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Shifting Paradigms w/ Jamie Fiano
47 Plays17 days ago
In this episode, I'm joined by Tacoma artist Jamie Fiano (she/her). Jamie and I discuss how creativity is more than putting color to a page; it's how we live and how we interact with each other. And in that interaction, we open ourselves up to new ways of being. Creation can be a path to freeing ourselves from old trains of thought that no longer serve us; it can give us a safe place to practice embracing the void and imagining new paradigms. As Jamie so beautifully puts it, "Creativity is the creation of space which is safe, secure, and sacred."
You can find Jamie at local Tacoma events through Cascade Music Alliance, Creative Colloquy, and open mic nights at Soulberry Coffeehouse.
References:
Short story I couldn't remember the name of about "derivative art": Melancholy Elephants by Spider Robinson
Dimension 20: Fantasy High "Palimpsest"
Definition of "palimpsest"
Recommended
Transcript
Intro
Introduction and Host Details
00:00:39
Speaker
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Ugly Podcast. It's me, your host, Laura Alexander. They, them. I'm still a white androgynous person. I've got big round glasses and ah short curly hair and my girlfriend likes to describe it like those fuckboys where they have the long curly hair on the top and shaped on the sides. So I've got that fuckboy haircut going for me. um They got it
Introducing Jamie Fiano
00:01:05
Speaker
from me. So I have a great guest for you today. ah My guest is
00:01:12
Speaker
I love this description and I'm gonna savor speaking it. My guest is energetically invested in the decomposition of paradigms. She believes the traditional conceptualization of reality no longer benefits the beholders. She sources her materials for new paradigms from that which has been deemed taboo and integrates her discoveries into everyday reality through art that is scaffolded with values of collective care.
00:01:37
Speaker
In her own practice, she focuses on the art of thought, conversation, connection, movement, music, and poetry. Welcome, friend. Would you please ah introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and a brief physical description. Yeah. My name is Jamie Fiano. I use she her pronouns and I, yeah, I've got some outgrown hair. I love the, I love the fuck away.
00:02:08
Speaker
i had't ever thought of it like that like a did year haircut so it's like i did you guys they got it forview dude I've had it for a while and I'm pretty sure it's like a relatively new phenomenon amongst the fuck boys. so They're always stealing stuff from queer people. Honestly, like I don't mind that integration. like it's kind of
00:02:31
Speaker
Yeah, ah but yeah, so that I have, I got to my hair that I got distracted. I got to your hair though. Yeah, I've got these blue eyes with a little bit of a lace to them. A lace and a glaze. and Yeah, I'm a Caucasian with some freckles and some acne and some wrinkles and some big old smile lines. So yeah, I don't know. I love it. I describe myself easily, but yeah.
00:02:58
Speaker
Wonderful, thank you. And thank you for agreeing to come join me today. This is very fun. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Yeah, I just want to start off by saying that I really appreciate the way you dialogue. And this is an opportunity to say that I also appreciate the way that you hold silence in the conversations that we've had. I was thinking about that today, and I don't just didn't there's a difference in what the spaces we hold silence in. And and i so I don't know how you function in other ways, but when it's just you and I, and we're like, you know, when we've been at the gym or something, you're like sitting with me and and in that silence, I feel really comfortable with you. So like, thank you for being a person like that. Yeah. Oh, that makes me so happy. I am yeah i thank thank you. That makes me really happy. I do. I do appreciate a good silence and
00:03:50
Speaker
i I also appreciate how you interact in those situations too. like You don't just like breeze by topics, which I so appreciate. You're just like, I need to sit with that for a second. And I'm like, yeah. These are thoughts we need to sit with. like Yeah, let's do it. Let's sit in silence for a second. like It's a really fun way to like deepen a conversation. And like yeah, it's I think it's really cool. so Sweet. Sweet. Here we are. Here we are in that space.
00:04:19
Speaker
And here we are,
Jamie's Relationship with Creativity
00:04:20
Speaker
let's do it. um Yeah, I would love to ah talk to you just more about your relationship to creativity, what has been like the story arc of creativity in your life. And yeah, what's your relationship with it today? Yeah, yeah. So I hadn't really thought of this and until you brought it up to me. So this is like, this is all very new thought. Um, I like, I wouldn't ever have described, I don't think I've ever, I don't know if I've ever described myself as creative. Um, like I don't think it's on my resume anywhere. That's not like the, that's not the metric for where I describe myself, but it's just like um a really generic version of me wouldn't even consider myself creative. And so I like, which it feels not to say that creativity, but it just like,
00:05:11
Speaker
it's not in my vernacular. And that was a little bit surprising to me because I do engage in and appreciate creativity in arts. And so like that caused me to dive in and I really did like look into my childhood and look into all of this. And so I think that like I still wouldn't necessarily call little me like creative um in the traditional sense of like I never like arts and crafts was not ever my thing. Like when I think of creativity on a level, right? Like here, here, we're going to enter into the levels of like the surface level, like what kind of.
00:05:48
Speaker
catches my mind first is I didn't know how to use crayons, I didn't know how to use colored pencils or anything. I never cut in straight lines. I was always outside of the lines. My pen marks were too dark. And so that really discouraged me from settling into this idea of creativity, I think, as a child. But now as an adult, I see that creativity is so much more than that.
00:06:08
Speaker
I can go back to my, and I was doing this this morning in reflection and I went back to my little kid self and I was like, but what in what ways are we both proud, both the child in me and the adult in me, both proud of the ways that we felt creative? And it was in the like social interactions and the emotional interactions and the like my adaptation, my skills of survival, where I felt like I was really creative as a kid. And so like,
00:06:35
Speaker
finding loopholes. like I found a lot of loopholes as a kid. and But yeah, so like i there were elements of create like there are elements of creativity that I reflect on um that came from having to navigate my upbringing. right So during my upbringing, I wouldn't have described myself as creative, but when I reflect on it, I do feel creative and that like I had to be.
00:07:00
Speaker
Um, and that another way that that was is like, uh, in interacting with my mom, like I said, social interactions were part of my creativity. And like, my mom was my primary caretaker and a way that I had to be creative and or a way that I learned to be creative in conversation and like emotional understanding, uh, was by like becoming a comedian or becoming an actor or performer with my mom to like, kind of, she,
00:07:31
Speaker
had really big mood swings. And so to kind of grab onto her moods, I would interact with her in a specific way and and then kind of bring her back. and you know And that started when I was really, really little. And so those are and and then you know in that instability, we were moving around a lot too. I don't know.
00:07:53
Speaker
Yeah. And and and so in movement, I was seeing a lot of new places. I was experiencing a lot of new things. I was um often alone and so like really receptive to what was around me because there weren't any like barriers. And them and so I think that gave me like, like it was an intake of landscape that I could then pull from later as an adult when I was able to enter into more imaginative spaces. Like I think as a child, I was really, oh, I wrote this down, okay, get me back to an anchor. I said, um creativity is the creation of space, which is safe, secure and sacred. And that was just a note to myself that I'm sharing it with you. Creativity is the creation of space, which is safe, secure and sacred. And I don't think I knew what safety felt like as a kid. Like I don't think I know what security felt like as a kid. And so my focus
00:08:49
Speaker
you know, it was to find that. And I found it outside and I found it in looking at people and learning from people and like experiencing them. And so like that created then the imaginary landscape that I pull from in my creativity now. um and Like the like the worlds of experiences that I've gone through as like an individual, you know, and like really just like, I feel like I just harness them anyway. So I keep going on that. I just like live live in the essence of like how life forms and develops and like time and change and like what it creates, you know, like I, um, yeah, I feel like I got to really, really sponge that up as a kid. Um, and I am just savoring it now as an adult. I'm like that, um,
00:09:43
Speaker
has been really difficult because there's been so many barriers, so many prickles, so many snags and just like this like finally me being able to like settle and sink into it um that I still like don't fully comprehend like the sense of security, the sense of safety that I actually do reside in because I have had to find it and secure it and attach myself to it and then express it. And that's where my creativity now is yeah is like in the expression phase.
Childhood and Social Creativity
00:10:11
Speaker
of like, I'm feeling like I can talk to people I'm feeling like I can connect with people I'm feeling like in that I can also make music and like, write poetry and like share it and Anyway, so yeah, does that kind of answer that question? yeah yeah Yeah. Okay. There were a lot of things that my brain grabbed onto. Okay. And one of them being like, how you define creative and like, how so many of us define creativity as like, it's putting
00:10:45
Speaker
a crayon to paper. it's putting It's like putting color on a page. um It's ah sharing that. it's But like creativity has so many so much more to it that is just really how we live our lives. um And it can be presented in so many different ways. um And so so I think that's why so many of us have that thought, because like I felt the same way. like I'm not a creative person. And so like I think it's because we see creativity as one thing, when really it's so many different things, and it comes out in so many different ways. So one of the things you said was, like
00:11:24
Speaker
Now creativity is expressing itself in, I think expressing itself was the word he used, but like in wanting to share it. And like, there's ah like so many different expressions of creativity and some of them are like living a creative life in your relationships and how you navigate the world. And ah other times it's actually creating an output that you then share with people. um So I think that's a really keen observation ah and and just like interpretation of like what is creative and where do I see it in myself? Because everybody has it in ourselves. I think it's really important to ask ourselves, where am I creative if not in this way of like coloring on paper or whatever. Yeah.
00:12:07
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, well, and it's just like, ah the the way that you were describing it, or like when you first responded was, you know, it made me think of multitudes, like, and that creativity isn't just like the, the multitudes itself, but the understanding that the multitudes exist within context of each other, like creativity is that strand, it feels like that like both ties it all together, like, explain like ah yes.
00:12:35
Speaker
yeah
Defining Creativity with Laura and Jamie
00:12:37
Speaker
But yeah, yeah, it's, so yeah, thank you for for reflecting that back. And yeah, I just like the way that makes me feel, you know, to understand that, to like, oh, it's like, if it feels freeing, it feels like, oh, anything creative.
00:12:54
Speaker
but not in a ah way where it gets diluted by the mass. It's where it's like, it actually adds to the context of the reality because it is like a multitude of multitudes. And though they share the name, that doesn't mean that they share like exact structure and model. It's still individual. It's still necessary as a part of a whole. um And I think that's kind of where the discouragement and expressing creativity comes from too. It's just like that, like, oh, well someone's already done it before.
00:13:22
Speaker
whatever you know like this is its own thing and like that's kind of what I hear but anyway that's kind of a yeah we'll have a rabbit trail no that's that's definitely we love rabbit trails here yeah yeah yeah I get that I get that a lot of that like fear of this isn't gonna be unique or this isn't this is like people have said this before so I don't need to say it yeah and it actually reminds me of there was this short story and I'm not gonna remember the name but I'm gonna put it in the show notes after once I remember it. um But there was this short story about like, oh no. Now my brain forgot the entire story. ok Basically the what it came down to was like, oh, because it was about um extending like copyright laws to be
00:14:11
Speaker
and to go like into eternity, to be infinite. um And like the danger of that is that like we have a finite lived experience and like all stories that have been told are just adaptations of stories that have been told before. like There is nothing new. You cannot come up with anything new. And like they talked about like music and how there are like I can't remember exactly how many but basically there are only so many ah ways you can rearrange musical notes and like there's like scientists who have like
00:14:42
Speaker
outlined them all. And like, those are the only ways you can rearrange musical notes, because it's a finite number of notes, right? um And so like, yeah, I don't know if I would say right to that. But yes, I hear what that is, like, and statistically, that makes sense to me. But yes, keep going. But like, which is why you hear so many songs like sound similar to other songs. You're like, Oh, this song, because it's similar because like the not you can only rearrange. Yes. And that makes sense. Yes. Yes. Yes. Right.
00:15:11
Speaker
Ah. But like, so it's more of like discovering thing things that are new instead of like truly coming up with you yeah quote unquote unique things. um You're like, you're discovering things. Anyway. Yes. Okay. Okay. that meant Yes. Yes. That's where I was going to. okay Yes, it does. It makes a lot of sense. It was just, I like got a little bit, um, when I hear people, uh, I touched on like musical notes and you're like, what? And you got to know, no, no, no, no, it wasn't that. No, no. Let me, um, pardon. I think I, uh,
00:15:42
Speaker
and where there's been a slight miscommunication that I think I can abridge here. yeah yeah yeah i i When people are ah telling me about ah science, I'm in science mode, and so I'm like, okay, this person says this, but like my science mode is in how do we bridge the like hard mathematical, natural science, whatever,
00:16:07
Speaker
with the social, psychological sciences, and I'm not saying this very well, but it's like, my brain kind of just is in, okay, I'm hearing one thing, is there something else that isn't quite included in there yet? And so when I heard that- Oh, I see what you're saying, yeah. Yes, okay, cool. And so when I heard you say that the statistic aspect of the music, not today, I was like, yes, but there's the feeling that goes into it, let us not forget. So when you were like, right, I was like, oh,
00:16:36
Speaker
Yeah, almost. Like, not quite. But yes, but not quite. Yes. And then and once you got to exactly the like, once you got toward finishing your sentence, which I didn't mean to interrupt, like you and we were on the same, we were saying this thinking the same thoughts, which is like, yeah, the it's not about creativity is not about and the what it sounds like, how it sounds similar, but it's like in the ways that it feels and sounds and was created differently.
00:17:05
Speaker
Yeah, is that kind of what you were saying with discovery? Yeah, exactly. And it's like, it's your, it's your perspective on it. And you are a unique individual in this world. And while, like the things that you want to say might have been said before, you haven't said them before. Exactly. you know Yeah, yeah. So say them. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, I have this.
00:17:26
Speaker
like dorky favorite word of mine it's called it's and i'm sure you know it i think we talked about this actually i think this is what our first conversations may be no if not i dreamed it you haven't said the word yet i don't know okay we'll get ready uh buckle up i guess uh so the word we can do is palimpsest um and it's yeah did i did we talk about this I don't know if we've talked about this, but I only know the word because of a Dimension 20 season ah where the the um
Creativity as Transformation and Paradigm Shift
00:18:01
Speaker
the bad guys in the show like were capturing people in palimpsests and like they were they were like locking people in these like gems that were called palimpsests. I don't know what the context that you're talking about is. That's interesting. That's what it was. I like that. I like fantasy. Okay, cool. yeah okay ah The understanding that I have of a palimpsest is that it is like a document that has like in them I don't have the timeframe of the etymology, but it is before erasers.
00:18:40
Speaker
We're invented the four times. I think so. I think so. Before like the yeah number two pencils, maybe, but it's like a document where, you know, you write something down and then basically function to remove what has been there originally.
00:18:57
Speaker
and cover it up with, like, or reuse it. um And then day the markings of what was before are usually still kind of visible within it. And so that's kind of, that was making me think of, why did I think of that? I got on a little spaced out because I got excited about the gems. I'm like, Spyro. So me chase that thought really quick.
00:19:26
Speaker
um Oh, yeah, just, ah you know, people ah seeing that something existed before, but also are within themselves like an expression of something different and new. And part of the beauty can be found in the ways that we've recycled, you know, and like that kind of goes back to like the decomposition the using of materials that have been done before, breaking them down and and filtering them through a newness that is the self. Yeah, yeah, totally.
00:19:56
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. That's been, I've been really into collage lately. That's been my preferred ah fun yeah oh my god medium right now. And it's been, i I love that idea of just like found materials and then just shaping them into something new. Yeah. yeah I love that. Yeah.
00:20:16
Speaker
um Speaking of like that decomposition ah in the intro, the beautiful intro that you wrote for me, um you talked about like the decomposition of paradigms, and so I wanted to talk more about like how do we use art to design and imagine new paradigms. Especially, I don't know, right now I i swear like every day I hear a new video or somebody talking about like we're in like a paradigm shift. like Yeah.
00:20:44
Speaker
cool And it's like, yeah, okay. What does that mean? What does that mean for us and for our art? And how can we engage in this? Like, yeah. Uh, yeah, cool. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Uh, part of that just like caused my heart to race a little bit. Cause it's like, that's, um, I haven't felt that way before. I haven't felt like I, the narrative is just saying there's a paradigm or we're in a paradigm shift.
00:21:08
Speaker
And so that's a cool positive reinforcement and of a reality that I want to become true. Like, I want to stay in paradigm shift. Oh, yeah. And I think we are. and So sick yeah. i And what does that look like creatively? How does that get expressed in art?
00:21:25
Speaker
The first thing that comes to mind for me is like animation and and stop motion and like claymation and I think this is where I really felt my brain be transported consistently and over time and like into new spaces. I think that's true for like TV in general. like It just really has the capability of doing that for for me when I was a kid and as an adult, not so much as an adult. it
00:22:02
Speaker
but animation and claymation consistently pull me into an imaginative space where anything is possible. um And its it's low stakes, it's not it's not a reflection of self or anything, so it's like it feels it felt like the first act of like liberating my mind, maybe. That's a little dramatic, dramatic but like it felt like an act of exiting reality and entering into imagination that didn't require any effort or critique or potential failure on my part, right? Like I was just like, yeah.
00:22:38
Speaker
so for you, Claymation helped you kind of get into a mind space that wasn't like wasn't that regular paradigm that we're used to living in. It wasn't the reality that we're forced to see and confront everything. Right. And it was it was because of like the connotations that I had around art as I was beginning to engage with it.
00:22:59
Speaker
um in my childhood, right? Like, because right now I'm, I'm like, there are constructs of thought that channel the way that I received the world. And I think that's like what a paradigm is, right? So that I'm kind of applying that to so everybody, but I'm speaking of it as if it's just me. But like, one of those was art in and of itself and creativity. And like, this conversation broke down a construct of thought in that
00:23:30
Speaker
and created more liberation. And so I think that claymation and animation were one of the first things that kind of like was a hammer to the construction of thought that I had around art and thus was also because creativity is so heavily attached to art as a thought, as a word, as like a creation of connotation and language, perpetuation and ideas and et cetera, et cetera.
00:23:55
Speaker
Um, if that makes sense is that the ability to have that freedom and experience that freedom allows me to break down thoughts that don't move me forward, but keep me attached to the systems of thought that I think perpetuate problematic behavior. And as like a person, creativity has been, let me see if I can really summarize this. Creativity has been, as I'm understanding it now, creativity has been what has like allowed me to survive that which was i like that which was really difficult to survive. It established resilience in me. And it's how I like share what resilience is. um And I think that like in paradigm shifts, there also has to be the certainty of an outcome. And resilience almost guarantees that.
00:24:54
Speaker
like that there is like the paradigm shift allows for something else to occur and like that can be ambiguous and that is okay. Like, yeah I think that there's this like almost like that there's the fear of like, no, of course I would never like, for me, like my ultimate.
00:25:13
Speaker
um I won't go into a space kind of feeling right like that I can attach to it was like if I was up in space and I was traveling to the moon and I like was one of those like in those I'm really going out there right now but like if I was in space I was maybe you need to delete this I don't know but like in space joy the food i' like imagine I like where you're going. I'm traveling my on the spaceship i'm going to the moon. I'm like not quite at the moon. I'm like in orbit in space. And like I'm thinking of all of these movies where there are people floating out in space and they're tethered with an umbilical cord to the spaceship. If I was in that position, there is nothing in the world that would get me to like take a machete to that and make me float out to space.
00:25:55
Speaker
right You know what I mean? like I look over at waterfalls sometimes and I'm like, maybe I could experience this jump. You know what I mean? Like the call of the void. but And i think I think for people, like there is that when we think of paradigm shifts, I think there's that sense of like, I would never explore it. I would never dive into that. I would never jump into that. And it's like, okay, so resilience, I think, and like the way that like I have personally you know experienced paradigm shifting is through of looking back and saying, regardless of the unpredictability, there's been this constant strain that I can see across the entire world, which is that there is a like not only a desire, but from that desire and ability to live and to thrive, regardless of circumstance, regardless of climate, regardless of everything. There is this weird, mysterious thread that can only really be like expressed through creativity, that lives and resounds. and like
00:26:53
Speaker
that promise is what I hope like allows us to realize then that the way that we are thinking now doesn't facilitate that life. Yeah, exactly. It like shuts it down. And that's why it kind of needs to be like, okay, we got to like, this thing that shutting us down needs to be kind of like deconstructed it and yeah into something new. Is that Does that make sense? Okay. I love, you I love where you, I know. And I loved where you ended up and I loved the, and I really loved the visual of being in space and like cutting that tether. Cause that's what it feels like. Like that's what your body, tell like your body sends signals to your brain. That's like, we're in danger. Please don't go down this path. Right. And like,
00:27:45
Speaker
like That's what happened to me like as I started exploring my creativity when I started my business and started getting myself out there, showing my face on social media, putting like showing my art. All of it felt like I was about to die and I was having panic attacks constantly because my body's like, you are in you're floating in space and you are trying to clip like snip the tether.
00:28:06
Speaker
And it's like, no, you're really not like, there is a different way of being there is a different way of thinking and by cutting that tether. It's a metaphorical tether. You are not actually in space. You are not actually going to die. And in fact, by cutting that tether, you open yourself up to so many new connections with people and the world and how we can interact together in this much more beautiful, cohesive way.
00:28:38
Speaker
um Yeah. And like, for me, art art became a safe place to test paradigms, I guess. yeah um it became a place where I can be like, okay, I'm not ready to do that myself, but I can do something on the side. Like I can make this like ugly little picture and practice reminding my body that it's safe to do this like weird thing that otherwise seems too out there or whatever. It's like, well, right if I actually practice it, then I can like slowly train my body and teach my body that like this is an okay way to exist in the world.
00:29:17
Speaker
this is a safe way to exist in the world. Right. And art can be a really cool safe place to do that, which I also love that that kind of brings it back to what you were talking about earlier, it's like creativity being a way to create safe space for yourself. I like having that reflected back because I'm like now picturing like somebody else, you know, like that create like seeing some like the imagination of you you know, just like, I just imagine like your hands kind of magically like imagine you being a cartoon and you're like, made ugly art. And it became the clay nation. Yeah, no, you made the clay nation and then the clay nation reflected itself back to you and everything. This is like, ah, yeah. And paradigms are breaking down because of it. No, I'm just kidding. I love that.
00:30:05
Speaker
Oh, yeah, okay. And so with the fear too, i you said something and it clicked a thought, and is the like with the feeling of dying and the fear that that you know the when we face that fear, it caused me to reflect like I've had two serious injuries that when I regained consciousness from the situation, I was surprised to find myself alive. I was like, oh, huh. And the relief that I experienced in those moments very much reflects the sense of relief that I experienced when like I am able to free myself from a train of thought that like causes me to
00:31:00
Speaker
live a life that isn't as fulfilling as it could be. and yeah Like that liberation like it feels like it is permission to give myself life like it is like you get to be fucking weird and you get to soak in it and bask in it and like just because it is so much better than closing a part of yourself. im like then perpetuates life, whereas these like kind of finite moments where I came face to face with, like um for me, what life and death was, like those meanings for of like constructing those meanings for myself, and really ah like getting slammed by a car on a bike, you know what I mean? You'd be like, oh my God, the doctors be like, it's weird. It's weird that you're alive, but I'm like, don't I fucking know it. Don't I?
00:31:47
Speaker
ah Yeah, and so like that but that's just a moment. Like that's just a reminder. And and so like there's this like constant source of like freedom that I feel like I'm experiencing recently where I'm releasing myself from these thoughts and I'm just like, whoa, it's scary. But then like the positive reinforcement of it is just like this delicious, continuous access to life. like where I feel like, oh, this is what my cellular network is blowing up for, because it's like it feels so good to continue connections, to continue growing, developing, moving ourselves out and into, as opposed to staying blocked and cookie cut. yeah yeah is that um Is that kind of the feeling you've gotten from like doing more and more of these like open mic nights?
00:32:37
Speaker
Have you been doing those longer than I know? Like, I've only known you for like this past year or so. Honestly, I feel like I've only known me for this past year. um No, it is that is it is newer. I've been like, I've known at the open mic nights started that this isn't relevant information. But no, it is a newer experience um to be at an open mic night. It is not new for me to be ah behind a microphone expressing myself.
00:33:08
Speaker
um
00:33:10
Speaker
But it is like a different identity and a different way of doing so because the last time that I was behind a microphone was like seven or like eight, this feels like seven years ago where I was doing that consistently. um So does that answer your question?
00:33:28
Speaker
because I can keep going because I'm a rambler.
Open Mic Experiences and Collaborative Creativity
00:33:29
Speaker
But no, yeah, I was just I was mostly like talking about like, or I was mostly inquiring, I guess about okay, you does it? It was an inquiry about like,
00:33:42
Speaker
you mentioning like that feeling of breaking out of that line of thought. And I was curious if like that was part of your process is like challenging yourself to to like do certain actions with your art or with your expression to like break like basically take action to prove to yourself that those paradigms are broken down. Those paradigms can be broken down. Yeah. Yeah. And then to also say like, good job doing that for like, how actually you could go, you could go back to that. You think you could back to that. trade aren No, that's yet to happen. Yeah. um Yes. I do think that those are ways of like, anchoring
00:34:29
Speaker
myself to reality. um And that is incredibly necessary when I don't have anything holding my thoughts in like check, really. like i don't I don't know if that's accurate to say, but it's something I've been kind of toying with, is that in the way that I think I feel as though I am very unattached And so, yeah, the the I think it's important to have senses, like to have attachment, to have roots somewhere. um Where that is, you know, is in my brain somewhere, ambiguously placed. But um externally, like yeah, just feel if this is making sense, externally, the like the open mic nights or the ah collaborative music experiences that I participate in, like all of that kind of feels like a ah
00:35:18
Speaker
a root, like where I want to grow my roots. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. ah Before we start kind of talking about some other stuff, would you like to make some ugly art with me? Yes. Yes. Yay. Cool. Yeah, grab your paper and your pen or whatever you're drawing with.
00:35:42
Speaker
I mean, really, there's no I do like to give a little prompt just to get people started, if that's helpful, if it's not helpful. Yeah, not I mean, maybe not always, but that is helpful for me right now in an enthusiastic way. Awesome. Cool. So my favorite thing to do is just to take a small piece of paper or whatever you have lying around, um randomly grab whatever colors or whatever you're going to do. um I'm going to go with two at once because that sounds fun.
00:36:11
Speaker
ah and then basically without looking at your paper set your pen to the paper and then let your hand kind of just do a quick motion that feels intuitive to you okay some kind of scribble okay there was a pre-existing whoops on the page that is incorporated so excellent yeah okay sick okay that's perfect ban rules And then, yeah, from there, I'm going to like set a timer for us for the next like five minutes um and just kind of keep adding to whatever you have, make it as ugly as you possibly can, ah encouraging your brain to embrace mistakes and whatever there is.
Creativity as Liminal Space
00:36:55
Speaker
It's funny that we were ah on our list of topics um is talking about liminal spaces. Yeah.
00:37:07
Speaker
And like whenever I'm like doodling and talking, I feel like I'm in ah just like this other place. like I don't know. I know liminal spaces are like those transitionary spaces, but like that's what creativity feels like to me. And someone has told me that my art looks very liminal, which makes a lot of sense to me because yeah it it feels like art becomes a transition or a trans transitionary ah space for me to explore different ideas and um apply them in like a way that I might not fully be able to put words to. What sort of ideas?
00:37:56
Speaker
Um, you're asking me to put words to ideas that I just said I should have words for. i recognize Oh, absolutely dare you.
00:38:14
Speaker
First off, before I answer that question, the timer went off so we can share what we made. but Okay. I'm not done yet. Okay, here we go. That's okay. Okay. Mine turned into a, whoop, you're up here. Just like a really scribbly heart thing. I like that. Oh, that's so sweet. Yeah. I liked it. I like it a lot. That's really cute. Yeah, it is. Hearts do that, dude. I love like, at the heart's just consistently. Since I was like five until now, i so I feel the same when I see a little heart.
00:38:53
Speaker
And that one it was just like sweet and yeah, different. I haven't. Yeah. Well, it was fun. Cause like, I, like, as I was going, I was like, I don't fucking know what this is. And then I'm like, okay. And then I just kept scribbling and then you keep scribbling until you find something. Yeah. Then you got a little heart. I found a, I found a heart. Yeah. Cute. Um, mine is like these guys. Oh my gosh. They're so cute and happy. Yeah. So.
00:39:23
Speaker
These are kind of the way I draw like weird little monster dudes. And yeah, I love it. Yeah. But what were you saying before that? Oh, no. Uh, what was I saying? I don't know. I think I was going to try to transition back to liminal spaces. Well, because like that, so creativity can become a type of liminal space for me where like,
00:39:53
Speaker
It becomes a place to explore ideas and break down thoughts, even if like I'm not like explicitly thinking or like expressing on the paper like Because so much of my art is like abstract, that like it's and it's based on a feeling, and so so much of that is like what the texture ends up looking like, ah or you know some of the imagery I use in collage, um or even the materials. I've cut out like words of a Bible to like
00:40:28
Speaker
you know become like this kind of flowy thing on a page and so it's not like it's it's just like it's breaking down ideas and it becomes this like liminal space that um is kind of weird and but gives space to new paradigms to be created um because it's a space of unknown and it's a space of limitless potential. And that can be really scary, but it can also be a great way to engage with yourself in a way that you're not used to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:41:03
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I appreciate that you brought up the, ah you know, incorporating, like a page of, did you say a page of a Bible, like into the collage? Yeah, like that's, I mean, speaking of breaking down paradigms, like, if, just background, which I have the information that you do, you have the information that I do, like, we know that, like, one does not, that does not,
00:41:28
Speaker
that'sre does not yeah you dude
00:41:35
Speaker
yeah like that is I mean straight up if any of my family members listen to this and they like hear that they'll probably do pretty good stuff. Yeah, exactly. right like And it's just like, good. like that's part of the That's part of it. where it's just like this is and this gets This can serve as a secret text and it can also serve as a medium of deconstructing. um And it gets to be both of those things. like that The Bible itself maintains it like maintains what it is as a Bible. and like I think part of breaking down the power that it has is like to yeah like you're saying like to incorporate that's just a really just prime example is like incorporating that which we shouldn't be doing into that which is love you know part of our expression and ourselves and then it kind of yeah reverses that hold that the
00:42:25
Speaker
Yeah, that the the paradigm has. Yeah. ah But yeah, like holding up the scissors to that page in the Bible felt like, like that scary moment of no return of like, oh, this is this thought pattern that I thought was so important. And like, I can't, it's like, nope, just snip it. You're, you are, you are safe. This is your new, like, these are the thoughts that you want to engage with. These are, this is the way of living you want to engage with. Just cut the cord and keep moving forward and see what there is to be discovered.
00:42:55
Speaker
Yeah, right. Right. That conversation toward permission. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's just like the the excitement too, of being able to explore the world with a new perspective is like, what for me makes life keep on like feel like like worth living, you know, because it's like, I don't know. Yeah. It's hard to find excitement, you know, like I'm i'm getting I've like I feel like I've been reflecting on time passing a lot and the things that that bring me joy and you know the the ways that I access Childlike Wonder, because that's like one of my ah guiding practices, is to have access to that Childlike Wonder. And it's like it is difficult to find if, like when I'm in states of like depression or states where I can't
00:43:50
Speaker
change my thought patterns. and And so yeah, so to be able to have this like, fresh perspective or access this fresh perspective and also like, and being able to protect like knowing that then, oh, I've like, I cut this tether and now like, I did something scary and I get to move through the world having that success and like having this new perspective. It's just like, it's just yummy. It's just so yummy. i Very yummy. Yeah. Yeah.
00:44:19
Speaker
Oh, I love it.
Conclusion and Farewell
00:44:21
Speaker
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. This is a really excellent conversation and very fun. Um, yeah. So, uh, where can, thanks for where can people, yeah, of course. Where can people find you, support you, uh, hear your open mics, uh,
00:44:43
Speaker
around ah yeah yeah so um um I love this opportunity to just shout out cool aspects of the community. and yeah I can be sometimes found through Cascadia Music Alliance. I've been playing music with them and they've been inviting me into spaces such as Soulberry Cafe, ah where they do open mic nights every Monday, and or they have a singer-songwriter collaborative. I think it's every third Thursday of the month.
00:45:12
Speaker
And so following either Cascadia Music Alliance or Soulberry Cafe and follow both on Instagram and then the Open Mic Nights where I read my poetry is through Creative Colloquy and that's every third Monday of the month. So thank you for giving me the space to say that.
00:45:32
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. i will I'll have information for all of those in the show notes as well. So definitely um check them out. Go support Jamie um and all the other awesome artists in the Tacoma area. And yeah, thank you everybody so much for listening. Thank you, Jamie, for being here. And keep it ugly, everybody.