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Creativity & Neurodivergence w/ Kyra Sutherland
41 Plays1 month ago
Today I'm joined by Kyra Sutherland (they/them), joy and confidence coach for autistic and ADHD folks, to discuss how neurodivergence impacts creativity and how practicing imperfection can help us expand how we view creativity and how we view ourselves.
As a kid, Kyra was a creative writer until puberty took hold and the comparison monster made creating too scary. As an adult, they have redefined creativity and how they express it through their business, gender expression, and relationships. You can learn more about them at joyfuldivergence.com and follow them on social media!
References:
"Multipotentialite"
You Are an Artist by Sarah Urist Green
Recommended
Transcript
Intro
Introduction and Welcome
00:00:38
Lore Alexander
Welcome back to the Ugly Podcast. It's me, your host, Laura Alexander. They, them. i ah You know how i you know I describe myself every week, so that I look the same. You're curly-haired, non-binary. Although this week, one, I have a new tattoo, which you can't see on the video. But I'm telling you anyway, it's exciting. It's a bat. um And then two, I'm wearing a new um eye reject My Mortal Gender t-shirt, which has the non-binary flag and a scary skeleton with lightning on it. It's delightful.
00:01:16
Lore Alexander
um So that's my vibe today. And
Meet the Guest: Kira, Joy and Confidence Coach
00:01:19
Lore Alexander
I've got to get an excellent guest for you today. um My guest is a joy and confidence coach for autistic and ADHD folks. They help high masking people like themselves, especially those late or self diagnosed, figure out how to work with their brain instead of fighting it and how to craft a life they love without all of the shame inherited from and existing in a neurotypical world.
00:01:44
Lore Alexander
So I'm so excited to speak with you. Welcome. Can you please introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and tell us the brief visual description.
00:01:53
Kyra
Of course, it's me. um My name is Kira. I also use they, them pronouns. I am a... Oh, I think I've done two visual descriptions in my life. um So this is fun. A white non-binary person with short wavy brown hair. I'm wearing over the ear headphones and it is a green cardigan, but it's coming off on camera as fairly black. And I've got my office chotchkes and nerdy shit in the background.
00:02:22
Kyra
That's me. I didn't clarify if we could swear on this podcast.
00:02:24
Lore Alexander
yay we oh yeah swearing is swearing is fine yep yeah thanks so much for being here um we love nerdy jotchkies uh we were just uh gabbin about dnd before before opening uh having a great time over here after a very hard week um it's a
00:02:27
Kyra
I assumed. Great. Cool. That's me.
00:02:34
Kyra
I'm excited.
00:02:44
Kyra
ivan It's a Monday word. It's Monday vibes.
00:02:49
Lore Alexander
It's Monday vibes after the horror show that was last week, which was election week. um we ah We were supposed to record last week and then we got on and both of us were just like, it it's not.
00:03:01
Kyra
I don't have the right vibes for this.
00:03:04
Lore Alexander
No.
00:03:04
Kyra
I could make it up, but it would be very low energy. And I don't know, anyone wants a sad low energy podcast.
00:03:08
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:03:10
Kyra
So let's go take a nap.
00:03:11
Lore Alexander
Yeah. Well, and like there's definitely value in that. There's value in people like showing up like in the middle of the grief and like amidst the shit.
00:03:18
Kyra
Totally.
00:03:19
Lore Alexander
But like it's also like sometimes we need ah something else. I don't know. just And also like and also like as the people doing the talking, like is that helpful for us or do we really just need to rest?
00:03:27
Kyra
Yeah.
00:03:34
Lore Alexander
Like, you know, it's there's a healthy balance. So I'm glad that we're speaking today.
00:03:40
Kyra
after resting and sleeping and playing D and&D and video games and <unk> etc.
00:03:41
Lore Alexander
after resting, yeah.
00:03:46
Kyra
Yeah!
00:03:46
Lore Alexander
Exactly. Uh, yes. Um, yeah, well, let's, uh, let's just
Neurodivergence and Creativity
00:03:53
Lore Alexander
dive into it. We're going to be talking about like creativity and neurodivergence and all that good stuff today. Um, but I would love to know just about you personally, um, about your relationship to creativity, kind of the, the story arc of your creativity. Um, if there, if there was a plot to your relationship with creativity throughout your life, what would that look like?
00:04:14
Kyra
Yeah, I was thinking about this question ahead of time. Oh boy. hu We're a year and a little bit extra on T testosterone and the voice cracks are all over the place. So welcome to that source of non-binary joy in this podcast episode today.
00:04:24
Lore Alexander
Oh sure yeah. Haha! Love it.
00:04:30
Kyra
Um, but I was thinking about this ahead of time and the first thing that popped up into my brain was the like, the like conflict styles in narratives, the like man versus society, a man versus, and I was just like man versus self is my creative arc.
00:04:47
Kyra
I was super creative as a child in terms of like creative writing was my outlet. I didn't want to do art because my older sister was an artist and I cannot be the same as her, but I was super into creative writing and then about the same time that puberty happened the perfectionism happened and I got super in my head and stopped creative writing and didn't do Anything that made me feel creative for like, I don't know, five, 10 years, however time works. Um, and then in the process of healing that I've done in the last five years, that's led me to this coaching journey have re embraced.
00:05:30
Kyra
maybe not the same level of like artistic creativity.
00:05:32
Lore Alexander
Mm hmm.
00:05:34
Kyra
I still don't do much creative writing, but recognizing where I have creativity in other areas of my life in building a business, in being creative with my relationship with myself, with my gender, um and the like forms of creativity that people don't talk about as much that are just like
00:05:46
Lore Alexander
Mm-hmm. Yep.
00:05:54
Kyra
building relationships and being a human in the world and creating a space that you like and thrive in. um Yeah.
00:06:03
Kyra
Those are words.
00:06:03
Lore Alexander
Oh. Those are words and you said them beautifully.
00:06:07
Kyra
Thanks.
00:06:11
Lore Alexander
hey that i I hear so much of just like the similar sentiments like I've talked to a lot of people on this podcast over the years and so many times it's like yeah as children we're just like yeah like I'm gonna make whatever and I don't care
00:06:25
Kyra
Hm?
Capitalism vs. Creativity
00:06:28
Lore Alexander
what this looks like let me scribble it out and like
00:06:31
Lore Alexander
It's delightful. And then like we hit puberty. We start to like get into that big like comparison mode. And then on top of like maybe having unsupportive adults in our lives,
00:06:44
Lore Alexander
um like just the ah but life is just not life as it is now is just not set up to really encourage that creativity to continue thriving past childhood.
00:06:55
Kyra
Yeah. Yeah, we have so many, it's so many lessons.
00:06:57
Lore Alexander
And it sucks.
00:07:00
Kyra
I've watched this in my very ADHD wife. I love her very much, but she'll like pick up a hobby and immediately be like, okay, how can I make money off of this? And it's the same thing for a lot of people of like, if I'm being creative, then it has to serve capitalism because of gig economy and productivity culture bullshit that I, we could talk about that soapbox in and of itself for two hours straight.
00:07:10
Lore Alexander
Mmhmm. Yeah.
00:07:25
Kyra
But like, When you reach adulthood, suddenly everything about your life is supposed to be something that you can market and make money off of and produce for other people to serve other people.
00:07:28
Lore Alexander
Mmhmm.
00:07:37
Kyra
And it is the worst and I hate it.
00:07:41
Lore Alexander
it's terrible
00:07:44
Kyra
And terrible for creativity.
00:07:45
Lore Alexander
i
00:07:46
Lore Alexander
it's
00:07:46
Kyra
I don't want, I don't want to be creative for other people.
00:07:49
Kyra
I want to be creative for things that I like. The end.
00:07:52
Lore Alexander
Yeah, exactly. I was actually thinking about this just a second ago because I was I've been um trying to don I don't even know if I can say I've been trying to it's been on my radar that I want to be like more involved in the arts community where I live like in Tacoma and like I've like done some interviews with like artists here in Tacoma and so like that's like one way I've been doing it but then I'm like I should really like get my art like out in front of people and then I'm just like I don't want to not not because and it's it's not because I don't know I'm sure there is an aspect of it that there's like fear of putting myself out there I'm sure that that's in there I'm sure that's in the mix but like another part is just like
00:08:23
Kyra
Too much work.
00:08:40
Lore Alexander
But that also just adds a level of pressure to my art that I don't really want to have. Like, I just like making my art for me.
00:08:47
Kyra
Yeah.
00:08:48
Lore Alexander
And I think that's okay and good. Weird.
00:08:52
Kyra
Yeah. Weird?
00:08:54
Lore Alexander
Weird.
00:08:54
Kyra
Who knew?
00:08:54
Lore Alexander
um
00:08:55
Kyra
I think that makes sense why people like... get all up in their head about it, about like when puberty hits or somewhere along that lines because it's about the same time but I think, hu don't quote me on this, I don't know the exact science, um now I'm super curious and I'll go down a rabbit hole about it later, but I think that's about the same time that your brain starts to conceptualize that other people are observing you and are like people who exist in the world and they're like you're not the only one who exists sort of a thing and so the like
00:09:23
Lore Alexander
Yeah, I mean that would make sense, yeah.
00:09:25
Kyra
having that be hand in hand with oh god people are watching what I'm doing or like I used to trade creative writing with a friend in high school and we were always great and non-judgmental but still the act of being perceived was not the best for my very perfectionist little brain just like in general
00:09:39
Lore Alexander
Yeah. Yeah, being perceived as a no bueno over here. I hate being perceived. No thanks.
00:09:53
Kyra
Talk about a neurodivergent vibe. Yeah.
00:09:55
Lore Alexander
yeah Yeah, speaking of neurodivergence, how does neurodivergence impact creativity?
00:10:04
Kyra
So many ways, so many ways.
00:10:04
Lore Alexander
Let's talk about it.
00:10:06
Kyra
So the people that I serve are mostly autistic and ADHD on some fun combination thereof. And of course there's always trauma in there because of the world we live in.
00:10:16
Kyra
And um I feel like like the neurodivergence of being autistic and not realizing it is a different, you words are hard.
00:10:30
Kyra
Autistic people inherit ah different messages than ADHD people do about creativity, about themselves, of course. And then if you got the combination, then you just get all the messages. You're welcome. Good luck. The conversation that I have over and over with autistic clients is the like, I'm not creative. I just don't have creativity. My brain doesn't work that way. um The creative part of my practice is actually is that we do a lot of like for folks for who it works because I like shift what I'm doing to fit people's brains obviously but um we play a lot with emotional visualization which is really creative like a creative thing of imagining your emotions as an energy in your body of has color it has texture it has temperature
00:11:18
Kyra
and gives your brain a concrete way to process an emotion and get curious and sit with it rather than resisting it and getting all caught up in the mental stories about it. So we sit down to do this and every autistic client I've ever had is like, I don't know what emotions look like. And then I'm like, okay, let's dig into it a little bit more. And they always have this very clear, very specific picture of like, it lives in between my shoulder blades and it's like effervescent golden bubbles. And I'm like, bullshit, you're not creative.
00:11:46
Kyra
I'm not creative person wouldn't come up with that.
00:11:47
Lore Alexander
I don't know how to do this. OK, listen, it's pink. It has this texture. It's the it's the color of a sunrise on a on April 4th.
00:11:57
Kyra
But we learn all these lessons of like, especially if your brain is different, that this isn't the way I'm supposed to be creative.
00:12:03
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:12:03
Kyra
This isn't the way I'm supposed to experience emotions. I'm supposed to know what it feels like in these five color words or whatever.
00:12:11
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:12:12
Kyra
So the autistic experience is more like my creativity looks different than I was taught. It was allowed to look like it might look more structured. I might like organizing my colors in a various, like maybe I just like doing geometric rainbows and I don't want to scribble all over the page, but I'm still creative and I like releasing that expectation of what other people expected my creativity to look like is the big, the character arc for the autistic brain.
00:12:29
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:12:42
Kyra
And then I think the ADHD brain doesn't absorb as many lessons about not being creative because ADHD brains do, in my experience, they look like they're centered more towards art artistic pursuits. I have a lot more friends who pick up artistic hobbies that have ADHD, but they have a lot more inherited lessons about like,
00:13:02
Kyra
judging themselves for not completing things, of course.
00:13:06
Lore Alexander
Yeah, right.
00:13:07
Kyra
So like I'll like draw for six months, but then I'll get distracted by cross-stitching, and then I'll get distracted by creative writing, and then I'll get distracted by leatherworking as my wife's newest hobby. that bought all the things for and has since not touched in the last month, you know?
00:13:23
Kyra
So then their perfectionism shows up in a different way of like, I can make a thing, but I'm also constantly going to be judging myself for the 10 other things sitting on my shelf back there that I was supposed to make six months ago.
00:13:23
Lore Alexander
ye
00:13:34
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:13:34
Kyra
And then that gets in the way of creativity because of all the things that I should finish and never did. That was a lot of words.
00:13:40
Lore Alexander
I feel like, no, this is excellent.
00:13:41
Kyra
I have so many thoughts about this.
00:13:43
Lore Alexander
I feel like capitalism also plays into that that story of like, well, if I can't finish something, that means that it's not like a continuous thing. That means it's not like a job. It's not worth my time.
00:13:54
Lore Alexander
if Again, it's not monetizable.
Multi-Potentiality vs. Capitalist Norms
00:13:56
Lore Alexander
It's not something that I can make a brand off of or make that my my thing.
00:13:56
Kyra
Yeah.
00:14:00
Lore Alexander
It's just like, have you heard the term multi-potential?
00:14:00
Kyra
Totally. No, this is a new term for me. Tell me more.
00:14:07
Lore Alexander
Oh, it's an excellent term, especially for ADHD folks. um But it's just like this idea of like you you have so many different interests and like in lots of broad categories that don't necessarily line up. And like you can pursue all of those like fun things that you want to explore. And like it doesn't it doesn't mean that you like i don't know aren't doing life right because you haven't picked one life path and chosen one single. like thing to be your identity.
00:14:38
Kyra
Yeah, totally.
00:14:39
Lore Alexander
um Yeah.
00:14:41
Kyra
Amazing.
00:14:41
Lore Alexander
It's great.
00:14:42
Kyra
This is very classic. Yes, that is the ADHD experience.
00:14:45
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:14:46
Kyra
And then you get a lot of lessons about how you're not good enough because you can't commit to a thing.
00:14:49
Lore Alexander
Yes, exactly. Boo. Boo, we hate that.
00:14:53
Kyra
Yeah.
00:14:54
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:14:56
Lore Alexander
I love what you're talking about with the um the like depicting emotions. That's one of my favorite things to do for my own practice is like make little pictures of my feelings on any given day.
00:15:05
Kyra
Yeah.
00:15:10
Kyra
Oh, it's so good.
00:15:11
Lore Alexander
um and it's just so It's so fun. and It's one of my favorite practices to just envision what my emotions look like. and ah There's, there's a lot of good, I mean, I could talk about that practice for a very long time, but especially that idea of like, what is creativity?
00:15:27
Lore Alexander
And like, creativity being a time where you touch base with how you're feeling and giving it a name or giving it a color.
00:15:33
Kyra
Yay.
00:15:37
Lore Alexander
And all this stuff, it's that in itself is a creative practice, whether or not you actually draw it on the page or whatever, or try to depict it, just that thought experiment and that
00:15:44
Kyra
Totally. and
00:15:48
Lore Alexander
playfulness and checking in with yourself is a creative act.
00:15:51
Kyra
Yeah, it's super helpful. I was thinking about that a lot in the context of the work that I do, which is not classically creative. I'm not an art therapist. It's not the talk about black and white autistic brains and definitions about what it means to be creative is I put art on paper ah um But the like the act of just exploring myself and getting curious about how my brain works and like describing my emotions as they exist to me and also playing with all of the tools that I have in my sandbox of is emotional visual visualization the tool that's going to work for me today?
00:16:27
Kyra
Do I just need to touch dirt? Do I need to do some mindset work?
00:16:29
Lore Alexander
Mmhmm.
00:16:32
Kyra
Do I need to go like to use accountability and mirroring with a friend. All of those tools are its own form of creativity around like being creative in my relationship with myself and how I connect to myself and understand my own brain and without Like, without the courage to do all of that imperfectly as well, a lot of people can like start all of this self care work and then they get two months in and they're like, Oh my God, I haven't used all of my tools and I've forgotten 10 of the 12 tools that I've learned and it's all doomed and
00:17:12
Kyra
I just give up because I'm broken forever. I'm
Embracing Imperfection in Self-Care
00:17:15
Kyra
like, no, no, this is like we're experimenting. We're playing with what works and it'll be different every day.
00:17:20
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:17:23
Lore Alexander
yeah And that's so important to remember, especially when you're neurodivergent, the whole like getting things right is like a real big hang up.
00:17:29
Kyra
Yeah.
00:17:31
Lore Alexander
Like for me, getting getting things right is just like, ah like I have to get it right, ah including self-care.
00:17:31
Kyra
It's a lie. Yeah.
00:17:39
Kyra
I tend to find that I always, yeah, I tend to spend like the first month with a new client giving them some tools for self care. We play with a new one every week. And then about a month in, they're like, I don't remember all of the tools and I'm stressed because I'm supposed to be doing all the things and I'm like, wait, pause, hold on.
00:17:56
Kyra
The tools that are important to you will come back.
00:17:59
Lore Alexander
yeah
00:17:59
Kyra
You're ADHD. I'm not going to expect you to remember all these tools and practice all of them perfectly. That's just setting yourself up for more failure and more self judgment.
00:18:05
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:18:07
Kyra
Trust your intuition the same way you would if you were drawing your emotions on a page and pick the tools that work for you and explore.
00:18:17
Lore Alexander
Yeah, exactly. Well, we're on. We made our way to this idea of perfectionism, having to get things exactly right.
00:18:26
Kyra
Hey.
00:18:29
Kyra
yeah
00:18:29
Lore Alexander
Uh, our, our friend, our enemy.
00:18:34
Kyra
in a Complicated relationship with perfection.
00:18:36
Lore Alexander
Complicated relationship with perfectionism.
00:18:40
Kyra
ah Perfection doesn't exist.
00:18:41
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:18:44
Lore Alexander
It does not.
00:18:46
Kyra
The end? Hard stop. But your brain would really like it to exist, because then everything would be sunshine and rainbows forever.
00:18:50
Lore Alexander
Yeah. At least like. Exactly. At least like the definition as we use it today of like perfection as in having zero errors.
00:19:04
Kyra
Yeah.
00:19:05
Lore Alexander
um That does not exist.
00:19:07
Kyra
True.
00:19:08
Lore Alexander
um Maybe. Errors isn't the right word.
00:19:13
Kyra
Flaws.
00:19:13
Lore Alexander
flaws. Yeah, no mistakes, no flaws. That kind of perfect doesn't exist. But my favorite definition of perfection being like complete or finished. Absolutely things can be complete and finished all the time. Things are complete and finished. But we don't use it this way. And that's the problem.
00:19:36
Kyra
This also brings up so many thoughts for me about like, what does it mean for something to be complete and finished?
00:19:41
Lore Alexander
Mm-hmm.
00:19:43
Kyra
And if we're in the perfectionism mindset that like I so look at my art and it looks complete or finished, but like also I could add five more details.
00:19:52
Lore Alexander
You could. I mean, you can always add more things.
00:19:54
Kyra
Yeah.
00:19:56
Lore Alexander
like and that's And that's the thing, too, is like it could always be different. It could always be...
00:20:02
Kyra
yeah
00:20:05
Lore Alexander
It, it could be, you know, quote unquote better. It could be quote unquote worse. But like, if you've decided like, you know what, I'm finished with this. This is done.
00:20:16
Lore Alexander
It's perfect.
00:20:17
Kyra
Yeah.
00:20:18
Lore Alexander
I really love that. Although like it's, it's kind of hard to just like change how we think of a word, but, um, I, I really like it is hard.
00:20:21
Kyra
Oh,
00:20:25
Kyra
I do it all the time. big part of our practice. It's a lot of work, but ah build up neuroplasticity and stuff like that for that kind of work.
00:20:30
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:20:33
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:20:35
Kyra
But it's super helpful.
00:20:35
Lore Alexander
Exactly.
00:20:36
Kyra
We like redefine words in my practice all the time for like, okay, what does it mean to be in a healthy relationship? Or, okay, you're holding yourself to standards that you set up for yourself.
00:20:48
Kyra
What if we just redefined those standards? What if we just make it up?
00:20:51
Lore Alexander
huh
00:20:51
Kyra
You made it up in the first place. Let's just make it up again, but different.
00:20:55
Lore Alexander
Yeah, exactly.
00:20:58
Kyra
Yeah, I have the, the concept of being complete and finished. I imagine is like a little bit as a little baby trigger for some ADHD brains, because like, what if I didn't finish it? And to those brains, if they're listening, hello, I see you. I would say, who says that's not finished? Who says incomplete isn't also finished?
00:21:21
Lore Alexander
Right.
00:21:23
Kyra
What if that just is your finished?
00:21:25
Lore Alexander
Yeah, and it can also be finished for now if you want.
00:21:29
Kyra
Yeah, you are finished with it currently.
00:21:33
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:21:34
Kyra
Yeah. I had a conversation with my sister who is also ADHD, I don't know, last month, six months ago, two years, what is time, um, about how she had finally released herself from the expectation that she's supposed to finish a book or she's supposed to finish a video game.
00:21:49
Kyra
And now like, we're just going to play the video game until I'm done with it. And then we're done. and I'm not gonna judge myself for not having quote-unquote finished it.
00:22:00
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:22:00
Kyra
I got bored of that last 10% of resolution after the climax, so I didn't bother. The end.
00:22:09
Lore Alexander
Yeah, I stopped finishing most books, to although I feel like I mean, a lot of that has to do with ah me being an editor and reading books is my job.
00:22:22
Lore Alexander
I mean, it's obviously more than just reading, but like, I'm looking at books every day.
00:22:22
Kyra
Fair.
00:22:26
Kyra
Yeah.
00:22:27
Lore Alexander
And so it's really hard to just read books in my free time. So unless a book is like, Really sticking with me. I don't finish it I've just I've just embraced that part of my life is gone Finishing books is for past lore not for future law yeah yeah true So then what does what does imperfection look like for your creativity and
00:22:33
Kyra
That's fair.
00:22:45
Kyra
ah Yeah, absolutely valid. Especially if you gotta to do it for a living.
00:22:59
Kyra
Yay, so many things. um In my personal life, my ah biggest focus on imperfection right now has been in my business itself. I've been building
Building a Business Without Perfection
00:23:11
Kyra
up this business for almost two years now. I started doing it very part time while I was still working in biotech as a lab sciency person.
00:23:22
Kyra
um And one of the best business advice things that I heard repeatedly starting from very early on was if you wait for it to be perfect, it will never be released.
00:23:33
Lore Alexander
Mm hmm.
00:23:33
Kyra
And a lot of the life coaching circles talk about like creating content regularly. And so I've played with a blog, I've played with TikTok. None of them have stuck yet. So we're just exploring with other things.
00:23:44
Kyra
But in all of that, making my website and starting a TikTok and starting social media in playing with all the different things that I could do. If I had waited for any of those things to be perfect, if I had tried to make any of those things perfect, I would literally never have started my business.
00:23:59
Kyra
In fact, I was thinking about starting my business and the only way that it happened was when I mentioned it to my physical therapist and she got all excited and she texted me the next day and was like, I have a client for you.
00:23:59
Lore Alexander
yeah
00:24:09
Kyra
What's your pitch? And I was like, well, I don't have time to get it perfect. So here we go.
00:24:14
Lore Alexander
Oh my god, I love it.
00:24:15
Kyra
Oh god! I guess I'm doing the thing. ah So like I was coaching for a solid three or four months before I even had a business license. Like we did not do any of this perfectly and I'm still making money and people are still paying me.
00:24:23
Lore Alexander
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:27
Kyra
We're still doing great and i like I was not certified. I just now got the final of my four very like small low effort online certifications but still I'm finally certified as a master coach as of two hours ago.
00:24:41
Lore Alexander
Ooh! Congratulations!
00:24:44
Kyra
But um yeah so that exercise of building a business has to be imperfect because if you're doing and and the same is true for any career if you're waiting for it to be perfect you will never do anything.
00:24:56
Lore Alexander
Yeah, that was...
00:24:58
Kyra
I was also showing up in D and&D last night of like, how can I be imperfect in my role play? Cause I'm never going to have the perfect thing to say or the perfect plan. We sat a couple of weeks ago, we tried to like plan the perfect ambush and we sat there for 45 minutes trying to plan the perfect ambush and it fell apart in the, so it's five seconds.
00:25:17
Lore Alexander
immediately it always falls apart immediately we were like why did I yeah
00:25:20
Kyra
Someone does magic without checking with the party first, and then there was a magic-sensing goblin that was like, fuck you? Yeah, it was a mess.
00:25:30
Kyra
But yeah, I think imperfection is a practice sort of everywhere.
00:25:30
Lore Alexander
ah yeah
00:25:36
Kyra
and This is sort of getting into a future question that was on the list, but the like, the practice of imperfection in all of your life is also a practice of trusting yourself and of being okay with you being imperfect because you are, you're a human, you have a human brain, you're never going to be perfect with everything, you're always going to fuck up.
00:25:54
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:26:00
Kyra
um And so the more I can be imperfect in creative pursuits, in starting a bullet journal and then ruining the first page intentionally to check my brain into thinking that I don't need it to be perfect, um the better I get at also giving myself grace when I'm just a human who says a dumb thing or hurts someone's feelings or doesn't meet the goal that I wanted to meet.
00:26:10
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:26:25
Kyra
um All of that like imperfection work is tied together.
00:26:30
Lore Alexander
Yeah, it absolutely is. I had the the same experience starting my business, which is how I ended up like going down this path of like ugly art and like ugly podcasts and ugly writing and whatever else make it terrible. um Because like I started my business and then I was like, Oh God, I have to like say stuff on social media and I have to email people and I have to make a web website that can't have any typos on it because I'm advertising editing services.
00:26:59
Kyra
Right? No.
00:27:05
Lore Alexander
So I have to be absolutely perfect, which, right?
00:27:09
Kyra
i All of my spacing must be excellent despite the fact that all of the website editors are also a little bit janky. Yeah.
00:27:18
Lore Alexander
Yeah, yeah, like every everything has to be completely aligned, which like this actually happened to me once because I I went and like changed some things. I was like re like doing some new copy editing on my website or copywriting rather. And I like added it like I added a typo that like I didn't checked early enough and there was a typo on my website and then a client, a potential client was like, um, is this typo on your website supposed to be, I was just like mortified.
00:27:45
Kyra
Right.
00:27:54
Kyra
ah
00:27:57
Lore Alexander
But because I had like done so much work on practicing imperfection on like doing like mindfulness exercises of just like,
00:28:02
Kyra
you
00:28:10
Lore Alexander
trying to train and teach my body that it is safe to make mistakes and that like I am not gonna be cast out from society and eaten by bears if I make a mistake, that's not gonna happen.
00:28:15
Kyra
Yeah.
00:28:22
Kyra
um man
00:28:24
Lore Alexander
so it's So it's okay. And so I was able to respond to that message and just kind of make a joke out of it. I'm like, ah, even editors need editors. We're all human beings. like It's all you know whatever.
00:28:36
Lore Alexander
And then she never responded.
00:28:36
Kyra
yeah
00:28:37
Lore Alexander
I'm like, okay, bye. But whatever. That experience did not break me. um and like did not make me say like oh no this terrible thing happened and now I can't be an editor anymore it's like no of course not like a mistake happened I fixed it she's never gonna call me but that's okay ah like there's other people I don't know it's literally all right um yeah just the yeah it it really does train your your body
00:28:50
Kyra
Right.
00:29:09
Lore Alexander
Um, and your mind's just like love and accept yourself a lot more for all of your messiness, for all of your imperfection.
00:29:14
Kyra
Yeah.
00:29:18
Kyra
Totally.
00:29:18
Lore Alexander
Um, it's a really, creativity is a really good place to like practice that.
00:29:22
Kyra
Yeah, I think creativity, like it feels like a safer place to practice because one, it's not, other people don't have to see it.
00:29:22
Lore Alexander
Um, yeah.
00:29:31
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:29:31
Kyra
I don't have to mess up an interaction with another human and then worry about what they think about me.
00:29:35
Lore Alexander
yeah
00:29:35
Kyra
I can just mess up in a page that I never show anyone ever. And especially for autistic and ADHD brains, having something concrete that you're producing is also a super helpful and all human brains, but especially neurodivergent brains.
00:29:50
Kyra
Having something concrete and physical that you can work through rather than just thinking about your brain. um One, activates more centers of your brain. Two, for ADHD folks, like it like just things that aren't concrete don't sink into your memory.
00:30:11
Kyra
Like there's a bunch of science about short-term memory in ADHD and long-term memory in ADHD. And there's trauma that also messes with memory formation. So having something that's physical and concrete makes the thing more functional in your brain and also is helpful for autistic brains to catch onto of like concrete things feel more satisfying than squidgy things that might happen in your brain.
00:30:35
Kyra
So yeah.
00:30:37
Lore Alexander
Fascinating. That's really interesting.
00:30:40
Kyra
It's a bunch of brain science that I'm not great at explaining. And only barely now.
00:30:44
Lore Alexander
No, I think great. My brain is just because like, I don't know, I, I just kind of stumbled into this. method of intentionally making bad things in order to foster this like change in myself.
00:30:56
Kyra
Yeah.
00:31:04
Lore Alexander
And I just kind of stumbled into it and was like this is fun and I'm having a good time and it's making me feel like interested and curious and like it's opening up a lot of things for me.
00:31:05
Kyra
yeah
00:31:14
Kyra
Totally.
00:31:14
Lore Alexander
I'm going to keep exploring this. And then like then I'm just like, everybody should do this. But like I just stumbled into doing this like by happenstance. And then every once in a while, I'll learn like a piece of brain science or just like things that are just like, oh, that makes sense.
00:31:30
Lore Alexander
The concrete experience to apply to this idea that's very abstract of safety in imperfections.
00:31:37
Kyra
Yeah.
00:31:39
Lore Alexander
What does that mean? I don't know what that means. I don't know what that feels like in my body.
00:31:43
Kyra
Right.
00:31:44
Lore Alexander
But actually doing something concrete can help you feel that in a more concrete way and help you learn that lesson to then apply it going forward instead of just, you know, when you read a self health book and you're like, Oh my gosh, this book is life changing.
00:31:51
Kyra
yeah
00:31:58
Lore Alexander
I love everything that they're talking about.
00:31:59
Kyra
Right. I have so many thoughts, they're so smart, and then you close the book and you're like, I remember none of it.
00:32:04
Lore Alexander
You never think of it again.
00:32:04
Kyra
It's all gone.
00:32:07
Lore Alexander
Just like, nope, okay, that well was a nice thought experiment. Guess it's gone now. You're never gonna think about that again.
00:32:15
Kyra
Uh, yeah, there's also something in, I think, in having something concrete in front of you, especially with like, art and something that's in physical space and I think this is the same reason why like journaling and writing things down on paper works better for my brain to help me remember it than typing it because typing it is only barely physical space that it gets you I think out of your head and into your body so it's even its own form of like grounding your nervous system in physical space like
00:32:35
Lore Alexander
yeah
00:32:48
Kyra
literally color touch paper. I have to be in physical space to be aware of the paper and the pencil in front of me and I cannot be like at as much at least lost in my thoughts and my own drama because I'm more grounded in my body and my in physical space without having to actually be aware of my body for folks for whom that feels deeply unsafe.
00:33:02
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:33:13
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:33:16
Kyra
Yeah.
00:33:17
Lore Alexander
So true.
00:33:18
Kyra
Brains are so weird, neuroscience is wild, and we only barely know what we're talking about.
00:33:22
Lore Alexander
It's true.
00:33:25
Kyra
I think I was actually, I was talking to a friend about that as well while I was thinking about creativity the other day that um when I was thinking about creativity in
00:33:25
Lore Alexander
allie
00:33:36
Kyra
my practice in the like mindset and self-care and processing emotions work and I was like it's all an experiment and then I was like how does that reconcile with how we were taught that science experiments are like the antithesis of art and the like right brain versus left brain thing that was supposed to be science for a long time and fun fact is a lie. Your brain doesn't work like that. um All of your brain is working together all the time. You don't have a logical and a creative side of your brain. It's all just your brain um that
00:34:10
Kyra
we think that the like experiments and the logical are the opposite of creativity and then in my like five plus years in the sciences where I'm supposed to have all of this knowledge like the more you get into a science degree the more you're like oh we absolutely know nothing and all of this is made up the amount of times in a lab that like I was doing manufacturing all of this science was like deeply researched and we do what was happening and then I would hold up a plate and I'd be like why is there white stuff in that and be like I don't know It's a mystery. We should probably remake it. It might be contaminated. Nobody knows.
00:34:46
Lore Alexander
something happened something happened you know not what yeah one like yeah just the I don't know if this is a coherent that it might not be maybe
00:34:46
Kyra
The amount of times that scientists are just like, it's magic? If the scientists don't know what's happening in the world, were ah it's nothing is nothing is static. We're all making it up as we go.
00:35:10
Kyra
Embrace imperfection, it's fine, make words anyway.
00:35:12
Lore Alexander
Well, now it's kind of running away from me. So now I'm like, wait, what was I even thinking? It's kind of gone now. I don't know.
00:35:19
Kyra
Okay, something about science.
00:35:20
Lore Alexander
Something about science, something about creativity and so and science, not being compatible. Oh, I was going to mention, like, aren't they now lumped together? And like, uh, it's not just, yeah, it's steam now.
00:35:32
Kyra
Steam, it's not just STEM, it's now steam, which like is also what are we leaving out?
00:35:35
Lore Alexander
Yeah. So it's like.
00:35:39
Kyra
history and language arts, because language arts is also arts.
00:35:43
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:35:46
Lore Alexander
Yeah, I don't
00:35:47
Kyra
should call up my mom who used to be a teacher and be like, okay, so there's STEAM, but like, what's the rest of it?
00:35:52
Kyra
Because I feel like STEAM is everything.
00:35:56
Lore Alexander
but what does it sound- science, tech, engineering, art, and math?
00:35:59
Kyra
Science, technology, engineering, art, and math.
00:36:04
Kyra
And if we're thinking about school subjects, like, yeah, the only thing that might not fit into that is the like history, social studies. But that's a form of science also.
00:36:10
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:36:13
Kyra
Like anthropology is a science.
00:36:16
Lore Alexander
Right. Well, now I'm just confused.
00:36:20
Kyra
I'm going to call my mom after this call and be like, what the fuck?
00:36:24
Lore Alexander
ah Yeah, fascinating.
00:36:26
Kyra
But yeah.
00:36:27
Lore Alexander
Anyway, um do you want to make some ugly art with me?
00:36:33
Kyra
yeah
Ugly Art Exercise: Freedom in Creativity
00:36:33
Kyra
i want to make some ugly art with you let me get paper oh god no i have a like full-on sketchbook in here let's do that said this reminds me of the super ugly art that i did two years ago i got a book i think it's called you're not an artist it was made by john green's wife who has an art degree and i think worked in
00:36:35
Lore Alexander
Cool.
00:36:38
Lore Alexander
Yeah, get some paper.
00:36:47
Lore Alexander
Oh nice. Mm! Okay.
00:37:02
Kyra
a museum for a long time. I don't know, it's by Sarah Urist Green, and there's a bunch of like prompts for making just bad art.
00:37:10
Lore Alexander
Nice.
00:37:10
Kyra
The prompt that I have still tucked in here is use, I think, a random household item or a food item to make art. So I made dip art with asparagus and and and garlic cloves.
00:37:22
Lore Alexander
I love it.
00:37:24
Kyra
I forgot about this, and I love it a lot.
00:37:28
Lore Alexander
Oh, that's so good.
00:37:29
Kyra
It's also ah just a green one. It's like a florist, sorta.
00:37:33
Lore Alexander
Yeah, I love it.
00:37:34
Kyra
Ugh.
00:37:35
Lore Alexander
Some textures.
00:37:35
Kyra
Amazing.
00:37:38
Lore Alexander
um Yeah, I think my my favorite thing to do with this, if you'd like, if well, first off, I will ask, would you like a prompt or would you like to just go?
00:37:48
Kyra
Yeah, I'll take a prompt.
00:37:50
Lore Alexander
Okay, my favorite thing to do is to let your hand be your guide to just do a scribble.
00:37:50
Kyra
Why not?
00:37:56
Lore Alexander
So whatever your hand wants to do, put a scribble on, and then we'll spend the next five minutes or so while we're chatting um to just kind of add to that and see, challenge yourself, like keep asking yourself, how could I make this weirder?
00:37:56
Kyra
Amazing.
00:38:11
Kyra
Amazing.
00:38:12
Lore Alexander
And then go.
00:38:13
Kyra
I like
00:38:15
Kyra
We're going to intentionally not color in lines. Fuck the lines. Fuck them.
00:38:21
Lore Alexander
We don't need lines. We don't need stupid lines.
00:38:25
Kyra
also have only very bright colored pens and markers and things, so it's going to be a very vibrant art.
00:38:34
Lore Alexander
Perfect. All right, this has turned into some kind of two-headed something. It's fun.
00:38:39
Kyra
Amazing.
00:38:42
Kyra
I'm going for some sort of abstract clump of amoebas, I think, is what's happening.
00:38:47
Lore Alexander
Ooh.
00:38:52
Lore Alexander
Um, what is like one of your, I, oh, wait, no, I did have a question earlier that I was going to ask you about, um, specifically like when you're with like autistic or ADHD, which is neurodivergent at large. Um, what do you think about like, I don't know.
00:39:12
Lore Alexander
I guess redefining we were talking about like how creativity doesn't have to be like what you put on a page like how would you help people kind of redefine what they view as creative like as creative in their life.
00:39:22
Kyra
Oh, that's a good question. The first question that popped into my head was just starting from what lights you up? What gives you passion? What gives you joy? What gives you feeling alive or present in your space? Just like enjoying the world. And if it's just like going outside and taking a walk, okay. Like maybe we get creative about where we're walking next.
00:39:52
Kyra
Maybe I like set myself some sort of weird creative goal next time I go out on the hike, like the reminded of the activity that some parents do with their kids where they like make a rainbow board or something and then you go on a walk and you try to find something of every color.
00:40:08
Lore Alexander
Yeah. ah i I tried this thing, and then a friend of mine sent me a post that was like recommending the same thing, which I was like, oh, that's fun.
00:40:17
Kyra
yeah
00:40:18
Lore Alexander
um But I decided to start like following a color. like I was just walking around my neighborhood, and I decided any time I see the color purple, I'm just going to turn and like go in that direction.
00:40:30
Kyra
Ooh.
00:40:30
Lore Alexander
And then I would just kind of like follow the purple around my neighborhood. And like it was a fun, like creative way to take a walk. just you know
00:40:38
Kyra
Yeah, right.
00:40:39
Lore Alexander
ended up somewhere different and I was like, oh, never been here before. It's fun.
00:40:42
Kyra
That's so good. ah
00:40:46
Kyra
Yeah, I think there's also like a big part of my work is, we talked about the emotional visualization, which is a big part of it, but the other big part of it, um especially for more like logic, e-brained, less emotionally driven, tends to be more often for autistic folks kind of a thing, is that we do a lot of mindset work as well. So like, what are your thoughts about creativity? When is the last time you were creative? Like, what are the thoughts that are getting in your way?
00:41:16
Kyra
And then usually part of the practice is we're going to dig five levels deeper because your lizard brain, your emotional brain is avoiding the actual root cause, which is usually, you know, my mom said when I was five that my art wasn't good enough. And I just carried that with me for 20 plus years.
00:41:35
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:41:35
Kyra
um And then once we get to the core of that thought, like you can take all of the action in the world, but if your thoughts are still stuck in those old patterns, the actions are going to be hard as fuck, but also is usually not going to give you the results that you want because you're showing up in a way that's not like in line with your goals, basically.
00:41:58
Kyra
Um, so once you find that core thought, then we gotta work on changing it, but you gotta work on changing it really, really slowly because your brain does not like to change core thoughts. They're core for a reason. They're very protective. So the like, what is my thought about creativity? It has to be perfect. I can't jump straight from there to I can be imperfect all of the time and everyone will love me forever. Your brain's going to call bullshit. It's like, you don't believe that.
00:42:27
Lore Alexander
Yeah, yeah Yeah, you need like a step ladder thought like what's the next baby step?
00:42:28
Kyra
No. um Yeah.
00:42:33
Lore Alexander
Yeah
00:42:34
Kyra
That's definitely my mentor called them ladder thoughts. And then I was like, now we've got hierarchy. And if I jump back around on the ladder, then I'm going to judge myself for not jumping back around.
00:42:40
Lore Alexander
Oh, that's, that's a really, yeah, excellent observation.
00:42:43
Kyra
So i had I had a client come up with a term, I think, or we brainstormed it together in session or something. But now we call them lily pad thoughts.
00:42:54
Lore Alexander
Cute.
00:42:55
Kyra
which I love, because like sometimes the lily pad's just going to sink, or it's going to float down the stream, and you're going to have to jump back to the last lily pad.
00:42:56
Lore Alexander
I really love that.
00:43:02
Kyra
Or like this one moved, and now it's helped.
00:43:02
Lore Alexander
Yeah!
00:43:04
Kyra
This is just the lily pad that I'm on right now.
00:43:06
Lore Alexander
I love that!
00:43:06
Kyra
And I can hop around, and I can do whatever I want. And like eventually, I want to get to the other shore of the stream. But all of this is movable, and I'm not sure exactly when or how I'm going to get there.
00:43:17
Lore Alexander
Yes.
00:43:17
Kyra
But this is the one that's accessible, and it's the one that I can believe right now. So I'll stick with that for now.
00:43:24
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:43:25
Kyra
You know?
00:43:26
Lore Alexander
That's so good. I love that. I love lily pad thoughts.
00:43:28
Kyra
Yeah.
00:43:30
Lore Alexander
um That's time for our for our ugly art, by the way.
00:43:32
Kyra
Oh no, I have so much more to do. Okay, hold on. It's just color in the middle. It's looking very empty.
00:43:40
Kyra
And then, inimidamani mo. Little heart. Okay, I did it.
00:43:48
Lore Alexander
Perfect. Let's see it.
00:43:50
Kyra
This is a very big page. This is my ugly heart, and I love it a lot.
00:43:52
Lore Alexander
Perfect. Oh, it's so scribbly and Van Gogh-y.
00:43:55
Kyra
Yeah!
00:43:57
Lore Alexander
Here's mine.
00:44:00
Kyra
Is it a... his looks like a snail dragon.
00:44:01
Lore Alexander
it
00:44:03
Kyra
It's a little blurry.
00:44:03
Lore Alexander
it's a Yeah, it did indeed turn into a snail dragon kind of stepping in a puddle that also has a mouth for some reason.
00:44:10
Kyra
Amazing.
00:44:11
Lore Alexander
I don't know.
00:44:11
Kyra
Yes. Sold.
00:44:13
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:44:13
Kyra
The puddle is also a face.
00:44:16
Lore Alexander
Yeah, the puddle turned into a face. um If you want to send me a picture of yours, I like to share them on Instagram when I post the episode.
00:44:23
Kyra
Absolutely.
00:44:27
Lore Alexander
So if you're listening and you're like, I want to see what you made, you can go to my Instagram and check it out. That'll be andll be there for you. But, um, lovely.
00:44:34
Kyra
So good.
00:44:36
Lore Alexander
Thanks for making stuff with me um and sharing about lily pad thoughts.
00:44:38
Kyra
Yeah.
00:44:41
Kyra
So much fun.
00:44:42
Lore Alexander
Uh, yes.
00:44:42
Kyra
Yeah, it's like anti affirmation culture.
00:44:46
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:44:46
Kyra
We don't love like, okay, people get angry about me if I say that affirmations don't work.
00:44:46
Lore Alexander
yeah
00:44:51
Kyra
They do work if you craft them carefully as thoughts that you believe, or if you're really into brute forcing it, but it's the like, what thought do I believe, not the jump straight to the positive thought that I wish I believed one day.
00:45:04
Lore Alexander
Yeah. Do you have like an example of a Lily pad thought for like.
00:45:10
Kyra
I have a whole ladder right here.
00:45:11
Lore Alexander
I can make- I can make imperfect things and not be a total poo-poo head.
00:45:14
Kyra
Actually, yeah. um Here we go. I want to feel the accomplishment of forward movement, literally a lily pad for my thought right now.
00:45:26
Kyra
um I am learning. we have We have weasel words in our lily pads a lot of like, I can't believe that I am good at showing up in my business yet, but I can believe that I am learning how to show up in my creativity or business or whatever.
00:45:29
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:45:38
Lore Alexander
yeah
00:45:40
Kyra
Um, it's possible that I can learn how to be creative. It's possible that I can learn to accept imperfection. It's possible. What if I deserve love no matter what, maybe perhaps sometimes it's my favorite Lily pad.
00:45:58
Kyra
It's just like, maybe if you ask it as a question, sometimes your brain will ah operate as a fetch quest and run away with it.
00:45:59
Lore Alexander
me
00:46:06
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:46:06
Kyra
Pro tips.
00:46:08
Lore Alexander
Love those. Thanks so much for sharing.
00:46:10
Kyra
Yeah. It's my favorite.
00:46:12
Lore Alexander
ah We're about wrapping up on time, but I want to um give you an opportunity to say what you have going on, anything that people can support you or come hang out with you or all those good things.
00:46:20
Kyra
Stay away.
00:46:26
Lore Alexander
I'll have um i'll have your website and social medias in the show notes for people, but you can speak them here, but you don't have to like spell them out.
00:46:31
Kyra
Amazing.
00:46:34
Lore Alexander
Anyway, go ahead.
00:46:35
Kyra
Sure. Yeah. All of the spelling and stuff. Great. Yes. Understood. Yes. um My website is joyfuldivergence.com. The main name of my business is Joyful Divergence and I love it a lot. um And that links to all my social medias and stuff as well. ah The next thing that this is this is my is my impetus to actually get it done and on the books ah is that I'm going to be starting, I believe it will be weekly, but double check the info because I may have changed my mind by the time this episode comes out.
00:47:04
Kyra
um But I'm going to be starting to do co-working sessions where you can bring whatever you want to work on, whether it's your ugly art, whether it's the like dishes that have been piling up in your sink, whether it's a work project. um And we're just going to like hang out and use that body doubling space. And there will be an optional pause in the middle to process whatever is getting you stuck, whether that's a mindset or whether that's processing, breaking down the next step of the task.
00:47:34
Kyra
um And just building that community of being imperfect with other people and still getting things done and getting through the executive dysfunction sticking points. um So there will be a new page on my website, ah backslash coworking.
00:47:52
Kyra
that will give you more information on how to join the fun. And if you want to work on all the mindset and the emotional stuff and figure out how to be authentically ADHD or autistic in a world that's not designed for you, I am still open for coaching sessions and whatever pay what you can price point that works for you, which is huge.
00:48:14
Kyra
um
00:48:16
Kyra
Yeah, come hang out with me. I think that's it. Is that it? Yeah, that's it for now.
00:48:22
Lore Alexander
For now, da-dun!
00:48:26
Kyra
Yeah.
00:48:27
Lore Alexander
Sweet! Awesome. Thank you so much for being here and um everybody go check out Kira and ah make something ugly.
00:48:33
Kyra
Whoo.
00:48:37
Lore Alexander
Be yourself. and Being perfect always. No, one I don't know. Do do you. Okay. Keep it ugly.
00:48:44
Kyra
you did great
00:48:44
Lore Alexander
Bye.
00:48:45
Kyra
the word
Outro
00:49:08
Kyra
Yeah, you did great. Good work.