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Perfectionism as a Superpower w/ Erika Steeves
21 Plays1 year ago
In this episode, I’m rejoined by my fellow editor and twin perfectionist, Erika Steeves! We’re back to talk about perfectionism but through the lens of Katherine Morgan Schafler’s book, The Perfectionist’s Guide to Losing Control, the book that asks the question: What if your perfectionism is actually a superpower?
We were both deeply impacted by this book as it aligns so well with the path we’d already begun with our perfectionism and then adding another layer of shame-shedding by transforming what had been perceived as a weakness into a superpower. How cool is that? Be sure to check out our first episode on perfectionism, Tolerating Imperfection. And follow Erika on Instagram @erika.steeves.edits.
This episode launches me into a hiatus with the podcast so I can rest and focus on my own healing for the time being. The Ugly Podcast will return in either the fall or the winter depending on how said healing goes. 🤷🏻 In the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram @scribeandsunshine. Keep making ugly things and lean into that perfectionism in new ways. I can’t wait to see what we all do next!
References:
The Perfectionist’s Guide to Losing Control: A Path to Peace and Power by Katherine Morgan Schafler
Get Your Perfectionist Profile
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Transcript
Introduction to The Ugly Podcast
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome to the Ugly Podcast. I'm your host, Lauren Alexander, she, they, and this is the place where creatives are encouraged to make messy, ugly art and let go of perfectionism.
00:00:14
Speaker
I started this podcast with my creative partner, Emerson, and we've since grown into our businesses. And this podcast is now evolving into a space where I interview other creatives to discuss our creative processes and how we navigate the mental mind field of creativity. This podcast serves as a reminder that you and your art get to be whatever the hell you want to be, ugly and all.
00:00:41
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Ugly Podcast. I am back today with a guest that has already been on before. You know her, you love her. It's Erika Steves. Well, I'm excited to be here.
00:00:58
Speaker
If you didn't hear our last episode, I highly recommend checking it out. You can listen before or after this. I don't think that they will be in succession anyway. We'll probably reference it, but it is the tolerating imperfection episode that came out like three or four episodes ago. I can't remember. You'll find it. You guys are smart people.
00:01:25
Speaker
And today we're going to look at perfectionism again, because that's what we do as we analyze all of the perfectionism in our lives.
Perfectionism as a Superpower?
00:01:35
Speaker
But we're going to look at it through this lens of this book that has absolutely rocked both of our worlds, which is The Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control, A Path to Peace and Power by Catherine Morgan Schaffler.
00:01:49
Speaker
And yeah, so as soon as I read this book, I immediately messaged Erica and was like, you have to read this. It's so good.
00:01:59
Speaker
Yeah and then I immediately put her on hold and it took so many months to get to me and I was you know upset so I bought it and read it yes so good. Yeah so this book it kind of approaches perfectionism from a very different lens which usually we see when people talk about perfectionism it's always something to be recovered from or
00:02:23
Speaker
gotten rid of or destroyed in some way or overcome. But this book takes a very different approach and that is that like your perfectionism is actually a superpower.
00:02:36
Speaker
that can drive you towards a more fulfilling life if you know how to listen and you know how to use it to your benefit instead of what they call a maladaptive approach to perfectionism, taking an adaptive approach. And we'll talk about kind of the difference between those two in a bit. But yeah, let's just do kind of like first impressions, especially about this concept of like,
00:03:02
Speaker
You don't actually have to get rid of this integral piece of your personality. This thing that has always been a part of you. You don't actually have to get rid of it. What a concept.
00:03:12
Speaker
Yeah. I think that was what initially made me also fall in love
Intrinsic Self-Worth Over Achievements?
00:03:18
Speaker
with this book was just the permission to be yourself and to be a perfectionist and have that be part of your personality and not something that is dragging you down or that has to be fixed. Just someone literally saying, hey, did you know that you have a superpower that you can tap into?
00:03:37
Speaker
You don't even have to try because it is who you are. It's just the most empowering
00:03:44
Speaker
It's the most empowering thing anyone could ever say to you. And that was like in chapter one, boom, you're free to be yourself. What more can you want? You don't have to fix anything. You're perfect the way you are in the sense of nothing more or less can be added. Well, I didn't say that properly, but you are perfect in the sense of
00:04:10
Speaker
Yeah, you don't need to add or take away your whole yes, just by existing you deserve you have Self-worth and
Societal Expectations and Perfectionism
00:04:18
Speaker
you are deserving of joy and happiness like you don't actually have to earn Your happiness that I think that's the key for me as like someone who? Is a high achiever and wants to perform well and do everything perfectly quote-unquote. It's like when someone says hey Even before you do all of that you're still worthy like actually you're still working right now. You're worthy
00:04:40
Speaker
It's like, what? That is the most radical thing. And yeah, that that's how this book starts. Yeah, it is radical that concept, especially like, for us perfectionists, so many of us have grown up
00:04:57
Speaker
with this lens of like, I have to do X in order to be worthy, in order to be viewed as successful, in order to please my parents, please my teachers, please my peers. I have to like achieve this. And if anything goes wrong, then it's all gonna come crumbling down around me. And so that integral knowledge of just like, no, you are worthy as you are. You don't have to prove yourself to people.
00:05:24
Speaker
And hey, that actually, that drive to be perfect, that can actually be beneficial to you too. It's not something you have to destroy about yourself. Cause I feel like as soon as we start to recognize like, Oh, my perfectionism is actually getting in the way of things. Then we start to think like, Oh my gosh, I'm a terrible person. I'm like holding myself back. This is my problem. This is my shame.
00:05:46
Speaker
But like why can't I just chill out like other people why can't my brain just turn off and like let me be why am I so this why am I so that like as if you're so different and that difference is what you need to eradicate from yourself it's like no no actually let's take another look.
00:06:04
Speaker
the good side of this thing that no one ever talks about because we have a very lopsided view of what perfectionism is. Like you said, it's a bad thing. It's something that we need to take care of to not destroy our very existence. And it's so interesting to talk about the good side of it.
00:06:27
Speaker
Yeah,
Adaptive vs Maladaptive Perfectionism
00:06:28
Speaker
it is. And this is something that I touched on in my original perfectionism workshop of just like, it's not helpful to shame yourself out of a certain way of thinking because then you're just going to feel shame and that thing that you've been shaming yourself feeling, it doesn't go away. And so like, one of the things I brought up was like, think about how your perfectionism actually helps you.
00:06:51
Speaker
And at the time, I didn't have this more expansive way of thinking that this book has introduced for me. But I still knew at the time, it's not helpful to just say, this is all terrible. I need to get rid of my perfectionism. No, there's actually helpful things about it. And if you can acknowledge those things, then you can start to hone in your attention to that and let go of the pieces that aren't serving you and bringing in
00:07:20
Speaker
I think one of the things she talks about in this book is like, um, I really want to find the quote, but I'm not going to cause it's going to take too long. Um, it was about, um, wow, I just lost my whole train of thought. The brain fog is back. Um, Nope, it's gone. It might come back around as we talk, come back, come back. Um, something I'm remembering about your workshop though,
00:07:47
Speaker
is I believe you talked about managing perfectionism as opposed to denying it or overcoming it or you know all these other words that emphasize you know oh it's like baggage you need to get over it so but managing it is like and that really helped me rethink my my relationship to my own perfectionism is like if I'm managing something it means that I'm accepting that it's a part of me and if and I'm managing when
00:08:15
Speaker
when it's becoming a problem. And I'm recognizing, and I might have mentioned this in the other podcast, but for me, I'm recognizing when I'm doing another reread of the novel I'm editing just because maybe I missed some stuff and I've already read it too many times, that rechecking and rechecking and rechecking when it becomes a loop.
00:08:38
Speaker
that's when it kicks in. And so the managing is like, oh, I've recognized that. What is it about that? When does my perfectionism kick in? Is it at the beginning of a project, at the end, in the middle? That whole framework that you introduced in the workshop was super helpful to me too. And I think we'll touch on it when we talk about the five types of perfectionism that she talks about in the book, because perfectionism is so much more nuanced than just the
00:09:07
Speaker
the cultural stereotype we have in our head of it. Yeah, exactly. And as you were talking, I remembered kind of basically the quote that I was trying to talk about. And it was that like, maladaptive perfectionism comes when you are letting your perfectionism just run your life. You're not paying attention to it.
00:09:24
Speaker
but adaptive perfectionism comes when you are acknowledging what's happening and you're present to the effect that it's having in your life. And you're like, oh, okay, I can see what's going on. So like, I can tell that I'm rereading this when I don't actually need to be, and now I can evaluate, like, is this actually being helpful for me?
00:09:42
Speaker
Not so much like, okay, let's just, let's not, let's keep going. Let's go to the next thing. And in that way, like letting your observed perfectionism be used in a way that's beneficial to you and instead of a way that runs your life. Yes, exactly. And I think that one of the key frameworks in this book that we should probably explain a tiny bit more is this concept of
00:10:08
Speaker
adaptive versus maladaptive perfectionism and the fact that there is a spectrum of types of perfectionism and the two mindsets that you can go in and
Gender and Perception of Perfectionism
00:10:21
Speaker
out of. So when perfectionism is working for you in a good way, she called it adaptive. It is bringing you in a good direction and your self-worth is not tethered to an external outcome or performance.
00:10:38
Speaker
you enter a maladaptive mindset when you start tethering your self-worth externally and the milestones of life and the things you need to have in place before you can allow yourself happiness or joy. Like, oh, once I'm finished with this, or once I graduate, or once the kids are out of the house, all these kinds of things we say to ourselves, like, once this is taken care of, I'll be able to
00:11:07
Speaker
breathe and do something.
00:11:10
Speaker
that mindset becomes maladaptive when it keeps you from really expressing your full and true self. So I really felt so empowered thinking about that. And also that it's not, this is my initial instinct, it's like, ooh, how can I be adaptive 100% of the time? How can I be perfectly adaptive? Honestly, that's the first thing I thought.
00:11:38
Speaker
Really what it's about is to realize that every perfectionist is at times adaptive and maladaptive. And in the blink of an eye, you can shift into any one state. And it is not a problem. It is simply how it is. And once you can identify how to bring your mindset into the adaptive form of perfectionism,
00:12:03
Speaker
then you can have strategies for that when you know, oh, I'm entering into a maladaptive space for myself and it's totally individualized. It'll look different for each person. That's how you can navigate and manage and then eventually celebrate your perfectionism.
00:12:20
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I think a really good flag for yourself to be able to notice, am I in a maladaptive state? This is just another way of thinking about it. Maladaptive is the unhealthy manifestation of perfectionism, and adaptive is the healthy manifestation. And so noticing, at least for me, I notice, am I suffering right now?
00:12:48
Speaker
Am I putting myself through something or forcing myself to do something or holding myself to a certain standard to the point where I'm suffering and feeling bad about myself? If that's the case, that's probably a maladaptive. Let's think about that and think about how we can start to change this or bring some more presence and knowledge to the situation and maybe
00:13:14
Speaker
start to shift some things. But it is like just a good flag of like, am I suffering right now? Am I beating myself up? Am I hating on myself? If yes, that's probably maladaptive. And that's OK. It's not that you're doing anything wrong necessarily. It's just like, that's just kind of how it manifests sometimes. And it's just time to kind of bring some presence to it and start to shift. Yeah. She talks a lot about how perfectionists are so good at self-punishment and
00:13:44
Speaker
That whole section rang so true for me.
00:13:47
Speaker
like the negative self-talk, just how vicious we can be to ourselves when we are in that maladaptive headspace of blaming ourselves. And yeah, the suffering you're talking about, that is a great flag. For me, the way I can tell straight up that I'm going into a spiral of some kind is all or nothing thinking. And what she calls in the book dichotomous thinking, very fancy.
00:14:17
Speaker
but it's so true, it's like the slippery slope of...
00:14:21
Speaker
Oh, you know, I made this mistake. I always make mistakes. I'm a horrible person. I should just quit. Like it's such a quick, it's so quick. Like some one thing happened. Let me apply that to my entire personality. Now let me extrapolate that out and catastrophize it into the future and like completely self-destruct from there. Whereas, so the all or nothing thing is my red flag. So what I do now is I notice it
00:14:49
Speaker
And not that I laugh at it, but I kind of distance myself and I hear it. Like I hear the track in my head and I notice it and I'm present with it and I sort of chuckle. I'm like, okay. And if I'm able to, then I like, I kind of just, I don't question it, but I go, that's what I'm feeling right now. Like that's just the facts, but I'm not applying it to my
00:15:18
Speaker
I'm not applying it to myself. My self-worth cannot be touched by the negative self-talk. And it's taken me a long time to have that barrier in place where it's like nothing can touch that. I am worthy and good.
00:15:37
Speaker
no matter what my performance, no matter what mistake I may make, it's okay to fail, but not to then be like, I am there for a failure at all levels, undeserving of love and respect. All those really negative things we can say, that's the maladaptive.
00:15:54
Speaker
mindset. And for me to shift out of the all or nothing, I don't even have a prescription for it other than beginning to notice it, however it manifests in your particular situation, but just noticing it and what she talks about like bringing self-compassion and kindness to yourself.
00:16:14
Speaker
And as perfectionists, I think that is extremely difficult because we just don't want to hear it. We just want to be good. Let's keep moving. Come on, like get over it. But the self-compassion is huge. It is huge, huge, huge. And I don't really know what to say how to get there other than practicing it and in small, tiny little ways. Yeah.
00:16:39
Speaker
And also like, and bringing it's kind of like an inception process of healing because like not only do you have to feel like you're worthy of making mistakes and being human and just being okay with like, you know, things not being perfect.
00:16:56
Speaker
You have to be okay with that, but then you also have to be okay with you not being okay with that sometimes, and still bring in that compassion. It's almost like you already have to be healed in order to heal, but it's okay. There's always that gap. You're okay, and it's whatever you're feeling, let's feel it.
00:17:18
Speaker
Right. Because like a perfectionist mindset too is like, I know the answer, so I want it to be this way. What does she say in the book? It's like perfectionists see what, like, it's like a difference between the ideal that they have, like the ideal picture they have in their head and then the reality.
00:17:36
Speaker
And that gap is very frustrating to us. And so that also applies in our own healing when we're like, I should be over this by now. I know what perfectism is. I know how it shows up. I should be over this. I should be able to move past this and not feel bad about it.
00:17:53
Speaker
whatever. But like, that's also the perfectionism talking of like, you have to be this certain way. And it's, it's this, yeah, it is this vicious cycle that you can get caught up in. And so like, yeah, bringing that compassion even to the, like to the healing process as well.
00:18:10
Speaker
So like you said, not just like when you notice yourself in that maladaptive state, just kind of noticing and being like, that's okay. That's where I'm at right now. Like, I don't need to be over here fully at ease and fully acknowledging my self worth and like,
00:18:29
Speaker
you know, perfect for all intents and purposes. Like it's okay that I'm not there yet. It's okay that I'm still struggling with these feelings. And I think that's, yeah, that's the continuous cycle that we find ourselves in of just like self-compassion, acknowledging that we are whole and worthy just as we are, whatever state that's in. Yeah. There was one line in there when she's talking about growth.
00:18:57
Speaker
includes regression and I was like, oh, no way. Like, of course, yes, we know this, like the spiral, the concept of the spiral, but like it's very true. Like to grow sometimes means taking, you know, three steps forward, two steps back, or even three steps forward, five steps back. You are literally still growing and still evolving as a human, but
00:19:23
Speaker
The adaptive perfectionism piece in that is to acknowledge and know that, yes, I will never achieve the ideal and that's okay. I am constantly moving towards it and the journey, the process of that is where I create meaning in my life. And the perfectionism is like that ambition to
00:19:44
Speaker
move forward and do great things or whatever it is the ambition involves. That's the harnessing, the good parts of it. And she talks about presence, that when you're in an adaptive mindset,
00:20:03
Speaker
the perfectionism is expressed through just your raw presence of being in the moment and going through whatever the process is. And I love that idea of presence and being in the moment as a key part of navigating, for lack of a better word, navigating one's perfectionism, just really feeling what it's like to
00:20:30
Speaker
have self-worth not be based on something outside of yourself. And you can still be a perfectionist, you can still be into the details, or you can still be wanting things to be of really high quality and high standards. But knowing that there is no achieving of that ultimate ideal, that's not the point. And I don't know, I got so much out of that reminder from her. Yeah, absolutely.
00:21:04
Speaker
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00:21:29
Speaker
Members of our crew have said that they've reconnected with their excitement for writing and feel energized from the support they've received from us and each other. You can sign up for the writer's home at any time, which comes with a one week free trial to make sure that we're the right crew for you. You don't need to navigate these stormy seas alone. Let the writer's home take you to New Shores. I want to talk briefly about something that
00:21:56
Speaker
I mean, it's a theme throughout the book, which is like she makes it clear that a lot of the time it is women who are affected by perfectionism. And she makes the caveat and I will make the caveat here as well as a non-binary person that when she refers to women, she's referring to like AFAB individuals, people who appear to be women, people who are like who's the label of women is put upon them.
00:22:26
Speaker
we are often the ones that are subjected to being called perfectionists.
00:22:31
Speaker
And there's because when you think about like the billionaires of the world who run these big companies and are very not like Bill Gates, absolutely a perfectionist, but he's not labeled a perfectionist. And nobody says that he needs to recover from his perfectionism. No, he's labeled a visionary. He's a visionary. Right. And so and then she also talks about like, but when when women are
00:23:02
Speaker
use their perfectionism in a way that is kind of aligned with you know feminine values like homemaking so like Marie Kondo and Martha Stewart have made these empires based off of like their own version of perfectionism but because it is like in this vein that like women are expected to be in then like then that's fine but then like
00:23:25
Speaker
Other women who have these visions and who are perfectionists and who are driven and ambitious, they are labeled as perfectionists and dismissed.
00:23:37
Speaker
And we're also just, I mean, all of it ends up being this shame that's put on us of like, well, I want things and I want a different life for myself or I have these goals. And then that makes me the bad person because I am then exerting my will on the people around me. And but it's only because you are perceived to be a woman that that is a bad thing. Yeah, that was a very interesting chapter.
00:24:06
Speaker
I think it's because her framing of perfectionism as a power, as a very potent superpower, is that it's subversive. And if it's powerful and women are labeled as perfectionist in that negative sense, it's a way to throttle that power and kind of manage it. Oh, you're a perfectionist. And when you hear that as a woman, that means, oh,
00:24:34
Speaker
That's a problem. That's something I need to figure out. Yeah. I need to find balance in your life. Yeah. Well, that's another thing. Yeah. She talks about you needing to find balance of like, okay, well, if you're too ambitious, you know, then you're ungrateful and you need to find more balance in your life. And that's just something that men don't hear. You should really find some more balance in your life.
00:24:59
Speaker
They don't hear that very often. Maybe these days they might be hearing it more because we're all starting to realize like, hey, we are all very fucked up and need to learn how to enjoy our lives more. So they might be hearing it more these days. But I mean, historically, yeah, they have not been told that they need to find balance in their lives and they have never been told that their ambition is a problem.
00:25:22
Speaker
But yeah, but women, it's yeah, it's definitely a tool of control to say that perfectionism is a bad thing and then to label us that way. Yes. Yes. That's a great way of putting it. Yeah. And her discussion of that, the feminist lens of perfectionism, I have not heard that covered very often. Let's talk about the five types of perfectionist that she outlines in the book.
Types of Perfectionists
00:25:50
Speaker
So there are
00:25:51
Speaker
intense perfectionists who, you know what, I don't think we have time to go into each, each one.
00:26:00
Speaker
But they kind of are what they sound like, so intense. And then classic perfectionists, Parisian perfectionists, which has more to do with your interactions with people and how people view you, procrastinator perfectionists, who procrastinate, as you can guess, and then messy perfectionists. And then she has a quiz. You can either get it in the book or it's on her website, too, if you're curious to fill it out.
00:26:30
Speaker
Um, so like see kind of what your, what your personal cocktail of perfectionism is. Um, do you want to share your results or do you have them up? Sure. I, so I'm a blend of classic perfectionist with a heavy dose of procrastinator perfectionist. And so what that looks like for me is, um,
00:26:59
Speaker
you know what comes to mind with classic perfectionism someone who is very attuned to routines and things being a certain way and I'm not so much about you know things need to be in their place like in my home I'm actually not a super like you know everything is in its place type of person but I think it's more manifest with like my routines and my habits and being very secure in my like day-to-day
00:27:27
Speaker
surroundings and how things go. The procrastinator side of it is, and I actually realized that I discussed this in the first conversation on tolerating imperfection. So the procrastinator perfectionist is when you wait until you're ready.
00:27:44
Speaker
and you'll do all sorts of learning and, you know, oh, I just, I'm not ready yet. I need to learn more about this. I'm like, grad students are like classic at doing this. You know, I need to read another book. I need, I need to, you know, go to another conference until I'm, I feel ready to, to take on this subject or whatever it is. So I, I realize I do that very often in my business and in my life. I just want to be put together and I want to be like ready to do the thing. So if it's my business, like,
00:28:14
Speaker
My website needs to be a certain way. I need to know how to do newsletters perfectly before I even begin my first newsletter. I need to know how to do social media before I can do my first post. And I discussed before, it's funny because it's in the doing that you learn who you are when you're doing these things. And you can't know that until you've already put in the time to practice. And so that's why
00:28:41
Speaker
slight segue to ugly art. That's why in my life, the ugly art practice has been so useful is because it... I'm having so many thoughts. What it does is it makes it so that
00:28:57
Speaker
I don't procrastinate as much because what is there to procrastinate it? But I am literally just appearing at my art desk. I am making something. I don't even know what it is until I made it. And then I'm walking away 15 minutes later. Like it just helps practice, you know, whatever I need to learn about myself to not wait so much and to not have to feel ready. So I'm tolerating the small imperfections so that I can now in my new language, I can celebrate my superpower.
00:29:28
Speaker
and go into an adaptive state. So that's, that's my blend is like classic and procrastination.
00:29:36
Speaker
What about you? Nice. Yeah, I am also a procrastinator perfectionist, which, well, I'm a blend. And I've taken this quiz twice now. And the first time I took it when the book first came out, and it's funny because the my results have changed. And I'm very curious if that has been. I mean, granted, it hasn't been like that long. But like in that time, I have continued with my ugly art practice and like kind of leaning into this new way of trying to like
00:30:05
Speaker
get started with things and be okay making mistakes as you're learning. And so originally I had like, I can't remember the exact concoction, but I think it was like classic procrastinator and Parisian. And this time I got procrastinator messy and Parisian.
00:30:24
Speaker
which was very surprising to me because like the results of like a messy perfectionist is someone that effortlessly pushes through the anxiety of new beginnings which is like the complete opposition to procrastinator perfectionist but I think that is the result of this continued practice of like no I'm gonna start it I'm just gonna do it and here we go but then like the problem with messy perfectionist is sometimes you start and then you struggle to stay focused on those goals because
00:30:53
Speaker
you're spreading your energy too thin, you're trying too many things, which I absolutely did that with my business. As soon as I started learning how to work with my perfectionism in different ways and step away from the procrastinating, I started to just put a little bit of my energy into all these different things. I'm like, this is exciting, but then it became untenable.
00:31:20
Speaker
So, it is funny to see how, you know, the types of your personal, your perfectionism personality can change as you start to kind of explore.
00:31:30
Speaker
the full effects of the super power. So like, if you are usually someone that gets stuck at the beginning, you're that procrastinator perfectionist, you might, you know, start to practice messy beginnings as like all the time, and then you kind of ease into a messy perfectionist and you, you know, start to deal with the struggles that come along with that. So I thought that was very funny.
00:31:55
Speaker
And then Parisian is like the, it's interpersonal connections. You have a really strong capacity for empathy, but the desire to connect with people can kind of end up in these like very toxic relationship patterns and dynamics. Yeah, what's cool about the five types is that it's not like you're all of one thing or even like a blend
00:32:23
Speaker
you know, deep down in your core. It's like in some situations you might be a messy perfectionist and, you know, start a million things and then burn out because you don't have, you know, the sustained energy to follow through. And in some certain parts of your life, and then in other parts you might be a classic perfectionist or a Parisian perfectionist only happens during the holidays, for example. So I found, I thought that was an interesting nuance to say, it's not necessarily that you're one thing, it's the, you know,
00:32:54
Speaker
Your whole personality is this one thing. As you said, it can change. And also, we were talking about the spectrum of adaptive versus maladaptive mindsets that all of these perfectionisms can be filtered through. You can slip in and out of any of them. And so it's not that you're labeled in some fundamental way. I've found that thinking of
00:33:23
Speaker
Thinking of the self-worth piece again, thinking of that as it's in you and nothing can touch it, that's the adaptive version of all this. It's like, I'm worthy right now. The maladaptive is when any of these things becomes, oh, I'm only worthy if this thing happens or if I write a perfect, flawless thing or if I
00:33:47
Speaker
I am the perfect mother, then I'm worthy of being celebrated or I'm worthy of even just resting. I think that's the big shift for me is internal versus external sources of self-worth and that you should endeavor to make sure that you never center your self-worth outside of yourself.
00:34:16
Speaker
Yeah, well that kind of moves us directly into this thing that she talks about, which is like the difference between self esteem and self worth. And the idea that like you have to feel good about yourself.
00:34:31
Speaker
in order to believe that you are worthy of good things or like that you deserve to go try something new or take a risk or be imperfect in some capacity or other. The idea that like, well, and we talked about this in the previous episode too of just like when I feel ready to do something, like when I have the confidence, when I have the self-esteem to make these changes in my life, then I will go make these changes in my life.
00:34:59
Speaker
And that shift of knowing, this deep knowing, I am worthy of the things that I want right now. And whether or not I feel confident doesn't matter because I believe in my self-worth and I believe that I deserve the rocky, windy path to get wherever I need to go instead of just sitting here fearing what's ahead and not feeling like I have the confidence to do so.
00:35:28
Speaker
That's been the most powerful shift that happened for me with starting my business. When I was first on the verge of starting my business, I had all these excuses for why I hadn't started it yet. So many of them were external. Then there was that internal piece of like, and then also I'm just like, I don't feel like I'm ready.
Self-Worth vs Self-Esteem?
00:35:54
Speaker
I don't feel like I have the confidence to do this.
00:35:58
Speaker
And so that shift of like, okay, well, you're starting because you quit your job. So here you go. You have to start regardless. And then like the self worth piece kind of came along with it of like, no, I know that I don't feel confident to do this, but like,
00:36:17
Speaker
You know, I had to start this like this mantra of like my my worth comes from the breath in my lungs, not the work of my hands. And I would say that to myself just like every single day and like reminding myself that no matter what, whatever these hands end up doing and putting out into the world, that ultimately has zero effect on my self worth as a person and what I am deserving of this life. Yeah, how empowering. I love that.
00:36:48
Speaker
Yeah, I'm just having flashbacks of starting my business too, and it's very similar, not feeling confident, not even knowing what the heck I was doing, barely even knowing that I could have an editing business. Just having a slight idea that it exists, and then I was working in a small press.
00:37:13
Speaker
Of course, I was doing editing, but I didn't really understand at the time what freelance editing would be like if I started my own business and got my own clients. Yeah, I moved on from that and was like, okay, now I have to. I have to figure something out.
00:37:31
Speaker
Yeah, if I could go back and tell myself your mantra, that would have really benefited me because I was like, I have to have it all figured out before I can have any success before anyone will take me seriously.
00:37:46
Speaker
You just have to start somewhere and and for me I started somewhere and now I've Pivoted my entire business. So it's like it's fine I had no idea that I would pivot to fiction like six years into my business It was something totally different and that's fine. That's how that happens with everything yeah, and it's just it's the process of keeping showing up and and
00:38:09
Speaker
as yourself doing things in alignment with your values. And that's how perfectionism can be a superpower when it just pushes you in the right directions and your self-worth is untouchable by any of your performance, by any of your external markers of success. And when you do that, you are almost guaranteed to
00:38:36
Speaker
be successful because you will you know you will define success in your own terms yeah well and you'll constantly be telling yourself like i have this desire in life and i'm deserving to like i deserve to go pursue that and so you're
00:38:54
Speaker
If you can harness that superpower, you're making this life for yourself that is beautiful and that aligns with you as a person, that aligns with your personality, that aligns with the relationships that you want, that aligns with your purpose, your creativity,
00:39:14
Speaker
whatever it is, it really just opens up this world of possibilities for you. You don't have to be stuck anymore. You don't have to be stuck in this life that you're not happy with. If you actually are able to harness that perfectionism to pull you out of that stuck place and be okay with failure along the way, be okay of making a fool of yourself, be okay with
00:39:40
Speaker
feeling uncomfortable in the unknown, if you can start to appreciate those things, then your perfectionism will pull you out of that stuck place and you will have an incredible life that you are proud of and that you love. I really believe that. I believe it too.
00:40:02
Speaker
I don't even know what more to say after that. That's it. That is how I feel too. The book is just so succinct in how it empowers the perfectionist to see what their perfectionism is like and to pursue the life they want as being pulled along, like you said, with this
00:40:30
Speaker
beautiful thing that is their perfectionism. What other book says that about perfectionism? I don't know. Right. I know. None of them. At one point, she starts listing off all of the titles of all these books that are just like, kill your inner perfectionist. Yeah. Just so pathologized. I actually went back on my website and I noted a few places where I'm like, I'm a recovering perfectionist. Oh, yeah.
00:41:01
Speaker
I think I'm going to reword that. Yeah, I absolutely I like, I probably still need to look on my website and make sure things aren't that way. But like, yeah, when I first started my website, everything was like, I'm a recovering perfectionist, or like, I can make your book perfect, you know, in those really early days of editing, when I'm just like, I can make everything perfect, because I'm an editor. Not true.
00:41:23
Speaker
I was very excited to show you this. I have a sticker on my water bottle that says, Hello, I'm a recovering perfectionist. I just scratched it out and I wrote adaptive over recovering. That's perfect. Hello, I'm an adaptive perfectionist.
00:41:43
Speaker
I would love for someone out in the world to see that and ask you about it, and then you could be on your way telling everyone you know about this book. Right. Well, that's what this podcast is, is me telling everyone about it. Oh, yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
00:41:59
Speaker
We have this idea that everything we do has to be good or have value. This belief leads us to burn out. It can hold us back from creating altogether. But in my Ugly Art 101 course, I break down these restrictive beliefs and lead you through exercises that intentionally subvert perfectionism and bring playfulness back into your creative process. You can get the first day absolutely free by going to my website, scribeandsunshine.com and signing up on the homepage. Join me in my weird ugly art revolution. Back to the show.
00:42:33
Speaker
Okay, so we are getting low on time. I did want to talk about this one piece, which I think we've come to a good understanding about it, but like what I
00:42:45
Speaker
What I want to bring up is at one point she talks about how perfectionists always get this advice to do imperfect things on purpose, like show up late or get a bad grade or these things to prove to yourself that you're not a perfectionist or something like that. And so I thought that it was an interesting conclusion to draw, or at least just the statement that she said, which was,
00:43:12
Speaker
So many perfectionists are given the terrible advice to be mediocre on purpose, hoping that it will break their perfectionism like a fever. And they follow this advice, but not only does it not work, it also ends up making them feel worse because they assume they must be doing something wrong. And I thought this was interesting because of my discovery with ugly art and how, for me, making ugly things on purpose
00:43:38
Speaker
it kind of did help break the fever in a way of at least the maladaptive pieces of perfectionism. It helped me realize that, oh, I'm actually safe to make imperfect things. So I'm curious, I know, yeah, I'm curious what your thoughts are on this and then how we can kind of expand this because I think that it's not so simple as just like, ugly art is just like, you're making bad things on purpose, but I think it's a lot more expansive than that.
Embracing 'Ugly Art'
00:44:07
Speaker
But if you want to jump in first. Well, my thoughts on that are that ugly art is a perfect practice for being present with yourself and just allowing self-expression to happen, whatever that looks like. And she talks a lot about how
00:44:36
Speaker
one of the mindset shifts to get out of a maladaptive space is to, is to prioritize the process versus the outcome, right? So for me, when I read that, I was like, well, an ugly art practice is the perfect way to do that. Well, it was for me, because there is no outcome. Like my, the only outcome is
00:45:03
Speaker
In 15 minutes, I will have made this little thing, this little piece of art. And in my case, I put it up on my wall to remind myself of all of my ugly art interventions that have helped me
00:45:17
Speaker
become more comfortable with the unknown. So for me, I just I go to my art desk, I sit down, I have no idea what will emerge. And that was at first very uncomfortable, very scary. I want to have the plan. I want to know where I'm going. I want to know exactly what the outcome is going to be. And will I be able to achieve it? But in the ugly art practice, it's like, I don't know what's going on. Hey,
00:45:39
Speaker
Do I want to paint today? Yes, I do. Pick up the paint. What colors do I like? Yep, this, this, this. It allows me to make micro decisions. And then in the end, the outcome is not even the point. The point was I sat down and I expressed myself and I enjoyed it and I chose things I liked in the moment. Like today I like pastels and I like really dark colors for some reason and I'm scribbling today and it's really ugly.
00:46:05
Speaker
And I love it and I absolutely love this thing put on the wall or like another day. I don't know it's it's I'm writing maybe I'm just writing today and my ugly art quote-unquote is this ugly little poem Mm-hmm. So I don't know going back to it. It's the process. It's the showing up. It's the just seeing what emerges has been
00:46:27
Speaker
a complete revelation to me. And it has helped me not get over my perfectionism, but now I understand the language to shift into this adaptive perfectionism that will pull me forward in a healthy way. That's what the ugly art practice has done. So yeah, the process versus outcome for me is where it fits. Yeah, I love that. I think it's also, it might
00:46:53
Speaker
very like obviously making ugly art is not going to work for all perfectionists like but like maybe especially for us procrastinator perfectionists it's particularly helpful for us in that way of like focusing on process over outcome.
00:47:10
Speaker
Because we have such a hard time on that piece. I hadn't considered that but it's so true because what you're actually doing is you're just starting. When you practice starting and making those initial decisions, it's the fear of the blank page.
00:47:27
Speaker
or the fear of starting the art and maybe it's not going to work out and I'll be devastated. But with the ugly art, it's like I'm just starting and it's casual. It's safe. It's easy. It's fun. It's short. Well, in my in my case is short. And I do it over and over and over again. And I'm practicing being present and being in the flow of my creative expression. Also what it's teaching me
00:47:53
Speaker
and perhaps others other procrastinator perfectionists is that you can start you can start over and over again and that it's okay or you can come back to the same thing and just start anew like it doesn't have to be this whole ordeal of like making sure you're ready and making sure you have everything in place that you're gonna be safe and you're gonna figure it out
00:48:13
Speaker
wherever you start and you're going to grow from there. So yeah, I love that idea that maybe a particular flavor of perfectionist would benefit even more. Yeah.
00:48:24
Speaker
It's a nice hypothesis. Yeah. I like it. That's my theory. Um, so ultimately she ends that section by saying you don't need to heal by changing who you are. You heal by learning how to be yourself in the world. And I think that's such an important distinction between like that advice of like, well, just like get a bad grade on purpose or, you know, do these things, but like that's not you being yourself.
00:48:50
Speaker
But ugly art, making ugly art, whatever comes out of you, whatever creation, that is you. That is peace of yourself. And you're practicing how to be yourself and learn that yourself is a safe place to inhabit. So I think that's kind of what ties in how ugly art fits into this realm of healing and perfectionism.
00:49:21
Speaker
Yeah, I ran out of steam. That's all I got, yeah. Well, that's a perfect place to end it. Perfect, ugly place to end it, indeed. Exactly. Before we go, have you made anything particularly ugly recently that you are proud of?
00:49:35
Speaker
I've just been making small postcard sized whatevers, like whatevers on my desk. I'm particularly into my oil pastels and also I have a few stamps. And I was back home recently and I found in my closet, my childhood closet, like a stamp of my name, which is really funny. And so I've been like stamping my name in my ugly art and I feel like I'm five. So it's been really fun.
00:50:05
Speaker
Oh, anything that makes me feel like I'm five. It's just pure euphoria. Yep. Oh, so good. I have been making a lot of things recently, mostly I've been using my art to kind of process through some emotional things happening. So I've been doing a lot of these little like, just like three by three watercolors of my
00:50:27
Speaker
of my feelings just like picking a color and splashing however my feelings are feeling in my body and that's been really good and yeah they're very they're very ugly but it's also watercolor so it's kind of hard to make watercolor like that ugly like it's just pretty colors on a page like it doesn't look like anything obviously but it's just bleh and it's great it makes me it feels good and it's a nice way to like connect to my body
00:50:51
Speaker
and connect to my feelings and stuff. And it's a snapshot in time. It is. And it's actually been really fun because I've been doing it pretty consistently over the past month and a half. And so I'll lay them all out onto the table. And it's just this big tapestry of my emotions for the past month. And it's pretty cool. I love that. Yeah.
00:51:15
Speaker
Well, thank you, Erika, for being here again. It is great, as always, to talk to you about perfectionism, and I just love it. And thank you to Katherine Morgan Shaffler, who wrote The Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control. Erika and I love your book. It got so much out of it, and I highly recommend it to anybody listening who identifies as a perfectionist or has perfectionist tendencies.
00:51:41
Speaker
This book will set you free from a lot of shame and I cannot recommend it enough. It is linked in the show notes as well as a link to the perfectionist quiz to kind of figure out what type of perfectionist you are. And for everybody listening, this is actually going to be the last episode that I'm going to put out for a while. I'm going to go on a bit of a hiatus. So I would love to tell you when exactly I'll be back, but I don't have that answer right now.
00:52:10
Speaker
My goal will be either kind of September-ish, like start of the school year, or if that is not happening for whatever reason, I'm going to do it in the new year. So the Ugly podcast will continue, but I'm going to give myself some space to process some things happening in my personal life and then also
00:52:30
Speaker
kind of plan ahead for what the future of this podcast holds and who some really cool guests would be. So yes, in the meantime, if you could rate and review this podcast wherever you listen and make sure you subscribe so you don't miss when I come back.
00:52:47
Speaker
And yeah, keep an eye out. Uh, uh, just follow me on Instagram. That's where I will be when I'm able to post more regularly and yeah, just keep making ugly things. Uh, start to kind of embrace your perfectionism or whatever is going on. Like you don't need to fix yourself. Uh, you are whole and wonderful as you are and you get to make whatever you want. Um, so yeah, thanks Erica. Thank you. Keep it ugly everybody.
00:53:17
Speaker
The Ugly podcast is created by me, Lauren Alexander of Scribe and Sunshine. It is produced and sort of edited, also by me, and written and directed by absolutely nobody. If you like the podcast, be sure to rate and leave a review on your preferred platform and share with the creative people in your life. If you're interested in learning more about what I do, head to scribeandsunshine.com to learn more about my Ugly Art 101 course, my perfectionism workshop, my editing services, and the Writer's Helm, which is an online community for writers, co-captain by myself and Gabby Goodlow. As always, keep it ugly.