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73: What Is The Role Of A Christian When It Comes To Politics? (Part 1)
213 Plays2 years ago
Dr. Benjamin Haupt joined Jill Devine and Ryan Pfendler for a two-part discussion about the challenging times we are encountering in our society. Dr. Haupt is associate provost and associate professor of Practical Theology at Concordia Seminary, St. Louis. As associate provost, Dr. Haupt assists the Seminary provost in achieving key strategic priorities in support of the mission of the Seminary. He oversees the Seminary’s recruitment and admissions teams and serves as a liaison to faculty and staff involved in accomplishing the Seminary’s enrollment goals related to its residential, distance and multiethnic Ministerial Formation programs and Advanced Studies programs. Dr. Haupt has been a faculty member since 2013. His areas of interest and expertise include the history of the text of the New Testament, early Christianity prior to Constantine, the intersection of church and society, 19th century Lutheran missiology, the theology and practice of preaching, and pastoral/congregational leadership.
He earned a Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.) from the University of Birmingham, U.K. (2019), and both a Master of Sacred Theology (S.T.M.) and a Master of Divinity (M.Div.) from Concordia Seminary, St. Louis (2011, 2005). He received a Bachelor of Arts (B.A.) from Concordia University Wisconsin, Mequon (2000). During his M.Div. program, he studied for a year at Lutherische Theologische Hochschule in Oberursel, Germany. After graduation he was installed as an associate pastor at St. Paul Lutheran Church in Boca Raton, Fla., and served there until 2008. From 2008-13 he was the sole pastor of Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Gainesville, Ga.
Dr. Haupt has been speaking, teaching and writing since 2008 and has been involved with a variety of seminars ranging from lay-focused sessions for people in Haiti to breakout sessions at conferences throughout the United States. His writing includes a translation of a sermon for Luther’s Works, vol. 58, essays on the early history of the New Testament text in the writings of church fathers, his Ph.D. dissertation titled “Tertullian’s Text of the New Testament Outside the Gospels,” a volume of translated and edited essays by Hans Joachim Iwand on Church and Society, and a volume of translated essays on early LCMS mission.
Dr. Haupt is married to Celina, who works at Captain Elementary School. They have two sons. He and his family are avid travelers, comics readers, Lego-maniacs and video gamers. He leads the Concordia Wine Society.
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hauptben
Twitter: @benhaupt
Email: hauptb@csl.edu
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Transcript
Introduction to Jill Devine Media Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
The following podcast is a Jill Devine Media production.
Misconceptions about Christianity
00:00:04
Speaker
Christianity has become known for judgy people, strange words, ancient stories, confusing rules, and a members-only mindset.
Jill Devine's Faith Journey
00:00:13
Speaker
This is why I stayed away from the church for so long, but it's not supposed to be that way. I'm Jill Devine, a former radio personality with three tattoos, a love for a good tequila, and who's never read the entire Bible.
00:00:24
Speaker
Yet here I am hosting a podcast about faith.
Purpose of 'Normal Goes a Long Way' Podcast
00:00:28
Speaker
The normal goes a long way podcast is your home for real conversations with real people using real language about how faith and real life intersect. Welcome to the conversation.
00:00:40
Speaker
Well, hey, guys, it's good to be back for another stories episode at normal goes a long way.
Pursuit of Theology Master’s Degree
00:00:45
Speaker
And today we are talking to I'd say one of the main reasons I'm actually pursuing a master's right now at Concordia Seminary in St. Louis. We're talking to a guy named Ben who I approached probably a year and a half ago trying to figure out a way to get into pastoral ministry without going to Concordia Seminary. Problem is this guy works for Concordia Seminary and I should have known that going in and he convinced me to
Significance of Theology Education
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Speaker
go. So now
00:01:10
Speaker
I'm pursuing my master's and Ben is on staff there. Wait a minute. So what does it mean to get your master's in a religion school? Like I know what it means to get it at a regular university.
00:01:27
Speaker
Uh, I'll give my answer and then Ben will give his professional paid position answer. Okay. My answer is it means you go to classes so that you can, so I'm already working at a church, but now I get to do more at a church because I've got my masters.
Role of a Deaconess
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Speaker
Okay. Like I get to preach.
00:01:48
Speaker
Oh, you become like a pastor. Yes. Yes. But not everyone gets a master's at a religion school to become a pastor because there's also email students that are getting a degree in their Deaconess studies. Okay. What's a Deaconess? All right, Ben, I'm exhausted at my knowledge here. He's exhausted at me. I love it. I love it. I
Ben's Podcasting Journey and Deaconess Concept
00:02:08
Speaker
am so honored to be on with you, Ryan and Jill, and just so excited about
00:02:15
Speaker
I think podcasting is a lot of fun. I have a podcast myself and so with a friend of mine named Micah and so yeah honored to be on and honored to talk a little bit about Concordia Seminary and whatever else you both want to want to talk about.
Training and Roles of Deaconesses
00:02:38
Speaker
A deaconess to answer Jill's question is someone who serves in the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod and
00:02:46
Speaker
in our church body as a woman who is trained theologically in a robust way, not just a few classes on religion or something, but really thorough training in how to read and understand the Bible, how to understand the history of the church, how to understand a little bit of the church's core teachings,
Diverse Roles for Deaconesses
00:03:16
Speaker
and then how to actually practice. And so for a Deaconess, the practices of ministry often are, they can be a whole bunch of different things. It could be like running a woman shelter, or it could be running a preschool. It could be helping at a church as a youth director, or
Master's Programs at Concordia Seminary
00:03:41
Speaker
It could be working at a retirement community or a nursing home of some sort. So a deaconess is a woman that has lots of theological education and then can go into
00:03:58
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work in service to her neighbor. Actually, our pastor's daughter's a deaconess just up the road and she does youth ministry there. So here's your example. I've known others to be missionaries overseas. So okay. Oh, yeah. Now then let's go to the other question about the masters and besides it, maybe giving the title of pastor, what else would someone be going to a religious school to pursue their masters?
00:04:27
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We have kind of two master's degrees, at least two kinds. One is what's called a professional master's degree. So it's kind of like getting a master in business administration or a master's in education. It's really geared toward, I mean, it's academic, it's a master's degree, but it's geared toward practicing something, toward doing something. So an MBA gives you the theoretical and the practical frameworks to do business.
00:04:57
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or a master's of education makes you a better educator.
Global Impact of Concordia's Programs
00:05:01
Speaker
So a master's of divinity or a master of deaconess studies gives one the practices to do ministry, like how to preach, how to visit shut-ins, how to create and write Bible studies, how to lead faith-based organizations, congregations, and that sort of thing.
00:05:26
Speaker
So we could have, so we have people that come from practical masters primarily that are either going to be a pastor or a deaconess to serve in the church. Then we also have some academic master's degrees. That's more like if you were going to get a master's degree in history or a master's degree in philosophy or English, where you just come and study theology. And it's not really necessarily for any particular purpose. It's just,
00:05:56
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kind of continuing education or preparation to get even another degree, like a PhD or something like that.
Flexibility in Program Prerequisites
00:06:03
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So yeah, we have people from around the world that come and take our master's degree in theology. We have a lot of students from Africa and Asia who then go back and are theological educators back in their hometowns. So yeah, it's a fun place to work.
00:06:25
Speaker
I know Ryan did not ask you to come on here to talk about education, really. And I have all these questions. So let me ask this as someone who has received
00:06:36
Speaker
her undergrad and master's at a public sector, could I just attend or get my master's? Would I have to go to the undergrad side first and then get a master's if I wanted to go that route for ministry? How does that work for those people like me? Great question. I see where it's going, and I like it. Maybe.
00:07:05
Speaker
So you do not have to have an undergrad in theology or in Bible or anything to enter our master's program. So in order to get into our master's program, you have to have a bachelor's degree in anything. And then, yeah, you can take a master's degree in
00:07:32
Speaker
get a master's in theology. And there would be a ton of electivity in our master's degree, our MA in theology is probably our most kind of flexible degree. So
00:07:47
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You can take a bunch of different stuff depending on what's being offered So it might be a course on a particular book of the Bible or it might be a course on Something practical like how to give spiritual care to people or how to teach The faith so yeah, anybody can come good to know it's actually good because our
Interest in Pastoral Roles Among Youth
00:08:13
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Believe it or not, Jill, so we had an Ask the Pastor night recently. I had 75 to 80 middle schoolers write down any question they could ask a pastor. And after questions about heaven, questions about how to become a pastor or why you become a pastor was like the second most popular one. So I don't know. Kids are interested in how to become this thing that they see on a stage on Sundays. It's very intriguing to me. Oh, go ahead.
00:08:40
Speaker
I was just going to say that's awesome, and I think it says a lot about pastors and church workers at Messiah, right? Because in our day today, people want to follow in the foots
00:08:55
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and admire, and they're not going to do something just because they feel some duty or obligation probably. It's much more likely that they're going to pick a profession because they've personally been impacted in some way.
Ben’s Book on Hans Iwand
00:09:14
Speaker
And so, yeah, I think that says a lot about what y'all are doing.
00:09:18
Speaker
And then at the beginning of this episode, you mentioned that you had a podcast. Go ahead and tell me the name of that and then I'll let Ryan take over. I was starting to go down that trail and I thought, I don't want to be like.
00:09:39
Speaker
big tree and it's a podcast specifically about potentially going into church work. So if you're looking, there are several under the fig tree podcasts, but ours is kind of has a beige background and an olive green big fig tree. So that's us under the fig tree, Ben Howpton, Micah Glenn.
00:10:07
Speaker
I will have that at our show notes at normalgoestalongway.com. Okay, so Ryan, that's your turn now. Yeah, yeah. I think Ben's pointing out. This is a great podcast. This is just the way ours is too. Very conversational. Yes. We're all over the place. Love it. Well, Ben, you made a point that people look to their pastors and they're intrigued by them because of their relationship with them and they look to them for guidance.
00:10:35
Speaker
And I think a pastor's role sometimes is to both affirm and uplift people where necessary, but also sometimes to challenge them and to invite them into something greater. And you actually just wrote a book about a pastor in a very unique place at a very unique time. Um, this is what made me want to interview you. I found Ben one day on campus and I said, I heard you're writing a book and he said, yeah, it's about this.
00:11:02
Speaker
German pastor with a difficult to pronounce name who served as a pastor in Germany in the 30s. And I thought, well, that's an interesting time to be a pastor in Germany, because there's some stuff going on there if you know your history. I don't. So I'm going to let Ben give the historical background. But politically speaking,
00:11:27
Speaker
this was a challenging time to be a pastor, and it was a challenging time to be the church. And I think what you talked about with this pastor could teach us today, right, in our American context, where we vote, Christians get to have a voice in politics, and we're almost expected to. And
00:11:47
Speaker
Every election cycle doesn't matter how, what year it is, people want to know what are evangelicals supporting, where are evangelicals going in their political support. So all those things came together to make me say, I want to know more about what you learned from this pastor and what you know about Christians and their place in the political world.
00:12:10
Speaker
I'm, I'm delighted to talk a little bit about this book. I will give a, an initial apology. So the book is a, is a very academic book published by a great publisher TNT Clark.
00:12:32
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I'm a big fan. And so I thought, wow, it would be really cool to get published by the same printing house that prints Harry Potter. I think we probably won't sell as many copies as Harry
Hans Iwand's Theological Evolution
00:12:43
Speaker
Potter. And for that reason, publishers have to pick a price for the book that kind of covers their costs. So right now, the book is sitting at a whopping $105 copy.
00:12:59
Speaker
I'm hopeful that I will sell some copies to academic libraries and professors and such and if we sell enough copies in the academy then the price of the book will probably come down to like a regular book like 20 or 30 bucks once they get the first run done. So consider this a kind of an intro and
00:13:41
Speaker
don't get any money I don't get anything from that all the proceeds go to a foundation that that is that honors the legacy of this pastor so without further ado let's talk about this this guy his name is Hans Joachim Yvonne I-W-A-N-D so kind of looks like
00:13:46
Speaker
if you have
00:14:07
Speaker
he would have pronounced it Yvant as a good German boy. So let's just call him Hans, because I think that that's probably, it's a very German sounding name, but that's most easily pronounced. So Hans was born in what is today basically Poland.
00:14:31
Speaker
And he was born in 1899. So he came of age. He graduated and was ready to go to university in 1917, which was, as our listeners may know, in the middle of World War I. World War I wouldn't end until 1918.
00:14:52
Speaker
And so Yvonne grew up in a, Hans grew up in a really kind of tumultuous time. There was a world war going on and he was called up to serve in World War I. Listeners might know another interesting writer that grew up in this time and had a very similar story in some ways, J.R.R. Tolkien.
00:15:18
Speaker
was born right around the same time and as a young man served in World War I, I just read a great book called Tolkien and the Great War by John Garth. The stories that are told of World War I and being in the bunkers, maybe listeners have seen recently, what's the movie? Oh, Quiet on the Western Front. Oh yeah, I've seen that.
00:15:47
Speaker
What a horrific movie, right? And so these young men, they were not women serving in the trenches. Certainly a lot of women serving kind of behind the scenes and caring for soldiers and that sort of thing. And it was impactful on everybody, but these scenes of being in the bunkers and the trenches in World War I, oof.
00:16:17
Speaker
So Hans kind of, he goes off to war and then shortly after the war ends, he decides to go and study theology. And I wonder, I mean, I think living through really tough stuff has a way of focusing somebody on what's truly most important in life.
Iwand’s Academic Impact
00:16:44
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And I think,
00:16:46
Speaker
Hans kind of had this sort of experience. He gets caught up in some political movements. At one point, he was at a rally that Adolf Hitler was also at. I saw in my research. And it was just this crazy time of people trying to figure out what's the right way to go. And there's all these riots and protests.
00:17:13
Speaker
And as a young man, I think he was just kind of caught up in all of it, sort of the way that probably a lot of people today are caught up in all the craziness of riots and protests. And there's a lot of tough things going on in our world today. And so a lot of this similar unrest. So he decides, given all this craziness in the world, I think I want to study theology.
00:17:43
Speaker
He had a mentor that he really got to know well, and the mentor said, you really ought to come and study theology. So he goes off and studies theology, and he becomes a professor then. He's kind of back and forth in a bunch of different places, but he finally kind
Political Challenges Faced by Iwand
00:18:07
Speaker
of
00:18:07
Speaker
makes it as a professor, publishes his first book in 1926. And he starts teaching at the University of Königsberg, which is way over. It's in Russia now, right? Yeah. Yeah. So he's teaching there. And in 1932, he's kind of the like kind of past
00:18:38
Speaker
at this house of students. And in 1932, a bunch of SA troops, which is kind of a precursor to the SS, which eventually becomes Adolf Hitler's kind of army, these troops come in and they kind of raid his house and they tell him that he's going to be
00:19:06
Speaker
deposed and fired from his position because he had written some things that were kind of controversial. He was not a big fan of this guy, Adolf Hitler, who was potentially coming to power. And so Hitler started to round up people that were not getting in line. And a lot of this stuff was going on behind the scenes in Germany.
Germany’s Post-WWI Political Shift
00:19:30
Speaker
There wasn't a lot of
00:19:32
Speaker
There wasn't a lot of talking about it early on in the days. At one point, Dietrich Bonhoeffer in 1933, who's also, maybe listeners know about Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Bonhoeffer was another Lutheran pastor, had a very, very similar early life as Hans did, studied theology, and then in 1933,
00:20:01
Speaker
Dietrich Bonhoeffer was on a radio broadcast and he said some things that were pretty critical of the new Fuhrer, the new leader. Hitler didn't like the term that the
00:20:14
Speaker
leader of the German people had been given and so he came up with his own title and it was Fuhrer and and Bonhoeffer said some things that were not real kind about that. He was really quite nervous about a leader that just had
00:20:35
Speaker
all power and could do what basically whatever he wanted and everybody was just kind of in line and said yes whatever you want to do will do um it was this terrifying kind of raw assertion of power maybe you've heard of uh lord acton who once said power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely and so uh
00:21:02
Speaker
So Bonhoeffer and Hans Ivan start talking about how challenging it is for this raw assertion of power, this absolute power, how corrupt it was. And they started to talk about how Christians should really be aware of what is going on in the government because
00:21:31
Speaker
The government was basically telling Christians what to think and what to say and Bonhoeffer and Hans didn't like that very much and they they they had a lot to say about how the church should
00:21:46
Speaker
respond to society. It's interesting that they were set against this absolute ruling that you were talking about because if Hans was born in Germany in 1899, well, he was born under an authoritative ruler then because Germany was under a king, right? And so that's interesting that it seems like his attitudes had shifted when it came to absolute power and that sort of thing.
Iwand’s Political and Theological Stance
00:22:14
Speaker
Maybe I'm wrong here, but
00:22:16
Speaker
Um, he grew up in a monarchial system anyways, but what I'm really curious about is, you know, you mentioned he was at a rally with Hitler.
00:22:26
Speaker
It sounded like in the 20s or 30s, but how did his politics change? Was he on various sides? Was he figuring himself out during that interwar period before coming down on this position that we now know him for historically? Yeah, that's exactly right.
00:22:48
Speaker
As far as the King's thing goes, there's a great book called The Guns of August by Barbara Tuchman. And she has this really interesting scene at the beginning of the book in 1914
00:23:03
Speaker
gets assassinated, a ruler in Austria. So the scene is there are all these kings of all these different countries and kind of people groups, right? So there's the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the British Empire and the German Empire and the Prussian Empire
00:23:32
Speaker
And all of these, a bunch of these kings are kind of riding in a parade at the beginning of this book. And Tuchman basically points out that nothing like this would ever happen again. So World War I was basically the end of kings being rulers over states or nations or countries
00:23:59
Speaker
in the west and what comes after World War I is new systems of, I mean this is ultimately what World War I is about, creating a new system that's based on choice and democracy is a much more important thing, becomes a much more important thing especially in Western Europe.
Church Resistance to Nazi Ideologies
00:24:26
Speaker
So
00:24:33
Speaker
but more of a somewhat democratically elected leader. These two guys, these pastors in Germany, you mentioned Bonne Efer and we have Hans here. You mentioned that Hitler at that point and that the government was taking stances against the church, right? Proposing ideologies, proposing things that these pastors felt went against their beliefs.
00:25:03
Speaker
I'm curious what exactly those things were because in the early 30s, you know, this is not the 1940s. And so I'm actually not super familiar with how it was the agenda and how the government's programs had developed. So what were they specifically opposing at that time?
Tease for Next Episode on Good Samaritan
00:25:23
Speaker
We have so much more to learn from Ben. And so we're going to hit pause on this week's conversation. And then I hope you will join us for the continuation of this conversation next week when we launch part two. And here's a little sneak preview.
00:25:38
Speaker
Oftentimes when people preach about the parable of the Good Samaritan, they love to talk about what we should do or how we should help our neighbor. But the real question of that parable is who is my neighbor? What Christians really need to think about is who is our neighbor? The obvious answer of like help our own is not what Jesus was getting at with that parable. Our neighbor is the person that we most fundamentally disagree with. Maybe even the person that we've come to hate
00:26:06
Speaker
because of their position on something.