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TOS: "The Apple" (s2e5) with Robert Skir, Kurt Carley, and Jim Newman
140 Plays4 months ago
WHO'S THE DEVIL? A straight down the middle episode from the original series has Bryan and his guests pondering what really stands out about this adventure where the crew must overpower an alien serpent statue that has taken away all humanly pleasures from the humanoids it has tasked with fueling it for centuries on end. Breaking the chains of Vaal's control is an anxious Captain Kirk and a horny Ensign Chekov with his girlfriend (?) Yeoman Landon. There's some damseling, some ass-kicking, and a whole lot of red shirt deaths in this one.
It's our final Wild Card episode of the season and joining Bryan to help grade this one are writer-producer Robert Skir, actor Kurt Carley, and Jim Newman, co-creator of the Go Fact Yourself podcast (https://gofactyourpod.com/). The grades begin at (18:25).
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Transcript
Introduction and Host Introductions
00:00:00
Speaker
This week on Trek Mary Kill, Vol, Russia, redshirts, next. Captain's log, Stardate 3715.3. Our investigation of Gamma Trianguli-6 has suddenly turned into a nightmare. Captain! The tricorder readings are totally inefficient.
00:00:22
Speaker
Would you mind being careful where you throw your rocks, Mr. Spy?
00:00:30
Speaker
I am the eyes of all.
00:00:40
Speaker
Let's get out of here!
00:00:56
Speaker
Jim! Spock!
00:01:04
Speaker
Spock.
00:01:15
Speaker
Hi, I'm Brian. I'm Bob. I'm Kurt. And I'm Jim. Welcome to Trek, Marry, and Kill, a Star Trek podcast with an unsurpassed talent for understatement. This week, our last Wild Card episode of the season and joining me for the discussion or judgment or whatever you like to call what we do. Here is a trio of wild cards. I've got Bob Skier as a writer with several light years worth of credits, including, and this is just a small sampling, X-Men, Gargoyle, Spider-Man the Animated Series, Superman the Animated Series, and my personal favorite, it almost made me quit Little League just so I could watch it every day, Batman the Animated Series. There's Kirk Carley. He is an actor who has done a lot of creature work appearing in the underworld films, Unfriended Dark Web,
00:01:57
Speaker
the old UPN show Special Unit 2, and was the Creature Motion Specialist for Godzilla and role in Roland Emmerich's Godzilla, but also in some Star Trek fan films. He was in Star Trek Farragut and Star Trek Phase 2, where he played Captain Pike. And as if that wasn't but enough, he also played a Predator in Batman Dead End, a fan film that burned a permanent mark on my brain when I saw
Batman Fan Film and Star Trek Memories
00:02:18
Speaker
it. And I could talk about that for an hour, but go check that out on YouTube if you haven't seen it. It's basically, bat what if Batman encountered the predator while chasing the Joker? It's really cool. And then Jim Newman is the co-creator of the Go Fact Yourself podcast, which has featured Trek actors such as Walter Koenig,
00:02:36
Speaker
and a visitor and Denise Crosby. He's an animation writer, having written for Casper, Tunesylvania, and Megababies. Don't look that one up though, he says. And he wrote for the NPR show, Ask Me Another. And he's a member of the winning this team in the world's largest trivia contest, Bob, Kurt, and Jim, welcome. Thank you very much. Thanks for having us. Yes, thank you. Thank you. It's great to have you all, especially a predator, but also especially a trivia master and an animation writer who, you know, foundational text for for my upbringing. I want to ask you how each of you got into Star Trek, but Jim, let's start with you. I was born in 1965.
00:03:15
Speaker
So there is not a period in my life where Star Trek was not on. I was seeing it first run primetime because my older sister and my grandfather who lived with us were fans. So I know that at some point coming up, you'll be asking me when I first saw this episode. And the answer is I have no idea. It's always been a part of my life. Fair enough. ah Bob, how about you? Well, if you're asking about Star Trek in general, I was born in 1961 and I was five years old when Star Trek came on around that same age, around the same time a lost in space came on. And I have to say I was more of a lost in space kid because um
00:03:56
Speaker
Lost in Space was very spooky. It was in black and white. They would go to these planets where they would find all kinds of you know strange ruins, where there'd be monsters. and um And that was scary enough for me. Everything about Star Trek was too scary. you know um When they would have things like Blalock or the Magatu, that was just way too scary for me. so um I watched a few episodes when I was a kid, when it was first on. And this episode in particular seems to have always been ingrained in my memory because of the image of Val. But I really became a Star Trek fan in 1975 when it was in syndication and I was 14 years old. And that's when um I saw this side of Paradise. And after that episode, it's like I was just hooked for life.
00:04:48
Speaker
That's great. All right. that Kurt, what about you? How did you get into it? um I've kind of i've always been aware of Star Trek much like Flint. I am very old. And so I have been around Star Trek a long time. I remember watching it barely as a child first run, like third season stuff. But it was really hard to stay up till 10 o'clock, past 10 o'clock. But I do remember. ah watching original series Star Trek. And probably the first time I really came aware of this episode was probably when it went into syndication where I came from like 72, 71, 72, maybe something like that. Like at four o'clock in the afternoon on a cold October day after school.
00:05:41
Speaker
So we are talking about the Apple this
Exploring Star Trek Episode 'The Apple'
00:05:43
Speaker
week. It's the fifth episode from the second season of the original series. It's the ninth produced. It premiered on NBC, October 13th, 1967, teleplay by Max Ehrlich with Jean L. Kuhn from a story by Ehrlich ah directed by Joseph Peveney. Memory Alpha describes it. The Enterprise crew discovers an Eden-like paradise on Gamma Trianguli-6 controlled by a machine that is revered by the local humanoid primitives as a god. What memory Alpha does not tell you is that this is a redshirt bloodbath and we will definitely be talking about that in a second. ah So yes, that I did definitely want to ask if everyone remembers the first time they saw this. It sounds like everyone has like a foggy notion of seeing it pretty much around the time in their youth when they were Star Trek fans. my Same for me. I think I saw this though before I was
00:06:33
Speaker
jumped in firmly as a Star Trek fan. It might have been on when I went over to a friend's house for a sleepover. His dad might have been watching it because I absolutely remember the vol statue and the phaser fire and all that stuff. and But I also remember the lightning strike and the dude getting blown up and stuff like that. It's a pretty intense episode. There's quite a lot going on, a lot of incident in this one. My early memories of this are conflated with early memories of the time machine. Oh. okay because I saw the Time Machine as a very young child at a movie theater. But when you think about this episode, it's essentially the Time Machine minus the time travel and minus the Morlocks. It's been really, it's the Eloi and their sort of God statue thing. and ah And so I really have early conflated memories of the two of like, which one is this?
00:07:28
Speaker
Uh, I mean, this one definitely has some very strange looking painted people for sure. Uh, with down HD, you can tell quite a lot of shoulder hair, uh, that I had noticed and, uh, back hair that I hadn't noticed before. Uh, but this episode really cements that trope that the red shirts always die. Uh, a trope that's, you know, existed in pop culture for years and years there, uh, John Scalzi wrote a novel about redshirts that was briefly going to be turned into an FX miniseries, but like it's it's a thing. Every redshirt in this one, save one, ah dies. And let's talk about that. what Was this something as you were watching it that you were like, this always happens? Well, first of all, um it's it's fun to note, it takes two beam downs to get them all down there.
00:08:17
Speaker
like there were like Like we need such a high body count in this episode. It's like, beam down some more. The other thing is, um I read somewhere that statistically speaking, you're more likely to die in a Star Trek episode if you're wearing a gold shirt than a red shirt. So yeah, but I don't mean to dispel you know the whole red shirt thing. But here's the here's the thing about this episode that is very strange to me. Yeah, you have all these red shirts there and every single red shirt who isn't Celeste Yarnell dies. but Why are there red shirts there at all? Why aren't they the blue shirts? Why aren't they the science people who are down there to investigate the planet? Why do they have these security people or you know service people or whatever, engineers or whatever it is that the red shirts do? Why aren't they why aren't they blue shirts?
00:09:05
Speaker
Right, because the mission is go investigate this planet that the scout ship picked up and has weird readings. So you would think that they'd be like, well, it's on the science team to check it out. But I guess they already also knew that there were inhabitants, I think Kirk mentioned. So in some sense, it makes sense that they would have some security. But you're right, there are except for McCoy and Spock, no other like scientifically minded people. I guess Chekov also he's this is studying under under spot episode and early on. Chekov was established as basically a junior science officer. Yes. So they do have some science people, but you're right. An inordinate number of red shirts, for sure.
00:09:45
Speaker
Well, keep in mind that they are beaming down to investigate these people, but they beamed down a 10-mile hike away. So they need to bring people who are in good shape. It's wonderful that you had so many red shirts buying it, and so many of them, and in like, like no no two the same way, you know? That's right. It's like, we blew one up, we got one, you know, hit over the head with a giant fork, we um we got one hit by lightning, we got we got that my favorite, of course. you know, the killer the killer darts. The poisoned plant darts, yeah. The poisoned plant darts. That's one of the the great things in this episode, one of the great takeaways is because that's that they know but's that is pure Star Trek.
00:10:29
Speaker
Well, the whole concept is really kind of, you know, the enterprise rolls up on a planet that's being controlled by this God and they have to negotiate with that in some way. The enterprise is helpless in orbit, trapped by its power. But then, yeah, on the planet, you've got some very goofy stuff going on. That's also very real and intense. It's given any sort of reality
Celeste Yarnell's Role and Career
00:10:49
Speaker
to it because Shatner and Nimoy are so good of like making you believe this is actually happening, even though it is some of the most ridiculous shit you'll ever see. in this episode in particular. The one thing in the episode that I think ages the most poorly, and I'm sure you'll find other things that are even more ridiculous, but when they pick up the rock and you can hear Leonard Nimoy's fingers playing over it, it only sounds like styrofoam. That's right. And you know the way he snaps it and it's like it's like that is just screaming styrofoam.
00:11:21
Speaker
and the way it's painted. um And i also, I absolutely love the way he tosses off that one piece, you know, and and it and it blows up. It's like, this is not something you'd normally see Spock do, but the casually way he just casts it off. just to make sure it got an appropriate distance before it blew up. fantastic Yeah, absolutely fantastic. um So just a couple of other things before we get into the grade. So Celeste Yarnell, we already mentioned, Yeoman Landon, she was 23 at the time. and This is all coming from Mark Cushman's book, These Are the Voyages, ah Star Trek, the original series season two, which I
00:11:58
Speaker
quote from from a lot of the time because i I didn't grow up during this period. I didn't know a lot of this stuff, but she was a spokesmodel for Reingold Beer. She was the very last Miss Reingold. And then after that, she did a bunch of TV, including an Elvis movie. ah She did this movie, Eve. And and in 1968, the Hollywood Foreign Press voted her Beauty of the Year at the Cannes Film Festival. And then I guess there was their version of cine CinemaCon in 1960s. She was named the most promising, well, they probably would have said it this way, most promising new star of 1968 by the National Association of Theater Owners. And she basically acted up until 2007. She was in that Snoop Dogg movie where he got all the old Star Trek actors together. So she did some like fan film stuff afterwards, but ah you know that that's Celeste Yarnell, a very photogenic young woman in this episode as
00:12:51
Speaker
Yeoman Landon, but also really kind of weirdly Chekhov's love interest and she was totally vibing with him So great acting performance. She was the actual age that Chekhov was supposed to be age appropriate. She also got to kick ass. Oh, it's great. There's a scene with in the fight scene, I think we get to see her fell more people than anybody else. So at least they didn't, you know, it's like she wasn't grabbed from behind and Chekhov comes in. I mean, she totally, you know, holds her own in that fight. I also have a ah strange connection with the with her in that, as I was sitting in my orthopedic surgeons, ah
00:13:28
Speaker
room waiting for an exam. ah One of her autographed photos was on the wall. I was like, oh, okay. So, you know, that's, that's all I got. that Hey, that's something. ah She was pleased to be working on Star Trek. She was, they were basically like, well, do you want to do this part or do you want to do something bigger down the road, something more exotic? We'll find another part. She said, something bigger may never come. And working with an actor of the quality of Bill Shatner was appealing. I mean, he was in the Dostoevsky story, The Brothers Karazimov. Karamazov, excuse me, he is a very good actor. And in the script, I get to carry a weapon. I'm in the fight scene. I'm the romantic interests of Chekhov and I'm the sex education teacher of that planet. So I said, of course I want to do it. And then she, her dress, she thought should have been taken up a little bit more. Cause she had just come back from Europe and she was telling Bill Tyson, the costumers, like they wear short, short skirts there in 1968. So they cut it.
00:14:21
Speaker
And before they did though, one of the costumers was like, are you sure she might come back? And Bill Tice said she will never come back. And it was Grace Lee Whitney's skirt that they were taking up that Yeoman Landon is wearing. And we've talked about Grace Lee Whitney and everything that happened to her on the show previously. But you know, Hollywood's a brutal business sometimes. ah so Well, you know, when I was watching her in this episode, all I could think of was, why didn't they make her a regular? I mean, she really pops. She's really beautiful. She just, she feels right for this world. I i wish they had just sort of
00:14:56
Speaker
and her character, just giving her just, you know, different things to do and different episodes. i I think you're right, but also she's probably the whole time she's shooting like, I got that Elvis audition next week. So Elvis but Presley movie audition next week, so. Yeah, her people are like, do you want to do another Star Trek or do you want to do a global picture? Yeah, exactly. She was also in a very in
Writing Challenges and Prime Directive Discussion
00:15:19
Speaker
I don't know. I don't remember the title. You can look it up. She was also in a ah really strange vampire movie from the early 70s. It was ah it was set in a desert and it's kind of like almost um this weird menager toil kind of thing going on.
00:15:33
Speaker
And it's a really, it's a very interesting movie. So um I recommend looking it up. One other thing from Cushman's book, it's actually two parts. This was a really tough episode to write. It was a real struggle with Max Ehrlich. He didn't really know the show. DC Fontana the whole time was pushing back on how much this one resembled Return of the Archons. But then as they kept revising it, she's like, still resembles Return of the Archons, fellas. But now you've added in more who mourns for Adnaeus, which I think is funny. ah So if you're out there listening and you're curious, you should get these books, mainly because he's copy and pasting a lot of the memos. He has his own commentary mixed in there. But it's a really interesting look about ah the production of the show.
00:16:16
Speaker
But then in this 21 page letter that Gene Kuhn wrote Max Ehrlich while they were, you know, they didn't have email. They didn't do video conferencing, so they wrote letters and memos. I will not read the whole thing, but I do want to mention this. Max, I don't know if I ever gave you several copies of Star Trek scripts to read. I must say that you have substantially missed the characterizations and indeed missed the spirit of the dialogue of our people. Incidentally, this isn't a landing party from Earth. We are not from Earth. Our home port may be Earth. And in fact, the enterprise was built in San Francisco be before being assembled in space. But we do not come from Earth. We are from the United Federation of Planets.
00:16:52
Speaker
As I told you at the very beginning, you will never write a more difficult show in your life than Star Trek. It is immensely difficult to write. Every point has to be logically perfect. I bring it up now because I think those notes resonate throughout time. I think that is exactly still the case even today for what Star Trek is and I think this ah actually gives the 2009 movie criticism of the enterprise being built on Earth, even more credence. Here's something in the record. This was not something they didn't know. They knew it at the time. So anyway, so everything they got wrong in that movie, but in in all of those movies, they got wrong because it would look cool. Yes. So so so so seeing the image of the enterprise under construction was so goddamn cool, especially when you had Kirk looking at it
00:17:43
Speaker
you know, like seeing his destiny. And so it's like, oh, we gotta, it's like having the enterprise come out from underneath the ocean in this- That is all, wouldn't it be cool? Wouldn't that be cool? And there's absolutely literally no reason for the enterprise to be under that ocean whatsoever. But it's like, hey, that would look really cool. And it's cool that the Grand Canyon is in Iowa.
00:18:12
Speaker
Well, they quarried a second Grand Canyon. It's the future. We just went around that movie instead of talking about the apple. as we'll give you three We'll give you three episodes. That's it. All right. Let's get into the grades then and we'll start with great scenes. Let's start with Kurt. like What did you think was your first great scene in the episode? but Well, you know when somebody dies, it's always, Kurt, really? Kirk gets really affected whenever a crew member dies. you know And so that's that's the first one that came to mind. That's not the most important one. I knew his father. is it I knew his family. His father got me into Starfleet. That's right. But probably, yeah, right off the bat, when ah when the flower from you know Day of the Triffids comes and gets him.
00:19:03
Speaker
ah That was probably the ah the first scene that really got me, yes. Bob, what about you? My favorite scene in it actually is the scene where they talk about the non-interference directive. So I think this might be, if it's not the first prime directive story, it's certainly so early that they didn't even have the phrase prime directive. But the conversation that they have is really, it's really wonderful because it encapsulates the difference between Kirk Spock and McCoy. Everyone is doing perfectly what their role is. so
00:19:35
Speaker
McCoy is arguing from a very humanist point of view why what's going on is completely wrong because the people are enslaved and they're being held in stasis and meanwhile Spock is like but they've reached equilibrium. Everything here you know they think they have this perfect balance so it works for them and it's worked for maybe thousands of years to which McCoy replies that's exactly why it doesn't work because they're they's stagnant and then you have Kirk who has to figure out the synthesis between these two points of view and What the prime directive was there to do in the original Star Trek was it would be there to help the story along.
00:20:13
Speaker
to make Kirk have to break something in order to make something good happen. So we every time the Prime Directive was invoked, we had to break it, as opposed to next generation. Whenever they brought up the Prime Directive, it was precisely so that Picard would have a reason to he'd have an excuse not to do anything. And so we there would impede the story. So this was this was an example, a really great example of the Prime Directive and, you know, how it how it creates debate, and this is a great example of this, like, okay, well, would it have been really bad to leave these people ah in this state of perfect equilibrium, or, you know, is it better to give them free will and the ability to evolve? So anyway, I love that scene, and I love how they use the prime directive in it. Jim. For me, I guess it's...
00:21:05
Speaker
the first scene and all the scenes on the Enterprise. Because seeing Scotty, seeing the bridge, that's the reminder that this is an episode of Star Trek and not an episode of Gilligan's Island. yeah And ah it goes also to Scotty's competence, because Kirk is like, did you try this? Did you try that? And and Scotty's like, yes, done it, already tried. you know Everything that Kirk suggests Scotty try, he's like, yes, we already did it. And so he clearly knows what he's doing. And I love any scene where they get under the hood, where they they're working underneath the consoles of of the bridge. And that's happening in the background all the time, and I love it.
00:21:48
Speaker
That's all right, Scotty's pointing you there, you there. Well, they're just while he's talking to them, they're like they're on their stomachs working in the the you know in those grates underneath. What's also great about those scenes is that it shows the wonderful relationship between Scotty and Kirk, we're where where Kirk knows he can rely on Scotty. And even though the planet the yeah the planet is about to to suck the enterprise down into it and burn it up, he still knows that Scotty is going to pull this out. And the relationship is so good that they can basically joke during it where it's like, if you we need you. If you don't do this, you're fired.
00:22:31
Speaker
just it's it's it's it's in know and then you know so So this is the episode where Scotty gets fired and then gets rehired. I don't know how I felt about that, even to this day. When I first saw it and rewatched it over time, I still thought it was like a weird wonky. There was like a lot of... ah ah effort in this episode. I think all those Scotty scenes, like you said, to remind us we're in an episode of Star Trek. But there's a lot of other stuff, the way they speak. The dialogue is very rich in the episode. I appreciated that.
Character Moments and Comedic Elements
00:23:00
Speaker
But they're constantly trying to ground it in how people talk in that time to make it seem real. and so like But then the firing part of this, I was like, this feels very toothless. who's going to but We don't see the guy who's going to take over.
00:23:13
Speaker
You know what I mean? Like Spock. Kirk's not being like, put O'Hara in charge. I'd rather she deal with this if you can't do it. Well, when he says you're fired, he's not, you know, I mean, it's obviously a playful thing. He's not actually saying be so. At least the first time he's like, Scotty, you know the ship better than the people who built it. If you can't figure this out, you're fired. But the way Shatner's delivering it is honestly. the men who built yes thank you uh that's correct i my brain was doing the own editing there i'm like come on uh but there you know i credit dirt with that he's the one that pointed that out fair enough that even ban and men built the enterprise with their bare hands not a robot or computer in sight
00:23:55
Speaker
um so i don't know that was goofy but so for me that i struggled with that because there were like you've all named like great moments and i like to think of like a scene as being its own dramatic piece but all that said for me the first great scene was the fight scene which is great It was they all got to fight and it was really cool. I think the fact that yeah Yeoman Landon, who at that point was kind of more ah just a damsel, like she just kicked ass. They all kicked in ass. Kirk kicked ass the whole episode. It was great. I like that. I like the scene where they realize, hey, if we can force Vol to have to play defense a lot, it'll get tired and we can free the ship. So just a long phaser streak. I like that scene. That was a great scene. And then the last great scene when it's
00:24:39
Speaker
the encapsulation, Bob, of your great scene where it's Kirk Spock and McCoy on the enterprise and Spock's literally saying, I don't think we did the right thing, guys. I think we messed up. And then they bring up the Adam and Eve story. And then Kirk's like, are you calling me Satan? Because out of all the people on the enterprise who looks like Satan, it's not me. And they they walk around Spock and I thought this is one of the all time great tags, you know, that That is one of the all-time wonderful great tags, because it's ah it's it's just ah it's a great burn-on Spock. And I loved all the all the extra crew members walking by. They had to like, peel themselves against the wall to get by the, you know, the... freely check I'm not moving.
00:25:23
Speaker
When it starts, Kirk is just randomly climbing up a ladder. Yeah, well he's checking to see if Scotty's been fixing the ship. just All those circuits got burned out. And Brian, I have to point out that your first great scene happens about two thirds through the episode. That's a long way for you. Yes. well no not this When I say that, though, it doesn't mean I wasn't enjoying any part of it or was like slugging through just like there were just so many. It was so incident. You know, you've heard that thing about writing a and then this happens and then this happens and then this happens.
00:26:00
Speaker
and better drama as this happens, but then this happens, therefore this happens. And this just felt like a lot of incident, especially since they had to keep killing all the red shirts off. The episode also features one of the great fight moments of all time. It's unique in Star Trek, where someone is scoping them out, they're spying on them, and Kirk gets the jump on them and punches him in the face, and the guy starts crying. Yes. That's wonderful. Yeah. It is wonderful. It's not something you often see in Star Trek or ever will see again. I mean, could you imagine if he, you know, he be he punches, you know.
00:26:38
Speaker
conhanloyd's character in in in star trek three and he's
00:26:47
Speaker
it's It's fantastic there's all these nice little beats I just feel like it was we're just trying to figure out what it was about even right up until shooting because the scene you laid out Bob I liked it I have it Well, let's just get in the best Trek tropes. That was one um unless there's another great scene someone wants to point out. But I have is one of the best Trek tropes where they're talking about non interference as a concept. There's like some good concepts in here, but as a dramatic story, it never quite meshes. It kind of feels like they come into the.
00:27:18
Speaker
the the growth first stasis of this culture kind of late into the story. And I understand that's because they're still trying to figure out what's going on. But now I can't remember Jim, was it you who said like, but they beamed 10 miles away from the encampment. So like, the story like physically starts very far away from what it's about. And so it's like, there's a lot of elements in it that I'm like, dramatically, is it as interesting as it could have been versus what it like kind of winds up being about? I don't think they quite get there. So And I said 10 miles, I converted from 17 kilometers, they which is amazing. They say that right after Spock says that it's 78 degrees on the planet year round. So it's like, are they in the metric system or not? I don't know.
00:28:03
Speaker
They're not even sure. But that that was one of my first Trek tropes, but um let's Kurt, what about you? What's a Trek trope you want to throw out there? Well, Spock doing a little comedy. You know, Spock is pretty good at comedy when the young lady is putting a wrist corsage on him and he says, like, it's making me uncomfortable. ah ah Or just the way he said his name. My name is Spock. And they laugh at him. ah And ah so ah to me, that's that's a that would be my Star Trek trope. Why are they laughing at his name? They just think it sounds silly because they they they don't even know what love is or child. So just sounds sound you don't get to laugh at someone because their name is Spock. You don't get to. they yeah They don't know that Spock reaches even. You know what I mean? They don't. You know, in a different world, Spock would reach them. But, you know,
00:28:53
Speaker
<unk> There's a lot of great Spock humor in this. There's the part where Spock, you know, he he he almost dies saving Kirk. And Kirk is like, do you know how much Starfleet has invested in you? And he starts rattling off the number. yeah i Yeah, I had that as Spock answering rhetorical questions with data. yeah Yes. And I think some people think that 122,200 that he starts to quote might be some sort of cost, but I'm pretty sure he's quoting like teaching hours. That's my my theory of like he's been instructed. this he now is Now, I thought it was k Quatlu.
00:29:29
Speaker
yeah He was converting, yes, exactly. But ah Kurt, I have your what you said is like sassy Spock, because along those same lines earlier when he gets zapped by the force field, ah Kirk says, a force field? And he goes, obviously. And then they cut to ah check off and land in looking at each other going, like, Spock's so funny. Like, they really do that cutaway. It's great. yeah So I love sassy Spock. It's why in Strange New World sometimes when you hear them talk about him or how he's portrayed and I like Ethan pecks portrayal of that Spock just great. It's like they did forget that no, Nimoy made him a very sassy like a cat. Like he's a very funny character. Yeah, he talks about Dr. McCoy's, you know, oceans like it's turning my stomach, you know. so ah Jim, what about you? Any trick tropes you want to throw on the pile here?
00:30:21
Speaker
Well, first of all, a criticism of the format of your podcast is that I do not recognize the difference between good trek tropes and bad trek tropes. Oh, good one. Because i some people, it might just be very clear like this episode is going to be bad or good. But was it a best trek trope in the service of how you felt about this episode ultimately? I understand. I totally understand what you're going for. But for you, you're like, they're all great. No, it's from all people. Great or terrible, they're equal. Well, that's the thing, isn't it Jim? But my name is Dr. Spock. It's the indestructibility of Mr. Spock.
00:31:02
Speaker
he you know He gets zapped by the plant and falls down and then just gets up. you know ah It's just killed someone else. Then he gets He gets hit by lightning. No, there's more, there's more. he So he just falls down. McCoy gives him an injection of we don't know what and says that, it you know, if not for his green blood, the injection would infect him one way. But he doesn't say that ah the green blood saved him from the plant or anything. He just brushes it off and he's fine. And then, ah yeah, he's he gets zapped by the ah
00:31:40
Speaker
the Northfield. Yes. And then he gets struck by lightning by the same lighting that disintegrated someone.
00:31:55
Speaker
And I'm beginning, I'm beginning to think that Spock has a third eyelid on his chest and on his back. so So he just like he's indestructible, nothing. Kids today call it plot armor, but back in the 60s, it was just an inner island. Well, that's the thing is he he gets hit by lightning. he gets a He gets a second degree burn, which that sounds like something you'd want to treat, right? And yet McCoy just like, oh, you got a second degree burn. That must really sting. Rub some dirt on it and get back out there. talking fucking ah He did have a 23rd century black undergarment under that.
00:32:39
Speaker
So i I'm fine with some of the other guy who disintegrated yeah on the top of his head. Maybe that's the difference. He did not. The guy who got killed did not go to the PX and get that black undergarment. That's right. In the very beginning of the episode, this guy gets shot in the chest and Kirk is like, so did someone say this was paradise and then you had the dramatic sting and you you and then they go back and it's kind of like you know they're just like okay and let's look at the planet oh look and scottie's like hey i could do with a walk why don't i you know i i like to go down to paradise and it's like um guys um someone just got killed and also
00:33:25
Speaker
I mean, i hate to I hate to use the reality fallacy and and use real-world logic on a science fiction show, but if someone gets shot in the chest and dies, don't you call up for a couple of bulletproof vests? me Yeah, right. Just any sort of protection, really. You go on a 10-mile hike and you say, I hope that's the only plant like that.
00:33:51
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, the the landing party rules are very sloppy, for sure. But I do want to talk about the time where Spock shoves Kirk out of the way and takes the the poison darts to the chest. I'm putting that as a best trick joke, because that's clearly a sign of spark. Spock, Kirk, slash Vic love, because Kirk is so angry at him. He's so mad that Spock would jeopardize his own life. And and you can just tell how much they love each other, because he ultimately goes, but thanks. And I just thought it was nice. nice Yeah, Kirk, like you're not going to call him a stiff neck fissile head, are you? no he's not I think I think it goes more towards Spock being suicidal, which he always was.
00:34:33
Speaker
I love that about Spock because for him, like the knowledge, the learning learning is worth the jeopardy. You know, it's suicidal because like, I always think about the Veeger moment. It's such a perfect Spock moment. I'm like, wow, way to recapture the series because Spock's always sticking his hands where he probably should. but and Here's another example. I think that's a great one. Another one I had was but You already said this though Jim, I think where Kirk cares so much about losing his crew members, something that 100% has gotten lost with pop culture. But you know you know, a walk in paradise among the green grass and the flowers, we should have beamed up at the first sign of trouble, but my damn orders, you know, but he he cares so much about losing a crew member. I think that's great.
00:35:19
Speaker
um which something the red shirts book now that i've mentioned that is definitely not factored in like they they kind of say that it's all lip service and the captain's not really sincere about it and i think that's questionable anyway well he only cared about the first one in this episode fair enough yeah they they they die in declining order of importance The last one who gets killed, though, the one who gets brained, that's the one that's the the dumbest of all of them. He's he should have been one of the last ones standing. He shouldn't have allowed them to get the jump on him. He's the one that's supposed to be guarding who's left. He should have taken his job more seriously. Not like it's true. That's true. he you know He got killed by a giant fork to explain that to his parents.
00:36:02
Speaker
You know, here's the thing, talking about the tropes, um McCoy injects Spock, and Spock says, ah you know, like your elixir does what they always do, it's turning my stomach. and um there's there's McCoy has some comeback to that. And it always comes back to, you know, well, if you didn't have green blood, you green-blooded pointy-eared. which but It's one of my favorite tropes in Star Trek, the original series, they never did this again, is McCoy's casual racism. Peaceful. They do casual racism throughout Star Trek, for sure. No, no, no, that's a good trick. here But his, but like, is there a chance that's on the enterprise? I mean, you can imagine Macaulay would have such a problem in there. And imagine if he talked to other people that way.
00:36:50
Speaker
You green-blooded, you yellow-skinned, you, I mean, I just, I just, I imagine Ohura turning around and going, oh, don't you even? No, she just sits there and looks, stares at him, waiting for him to say. That's right. She's like, where did you say your great-great-great-grandfather was from again? I'll let you out on this one. I'm sure Ohura many times, you know, turned back to her console on the bridge and just rolled her eyes like right out the back of her head.
00:37:21
Speaker
A couple of other best trick tropes. I mean, I love, it's just kind of funny to imagine how horny the writers were, but the crew being preoccupied with sex and or trying to explain it to aliens that don't understand what love is or children are. And you know, of course the the damsel being the one the one who's in love being most excited about it. But when a man and woman fall in love, oh yes, the holding, the touching. Val has forbidden this. like And McCoy rolling his eyes going, well, there goes Paradise. I mean, these are just some whole horny middle-aged men and writing this. It's pretty great. It's shocking that Roddenberry himself did not write it.
00:38:04
Speaker
ah Sometimes the two jeans, their wires do cross. There's like a weird crossover sometimes with that. I think Jean Kuhn seems to be more like wanting it, and ah Roddenberry kind of seemed to act more that he was ode it, and that was the difference between the two of them. Well, Roddenberry was a cop, so that's to be based, what fits there. Bob, what were you saying? We're talking about, you know, the touching and replacements. One of my favorite Star Trek tropes is when people like the alien terminology for things they don't know it's kinda like.
00:38:41
Speaker
in the before times. So talking about, you know, like they don't know what sex is, so it's like, oh yes, the holding, the touching. i just I eat that stuff up. it's it's like Let's get into some worse trek tropes. I only have a couple, but we'll start with Jim. I know you love them all, but maybe there's one that worked less well for you this time around. Well, I guess, For me, it's just shooting the bad computer at the end. At least. Didn't I do just two episodes before with a god? Yes. I mean, at least force it to recite the number in pi or something. you know you know At the end, they're just like, well, we'll just shoot it. And so that's what they do. And you know it's happened in a number of episodes. but ah
00:39:37
Speaker
You know, it's always preferable when they find something a better way to make itself destruct or do something, ah even though probably a lot of people think that that's a bad trope. It's still better than just, well, let's shoot it. Well, you know, Patrick Magooan destroyed a computer just by asking it why. Is that the ending of The Prisoner? I've never made it to the end. No, no, no. That's not the end of The Prisoner. its At the end of one episode, there's one episode where everyone is speed learning because a computer is you know putting all kinds of information in people's heads. and And number six decides, you know well, this isn't a good thing. you know and And basically, it's like, OK, well, you can tell us all this stuff, but can you tell us why? and that just like Because the computer is literally mind equals blown.
00:40:23
Speaker
Uh, about the phasering at the end of Ferval, I, I didn't get into this, but I kind of thought that the episode might've worked, but I like Spock's conundrum at the end. He's like, I don't think we did the right thing. And I don't know if I think they want to just linger in the question, but if you were to do some version of this episode today. I kind of feel like this the way through is to do, well, we need to save our ship. So we're going to short circuit vol, and then we're going to give you the choice. You can fix vol with the tools we give you, or you can go on you could try to do it go on your own or something like that.
00:40:54
Speaker
That was the only thing I thought about because your point about that all they did was phaser it and that's how they won. I think what was missing was like, okay, Kirk's making that decision because they just need to save the enterprise. And then what should have been left after that is a choice. So that's what kind of makes the phasering less interesting. I agree with you. Bob, did you have any other worst trick tropes? Any trope is like it's a neutral thing. So and it's like the best is the worst and the worst is the
Tropes and Sci-Fi Elements in 'The Apple'
00:41:23
Speaker
best. So, you know, here's here's one, the useless transporter. It's like, it's like okay I mean, you know, for a story like this, it's like, okay, we have to have our guys stranded. So as happens a lot in the original series, that transporter can't help us. So we're stuck where we are.
00:41:41
Speaker
Yeah. They do that so much, I'm like, OK, then they just ignore the shuttle. And I'm fine with, I'm actually you fine sometimes when shows just ignore maybe an obvious solution instead of trying to spend paid real estate explaining why they can't do it. I'm like, that's fine, move on. But the the other time, and maybe not in this one, but in certain episodes, shouldn't it just be that the enterprise has to move far enough away then that the transporter can't become, can't be used? Like it's enough that the landing party is stranded sometimes. And the enterprise being in danger, I guess, is just a network note. But there's also that version of, like, how are we going to get to our people? We can't beam them up, because if we get too close to the planet, we'll get pulled down into it. So I don't know. Well, here's here's my here's my solution is um they have their shields up because of what's happening to the enterprise. And because shields are up, they can't use the transporter. and Another great thing, yeah. And also, um yeah, i'm i I am a very big advocate of forgetting that they have the Galileo or any of the other shuttles.
00:42:40
Speaker
yeah um I always thought it was silly when they have episodes like, okay, I just listened to the podcast about um the enemy within. And it's like, well, you know, you get these guys stuck on the planet freezing to death. Why didn't they use the shuttle? It's like, well, they hadn't made it up yet. I mean, something's not part of a series yet. You can't have people rely on it. Yeah, it's still it's still silly to think about, like, there's no other way to get off the ship. Like, you know what I mean? There's only one. The transporter was the only way, but that was the conceit. So you're right there. Hey, don't forget, this is a series where when you're on the bridge, the only way to get off is that it's one elevator. I like to imagine there was somehow some another turbolift just next to Spock station.
00:43:25
Speaker
even though they would pan the bridge sometimes. Well, at least a trap door with a ladder. That's true, even in the enterprise the Enterprise-E wound up having one of those. ah Kurt, did you have any more strict troops? Making stuff up ah that we've never heard of because they're in the future. um Scotty ah talks about the Whartham units ah that are hitting. and And when I watched the episode yesterday, a couple of days ago with Jim, Jim was like, what's Whartham units? What's that? And and also, you know, like when Spark would say, like, you know, Hitler, Napoleon, Lee Kwan. I love when they do that. That's one of my favorite texture. So two normal things in the science fiction. thing they Yeah, like he's won the Cro-Magnon, Zig-Magni prizes or something like that. what But and I will we love it because, you know, it's I actually did a lot of research trying to figure out who Wertham is.
00:44:27
Speaker
like who was working on the Desilu lot named Wortham. at the time that they just gave this energy unit name to. And I have so far come up with nothing. I so wanted to make news on this podcast and discover something new. And I have failed breaking it. The Cushman book will very often quote from the memos from the science advisor. And I'm kind of just scrubbing through here. I guess if I had it on my computer, I could control it. It might be in there.
00:44:59
Speaker
I don't think it is. I don't think it is. Because Kurt's read all of that. I could have missed it, but I don't think it's in there. i Go ahead, Bob. It's another Trek trope. It's like, okay, the sky is red in this episode. Sometimes it's orange. Sometimes it's, you know, ah yellow. like Okay, you have to have the sky a different color to tell people this is a science fiction show. We're on a different planet. like I get it. Except if the sky is a different color, color. Doesn't that mean it's it's a different atmosphere, like it has different components that we might not be able to breathe? Yeah. ah They it' just, I think that's like very much, they don't know. They just want to make it look alien and interesting, but I think that's great. Also, like when the lightning goes off, you can see it hitting the the painted back wall, which is not something I really paid attention to instead of, you know, it's just like, oh, it's the light on a wall. That's funny.
00:46:04
Speaker
ah Mine was was along your curtain gym about the worth of units. The science really is in this episode all over the map about what, you know, but the ship can't detect the force field and then it kind of can. The life readings are sporadic. And the the only thing that to me as a Star Trek nerd that they got like very clear is like, yes, the anti-matter pods being drained creates a whole host of problems. Because that's the the and matter, anti-matter, the warp drive is how all the magic in Star Trek happens. Powers everything. And when you don't have the antimatter, then you don't have the magic. So that made sense to me. And then I put as a worst trek trope, but now i gotta to I'm moving it back up to best trek tropes. All the redshirt jets, because these were all very cool.
00:46:47
Speaker
Even but though it was a it was the definition of gratuitous, they were all really distinct and and memorable. I don't think they were actually um gratuitous. I mean, every one of them every one of those deaths actually did move the plot along. Just in terms of what can all do? I just love the fact that they beamed down enough people to to die. Well, again, that was plot armor for those days. It's just the body can't get them up there. Get enough. Well, and the first lightning strike is pretty gratuitous because Val isn't really mad at them yet. Yes. But suddenly there's a lightning strike and somebody disintegrates.
00:47:26
Speaker
It's gratuitous in the sense of when Chekhov and Landon kind of sneak off and do their own making out, like halfway through the episode or two thirds of the way through, like the lightning should have struck at them for, you know, being, you know, being mad and all, it doesn't happen. Anyway, most of it's time quality. Let's start with Bob. So this one is just like, what is the most 1968 element of this one that you can pick out? Or they don't make them like that anymore. It's the it's the treatment of women for comedy. When ah when Landon is is basically saying, you know well, how are these people going to
00:48:01
Speaker
you know, be fruitful and multiply when they don't know how to fuck. She's basically, you know, these people don't understand sex. And yeah the music plays it for laughs. And you cut to the other guys who were like kind of embarrassed, like, like, well, you explain it, Spock. And it's kind of like, they're they're they're treating her like she doesn't understand how people procreate. But she's saying these people don't know how to procreate. And for some reason, it becomes funny and embarrassing for Spock to finally say, well, the computer will explain it to them, which is pretty much to be expected. I mean, yeah, of kind but of course that's how they would do it. But they play her for laughs when she's actually trying to contribute to the conversation. And this is a scene that starts out where she's walking around basically you know throwing a hissy going, I can't believe they're going to kill our our our ship. This is tech. Oh, sit down and have an apple. No, that no, no, no. Calm down. Have an apple. And by the way, they many apples are eaten in this episode.
00:49:00
Speaker
You know, it's in the title. They were like, yes yeah but I mean, they literally, they literally seated in there where you see Chekhov eating an apple and where you see um Kirk eating an oddly painted apple. But the but you hear this crunch when Chekhov bites into it. It sounds like an apple. and I got to say as an actor, Shatner, is consistent because he eats an apple the same way in this episode as he does in The Wrath of Khan. Exactly the same. It's the Canadian style of apple consumption.
00:49:41
Speaker
that is character Kurt, any ah most of its time qualities you want to throw in here? Makeup. a the makeup, ah you know, like in the paradise syndrome when they come ah across the ah quote unquote Native Americans, you know, okay, but this is like, okay. ah It was like, kind of Donald Trump be orangey ah light around the eyes makeup with the yeah ah Jim and I were discussing the things on their cheeks. Is that makeup applied by them? Is that the way they just are? I was saying that's makeup. But, you know, it's the 60s. It's, you know, like, you know, a free love culture. And so but I was like makeup and the bouffant hairstyles.
00:50:35
Speaker
I'm such a dummy. It really only took until a couple of years ago, or even re even sooner than that, where I could start to understand where the wigs that anyone in Star Trek was wearing, but especially the Starfleet women. It's just like, I always knew there were wigs, but I could never tell where it was. And now it's like, I'm so dumb. My wife was like, that's because you're a man and you just don't know. but I'm like, don't people naturally have hair like that? Anyway, ah Jim. My definition tell has really been taking us a long way down the road for that. Yep, yep. Because I really thought Marina Sertis must have this long, beautiful hair. No, she does. I mean, she has very pretty hair, but it's not like that away from me. I'm sorry, Bob. It was a devastating moment for me as well. Well, Brian, do not tell me that
00:51:26
Speaker
You could not see the wigs on the aliens in this episode. Oh, and this one. I mean, that this one yeah is the whole thing screams because they are a Lego. They're like, things on their head. I was I was still kind of shocked by how Aryan they cast the the these aliens, though, because yes, they're wearing blonde wigs, but they all seemed like pretty fair haired blue eyed people, although I've since
Casting and Production Insights
00:51:52
Speaker
looked at. the are Yeah. ah the the actor who plays Akuta, Keith Andes. Yeah. he He played a lot of Nazis early in his career. I was gonna say he seemed very... Well, but he was usually, I mean, he was sometimes a bad guy, but he was sometimes a good guy because he was really good looking and really well built. And so he would be, you know, it's like,
00:52:16
Speaker
He'd be a member of a family in Germany, but he'd be the one who climbs over the mountains to escape that type of thing. But Jim, Kirk just did always punch a Nazi. Look, he cried. He just did. Exactly.
00:52:33
Speaker
Sorry, keep going. I just want to point that out. i mean It's the iss also in a movie that I really like, black Blackbeard the Pirate. ah it's It's him, it's Granny Clampett, and it's a great character actor named Skelton Nags. ah so Check out Blackbeard the pi Pirate. It's Robert Newton playing Blackbeard. He also played Blackbeard in Blackbeard's Ghost for Disney. um But he's just chewing up the screenplay the whole time. But Keith Andes is the young, good-looking, I think he's an undercover pirate or he's a good guy going undercover as a pirate.
00:53:11
Speaker
Mine was pretty basic, the sprawing sound effect when the poison darts shoot out of the plants. And that's unmistakably of its time. ah ah yeah you Bob, what are you saying? like Yeoman Landon kind of basically damseled until the fight scene, which is why I loved it so much. I'm like, great. they She's a person. It's great. ah Walter Koenig and I read the Cushman book before we started recording, so we read some parts of it and I was like, okay. But Walter Koenig gets very handsy with her, very touchy grabby. And this is a personal, maybe a personal issue for me, but I don't like in film and television when men are constantly grabbing women ah to like pull them over here or this or that. And it happens today and it's not just men grabbing women. Like, I just don't like grabbing in like this very unnatural way. But in this one, Peveny's having
00:54:00
Speaker
Kene literally entered the shot to put his arm around her in certain cases. But reading the book, it turns out that Yarnell had ah ah like an infection on her finger. She got like a bad manicure. And so the litter had her male nail bed removed. So they were trying to mask it in some way. So that explains some of it. But just the touchy feeling of this. But like even Tom Cruise is grabbing Rebecca Ferguson in the new Mission Impossibles or whatever. And it's like, they are playing characters that's like, don't get anywhere near me. I'll kick you. And it's like, I don't think that, that ah you know, that the spies need a lot of handling. It's just a thing that happens in film and TV. But in the 60s, it seems a little more to me about this episode, it's a very early check off episode, and they're still figuring his character out.
00:54:45
Speaker
So we're asked, you know, it's like, okay, well, you know, his big ah trait is that he's very proud to be Russian. And whenever he can hit that Russian note, he hits it hard. and very har But also, I mean, he was the young addition to the cast. And I think they were trying to, you know, it's like, okay, well, let's play with him being a romantic character. Let's play with him. And for this episode, all the physical closeness he was getting with her was in contrast to what it was that the natives there were you know accustomed to. So I think i't you know' it's not something that you see often in Star Trek. You don't see people coming into frame just to grab you know put their arm around somebody.
00:55:27
Speaker
But because they portrayed this couple as as having a kind of an affectionate relationship that is completely counter to what Vaal would allow for these people, um yeah that's that's the point that's the reason it's there. i don't think it's not It is not typical for Star Trek or you know for for this series at all. It's a great point because Kirk is even Kirk is the God or Satan, I guess, but he's the leader of the Enterprise crew. And he actually comments on it. He's like, I know you two are fucking, but now's not the time for a biology experiment here. He even addresses that. So I think that's a great point. Well taken. I really have to put point this out before we move on. I know we're kind of running late here, but
00:56:06
Speaker
the the live explosions on set, that is most of its time. What the hell were the actors doing anywhere near that explosion as a- Currently speak to this, because he's, as ah as a stunt guy, he's dealt with this a lot, and and he also read the book, so. ah Yeah, so then you know the exact story I'm talking about. Kurt, what the hell's going on in here? Yeah, yeah, ah yeah, like they say you can see Shatner like put his hand to his ear like when that goes off and it worsened his tinnitus that he got from arena from getting too close to something going off there. But why were they there when it why didn't that was a cutaway there was like no and celestial said they didn't even get cotton for their ears or anything like that. I'm like what?
00:56:51
Speaker
Why? but This is insane. Oh, these days, they would absolutely be getting earplugs for all that stuff. You're gonna clear the set though. Like what were they doing? fan blow a fan and just have everybody react on a three. like shake the godam camera yeah Absolutely insane what was going on there definitely most of its time. I always think about ah the the Sutherland invasion of the body snatchers and the and the climax when he's in the exploding factory and that's literally Donald Sutherland going along the railing of the the
00:57:28
Speaker
the catwalk and there's nothing supporting in there. I'm like, this is insane. And everything's like catching on fire. A stuntman got like burned by like the explosions. And this was like that, that, you know, just 10 years earlier, they're blowing up stuff with your number one and two on the call sheet, 15 feet away. Nuts. yeah But they had already shot all of his talking scenes before that. So They're like, well, we have the insurance will pay off the rest of the season. Let's see if we get lucky. Also of its time is the one and done girlfriend.
00:58:01
Speaker
And it's, Tran is guilty of it, but every TV series of the time was guilty of it. And sometimes they, she'd be so good that they'd have to kill her at the end because the audience wouldn't accept her not coming back. But there's some, like on My Three Sons, they always have a new girlfriend for the episode, and then they're just gone. And there's no painful breakup, there's no anything, they're just gone. Well, you know, here's the thing is, on My Three Sons, that's kind of, not unforgivable, but that's it's that was that was needless because that was a show that actually had some degree of continuity to it. In a show like Star Trek that is built on not having continuity, as most shows were, um it's like, well, okay, well, you know yeah, we're you know this this is the big episode and we're not gonna see her again. but um But yeah, I think that they in My Three Sons, they could have had, you know I mean, these people seem to have very, very imperfect,
00:58:58
Speaker
impermanent friendships. So they have a couple of friends who will show up for a few episodes, but a lot of people who just come in and leave without any kind of explanation. It's always more expensive to bring people back too, right? So that's probably that's that's probably it too. But yeah, on Star Trek, you know, I mean, yeah, they these were very much standalone episodes. So yeah, the one and done thing is ah very much of its time and very much Great go for series now um makes me wish they had brought Yeoman landing into Star Trek Beyond because they brought in some checkoff stuff the Russian thing which we'll talk about right now in the line must be drawn here great lines
00:59:39
Speaker
So Chekhov's got the, of course, Doctor. The Garden of Eden was just outside Moscow. Very nice place. It must have made Adam and Eve very sad to leave. Thought that was great. I should have put it in a best trek trope. I actually like him having that bit of constantly comparing things to Russia or saying it originated there. I think that's a nice thing. Kurt, what about you? What about some great lines you want to mention? Um, uh, just a little preface. I love it when Scotty's in charge of the enterprise because he takes no crap from anybody when he's captain and when lieutenant Kyle goes up to Spock station to get some readings on the the power drain, uh, and Kyle's got his uh, etch a sketch out and
01:00:22
Speaker
Scotty's talking to Kirk and he's like, hurry up on those things, Kyle. You know, because usually Scotty like he knows everything that's going on. He knows more than the men who built the ship. But but even Scotty got a little impatient, you know, when he's like talking to the captain. So I love that. Jim, you won't like it. But I think when Kirk fires Scotty or threatens Byron, I think it's fantastic. This is clearly a joke. I don't know why you seem to be taking it so seriously. I've never read it that way because I always take Shatner so much on his face when he's playing Kirk that Shatner is not going to deliver a joke
01:01:07
Speaker
in a way that doesn't tell you it's ah it's not it's a joke. like He always is over the top selling a joke. ah you know I've always known that about him. So the idea that he would sell a joke without any twinkle, without any wink, and I don't read it as a twinkle. Maybe you see a twinkle or a wink there. I i totally feel the twinkle. I totally feel the wink. I think Bob's on my side with this one. I can see the point. I will not fight this. All right. If you could like whatever you like, it's great. Okay. He doesn't threaten him ever again, though, and that would have been a fun thing to maybe bring back, especially in season three. It would. Bob, great lines. My favorite line is the little toss away that but McCoy does when it's like when it's very clear they're all not having sex, and it's like,
01:01:55
Speaker
Well, there goes paradise. It treated as a little toss off and it's very funny and charming in its way. But then it that's literally his argument for why they need to get rid of this computer when that these people be people. But um but I love the way that he just delivers the line as a toss away because it its it plays wonderfully as a joke, but it's also important. Right. And he gets a close up when he says it. That's right. right Uh, there's, I think there's a lot of great lines. I think it's a well-written episode dialogue wise. I think the plot's kind of shaggy, sweaty. Uh, I really liked the Spock line. The good doctor was concerned with the aliens achieved true human stature. I submit there is no cause for worry. They've taken the first step they've learned to kill. And I should have put that as a best truck choke because this was how I, this was like one of the only pop culture things shows.
01:02:50
Speaker
But I can recall that it's basically like murder is bad, and it and it cherishes human life or it values life in any way. And I know that's kind of like classic 50s, 60s, 70s TV is like man will destroy himself. I just liked it echoed here and I thought Nimoy giving it the weight that it deserved. um All right, any others? All right, the Anti-Caritian Award for Best Performance. Bob, who are you nominating? And maybe you will be correct, but we'll see. Who do you nominate? You know, this is an episode where nobody gets to chew the scenery. And to me, that's what makes it a very niddling episode. um You know, I mean, you know you have like the ultimate, you know, the Shatner, the balls to the wall, let's go for it performance. The ultimate for me has to be calm.
01:03:40
Speaker
has to be Ricardo Montalban in Wrath of Khan. Because, I mean, he just blows off the rafters. um And in this episode, by contrast, you know I don't see anybody having the opportunity to basically, you i mean even McCoy, who is arguing passionately for why people need to be given their freedom and be allowed to evolve, there's There isn't the righteous iign indignation that you normally associate with him. So nobody really has a chance to really reach inside in this episode. And that's as I say, that's that's why I think it's a middling episode. it for It's an episode about people who aren't allowed to fuck, and it's an episode that is lacking very much in passion. ah Kurt, you're the actor then. You've got to tell us who whose performance resonates.
01:04:33
Speaker
I really enjoyed the stuntman who had all the dialogue, calling Captain Kirk on his communicator that he's found this village. He did a pretty good job. He kind of looks like Seth MacFarlane. That's what I was staring at him. Well, yeah. But then he gets blown up for real. I think, so you know, that that stunt he has to do, like, you know, and it was ill timed with the explosion and he had to go to a hospital, you know, as we've read in the book for the second time. So ah I was thinking, I love Lieutenant Kyle having to do like suit, you know, the helmsman and the, you know, they got nobody else on the bridge that can go over to Spock station. And but I would say the stuntman who i I thought he did a nice little turn there. ah and so
01:05:22
Speaker
When he's running helter-skelter and runs onto that rock, why is he so fucking panicked? I mean, he looks like he's being chased by people. This is like nothing I've ever seen before! And it's like... I think that's because he gets cut off the the signal jams right as he's about to say, and there's all these people here, and holy shit, this thing I've never seen before, and he's freaked out. Maybe he thinks it's Godzilla that's gonna rise out of the mountain and kill them. I don't know. but That's gotta to be what it is. Jim, do you have maybe, do you agree with Kurt or do you have another person you want to nominate? I am going with Vol himself. He did rinse dinner friends for a good while. It beat the shit out of me. Well, because here's the deal. He pervades the entire episode. We think we know a whole bunch about him.
01:06:14
Speaker
But we know nothing about him. We don't know where he comes from. We don't know if if the Valians built him and then became children because he took care of it. We know nothing about his origin or his ah motivation or what he's trying to do. ah he did He accomplishes all of this without moving his face in any way. ah Move the eyes. Didn't the eyes move? ah they didn nothing like glow well they just glowed For some reason I just thought they move when they saw me I don't know. Were you watching the the i was watching their remastered? Yeah, okay, which I was not so I find them a little sacrilegious, but So his eyes may have moved in that um But he
01:07:01
Speaker
And also, we have no idea why he needs these people to drop exploding styrofoam rocks down him. ah When he's powerful enough to control the enterprise and space, and he's surrounded by these rocks himself, and he's underground, he could just like reach out and grab them, you know, so we understand nothing about him. And yet we feel we know everything about him. And that's his performance. I'll give it to Vol, so then that's the winner. But I want to put in an honorable mention for actually William Shatner, because ah even if he was telling a joke in that moment, I still believe that he cared about losing crew members when he punches Akuta. And and he see like he his reaction to him is sensitive. And then he's like, I'm not going to hurt you. And he's like, but you struck me with your hand. He's like, well, I'm not going to hit you again. But he's not delivering that as a wink. like He's being sincere. I love when Shatner's got his hands up and all the they rush behind him.
01:07:55
Speaker
And obviously, this is rehearsal he knows, but I like to imagine it's Kirk being awesome. He's got his hands up still, and then he knows McCoy comes out in his way, never moves his head. He's just like he but he reacts to McCoy all the same because he's Captain Kirk and he's awesome. And I just like how he's he's very commanding and very in controlling. And I do like the silly idea that he's like. Vol, we've come to bargain kind of thing where he's trying to talk to this
Kirk's Leadership and Episode Tensions
01:08:21
Speaker
computer. So there's kind of, not impudence, but I just like, you know, he's like, well, now that I know what I need to focus my energies on, I'm going to do it. Shannon always gives like a very raw, emotional, present performance. And I always appreciate it. And he's looked sweatier. He's done bigger things. And here he's actually kind of like very subdued. Even when he's snapping at Landon, I didn't really like that bit, but that's in the script.
01:08:45
Speaker
But I still thought he was like not an asshole. um And so I don't know. I like that. But fall. Yeah, fall. Great performance for a paper mache dragon head. I mean, the snake head. Absolutely. All right. The chattro then. jim nine but Can just say, Brian, um I. I agree with you. I think that Shatner gave, there's there's a lot of there's a lot of nuances to his character in this episode. And he goes between them. I mean, it's it's he is a very, very underrated performer. He is. And for the episodes where he has to like, you you see the actor making choices.
01:09:22
Speaker
You know, he's not again like by, you you know, third season, they're all on autopilot. But but in the earlier episodes, you see it's like, you know, when he is doing a piece of the action or the trouble with tribbles, you can see as an actor, he's saying, OK, I'm doing comedy now. I'm going to approach the character this way. And in this episode, I think he gives a lot of different you know colors and a lot of different flavor. So I think he does really do a really terrific job in it. But here's an example of Shatner being Shatner. And it has to do with you know protecting the star. you know It always has to be about Kirk, ultimately. you know he's He's got to be the hero. So by love, at the end of the episode, toward the end of the episode, Spock is like, well, if we can
01:10:05
Speaker
aim our phasers at it and it, you know, enforce ball to use all of his resources, then maybe we can, you know, and, and, and Kirk goes, that's exactly my plan.
01:10:23
Speaker
That is one, that's a great pickup, yes. Actually, he might for some reason I keep reminding like, wow, if this happened in the motion picture era, the enterprise would have been screwed because the warp powers tied, the phasers are tied into the warp power. and no more Anyway, that's a great note. That is absolutely, they had to change how many scripts throughout Star Trek to make sure that ultimately Kirk, that that was the, the negotiation was like Nimoy could literally lead him to the last They could write a whole speech for Spock. And as long as the last sentence that encapsulates the plan was in Kirk's mouth, Shatner is fine with it. That's what they figured out. Anyway, so then on that note, do we want to give the Shatner to just that moment because nothing could possibly be more Shatner than that line. Unless someone has an an idea of who they think really went for it. Jim, looks like you. No, no, I'll i'll concede.
01:11:20
Speaker
ah Kurt, did you have anyone that you thought or anything that you thought? No, it's you know it's starring William Shatner. I'll go with that. ah What part of this will you teach at Starfleet Academy? This is my own little pet thing and I'm going to mention it, but the best Starfleet officers are at their heart theater kids. so I think acting is an important role in becoming a successful Starfleet officer to it. that when Kirk asks everyone to create distractions, Chekhov and Spock have like a perfect improv scene. Mr. Chekhov, your tricorder readings are totally inefficient. Mind your own business, sir. For your information, I have a very high efficiency reading. Ensign, I will not have you address me in that tone of voice. What do you want, violins?
01:12:06
Speaker
but it's fantastic it's again a part of Spock that they forget about like he is part human he can do different things it's not always this is illogical I don't understand what's going on and I guess that point I kind of should have mentioned I thought Walter Koenig did a great job I'm not a checkoff fan I don't I check off to me has too much scrappy do energy coming off of him. And and so i've I've never been on board with him, but I liked him in this episode. And I thought everything they gave him was really solid material. Here's a great example of that. They'll teach Starfleet officer or trainees Academy cadets.
01:12:42
Speaker
get good at acting a little bit. So we'll help you out in somewhere down the line. ah Kurt, do you have any lessons? When, ah like the second time Scotty and Kirk talk on the communicator and it's like, wow, this is a problem with the ship. And I believe there are, like, other characters behind ah Kirk overhearing talk, Kirk, talk about it. You could tell like Kirk's like, wow, this is OK, this is bad. But when he closes the communicator, he's got he kind of has to put on that face like everything's fine.
01:13:18
Speaker
Everything's fine. You know, like, ah well I'm, you know, I'm the leader, so I can't ah show any weakness or ah have my people down here be fearful of what's happening to the ship up there. So I would say it's his ah abused child thing. Everything's fine. Or just project a commanding authority. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. everything ah Bob, any lessons for Starfleet cadets?
01:13:49
Speaker
Oh, well, I mean, if you're in as a serious Starfleet thing, it you know it seems like the Prime Directive, you know that that this episode touches on the Prime Directive, and it didn't even have a name in this episode. I'm not sure how many episodes that preceded this dealt with the Prime Directive as a problem. So that's, you know, and my serious answer would would be that. That's a great one, yeah. I want to take them all. I wanted to give everyone a chance, a bite at the apple here. Jim, any Starfleet Academy lessons? ah That it's okay to stand next to a phaser blast just a few yards away when it's being shot from space to the surface of the planet. ah the landing police At least in a cage when they did it, and they brought they it was actually they brought it down there. ah There was at least some wind.
01:14:44
Speaker
yeah Great point. Fantastic point. The continuity error there. The landing party's formation L that Kirk asks them to fall into when they're going through. but that way I don't know what that is. It's single file apparently. It's single file by order of ah cast number call sheet numbers. um There is something about the beam or transmission from Vol that managed to deplete a starship's antimatter prods through its containment field even. ah This seems like it's an important, if not vulnerability, ah tactical thing to have and tells us something about the science of antimatter. Also, ah it could quote unquote
01:15:27
Speaker
give some credence to the science behind the burn in season four of Discovery, which ah posited that all across the galaxy, dilithium exploded. So I don't know, just this idea that really weird energy could be beamed and deplete stuff from a distance. um Yeah, so I have another one. Right. Go ahead. If if you need to examine an alien's antenna. Grab his head and turn it away from you toward the camera. Yeah. That was, I was almost going to put that as a most of its time and like, that's almost like being two beams. I also love the optical printer moment where they go in for the close-up and everything is raining. Yeah.
01:16:09
Speaker
ah Could this episode have been hornier and would that
Romantic Themes and Canon Debate
01:16:12
Speaker
have made it better? Can I answer for all of us? Yes! it again hornier How could it have been hornier? You had two horny teens, basically, between Chekhov and Landon. what was And then the two, uh, the... No, you have this entire civilization that is DTF. in a very major way. So the second Paul dies, they should have been all handsy with each other. Well, yeah, you know, I mean, it just a they like there should have been a scene where they're on the Enterprise at the end looking down at the planet and it's just and in the streets. turns into Return of the Archons. That's what DC Fontana was trying to push away from. I think that so like to that point I'm like yeah that makes a lot of sense but like reading that book there is the censors were very nervous about the sex stuff in the episode and they like didn't even want Landon in the same hut with all the men
01:17:08
Speaker
for too long a time. like That's how clamp down on the sexuality. like it real they're like They're like, in the future, it won't matter. And it's not the future now. there's There's one woman in a hut with five or six guys. Something's going to happen. So I thought that was interesting. All right, so yes. And you think that would have made it better, the episode better. Bob, you've committed. Yeah, absolutely. i yeah I'm going to equivocate on this. Yes. It would have been funny to watch someone get their get the antenna tangled. That might have been fun if he goes in for a kiss, like his first kiss, something like that. I think if if the ship was not in peril, but there was another kind of peril, but not as dire as the enterprise burning up in the atmosphere. Kirk would have been trying to get busy with somebody. What I told David Sol, Val needs some fruits and vegetables. Why don't you go check some and then he'd have been all over. me show get the star Oh, the stars in the sky where I come from, you know, he'll be be doing that thing. That's one of my favorite. rocker and fat tropes you are What's that?
01:18:16
Speaker
He would have brought her into that Tiki bar. and That's right. It was a giant Tiki bar. They were all Tiki people.
01:18:25
Speaker
ah There's that Tiki bar in North Hollywood I've been to. and I didn't want to leave with the enterprise at the end. I wanted to stay on that planet and watch people making major discoveries.
01:18:40
Speaker
You know what, they should at the end, they should have left Chekov and Landon, you know, stay there and basically just, ah you know, as sort of like, okay, this is what we do here. Well, it's in the text. It's going to take an hour for the transporter to get fixed before they beamed up. So I think you're, I think you're onto something there, Bob. All right. So Trek, marry or kill the apple Jim. Absolutely Trek. Okay. All right. I mean, I, I would be hard pressed to find an original season episode that I would be willing to kill. I had a feeling that that's the way this panel would trend, but that's why there's so many of you to balance me out. So Bob.
01:19:26
Speaker
I would say definitely Trek. it's like there's a there's There's a part of me that's like, well, this is such an unspectacular episode. But the fact that it's unspectacular is exactly what makes it perfect Star Trek. you know they you know It has all the tropes in there. and we're We're going down to a planet. There are people with a culture that is diametrically opposed to ours. We need to find a way to fix them. The enterprise is in jeopardy. um There's a big clock. If we don't do this, then the enterprise will be destroyed. There's enough comedy in it. And you have this image of Val, which is indelible. And so, you know, definitely Trek. It's just the thing, the thing is, I wish this episode was a little more special somehow.
01:20:10
Speaker
the way when you watch Journey to Babel or, you know, a piece of the action or even, you know, Eye and Mud, they you know, like there's something really special about these episodes. And this episode is, it's not special in any way, but that's what makes it typical Star Trek. And that's what I think, you know, it's a selling point as as well as ah ah criticism and this is this is typical Star Trek so if you want to say if somebody was like what is Star Trek I want to see a typical episode this is probably one that you'd go to. Kurt do you agree with the trek?
01:20:44
Speaker
I do, I do. I think it's a good balance to some of the other original series episodes. ah And it's ah Bob is right. It's got a lot of classics, Star Trek stuff in there. So yes, definitely. I cannot get rid of this one. If I was on a desert island, I'd keep it. I was going to. Ryan, Ryan. Yes. You have now heard from three old white male straight lifelong bachelors now disappoint us. Oh, i was i it's a trek. It's going to go in the record as a trek. That's why. i This one was like, to me, I love the original series. There's like, bread and circuses that we did for Trek, Marry, Kill is like one of the biggest surprises recently for me rewatching Star Trek. Because that was an episode I had dismissed as like like a typical Star Trek episode not really worth watching. And I loved it on rewatch. i We married that one. We both thought,
01:21:40
Speaker
to Bob everything you said I'm like this is one I would say is a classic one this one from like just a writing story standpoint I have seen better versions of this story before including the two that DC Fontana kept harping on the return of the Archons and who mourns Vad Nias. But so for me, it's like a soft kill. And I kind of vote with that because I can vote my conscious knowing it's going to go in as a trek. It's not offending anybody. There's really good stuff. It's like one of the most expensive episodes of the original series, I think. And it looks pretty expensive when you look at it, especially in HD. It looks goofy on how they spent the money in some cases. But it looks great. The performances from all the actors. Bob, you mentioned there's not one that really stands out.
01:22:24
Speaker
But even the day players, the stunt guys, they're all like Kurt mentions, everyone's like fine to great. They're all like perfectly in their roles. But like the story for me doesn't actually cohere in a way that is quite memorable. We remember it for what, like the lightning bolts or the way vol looks or, you know, Shatner's tonight is becoming even worse from the explosion on set, ah the way Nimoy's eyes light up when it gets hit with the poison dart. So there's like memorable imagery from this one for sure. But I mean, it's a trick. So ah it's in the canon. This is a legally ah meaningful podcast. Everything we say here is conclusive. So there you go. You've done the day.
01:23:08
Speaker
and And there's nothing wrong with loving the original series whatsoever. And it's a tremendous credit that ah even I can be snooty about which ones are great. is like There's so many to pick from, and and we're saying this is a good one too, so nothing wrong with that.
Closing and Future Episode Preview
01:23:23
Speaker
All right, so here's an opportunity. Kurt, do you want to tell anybody about your social media or any projects to look out for? Um, I have, uh, a couple of movies in the pipeline that I can't talk about because I'm NDA's, uh, curtcarly.com and, uh, on the Instagram at curtcarly 3000. Bob. Uh, you can find me on Facebook and Instagram as Robert N skier. Um, one word. I have a feature film coming out in the near future. I'm not sure exactly when, but it's called gold beak. It's an animated film that was produced in China.
01:23:59
Speaker
And Lionsgate has picked it up. I'm not sure if it's gonna go to theaters or streaming. I hope it does go to theaters because it it really came out beautifully. It really looks terrific. And also when they released it in China, it was in 3D. So I wanna see me in 3D. That's what I wanna see. but but But no matter what, I mean, it it it turned out very nicely. So I hope people see it. Awesome. Jim, how about you? Come and see or listen to the Go Fact Yourself podcast. There's not Star Trek people on it every single episode, but it happens from time to time. And even when they're not there, we have other great people on. And listen to the podcast, come and see it in LA. It is free, free, free. And we do it in front of a live audience.
01:24:49
Speaker
It's a lot of fun. Thank you. I'm glad it's on my radar now, and I'm glad I had all three of you. I don't know, how do you think it turned out? This is the biggest group we've had so far. Do you feel good? Do you feel like you said your piece on the Apple? Yes, myself. I just listened to your Metamorphosis episode. And I had just seen the FBI episode that you referenced in it with the veil in front of the camera. Oh, wow. let's And this episode tracks a lot of music from Metamorphosis, but kind of disappointingly, it aired before Metamorphosis. That's an annoying ah factoid because that score is so amazing. But I was almost put the music for this episode as ah as a as an Anton Caridian because
01:25:38
Speaker
I think the score in this one actually really helps it along, too. So they did a nice job with it. You you guys were great. It was great having you all on. ah Thank you out there for listening. um If you're enjoying the show, consider rating us five stars wherever you listen. Write a review if you feel so inclined. ah Next week, I'll be joined by the author Tom Selinski, who has just written a book about Star Trek called Star Trek, Discovering the TV Series, which you can buy right now wherever you buy books. He'll be joining me in something I enjoy. he's I think of an author as a high status figure, and so I figured it'd be funny to bring him in for a low status episode, and that is Star Trek Voyager's Threshold, the one where Tom Paris and Janeway turn into salamanders and and have salamander babies. So until next week, TMK out.