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Let's Bring the Darkness w/ Dani Abernathy
79 Plays4 months ago
In this episode of The Ugly Podcast, I speak with Dani Abernathy (she/they), an Enneagram teacher and Author Accelerator book coach, and we reflect on how our creativity got lost in the shuffle of adulthood, stifled by self-judgment and the pressures of fitting into religious norms. We discuss how stepping away from religion and being honest about who we really are—especially when it comes to gender and sexuality—opened up space to create without fear or the need to prove anything. We talk about how isolating it can be to hide parts of yourself and how freeing it feels to just be real, even if that means embracing the darker or more complicated parts. Exploring and expressing our true identities has made life—and creativity—feel a lot more authentic and fun.
This episode also showcases the first ever live ugly art exercise! Don't know how we got this far without one, but so glad we're here!
Learn more about Dani at daniabernathy.com and take their Untapped Superpower Quiz to discover your writing superpower and receive tools to help you on your writing journey. Follow them on Instagram: @daniabernathyauthor
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Transcript
Intro and Business Expansion Dilemma
Community Creativity and Ugly Art Workshops
00:00:18
Speaker
And art sure can too What matters is to do it Let those feelings flow through you
Guest Introduction: Dani Abernathy and Creative Spaces
00:00:37
Speaker
Hello! Welcome back to the Ugly Podcast. It's me, Lauren. They, them, and I'm here with a great guest for you. um They're an Enneagram teacher and author-accelerator book coach who helps people write the stories they need to tell so their readers can feel seen and can see others. She believes that stories can change the world one reader at a time and are one of the most powerful tools for having less war and more love. She's the creator of the Rooted Writers Mentorship, a year-long writing mentorship that helps people write brave stories. She's an Enneagram for
00:01:13
Speaker
Capricorn and Manifesting Generator who loves rainy days, good coffee, and books that make you ugly cry. Welcome.
Anxiety, Art, and Inclusivity
00:01:20
Speaker
Thanks. I'm very excited to be here. ah Could you please just say your name and your pronouns for everybody? Sure. ah My name is Dani Abernathy. My pronouns are she, her, and were they? I don't know. I don't know.
00:01:35
Speaker
This is the same Welcome. Every time I don't have to get my brodums, I'm like... I remember those days. i Yeah, I remember. Yeah. um Well, we can definitely go with She-Her if you'd like to work with them or mix it up. I'd pick one, I don't care. Right, okay. Amazing. um And I've started doing this for all my episodes. Could you give a brief ah visual description of yourself, please?
00:02:05
Speaker
Yes, so I am a white woman. I have short brownish hair. I have bright blue eyes. I am wearing a black tank top and big headphones. And i my wall is bright blue behind me. Amazing.
00:02:21
Speaker
um And as
The Art of Intentionally Bad Art
00:02:23
Speaker
you all now know, since I started doing this last episode, I am also a white person, non-binary, short cropped, ah curly hair with curly bangs, big round glasses. And today I'm wearing a free Palestine shirt. And ah yeah, I'm also in my recording in my bedroom with my weird art behind me and it's great.
00:02:42
Speaker
Um, cool. I'm so, I'm so glad we are finally talking and, uh, getting to chat about all of the, all of the creative things. I did have to go and like, I was like, what was my Enneagram again? I can't remember. I took it. I took it like.
00:02:58
Speaker
four years ago or something, and I'm like a really close, ah really close between a six and a four. ah hu um I don't actually know what any of that means. I didn't really look into it that much. But I'm also a Capricorn, so I really would be there. Except I, I mean, I saw a reel, so, you know.
00:03:20
Speaker
Let's take this with a grain of salt. It's absolutely a hundred percent true. Absolutely. It's scientifically factual because it was only on Instagram. but That is right. Um, that said that, you know, the, the stars are different and so I might be like a Sagittarius. Is that the one that comes before? I can't even, I don't know them. It's close. I don't really remember so who knows. Fascinating. My whole identity might change based on.
00:03:50
Speaker
based on my zodiac precisely um Well, let's just kind of dive in and talk about creativity. what has What's your relationship and your creativity through your life? Such an interesting question.
00:04:06
Speaker
um so so I was a
Capitalism's Impact on Creativity
00:04:10
Speaker
creative kid. I think we all are, right? and was creative. Somehow in my early adulthood, I decided like that I wasn't very creative or like I limited my creativity. And I was like, oh, you are not a creative writer. You are a technical writer.
00:04:33
Speaker
And my degree was in like video
Collaboration and Podcast Reflection
00:04:35
Speaker
production and stuff. and And I was doing this job that I hated. I was actually working for Omega Church and editing their TV show because I used to be an evangelical Christian and I'm not anymore. And it was soul crushing for so many reasons. And I was like, I just i don't know. I i sort of detached from my creativity in a lot of ways. And then several years later, when I was a missionary, um ah
00:05:01
Speaker
We, ah my partner and I, we had a couple miscarriages and I was super depressed and um and I rediscovered poetry and it sort of, I think, saved me
Reconnecting with Creativity and Fun
00:05:12
Speaker
in a lot of ways. And then, so since then, I i reconnected with my creativity in a lot of ways. And now I feel a lot more freedom and a lot less judgmental, I think, of my creativity than I was before. I mean, I'm still judgmental of it, but but it, I think it's actually,
00:05:38
Speaker
This is probably not a true statement, but I feel like it's maybe serving the purpose it's meant to serve in my life now, which is more just like fun and exploration and like, I like this, so I'm going to do it. yeah Not because I feel like I have to perform or improve something or because someone else is telling me to do it.
00:05:58
Speaker
Yeah, I relate to that a lot. I also, I love i love ah how depression brings out the poet in all of us. I really appreciate that.
00:06:15
Speaker
It's like, can you write good poetry if you're not depressed? I don't know. Should I get off of my medication?
00:06:25
Speaker
If I get better, I won't be a good poet. Exactly. um yeah It really yeah really does. That's how like I also ah you also grip Christian and didn't think I was creative for a variety of reasons, but mostly because of you know that one teacher who tells you you suck or whatever. um and like when I started getting really depressed like poetry was my like my creative outlet but then of course like because of my mindset at the time it's just like oh these are just like dumb poems and I never gonna show them to anybody and then I'm gonna burn them my senior year of high school and you know is that what you did it is yeah
00:07:08
Speaker
Sadly, i i do i that's one thing I regret is burning all my journals ah from high school. But then again, they were real, real sad. Mostly just like begging God to make me not depressed anymore. like Right?
Struggles with Creativity and Depression
00:07:23
Speaker
I feel like i mean i don't I didn't burn mine. I still have them, but I do not want to reread them because they were all just these desperate prayers to God. to like you know, remove this sin from me. And it was the same thing over and over again. yeah And of course it never got any better. And it it's just, why did you burn yours?
00:07:45
Speaker
i And i when did you burn them? I burned them right before I went to college. It was like the summer after my senior year. And I was like, I was leaving Spokane. I was just like ready to leave my hometown behind me and start fresh. And I was just like, I'm like, I'm just getting, I'm burning all of these. um I don't want any memory of this place. And yeah. And you were still a Christian at that point? I was, yeah. Yeah. Which is interesting because like,
00:08:22
Speaker
Yeah, I was still a Christian and still very much connected
Fears and Challenges of In-Person Events
00:08:27
Speaker
to that identity. But like ah something about like my hometown just like felt like that was the problem and not the religion. Yes. Or like the ideologies. I don't know. um But yeah. Yeah, I went to high school in rural Texas, which is Quite a place. um And i I have very similar feelings. like I was very religious when I left. I mean, I was religious up until I was 30-ish. I'm 40 now. um But yeah, just the feeling of, like oh, this place is bad versus, like oh, it's the religion. right it's That's really made me the problem. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny how we
00:09:17
Speaker
Yeah, because as I went back to Spokane recently ah to live there after my divorce ah for a few months. And it was really fun to reconnect to the place while being like out and like just being my true authentic self. And then like I'd find these pockets of queerness in Spokane and it was just so delightful. And I was just like, oh, no, this place is great. It's the ideologies that I hated and that were stifling me and suffocating me. Yeah.
00:09:47
Speaker
Yeah. I think it'd probably be harder to find the queer pockets in the rural Texas town, right? But I'm sure they exist. They're just very well-hidden. Yeah, yeah ah probably for their own safety. and yeah oh The world is bad. oh It makes me sad. at but this was one of the or Actually, just was it yesterday? Yeah, yesterday I was just crying.
00:10:16
Speaker
ah girlfriend's place just crying because I was sad about the world. and it just ah yeah um So now it's today and it still feels like we're just Driving really fast toward the end. Yeah, but I'm also but there's also just like finding these I was just ah I just did a um intuitive creativity session with my writing community and
Pandemic, Personality, and Neurodiversity
00:10:48
Speaker
um We were talking about just like how when we're stuck in like looking at social media and the news and like it feels cold out there and just like this kind of human connection and talking with an actual person and not looking at someone's curated content or um you know, it's it these are like the moments that we need to keep going. um So thank you for having this conversation. Yeah, it was very nice. It also makes me think I should probably leave my house more often.
00:11:18
Speaker
Yes. See people in real life. Yeah. Well, okay. so this is One of the things that I am trying to do is get the courage to do more in-person events and workshops. I've done a lot of online workshops ah throughout my three-year ah entrepreneurship journey. And I really enjoyed doing those. and But for some reason doing in person workshops is so scary to me. that I don't know like why I can't get over this hump of fear. What is it about it that's scary? ah One, okay, I think real life community is terrifying to me. And I don't know if it's because of
00:12:05
Speaker
I'm afraid of conflict, one. And two, I'm afraid of messing things up of failure. um and Thank you, Christianity. Thank you, Christianity. like Yeah. I think those are some of the big ones. Because my my reason is much more superficial, which is, what am I going to wear?
00:12:36
Speaker
Oh my God, that's so good. What do I wear? Everyone's going to be looking at me. It's like my 12-year-old. Well, I've always felt this way, but it's just like, um i Mom, I don't have close. I'm sure the day of I would be having those thoughts. and so Thank you for adding another fear to the list. You're so welcome.
00:13:03
Speaker
ah Yeah. Yeah, in person is definitely very important. Yeah, in person also adds kind of a layer, which is one of the things we were going to talk about today is like having to work with our bodies m and our brains, which our brains is part of our bodies, which we always need to remember.
00:13:24
Speaker
um and yeah I think, I don't know, and especially just like following 2020 and like the change of our world with the pandemic and everything, um in person just like seems like such an extra stressor on my body. yeah like I've been hanging out with a lot more people recently. I've started building up my community here more and ah I'm so tired all the time now. h yeah Are you an introvert? Oh yeah. A hundred percent. And did you find that COVID just made you so much more aware of how introverted you are? Yes. My sister-in-law talk about this all the time. I'm like, it made me much more aware of my neurospiciness and how much time I need to recover and like, yeah, my sensory issues. It just, and so then it makes you feel like you can't do more things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For me.
00:14:24
Speaker
So during COVID is the time when I realized, oh, I have depression. And like I should probably be on medication, and which was a huge, I mean, talking about you know your body and your your brain, which is part of your body, that realization just kind of changed the world. I knew I was, I think it's the Christianity. I thought I was just sinful. I wasn't doing, I wasn't trying hard enough. you know Yeah. yeah And, but another thing it did was like, I am pretty happy to be alone, like a lot of the time, but then just last week I was super sad and lonely and I realized, Oh, I haven't like, I work at home. Everything's at home. I don't leave my house very often. And we don't have a lot of friends in person, which is really hard. And I realized I hadn't like seen people socially in like a month. And I was like, this is,
00:15:22
Speaker
Apparently I need the people. So I need to figure out, cause we're evidently social beings, right? And I need to them in person, not just on zoom, but that's not, it's like a lot of effort to do now. Yeah. It is. It's a lot of effort. Yeah. And then I have the, what am I going to wear?
00:15:48
Speaker
trouble People are going to be able to see my whole body. What am I going to put on all parts of my body? Yeah, I'm curious. Okay, so you mentioned you're you're kind of on a gender journey a little bit. have has have have words Has clothing played into that at all? like Have you started experimenting with clothing and like gender expression in that way?
00:16:14
Speaker
Yes, and but maybe not in the way you would think. So before I think I was come i was rebelling against this perceived um enforced perception of femininity and womanhood and modesty and all these things. And so so the way that I pushed against that was to be I think more masculine presenting than I am now in my clothing, like quite gray,
00:16:47
Speaker
maybe somber and like simple. And like, I didn't want to draw too much attention to myself. I didn't want to be seen. the And now I actually worked with a stylist, a style coach last year. And what I'm realizing is, oh, I like bright colors and I like, I don't like bows and ruffles, but I do like,
00:17:11
Speaker
to be sexy. And like, I like, I'm embracing this maybe more like dangerous side of myself.
Identity, Attraction, and Personal Ambiguity
00:17:20
Speaker
And then I'm also like, so do you watch Top Chef at all? Hopefully not. I do not. No, I know. Okay. So there's a new, there's a new host on Top Chef, Kristin Kish. And I just think she is like the most attractive woman I've ever seen. And I'm also like,
00:17:40
Speaker
Do I also want to look like her because, you know, she wears little like vests and I just, so anyway, I'm figuring it out and I don't know. And I'm also trying to figure out what I'm attracted to versus what I want to be, yeah which is an interesting, an interesting.
00:18:00
Speaker
i I've been noticing that more and more because like i because i well I thought I was ace for a very long time. and um and Then I met somebody and it was like, surprise, you're not ace. I was like, This person is like not who I ah like ever imagined myself being with.
00:18:23
Speaker
and like And so now I'm like, okay, wait, so all these like, whenever I do see people that I am like, quote unquote, attracted to, is it do I just want to be them? And I'm like, I'm noticing like, a lot of like, um like,
00:18:41
Speaker
ah
00:18:44
Speaker
transmasc and um like butch lesbians. I'm like very into it. I'm like, wait, do I just want to be you? I'm really confused. but i might I might just want to be them. Yeah, it is confusing. And I also notice like I'm bi. And so like with men that I'm attracted to, I'm also like part of the reason I'm attracted to them is because I admire things about them, which I guess is a normal part of attraction. But so it's just it's an interesting thing. Yeah.
00:19:14
Speaker
Yeah. Being a person is confusing. Being a I 100% agree, um but it's also very fun and great sometimes. It is fun. I feel like it's so much more fun now than it was when I was younger. Yeah. Because I was so scared of everything and myself. Yeah. Yeah.
00:19:40
Speaker
Exactly. Being afraid of yourself is the worst feeling. So you can't get away from yourself. You're just stuck with you. Yeah. And when you feel like you're just wrong in all the ways, yeahs not it's not great.
00:20:01
Speaker
No, it's it's really rough. was there like Was there anything that kind of helped you break out of that for yourself?
00:20:10
Speaker
Well, I mean, I just feel like we're talking about my whole deconstruction process. um That's fine. I talk about that a lot on this podcast just because that's also my experience. like I know it doesn't necessarily have to do with creativity, which is like what this podcast is about. um But it's also like my experience. And I also feel like i feel like leaving religion helps me eventually get to the path of like connecting with my creativity. So I don't know. and all Yeah.
00:20:37
Speaker
I absolutely, that's been my experience because before, like, as I kind of said, like my feeling, my creativity was um very closely monitored within myself yeah to make sure that it was appropriate. Yeah. And like pleasing to God or. Yeah. And now it's so different and um you know, I'm, I mean, I guess I've always been slightly attracted to like dark things, but now I'm like,
00:21:09
Speaker
I understand why. And if I'm like, hell yes, like let's bring the darkness. um But yeah, i my, what was your question? ah How did you kind of break out of that fearfulness? Oh, of myself. Of yourself, yeah.
Leaving Religion and Embracing Authenticity
00:21:28
Speaker
So long story short, um, we, we lived in Germany for five years as missionaries. We worked at a boarding school for missionary kids. So we were basically caring for missionary kids. My oldest child was born there. We moved back to the States in 2015, which is when Trump was elected and we were like, what the fuck is happening? I assume I can swear on this podcast. Great.
00:21:56
Speaker
Um, and, and this happens to a lot of people, but when you kind of go overseas as a Christian and then you come back, you're like, it's very disillusioning to come back to the American church. And so anyway, there was just a lot happening and it took a long time and it was.
00:22:16
Speaker
the Christmas of 2021, I had just gotten on my Lexapro for my depression. It was almost my birthday and we both my partner and I left Christianity and we, it had been several years, but we finally decided to tell our in-laws who are very religious and like ministers and stuff. And that telling them I say ah I came out to them about my Christianity. I haven't actually come out about being bi to them. So if you're listening,
00:22:53
Speaker
legend some new information for you. um it But telling them, ah it felt like I finally stopped hiding. hiding who I was and hiding what I actually believed. And since then it's just been this journey of like, I don't want to hide anymore. And I don't want to be afraid of myself anymore. And I, I'm just not going to. And so it's it, yeah. So there's this layer of accepting yourself, accepting what's true in yourself, but then also being willing to let it be seen and it
00:23:29
Speaker
You know, that doesn't mean you have to be let it, to let everyone see all the things, but for me, the more I've been able to be honest outwardly, the less afraid I've been. Yeah. I think that's so true. I, I think my, my journey of not being afraid of myself, all like it really followed my,
00:24:00
Speaker
It followed my coming out journey as well. And like, when I came out to my family as non binary, it really did like just made me feel more settled in myself because there's not like, Oh no, like I can't show this certain part on social media because like this family member follows me and like, I can't say this. And you're just like constantly monitoring yourself. And when you can finally break out of that, um, it just, it leaves so much room for like just expansion. You can be like, okay, well what else do I want? yeah How else do I want to be? And it gives you a lot more freedom of expression.
00:24:37
Speaker
Yeah, and it's like once you start to accept the things about yourself that you are so scared of, then there's just a curiosity yeah about both yourself and the world.
00:24:50
Speaker
And I think so much of at least the experience within sort of evangelical Christianity is about fear of yourself and everybody else and all the things. So it's so nice to live in a world where you're not, I mean, I feel like there's lots of terrible things happening, but I'm not afraid of everything like I once was, which is it's interesting. How do you feel like that affects your creativity?
00:25:18
Speaker
Well, that ah it's funny you say that because I was like, all of this is it's like it's also a mirror of my creativity journey because I started making ugly art intentionally because I couldn't make anything else.
Subverting Perfectionism Through Ugly Art
00:25:33
Speaker
i couldn't I couldn't make myself do the things I needed to do to start my business. I like i was totally frozen. And like so I started making ugly art on purpose just to practice like subverting my perfectionism and just being like, this is OK. And like the more I did that, the more it opened me up to, OK, well, what else can ah can this apply to? And ah like it ended up applying directly to me and how I show up in the world.
00:26:02
Speaker
like the more ugly art I made, the more I was like, what other things are, what other things are within me that I am keeping within because I'm just too scared to put them on paper and see what they look like um or like just play with them or experiment with them. And so yeah, like the more art that I made that was uncomfortable or weird or just nonsensical, the more it opened me up to like, what is actually interesting? And like, it opened up that curiosity. Like, i it activated the curiosity in me. And like, once your curiosity is activated, I feel like your life gets better. Yeah. And it's also this question of like, okay, well, why is this ugly? Like, who says this is ugly? and like Exactly. Yeah. Right.
00:26:58
Speaker
Yeah. And like so many things that I sat down and I was like, I'm going to make an ugly thing. And then it was just like a big colorful explosion. I'm like, this isn't ugly at all. This is amazing. I love this ugly thing I made. Yeah. right Yeah.
00:27:14
Speaker
Yeah, and it gave me such an appreciation for what we consider ugly and that, that includes like what I found ugly in myself or like what other people told me was ugly or like what religion taught me was ugly. Um, and just made me more curious to invite more of that in and express that more fully. huh And it's like, once you start to see beyond the binary and beyond the you know right and wrong or us versus then or the lines that are drawn.
Non-Binary Thinking and Creativity
00:27:47
Speaker
There's just so many things to discover. And it's like, well, who says it's this way and why? Why why do we think it's this way? What if it's ah another way? Yeah. Yeah. It gives me so much compassion for the world and compassion for myself. And yeah, there's no one way of being. And that is so freeing.
00:28:13
Speaker
Which is why it makes me so sad, like all the stuff that's happening. Yeah. Because it like it doesn't have to be this way. And the fact that it is, is so frustrating.
00:28:29
Speaker
like When people are enforcing their ideologies on others, or like you know spewing vitriol and all that, and then And then often you find out that like they're doing something. like that There was that one, um like the Moms for Liberty lady, who like she and her husband had a threesome with a woman. And there was like some like scandal, because there was some BDSM stuff that wasn't maybe not consensual. I don't know. but like
00:29:04
Speaker
that's like you could have just had a nice threesome with your family instead of like being like all like you all can't have sex only there's only one way to have sex it's just like what why do you have to like legislate other people and like just i don't know live happily you weirdo yeah stop being so afraid yeah
00:29:33
Speaker
And it's like, I'm just thinking about fear and the role it plays in all that stuff. And, you know, I think you said like it's fear of ourselves and it's also the sphere of like what we might lose in both like power and position and all those things, but also what we've built our world around. Like, what if that's not true? And then I have to reevaluate everything. Yeah.
00:30:03
Speaker
But then like all this good stuff comes afterwards. I know. And that's the thing that people don't. it they're ah You have to move through the bad to get to the good. And people don't want to move through the bad. They want to stay in certainty. Yes, that's been really. How have you experienced the need for certainty? ah Good question.
00:30:29
Speaker
i i mean yeah like ah Growing up in the church, like certainty was just this warm safety blanket around you at all times.
Embracing Uncertainty and Creativity
00:30:42
Speaker
um and so As soon as the world started showing me uncertainty, it like immediately started putting cracks in religion.
00:30:54
Speaker
um
00:30:56
Speaker
yeah I cling to certainty. a lot and i'm I'm much better about it now especially like ever since exploring my identity and like getting more comfortable in creativity and like letting things be fluid and weird and not necessarily have a point. um That's really helped kind of train my body to believing that there is still safety in uncertainty.
00:31:24
Speaker
um But yeah, it's really it's really hard for me to ah let go of the desire for certainty, um which I think is so much of the reason why I find myself as I start to want to expand my business more.
00:31:43
Speaker
like getting a little smaller and pulling back a little more because there's so much uncertainty in that direction. yeah ah Do I want more uncertainty in my life? I just went through this divorce and had to figure out like all this uncertainty around my identity and my like living situation and like how to take care of myself like financially. and It's just like, oh no, I have to keep going. I'm so tired.
00:32:11
Speaker
Yeah, I just want some certainty for a little bit, you know, and it's interesting. So I, there was one point a couple of years ago, my partner and I were both in therapy separately and both of us, I think we were trying to figure out how to parent. We have two kids. We were trying to figure out like, how do you,
00:32:34
Speaker
How do you do all this without these you know guidelines that someone else has given you? And they both of our therapists said to us, I think in the same week, like, what if there is no right or wrong? And we were like, what? I can't handle it.
00:32:54
Speaker
yeah and And so now, so I've been a book coach for about four years and my business is kind of stable now. And it's like not super hard. And I'm freaking out because it feels easy and good. And I'm like, something is wrong. I need to be struggling more. So it's so weird. Like how neither Neither place ah feels comfortable. yeah Yeah. I think that's just because being a human is uncomfortable and we like to make it uncomfortable when it's too comfortable. I'm going to make this harder for myself. Yeah. Oh, that's so funny.
Business Expansion into In-Person Events
00:33:43
Speaker
So you don't have to answer this question, but how are you thinking about expanding your business? Oh, yeah. um i I'll answer it. So I, one of my favorite things that I've done in my business is put on like ugly art ah workshops together and just made art with people. That's one of my favorite things I've done. And I haven't done it for a while because I had to take it off my plate during the divorce.
00:34:07
Speaker
um And I would like to start doing those again, but I have have an idea to make it more of like a studio thing, where people come in and you can make ugly art all over the walls and the ceiling of the furniture and like, oh my gosh kind of rage roomy, ah but with art.
00:34:32
Speaker
That sounds incredible. um So that's kind of where I'm interested in going with it and like pairing with therapists. And I don't know if I'm going to put all of this on the podcast. I might cut some of it because I feel like it feels like my secret and I have to give it a secret. I can't say everything. Which is just silly. like People can take this idea and run with it. I don't care. um But ah I might leave it in. Who knows? We'll see how I feel. ah But but yeah, and so it sounds like it would be something that's very fun and I can like pair with like art therapists to do like have them put on like workshops in the room and like um other like community events. I really want to make it like a community space.
00:35:15
Speaker
um and have it be a place for healing and creativity and curiosity and like questioning what kind of community we want to have and like what kind of resources would we like to share together and like what kind of beautiful future can we imagine, whether it's realistic or not. Because I feel like that's we don't have enough places where we can just imagine what the future is without people being like, well, this isn't realistic. and You can't do this. and it's like But creativity gives us the space to do that and there it there are no wrong answers here. You can just throw paint on a wall and throw words on the wall and make a mess and be curious and work together on these things. So that's kind of
00:35:59
Speaker
where I might be headed eventually. um But having an in-person studio sounds very daunting. Yeah. So I'm going to start with just like more workshops, which by the time this comes out, I may have already started doing them. That's kind of the goal is like through the summer, I would like to start doing more like in-person like ugly art in the park days or something like that. so Oh my gosh. I wish I could come.
00:36:25
Speaker
ah um Yeah, so ah yeah, <unk> but and that's the the dream for what's to come. We'll see. That sounds amazing. And while you were talking about it, I had this um anxiety in my body because so it it reminded me a a few years ago, I went to visit my friend in Kansas City and um she sets climbing paths at a climbing gym or whatever. I obviously don't climb. I don't know what I'm talking about. um Anyway, and so I went to her gym so she could show me around and and I
00:37:07
Speaker
I don't trust my body very much. I'm not like very athletic and things. And I like had this visceral panic about the thought of trying to climb this wall. And that is the same feeling I just had as you were talking about. That's so funny. About making ugly art.
00:37:29
Speaker
I don't know. was it ah about you making ugly art? Yes. Oh, interesting. so Have you never sat down to just like intentionally make something bad?
00:37:41
Speaker
um I don't think so. have i don't think so o I make bad things, but yeah but that's not the intention, no. Fascinating. Maybe I'll try that tonight. and I'm having feelings in my body. Yeah, it's scary, right?
00:37:59
Speaker
Oh, my gosh. Yeah, it's happening. That's fascinating. You're like, and I can maybe it's the camera, but you look a little like flushed. like I am. I'm like tearing up and I'm hot and I'm yeah. Fascinating. Is there like a specific like thought that's coming to you or is it just the visceral feeling?
00:38:23
Speaker
I think it's just the visceral feeling right now. Yeah. This is so interesting. Oh, I'm so excited for you to go make something ugly and then tell me how you feel. My chest is so tight. Wow. Clearly I need to explore this. Oh, okay. I'm like, I'm like, you're going to cry. This is okay.
00:38:52
Speaker
Oh my God. Okay. this is This is making me so happy. your Your pain is making me really happy. Can you like counsel me right now? I feel like I need some guidance. I mean, do you do you want to make something ugly right now? Do you have like a pen and paper handy? Yeah. I have something right here. I'm playing with them. um This is taking a direction I did not expect.
00:39:23
Speaker
Yeah, I wasn't expecting that, I'm i'm really excited. Okay, so yeah, so I want you to, yeah, get a pen and paper and just, you can say it aloud or you can just say it to yourself, be like, this little picture I make is gonna be really, really ugly.
00:39:42
Speaker
Okay, this little picture I make is going to be really, really ugly. Amazing. And um I want you to, let's see, think of the the first word that comes into your head. Three, two, one, go.
00:39:57
Speaker
Fire. Okay. Draw an ugly fire. Okay. that
00:40:08
Speaker
Okay. Draw an ugly fire. Just draw an ugly fire. Okay. Oh, this but marker doesn't work. i See, the the thing that's coming into my head is like, it would be ugly no matter what.
00:40:27
Speaker
So if I'm trying to make it ugly on purpose. But now you're making it ugly on purpose. Okay. This is my ugly fire. Perfect. It's so ugly. It's a scribble.
00:40:46
Speaker
It's just a scribble everyone. and It's basically just a scribble. It's just a scribble. I'm adding red.
00:40:54
Speaker
I'm gonna add all the colors. Perfect. Yeah, here's mine. Oh, i hand the log that looks like something my three year old would have drawn precisely. Okay. So a lot of is this, when, um, a lot of people, when I tell people, when I say that I encourage people to make ugly art, they're, they autom, their brain automatically goes to like, Oh, well like that person's ugly is probably not like my definition of ugly. Like my, my ugly thing would be way more ugly than that person's thing.
00:41:25
Speaker
And I'm like, no, literally, I go like deep into like three year old scribble mode and I'm just like. And man and and I'm just like having a great time making the dumbest things and also realizing how I don't know what most animals look like without a picture reference. It's really funny to try to draw animals when you don't. Do you to have a Fantasia? A what? A Fantasia where you can't see images in your mind.
00:41:52
Speaker
Oh, I don't actually know. I can see images in my mind, but like translating the image, like I can picture a whale, but when I try, if i like I'm like, wait, how many fins does it have?
00:42:09
Speaker
like Where are his eyeballs? like I don't know. What's the orientation of its fin? I want to see you draw an animal. OK. This is my current fire.
00:42:21
Speaker
It kind of looks like a really abstract turkey. Yeah, I was going to say, it kind of gives it's giving me peacock vibes. Yeah. Yeah. That was actually really fun to scribble like that. I still feel tightness in my chest. Yeah. Clearly, I need to come to your studio. And whether I would actually paint like do anything is a question because I might just have a breakdown. But eventually,
00:42:47
Speaker
but but So that's one thing I've been wondering is like, do I need to have like and a therapist on staff? I don't know. But like, I think, I don't know. I'm hopeful that maybe it can just, it can be a fun, because you know how there's like splatter paint rooms? Have you ever been to one of those? i have No. Okay.
00:43:10
Speaker
Okay, so this is my other problem. It's like, how do I get people like you into my studio? Because it's like, how do you draw people in to do this thing that's going to make them uncomfortable? Right. i like and Making art when you're like incredibly perfectionistic, and like um like it is hard to actually break through and make the ugly thing. like It is can be like pulling teeth. So it's like, how do I actually get what ah my vision is for this thing in front of the people who need it most? Because the people who need it most are past me, and past me never would have gone to this.
00:43:50
Speaker
Right. And I currently would be afraid to go to it because what do I wear? And hang back to and so yeah, maybe this is, maybe this was related to my ugly art problem. And, um, what if I don't fit in, you know, what if I don't? hu fit with these people. yeah um Especially because like they we have this like vision of like what an artist is, and like so many of us just don't think that we're artists. We don't think we fit into the creative type mode, or like ah mold rather. and like
00:44:26
Speaker
It's just like, no, you're a human being. You are a fleshy being that is like makes things based off of electrical signals in your brain like that. You are inherently creative.
00:44:41
Speaker
And regardless of whether you're making something like super detailed like the Sistine Chapel or like or you're just like drawing a ah picture of a whale that you don't really know what it looks like. It's just like that's your weird little electric signals sending messages to your fingers to just put something out into the world and we all have that capability.
00:45:08
Speaker
ah We just have to get over like these weird constraints that we put on ourselves and like like the education system has fucked all of us up. Right. it has to It has to look a certain way. It has to follow these rules. It has to be this kind of thing, and probably I have to be able to sell it. Yes, exactly. Yes. Capitalism, ah ah once again, is always the villain. Yes. Yeah. Okay. so Lauren.
00:45:33
Speaker
I, one way to, for you to get this message to people is to come to communities that already exist, like my writing program, because I think it would be amazing to have you come and like lead my writers through an exercise like this, because like I was just talking one, one of the clients on our call yesterday couple, this this week was talking about what to do when the muse shows up and doesn't follow the plan you have.
00:46:01
Speaker
and like how scary it was. yeah So I want you to come teach my clients to be ugly writers. Ooh, I would love that. And me, I guess. Oh, that that ah that makes me really excited because i I have like some ugly art writing prompts that are very fun that I enjoy doing with people. So I love this idea. OK, we're going to set this up.
00:46:31
Speaker
Oh, this makes me so happy. OK, so I've had, like, when I first started this podcast with my creative partner, Emerson, um I think one of the first episodes, we had one of these kind of like realizations of like, we're just talking and like throwing out ideas. And then we like, like stroke of genius, like, yeah like brain buzz of like how we wanted to collaborate on something together. And this is like what I wanted this podcast to be.
00:46:59
Speaker
And I, oh this makes me so happy. I'm so glad. Yay. Yay. I'm still hot. I'm sorry, go on a walk, take a cold shower. like I'm also in perimenopause, so that's probably part of it. Just constantly like, so sweaty.
00:47:21
Speaker
Well, I'm sorry that I ah activated your fight. You know. ah I guess it needed to happen, so. Thank you. Thank you for ushering in a new part of my self-discovery process. You're most welcome. Usually at the end of each episode, I ask people what's something ugly they made recently, but you made it live here on the podcast. I did.
00:47:45
Speaker
a This fire turkey.
00:47:51
Speaker
I think, so I've been actually like kind of drawing, doodling, coloring a lot lately, which is new. um And it's been very fun. And most of the time I'm trying to make something that looks nice. And a lot of times it doesn't, but I'm going to do some. I'm going to do some of this. Yeah. Yeah. Oops. I'll send you, I'll send you pictures. Oh, please do. I'm so excited. Yeah.
00:48:15
Speaker
oh Thank you so much for being here. um Before we go, is there what ah what do you want to share with people? How they can work with you? What have you got going on? How can people support you?
00:48:27
Speaker
Sure. Um, so I, you can find me at Danny Abernathy dot.com. Danny is D A N I. And I have a group writing program. If you are, if you've ever felt like you don't belong and you are writing something you really care about and you want to kind of contribute to a quiet book revolution. Check, check it out. I also have a quiz on my website to help you find your untapped writing superpower. So you can go take that if you want. Awesome. Love that.
00:48:55
Speaker
All right, thank you so much. And thank you everybody for listening. Remember to keep it ugly.
00:49:03
Speaker
The Ugly Podcast is created by me, Lauren Alexander of Scribe and Sunshine. It is produced and sort of edited, also by me, and written and directed by absolutely nobody. If you like the podcast, be sure to rate and leave a review on your preferred platform and share with the creative people in your life. If you're interested in learning more about what I do, head to scribeandsunshine.com to learn more about my Ugly Art 101 course, my Perfectionism Workshop, and my editing services. As always, keep it ugly. You can do it. You can go create.
00:49:34
Speaker
Just get to it. I promise you'll feel great.