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Rebelling Against Self-Help w/ Andrea Reeves
42 Plays3 days ago
Join me and Andrea [on-dray-uh] Reeves (she/her), the neurodivergent mind behind Type C Creative, as we discuss the ways self-help isn't so helpful. How do we get out of that external feedback loop of trying to constantly improve ourselves and instead find a place of radical self-acceptance with our art and ourselves. We discuss finding systems and routines that work for you without attributing a story that you're failing or being a bad person as well as the beauty of embracing intentional inconsistency: accepting that you'll be inconsistent and de-shaming those habits that might be less than habitual.
You can find Andrea at typec-creative.com and sign up for her Substack, Rebellious Systems.
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Transcript
Intro
00:00:39
Lore Alexander
Welcome back to The Ugly Podcast. It's me, your host, Lore Alexander. They, them. And, uh, today I'm wearing my favorite shirt in the world, which is a pink button up shirt with like these weird, like eyeballs and tongues and faces. And I don't, it's very weird and I love it. I found it at Value Village one day.
00:01:02
Lore Alexander
um And all oh as always, i I'm your you're white, non-binary, androgynous, ah curly-haired weirdo with big glasses. um um And I'm in a new location today for recording. i my I just moved in with my partner a couple weeks ago. And so we moved into the house that she bought. And so I've got a bunch of empty shelves behind me and a chair. And it's great.
00:01:29
Lore Alexander
And okay, so before I dive in with my amazing guest, I have an announcement. I'm bringing Come As You Art back. I haven't done it for probably like a year and a half now, but if you've been before, it is a really fun time of just coming together and making some ugly art.
00:01:46
Lore Alexander
And that's going to be the third Thursday of every month, starting in January. So I'm really excited about that. If you are interested, um you can go sign up through scribeandsunshine.com. You'll see it there on under the creativity offerings. Yeah, so I'm really excited to bring that back. So definitely go check that out. And without further ado, my guest is the neurodivergent mind behind type C creative.
00:02:12
Lore Alexander
a background in writing and a business degree from Babson College, she merged her natural curiosity with her love of systems and technology to rage against the productivity machine and help people find more compassionate and rebellious ways of working together, of working, sorry, and being. um Welcome. Would you please introduce yourself with your name, pronouns, and a brief visual description of yourself?
00:02:37
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yes, and I have to say your shirt is amazing. I meant to say that. ah It's beautiful. It makes me really happy. um My name is Andrea.
00:02:44
Lore Alexander
um thank you
00:02:46
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
My pronouns are she, her, hers. I am a ah black mixed gal with afro buns. That is my signature ah look.
00:02:57
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
I do not like brushing my hair. I am currently in my bedroom in Charlotte, North Carolina, sitting on the comfiest sofa, chair, ever, and staring at my cat who is blissfully sleeping.
00:03:13
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And I love her. Her name is Kitty. Her pronouns are she her.
00:03:17
Lore Alexander
Well, that's amazing.
00:03:18
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And yeah, I'm excited to be here.
00:03:20
Lore Alexander
Yay. Oh, so good to have you, Andrea. um Yeah, I'm stoked to have, ah so last, my last episode, I also had somebody on to talk about neurodivergence and I love just like diving into this concept even further.
00:03:32
Lore Alexander
um because there's so many different aspects to it and different things that affect us and our creativity and our brains and how we interact in the world and how we show up in the world and how we find our authentic selves and all of the things all while living in this like capitalistic productivity culture and it's like, no, it's crushing all of our souls. How do we get out of this? So I'm so excited to have you here.
00:03:56
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah, it really is crushing all of us, I loved this question because it felt so big and I caught myself overthinking it.
00:04:00
Lore Alexander
Yeah, it is. I would love to know a little bit more about yourself. I like to ask this question, I frame it differently. I framed it differently over the years. um But right now, my favorite way to ask it is, um if your relationship to creativity was or had a story arc, what would that story arc be?
00:04:25
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And then I was like, it's fine. Just go with whatever the first thing that pops into your head is. And it's my relationship with creativity is very cyclical.
00:04:36
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
I feel like it, when I was younger, it was so free flowing. Like it was like breathing. Like I would write, I would record weird videos in my bedroom and like,
00:04:49
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
pretending to be a news anchor or whatever I thought of.
00:04:52
Lore Alexander
Oh yes, yeah.
00:04:53
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
um And I would like start writing books because I read a lot. And I think over time, as it often does, you know I go into society and I learn about shame.
00:05:06
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And I start to you know put a box around what creativity is and what it looks like and what's acceptable for me to express.
00:05:17
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And I found in the last couple years, I've started to get back in touch with that more expressive, less inhibited type of creativity and am sort of expanding what that looks like for me in a way that feels a little bit more childlike than it has ah in the in the past, just based on going through the world and trying to do the best I can and and fit in.
00:05:54
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:05:55
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
and So yeah, it it's been very cyclical. I feel like I'm coming back to it in a way that is both familiar, but also new because I'm an adult and I have more freedom and more resources to do things that I want to do, you know?
00:06:07
Lore Alexander
Yeah. I love that you said it was like breathing when you were a kid that.
00:06:19
Lore Alexander
that really That word really stuck with me because yeah it's like breathing for all of us when we're kids. We just naturally create and make things and imagine and play.
00:06:31
Lore Alexander
its And then where does it go?
00:06:34
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
I know. so
00:06:37
Lore Alexander
Where? Why? um Yeah, so I love to hear that you're you're coming back around to to that, learning how to breathe again with your creativity.
00:06:51
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah, that's so beautiful. I love that. And and I think too, when you're younger, or at least when I was younger, I wasn't really preoccupied in defining what creativity was or like what is or is not creative.
00:07:04
Lore Alexander
Exactly.
00:07:07
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And now it's like, I love doing my nails. That's creativity. i And there isn't as much, I'm able to restrain it less and just accept the ways in which I create and not question it as much.
00:07:11
Lore Alexander
Mm hmm.
00:07:21
Lore Alexander
Mm hmm. Yeah, I love that. and That's so true about, yeah, when you're a kid, it's you don't think like, I am being creative right now. And then and as an adult, it's like, oh, I have to actually carve out this time because I have completely forgotten how to do it. And then anytime I do think of a creative idea, there's like that immediate like shame messaging that pops up like,
00:07:46
Lore Alexander
I'm sorry, you cannot do this today because you are not a creative person and that we have defined is a creative thing. So I'm sorry, you will not be doing that today.
00:07:57
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah. yeah
00:07:59
Lore Alexander
Yeah. um So I want to, one thing that you touched on when we were talking before we recorded was, you know, self-help culture. um And I think um'm I'm really excited to hear what your experience has been because I also, I think self-help culture has a place, but it has become less than helpful in a lot of ways.
00:08:27
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
That's very generous. I feel like I'm in a much more binary place with it where I'm like, fuck, self-help, it sucks. There is no purpose, but I'm sure there is a purpose for it when done the right way or the but ethical way.
00:08:36
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:08:42
Lore Alexander
yeah
00:08:44
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
um I grew up in a very religious environment and
00:08:49
Lore Alexander
ah same
00:08:51
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Love that for us.
00:08:52
Lore Alexander
Love that for us. Congratulations.
00:08:54
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Thank you.
00:08:54
Lore Alexander
Glad you made it out.
00:08:57
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Which I saw you have an episode about that which I really want to listen to. um but i
00:09:00
Lore Alexander
It usually comes up in a lot of episodes like because because religion like has a lot of ah impact on like the shame aspect of
00:09:10
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Totally.
00:09:11
Lore Alexander
what you're allowed to make or do or how you're supposed to act or behave. And so that ah like religion has a big impact. And I think I've met so many people who end up coming on here and be like, so I was really religious growing up.
00:09:23
Lore Alexander
I'm like, yep, I bet you were. Go on.
00:09:26
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Totally, especially in the West, it just is such a, yeah. And so, and I also have OCD, which came first, I could probably guess. um but So I was always in environments where one, self-help was really pushed of like, you have to constantly improve yourself and like, get closer to this version of good or, you know, better, whatever. And, you know,
00:09:56
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
even through my 20s was doing a lot of self-help just constantly in small groups at work. I worked out a Christian organization for a couple years and it was so taxing.
00:10:14
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And I found that as I left my religion and sort of evolved in what I believe in and stopped putting so much emphasis into external validation in how I do things and how I navigate and, you know, seeking permission or just like learning to trust myself and learn that, you know, what I want and need and desire can be inherently good just internally. um I started to see self-help very differently and I actually can pinpoint
00:10:54
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
I don't know the exact date, but I know the exact book it was that really just, I just turned the switch off and I was like, I can't fuck with this anymore.
00:11:04
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Can I cuss on this?
00:11:06
Lore Alexander
Yeah, it's fine.
00:11:06
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Okay.
00:11:06
Lore Alexander
yeah good yeah you want ah Do you mind sharing what the book was?
00:11:09
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And, sorry mom, I know my mom is going to do this.
00:11:16
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yes, it was something about essentialism.
00:11:18
Lore Alexander
I'm curious.
00:11:20
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
It was like the big book about essentialism and some guy, it's like,
00:11:21
Lore Alexander
okay
00:11:24
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
a white cover with black text and a red underline. I remember it exactly, but I can't remember the title or the person's name. But i yeah, I'm going to tear it apart.
00:11:33
Lore Alexander
but That might be for the best, I don't wanna like.
00:11:37
Lore Alexander
but But also like, I don't know.
00:11:37
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
So probably so I don't even fully remember.
00:11:40
Lore Alexander
Anyway, it's go on.
00:11:45
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
I mean, essentialism, right? Like only only prioritizing things that are essential, basically, and like decluttering your work and life, whatever.
00:11:55
Lore Alexander
sure
00:11:56
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And I was only a few chapters in, and I remember hearing him describe an interaction that was sort of the catalyst of this essentialist ideal, where he was like, I was asked to do a project, and I just said no.
00:12:13
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
like I just told my boss no. And it made me so mad because it was like, oh yeah, of course you did. You're a straight white man. Like you can just do that.
00:12:21
Lore Alexander
ah
00:12:23
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And there was no acknowledgement that that is not the norm.
00:12:23
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:12:28
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Like most people cannot do that.
00:12:28
Lore Alexander
Right.
00:12:31
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
It will risk their livelihood and the simplicity of being like, well, just tell your boss, no, I'm not going to do that.
00:12:32
Lore Alexander
Mm-hmm.
00:12:38
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And it's like, what? That's. Not real, like that does not happen outside of certain, you know, the way that people present themselves.
00:12:43
Lore Alexander
No.
00:12:47
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And so that was sort of, I was like, this is really pissing me off. And now that I'm really thinking about it, I don't think I've ever gotten advice from a book like this that really resonated and landed for me.
00:13:01
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
It just made me feel more like shit because I can't do that or my brain doesn't work that way.
00:13:06
Lore Alexander
Hmm.
00:13:09
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
I can't wake up at five o'clock in the morning. I physically, like biologically, I don't think it's possible for me to do that. Does that mean I'm not going to be successful because I don't start my day at five o'clock in the morning?
00:13:18
Lore Alexander
Right.
00:13:22
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
So that was sort of the catalyst for me to just be like, fuck that. I'm going to do things that work for me and I don't need anyone to tell me what works well for me because I know me more than they do.
00:13:38
Lore Alexander
Yeah, I i think it's interesting, because I think that my experience with self-help, I don't think I really got into those books that like were like, I have this answer, and like this will improve your life.
00:13:53
Lore Alexander
I think I was more i was more like in the Brene Brown realm of self-help, which has its own you know problematic things.
00:13:57
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
a Oh, yeah.
00:14:03
Lore Alexander
Yeah, don't get me wrong. um But like, but a lot of i I would say that realm of like, more focused on like, hey, you're actually not a problem. And like,
00:14:16
Lore Alexander
It's okay that you have these feelings, give yourself some grace and let's like focus on like breaking down and deconstructing the shame that's actually getting in your way of all these things. And like, that's the part that I'm like, yeah, that was very helpful.
00:14:29
Lore Alexander
But then like, but then you get stuck.
00:14:30
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah.
00:14:31
Lore Alexander
You get stuck in this cycle of, I still feel bad. I must still meet need help. I must still be broken.
00:14:37
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah.
00:14:38
Lore Alexander
And it just, it's a never ending cycle.
00:14:39
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And it's, it's never ending. It, it and it was sort of a similar, it was a similar journey for me in like deconstructing and eventually leaving Christianity was I
00:14:41
Lore Alexander
Mm-hmm.
00:14:53
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
In the beginning, I spent so much time thinking about it and like researching it and looking at you know atheist YouTube and like all of these things. like I spent so much time consuming and like seeking external resources and inspiration and validation, which i has its purpose, of course, but I was still in this like external feedback loop.
00:15:08
Lore Alexander
Mm-hmm.
00:15:18
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And when I finally, I think it was my therapist who may have said this to me or they were like, what if you just don't try to solve fit?
00:15:23
Lore Alexander
Mm-hmm.
00:15:28
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And what if you just exist? And I was like, well, then what will I do with all my time if I don't, if I'm not fixing something?
00:15:32
Lore Alexander
ah Right.
00:15:35
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
But it was, so it's a similar approach where, you know, things will come up and it's, there's always room to improve by all means, but to constantly,
00:15:47
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
be in a state of, well, I have to keep reading and I have to keep getting this external advice. It just is exhausting and it was not helpful for me.
00:15:57
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And so it's easier for me to just go throughout life and when things pop up, then I deal with them and I talk through them and I process them internally and externally.
00:16:03
Lore Alexander
Mmhmm.
00:16:07
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
But it's that now I start inward instead of immediately seeking
00:16:14
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:16:15
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
external advice from people who you know could mean well, but also don't know me and don't have the same lived experience that I do and you know just navigate things differently.
00:16:26
Lore Alexander
Yeah. Mmhmm.
00:16:28
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
you know
00:16:30
Lore Alexander
Yeah, I think that's such an important switch from internal or from external to internal. And also from from seeking and researching and getting stuck in that like, um what is that? ah What's that word? Oh, no, there's a word for it. And I forgot it. ah This happens to me every single time.
00:16:52
Lore Alexander
um Anyway, procrastal learning, that's the word I was looking for, um where you're not actually like putting any of these things into practice in your life, you're just continuing to read more and more and consuming.
00:16:57
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Mmm.
00:17:05
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Just consuming.
00:17:06
Lore Alexander
yeah um So switching from that procrastal learning to actually implementing and doing, and like how do you actually want to be in life?
00:17:07
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah.
00:17:17
Lore Alexander
Um, that was such a huge thing for me as like, and honestly, it was when I started making art and starting my business or I was actually taking a front row, like front and center.
00:17:31
Lore Alexander
Uh, wow. Why is my brain just having a really hard time connecting to any words today? This is no, it's
00:17:37
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
I was gonna say it's 4 p.m., but you're three hours before me, so My ADHD, I'm like, I don't know what you're saying either, but I was gonna be following you
00:17:41
Lore Alexander
It is. I'm going to blame it on my lunch. I had like a pretty big lunch that must still be like digesting and sucking all of the words out of my brain. um ah I don't know what I was saying. Something about. OK. Thank God for editing. I don't know what you're saying.
00:18:07
Lore Alexander
I think I was talking about like that the when I started making art and doing my business and being kind of the star role and being active in my life instead of just kind of going with the flow. That's when like ah I was able to actually practice a lot of these things that I had been learning about deconstructing shame and like processing trauma and creativity and making things with my hands and like doing something tangible actually helped me feel what I read about in all of those books.
00:18:40
Lore Alexander
But I didn't get there from just continuing to be stuck in that cycle of, oh, i this maybe this next book will give me the secret sauce. It's like, no, you actually have to go through the shit and go through the feelings to feel anything.
00:18:50
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah.
00:18:56
Lore Alexander
So like those self-help books really aren't getting you anywhere.
00:18:59
Lore Alexander
you know
00:18:59
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah, and it's like the
00:19:02
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
It's the intention behind it is kind of what I took away from what you just said, because I feel the same way about systems.
00:19:05
Lore Alexander
Mm.
00:19:10
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Like systems is my kind of main source of creativity is, and it's funny when I start working with people, most of the people I work with have ADHD, autism, they're a neurodivergent in some capacity.
00:19:25
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And part of the introduction to that work is just affirming that even if this is completely like convoluted to anyone else, like if you have six um emotional support notebooks and we can find a way to make that not overwhelming for you, like that's okay.
00:19:49
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And everything, whether it be tips, recommendations, all through the lens of if this doesn't work for me, it doesn't mean there's something wrong with me. It just means it doesn't work for me and I can
00:19:59
Lore Alexander
Mhm.
00:20:01
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
move on to the next thing and try it and so there is a part of me that's kind of like I wonder if I revisited some self-help books in a now I'm in a different headspace and I have I would have a different intention behind seeking out that information like what how it would land with me now so I'm getting I'm I'm kind of changing my own mind in this
00:20:11
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:20:29
Lore Alexander
I mean that's I think that's I mean one thing that I have really come to believe is just like dissolving binaries in general in my life like not just my gender but also like you know my beliefs on what is good and bad and obviously there are some things that are just like
00:20:38
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Mm.
00:20:47
Lore Alexander
that's bad.
00:20:48
Lore Alexander
But I mean, oh like, things like self help, there's so much that is on a ah broad spectrum of what can be helpful. And usually it's when you are on that binary of like, this has to be super helpful, or this isn't helpful at all.
00:20:48
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah.
00:21:01
Lore Alexander
It's like, no, there's, there might be just nuggets of wisdom that you take and you don't and then, you know, you throw the rest away or whatever. But it's just, there's, there's no like,
00:21:12
Lore Alexander
one single answer for, you know, all self help is bad, or all self help is good and necessary.
00:21:16
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah.
00:21:18
Lore Alexander
It's like, well, not all of it's necessary. Not all of it's good.
00:21:20
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah.
00:21:21
Lore Alexander
um So yeah.
00:21:22
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And not all of it's necessary for me.
00:21:25
Lore Alexander
Yes, exactly.
00:21:25
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
It could be necessary for someone else and that's okay too. Yeah.
00:21:28
Lore Alexander
Yeah, exactly.
00:21:31
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
I love that.
00:21:31
Lore Alexander
Absolutely.
00:21:32
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Wow.
00:21:32
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:21:33
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
I'm like my mind is expanding.
00:21:38
Lore Alexander
Yay, we love it. So along the same path, ah let's talk about radical self-acceptance in this realm. um How does that bring us closer to our creativity? How does that bring us closer to ourselves? What are your thoughts on radical self-acceptance?
00:21:57
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah, well one it's really really fucking hard um Really hard especially now in the world ah it's really hard and it's like it's both an internal and an external battle and
00:22:01
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:22:16
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
I feel like I never really know fully which one I'm battling at the time. They're kind of really intermixed, but I don't know. I think that similar to the cyclical relationship with creativity, the more acceptance that I have for myself, the more acceptance I have for what I produce and knowing that Like you said, like there isn't a good or bad. like i People don't make fun of me, or they don't make fun of me, but they think it's funny that I take singing lessons because I cannot sing well. And there's absolutely no reason why I should be taking singing lessons other than I just want to. And I think it's fun. And like if this were me four years ago, I probably never, because it would be like, well, one, why are you doing it?
00:23:07
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
You don't have to do this. You're not preparing for anything.
00:23:09
Lore Alexander
Mm-hmm.
00:23:09
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Two, you're not really that good at it. So also why are you doing it? If you're not good at it, you can't monetize this. You can't like all of these things.
00:23:17
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:23:19
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And just accepting that there is a part of me that really just wants to sing and have someone take me through the process of warming up and like learning a song.
00:23:29
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And that process doesn't have to exist for anything other than just I like doing it and it brings me pleasure. And so I think part of the radical self-acceptance is like, it's part of that first step to just like see, like feeling what else can be possible for you.
00:23:38
Lore Alexander
he
00:23:53
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And outside of the box of this is what creativity has to look like. This is what work has to look like. This is what, you know, all of these should it kind of busts it all open and like allows you to just have fun and play and just settle into whatever it is you're doing without having to like overthink everything.
00:24:04
Lore Alexander
Mm hmm.
00:24:18
Lore Alexander
Mm hmm. Exactly. Yeah, I mean, well said.
00:24:25
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Thank you. Should I break out into song?
00:24:29
Lore Alexander
Yes, please. Okay, I also really love that you're taking singing lessons because I've been thinking about taking singing lessons. Like, just just this past like maybe six, three to six months or so, it's just been like kind of in my noggin of like, I think I would like to learn how to like control my diaphragm and like,
00:24:49
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah, I have to shout out, I have to shout out my singing coach, Sharers, who was just on Broadway.
00:24:50
Lore Alexander
sing better, and like maybe expand my range, you know?
00:25:00
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
She was on the ah the revamp of Merrily We Go Along, incredible.
00:25:00
Lore Alexander
Ooh!
00:25:06
Lore Alexander
Oh wow.
00:25:06
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And she does Zoom singing lessons and I leave the i leave the lesson.
00:25:09
Lore Alexander
Oh cool.
00:25:12
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
It's almost dangerous because I'm like, I think I could actually do, like she makes me feel so good about myself and my voice where I'm like, am I actually a good singer? Should I like go on the road? She's incredible.
00:25:23
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
I love. Yeah. It just is such an interesting, and it can be used for so many things. Like we use our voices as instruments and just the, yeah, going through, I did some, uh, some exercises before I hopped on this podcast.
00:25:38
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
So totally.
00:25:39
Lore Alexander
Yeah, well, as you were saying, like it can be used for all these different things. It's like, oh yeah, I could use it for like preparing to do my podcast instead of just kind of like screaming into my house.
00:25:48
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah.
00:25:49
Lore Alexander
Like that's how I prepare for this pretty much. I just yell.
00:25:54
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Love that. That works too.
00:25:54
Lore Alexander
Make sure that make sure that nothing's like stuck in my throat and This is why it's called the ugly podcast I literally don't know like what ah but I mean now I know what I'm doing I've been doing it for like almost three years now But I just make it up as I go along don't do anything by the book Who among us I know and if they aren't they're lying
00:26:09
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Who doesn't? I mean, really? who Who isn't making things up while they go? Yeah.
00:26:20
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Totally. Or they're just not self-aware enough to know that that's what they're doing.
00:26:25
Lore Alexander
Or they're just following a manual. Oh, actually, uh, that just, that reminded me, um, something about our conversation has kind of sparked my thoughts on like when we want to be creative or try a new skill or something.
00:26:27
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
e
00:26:40
Lore Alexander
And like our immediate response is I have to take lessons to do this.
00:26:45
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
a
00:26:47
Lore Alexander
Which is funny because we're just talking about how I was like, yeah, I want to take lessons.
00:26:49
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah.
00:26:52
Lore Alexander
Um, but on top of that, like I do like sing by myself and I've been like going out to karaoke with friends more and more. So like I do like sing just for fun. But, um, but I think at least like before, before I kind of started on this creativity journey, like I would get stuck kind of a similar in that like self-help mindset of like, well,
00:27:11
Lore Alexander
I would like to draw, but i like I need to take a drawing class or I need to learn how to do it first instead of just like, well, maybe just explore what's there and what do you want to do? do like What are you interested in exploring here? um But that can also be really difficult for, at least for my neurodivergent brain, which is like, no, I i need to know how to do it.
00:27:34
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah.
00:27:35
Lore Alexander
like
00:27:35
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Oh yeah. It's so funny because for our ugly art making, I have my sketchbook, which I bought at the beginning of last year because I was like, I'm going to learn to draw this year.
00:27:46
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
I'm really into drawing and I'm going to like go to classes and I'm going to look up YouTube videos and do all these things. And obviously I got through maybe a week and I was just like, ah, this is boring.
00:27:58
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
I don't want to do this anymore and I'm not good at it.
00:28:00
Lore Alexander
ah huh
00:28:01
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Um, and you know, it's, It's such a dance because, and one of the things I actually just did, I went to a session today that was all about reflection, which I do not ever give myself the space to do.
00:28:17
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
So I have to do it with other people and actually like put the time on my calendar.
00:28:19
Lore Alexander
Mm-hmm.
00:28:23
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And one of the big takeaways from this year that I want to bring into 2025 is that I I have everything that I need inside of me and everything else is an add-on and to be more mindful and thoughtful about what it is I'm adding on because at the end of the day, like I'm not a brain surgeon.
00:28:48
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
like yeah and like That maybe don't wing that. That feels really important to go to school for, but there are very few things that I do that
00:28:54
Lore Alexander
Absolutely.
00:28:59
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
I actually need to like be trained for, especially when it comes to fun and creativity and just creating something. And so if there's something where it's like, well, I really am intrigued by the um the technique and like all like that is valid and that's like a valid ah thing to want.
00:29:23
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
But if it's just, I just want to start doing it. It's like, just do it and see what happens. And also maybe in two weeks you don't want to do it anymore and then you don't waste money trying to learn it a certain way.
00:29:32
Lore Alexander
Right?
00:29:34
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
So yeah, it's a it's ah balance that I feel like I am constantly teetering back and forth between.
00:29:34
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:29:41
Lore Alexander
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love the way you said about like My god my brain my brain I okay this happens like every time when I record this podcast it happens every time but today it's Particularly bad and I am kind of getting
00:29:58
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Your brain knew it was safe with me because I, my brain works the same way and everyone I work with, it's very, i like I'm like, I'm following you, whatever you wanna do, I'm following.
00:30:08
Lore Alexander
whatever you want to go Oh man. Well, ah we're not gonna go back there.
00:30:15
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Okay.
00:30:16
Lore Alexander
We're not going back. um Would you like to continue this conversation whilst making some ugly art of our own?
00:30:24
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
I would love that.
00:30:26
Lore Alexander
Yay.
00:30:29
Lore Alexander
So before we we dive in, first off, would you like a prompt or would you like to just go?
00:30:38
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
I'm feeling a prompt. I would love a prompt. And if I don't like it, then I'm going to just go.
00:30:41
Lore Alexander
Okay. Great. Perfect. Um, I was thinking, uh, because of this conversation about like radical self-acceptance, just using only shapes and colors, textures, whatever you want, um, draw what radical self-acceptance feels like in your body.
00:31:01
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Hmm. I love that. Okay.
00:31:03
Lore Alexander
with the understanding that it doesn't have to actually look like anything and can be ugly as hell if you would like.
00:31:10
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Oh, it definitely will be, thank you. Because I did not ah follow through on my drawing lessons.
00:31:17
Lore Alexander
yeah You didn't take those classes.
00:31:18
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
so
00:31:22
Lore Alexander
Amazing. um Yeah, i'll set I'll set a little timer for us. um And we'll just get going. um um And then, yeah, while we're drawing, I would love to talk about, ask you, like how do you personally like to rebel from productivity culture?
00:31:43
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah, other than my disdain for self help, which is softening as we have been speaking, um I feel like it kind of is all very related where I just have been consuming a lot less. Like there are very specific people that I follow who I will, you know, take either advice or consider, um but I am very selective with who it is.
00:32:17
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Most of them are neurodivergent as well, or have a similar approach to systems where it's like, ah it's not about producing, it's about how does what you're producing feel when you do it sort of thing.
00:32:31
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
um So I feel like just the nature of being like not
00:32:31
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:32:39
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
everything that is ah pushed as being productive is going to work for me and that's okay I think is like the biggest form of radical ah rage against the productivity machine because yeah it just from such a young age it's like you have to be organized you have to be able to wake up early you need to be able to ah pay attention and like actively listen and I'm like Well, all of these things do not come naturally, but actually my body, it it it feels like those are the worst things um about me is I can't do any of those things. And so instead of walking around being like, well, this doesn't, like this informs the kind of person that I am. It's like, well, what if none of that actually matters? And that is just a part of this system that we have been conditioned to, you know,
00:33:36
Lore Alexander
Mm-hmm.
00:33:37
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
So yeah, hope it's hard to draw and talk at the same time.
00:33:40
Lore Alexander
Hard to draw and talk, yeah, I know.
00:33:42
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah.
00:33:47
Lore Alexander
Yeah, I am finding that um I've only been doing this, like, actually drawing with people on ah while we talk for, like, maybe the last four or five episodes.
00:33:58
Lore Alexander
um And I really like it, but it is really challenging to talk and ah think of like follow up questions and listen and while doing it.
00:34:06
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Totally. It's easier to listen while I'm doing it, so I might, while while you're talking, I'm gonna color and then I'm gonna.
00:34:11
Lore Alexander
Yeah,
00:34:14
Lore Alexander
yeah yeah, no, perfect. um Well, now I have to talk. Okay. um Yes, i I love that a lot. And I think that that's something that I ah continue to have to um detach you know how I go about my my business um from the embedded ways that I used to think about productivity, um especially because ah like I don't force myself to work anymore.
00:34:52
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
yes Yeah.
00:34:52
Lore Alexander
um which is really hard. It's hard to not force myself to work. I mean, it's but it's, you know, it's like choosing which hard you want. um i I no longer want the hard where I am forcing myself to work and ah feeling miserable in my body and not actually getting much done because I'm like, it's all bad and I feel bad while doing it.
00:35:20
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah.
00:35:20
Lore Alexander
um Instead, I would rather kind of wrestle with this story that I have now of, okay, I'm feeling really bad and I'm not really getting much done, but I'm sitting at my desk. What if I could just not be at my desk right now? What if I can just go for a walk or take a nap? And none of that has anything to do with me being a good or bad person.
00:35:41
Lore Alexander
And it's it's so much better. It's
00:35:46
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah. I mean, talk about binaries, right? Like it is so funny because I am naturally more of a night person. Well, okay. i'm who I'm more of a,
00:36:00
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
I like 11 to two is great. And in terms of administrative stuff and then like eight to 10 is great PM. And I used to hold these sort of rules that, okay, well I'm not a morning person. So that means I'm a lazy piece of shit. And I like working at night, which means I'm a workaholic and ah like just,
00:36:28
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
kind of assigning these things to me based on what, whether it's like movies or just self-help, anything.
00:36:31
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:36:36
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And I realized, I was like, listen, I like sitting in front of my TV at 8pm and watching the latest, whatever crap Netflix has put out, um reality TV wise, and just like working on administrative stuff.
00:36:47
Lore Alexander
you Right.
00:36:51
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And that's okay because maybe I took a nap at 3pm. I mean, it would be okay even if I didn't take a nap at 3pm, but just kind of, Reminding myself that especially because I I do my own thing. I own my own business there is no right or wrong way to do anything and Just like allowing myself to accept that and feel that in my body and it is really hard But it does I think over time get a little bit easier. There are moments where it's a lot easier um Which is really encouraging. I guess that's like kind of what life is about I think
00:37:29
Lore Alexander
Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Um, on that lovely note, ah that that's our time. So
00:37:37
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
That went by so fast.
00:37:38
Lore Alexander
I know, five minutes is not a long time, which is my my favorite thing of like, if I haven't been creative for a while and I'm like, I just like, I don't, I don't want to sit down and like make art for like an hour.
00:37:41
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
It's really not.
00:37:50
Lore Alexander
I'm just like, just five minutes, just scribble for five minutes and see if you enjoy it. And then I usually end up going for longer. So it goes by so fast.
00:37:59
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Love that.
00:38:01
Lore Alexander
Uh, how, what'd you make?
00:38:04
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Um, I made a thing, just a blob with little blobs in side, little blobs of different colors.
00:38:07
Lore Alexander
Ooh, a thing.
00:38:16
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And it means really nothing. And that is totally fine.
00:38:22
Lore Alexander
Yeah, I love it. That's perfect.
00:38:25
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
What did you make?
00:38:26
Lore Alexander
um I made this really scribbly, colorful
00:38:29
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Ooh.
00:38:33
Lore Alexander
tornado thing ah being surrounded by other colors.
00:38:40
Lore Alexander
Yeah, I was thinking like you know that self-acceptance of kind of like hugging all of your mess.
00:38:46
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Hmm.
00:38:47
Lore Alexander
But then I didn't like that ah the circles around the mess were like containing it and like keeping it small. So I was like, we're going to release the the mess.
00:38:58
Lore Alexander
And the mess is able to seep out. ah
00:39:01
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
I love that. It reminds me of your shirt.
00:39:02
Lore Alexander
and exactly
00:39:03
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
It's like the colors. It's so I love it. It's so it makes me happy.
00:39:08
Lore Alexander
yeah um And I do like to share these. If you would like to take a picture of of yours and send it to me, I will have it on social media so people can check it out um if you want to see what we made on this episode.
00:39:13
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah.
00:39:19
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
So fun.
00:39:23
Lore Alexander
Yeah. Any any ah last thoughts on you know productivity, culture, things that you um would love for people to know or things that you've noticed people struggling with, particularly right now?
00:39:36
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah, one thing that I feel like I always talk about and always hits is this idea of consistency and how, I mean, I think even if you don't identify as neurodivergent, like just the linear way of being is really hard.
00:39:57
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Like, it's just really hard.
00:39:58
Lore Alexander
Mmhmm.
00:40:00
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Life is so unpredictable. And ah I mean, our bodies are unpredictable. The people around us are unpredictable. And so I like to talk about ah intentional inconsistency.
00:40:12
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
It's sort of like this idea that um you know, when I kind of accept that I'm going to be inconsistent, it's not surprising. And there's a lot less shame around it. So for example, I have ah a journal, a paper planner journal, bullet journal. And there are times when I'm the hip, it is always,
00:40:42
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
near me. It has like I'm filling it with stuff.
00:40:42
Lore Alexander
Mm hmm.
00:40:45
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
I'm doing all these fun layouts and highlights and like it's really like scratching an itch for me. And then there are times like now where it has been in my drawer for three months and I have not looked at it, thought about it and that's okay.
00:40:59
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And knowing that there are certain things that are going to be a part of my daily flow, but that it is so unrealistic to have so many things be a part of your daily flow and your daily rhythm and so just you know accepting the fact that consistency is relative it like it doesn't need to be my consistency is that i am inconsistent and i'm probably always going to be because that is the way that my brain works and finding ways to accept that and also like using it as a way of
00:41:12
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:41:39
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
like novelty for me, my ADHD brain, I crave novelty. I want new stuff all the time. I want the shiny new object.
00:41:44
Lore Alexander
yeah
00:41:46
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And when I pull out my notebook after ignoring it for three months, it feels brand new and this is really exciting and it's going to help me in this moment.
00:41:51
Lore Alexander
yeah
00:41:54
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And then it's going to go back to not helping me and that's okay. And I'll find something else. So I think just yeah, i just intentionally inconsistent and that it's okay.
00:42:05
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
If you change your mind or switch things out, like Life is short, who cares?
00:42:10
Lore Alexander
Yeah. Yeah! Yes, I love that. and Intentionally consistent, your brain is consistently inconsistent.
00:42:16
Lore Alexander
ah Yeah, i I really relate to that. Well, it's that's a really hard thing too, especially if you are trying to use like social media to get your art seen or to go or get your business in front of people or whatever.
00:42:16
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah.
00:42:29
Lore Alexander
And like the algorithms like you have to post at the same time and the same day every week or whatever.
00:42:34
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah.
00:42:34
Lore Alexander
And it's just like, ah I'm not gonna I'm just not gonna like I can have the best of intentions, but you know what?
00:42:38
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah.
00:42:45
Lore Alexander
It's not gonna happen um
00:42:46
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah. And I think checking in with yourself and what you're doing, again, the reflection session I was at today, we, uh, one of the questions was like, how did you like market your business this year and like what ways felt good to market?
00:43:06
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And then the next question was like, where did your clients come from? And for me, it's all relationship based and collaborations, conversations like this, like that's what I enjoy.
00:43:10
Lore Alexander
Mmhmm.
00:43:14
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:43:17
Lore Alexander
Mmhmm.
00:43:18
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And it's the biggest like way for me to get my work out there and for people to find me and work with me. And so I don't have to post on Instagram every day and it really won't make that big of a difference.
00:43:27
Lore Alexander
Mmhmm.
00:43:34
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
The only, time that I start feeling a little bit like it might is when I look at other people and what they're doing and what they're telling me I have to do and should do.
00:43:43
Lore Alexander
Right.
00:43:45
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
And it's like, but what actually is working for you and like, what do you enjoy? What feels good to you and do more of that and see if that is going to pay off.
00:43:57
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Cause it's also, I'm more likely to be consistent when I enjoy doing something.
00:44:02
Lore Alexander
Exactly.
00:44:02
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
I'm, if I hate posting on social media,
00:44:03
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:44:06
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
being consistent is gonna be impossible.
00:44:09
Lore Alexander
Yeah, exactly. That's why it's just, i I love talking to like people like you who are working with neurodivergent brains because like the more we can work with our brains instead of against them, like the more successful you will be, even if that is going against the flow or the groove of what other people are doing and what other people are finding successful. like You can find something, like that is not there is not one, like even if they, you know,
00:44:39
Lore Alexander
do get success in a faster streamlined way, maybe, but like that doesn't mean that that happens every time for everyone. And that doesn't mean that you can't find a different way that works with your brain to get where you want to go.
00:44:55
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Yeah, and if you're constantly miserable and like dysregulated, how how fun is the success anyway?
00:44:56
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:44:59
Lore Alexander
Yeah.
00:45:02
Lore Alexander
No, we don't want that success.
00:45:03
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
It's not even, it doesn't feel worth it. Yeah, totally.
00:45:06
Lore Alexander
No. Yeah, no.
00:45:10
Lore Alexander
um Wonderful note to end on. Thank you so much, Andrea. Where can people find you? How can they support you? Work with you? All that stuff. And ah any links that you mentioned, I will have them spelled out in the show notes. So no need to like spell things out or anything.
00:45:26
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Beautiful, I hate spelling. um I show up most consistently on Substack. I read a newsletter called Rebellious Systems. If you are someone who craves ah maybe more organization or structure, but you're not quite sure how to get that with your brain, then I do a lot of ah tutorials tips on tech, but also again, consistently talking about boundaries and rhythms. And it's called rebellious systems for a reason. So finding ways that ways of working that really work for you. So that's the best place to find me everywhere else I'm inconsistent, but consistently so.
00:46:12
Lore Alexander
Perfect.
00:46:15
Andrea [on-dray-uh]
Thank you so much. This was so fun.
00:46:16
Lore Alexander
Yay, I'm glad. I'm so glad that we got connected and thank you everybody for listening. um Go forth and be inconsistent and make ugly things and we'll see you next time.