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#409 Hardmill all the things
2.7k Plays4 days ago
TOPICS:
- Mentality around tariffs
- Button lock geometry
- Buy prussian blue
- Hardmill all the things
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Business of Machining
00:00:00
johngrimsmo
Good morning and welcome to the Business of Machining, episode 409. My name is John Grimsmo.
00:00:06
John S
And my name is John Saunders.
00:00:07
johngrimsmo
And this is our manufacturing podcast where we talk about our businesses and all the ups and downs and struggles in the world, but mostly specifically localized to what we're working on and what what is happening to us as we try to you know grow our manufacturing businesses and and have fun doing it.
00:00:23
John S
Yeah.
00:00:24
johngrimsmo
Because I kind of, you know, I was born for this. Like this is, I've i've found my my thing. Maybe I haven't yet fine-tuned my exact perfect role in, you know, the next 10 years kind of thing, but I do think about it a lot.
00:00:34
John S
Yeah.
00:00:37
johngrimsmo
And I think you you love what do you do.
00:00:41
John S
I do.
Impact of Tariffs and Trade Policies
00:00:42
John S
And in a weird way, I'm going to take that as a transition and segment to talk about tariffs.
00:00:46
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:00:47
John S
Um, because, well, there's no reason to to, my take is there's no reason to avoid it.
00:00:49
johngrimsmo
I was trying to avoid that whole conversation. but No, I know. Yeah, you're right. Right.
00:00:56
John S
Um, first off our business, our podcast is called the business of machining. And I think maybe what differentiates us from the other wonderful podcasts out there is trying to talk candidly about the business aspect of this.
00:01:08
johngrimsmo
Thank you.
00:01:08
John S
Um, Spoiler alert. don't have any answers, but what I want to talk about more is the mentality behind it. um Not everyone has to agree with me, but I think and in times of uncertainty, I certainly enjoy hearing people who have opinions rooted in some basis of existence or not so much expertise, because I think a lot of us are in.
00:01:28
John S
um a lot of us are in new territory and the folks that are have studied past trade wars or are truly um you know political scientists economic experts are not necessarily boots on the ground practical small business entrepreneurs um and so and frankly certainly the intent isn't ah isn't to get political in this conversation but i also don't have a problem saying, you i tend to be more pro-business, more pro-conservative, but on the flip side, that doesn't mean that's a but broad broad-based endorsement of everything. you know It's kind of like the beauty of, i hope, America, the modern era, civilization is to have like-minded people who may have different beliefs be able to enjoy life and go through this journey together.
Clarence Thomas Documentary Mention
00:02:15
johngrimsmo
Mm-hmm.
00:02:15
John S
Um, random, random shout out to a wonderful documentary on Clarence Thomas, just the U S Supreme court, uh, justice. And he was, um, the I'm spoiling it. So I guess pause it if you don't want to hear this, but, um, he grew up, uh,
00:02:33
John S
very much impoverished, liberal or or so forth, and sort of transitioned into becoming a staunch conservative, um but then also became incredibly close with Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who's pretty much in the extreme opposite of that. And they had dinner every Sunday night. um aye I choose to look up to that.
00:02:51
John S
um doesn't make me less of a person and it doesn't mean that anybody listening is all of a sudden going to have a eureka moment and change who they are but you are going to see a lot of noise of people that are i think victimizing themselves and the reality is there's nothing i can do so wednesday afternoon we recorded this there is nothing i can do and there's nothing that john krisville can do to change what trump is doing with the tariffs what jinping is doing with the tariffs um
00:02:51
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
Strategies for Business Uncertainty
00:03:15
John S
But I do think we need to start to be smart about recognizing the one thing that is certain is we're in a period of uncertainty. um I think, ah you know, the this sort of cliche, you can't go bankrupt if you don't want creditors. So um if you have creditors, the best thing you can do is have cash or be be conscious of what your overhead is, your runway is.
00:03:34
John S
um to recognize um it it is worth trying to read up a few things. do you want to um buy more material? might be too late because frankly, the last thing you want to do is lock in tariffs.
00:03:45
John S
We were talking about that on WhatsApp yesterday. Like i thing you want to do is pay for a machine to cross the border today at some, you know, double digit tariff percentage only to have them change soon. And they probably will change, but we don't know.
00:03:56
johngrimsmo
Yeah, we all hope so, for sure.
00:03:58
John S
um
00:03:59
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:03:59
John S
But, you know, at the end of the day, I'm sitting here on this call with you because in, you know, as a kid, I i shot guns. I shot guns that led to high school shooting team. the High school shooting team led to a product idea. A product idea led to wanting to bring a product to market in college and my first job after college. That led me to hire an engineer who we needed in parts of machine. That led me to find a TegCNC when i was living in new York City. That led to this YouTube channel and kind of what you just said.
00:04:27
John S
I found my calling in life, full stop. And nothing can take that from me. Tariffs can't take that from me.
00:04:31
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah, sure.
00:04:31
John S
Now, tariffs can take my business from me. They're not going to, but they could. um and and they probably will, um for better or worse, probably for worse, this will be
00:04:35
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:04:40
John S
um a a setback in the global economy. And I don't, I'm not smart enough to have an ah opinion on whether that's right or wrong. I think that my point is it's happening period. Like like it or not, you know, globalization is being unwound and whether, um, I personally kind of think it's nice to know that like, I don't need to keep buying $7 junk imported from East Asia on the flip side.
00:04:50
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah.
00:05:01
John S
There's a lot of businesses that have built a phenomenal,
00:05:03
johngrimsmo
Yep. Totally.
00:05:06
John S
importing line of stuff from there that you and I are beneficiaries of. right You walk through my shop, you know, you see a ton of that stuff.
00:05:12
johngrimsmo
only
00:05:14
John S
um and And that's going to change.
Personal Business Journeys and Tariff Impacts
00:05:17
John S
So I'll pause for a second if you, as I'm kind of going on a tie right here. you have anything you want
00:05:21
johngrimsmo
I mean, one example, for better or worse, I was talking to an injection molding company and we were talking about the mold that they got made. And they're like, we could get it made in North America for about 100 grand or we could get made in Asia for 10 grand.
00:05:32
John S
Yeah.
00:05:35
johngrimsmo
And that is a massive, massive difference with about the same turnaround time or faster from Asia.
00:05:37
John S
Right, right.
00:05:40
johngrimsmo
So they're like, what do you think we're going to do? Like, it changes a lot of things.
00:05:45
John S
Well, there's...
00:05:46
johngrimsmo
But going back
00:05:46
John S
And you hear... There's been... Go ahead.
00:05:48
johngrimsmo
Going back to what you said before about what you can control, that phrase has been seared into my brain for the past five, six years is you can you can control what you can control.
00:05:53
John S
Yeah.
00:05:58
johngrimsmo
In any situation, what what can we do to enact ah to to navigate this, to try new things? um We're actively trying to sell more tos to Canadians and to other markets in the world, which is something we've never really tried to do before.
00:06:07
John S
Yep.
00:06:10
johngrimsmo
Like, we can try that. We can control that. that is That is low-hanging fruit, really, um compared to a lot of other options. Going out of business, no thank you. um What can you do, you know?
00:06:24
John S
Yeah. But, and that comes back to the point I was trying to bring home or mentioned to bring this kind of thesis home is that like happiness comes from within. You can be about as happy as you want to be.
00:06:37
John S
Um, and I, am grateful you know at some point i'll be you know in a retirement home sipping coffee hoping with my wife or or on my deathbed we're gonna call it like looking back and i'm proud of the business i've been built proud of the story that i've told already and will tell tell um and this may be a pretty big bump in the road but like I'm not going to, you I'm happy to debate policy over the proverbial beer with somebody, but at the end of the day, my job is to protect my business and the people are here.
00:07:09
John S
I can't control these things. So it is just a question okay, so what's going to happen with, with costs and the uncertainty is, is far different than knowing how and where to pivot. And we don't know that right now.
00:07:18
johngrimsmo
For sure.
Humor on Trade Policies and Small Business
00:07:19
johngrimsmo
and That's one of the the killers, is the uncertainty.
00:07:19
John S
Um,
00:07:21
johngrimsmo
It adds this nervousness, this this I don't know what step to take because anything could happen tomorrow kind of thing.
00:07:26
John S
Right.
00:07:27
johngrimsmo
so
00:07:27
John S
and And certainly there's a lot of what Trump does that feels like a petulant fifth grader. On the flip side, there is some humor in his kind of like, well, you you're doing 40%. I'm going to just add 40% back on. And then all of a sudden people come to the table.
00:07:41
John S
You know, I'd be curious to see where it shakes out. um But, you know, all of us i kind of joke, you know, buckle up. but
00:07:51
johngrimsmo
Yeah, exactly.
00:07:53
John S
Um, I, yeah. Um, the, i was goingnna make a comment about like reshoring and production. Oh, so this, the China thing, it's obviously more than just China, but the China thing is so funny because it does get this knock of like, oh, you know, good luck outsourcing.
00:08:08
John S
It's it's junk. It's crap. And then it's like, it's like, man, go open an iPhone 16. That thing is just like ridiculously off the hook.
00:08:12
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:08:15
John S
Well done. So, um, I,
00:08:16
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:08:17
John S
I'm careful not to call, call, let the pot call the kettle black. Cause you know, you can drive around America and I know you're Canadian. So forgive me. Cause I, it's one of those moments again, where it's like awkward. Cause I view you as my peer, not as a foreigner.
00:08:28
johngrimsmo
sure
Podcast Preferences and Rolex Discussion
00:08:29
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah.
00:08:30
John S
Um, again, I'm not allowed to make these jokes anymore, but give us some time. Um, but, uh, no, like I, Look, drive around our country and I'm proud of our country and the era we live in and the opportunities we've all been blessed with on the flip side.
00:08:44
John S
You drive around our country and find some pretty major states of disrepair and and things that need to be fixed and junk and scumbag people and bubbleh blah, blah, blah. And yeah, that's all.
00:08:56
John S
Actually, do I was just saying I'll end my rant, but i I kind of have one more thing I wanted to rant about today, but I'll save it.
00:09:02
johngrimsmo
Okay, yeah, I'll let you rant it later. um One of my things, you mentioned earlier, podcasts and this podcast, obviously. um In our WhatsApp chat, we were talking about some other podcasts and Rob put up a little clip of this podcast.
00:09:16
johngrimsmo
And it was, the broad strokes is it was somebody learning about a new thing that they're like, wow, that's that's the most amazing thing in the world. And we are experts at this thing.
00:09:28
johngrimsmo
And it was like kind of painful to to watch. And I made the comment. i was like, this is why I don't listen to podcasts.
00:09:34
John S
yeah
00:09:34
johngrimsmo
um Because I don't. I just don't spend the time to listen to podcasts. um And then Rob said, you should try it sometime. And it took me up took me about a week and a half to think about that again and realize, think he meant you should try to start a podcast. Because he was the one that got to start us got us to start this podcast.
00:09:53
John S
Correct.
00:09:53
johngrimsmo
Does that make sense?
00:09:54
John S
Well, no, now you've lost me on the... Oh. Got it.
00:09:56
johngrimsmo
Well, you should try podcasting sometime.
00:09:57
John S
but you
00:09:59
johngrimsmo
That's not exactly what he said.
00:09:59
John S
oh
00:10:00
johngrimsmo
i don't know. I just, I re-heard it a different way and I was thinking about it later and I thought that was kind of funny.
00:10:06
John S
Yeah, it's funny.
00:10:06
johngrimsmo
um Also, the podcast you told me about last week, the Rolex podcast with Acquired um or the Acquired podcast about Rolex. So I turned it on as I was driving home one day and I'm like, five hours?
00:10:20
John S
Oh, dude, it flies by.
00:10:20
johngrimsmo
What the heck?
00:10:21
John S
First all, you can listen to it on time and a half or double.
00:10:21
johngrimsmo
What? Sure, sure. that That absolutely floored me, a five-hour podcast. And then I told Eric, and he's like, oh, that's not normal that's not abnormal. like There's a lot of history podcasts, a lot of multi-multi-hour podcasts.
00:10:32
John S
Yeah.
00:10:35
johngrimsmo
You just take them in chunks. And it just kind of shocked me, because I'm not used to that.
00:10:38
John S
Yeah, we're 45 minutes of here.
00:10:39
johngrimsmo
ah Yeah, it flies by, but um yeah, I listened the first 10 minutes, and I'm like, as I was driving home, and like, yeah, you can see this.
00:10:41
John S
fills out of here
00:10:47
johngrimsmo
I might keep it going, but we'll see.
00:10:51
John S
Shout out to Dan from, Dan Mazur from Kern. Awesome guy, great member of our community. Emailed me a very apt correction, which I owe everybody apology for, which is that Rolex they estimate makes 1 million watches per year.
00:11:06
John S
I said 12 million. So that's a factor of 12.
00:11:07
johngrimsmo
You said 1 million per month.
00:11:09
John S
Correct. So that's a big off.
00:11:10
johngrimsmo
And I heard that in the beginning of that podcast as well. Yeah.
00:11:13
John S
Okay, which I'll stand by my comment that 80,000 or million a million year, but about 80,000 a month is still mass manufacturing from ah both a production standpoint as well as you know luxury goods standpoint, but it's certainly not 12 main.
00:11:21
johngrimsmo
Bonkers. Yeah.
00:11:28
John S
So let that correction be noted.
00:11:29
johngrimsmo
Sure.
00:11:32
johngrimsmo
Mm-hmm.
00:11:36
John S
All right, I had
Technical Challenges in Knife Manufacturing
00:11:38
John S
a note. um don't even know why i wrote it down. Fjell is now into Steven's hands, question mark, brother, kern
00:11:42
johngrimsmo
this is I read that in my notes too and I was like ah it's not yet yeah I know I know I was getting flack from Erica earlier today about that um
00:11:49
John S
John.
00:11:56
johngrimsmo
two Two main aspects to the hard milling on the Fjall. One is the detent, like opening the knife, and one is the lockup, the locking of the knife. And both are controlled during hard milling as two separate features of the blade.
00:12:02
John S
Okay.
00:12:06
johngrimsmo
I've got the detent absolutely dialed. I'm super, super happy with that. Fixes all the problems we've had before. The lockup right now, the button is getting stuck at the top of the travel. When you open the knife, the button sometimes.
00:12:18
johngrimsmo
um
00:12:18
John S
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:12:19
johngrimsmo
Sometimes enough that I'm not happy enough with it yet. And so I'm working on that and I'm learning a lot more about taper angles and how they engage, how the button taper engages with the blade taper.
00:12:30
johngrimsmo
And I'm asking myself all these questions. Do the two tapers need to be matching? Do they need to be unmatching? Like one's four degrees, one's three and a half.
00:12:36
John S
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:12:39
johngrimsmo
But is it, you know, three and a half or four and a half? do you want it bigger? do you want it smaller? I don't know. So I'm testing. And that the hardness of the blade matters. The hardness of the button matters. The surface finish of the button matters. The surface finish of the blade matters.
00:12:52
johngrimsmo
And a couple of the first hundred that have been shipped and out already, customers are reaching out with this button stick problem. It wasn't a problem for most of them, but it is a problem for a few of them. And it's...
00:13:03
johngrimsmo
um Not nice. Well, it doesn't make me feel good to have customers reach out with this problem because I know this is a fixable thing. So i'm I've got this roadblock in front of me right now that it's like I'm not pushing this forward until it's at least way gooder.
00:13:11
John S
Yep.
00:13:18
johngrimsmo
Maybe it's something that we can't eliminate perfectly a million percent of the time, but I can ah can finalize this, what this angle and surface finish issue needs to be. So let's format with that.
00:13:31
johngrimsmo
ah So we're kind of roadblocked on that.
00:13:31
John S
So I'll give you credit. Honestly, thanks for sharing. Cause I know we do acknowledge this is a public podcast. It's hard to talk about stuff where you're like, crap, the product that's for sale or whatever.
00:13:37
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:13:41
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:13:41
John S
but
00:13:41
johngrimsmo
and I am the bottleneck and I'm not happy about it, but it's like, where am I willing to compromise my standards and where am I willing to put my foot down and be like, guys, I'm going to get this right very soon days.
00:13:43
John S
Yeah.
00:13:53
johngrimsmo
And then you're not going to get any parts until, until then. And that's what I had to tell Eric this morning, um you know, 20 minutes before the podcast, but yeah,
00:13:57
John S
Mm-hmm.
00:14:06
John S
you want Can you share, the extent you're willing, just because think it's interesting to learn, but also to kind of get a peek inside of your head.
00:14:13
johngrimsmo
Sure.
00:14:13
John S
um You have a taper on a pin and you have a taper on the knife. These are relatively small.
00:14:18
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:14:18
John S
The surface area here is infinitesimal, right?
00:14:21
johngrimsmo
Mm-hmm.
00:14:22
John S
And it's locking. You want to like describe how you start breaking this down and how you problem solve it?
00:14:26
johngrimsmo
So, yeah, that's a good point. So on on the button lock Fjell, as you open the blade, the button is sprung down a little bit, and then when you open the blade, click, yeah, so this little audible click.
00:14:35
John S
It pops back up.
00:14:39
johngrimsmo
The button pops up and taper locks into a tapered feature on the blade.
00:14:39
John S
Yeah. Okay.
00:14:45
johngrimsmo
i The way I've designed it, I actually have two tapers, one on the inside of the slot and one on the outside of the slot. So it's dual tapering, um kind of cupped on the left side and the right side, and the button is shoving in the middle.
00:14:54
John S
Okay.
00:15:00
johngrimsmo
now it would help if they were visual here, but there's basically, if you imagine the blade and the pivot hole, there's an arc cut into the periphery of the blade.
00:15:04
John S
Yeah.
00:15:10
johngrimsmo
And one end of that arc is the detent and the other end is this tapered lock feature. So as the button shoves up into the tapered feature, is it possibly spreading those two arcs apart to a small degree?
00:15:22
John S
Oh, interesting. No way. no way.
00:15:24
johngrimsmo
I don't know. I don't know. It gets pretty thin at the top there.
00:15:26
John S
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:26
johngrimsmo
So maybe to a small degree, I don't know.
00:15:28
John S
Okay.
00:15:30
johngrimsmo
Um, And it doesn't happen all the time. It happens with not necessarily a harder flick, but ah a certain type of flick. um
00:15:37
John S
Mm-hmm.
00:15:37
johngrimsmo
So I'm trying to wrap my head around. And like the hardness of the button, one or two points, could make a big difference here. Because is it going to deform? Is the blade going to deform? you know They all have Hertzian contact stress and points, right?
00:15:47
John S
We're aware for sure.
00:15:51
johngrimsmo
Like which one's going to bend into the next before denting?
00:15:51
John S
Yeah.
00:15:55
johngrimsmo
And it's going to have this kind of elastic deformation where it just you know, conforms, but isn't permanently dented. It's just kind of shoved in there and stuck. um And ideally, I don't want to change the button because it's a lathe part. We currently turn it soft. We heat treat it. We polish it. We tumble it. We do all this stuff. If that can stay the same, my life is easier.
00:16:17
johngrimsmo
it's If I can change the blade angle, which is all 3D machined, I can alter that on a blade by blade basis, which is great. um
00:16:25
John S
Yeah, right.
00:16:26
johngrimsmo
But even the surface finish on the button on this little tapered feature, which is about 60 thousands long and 0.135 diameter inch.
00:16:34
John S
Okay. Oh, it's bigger than I thought it might be.
00:16:40
johngrimsmo
um
00:16:40
John S
Yeah, that's small.
00:16:42
johngrimsmo
Right. So like three millimeters diameter, you know, eighth inch pretty much with this little three degree per side taper. So six degrees inclusive. And then, yeah.
00:16:51
John S
Oh, it's that steep? Oh, John, holy nuts.
00:16:55
johngrimsmo
Right. And it works.
00:16:56
John S
Yeah, you're...
00:16:57
johngrimsmo
maybe Maybe the answer is four degrees. Maybe it's four and a half. um Maybe three degrees is too steep. Because imagine if it's vertical, it'll lock permanently. Like it's not going to taper itself out.
00:17:05
John S
Sure.
00:17:09
johngrimsmo
But you need it basically, yeah.
00:17:09
John S
This is a draft angle of an injection mold type of situation where you just want to be in it, right?
00:17:13
johngrimsmo
Yeah, you want it to contact, but now gets stuck.
00:17:17
John S
Yep.
00:17:18
johngrimsmo
So there's a lot going through my brain as I'm trying to do this. And it's the weird thing is it's all a feel like my finger is sore from flipping my knife 2000 times as I'm trying to, to figure this out.
00:17:25
John S
Yeah.
00:17:33
johngrimsmo
Hmm.
00:17:35
John S
Can I ask how, um, you didn't ask for help, so forgive me, but I'm just curious when you take a step back, you know, how do other people handle this? How do other knife makers or other applications tackle this sort of thing?
00:17:46
johngrimsmo
I don't know. It's a really good question. And there are other button ive lock knives out there and I've felt various many ones over the years. I think they have a much shallower angle than three degrees, like seven or something.
00:17:59
John S
So more like a cat, well, don't know what a cat taper is. Cat taper is a lot, like 15 degrees something.
00:18:02
johngrimsmo
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So more instead of being perfectly vertical and mine's three degrees in and more like closer in like a triangle as opposed to a, um you know, almost vertical cylinder.
00:18:05
John S
Spindle taper.
00:18:12
John S
Yeah. Straight wall. Silver. John, John, buy one today.
00:18:15
johngrimsmo
Um,
00:18:17
John S
Okay.
00:18:18
johngrimsmo
I mean, know we have some here, but everything is different about how they're doing it and how I'm doing it. And of course, I tried to reinvent the wheel and I'm now suffering the consequence of doing that.
00:18:26
John S
Yeah.
Maintaining High Production Standards
00:18:28
johngrimsmo
and And our standards are quite a bit higher than theirs.
00:18:28
John S
Right.
00:18:30
johngrimsmo
a lot of companies just deal with the lock stick or they don't lock up as well um because the taper can slip, things like that. um It's not uncommon, maybe not so much for button locks, but...
00:18:42
johngrimsmo
there's lot of customers who bought knives that are like, oh, you just put some pencil graphite on the locking face and that gets rid of the stick.
00:18:48
John S
Yeah.
00:18:48
johngrimsmo
and And like, I don't, I don't accept that answer.
00:18:50
John S
Unsubscribe. Yeah, that right.
00:18:52
johngrimsmo
I don't want my customers to have to do that.
00:18:53
John S
But if you... if and So we're talking zero degree would be a cylinder. Four degree is what you're doing.
00:18:59
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:19:00
John S
45 degree, which would be basically you could use the knife to like, you could actuate the button by pushing the knife handle yourself.
00:19:02
johngrimsmo
The chamfer.
00:19:07
John S
It wouldn't lock up. Is that fair to, okay, got it.
00:19:08
johngrimsmo
Correct. Correct. Yeah, exactly. you've got to find the sweet spot um while also having enough meat.
00:19:11
John S
Yeah.
00:19:15
johngrimsmo
Because the surface is so small, if I go 45 degrees, it gets smaller, smaller, smaller, smaller.
00:19:17
John S
Yeah.
00:19:20
johngrimsmo
smaller Now you have a chamfer that's like 10 thou long, and you're expecting that to be your...
00:19:23
John S
You have more surface area with ah with a bigger angle though.
00:19:27
johngrimsmo
No.
00:19:27
John S
The hypotenuse would grow. Yeah.
00:19:30
johngrimsmo
Yeah, but the steeper you go...
00:19:30
John S
Okay.
00:19:32
johngrimsmo
um Like mine is steep, so it's a very long angle from vertical. And if you go 45, it increases higher and higher and higher.
00:19:39
John S
Okay.
00:19:40
johngrimsmo
So you get smaller.
00:19:40
John S
okay
00:19:42
johngrimsmo
um
00:19:44
johngrimsmo
And I mean, I'm certainly in the right range. I'm just in this range where 10% of the time on some of the knives, it gets stuck. And I'm trying to find what is that variable? Is it surface finish on the button?
00:19:56
johngrimsmo
Is it the 3D machine surface finish on the blade, which I'm hard milling, good tools. It looks really, really, really freaking good under the microscope.
00:20:00
John S
Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:04
johngrimsmo
um Or is it an angle, angular thing, which I've tried a few different angles. Or another thing I just realized yesterday, I put these buttons on our optical comparator with the high nine glass scales and I get super good accuracy and I have the computer hooked up so I can measure angles and stuff.
00:20:16
John S
yeah
00:20:20
johngrimsmo
And I measured angles, those two angles, like I measured it under the light box and I measured it a bunch of times and then I rotated the part, measured it again, tried the next part, measured each part six times with two rotations.
00:20:33
johngrimsmo
And they're not six degrees inclusive, like three on each side.
00:20:36
John S
okay
00:20:37
johngrimsmo
They're closer to seven. And so I'm like, hold on. The ones I made on the Williman are exactly three degrees per side. The ones we're making on the Tornos are three and a half degrees per side.
00:20:48
John S
Proof that mils are better than lathes.
00:20:48
johngrimsmo
What the heck? What the heck? Yeah, exactly. Um,
00:20:51
John S
can i Can I make a suggestion? Take the tornos, rough turn a pin, leave 2,000 on the taper, like or leave 5,000 on the tapered surface. Make yourself a little fixture.
00:21:03
John S
Put that fixture on the kern with the same fixture, like super glue, I don't care, where next to the knife. And then surface both chamfers with the same tool at the same time.
00:21:16
johngrimsmo
I did wonder about doing that on on the current, on the five axes. Could I get in here? It's a very small part, though.
00:21:24
John S
I believe in you.
00:21:25
johngrimsmo
Yeah. um And then you'd be milling it.
00:21:27
John S
this But this is what we learned at MERN now.
00:21:29
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:21:30
John S
Yeah, but who cares? Like, it's like, make the fixture on the machine you're gonna make the part on. Like, don't, at least as a prototype, I don't care long-term, you'll figure it out, but you gotta figure out, you'll have matching angles because you have the kinematics, the thermal state, the tool, all that will be the same.
00:21:44
johngrimsmo
yeah Yeah. Well, measuring the angle, measuring what's actually happening is is the step I'm at right now. um I wrote a little program in this speedy where I'm hard milling this locking feature to come into the bore and tap, you know, do an X probe and deep print the result, lift up to the other, do another X probe, lift up to the other, do another X
Problem-Solving in Manufacturing
00:22:05
johngrimsmo
probe.
00:22:05
johngrimsmo
So I can calculate the taper like what is actually but has been machined and I need to know.
00:22:08
John S
Yeah.
00:22:10
johngrimsmo
I'm going to do that today. I've wrote the program already. Now I've measured the button at three and a half degrees per side. I'm going to measure the blade, see what is actually happening, and then go from there.
00:22:21
johngrimsmo
So that's that is the step I'm at right now.
00:22:23
John S
Sure.
00:22:23
johngrimsmo
And now that I've realized yesterday that the button is bigger taper than I thought it was, that sort of changes my perception because mathematically the blade is three and a half and now the button measures three and a half.
00:22:28
John S
Yeah.
00:22:35
johngrimsmo
So now I have mating tapers. and I haven't gone bigger on the blade yet, I haven't put a 4 degree or 4.5 degree on the blade to see if that makes a difference.
00:22:39
John S
Yes.
00:22:44
johngrimsmo
To mismatch them.
00:22:46
John S
You have Prussian blue.
00:22:48
johngrimsmo
ah no I have Sharpie.
00:22:51
John S
Yeah, that's okay. Transfer dye. You might want to pick some. My hesitation is measuring stuff like this. You're probably introducing uncertainty errors that I can't even speak to.
00:23:03
johngrimsmo
Yeah, me too.
00:23:05
John S
but That's why I'm like screw measuring, make it on the same machine. Then you, you kind of isolate this error, but also transfer fluid or transfer dye. Um, flapping stuff can help show you what what your contact looks like.
00:23:19
johngrimsmo
So I've used Sharpie to do that. to I Sharpie the part, Sharpie the blade, put it together, look for wear, and I can see some, but I've never really used Dikem or Prussian blue or whatever for this purpose.
00:23:29
John S
Yeah. Pick it up for sure.
00:23:31
johngrimsmo
Is it better?
00:23:33
John S
Way better.
00:23:34
johngrimsmo
Really?
00:23:34
John S
Way better. Yeah. Sharpie is not meant to transfer. You can see the where.
00:23:38
johngrimsmo
It tends to blot, yeah.
00:23:40
John S
Yeah.
00:23:40
johngrimsmo
And it tends to rub off.
00:23:40
John S
Go watch.
00:23:41
johngrimsmo
Interesting.
00:23:42
John S
If you want to spend five minutes, go watch. I think I've done one. Adam Booth has done bunch of people have done videos on um hand scraping. And this is what you what you you do.
00:23:49
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah. Oh, I've seen it, yeah.
00:23:50
John S
You put the pressure. If I'm saying that word wrong, I'm going to feel terrible here.
00:23:54
johngrimsmo
I think you're right, yeah.
00:23:55
John S
ah Right? Right.
00:23:55
johngrimsmo
But it's Dicam, right? Same thing?
00:23:57
John S
Well, I don't remember if Dykem is one of the manufacturers of it. um For scrape.
00:24:03
johngrimsmo
And Prussian blue is the category, like the trade name kind thing.
00:24:05
John S
Yeah. Scraping stuff. Yeah, look it up. I think I am, well, regardless of the brand, it's not Dykem like you and I use that's liquid ink.
00:24:15
John S
It's different. It's it's more like a paste or thicker or like a...
00:24:17
johngrimsmo
Really?
00:24:21
johngrimsmo
lee
00:24:24
John S
like a, almost like a lapping compound minus like a, minus the abrasive, obviously.
00:24:28
johngrimsmo
I mean, good good Google says Prussian blue is just a dark pigment. um
00:24:33
John S
Yeah, I think we're getting confused with...
00:24:36
johngrimsmo
But you're looking for a product.
00:24:38
John S
Engineers Blue on Wikipedia. Also known as scraping blue, Prussian blue. is a high pigmented paste used to assist in the mating of two or more components.
00:24:42
johngrimsmo
Okay.
00:24:46
John S
Joseph Whitworth popularized the practice. Prussian blue toolmaking.
00:24:49
johngrimsmo
Interesting.
00:24:50
John S
Yeah. Um...
00:24:51
johngrimsmo
Alright, I will ah look into that because that could help. like I'm using Sharpie for that purpose right now and I'm not the happiest with it because it doesn't transfer well. It tends to flake off sometimes or blot as you're putting it on.
00:25:04
John S
Yeah. I just DM'd you the McMaster sells it.
00:25:06
johngrimsmo
It's just so convenient.
00:25:09
John S
They call it high spot blue marking paste and it comes in a toothpaste tube for 12 bucks.
00:25:11
johngrimsmo
Heck yeah.
00:25:14
John S
Oh, cannot be sold to outside the U S though on McMaster.
00:25:18
johngrimsmo
Seriously?
00:25:20
John S
Yeah.
00:25:20
johngrimsmo
That's rare. There's only a few things that I've seen that are like that, but whatever, I'll find it.
00:25:23
John S
Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:25
johngrimsmo
What
00:25:26
John S
It is also right up there, maybe even worse than um Never Seize. Like I could take a BB, like a, you know, pellet, like, you know, right BB gun pellet and probably coat your whole family with it.
00:25:44
johngrimsmo
what do you mean?
00:25:45
John S
A little goes a long way.
00:25:47
johngrimsmo
Oh, okay, okay.
00:25:47
John S
I mean, I mean, a di a dimple of that thing and you could paint a whole wall.
00:25:52
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:25:52
John S
It's ridiculous. Yeah.
00:25:54
johngrimsmo
of Of the press and blue.
00:25:55
John S
Yes.
00:25:56
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:25:56
John S
ah Sorry, the joke being like, you can't use Never Seize and not get it all over your hands.
00:26:00
johngrimsmo
Got it. Got Got it. Yep. um Okay. couple of thoughts. One, I hope this doesn't send me down a hand scraping rabbit hole because that would be fascinating. And I've been done that a couple of times. I've never actually done it.
00:26:13
johngrimsmo
um Is this what people use for hand scraping or do they use Dicam?
00:26:19
John S
No, you use Prussian blue.
00:26:21
johngrimsmo
Okay. Interesting.
00:26:21
John S
There might be a version of that made by the brand company, Dicum, but no.
00:26:23
johngrimsmo
Yeah, okay. That's that's like...
00:26:25
John S
Dicum to me means it's the fluid that is runny and is like a liquid marker.
00:26:31
johngrimsmo
Interesting. i um I never put that together in my head. i just missed that piece of information, learning about scraping and die cam and all that stuff.
00:26:38
John S
Yeah.
00:26:39
johngrimsmo
Cool. I'm going to look into that. Yeah.
00:26:44
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:26:45
John S
what What's cool, sorry, this is coming back to me now. What's really cool about the Prussian blue is not only it's not binary. In other words, yes, you'll see where it doesn't doesn't contact or transfer. You also will see shades of the blue.
00:26:59
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:27:00
John S
um Now, and yeah something as small as you're doing, that might be quite difficult, and you'll need to keep them.
00:27:03
johngrimsmo
Yeah, I can zoom pretty pretty high on my microscope to be able to see.
00:27:06
John S
Okay.
00:27:08
johngrimsmo
So you would, it's a transfer dial. So you put it, let say, on the button and you watch it transfer onto the blade and you'll see. Yes?
00:27:15
John S
Yes, I'm not totally understanding your whole setup. What you don't want to do is like move the button around, rolling it around, because that obviously you're going to transfer everywhere.
00:27:22
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Sure, sure.
00:27:25
John S
So somehow you need to maintain perpendicularity or do it in situ.
00:27:28
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:28
John S
um
00:27:29
johngrimsmo
Do it in situ and just flip it once and then do it.
00:27:29
John S
But play with it. i
00:27:31
johngrimsmo
um Because right now I'm sharpieing. Oftentimes I sharpen, sharpie both sides and look for wear, not transfer.
00:27:38
John S
Got it.
00:27:39
johngrimsmo
So I'm hoping the sharpie, you know, moves away.
00:27:39
John S
Bye.
00:27:43
johngrimsmo
Oh, that's exciting.
00:27:44
John S
Buy the cleaner, I forget what it, don't remember hey if if alcohol or acid or something cleans up, but you're gonna wanna buy the cleaner because you're gonna start over and and you need the right cleaner.
00:27:47
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:27:55
John S
Otherwise, again, you're just dealing with a mess.
00:27:58
johngrimsmo
A little bit goes a long way. Cool. I'm going to buy that.
00:28:03
John S
Great.
00:28:06
John S
Interesting that your angles are not matching though, for sure.
00:28:10
johngrimsmo
That is very interesting. Yeah. um Like the Willimon part turned out on spec because I had one. We're actually wondering if Angela made the suggestion an hour ago, if heat treat is causing that taper to change because there's some features in there that might
Machining Consistency and Techniques
00:28:26
johngrimsmo
matter.
00:28:26
johngrimsmo
So um on the pin, because we machined it full and then we heat treat the pin, the the button itself.
00:28:27
John S
on the pin.
00:28:32
johngrimsmo
um So I asked Angela to find me a unheat treated button, which we should have scrap parts somewhere. We're going to find out. You're shaking your head
00:28:41
John S
he Heat treat it with 5,000 net stock on a taper, put it on a fixture. Honestly, you can 3D. Dude, okay.
00:28:49
johngrimsmo
It's hard. It's a weird shape part. I've thought about it. Like, how do you fix it up again? Even there's no, you can't put it between centers. um
00:28:57
John S
Send me a picture of it after we hang up.
00:28:57
johngrimsmo
you can't you you can You can't mill it. It's like, sure.
00:29:01
John S
Really? Okay.
00:29:02
johngrimsmo
Yeah. its time I was staring at it going, how do I mill this?
00:29:05
John S
Yeah, yeah. Well, that's right.
00:29:06
johngrimsmo
So, sure.
00:29:06
John S
Maybe I'm underappreciating that.
00:29:08
johngrimsmo
Another option. which brings me into your favorite category of lades. um We could heat treat the whole bar. We could hard turn the whole thing, CBN inserts. We could do in the Nakamura.
00:29:17
John S
Yeah, right. I see.
00:29:19
johngrimsmo
um Can't do it in the Swiss because oil and sparks.
00:29:22
John S
Got it.
00:29:22
johngrimsmo
um So we would have to do it in the Nakamura. It's big investment, big change, reprogram everything. it's We're already making in the Swiss. It just works, but it's not working.
00:29:33
John S
Yeah, yeah, sure.
00:29:35
johngrimsmo
The fact that we're soft turning, what?
00:29:37
John S
Wait, you can, can you run the Swiss without oil pouring onto the part?
00:29:44
johngrimsmo
You can, just don't turn the cooling on.
00:29:47
John S
Yeah, just prototype one that way then. hard Hard turn it on the a Swiss.
00:29:49
johngrimsmo
Yeah, maybe.
00:29:52
John S
We figure out production later, that's easy, but don't mess the knock.
00:29:54
johngrimsmo
Yeah. i don't know, we'll think about that. um But is there enough residual oil everywhere? don't know.
Manufacturing Issues with Knife Components
00:30:05
johngrimsmo
But on one hand, we have a stable process code program tolerances, we've made 200 buttons already and they they work, but they don't work because turning soft 440C stainless steel tears.
00:30:20
John S
Yeah.
00:30:20
johngrimsmo
So if you look at it under the microscope, there are like lines where the insert is clearly tearing the material and it's better in the beginning and it quickly deteriorates within 10 to 50 parts.
00:30:31
johngrimsmo
And then you just have start having these tearing streaks. And once we heat treat them and then we tumble these little buttons, those divots become a real problem for both my detent and my lockup on the blade.
00:30:42
johngrimsmo
Um, so we're sitting there hand polishing everyone trying to get these divots out because they, they lock into the features of your detent or your lockup when there's a groove.
00:30:46
John S
yeah
00:30:52
johngrimsmo
So I kind of want to talk to probably a tooling rep, but I need a really good tooling rep being like, is there, is are the insert we're using to turn this, is it wrong? Cause we're, it's like a tool for medium, hard titanium and, you know, 17, four kind of thing.
00:31:07
johngrimsmo
And works great for that, but maybe it doesn't work for bubble gum, soft stainless steel.
00:31:07
John S
Right, right.
00:31:12
johngrimsmo
Is there better insert?
00:31:14
John S
Hard training is so, like it turns so nice, Sean.
00:31:14
johngrimsmo
Great.
00:31:17
johngrimsmo
I know. And it's tempting.
00:31:18
John S
Can you, you can't, could you make a part on the Kern or Willem with no way at all, completely milled from scratch?
00:31:26
johngrimsmo
I wouldn't want to. Because you get better surface finish turning than milling.
00:31:29
John S
Maybe. Okay. Yeah. Okay.
00:31:32
johngrimsmo
Although I've seen some really good results hard milling on this video so far. It's maybe restructuring my brain here.
00:31:37
John S
yeah
00:31:39
johngrimsmo
But...
00:31:40
John S
Would the military folks as a favor or for a price, would they use one of their tool grinders to grind this part for you?
00:31:47
johngrimsmo
We've thought about that too, because we know quite a few companies that have anchors and whatever.
00:31:52
John S
Yeah.
00:31:52
johngrimsmo
um
00:31:53
John S
Yeah. AB tool.
00:31:54
johngrimsmo
Yeah, I haven't approached anybody for that yet. So I don't know.
00:32:01
John S
The last thing I'd throw out and then I'll shut up is This pin, this whole pin is like what? Smaller than my pinky fingernail, right?
00:32:08
johngrimsmo
like No, imagine an eighth inch end mill with a bigger head on the top just for pushing on.
00:32:08
John S
Okay.
00:32:13
John S
Okay.
00:32:14
johngrimsmo
That's that's the size we're looking at.
00:32:16
John S
So make it 10 or 15 times bigger. um So quite quite large, you know, the size of your thumb or something.
00:32:23
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:32:23
John S
um And machine both parts out of some steel that way at the different angles and sort of look at the behavior and the feel of the two tapers at 10 or 20 times larger size.
00:32:31
johngrimsmo
you Interesting.
00:32:36
John S
Heck, even for free, even 3D print them, because that doesn't cost you a dime for anything.
00:32:40
johngrimsmo
Yeah, to visualize.
00:32:40
John S
Just like... Well, and you'll get a sense of the feel. Like it's obviously three d printing is horribly inaccurate in terms of tolerance compared to your machine tools. But like going, you print your male and females at three, three and a four, and half, five. And then you can start mixing, matching the two to see how it lock up changes.
00:32:59
johngrimsmo
And see where it's contacting and all that. That's what I'm trying to do now on real parts under the microscope without Prussian blue and to see what's happening.
00:33:01
John S
Yeah.
00:33:04
John S
Right. Right.
00:33:07
johngrimsmo
Okay, this is interesting.
00:33:10
johngrimsmo
Yeah, and doing it in situ in the handle when flipping it is the ideal because that's the real life application of the product. um
00:33:21
johngrimsmo
So we're kind of at this crossroad. Is it an angle? Do I need better inserts for soft turning it? Should we just hard turn it from the start? um There's pluses and minuses to every solution, you know?
00:33:32
johngrimsmo
Like imagine if we just got better inserts for the lathe and we just kept swissing them and they're fastest and it's best.
00:33:37
John S
Yeah.
00:33:38
johngrimsmo
And like that's that sounds easiest to me if that works. If there is an insert out there that is better for this soft steel,
00:33:46
John S
Yeah.
00:33:46
johngrimsmo
And then heat treating the individual parts is annoying, but not hard. And then they still need to be kind of descaled, not scaled, but you know tumbled and made good. So there's there's work in every system.
00:34:00
John S
we've We've been through this conversation before though, things move in heat treat. You've proven that and, and hard mill all the things I'm not saying production, you have to do it this way, but at least run some of this.
00:34:05
johngrimsmo
True.
00:34:08
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:34:10
johngrimsmo
yeah Yeah, I'm definitely leaning hard towards hard mill all the things now. After my past few months of of success in actual hard milling with actual hard milling tools is massively different.
00:34:19
John S
Yeah.
00:34:24
John S
Yeah.
00:34:29
John S
Yeah.
00:34:29
johngrimsmo
Speaking of hard milling tools.
00:34:29
John S
but Oh yeah.
00:34:32
johngrimsmo
Yeah, well, okay, finish your thought. It sounds like it's on on topic.
00:34:35
John S
No, I just was going to say I have spent the last two and a half year, or no, year and a half on appreciating tape tapering, taper contact ah with the puck chuck.
00:34:44
johngrimsmo
Sure, yeah, yeah. Making the puck chuck.
00:34:46
John S
Yes.
00:34:46
johngrimsmo
Yep. yep
00:34:47
John S
um
Advancements in Hard Milling
00:34:48
John S
Yes. Like huge amount of respect for the folks that make Capto and HSK and Big Plus stuff like it's, yeah.
00:34:53
johngrimsmo
Yep. It's not easy.
00:34:58
johngrimsmo
yeah Trying to hold consistency within tenths forever, ah with no deviation and no hiccups.
00:35:04
John S
Okay.
00:35:07
johngrimsmo
So it's it's funny that we keep talking about hard milling. Like almost every episode, it's like, oh, did you hear about hard milling? Because I'm still so blown away by it. Like, honestly, we've been hard milling for 15 years, but I haven't been doing it right until now.
00:35:23
John S
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:23
johngrimsmo
that's so That's what I feel like. like using the proper, they don't have to be Japanese, the Japanese end mills, the NS, the Moldino, the union.
00:35:30
John S
yeah
00:35:32
johngrimsmo
Um, I bought some of the YG1 X1 EH end mills, the their brand new line.
00:35:35
John S
Mm-hmm. OK. Awesome.
00:35:37
johngrimsmo
I'm really impressed with how they look. I haven't tried them yet, but under the microscope geometrically, they look as good as the Moldino ones. Um, so we'll see how time will tell who knows if the carbide is as good. i don't but, um,
00:35:52
johngrimsmo
But on the mori, when we make our Norseman blades, because you know, when you look at a Norseman blade bevel, it's got the lines in it because we hard mill those bevels and we've been doing that forever.
00:35:58
John S
Yep.
00:36:01
johngrimsmo
And we've just been using, you know, three-eighths ball mill from Lakeshore forever.
00:36:06
John S
My recollection was that like you're like, that i thing it looks like it's been through a war. It just keeps on trucking.
00:36:11
johngrimsmo
Oh, yep, absolutely. Yep. um It's got a lot of problems, though, doing it that way. And tool life is variable. And then when we use a harder steel like MagnaCut, which gets a few points harder and has bigger carbide grains, and it's just ah a brutal steel to machine, um it eats those tools for breakfast. Like, you know, you get two blades per endmill. And I'm like, what the heck? This is dumb.
00:36:32
John S
Yeah, right.
00:36:33
johngrimsmo
um So I bought some Union 10 millimeter endmills for hard milling. um They were expensive, like close to $200 per tool.
00:36:42
John S
Perfect.
00:36:43
johngrimsmo
um And I just tried them last night and I had some chatter and vibration, which was annoying me, like great finish, amazing, sounds good.
00:36:51
John S
Interesting.
00:36:52
johngrimsmo
And then it starts to chatter in a certain section of the blade. And so i'm trying to figure out what's going on. And don't know if you've come across the Instagram channel, Utah tag Tech Fab or something like that.
00:37:06
johngrimsmo
They're a university.
00:37:06
John S
went on Okay. look.
00:37:07
johngrimsmo
um
00:37:08
John S
take a look
00:37:08
johngrimsmo
So like machining program, kind of like Laney Machine Tech, but in Utah.
00:37:10
John S
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
00:37:12
johngrimsmo
And they came up in my feed one day and they did ah deep dive on the tap tests where you tap tap the end mill in the spindle and and measure the harmonic vibration.
00:37:20
John S
Oh, yeah. Interesting. Oh, okay.
00:37:24
johngrimsmo
And he had this one video go up that went pretty viral, you know hundreds of thousands of views.
00:37:30
johngrimsmo
where he basically uses a audio recording device on his phone, Spectroid, I think was the app, and it tells you the hertz of the tap when you ding the tool with another thing.
00:37:39
John S
Mm-hmm.
00:37:41
johngrimsmo
It shows the spike of what hertz frequency it's tapping at. And there's all this theory and math behind what RPM to run the tool at because that tool wants to vibrate at that frequency and don't either do run it at that frequency or don't avoid it, kind of thing like that.
00:37:54
John S
Really?
00:37:58
johngrimsmo
so I read all his things again for the fourth time in all the 88 comments, helpful. And then I tested it and I did my Hertz thing and I got about 1000 something Hertz.
00:38:11
johngrimsmo
And then I went to ChatGPT and I just started brain dumping, you know, my experience, my, what I was trying to do. And chat really helped me step-by-step guide, try new RPA.
00:38:23
John S
really
00:38:24
johngrimsmo
And it was actually fantastic. And this guy from the university mentioned a certain book, um machine Machining Dynamics by Tony Schmoltz or something.
00:38:32
John S
Schmitz.
00:38:33
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:38:33
John S
Tony Schmitz. That's who I was going to bring up.
00:38:35
johngrimsmo
Yeah, um because that's where all this started from.
00:38:36
John S
Okay.
00:38:39
John S
Yeah.
00:38:39
johngrimsmo
And so I mentioned that in chat to PD and I'm like, according to the book, blah, blah. And they're like, it read it. I don't know. It knows it. um And it goes, yes, actually, because of that theory.
00:38:46
John S
Yeah.
00:38:50
johngrimsmo
OK, we're going to try this. And they were saying even 50 RPM increments can make a noticeable difference to get you into or out of the I forget all the fancy words, but, you know, the range of vibration.
00:39:00
John S
Yeah, the... There were like two CJ posted a thing years ago on this in what's up where there's two zones and they tend to be lower than you think. And then higher than you think where you get better material removal life tool.
00:39:12
John S
Like everything's happier when you actually go significantly higher. This is not guesswork. This is very scientifically research.
00:39:16
johngrimsmo
Yeah, very scientific. And I'm guessing, but um so I was trying 50 RPM increments and I, on a first blade where you rough out the thing and then you finish, um I was still getting some chatter no matter what RPM I tried.
00:39:34
johngrimsmo
only in a localized zone. And then I went to recut that same blade and all that chatter went away. And it made me realize my roughing tool is still these beat up you know garbage ones.
00:39:45
johngrimsmo
So it is leaving a variable amount of stock, probably a lot more than I think it is.
00:39:50
John S
Interesting.
00:39:50
johngrimsmo
for my finish pass. And so I pop that into chat and like, I have my own thoughts and I give my own thoughts and, and it goes, yeah, you probably have, you know, too much stock to leave. so maybe add a semi, semi finishing pass.
00:40:01
John S
Let me write, yeah, yeah.
00:40:02
johngrimsmo
um I suggested it actually. And they're like, yeah, that's a great idea. And it's obviously i hold everything it tells me with a grain of salt, but it is like having a conversation with somebody who kind of knows what they're talking about.
00:40:15
johngrimsmo
And it it gets information out of me that I might not have thought in my own head because I'm now almost having a conversation with myself, um but with some other perspective and some details and internet research knowledge.
00:40:15
John S
Yep.
00:40:19
John S
Yep.
00:40:26
johngrimsmo
And it was was actually really, really enjoyable. um And then haven't finished it yet, but I'm going to add, I'm going to use a proper hard milling roughing tool and then I'm going add a semi-finished pass and then proper finish pass.
00:40:40
johngrimsmo
And this should just solve all problems for good. And after making five or six blades, I looked at the tool under the microscope, the proper hard milling union end mills, zero noticeable wear.
00:40:51
John S
Yeah, yeah, this looks brand new.
00:40:53
johngrimsmo
hold The regular end mills would have been chipped and coating flaking off and everything by now. Like, okay, I'm on the right track. This is cool. This is cool.
00:41:02
John S
It's awesome.
00:41:03
johngrimsmo
And even this is where maybe a hydraulic holder would dampen, would be ah good for this situation. um
00:41:10
John S
you You misspelled regofix.
00:41:10
johngrimsmo
But sure. Um, I don't and currently inventory any of those for a 10 millimeter tool for a cat 40, you know, like what do I have in the shop that I can make work?
00:41:18
John S
Right. Yeah, yeah.
00:41:22
John S
Yeah, and I know. hear yeah
00:41:23
johngrimsmo
Um, sure.
00:41:23
John S
I'm blown away what the RevoFix has done and stuff like this.
00:41:26
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:41:26
John S
It would like no just pure results, period, full stop.
00:41:32
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:41:32
John S
I kind of wish I had known about it earlier.
00:41:34
johngrimsmo
Totally.
00:41:35
John S
Whatever.
00:41:36
johngrimsmo
Yep. It just does. It just does the thing.
00:41:39
John S
Just really good.
00:41:39
johngrimsmo
They're just very expensive. Yep.
00:41:40
John S
yeah
00:41:43
John S
Um, ah that's cool.
00:41:43
johngrimsmo
So yeah.
00:41:45
John S
show i keep me keep wanting to ask during that. There's nothing that you think is the fixture or the work holding or like a knife is so thin when it gets in the middle. Is that the part?
00:41:53
johngrimsmo
Totally. Totally possible. um And there's not too much I can improve in that process. at The way the heart's held, what the part is.
00:42:00
John S
Yeah.
00:42:03
johngrimsmo
Like imagine a knife blade edge up, pointing at the sky. And once you've machined side one and you move it over to move side two, side one is gone.
00:42:11
John S
Yeah.
00:42:11
johngrimsmo
So you're flexing.
00:42:14
John S
Yeah.
00:42:14
johngrimsmo
However, it's chattering down at the spine at the thicker section of the blade, not at the flexy part.
00:42:18
John S
Interesting.
00:42:19
johngrimsmo
And so I pop that into chat GPT and I'm like, what's happening here? and they're like, actually, yeah, it seems counterintuitive, but where it's more meat could actually be deflecting the tool more because the part is stiffer.
00:42:30
johngrimsmo
So you're having tool deflection, not necessarily part deflection. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And i was like, oh, kind of makes sense maybe.
00:42:37
John S
Yeah, or there's more mass to, in the part for to actually create a resonance versus the flimsy part that just peters out, right?
00:42:39
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:42:44
John S
Like the decay of, you think about like a tuning fork has some mass to it when it
00:42:44
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
00:42:48
johngrimsmo
Exactly.
Fixture Stability and ID Expansion Clamps
00:42:49
John S
rings.
00:42:49
johngrimsmo
and And you have an end mill with four flutes that's going bankng bang, bang, bang, bang at a very consistent RPM. And there's a lot going on here, right? And I'm actively trying not to go too deep down the rabbit hole because I just need a solution.
00:42:57
John S
Yeah.
00:43:01
johngrimsmo
So trying to understand it just enough to like try the next thing.
00:43:06
John S
yeah
00:43:06
johngrimsmo
And then I think I'm there. I think I'm there.
00:43:09
John S
it's funny the Tony Spence, the work, I've not followed it closely, but there was a company that they were affiliated with, like not blue note, but something like that, that was, or maybe I'm conflating it with MSC because MSC sponsored them.
00:43:20
John S
And it was like a research lab and they were, they had this product that they put in your spindle and tap test it and find these bands and ri resonance.
00:43:23
johngrimsmo
he
00:43:26
John S
But, um, If there's one thing I've learned as a machinist over the years that kind of wouldn't believe it, but I believe it is the hand knock test. um I can walk up to a part or a fixture, assuming it's large enough for me to actually knock on it, like I'd knock on a door.
00:43:41
johngrimsmo
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:43:42
John S
And i know I know almost everything I need to know about how that machine is gonna go in that fixture based on what I hear and feel out of that knock test.
00:43:47
johngrimsmo
Interesting. I can see that. I've done things like that. yeah You can tell if the fixture is loose or if it's slapping, like bending and then and then touching.
00:43:55
John S
Yeah. Yep.
00:43:58
johngrimsmo
I can see that, yeah. That's one of those you know experience things. like You teach your apprentice, but the apprentice almost never figures out by himself. like
00:44:06
John S
Yeah, yeah. Well, we have this part that's a shimtworx valve or timing chain cover. We have a fixture with traditional pit bulls clamping against talons, but it's long and thin and it's a pain in the butt. And we machine parts away that we end up having to instead of machining it all the way we slot it and then there's remnant chunks that fall off onto the table which is okay but not great and so we're actually going to go back to a pearson i think we're gonna try using a pearson uh vacuum pump and build a little vacuum fixture because if that works it's like oh this would be so much better and it's actually not cumbersome to the way we're using it to have it done that way the um
00:44:42
johngrimsmo
Yeah. if If the incoming part is flat enough to suction down, right? Big sheet of aluminum.
00:44:48
John S
Uh, the, so we, yeah, the op one will be, I'm sure. And the opportunity definitely will be because that's what we're selling is the finest of the coverage. So I'm not worried.
00:44:57
johngrimsmo
Got it.
00:44:57
John S
Not, we were aware of that and control that.
00:44:57
johngrimsmo
Sure, sure.
00:45:00
John S
And I'm okay with that.
00:45:01
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Well, as I'm making more fixtures and I call them center pallets, we are actively seeing warp from clamping and you deck the top and then you unclamp it and tacos all over the place.
00:45:11
John S
Yeah.
00:45:14
johngrimsmo
And like, heck? Why is this not flat? And thankfully we can lap things to get them flat.
00:45:16
John S
Yeah.
00:45:18
johngrimsmo
But um
00:45:19
John S
Yeah.
00:45:21
johngrimsmo
trying to make flat parts is frustrating. Yeah.
00:45:25
John S
That's our next Saunders product that we're in, I wouldn't say the middle of R&D, we're past the midway point, I think, which is a series of ID expanding clamps for work holding. We've moved so much of our product production to that because you clamping across parts, there's one, the it's an inverse, it's a direct correlation.
00:45:37
johngrimsmo
Cool.
00:45:42
John S
The harder you clamp it, the more stress you're putting across it.
00:45:45
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:45:45
John S
And that almost is never desirable. And we found any part that has a through hole has the potential to be ID expand clamp, and it's great.
00:45:47
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:45:54
johngrimsmo
Which I assume imparts almost no twisting, bending, stress.
00:45:54
John S
It really is.
00:45:59
John S
Correct. Yeah.
00:46:00
johngrimsmo
Because it's like in situ. Like if you put the part on your ID expandings, even if it's not sitting perfectly flush to the fixture, at least the clamps are going to keep it in place.
00:46:09
John S
Bingo. Yep.
00:46:10
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:46:10
John S
Yep. It's really nice.
00:46:13
johngrimsmo
And then you're going to have people designing their parts and their hole spacing around SMW fixture holes facing. I'm assuming.
00:46:22
John S
Well, this would be, you'd most likely, they'll be fixture plate compatible, but you'll most likely use these on your own fixtures. But um the goal will be to have a series of nominal sizes and then probably some that can be, that will be oversized for the user to turn down to their, or mill down to their diameter.
00:46:28
johngrimsmo
Okay.
00:46:35
johngrimsmo
Yeah, sure.
00:46:38
John S
I don't think we want to offer them in like 10,000 range. There's not a huge clamping range, so you'd have to have lots of skews to cover every diameter, but yeah.
00:46:43
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah. Now you're on the right track there. Yeah, offer, you know, quarter, half, three quarter, one, something like that, and then machinable ones.
00:46:50
John S
Bingo. Yeah.
00:46:53
johngrimsmo
And then clearly lists the clamping range and the machinable range and all that stuff.
00:46:53
John S
Yeah.
00:46:58
johngrimsmo
There are other companies do this too.
00:47:01
John S
Yeah. No, I mean, not secret mighty bite has something, but ours is better.
00:47:02
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:47:05
John S
And I think in many respects,
00:47:05
johngrimsmo
Love it. Again, taper fit.
00:47:09
John S
yeah yeah, this one though, I want the lockup. I love it. I love to lock up what it's all about.
00:47:12
johngrimsmo
yeah Yeah, exactly.
00:47:16
John S
um Okay. ah Yeah. I got run.
00:47:21
johngrimsmo
Awesome.
00:47:21
John S
I got that call. um
00:47:22
johngrimsmo
Sounds good, man.
00:47:23
John S
I'll see you next week.
00:47:25
johngrimsmo
Next week. All right.
00:47:25
John S
Sound good? All right, take care.
00:47:26
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Have good week. Bye.