Transcript
johngrimsmo: Good morning and welcome to the Business of Machining episode 407. My name is John Grimsmo.
John S: My name is John Tunters.
johngrimsmo: And this is your weekly dose of manufacturing. We're two friends have been doing this for eight years. Talking pretty much every week about our businesses and our lives and what we got going on, what we're stressed about, and what we're trying to figure out.
johngrimsmo: And think it helps. And we hit record a while ago.
John S: Yeah, no you know it. We know it helps. It's a good thing.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
John S: yeah
johngrimsmo: It's nice.
John S: How are you?
johngrimsmo: um I'm good, man. Lots going on. um Selling feels quite well. We've sold, i don't know, 60-ish of this first 100.
John S: That's awesome.
johngrimsmo: if Even Leif didn't know that they're selling yet. he's like, so when are you going to start selling this knife? He was playing with one, and I'm like, dude, we've sold like 60 already. He's like, oh, sweet. Good for you.
John S: Yeah, that's awesome.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. that's going good. And i will say like we made the APs and that was to lock down the design and we did change stuff throughout the APs. And the first hundred is to lock down tolerances and assembly fit up and things like that. And this process of doing that has been eyeopening.
johngrimsmo: Like I'm really glad we kind of staggered it and did these soft releases. Um, because I like to fine tune and I like to change and tweak and modify and, um,
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: This allows us to do it on sellable products that slightly get better and better and better and better. And sometimes you can only learn all this stuff by making 100 parts.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: You can't make and use them.
John S: Make them and and use them.
johngrimsmo: and And they have to go through the whole process. Heat treat, finishing, tumbling, everything. Because everything is a possible variable for alteration or change or somebody, you know, fat fingered a thing on the control or fat fingered a stone when they're sanding and all kinds of things.
johngrimsmo: So we've learned a lot. And it's caused us to um work closer together as a team. And was just great. Just great.
John S: No, there's such a great commentary around processes and the documentation and giving people acceptable tolerance ranges, communicating around, like, even if you have a tolerance range, do you have a preference um around you want it higher, you want it low and.
johngrimsmo: Yeah,
johngrimsmo: yeah and we are inventing these tolerances as we go.
John S: Mm hmm.
johngrimsmo: Like, because it's an integral, it's a slot through a block of titanium with two internal hidden pockets. one of the depth of or the depth of both those pockets is we measured, we track it pretty accurately. It's hard to measure, um but it's important.
johngrimsmo: And you know it's easy to comp it on the machine, but it's also easy to make a whole bunch of bad parts good with this hard to measure feature. So we measured every single one and we still didn't know what was an acceptable tolerance.
johngrimsmo: like
John S: This is the um bearing pocket that's...
johngrimsmo: yeah
johngrimsmo: Yep, the bearing pocket where the blade and the two bearings go and the blade has to slip between those two bearings.
John S: Yeah. That's so cool.
johngrimsmo: And even to CMM it, there's no obvious way to be able to CMM that pocket. um So our local probe tip rep salesman guy, he sells CMM probe tips and Bloom and Renishaw stuff.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um He was by yesterday and he brought us, Angela and him talked about it last week and he brought us a sample that looks like a little disc probe. So it's like a tiny little circular flat disc on the end of a shaft
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And theoretically, you could lay the knife on the side and go through the pivot hole and lift up and tap around the outside and then put also push down and tap around the other one.
John S: Yes.
johngrimsmo: If there's a burr, it's going to screw everything up. So that's possible area for misalignment.
John S: Sure.
johngrimsmo: But um that will tell us not only the width, but also the alignment of those two features, if they're tilting, if they're spreading, things like that.
John S: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: um But we have...
John S: well Or rather, they you know that they are doing how much.
johngrimsmo: 100%. Yeah, and it'll tell you how much and where.
John S: Right.
johngrimsmo: And then because on a five axis, theoretically, you can be like, oh, if I machine this at 0.005 degrees B, it'll solve this. like um So I don't know yet.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: But we have the the static width down to it a good number um that everything just goes together better better when it's like perfectly in the sweet spot, you know?
John S: Yeah, and yeah, no, totally.
johngrimsmo: It's it's too sloppy, it works, but it's got this downside and that downside and you get it just right. and you're like, oh mama, yes, this, this, I want this.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: I want this for everything. um So it's fantastic.
John S: So on that note, I have a video edited. I need to release it, probably do it next week. um It's like a 10 minute video on how I and we here at Saunders communicate within Fusion.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John S: so Because I realized a while back there are all of these little things that we do, the names of setups, the names of NC programs, file names, sketch names, sketch data.
John S: um And it's honestly pretty helpful. And it's... you know, kind of going back to, you know, you are my comments where like, or for maybe it's more for me. Like yeah I don't do YouTube two anymore if I ever did for the whole rat race of influence or whatever. It's more just like, Hey, pay it forward, share what we learned.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: This is actually a really good video. It's actually super useful information. um I'm sure somebody, everybody will know what, at least some of the things, but I would be shocked if everybody had, if you didn't learn one thing from it.
johngrimsmo: For sure.
John S: So I'm excited to, um yeah, oddly passionate about it.
johngrimsmo: That's cool.
johngrimsmo: Good.
John S: Just that I was laughing too, i because of the all all the things we use in fusion to communicate the one we don't is the fusion comment box.
johngrimsmo: And
johngrimsmo: and that's a funny joke for the video.
John S: do Do you use it?
johngrimsmo: Like, no.
John S: Yeah, nobody does. Right.
johngrimsmo: Yep. Yep. But it's super important. And I bet you every shop has a different way of doing it. um But for you to be able to consolidate your thoughts and experiences into one video will be super.
johngrimsmo: I'm looking forward to that.
John S: Well, like one of the things that we show in the video is, you know, people, I think, under under appreciate what you can do with sketches, including, that's what made me think of It was like, let's say, let's say, you know, that this Fjell slot is going to open up 1.7 degrees on average. So you end up creating a sketch that pre- you you end up machining it a tighter state so that it relaxes open.
John S: Well, in the sketch, you can just add a text box that explains the date and time of what you did and why you did it.
johngrimsmo: Yep. Mm-hmm.
John S: And then you name that sketch something and so it doesn't get lost in the weeds. And there's some other stuff we did on patterning that really helps. If you've ever done any work on patterning and infusion, especially on the campsite, it can be really confusing about what's the joint or the saved location that's driving it.
John S: How do I edit one without editing the others?
johngrimsmo: who
John S: And um We've come up with ah what I think is a very simple and elloant eloquent way to handle that.
johngrimsmo: Nice. Even the direction of a pattern. I had one, I was working on something on the Mori last week and the pattern flipped and I, I machined into another part instead of into the part to the right.
John S: Yeah.
John S: Yeah. Well,
johngrimsmo: um So I ruined the part to the left. And was like, huh, I didn't even, didn't even cut the one I wanted. What happened?
John S: and that's more, that's all proven stuff right? You're not even doing something new.
johngrimsmo: was screwing around with something new. Yeah. So it, it was, I didn't simulate, like I didn't.
John S: Right, but I'm not gonna throw a stone there.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, exactly.
John S: Like, yeah.
johngrimsmo: But that is one of my talking points and it kind of ties into ah notes infusion. So everything on the Mori, we pretty much make Norseman handle top sides and hard blades. Like we grind the bevels.
John S: Okay.
johngrimsmo: You know the Norseman has the machining lines in the bevel?
John S: Yes.
johngrimsmo: um So we do that on the Mori and we have forever. And the file is from 2018.
johngrimsmo: And it's like hardly changed much at all.
John S: That's hilarious, yeah.
johngrimsmo: And it's to the point where I don't really trust reposting the entire program. So if I need to update something, I post the operation and I paste it in and I like manually make sure it's gonna do what I think it's gonna do.
John S: sure
John S: Oh my god. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
johngrimsmo: And I needed to do something because one of the features, ah the way the pivot head fits into the pocket of the handle, we were having issues. It was being weird. The pivots were sitting crooked, which makes the the barrel sit crooked and the knife doesn't go together. Right. And this is a Norseman. We'll make Norseman all the time.
johngrimsmo: was made over 8,000 Norseman. Like what the heck?
John S: Really?
johngrimsmo: Why is this? Yeah. Why is this a problem now?
John S: That's crazy.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. And so I'm like, okay, let's dig into this. It turns out the pivots, they're like this ovalized shape, like a circle, but with two flat sides.
johngrimsmo: Um, And the pivots we've been making since Pierre was here like four years ago, and the spec sheets that we have, you know, make it this width, make it this diameter, this thickness, doesn't match the CAD for that pivot.
johngrimsmo: And it doesn't match the CAD for the hole in the handle. Like the shapes are slightly different. And whatever genius, me, um made all these changes, obviously didn't change change everything that needed to be changed, you know?
John S: realize
John S: Oh, sure, sure.
johngrimsmo: So it's been like just good enough.
John S: That's really fun.
johngrimsmo: um but now that I look into I'm like, that's like three thou, the, the two flat sidewalls of the pivot are like three thou different than CAD, than reality, than whatever. and I'm like, no wonder why it's not fitting. Like it's just wrong.
John S: Yeah. Oh, we so why it wasn't a...
johngrimsmo: Um,
John S: Oh, sorry.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, so the handles have been wrong but good enough. um
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And now I don't know if there were some pivots that were like slightly over or, you know, Eric told me, he's like, oh yeah, I've been sanding down the pivots for quite a while, like and this on the sides.
John S: Oh my God. No.
johngrimsmo: And i was like, I didn't know this. Like you're allowed to cry wolf too many times if it's a real problem, you know? Yeah.
John S: Right. Right.
johngrimsmo: um so that led to that and then trying to re make a little program to recut these pivot holes put the handles back on recut the pivot holes with the new profile that's better um that's where i got the pattern wrong and it went to the left instead of to the right and then looking through how 2018 john created this whole program and created the the the post and
John S: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: all these manual NCs for tool counter, tool life counter into macros.
John S: Oh, yeah.
johngrimsmo: And at the time I really liked counting tool per pallet. So I get six pallets of life out of this tool and the limit is nine or whatever. I don't like doing that. I like minutes now. Counting tool life by minutes is so much better in so many ways.
John S: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: But that machine is kind of now stuck doing her pallet tool a life, whatever. um And the other one was all the probing operations. So you put a handle on the fixture, you probe the pivot hole to make sure everything's in relation to that new pivot hole, physical location, regardless of if the pallet's off a little bit or if the handle's off or whatever.
johngrimsmo: But the logic and the manual NCs that I did for that is it just way too complicated. like
John S: ah
johngrimsmo: If I were to throw that in the garbage and start over again, it would take a lot of work, but it's so much cleaner and better and readable and like it works.
John S: Yeah.
John S: Right. But it works at all. Why?
johngrimsmo: So, but I had to make this tweak for the new pivot shape because it's been wrong and it was, it was not easy to do. took me like hours to wrap my head around this and get it right and scrap some parts and like, wow, man, I kind of wish I could just start over.
John S: Yeah.
John S: Sometimes you gotta just nuke it, right?
johngrimsmo: Mm-hmm. But it's a stable now that this is fixed. It's back to stable. Still not ideal, but stable enough. um
John S: So on that note, I think it's probably worth a three minute PSA for Fusion users because this bit us and I knew about it I knew about it from the WhatsApp group. I knew about it from the Fusion blogs and I will go against the grain and sort of say, I don't blame Autodesk here. I know there's a lot, sometimes people like to complain or complain that Fusion changes stuff and I get it. Really, I do. On the flip side, it's it's going, I commend them for continuing to iterate. And I ironically in this situation, i actually agree with the new heights
johngrimsmo: e
John S: behavior, I think it's better. I think it just sucks that many of us have used it for almost ah or a decade and now you change it.
johngrimsmo: It's a little confusing to switch, right?
John S: So here's the simple explanation. Hopefully this is the simplest way to explain it. Um, this would mostly or only relate to 3d toolpaths. toolpaths are not three-dimensional, but they're rather toolpaths from the 3d menu that are model aware.
John S: So let's use flat as the example. Flat is a way to simply machine all the flat surfaces on a part and,
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John S: um A lot of times what we will do is we use flat to say clean up all of the floors. The particular part that bit us was a Porsche valve cover that we make. So it has, but to think of it as the size of a textbook and it has three pockets in it and those pockets have hex patterns is for aesthetic reasons. And ah flat is a really nice way to machine all of those hex patterns and all those floor surfaces without clicking anything.
John S: So if you click just click flat and accept the toolpath, it will put toolpaths on the floor, but it would also put toolpaths on the top of the part, like the very top of it.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: So the common way that I think we and many others did it would be you would say that your're flat on the in the flat operation Heights tab, your top height was the model top of negative 1,000.
johngrimsmo: yeah Negative one or something. Yeah. Yeah.
John S: And that means, i I'm belaboring or over explaining it, but that means the top most eligible surface is 1,000 below the top of your model. So it would not touch or machine anything on the top of the that part.
John S: the change is now they've kind of they've kind of changed the way those heights interact with stock to leave and what happened was we wanted the valve covers to be one thou thinner and so somebody well because it could have been me certainly no blame game here put negative one thou axial stock to leave as well and now
johngrimsmo: Yes.
John S: Fusion is treating that as, oh, okay, you want to make this part one down lower. And that is, come um'm now I'm not doing a great job explaining, but basically that now will machine the top of the part um in a way that's very different behavior than in the past.
johngrimsmo: Hmm.
John S: So the simple PSA,
johngrimsmo: OK.
John S: especially for folks that have saved programs, job shopper production of like, hey, I'm just going to pull this off, not simulate it, just run it. Like, no, you can't on this one. This one matters.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. So if you have a stable program and you just regenerate everything with the latest update, is it possible that it could ruin old stable toolpaths or change?
John S: Not possible.
johngrimsmo: It ruin.
John S: it will.
johngrimsmo: definitely yeah yeah yeah exactly
John S: Like the, we saw, you don't even need to simulate, you'll see it in the tool pack, like if you just click on the operation, but you know, we have 4,000 programs, John, like, you know, with, and and with each program has five to hundred cam operations.
John S: Like, I don't know, there aren't things I think about.
johngrimsmo: who
John S: And luckily didn't crash. It just, just ruined two pieces of material, total 50 bucks, not, know, whatever. But,
johngrimsmo: time money yeah probably
John S: It was the first time ever on our group, not Slack, Google Chat, where I was like hey, you know kind of a red flag, when need to have an emergency meeting, I need to show everybody this so that they, now we all know.
John S: So now there is a level of responsibility, like, hey, we need to now try to think.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, no.
John S: Luckily, we don't use tons of 3D toolpaths and
johngrimsmo: yeah
John S: Certainly on the Saunders side, but man, that's, again, I hate to, well, it doesn't do any good to blame lot this because the reality is there's still we love, like there's no other software.
John S: and It's like I'm going you know, I've been, I've been casually following what Dylan's doing with leaving.
johngrimsmo: yeah no
John S: potentially moving to NX or Hyper Mill. And I don't know his parts well enough and that may be the best fit, but I will never forget when we had kids and somebody had made the kind of joke of like, well, if you're looking for the daycare that nobody complains about, you'll be keeping your kids at home. Like not nothing is perfect.
John S: So I mostly just want to share with PSA.
johngrimsmo: For sure. And on top of that, I don't know all the details and this might've changed, but within the past few months for 3D tool paths, there is the, you know, in the page where you select, i do this surface, avoid this surface.
John S: Yes.
johngrimsmo: And now they added like fixture model and you can add other like weird things in the bottom.
John S: Yes. which Really nice.
johngrimsmo: It's nice, but it's, there's another stock to leave in that section.
John S: Oh, okay.
johngrimsmo: That's like, and it's,
John S: We're clearing stock or something.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, and but they took it away from the regular stock to leave area or something, I forget. But it made me feel like, why do I put it here now and not over there?
John S: Okay.
johngrimsmo: I'm confused. And does it, there's the classic question, does it add to the other or does it, you know, fight each other?
John S: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um So it's like you as a programmer have to make the choice. I'm using it this way now to make sure it does what I expect it to do. And you really got inspect your work to make sure it's like, oh no, this is this is what I want.
John S: Right.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And that's just the evolution of a software. Like, I love that they keep pushing the boundaries, but sometimes we're left holding the stick going, i'm what do I do now?
John S: Yeah, I know.
johngrimsmo: Like, I used to know what I'm doing and now I don't know what I'm doing. And I just made a bad part.
John S: But I think some of that might just be a journey you and I go through over the next five to 10 years as we we become a little older and a little less interested in
johngrimsmo: yeah
John S: change and new it's not, I mean, it's not Grimsmo buying his first, uh, Mori with no other equipment or like processes. And now it's like, no, we need lot of companies.
johngrimsmo: yeah yeah
John S: Um, there's probably a more valid, valid complaint about like perpetual, uh, self-install or standalone software versus, you know, cloud update, blah, blah, blah. But again, can complain all you want.
John S: is the world we live in.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, definitely Go
John S: Like, uh, you you know, Yep.
johngrimsmo: go for it Yes
John S: Can I ask a question? So it's it's on the topic of measuring and tolerancing and bla blah, blah, blah. So I want to emphasize how much I respect measuring small, but measuring,
John S: um in 10th, using a 10th indicator or even a 50 millionth indicator, the millimus indicators, I want to, I want to profess that I have a respect for it. I'm still very much learning, but um we have new surface plates. We have Herman Schmidt indicator stands. We have a Brown and sharp 50 millionth indicator, which I did buy used from Roy Crumwright. So that's not brand new to me.
John S: I also have a brand new unused Mitu Toyo dial indicator that is a, 10ths one and actually have a Micron one as well. And we have two millimuses.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: The millimuses are used, to are new to us, but used on almost, but on all of them.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John S: I can take, um I'm using ah the biggest face of a one, two, three block with with no holes in it because that's a stable object that is less likely to be prone to my fat finger tipping it or rocking it um to the point where you actually get a decent suction, if you will, when you have it on a surface plate.
johngrimsmo: yep
John S: When I move it back and forth, I absolutely can easily induce approximately a one micron, sometimes two to three micron jump on my my instrument.
johngrimsmo: Not due to the flatness of the park necessarily, but due to your movement, you think?
John S: No. Due to... I don't know what's causing it.
johngrimsmo: Like, a 1-2-3 block is not guaranteed to be square. I mean, there's a spec, I'm sure, but...
John S: but No, it's not dust. and it's not the It's not the block itself. Because the same thing happens on seroblocks and other things.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John S: What I think it is, is i think it's slop in the... all of the intricate mechanisms of the measuring instrument, along with some shock factor of when you...
johngrimsmo: Mmm, yeah.
John S: Because effectively, you think about you punch it, you're bouncing it. Like, I think that's all that it is. But I want and i actually emailed our Mitsutoya rep.
johngrimsmo: Mmm.
John S: He's getting back to me. But I want to understand this better because it spooks me and it spooks the guys. Because I'm like, hey, we have these, you know, engage blocks. we have this process. We need to measure to this. You have a tolerance range. But in fairness, if it kind of jumps around or, you know, I want to know when that's okay and when it's like, nope, we got to...
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Interesting.
John S: No, no, you don't see this or deal with it?
johngrimsmo: yep I think I know what you mean. um
John S: I should throw i'll throw up on Instagram, sorry.
johngrimsmo: i don't think I've seen it enough to be like, oh, stop everything. i don't like this anymore. um Like with a dial test indicator, maybe if you move in the direction of the tip, not side to side, it'll lever...
John S: Understood, absolutely, sorry.
johngrimsmo: You know what i'm mean? and And maybe that's a better way to do it than moving side to side. But sometimes you don't think about it. You just move it all around. You're like, it's weird.
John S: Yeah, again, when I started that conversation by saying I want to respect it, i I think I've learned a lot of good practices about how you approach the part to the indicator.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John S: And we also switched to the dial indicator because then it's not... It's a... it's a The shaft is normal to the surface, and so you don't have that same bias.
johngrimsmo: ye
John S: And this is just moving ah moving the part around when you're in the middle of the part so you're not coming on and off the part.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: Although that's the same question. Like sometimes you can... um seemingly, I guess I don't know how common it is.
John S: Let's say you're at NIST or let's say you're at, you know, Mari tools, quality control lab, like place like your place.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John S: What's really focused in control, clean controlled room, the right equipment. It's all inspected. If you have a two inch gauge block under a dial test indicator on a surface gauge or height gauge, And you, it reads zero, you're sweeping in check that you're checking it read zero on your calibration block.
John S: But then you come back a day later, no thermal change, no other dust, but like, it might be a tether two off. Like something might have just kind of moved in the system until you recalibrate it But like, how, how normal is that?
johngrimsmo: Sagged, yeah.
johngrimsmo: e
John S: That makes sense.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, well, um kind of goes back to the Robin Ranzetti, everything is rubber. And your indicator stand will sag over time to a point of natural happiness. I actually tested that with the Gorilla stand. I set it with the 20 millionth millimass, super mess, whatever it is.
johngrimsmo: um And I left it overnight and I came back the next day and it was still at zero. And was like, well, that's kind of cool.
John S: Hmm. Yeah. and it Actually, see that's a great idea, John. Just leave it on apart for five hours.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah. And just just till tomorrow, just leave it, see what happens.
John S: this Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yes, there's thermal changes through the shop. Like, just see what happens. Who cares? um So there's that. um So we have the Mitutoyo electronic dial indicator.
John S: Okay.
johngrimsmo: So vertical vertical plunger style.
John S: Yep.
johngrimsmo: And it's got a very skinny shaft tip on it with a small ball. So when I'm sliding a part under it, I feel like the ball is grabbing and the shaft is vibrating.
johngrimsmo: um because it's, I'm trying to scrape it sideways and hope it'll move up and down millions of an inch.
John S: Yes, right.
johngrimsmo: So it has the little, it is, whereas a dial indicator, dial test indicator has the little lever and you get the axis, right?
John S: It's a very inefficient transfer of, yeah.
John S: Right.
johngrimsmo: And it's like very little force and it just skates underneath.
John S: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: Whereas this one, you're, you're expecting it to move straight up on a, you know, slight incline. Um, so don't love that. And, uh, So that's why it's got the little hand lever on it, the little finger lifter, which is pretty cool.
John S: Yes. Yep.
johngrimsmo: And the even cooler ones have the remote plunger or like the one Adam on the Machinist has.
John S: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: It's like a button. You push a button and it pneumatically or whatever, like lift it up and then it sets it down. Same soft every time. Like that's kind of the ultimate. So you're not scraping, you're lifting, but repositioning, tapping again and creating point measurements.
johngrimsmo: It just depends on what you want to do. Sometimes you just need to sweep the surface. And sometimes you're actually like, how thick is this? How thick is this? No other influences. And then the surface finish of your part. If it's just a surface ground finish, you might see some bouncing.
johngrimsmo: If it's lapped, you won't.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: you know um One thing you could try, though, is just a little drop of oil under the indicator tip just to eliminate that.
John S: Oh, that's good boy.
johngrimsmo: you know It's like probably not good practice, but it's a data point to something.
John S: I think um I got kind of in the weeds and in the trees and forgot to think about the forest here. um Does... Dial indicator. i'm making it to myself.
John S: Stay at zero. So i think I think my hypothesis is that our brown and sharp is either needs repaired or just isn't up to what the same condition it was brand new, which is not a crazy outcome because...
John S: let's say you have it on a two inch you know gauge block. it and It's perfect conditions, all that. You can check it, set it, and then come back in two minutes and you might see that it's off three, like a significant amount, say three tenths.
John S: And then it'll repeat perfectly those three tenths as you move it in and off, on and off carefully and move it around.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John S: And so that there's no, um I've definitely seen busted indicators or or gunky ones. It does doesn't behave like that, but it doesn't seem to honor zero, I guess would be what I'm saying.
John S: And I,
johngrimsmo: And that that's not the holder stagging, whatever's holding it.
John S: the
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: No, it's not. It's not. it's says It's a brand new Hermann Schmidt and that's been reliable. And now that i think about it, the Mitsutoyo brand new dial indicator, i can get some bounce out of it, but it always, it honors the zero, if you will. If you you calibrate to zero and you come back, it's always good. There's just still that little bounce when you move it, which I think is just the kind of kinematic jerk, kind of like what you said, you're you're bouncing a shaft up and down that's perpendicular to the surface of measuring.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John S: There will be some shock to it. about tiny amount, um but i don't like it either.
johngrimsmo: who
John S: um
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: So, yeah.
johngrimsmo: I love a lot of this stuff. I spent a lot of time like thinking about this, researching it, playing on the surface plate and just kind of trying to answer these questions myself. Actually, I've got two videos coming coming out that I've filmed where I play with the Gorilla Stan and I do surface plate measurements and I just, I go through some of this stuff.
John S: Oh, good.
johngrimsmo: um And it's really fun to like try to explain what you're doing while you're doing it.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: What's, what's going on through your head kind of thing. It's fun.
John S: Thank you.
johngrimsmo: I like it. um Going back to the first hundred fjells, I got a couple more notes. um We're scrapping a few blades due to, and like there has to be 100 blades at the end of this day. Like they're called first hundred. We can't skip number 62.
John S: Oh, sure.
johngrimsmo: Like, like we remake it, you know, um scrapping a few due to either think one or two were machining problem. Something went wrong and it's like, oops.
johngrimsmo: um And a couple like in final assembly, either it's too stiff to open up or too soft or it needed to be hand filed in a certain area, detents. And so I'm fine remaking them, but it's leading to bigger questions going, why is this happening?
johngrimsmo: Why are we scrapping the blade there? How can we avoid this? How can, you know, in machining, how can we make it so that this never happens again? And the finishing guys just put it together and it's like same every time.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And part of that goes to the thermal growth comp we talked about on the Speedio past few weeks. Now I'm comping that, measuring that. It seems to be helping. um Still doesn't solve all the problems in the world, but it I think it is totally valuable to do that.
John S: Oh yeah.
johngrimsmo: And some other guys commented, reached out to me and said, yeah, Speedios just do that. third They're not thermally controlled currents. Like every machine moves around. And if you look close enough, um most people don't.
John S: The speedy though is grinding the blades. That wouldn't have any effect on the action of the knife though, right?
johngrimsmo: ah Not the action. No, in that case, it would be the bevels being side to side different. And when we measure that, we see some variation in, you know, the the left bevel and the right bevel. One might be more bigger than the other.
John S: Got it.
johngrimsmo: And sometimes you can see that, but we're also hard milling the critical features on that blade. So we take the blade off, we put on the top of the fixture, and now we have access to the pivot hole, to where the lockup is, where the pins hit, and we're hard milling that with on the Speedio with the Moldino tools.
John S: Yeah.
John S: On the Kern?
John S: on On the Kern?
johngrimsmo: Yeah, exactly. um And it has been a thought lately. I was like, why am I doing this on the Speedio and I could easily do it on the current? I don't know. I just am.
John S: Yeah. Somebody even go make the meme of the Star Wars characters and it's like, you're doing that on the Kern, right, John?
johngrimsmo: yeah On the current, right? Yeah. um Yeah, so I i could, but um so it's it's good enough on the speedio, I think. I don't know.
John S: But we're having this conversation.
johngrimsmo: It's an option. Well, i'm I'm learning that these are problems. If they were on the current, it probably never would have been a problem to begin with. So, fair, anyway.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. So like the depth of a certain pocket, it's pretty critical. We're trying to hold tenths when the machine moves a thou throughout the day.
John S: Yeah. Right. Right.
johngrimsmo: It's a big deal. It's a really big deal. And it's it's nice to learn these things the hard way sometimes so that you have this attuneness. And I teach the guys in my shop like, yeah, and everything's rubber. These things happen. Like how do we either avoid it or put it on a machine that just doesn't happen? Or this is why the current is so good?
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um because it just does that. And then locationally, though, the Speedio is fantastic. Like, it hold it makes perfect circles. it's Everything's tight. It's good. The high-accuracy chip where I get, you know, five decimals inch is just the greatest thing ever.
John S: yeah
johngrimsmo: um And, you know, so what else? What else? the it's it's this weird combination between those machining problems, the buttons that we're making, we're making them out of 440C stainless, we're heat treating them, um we're polishing the feature, we're tumbling them, and all that stuff, the surface finish of a tiny little 1 16th radius matters critically.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So if it's not tumbled enough, it has to be hand polished. um And how that, yes, which turned out to be our heat treat.
John S: Was this the porosity material?
John S: No kidding.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, and the material's fine.
John S: Explain.
johngrimsmo: I didn't explain this? Yeah,
John S: thought we talked We talked a lot about i don't remember a conclusion.
johngrimsmo: yeah. Conclusion is, um like, we we went to our local heat treat place. We talked to their metallurgist. I called up, um like, I have the cert from McMaster, so I know where this material came from.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And with the heat heat lot number and all that stuff. And then I called one of our other suppliers, Alexandria, where we get all of our 17-4 from.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um They also sell the same material. And he's like, let me look up the spec sheet for what we have in stock. And it is the same heat lot of material as what McMaster has in stock.
John S: hu That's hilarious.
johngrimsmo: And he's like, we have a lot of it. And they probably have a lot of it. And like, I don't know if it's this batch of material because he's like, nobody else is complaining. And I'm like, okay, sure, sure.
John S: Yeah, right, right.
johngrimsmo: Well, I'm having this issue. What could it be? And I think our heat treat, because there's like the austetizing temperature, 2000 degrees or whatever. And then there's the temper temperatures and the soak times and all this stuff plays a role in how all the grains of carbide collect in the material.
johngrimsmo: And they like literally attract to each other. when at melting temperature. um And i I try to visualize it as all these little grains of carbide are attracting to each other into a clump.
johngrimsmo: And those clumps become big enough that when we polish it, they get ripped out. And then a hole is created. And if you alter your heat treat temperature, and our heat treat guy suggested this too, he's like, take it down by a hundred degrees from 1950 to 1850.
johngrimsmo: And that will make a world of difference because you're at the upper end of happiness and bring you down to more the lower end, the middle end.
John S: Interesting. Okay.
johngrimsmo: And then you mess with your temper to get the hardness. And so we did that and it's not perfect, but it's way better. No more big chunks, just tiny little chunks now. So it's like, it's better.
John S: But I would almost say that that's like Cause you're picky. Like this matters, but it's not like you were, it's not like you had a ah gas leak on your heat treat furnace and that it was off 300 degrees or like it was leaking in ambient air.
johngrimsmo: yeahp Yeah. Yeah.
John S: This is more just a tweak, I guess. know. Not getting wrong.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John S: Right.
johngrimsmo: No, and we were we were in spec before, but at the upper end of spec. And it's like, yes, it's hard.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Maybe that's the only goal for some people. We also want polishability. We also want not these visible specs, which is ah is more caveats to your recipe. you know
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So if you want that and that and that and that bring you into this range. And the guys are still spending, i believe, too long polishing them, but they're it's required to get the result that they want. It makes me wonder if a different material is the answer um instead of 440C.
johngrimsmo: You know, something else got to stainless, got to be hard, got to be polishable, shiny. And that reduces the possibilities quite a bit pretty quickly.
John S: Yeah. The other thing that randomly I was reading somewhere that, um, heat treat ovens have consumable type parts in it, like the probes so forth.
John S: So like, it wouldn't be crazy as much heat treat as you do that. Like you're, you're, you're off a hundred degrees too.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And we check this and we replace them every many months.
John S: Oh, you're way ahead of me.
johngrimsmo: um Yeah, but but that's a lesson we have to learn the hard way.
John S: Okay. Sorry.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And then one of our guys, Larry, he used to work in an aluminum foundry. And he's like, oh, yeah, we had on schedule like like twice a week. We would calibrate our sensors because it was that important.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: They got replaced every two months or whatever.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um And he's like, I don't know why we're not doing that here. Well, one, they're not cheap. And do we need to? And how long can we push it? And like, we don't know what we're doing. So let's learn together.
John S: Yeah. Right. Right. Hmm.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John S: Your commentary earlier about building a process around the Fjall reminded me of a weird, I wouldn't call it a problem, but like, I'm glad we discovered it, which is that we machined the Torx pattern for the mechanical puck chuck and the screw has a Torx 40.
John S: And um I went to use one today and I was like, oh the 40 doesn't fit, it must be a 30, the 30 wasn't bad. was like, that's kind of odd. So the next time I saw Alex was like, hey, it's ah it's a 30, right? He's like, no, it's 40. I'm like, well, my 40 don't fit.
John S: And it reminds me of like one of the most painful early lessons I learned with Strike Mark when we were making this GoPro Picatinny mouse was like, holy cow, there's a lot of variance in Picatinny rails out there.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: And somewhat ironically, doesn't even matter what the spec is. doesn't matter what the drawing is. doesn't matter what the go, no, go gauge is because the go, no gauge is what but the the customer has, whether it's an AR-15 rail or in this case, the screwdriver.
John S: So it's like, we could find, actually we were debating, how do you, is are there gauges or specs there must be for Torx?
johngrimsmo: There are, yeah.
John S: But yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, you can go buy plug gauges for Torx.
John S: Okay.
johngrimsmo: They're expansive, though.
John S: Well, we'll probably buy them, but I also might, don't really care. First off, this is not a you know, overhead lifting application where something matters that much.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: And if my, actually the one that doesn't fit ironically is a, is a WIA set. So it's nothing, it's not, it's not some junk piece, but ah yeah, we need to make sure they fit full stuff.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
johngrimsmo: Yep. And there is variation brand to brand, even ah same brand. Like we machine our T9 Torx into all the screws, all the pivots, um quite a like thousands of parts a month or whatever.
John S: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: And our check is the the biggest Bondos Torx driver we can find.
John S: yeah
johngrimsmo: The one that fits the tightest.
John S: Yeah, right.
johngrimsmo: That's our standard. We have thousands of them.
John S: Exactly.
johngrimsmo: But it's like, they're i don't know how they're made. They're not precisely machined. They're probably pressed or whatever, like rolled or stamped or whatever.
John S: know, stamped, I think. Yeah. Or forged.
johngrimsmo: And there's variation in that too.
John S: Sorry. ah Stamped.
johngrimsmo: And like, it would suck for us to make Torxes that our Torxes, our torque rents that we don't fit with a knife doesn't fit that exact screw.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: like
John S: Exactly.
johngrimsmo: right So it's like, err on the side of sloppiness, but like don't go too sloppy.
John S: Right. yeah
johngrimsmo: And i've I've looked into buying those Torx plug gauges, but I feel like they were $1,000 or something dumb. And I'm like, nah, nah, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good.
John S: Oh, really? Yeah. If there's that much, we won't. Because again, I don't it's you don't care because we're not going to, we're going to err on the side of having a couple of foul clearance, period, full stop, whatever.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John S: Yeah. Okay, i wanted to share, I'm super happy with where I'm at on the 1500 MX.
johngrimsmo: to
John S: um Got a fixture plate on it and then had, um actually it's kind of nice.
johngrimsmo: yeah
johngrimsmo: you finally you finally got saunders to make you a fixture plate
John S: Yeah, we got a fixture plate made on it. ah Well, some of it was self-imposed. First off, we sold out, then we were we wanted to have it on and we wanted to take some product photos since it's rare to have a new machine where you can have a clean install example.
John S: um but So the fixture plate has a six inch vise on the right side. The six inch vise we just machined with some diamond pins so it drops on the fixture plate perfectly and you can take it off, remove it with zero hassle and stress.
johngrimsmo: Nice.
johngrimsmo: And you can screw it into the fixture plate with the default mounting locations on the vise.
John S: um
John S: Yes, you clamp through the casting flanges or toe clamps, whatever you want.
johngrimsmo: Got it.
John S: um And the truth is that six inch vices are great, like very versatile, easy to use for many things. On the left side, we have two mechanical puck chucks and That will serve as the platform for a little mini strip plate that has mod vices on it.
johngrimsmo: yeah hmm
John S: So that's example A. ah Those mini vices, period like there's a 5th axis one, we have those China electrode vices, but like just super easy, small, whatever. um We bought a, I think it said this, a magnet.
John S: So we have a actual wrench activated magnet that you can put on the puck chuck on off. We have a another strip fixture that's a piece of aluminum that spans both puck chucks that is already decked and ready for super glue.
John S: So if you want to super glue something, you have a blank fixture just drop on there and use a super glue technique. And then finally, we have a three-jaw chuck on a puck chuck so that you can drop that on there for, so then the tool numbers.
johngrimsmo: Yes.
John S: So PathPilot does what Haas doesn't do, which is very it very readily out of the box, it combinates tools in and out of the ATC. So we can have, i don't remember, is it 20 tools in the ATC?
johngrimsmo: Okay. Nice.
John S: but we can have 200 more tools set up.
johngrimsmo: That's it should be.
John S: And if it's, yeah, so when you program it in Fusion or drum roll, gonna try to use tool path on this. um And it uses three tools that I need to see, and then it reaches a tool that's not, it just puts that tool away and says, hey, hand load tool 44,
John S: forty four and then it'll resume when you're there. So for the prototype nature of this, building that tool library, um having the work holding set up in Fusion and at the machine ready to go, the tools on, as the Tormach sells, the machine sheet that wall control built into it.
johngrimsmo: Nice.
John S: So you've you've got your, we put started putting the torque wrenches and speedwise handle that you need right there on the machine.
johngrimsmo: Yes.
John S: I'm just like, it's like that first time in 10 years where you're able to start from scratch and do it right. And and I'm doing it right.
johngrimsmo: yes Yeah, yeah, that's so cool. It's like the ultimate expression of this is what a puck chuck was meant for.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Like, like, here's, here's a setup that just works. Because now all you need is two puck chucks on the side and you have what six different fixturing setups which swap out in about three seconds.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So cool.
John S: You need to make a little brass part, done. The tools are there.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: part of or like just don't There's no barrier to doing stuff on it, which I love.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Mm hmm.
John S: It's still really weird using a Tormach that has a table tool probe and a so wireless spindle, like Renishaw probe. It's very strange to me.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. yeah
John S: Yeah. But yeah.
johngrimsmo: I like it.
John S: Yeah. What's on tap for you today?
johngrimsmo: I'm going to finalize the hard milling critical features on the field blades. have some
John S: On the Kern.
johngrimsmo: um I'll consider it. like It occurred to me yesterday and I was like
John S: Just kidding. Get Kern to you at yesterday.
johngrimsmo: and It occurred to me.
John S: Okay.
johngrimsmo: um It's only a two, maybe three tool jobs. It's not the end of the world to put that on the current and the fixtures like palette change ah automatically. um Anyway,
johngrimsmo: Okay, i' I'll think about that. Point is, I have some new toolpath strategies, not just thermal issues that I want to do, but there's actual features that I'm changing ever so slightly, which I think will reduce a lot of the problems that we're having.
John S: okay
johngrimsmo: And I've only learned this through making dozens and dozens of these fails. And and I've put myself in line at the end of the line. like I check all the knives before they get cleaned and shipped. um And I'm learning this. I'm seeing it. And it's it's really, really cool to be able to do this. And I'm pretty sure...
johngrimsmo: within the next few blades that I machine, I'll be able to nail this and they will just be like, yes, every time that's exactly what I want. um So that is super duper cool. And one thing I noticed yesterday is, so I made, you know, the first hundred fields, I'll show you on the video, but it's got the speed holes.
John S: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: And then now I made a handle with no speed holes.
John S: Yep. Oh, o interesting.
johngrimsmo: and So I took out the speed holes and I made it smooth pattern. So it's just full crisp machining. And I'll do this on the mic. If I push the button and let the blade free swing, this is the old knife, and this is the new knife.
John S: Oh, definitely. It's freer rotation on this new knife.
johngrimsmo: And it sounds, can you hear the sound difference?
John S: Mm-hmm.
John S: Yeah, slightly higher pitch.
johngrimsmo: it's Yeah, it's it's like the new one has duller thud and the older one is more like a tink, tink, tink, tink. um And I think the speed holes are creating resonant vibration, something like the new one's just got more mass.
John S: Well, there's an air gap that you're also see effectively sealing up a little bit. The air has got to be displaced out of the one without the speed holes.
johngrimsmo: A little bit, yeah, sure. That's a good point, yeah.
John S: Those are speed drains, John. Air drains.
johngrimsmo: Exactly, yeah.
John S: hurt air drains
johngrimsmo: So it's cool to see these differences because the first time I flipped it, I'm like, it sounds different. i mean, I like it, but it sounds different.
John S: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And it's so much fun just going so deep onto a product that when you flip it open, you're like, it sounds better. It's like, that's not the purpose of this product, but I'm like, I like it.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: ah
John S: That granted that a modern two, three months ago on the Wilman side, I don't remember what it was a fixture or part or something. And he was just like, it like wouldn't come out and he realized it's cause it's like air gap sealed in there and you're like, Oh yeah, I'll take that.
johngrimsmo: Yes. yeah Yeah, that's my one and only focus for the rest of the day is get that done.
John S: Yeah. Oh,
John S: Good. I appreciate you accompanying. I got to run because have a 330 meeting on the other side of town and a buddy who happens to have a shop right next to their their fab shop. And he's like, I need to buy CNC mill. He's like, we have a little bridge port. We do all this work.
John S: I need to get CNC mill. He's like, will you come look at some of the parts we want to make? I'm like, he's done us some solids over the time. So I'm like, absolutely.
johngrimsmo: Cool.
John S: So i'm going to run down there and ah spend OPM.
johngrimsmo: Sounds great, man.
John S: Yeah. I'll see you next week.
johngrimsmo: Okay, take care. Bye.
John S: Bye.
