfred? How do we not know this? I have no clue. And then I look at the date of the article, and it's March. I'm like, where the fuck have I been? Really? Yeah, and even more, he directed the second Venom movie. Now, that's that movie. See, I didn't know that either.
00:49:10
Speaker
Okay, that I know. I knew he was directing, which kind of made it, which I said, that's an unusual directorial choice. But it makes so much sense because he works so much with stop motion. He knows, he really knows how to, he's, he's done so much work with stop motion. You know, he's like the go-to guy. So in a, or like not stop motion, CGI. So when you're doing a really CGI heavy movie like Venom and you're going to have Venom and Carnage going at it, it makes sense to have someone like Andy Serkis direct them because he knows what they're supposed to be doing.
00:49:40
Speaker
Yeah. But as far as that Alfred thing go, I said, wait a minute, how have I, how, my mind was, my fuse is all blue. Because I was like, you, where have I been? Yeah. And I did not know this. And he's going to be awesome in that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But see that, but see, like,
00:50:03
Speaker
The whole thing that they got said, and once I heard that Colin Farrell was going to be playing the penguin, I said, okay, they're definitely going to go for a different way with that because
00:50:15
Speaker
Okay, here's my thing. And we've had this discussion many times before about the TV series, Gotham, about how they screwed up. Because the Gotham TV series, that's ideally what it should have been about. It should have been about that period when it was the crime lords and the gangsters and the mustache peeps were running Gotham. Right.
00:50:36
Speaker
not you know not the freaks because that comes later on right and you have the freaks before batman it undermines the whole because one of the one of the big things about batman is you know is he is he bad for gotham like is he encouraging
00:50:52
Speaker
these kinds of freaks to come out. Right yeah because they didn't because they didn't pop up until Batman came. Right so if you have them coming up before Batman that undermines that whole thing. Exactly that just throws that whole idea which to me is not a good thing because
00:51:11
Speaker
there should always be that element of that, okay, well, is Batman creating, you know, is he actually creating these crazy people that put on costume? Right, is the cure worse than the disease? Yeah, yeah, you need to have that. And yeah, and that's why I was never a fan of the Gotham TV series. Matter of fact, I wasn't a fan of it when at the end of the first episode, they didn't,
00:51:39
Speaker
shovel Bruce Wayne off someplace. Yeah. Because what should have happened? Okay, we have the Waynes get killed, then Bruce Wayne should have left, and we should not have seen Bruce Wayne until the last season. Right, exactly. When he comes back. Yeah. Yeah. And we definitely shouldn't have gotten him in that terrible Batman costume.
00:51:58
Speaker
The whole series should have been about James Gordon. Just James Gordon dealing with the corruption and crime in Gotham City. That's what the show should have been about. It shouldn't have been about the adventures of young Bruce Wayne. But it's like, it has the smallville syndrome, right? Where they want to do a superhero show, but they don't want to do a superhero show. Right. And which, you know, either shit or get off the pot. Exactly. Yeah.
00:52:24
Speaker
either commit or, you know, don't do it. Right. Which is what, you know, the CW shows realized early on, because, you know, as we've said before, Arrow was kind of like that in its first season, where it's like, oh, we're not really a superhero show. Yeah, you are. Yeah, you are. And then after, then in the second season, they're like, okay, yeah, you know, we're a superhero show now. They just fully embraced it from that point on.
00:52:45
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, because I think, wait a minute. And I distinctly remember me and you would go to other, I think me and you were doing this shit when they had the balloon man. Yeah. We hung in there till after that. And that's like the third episode. The third episode you jumped the shark. And I'm like, what the fuck is this? I was like, what is this shit?
00:53:10
Speaker
Oh, Lord have mercy. Now, back to a good version of Batman. Back to Batman Returns, okay. But the interaction between Penguin and Shrek, like, you know, Walk-In and DeVito are so good on screen together.
00:53:29
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they make such great villas in this one. They make a great pair. I like how the fact that when he first meets the penguin, he's not scared, he's not intimidated. He's like mildly curious as the... Yeah, yeah, yeah. He said, well, who is this guy? He said, oh, this is the penguin. This is the penguin man. He's okay.
00:53:54
Speaker
And I love how he keeps trying to play like he's in PR mode the whole time. Yeah. He's like, he's like, he's like, Oh, I think that's unfair. He's like, you know, I'm a businessman, you know, tough. Yeah, shrewd. Okay. But I am not, uh, you know, but I'm not evil or anything like that. And he's like, yeah, yeah. He takes out the hand of his partner. Yeah. And, and like I said, nothing fazes him. Like,
00:54:16
Speaker
Everything that the Penguin comes back with, he said, OK, well, I got your papers. That's everything. Well, I don't know what those are. You could have got those from anywhere. He's got the vial of toxic fluid, anything like that. Oh, well, listen, again, that could have come from anywhere. If I knew this was going on, I would have took care of it. And I like how he always is in a businessman mode when the Penguin proposes that they have an alliance. He says, OK, well, what's in it for me? Right, yeah, yeah.
00:54:44
Speaker
you know, well, why should I help you? You know, what's in it for me? I love that, you know, that Mac Shrek is a guy that's never out of control. No, no. And that actually, that brings us to the scene where she goes to where he finds Selena in his office. And now this is, now that the lead up to him pushing her out the window, that's, again, this is the kind of stuff that Burton is good at.
00:55:12
Speaker
Like there's this, this slow buildup and everything and, and just like, and Pfeiffer and Walken are great actors. So they're, they're really selling these emotions like, and, and then they break the tension in that last minute when he, when he makes the joke about it. And Selena has like this relief come over her and then he just shoves her out the window. Like that was so shocking to me when I saw it.
00:55:35
Speaker
ironically, considering who she turns into, they're playing cat and mouse. Yeah. Oh, that's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're playing cat. Because he knows what she's read. And he knows that he knows. And he knows that she knows that she knows. He says, well, what did you read? She says, well, the thing with the power plant. And well, it's really technical and I really don't understand it. But it's kind of like if I had to tell it to somebody, it seems like he said, well, who would you tell it to?
00:56:03
Speaker
And he's so calm and rational, and she's giving them these side long looks. And yeah, they're playing cat and mouse. Yeah, oh, that's such a good point. I didn't even think about it that way. Yeah, it's a delightful scene, the way they play it. Because she's scared as shit, because she don't know how he's going to react. And he's just like, and he's very calm. Yeah, yeah. Really?
00:56:23
Speaker
He said, oh, how did you get into my computer? She said, well, I. And then she's so nervous, she incriminates herself. Yeah. Right. I even broke into the secured files. Like, wait, wait, you broke into the secure files. Yeah. Why would you tell him that? Yeah.
00:56:42
Speaker
Oh, of course, now you're gonna tell your boss that you know how to get into his, you know, that you broke into his computer where he keeps all this personal shit. Way to go, sister. No wonder you got pushed out a window. And then, you know, now this, I think, gets the award for the dumbest scene in the movie after she gets pushed out the window when the cats come and resurrect her. Oh, yeah, please. I mean, even to this day, I've seen this movie so many times, this scene always makes me roll my eyes.
00:57:11
Speaker
I always get up and I go get more snacks or something to drink or more booze when it comes on. Yeah, because it's so stupid. And I can't be sure of, but I think that Batman Returns probably started the whole trope that
00:57:33
Speaker
As soon as you put on a costume, all of a sudden you get the ability to be an Olympic level gymnast and acrobat. Right. Because Selena Kyle, we are never told, the only thing we're, the only thing athletic that we are informed of that she does is that she plays racquetball.
00:57:51
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Because she makes reference to it when a boyfriend, he's supposed to take her away for a weekend and he doesn't go and she says something, my gosh, I should have let him win that last game of racquetball. Right. But we don't see like pictures of her like fencing or maybe she was a gymnast in college. Right. No like gymnastics trophies or anything like that.
00:58:13
Speaker
Right, nothing like that. But as soon as she puts on the costume, now she's able to, you know, do martial arts and, you know, jump around on rooftops and go toe-to-toe with Batman. Right. I think the reason for that is, I think the implication there is that she gained, like, you know, kind of like a Spider-Man thing when the cats brought her back to life, which I still can't believe I'm saying that. Yeah. That she gained, like, cat-like superpowers is, I think, the implication that we're getting there.
00:58:41
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, yeah, that's definitely an implication. But then, but then again, that's a problem because now you're introducing a mystical element into Batman's world. Yeah. And it doesn't and it's not like a Rachelle Ghoul element. Like this one just does not fit at all. It does. Exactly. It does not fit at all.
00:59:00
Speaker
And it's such a disservice to that character, too, because Catwoman is a really interesting and complex character in her own right. So to strip that away from her for, you know, just because Tim Burton wanted more weirdness in the movie was a disservice. Well, much like, okay, much like the Penguin, this character is Selena Collin, name only. Right. For all intents and purposes, this is a brand new character. Right. And it is.
00:59:27
Speaker
You know, I guess because he didn't want to take the time to set up a proper origin that we knew for Selena Kyle. I think it's just because he wanted more weird shit in his movie because Tim Burton loves weird shit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:59:46
Speaker
So I go along that 100% because yeah, yeah. And now we're talking about, now so much of this movie is about the performances. Like even the story itself, like I'm not really, I never really care much about the story when I'm watching this movie, but I love these performances. And a perfect example of that is the, we mentioned it before, but that Bruce Wayne, Max Shrek meeting. Oh yeah. Yeah. I love that. And this is where,
01:00:13
Speaker
And this is the thing I love about Keaton's Bruce Wayne, is that he always plays it very kind of aloof and very kind of like absent-minded. Like in the first movie when, you know, Vicki Vale asked him where Bruce Wayne is and he says, well, I'm not sure. And then later he walks in and he follows them into that room of statues or whatever. And then, and they're like, well, where's this one come from? And Bruce Wayne is like, oh, it's Japanese. Like, how do you know that? Because I bought it in Japan. And they said, oh.
01:00:43
Speaker
You bought it. Yeah. He's like, oh, yeah, I'm Bruce Wayne, by the way. Yeah, and he says, I'm Bruce Wayne. And there's something, I don't know, there's something about the way he says, well, I'm Bruce Wayne. You buy it 100%. But I love that scene where he's just following them, and he's just listening to their comments, and everything like that. Yeah, and it's a kind of aloof absent-mindedness.
01:01:06
Speaker
Yeah. And the brilliant thing about Keaton's performance as Bruce Wayne is that you don't know if that's really him as Bruce Wayne, if that's really how Bruce Wayne is, or if he's just pretending to throw people off. Well, here's the thing. I think here's where we see it. It's him just pretending, because when he goes into that meeting with Shrek, you can tell, like, Shrek kind of feels like he knows how to play this guy. He's like, oh, this is a billionaire with the trust fund. I can con him into giving me what I want.
01:01:35
Speaker
Right? And he's like, I con, you know, I con the penguin out of, um, into doing what I want. And then, but, and then he tells, but then Bruce Wayne comes in there, like, ready for war. Yeah. And you can tell he's all about zero bullshit. Yeah. Now. Yeah.
01:01:55
Speaker
This is not him, you know, being absent-minded. He's come prepared. Right. And he even throws shade at him and Shrek, too. He's like, right? He's like, well, I don't have a boss like Cobblepot in my corner. Yeah. And, you know, for the first time, Shrek gets rattled.
01:02:15
Speaker
Oh, yeah. You come in here with your silver spoon in your mouth and everything. I came up the hard way. He started throwing that shit at him. I came up the hard way. I said, uh-oh. And got to him. And Bruce is just sitting there like, I don't give a shit. Yeah. Yeah. But you can tell he got to him. Any time anybody starts got to pull out that they came up the hard way,
01:02:41
Speaker
Yeah and you got to him. And then when Selena walks in and you know and um and you know and Bruce switches like it's like it's like a switch and I'm not like this is worth I'm not sure if he's slipping back into you know Bruce Wayne absent-minded billionaire role or if he's really star struck by Selena. Yeah exactly yeah it's like
01:03:07
Speaker
That's what I said, that's why I love his performance, because you don't know if, just because he's around it, he's just naturally slipping back into that absent-minded role that he plays. And again, like this, and like you said, this is kind of like the cat and mouse scene earlier, this is kind of like a reverse of that, because she's taking control of the whole conversation. Right, right. It's a total reversal, because Max is shocked to tell the CEO. Yeah.
01:03:35
Speaker
But he's, but see being Max, he, you know, he's KG and he's, you know, he's evaluating seeing which way she's going to go. Right. And even tries to like lead her out a little bit. He's like, he's like, did you injure yourself on that ski slope? And she's just like, and she's like, it's a blur. And she's just kind of like, and she's, she's playing with him just in the same way he played with her. Yeah. It's a reversal of that cat and mouse scene earlier, but now she most definitely is the cat. Yeah. Yeah.
01:04:06
Speaker
And also when she walks Bruce to the elevator and, you know, they had the little exchange and, and she says like, I'm tempted. He's like, he's like, I could free up some time. And, and, uh, but then she's like, she's like, I'm working and the elevator doors closed. And he's like, I'm leaving. He says, I'm leaving. He said, wait a minute. You forgot to press them. Oh man. Keaton is so good at this. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, okay. Um,
01:04:35
Speaker
And I've got to talk a little bit more about Michelle Pfeiffer's performance in detail, because even though she is not the catwoman we know from the comics, she's so good in this movie. She's amazing. Well, like everybody else in this movie, she commits to the role 100%. And she plays the... Okay, out of any character in this movie, even including
01:05:05
Speaker
Even including Max Shrek or the Penguin, she's the one I think has the most complete character arc from start to finish. Yeah, definitely. Because we see her transformation from the mousy, you know, we get the impression that she's very put upon, she's very shy, she's good at her job, but she's insecure. We get the hint she's got a dominating mother.
01:05:32
Speaker
She's not successful in her relationships. As a matter of fact, the only thing that she is good at is her job. And when she's thrown out that window and she is brought back to life, she gains confidence. She gains self-respect. She gains all of these things that she didn't have before. She's determined not to be used by anybody. But then she ends up being used anyway.
01:06:02
Speaker
Yeah, well, that's the tragedy of this character. Unlike any other character, not even the Penguin has the tragedy of her character. No, no. Because, yeah, she ends up getting used again, despite all of her best efforts not to be used. And then, again, here's the tragedy. She finds love, but she can't accept. She won't accept it. Right. From Bruce Wayne. She won't. She actually refuses it.
01:06:31
Speaker
There's that really great scene where they're at the dance ball, the costume ball. Well, first off, that's also amazing, the fact that everyone else is wearing masks except for them. Except for them. Because not wearing the mask is wearing a mask for them. Yeah, exactly. A lot of people don't pick up on that, but everybody else in that ball around them is wearing masks except for them. Yeah.
01:06:57
Speaker
And it's because when they're putting on the masks, that's where they really are. When they take off their masks and they go to things like this and they pretend to be normal, that is the mask they're wearing. And as a matter of fact, you know what? Every conversation that Bruce and Selena have in there, because they even have a conversation about duality, every conversation that they have in this movie is really good. Yeah. Because you know what? They are both sensing the darkness in each other.
01:07:24
Speaker
really and while they can't come out and like
01:07:29
Speaker
speak it, they can sense it, and that's what attracts them to each other. Right. That sense that he is a kindred spirit who, if I just open up to it, that's why Bruce just yanks off the mask at the end, because he doesn't give a shit anymore. Right, right. He's, you know, he yanks it off in front of, you know, Shrek, who's, he always cracks me up with that. Bruce, why are you, why are you dressed up as Batman?
01:07:56
Speaker
Well, this is also one of those things I point to, where it's not just the math. So when people are like, well, Clark Kent can't be Superman. I'm like, look, if Clark Kent was wearing a Superman, walked into the Daily Planet one day, wearing a Superman t-shirt, but he was still in his posture and everything and is speaking in that higher voice, everyone would be like, Clark, why are you wearing a Superman shirt?
01:08:16
Speaker
Right, exactly. Everybody would do that. But yeah, but that's why he yanks it off, because you know, at that point he doesn't care he you know he just wants to let her know you're not alone. Right. I'm not you know I understand you perfectly. Yeah, exactly. And you know.
01:08:35
Speaker
Unfortunately, it is not to be. It is the classic doom romance. And I think that if anything carries over from the original Selena Kyle that we all know to this one is that aspect, that her and Batman, they have a doom relationship. Right. As much as they love each other, they really can't ever really be together. Right. Right.
01:09:00
Speaker
And this is the only movie to date that's really touched upon that. Like, there was hints of it in Batman 66, but of course that was, you know, that was because he thought she was someone else. Yeah. And then, and again, and then in, what was it, The Dark Knight Rises, they actually have a happily ever after ending. Yeah, yeah, they do give them a happily ever after. Right. But this movie, you're right, it does drive home that theme that, you know, they love each other, but they can never be together.
01:09:30
Speaker
Yeah, that's the whole thing. It's the classic doom romance, which I don't mind. Batman, horny devil that he is, he should have doom romances. He should. Yeah, because he's Batman. He can't ever really be with anybody.
01:09:50
Speaker
Right, right. That's not, that's not for him. You know, I can never imagine a Bruce Wayne, like in his 70s, with his feet up by the fire, reading a newspaper and kids and grandkids come to visit him and stuff like that. No, that's not him. No, that's why, that's why Batman Begins showed like the perfect outcome for him, where he's, you know, he's a bitter old man, lonely old man. Yeah, exactly. That's what he is. Yeah. And let's see what else I want to talk about.
01:10:20
Speaker
Oh, you know, I want to talk about it, talk about some of the stuff that was left out of this movie. So before I get to that, though, the way that like, this is the movie that actually shows that more, I think more than any other movie, this this movie illustrates Batman as as as a strategic thinker.
01:10:41
Speaker
Oh, I love the scene. And mind you, people always leave this out when they're talking about the Burton movies. But the Burton movies, I like them because they actually show Batman as a detective. They show him working in the Batcave when he's figuring out the thing about the penguin. Right, yeah. He's looking through the records, the newspapers. He's doing his research. And then when he goes up to City Hall while the penguins in there are making his list,
01:11:06
Speaker
and you know Batman's in the Batmobile and you know Alfred calls him he's like what he he's like why are you why are you obsessing over him and he's like he's like i think he's lying he's like i think he knows who his parents are and he knows that there's something off about this guy yeah yeah because he's done his homework he's done his research anything like that and
01:11:25
Speaker
Batman had fallen into the syndrome now where he just, it's all about superior firepower. Right. You know, he's got, you know, these powered suits of armor and he's got Batmobiles that are like tanks and stuff like that.
01:11:40
Speaker
The one thing I like about the Tim Burton films is that we do actively see Batman when he's sitting in the back cave. And he's putting clues together. There's a part where Alfred, he brings in the file. And he said, OK, well, here's the file. He's going through the file with Jack Napier. And he's looking. And he said, OK, he's got an aptitude in chemistry and everything like that. And Michael Keaton, one reason I love him, among others I love him, is that he's a guy you can see him thinking.
01:12:10
Speaker
Yeah. You look at them and you say, yeah, there's a brain at work here. Yeah, exactly. Which I think is absolutely necessary for a character like Batman, who, like you say, is a strategic guy. You know, he's always thinking. And then he brings down the penguin, not by, you know, beating him up or anything like that, but by playing that audio.
01:12:37
Speaker
Oh yeah, he does a scratching thing, yeah. Yeah, that's how he brings them down. And then I love the penguin's line of that. He's like, why does someone always bring eggs and tomatoes to a speech? Yeah, but he said, you know, because he realizes that the way to defeat the penguin is not for him to beat him up, but for the people of Gotham to reject him.
01:13:01
Speaker
Right. He has to show the people of Gotham what he really is. And he does that. And when he does that, yeah, they do his job for him. So now all that's left for him to do is bring him in. And this is where we get, when people talk about this movie, this is what they talk about. They talk about the scene with the rocket firing penguins. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:13:31
Speaker
As crazy as Schumacher's movies were, I mean, like you gotta, there was some precedent for that with when you start having rocket launching penguins. Well, I mean, you know, listen, if you're gonna have the penguin, why not have rocket
Penguin's Schemes & Batman References
01:13:45
Speaker
launch? And because at this point, it's like one scheme after another,
01:13:51
Speaker
The Penguin has had, what, about like three or four schemes in this movie that don't work. Yeah, yeah. Mind you. He's got the first one where, you know, him, he's hooking up with Max Shrek and they're going to make a mayor. Then he kidnaps all of the kids.
01:14:06
Speaker
He's going to hold him for ransom. That doesn't work. So now he says, OK, well, you know what? I'm just going to blow up Gotham with these rocket-firing penguins, which I might add is one of my favorite things that I like in Justice League when the Ben Affleck Batman and the Jeremy Irons Alfred actually make reference to this incident.
01:14:28
Speaker
Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. You know, they talk, but they say, remember the good old days when all we had to worry about was rocket fire and penguins?
01:14:42
Speaker
Oh, and I remember they started to up the toy quotient in this movie. And this is also kind of like part of this movie, they took inspiration for in The Dark Knight because when the Batmobile is going crazy and it splits apart into that bat missile thing to go through the narrow alleyway, and then something similar happens in The Dark Knight.
01:15:09
Speaker
Oh, yeah, right. When the bat pod ejects out of the batmobile. Yeah, the bat pod, yeah. And then you get the bat ski boat that he uses to twitch. Only Batman would think, you know what, I got to build a vehicle in case I ever have to travel through the sewers really fucking fast. Oh, and when that thing showed up, everybody in the audience would just say, whoa, what the hell is this?
01:15:35
Speaker
Like you said, only Batman would say, yeah, I need a ski boat to travel through the sewers. But you know what? It's so cool we go along with it. Right, yeah, yeah. You know, it's just so cool that we go along. We shouldn't mention that we should take a little time before we go on to anything else. And that because
01:15:59
Speaker
You and I always get into arguments with people about the Joel Schumacher movies and why there was such a great disconnect between the Tim Burton movies and the Joel Schumacher movies.
Schumacher's Vision vs. Studio Demands
01:16:12
Speaker
First of all, I would like to say to people that, okay, Joel Schumacher, when he was brought on,
01:16:24
Speaker
as a director when it, okay, the decision, you know, Tim Burton said, okay, well, I don't want to do it anymore. And Joe Schumacher was brought in. Joe Schumacher actually wanted to do Batman year one.
01:16:35
Speaker
Right. Unlike Tim Burton, Joel Schumacher actually was a fan of the Batman comic books. Exactly. Yeah. He was a dedicated fan of them, and he wanted to do a serious version, a straight, serious version. Like I said, he wanted to do Batman year one.
01:16:56
Speaker
That was shut down by the suits at Warner Brothers, who did not want a totally serious version of Batman because of Batman Returns. Right.
01:17:09
Speaker
Because now, I didn't see this myself, and I don't know anybody else who had, but reportedly, there were kids that had to be taken out of the theater because the Danny DeVito penguin frightened them. Well, actually, because I was a kid, I have very vivid memories of watching this.
01:17:29
Speaker
Okay. When the Red Triangle Gang first appears in Gotham City and there's this one guy that he's wearing like this big skull mask. Yeah, you know, green eyes. Right, it freaked me out. And I almost wanted to leave, but I'm like, no, I want to watch the rest of this movie. So I stuck it over. But yeah, I could see like kids being scared and like having to be taken out of the movie. Well, that was the whole thing. The consensus of the suits at Warner Brothers that this movie was too dark,
01:17:58
Speaker
to depressing. Well, I mean, they spent the entire like six months leading up to this, building it as a family friendly kids movie. Yeah, well, exactly. There you go. So you had a lot of
01:18:12
Speaker
people taking their kids to see this movie. And of course, you get scenes like Michelle Pfeiffer grabbing Michael Keaton's crotch while they're in costume and they're on the rooftop. And of course, the whole psychosexual thing that goes along with that. And then you got Danny DeVito biting off people's noses and eating raw fish. Oh, and making crude sexual remarks all the time. Like that scene where he's like, you know, and he's like, I'd like to fill her void.
01:18:42
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, and dribbling black bile and even like that. And Shrek mentioned like one of the benefits of being mayor is you get unlimited Poon Tang. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
01:18:57
Speaker
Let's put it this way. This wasn't the movie that Warner Brothers had signed on to get. So Joel Schumacher was brought on board to do a completely different... This is what they asked him to do. They said, well, Joel, we appreciate that that's what you want to do, but that's not what we want. This is what we want. Now,
01:19:19
Speaker
Here's the argument I always get into people when they say, well, Joe Schumacher, he should acquit, he should acquit. Well, why should he acquit? Artistic integrity. Why is it that people who know nothing about being an artist are always the ones that screaming about artistic integrity? Right.
01:19:39
Speaker
agreed to do the movie that they wanted to do. That's all he did. It's like if you go to work for McDonald's, McDonald's shows you how they want you to make a Big Mac, right? They're not interested in how Perry wants to make a Big Mac. Exactly, right. You make a Big Mac the way they want. That's what Warner Brothers did. They said, this is the Batman movie we want you to make. We want you to make a Batman movie where we can sell a lot of toys and happy meals.
01:20:06
Speaker
right and that's what he gave them now could we have done without the bat nipples there's a lot of things we could have done like you know you're right you're just
01:20:18
Speaker
Your defensive Schumacher makes total sense, and you're absolutely right. That doesn't excuse the flaws in the movie, because the studio should never have asked for that kind of movie to begin with. Exactly. I am not defending the flaws in the movie. All I'm just saying is that I really get sick and tired of Joel Schumacher really getting hammered. And people hammered him for the back. Neglecting the fact that this guy was an extraordinarily talented filmmaker that made
01:20:46
Speaker
dozens of great movies. I can go back to the 1970s when he did, he wrote screenplay for Car Wash. And as far as I'm concerned, that's pretty fly for a white guy. Any white guy that wrote the screenplay for Car Wash, he's all right with me. Okay, so here's something else about him.
01:21:06
Speaker
And now he once claimed, because he was an openly gay director, right? He once claimed, do you know how many men he claimed to have slept with? How many? Take a guess. 10,000. You're actually not far off, 20,000.
01:21:24
Speaker
Oh, okay. He claims to have slept with 20,000 men, which is why, like, he never got pissed off about, he never got, he never let this, all the criticism get to him because he's too busy finding the next guy to have sex with. Yeah, well, well, yeah. This is a guy who definitely lived his life to the fullest. Yeah, I mean, this was a guy that knew who he was. He knew what his talent was. And me, I just get really pissed off when
01:21:51
Speaker
people just want to bring his career down to these two movies that he did for hire. These movies, you know, these weren't movies that he was like emotionally committed to. These were movies that basically he was a hired gun. He signed on to do the movies that Warner Brothers wanted him to do. Not that he wanted to do. But if he did Batman the way he wanted to, it would have been a completely different movie. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
01:22:19
Speaker
So yeah, and we can talk more about Schumacher in another episode when we get to that point. Yeah. But what I want to talk about is some of the behind the scenes stuff, because this movie had some pretty interesting behind the scenes stuff going on. So one of them is that, so Michelle Pfeiffer was not originally cast as Catwoman.
Casting Changes in Batman Returns
01:22:40
Speaker
Originally Annette Bening got cast.
01:22:42
Speaker
Annette Benning, yeah. And Michelle Pfeiffer said that she was devastated when she heard that because she really wanted this role. And then Benning got pregnant, so she had to drop out. And then Pfeiffer was able to take over the role after that. Also, Sean Young,
01:23:01
Speaker
Oh yeah. Crazy. Because she was supposed to be in the original Batman, but she like... Yeah. And they're filming a horseback riding scene and she broke her hip or something and she had to drop out of production.
01:23:17
Speaker
and they brought in Kim Basinger to replace her. So when she heard that they were making the second one, she wanted to be Catwoman so bad. Like she would walk on the talk shows dressed up as Catwoman. She was like stalking Tim Burton and like, oh my God. As a matter of fact, I do remember seeing her, I'm trying to remember what talk show it was. It was an afternoon talk show. I know it was an afternoon talk show. And she came on dressed as Catwoman.
01:23:47
Speaker
Yeah, but she did that. She made the rounds of all the talk shows, dressed as Catwoman. And in character as Catwoman. Yeah, yeah. There was this one thing when, do you remember that show The Critic?
01:24:02
Speaker
You sure? It was such a great satire of the movie industry in the 90s. And there's this one scene when Jay is forced to sing the Let's All Go to the Lobby song or something like that. And there's a dancer who's dressed as a giant bottle, and she gets pissed off with him or something, and she breaks the head off the bottle and goes after him. And then his boss is watching it from another room, and he's like, I gotta stop hiring Sean Young.
01:24:38
Speaker
Yeah, that sounds like her. Because she got the reputation after that. And as a matter of fact, for a while, she couldn't get hired for the longest time. Because the word was that she was not. She was certifiably nuts. Yeah. She couldn't get hired for the longest. And then, and also, Robin was supposed to be in this movie. Yep. And I played by Marlon Wayans, right? Played by Marlon Wayans. Yeah, exactly. Robin was supposed to be in this movie.
01:25:08
Speaker
trying to find the thing that they need, the writer here. He had made a comment about it. As a matter of fact, Marlon Wayans, I have read stories where Marlon Wayans, he claims that he still gets checks for this movie.
01:25:29
Speaker
you know, even though he wasn't in it. But I have seen pictures where he did, you know, the costume. Right. You know, that he was fitted for costumes and stuff. You know, it got that far. And they said up until, they said almost before they started shooting that, yeah, that he was in like every draft. Yeah, yeah. So there are a few different things he went through.
01:25:55
Speaker
He wasn't the original script. Like in Sam Ham's original script, he was in that. Now Waters didn't like him in that because he called Robin the most worthless character in the world. And so then he made changes to him. He said at one time he was a juvenile gang leader who becomes an ally to Batman. And then later he was changed to a teenage garage mechanic.
01:26:22
Speaker
He's like, and Waters said that he's wearing this old-fashioned garage mechanic uniform and has an R on it. And he also drives the Batmobile at one point, apparently. And so that scene when they're trying to figure out how to replace the Batmobile, apparently there was gonna be, Robin, who is brought in to fix it up, was probably the original intention. Yeah, and what, there was another,
01:26:45
Speaker
draft i think he was a car thief right yeah who steals the batmobile at one point yeah and um so yeah marlin wanes was cast and he was also signed on for a sequel um and he had he had done a wardrobe fitting and they had worked with dc comics to redesign robin's costume so that became like his that the costume that tim drake wears in the in the comics for like you know
01:27:09
Speaker
what was it, like 10, 15 years before they finally changed it? That was the basis for the costume that they were using in the movie. They were trying to do kind of like some synergy between the two. And I think they brought in, I think it was Neil Adams they brought in to redesign Robin's costume. Yeah, that's what I heard, Neil Adams.
01:27:29
Speaker
And in fact, when the toy lines came out, and I think I mentioned this before, but the, you know, because the toy lines are made way in advance of the movie. So there are a few things they had to do with the toy line. One is they thought Robin was still supposed to be in the movie, so they put him in the Tim Drake costume, because they didn't really have the images of what they were changing it to for the movie.
01:27:51
Speaker
So he put in the Tim Drake costume. If you look at that first Robin figure from the Batman Returns toy line, he's got darker skin and he's got like, you know, one of those, you know, the high top hairstyle. Oh, okay. And you look at that, and you look at that toy and if you only know, if you don't know the story of Marlon Brando, you're like, why are they showing Tim Drake as like a black teenager with like a black, you know, 80s hairstyle?
01:28:19
Speaker
Ah, fascinating. OK, see, I did not know that. Yeah, so that's why the Robin figure looked a little bit, because I remember using that kid, I'm like, oh, is Robin Black now? I remember. Wait a minute. How long is it business? I've read comics. This is actually before I started reading the comic books. But I knew Robin from the 60s show. Is Robin Black there?
01:28:47
Speaker
No, but you know something that's legitimate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would wait a minute. What? And then, uh, no
Merchandising Challenges
01:28:59
Speaker
way. And I bet you that those toys are worth a shitload of money. Oh, probably. Yeah. Well, I remember the hardest one to find was catwoman. Like you could not find a catwoman toy to save your life. Really? Like, yeah, because they're, cause this is, um, you know, they were short packed.
01:29:12
Speaker
Right, you'd have a box of figures that would be shipped to the toy stores and there'd be like a box of like 12 figures in one box. And you'd have like a few Batman, a few penguins, a few Roberts and only one Capwell.
01:29:30
Speaker
If I can believe things that I've heard from people who claim that they know about these things, that was done deliberately so that people would be going all over the place looking for these hard to find figures and stuff like that. Well, I don't think that, maybe, but also another reason why it was done was because at that time, the logic was the only boys are gonna buy these action figures. I've heard that too. And boys aren't gonna wanna buy an action figure of a girl character.
01:29:56
Speaker
I've heard that I've also heard that, yeah, that that's why they don't make a lot of female action figures. Because like you said, the popular perception is that, you know, these are boys that are going to buy them. Right. Yeah. And I remember, like, I wanted the Catwoman figure. Like, I actually made, like, my parents drive around to several stores before I finally found it.
01:30:16
Speaker
Well, see what I mean? You made them drive all over the place looking for this. Yeah, yeah. And you know something? Because eventually the parents is going to buy you something else. Just listen. Here, take this Captain America doll. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, shut up. And also, the Penguin action figure, because Danny DeVito's makeup was supposed to be a secret until the trailer was released.
01:30:39
Speaker
So they would not even let the toy makers see the makeup. Really? Yeah. So what they did was that you, if you look at those old figures, the penguin figure just looks like the comic book penguin. And that's because what they did was they took the old, the character from Kenner's old superpowers toy line, which was like all the DC comics toy line back in the day.
01:31:00
Speaker
And the penguin in that toy line, he was like, you know, there was a classic comic book penguin, but he was, and he was like, his tuxedo was painted like blue or something like this. For the Batman Returns line, they just repainted it black. And that was it. Because they couldn't, they weren't allowed to see the, see the concept art.
01:31:22
Speaker
And see, this is what I try to impress upon people that do a whole bunch of bitching and complaining about superhero movies, because they don't realize there's a lot more that goes on behind these things than just the movie. There's a whole other bunch of stuff that factors in it that you have no idea goes on. Yeah, yeah.
01:31:50
Speaker
And this is one of them. I mean, you know, with the toy thing, yeah. And I mean, that's why they wanted a more family friendly. That's why in, what was the last movie? Batman and Robin. That's why they have like, something like six different costume changes that's in there. So then they can sell more toys. That's the only reason. The only reason why they change costumes six times. And also with the penguins makeup,
01:32:20
Speaker
Like, there was a lot of, this movie wasn't under so much secrecy.
Secrecy & Backlash in Production
01:32:26
Speaker
And they actually hired private investigators to try and get pictures of Danny DeVito in the makeup, which was damn. Like, yeah. Oh, I know, sorry. So here's what it says. I got that mixed up. But so,
01:32:42
Speaker
The art department was required to have their office blinds pulled down the entire day. Cast and crew had to have photo ID badges with the movie's fake working title to go anywhere near the set. Kevin Costner wanted to visit the set, he was refused. Yeah, they were, I heard, yeah, they wouldn't let him. Somebody else I'm thinking of that wanted to visit the set too, and I think it was Clint Eastwood. They wouldn't let Clint Eastwood, yeah, they wouldn't let Clint Eastwood visit the set.
01:33:09
Speaker
And then, so a magazine did get a photo of Danny DeVito as the penguin, and then Warner Brothers hired a private investigator to track down who leaked the photo. This was pre-internet days, folks. It was like the Wild Wild West. Yeah.
01:33:28
Speaker
No, really, I mean, when you consider how much money that they had wrapped up in this movie, Warner Brothers had a shitload of money tied up in this movie. So yeah, that's why they wanted everything tight. This was one of those deals where they had different colored pages for different colored people and you only got a certain number of pages that it's, okay, well, this is what we gotta do today. And yeah, they clamped down security on this thing like crazy. Yeah, yeah.
01:34:00
Speaker
And something else I wanted to mention. Oh, the backlash for this film. So we talked a little bit about the beginning, but like, the backlash to this movie was so extreme that McDonald's, who had been co-producing, like they released like a Happy Meal toy line and stuff like that. Yup, yup. They pulled their promotion. Yup, yeah. Because of parents groups freaking out over the movie.
01:34:28
Speaker
And yeah, and that scared the shit out of the producers, out of Warner Brothers. Because they were like, oh my god, what do we do? And already Burton's already thinking about doing the third one, which was also going to be following the same tone. And there were rumors that he would have had Harvey Dent become Two-Face, Billy Dee Williams. And he would have had, and also rumors, of course, that Robin Williams would have been the Riddler. So there's lots of rumors about this movie.
01:34:58
Speaker
But because there was such a backlash to it, like Warner Brothers told Burton, like, look, if you want to come back for the third one, we got to make it lighter. We got to make it more family friendly. And Burton said, well, I don't want to do that. And then so then Warner Brothers went with Schumacher and said, and to Schumacher's credit, he was friends with Burton. And he asked him, like, look, they offered me this movie. Do you mind? And Burton said, no, go ahead.
01:35:21
Speaker
Yeah, because he was done with it. Because, I mean, you know, Burton had said, and like you said earlier, Burton actually really didn't want to do this one. But if he was going to do it, he did it the way he wanted to do it. And again, we see this thing, whereas these studios, they hired directors. And you know what?
01:35:45
Speaker
This is what you're getting. You don't hire a guy like Tim Burton to do a family-friendly Batman movie. That's not what you're going to get. Right. And now, one other thing to talk about in this movie before we wrap up is,
Batman Returns' Unique Style
01:36:04
Speaker
well, two other things. First off, the guy who plays Max Shrek's son,
01:36:09
Speaker
This guy, I'm convinced that this guy took that role just so we could have the chance to do a Christopher Walken impression to Christopher Walken's face.
01:36:19
Speaker
Really? I don't know. I'm making a joke about that. But he's so good at this. He's basically just imitating Walken the whole time. And he does such a good job of it. Well, there's one point where the Red Triangle gang, OK, they've come to kidnap him. And he tells him to run. And he sounds exactly like Christopher Walken.
01:36:40
Speaker
Yeah he says oh yeah well you want to get him you know but over my dead body and yeah he sounds exactly like him. Now this actor, I looked him up because I was curious about him, his name's Andrew Brignarski and he's actually a former bodybuilder. He was Zangief in the Street Fighter movie.
01:36:57
Speaker
Oh, OK. Well, you could tell he's a big muscular guy. Yeah. But I didn't realize he was that big. I didn't realize he was like Zangief. And yeah, he also played Lobo in the Lobo paramilitary Christmas special. No fooling. Yeah, which was kind of like this fan film thing. And he was also the new Leatherface in the Texas Chainsaw Massacre remake. Oh, so he's got a legitimate acting career. Yeah, yeah.
01:37:26
Speaker
So I just want to mention that and then now about like this movie one of the reasons Tim Burton was allowed to do that was what decided to this movie is because Warner Brothers said look you can basically do whatever you want and that that's kind of the weakness that's I think the biggest weakness of this movie is that Tim Burton had no restrictions on him and even though it's a good movie it's not really a Batman movie.
01:37:50
Speaker
No, it's not. It's not. It's a solid movie. I enjoy what I, like I said before, I watched it last night and I found myself enjoying it. Well, I always enjoy, you know, any Tim Burton movies. I don't think that there is a Tim Burton movie with the exception of Planet of the Apes.
01:38:09
Speaker
that I don't enjoy. And I enjoy his vision of Batman. I believe that one of the reasons why I like it is that he puts it in its own world, in its own timeless world. So that's why these movies don't look dated to me. I think that one of the flaws of the Christopher Nolan Batman movies is that it goes so far
01:38:35
Speaker
trying to show how Batman would operate in the real world that for me,
01:38:40
Speaker
it does, that it has the opposite effect that, okay, it's showing me how Batman couldn't work in the real world. Yeah. You know, that's why I, you know, I liked the Tim Burton movies because it puts Batman in his own reality, which is where I believe that he works best when you put him in his own reality, you know? So that's why these movies still, his movies still look fresh to me.
01:39:06
Speaker
you know, there's nothing, there is no definite slang or pop culture references that tie to any particular time period, which I enjoy. So, yeah, but it has those indulgences that we've talked about.
01:39:30
Speaker
I think he goes too far with the penguin, just like you said, the whole thing with the kids having to be taken out because, yeah, he went too far with that. Right. You know, the whole sexual references, you know.
01:39:47
Speaker
I believe that that takes away from it. I mean, not that you can't do a Batman movie where you deal with the whole thing that people get turned on by having masks and stuff like that. But that's not the movie that Warner Brothers wanted. Right, right. So yeah, I mean, there are definite flaws in this movie. But it's a point.
01:40:11
Speaker
It is a satisfying movie for what it is. If there was anything that I would do, I would have more Batman, of course. Absolutely, yeah, because he's only in there for like 24 minutes or something like that.
01:40:24
Speaker
And also like there's the sadism of Batman that kind of goes a little bit too far in this movie. Like when he straps the bomb to the one guy's chest and he like kind of smiles before he throws him off and the guy blows up. Oh, yeah. Well, he straight up murders two guys. Oh, yeah. I mean, one time he like, you know, these two guys, they spit fire at the Batmobile and he turns it around and he blows the fire exhaust and lights them on fire.
01:40:49
Speaker
Yeah. So I mean, you know, those guys are dead. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, listen, if they're not dead, they wish they were. Yeah, yeah. And then, yeah, the guy with the bonk, like you said, he kind of like gives that little smirk and he smiles. And he even gives that little smirk when he lights up those two guys. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's a sadistic edge to Batman that I'm
01:41:12
Speaker
kind of uncomfortable with. Now, he does kill a guy... Well, he kills a lot of guys in the first movie too. And I mean, the airplane thing, when he has the bat plane and he's...
01:41:28
Speaker
and he's flying it down the alley. And he manages to shoot everybody except the joker, the guy saying that. He kills all the jokers, and then there's the guy, he throws, he's in the church balcony, and he throws the guy down to the church. So he kills about like half a dozen people in the first movie, but he doesn't take the sadistic glee that he does and that I perceive in this one.
01:41:54
Speaker
Yeah, so Matt Wagner, who, you know, comic book writer artist who created, what was it? I think he created Grendola's, but he also worked on some Batman comics. Yeah, yeah. He said, he was quoted as saying, I hated how Batman Returns made Batman little more than just another costume creep, little better than the villains he's pursuing. And there's something to that. And, but also, Ty Burr wrote an Entertainment Weekly that,
01:42:20
Speaker
No wonder some people felt burned by Batman Returns. Tim Burton just may have created the first blockbuster art film. And I think there's something really to that. Like there's, he doesn't really, like I said, the story in this movie actually is pretty weak. But it's, there's so much other stuff going on. There are these really good character arcs. They're really good acting. The visuals are amazing, but it's,
01:42:50
Speaker
And there's all these themes of sexuality and all that kind of stuff playing around in the background, but they never really form into a coherent story that makes any sense.
01:43:03
Speaker
Well, the whole art film thing, yeah, I go because, as I said in the last episode, one of the things I like about this movie is that it's almost like a black and white film in color. Right. Like, the only bright colors we see are the Christmas trees. And, you know, anything that's got to relate to that we see. But in the other scenes, the colors are like really muted. There's no really bright color. And especially, like, there's a scene where the penguin
01:43:30
Speaker
is going through the graveyard and he's going to the graveyard. And yeah, that's like black and white, you know? So a lot of this movie, it reminds me of... Oh, and of course there's a lot of that German expressionism kind of stuff. Right, and Burton loves that stuff. Yeah, Burton loves that stuff. So there's a lot of that in here.
01:43:49
Speaker
So yeah, the whole thing where it, yeah, this is more art. I can definitely see that this has naturally brought it up. I could see this definitely more of an arts film. Yeah. Field to this one than in the first one. Yeah, definitely. Okay, so any final things you have to say about Batman Returns? I enjoy it. I like it. I've got, listen, I've got
01:44:19
Speaker
I've got the first four Batman movies on Blu-ray, and I take them out at least once a year, and I join them as a matter of fact. Thank you for giving me an opportunity and excuse to watch if Batman returns again. But don't take me, this is your pick. Yeah, well, listen. Yeah, but you gave me the impetuous, because remember, I was gonna do Batman. Oh, right, right. So listen, I take any opportunity I can to watch.
01:44:47
Speaker
any of the Tim Burton Batman movies. Not that I need an excuse, but you know, I just enjoy watching them over and over again. And even with all of the flaws that it has, as you pointed out,
01:45:03
Speaker
I just enjoy the performances in this one so much because everybody, you know, I can't emphasize enough how much Christopher Walken is having such a good time being a Batman villain. And in fact, this is kind of funny, apparently Tim Burton didn't want to cast Walken because Walken scared the crap out of him. Really? Yeah.
01:45:25
Speaker
Incredible. You know, he almost gives off like a Christopher Lee kind of vibe in this movie. Yeah. Yeah, especially with the with the white hair. Yeah. Yeah. He he could almost be Christopher Lee's son in this movie. And I love that the pinstripe suits he wears with the leather gloves. Like he does. You just know this guy is sinister all over. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, exactly. That's the whole thing. You know, I mean, he just gives off that vibe that he's and when he does because he is a
01:45:54
Speaker
song and dance man. And you can see that in his body language, because this seems like... Shrek is almost dancing when he walks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's bouncing along. It's not like he's walking like everybody else. He's actually bouncing. So yeah, it's a great performance. Michael Keaton,
01:46:16
Speaker
If you're listening to this, I love you as Batman.
Michael Keaton's Batman Legacy
01:46:20
Speaker
I pray that it's true that we will see you again in The Flash or if not The Flash in some other movie as Batman again, because to me, Dark Knight Returns, I mean,
01:46:33
Speaker
To me, I'm sorry. A lot of people think I'm crazy. I don't care. You can think I'm crazy. But yeah, Michael Keaton is my favorite live action Batman. If we're talking favorite Batman, period, of course, there's got to be Kevin Conroy. But if we're talking live action, yeah, it's always going to be Michael Keaton.
01:46:50
Speaker
Okay, okay, really good summation. So next week is my pick and normally I don't want to go back to the well too many times with like the same character, but we did have some other bad news in the past few weeks that was really kind of the opposite of the Keaton news, whereas the Keaton news was something to be happy about. This was something to be sad about and that's that Joel Schumacher passed away. Yeah.
01:47:19
Speaker
So I wanted to kind of talk about one of his movies.
Next Episode Teaser
01:47:25
Speaker
And so I was going back and forth whether or not to do Batman Forever or Batman and Robin. And I think I'm leaning towards Batman and Robin. What do you think? Okay. Okay, so yeah. We can do Batman and Robin. No, I want to do Batman and Robin because it's universally like,
01:47:48
Speaker
despise, but you and me, we are not gonna be spending the next episode bashing Joel Schumacher and bashing this movie, because even though it's got a lot of bad things about it, you and I have both kind of come to see it as one of those, it's so bad it's good movies.
01:48:06
Speaker
And actually, for those of you that are listening to this, do this in preparation for our next episode. Watch the 1966 Batman with Adam West, and then watch this one. Yeah. And I think you get an idea of where I'm going to be going with that episode when we do it. Right. OK. So just do that. Just do that experiment, folks.
01:48:30
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good way to do it. And that's part of what put it in my mind too, because after we watched 66 a few weeks ago, and I'm like, it started getting me thinking about it. Yeah. All right. So that does it for this week of Superhero Cinephiles. Head on over to the Facebook group, pop in and join in, join in the discussion, leave us a review on iTunes, you know, give us
01:48:55
Speaker
Anytime you rate and review this show, then it helps boost us up and they show it to more people so we can get more listeners. So any- Boost the signal folks, boost the signal. Yeah, yeah. At Superhero Cinema Pod on Twitter as well and on Instagram also. Yeah, and that about does it for us. Thanks so much for listening and we will talk to you next time. Okay, thank you very much. And as always, remember the coronavirus is still out there. Wash your hands, wear your mask, be careful. Good night, God bless.
01:49:30
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Superhero Cinephiles Podcast. If you have any questions or comments about this or any other episode, or if you have a superhero movie or TV show you'd like us to cover in a future episode, you can email us at superheroescinephiles at gmail.com, or you can also visit us on the web at superheroescinephiles.com.
01:49:50
Speaker
If you like what you hear, leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. Each review helps us reach more potential listeners. You can also support the show by renting or purchasing the movies discussed, or by picking up our books, all of which can be accessed through the website, as well as find links to our social media presences. The theme music for this show is a shortened version of Superhero Showdown, a royalty-free piece of music, courtesy of beslionstudios.com.