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Vol 2 Ch 26 | Live From A-Kon
140 Plays1 year ago
Hey Gamers! We had the opportunity to panel at A-kon 2023. Here is our little live episode as we talk about women in Shonen, and masculine anime in a feminine lens.
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Transcript
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Fandames Podcast: Women & Queer in Anime
00:01:05
Speaker
All right. Hi, guys. Thank you so much for coming out. We are Fandames with Parks and Nebula. I am Nebula. I am Parks. We have a podcast where we talk all about women and queer folk in anime and fandom. And recently we've been interviewing a few voice actors and hearing their input on fandom and conventions and cosplayers. And it's just been a joy. And so we wanted to bring that joy that we have specifically with Shonen anime to Akon.
00:01:34
Speaker
And we are going to be covering women in Shonen and to look through a feminine lens at some of the more masculine and more like testosterone-based, fight-based type stories and just to see it from all angles instead of an angle that maybe you're most used to or that's been most heavily marketed to you.
Understanding Shonen: Target Audience & Examples
00:01:54
Speaker
A quick overview is just that Shounen in general, if you're unfamiliar, is the Japanese word for boy. It is quite literally any anime that is geared more towards young viewers, younger boy viewers. And it's focused on a coming of age, usually through literally fighting and overcoming their obstacles. So we're gonna think things like Naruto, Bleach, One Piece as the big three.
00:02:22
Speaker
These are some of the most popular shonen animes over the past 20, 30 years, not including the kind of god tier Dragon Ball, because Dragon Ball is just in its own league. But it's these stories that we've heard time and time again and we absolutely love, but have pretty much only seen through the lens of the male protagonist.
Shonen's Side Characters: The Unseen Heroes
00:02:45
Speaker
and have maybe not seen it through the lens of all the other characters and stories being told alongside as our wonderful protagonist is growing in his journey. What about all the other journeys and the other characters? And that is the draw that Parks and I have to Shonen and what we want to share and get everybody else drawn into because that's truly the joy in a lot of these stories is being able to delve into the side like
00:03:12
Speaker
the little side characters that become so much more than side characters in your heart and how that has infiltrated into fandom and how so many people have taken that and really ran with it.
00:03:26
Speaker
And I'm going to let Parker take over for that.
Beyond Battles: Depth in Fandom Discourse
00:03:29
Speaker
A lot of it can be through power scaling. Like if you've watched One Piece and you watch the shame of Thriller Bark where you have to watch Luffy chase the main guy for five minutes straight or five episodes straight, sorry. There's certain parts where you start to not care anymore. And it's all of the build ups for these fights, Naruto's long fights where
00:03:47
Speaker
Nothing is happening. It's the same five steps. It's even when he's fighting Sasuke. That goes on for so long before we start to get to the part of it where emotionally matters. And a lot of that emotion can be like the main depth to it. That's where all of the character is. That's where all of the building is. And if you take that away, it's just the fights. And that's where you go when you go on Twitter, you go on Reddit, you engage with these fan communities. It can be really hard.
00:04:11
Speaker
because it's no one wants to have a conversation about like the character depth in bleach or how these characters interact with one another they want right? Bless that's why you're here and that's what we want to bring to everybody else. But it's like if you try to talk to someone in that setting you're like on tumblr even tumblr was the worst for this because you would get
00:04:30
Speaker
Any sort of interaction, people will be like, well, who cares? Goku can solo them. That's not what we're talking about. If he can't, first of all, there's already, that's not even true. Sailor Moon can beat Goku. Madoka can beat Goku. If you can be snapped out of existence, you can beat Goku. Or if someone can, sorry, if you can zap someone out of existence, you can beat Goku.
00:04:53
Speaker
But that conversation over and over and over again is one of the things that drove me out of Dragon Ball. And I have tattooed on my damn body. Like Dragon Ball is so important to me, but I don't want a man to tell me. And I'm not trying to say this in a generalizing way. But if you're AFAB in some way and you've been to conventions, comic bookstores even, you've had the conversation where you've had to prove yourself as a fan to some degree.
00:05:16
Speaker
or your own merit for liking it is discredited because it's not the way that they want to hear and that can be a huge turn off when it comes to wanting to watch shonen animes it's it's so comparable to like wearing a band t-shirt and having some random person come up to you and say can you even name their songs can you name three of their songs and that's kind of what it feels like a lot of the time being
Character Motivations in One Piece
00:05:40
Speaker
an individual in Shonen fandom that isn't as focused on the more traditionally masculine and traditional fight-centric storyline so that we're much more interested. Obviously, we're in love with One Piece. We're clasping it all weekend. What we want to see more of is not necessarily Luffy punching someone and someone punching back, but
00:06:04
Speaker
choppers interactions with Robin and Frankie and Sanji cooking for all the straw hats and everyone's Involvements around that and what are they fighting for and what's the the motivator and I think that fandom has Genuine generally kind of brought that more to the forefront But even to not fully discredit fighting because there are so many scenes within animes where the fight does matter but it's like I was saying with Naruto where we can have fights that are
00:06:33
Speaker
have five episodes of just a single like punch even or a kick or one singular move that is so far removed from what we're even fighting for and it's like we need this depth. This depth is what matters. If I'm watching Luffy liberate an entire country with this punch that's gonna have way more depth than some beginning fight that doesn't matter.
00:06:55
Speaker
I don't need to watch this. It's like Senor Pink and Frankie. I'm understanding Senor Pink as a character because like his wife is the reason he's embarrassing himself every day and why he as a man is fighting with chivalry against Frankie one-to-one because that's the way they view each other. It's that depth within fighting that makes it matter. And that's what like if you compare, have you, have you seen Howl's Woman Castle?
Storytelling Perspectives: Male vs Female
00:07:18
Speaker
Have you noticed a lot of men don't
00:07:21
Speaker
I don't like that movie as much as women do. Her partner does not like it. He hates the scene with all of Hal's trinkets in the room. He hates it. He's like, I don't get why we need to look at these damn trinkets. It's because he's pretty.
00:07:36
Speaker
It's about the domestication of it all. It's nice to slow down and see these moments. And so when you can do that in the big shonen marks, which a lot of people, either you're into them or you're not. And honestly, there's so much holdup specifically. Sorry, One Piece. There's so much holdup with people studying One Piece because of how long it is and how
00:07:56
Speaker
it's talked about in the community. But that's also pretty heavy in a lot of fandom because in general I had a lot of hesitation watching any of One Piece and now I'm 860 episodes in.
00:08:09
Speaker
Good Lord. And Parks had a lot of hesitation with watching My Hero Academia and getting into that because of negative fandom interactions and just seeing the less pretty side of a story that is truly moving. And I unfortunately had that experience with One Piece as well. And to be able to look at it through a new lens, can we close the door? Is that possible? Yeah, thank you.
00:08:46
Speaker
They're screaming made me lose my train of thought
00:08:49
Speaker
But in general that we were kind of shucked away from these really amazing stories that now mean the world to us and have brought us closer with so many people and been able to really like bond and make new friends over these extra characters and these storylines and who's growing and especially like I'm going to shangrove or bakugo for a second because like bakugo, his growth. It's so good. And everyone's like, but I don't care.
00:09:20
Speaker
character growth that's what I want yes it's cool that he can flick in the pew the Air Force or whatever but like I really want to see the intense fighting and the tears shed and that being part of it what are you fighting for what's the reason behind your punch
00:09:34
Speaker
It's all the motivation of I need to be better. It's all the motivation of Luffy wanting to be king of the pirates. It's all the motivation of Edward Elric wanting to get his brother's body back. It's everything in those moments that makes the whole story truly a story worth being told. And when you reduce it to something that's
00:09:57
Speaker
just fighting. It's not really the angle that we want to share and that we want everyone to be involved in because there truly is something for everyone in Shonen Stories. Go to the next slide. Yeah. Oh, just kidding. Just kidding. We already did that. This is who you're talking about. We're going to talk about these beautiful boys. Look at these beautiful men. Fanner. So problematic and so hard.
00:10:25
Speaker
He's changing. He's improving. We're not even a Denver fans. That's just one of my favorite artists of all time and that was the one that was right on top on their Twitter compared to their other stuff. Plus it's beautiful. Look at him. I don't like it in Denver. Okay, back to the main programmings.
00:10:45
Speaker
The main programming is still me talking about beautiful men. But if you've been afraid to get into shonen because of that, there's so many other ways to engage. And a lot of that is mostly through fan communities. And that can be a lot of women or AFAB or queer forward because you have fan artists and fanfic. Fanfiction was born from women wanting to see their own stories be told or see their own endings. And that fanfiction is so huge into what makes fandom happen. That was the start of fandom as a whole.
00:11:15
Speaker
And so when you have fan fiction and beautiful fan art, you have a new kind of
00:11:21
Speaker
perspective into how to proceed for this fan. And you get a little bit more of a close connection with these characters than you would from the source media itself, because you can see a little bit more of like what's happening behind the scenes or what would be happening off screen. And fan artists is how I got into One Piece because one of my friends was drawing Sanji, so beautiful. The one on the left, so beautiful. I was like, all right, I'll give it a try. And now I'm deep. I'm
Fan Communities: Keeping Shonen Alive
00:11:46
Speaker
really, really deep into this. So
00:11:48
Speaker
And even conventions themselves, the only reason that they exist is because of young women that wanted to bring their hobbies forward in their lives, wanted to make friends through their interests and reached out and put in the work to do it. And whatever we come to these conventions now, we have rows and rows and rows of these incredible artists and incredible creators.
00:12:09
Speaker
that are truly spearheading any new fandom and any new involvement. Everything that you buy that you're supporting these artists is usually from the angle of, I love this character and I want to indulge in this character and have my love for this story be shown a little bit brighter. And when you see things that might be a little more soulless where it's just kind of, here's Goku on a hat and that's it. It's not as
00:12:38
Speaker
It doesn't capture the true fan experience and the true involvement that you might have with these stories like these two examples where you can see the movement and the engagement and how driven the characters are even in two completely different fan interpretations and two completely different characters, but still something that
00:12:57
Speaker
is central to Shonen. The shows wouldn't exist without them. And just to see it from this more softer side, this more engaged side in terms of who is Sanji cooking for? What is his motivation to cook? What is he so excited over? What is motivating Endeavor to be better about
Women in Shonen: Unique Storytelling
00:13:19
Speaker
his family and to correct his wrongs and to be a real good dad and a real good person?
00:13:25
Speaker
and to make sure that he's not seen as the villain anymore. Those are the sides that I think kind of get ignored in mainstream when it comes to really analyzing Shonen stories and really analyzing these characters. Who doesn't love a little lemon every now and then?
00:13:49
Speaker
But within, of course, we mentioned the big three in Dragon Ball. Those are the most notable shonens. There's so many more that are, are you gonna move to the next one? Whatever, you ready? Yeah, this is me audio prompting you. There's so many other big shonen that we didn't even list all of them. But if you've read Inuyasha or seen Inuyasha, that's one of the biggest women written ones. Technically, we can count things like Hunter Hunter because now it's currently also being written by his wife because he can no longer draw it for himself.
00:14:19
Speaker
He's not dead, but he is in a lot of pain. It's for medical reasons. She is the author of Sailor Moon, but she also relearned, because Sailor Moon is Shilohju, so I don't want to like... It is one of the biggest of all time. Yes, yes. Same guy, but...
00:14:43
Speaker
That one, those are real focus. We're talking about these are all written by women. There's way more on here. We have things like Blue Exorcist, which is on there. Of course, Full Metal Alchemist is one of the best anime of all time. Written by a
Strong Female Characters in Shonen
00:15:00
Speaker
woman. And you can tell from all of the hot women in it. Wow, winner you call me. Demon Slayer, another one. Demon Slayer is also written by a woman and is now one of the most popular animes for this year.
00:15:13
Speaker
and up last year too, over the last how many years? It's been running for four, four years, five years.
00:15:22
Speaker
Yeah, and that's that's a really gritty one that's one that's one of my favorites and we're more recent anime and You can see and even though the more attractive ladies in the story They still have so much depth and it's not just eye candy. It's also like yeah, she's gorgeous But she's incredible and she's strong and very sweet
00:15:45
Speaker
She runs her own business and she's doing all these things and it's phenomenal. Others include Noragami and Beastars, which is kind of a middle ground, but I'm going to include it. The manga is shown in the anime right now. I don't know.
00:16:04
Speaker
It's a shounen. The manga first season, or the anime first season is probably a little shoujo, I don't know. It's just kind of there. It's Jojo now, honestly. That's a Jojo Bizarre Adventure, if I've ever seen one. Dee Grayman is also written by a woman in
00:16:22
Speaker
Loved you, Gray man. So glad you guys still love it. There's so many that are like Women forward and you can tell honestly by watching it if it's written by a woman or not just a little bit because of the way that it's the relationships are built the way that you can have characters interact with each other and
00:16:37
Speaker
You can tell. And a lot of the times, you'll always recognize them as their female characters or their queer characters. They'll be recognized for their achievement first before they're recognized as being a hot woman. Like, we're not going to have Risa Hawkeye be seen as like a hot chick first. She's going to whip Roy Mustang's ass. That's how it is. And honestly, he deserves it.
00:17:01
Speaker
Um, but in general, being able to analyze these stories and, um, all of the character relationships and everything, even that goes down to their powers, their abilities in general that are written into their characters and truly baked in, but it's still a motivator. And to understand the mindset of, am I going to look at this character and going to look at them because they are strong.
00:17:25
Speaker
And this is just like anime Superman. And that's why I want to look at them. If that is your motivator, cool. But if you want to dig deeper and you want to have a more personal experience with these characters and with these stories, then that's where the more feminine side of traditional storytelling is.
00:17:42
Speaker
what you should kind of move into and to kind of look into if you've ever taken like a Literature analysis class with an art analysis class Which if you haven't highly recommend because it teaches you to look at all
Motivations in Shonen Storytelling
00:17:55
Speaker
of the different angles when it comes to Why did the creator make this particular decision and how does that decision? interact with the viewer and
00:18:05
Speaker
and how are those two things separate? You know what I mean? They're completely different existences, even though they can have that relationship and that communication. And whatever that communication is, whatever that synthesis is, is what you get to decide as the individual that's watching these anime, that's reading these manga, and that's truly putting yourself in the place of these amazing characters. And I would also say that the importance of the fight
00:18:34
Speaker
is obviously palpable in any story. But in general, I don't want to, and I don't think, I think I could speak for everyone that you don't want to see a fight just for a fight. You want to see the aftermath. You want to see the buildup. You want to see the reason. You want to see when Vegeta goes into the Majin and like tells Trunks, take care of your mother. Like that's, that's what truly makes those scenes. It's not
00:19:00
Speaker
necessarily the the impact of their power or how how far he flies through all of the stupid rocks and dragon ball scenes that are there for whatever notice reason there's always a rock there's always a rock throwing an hour a building or a wall there's something we're ripping through but even in has anyone seen superhero the movie for dragon ball yeah um that was the best one and i'm going to explain as have you ever seen a man love his daughter so damn much and i don't mean go on
00:19:30
Speaker
Piccolo was the best character in Dragon Ball for this exact reason. So if you don't watch Dragon Ball because of like, it can't be Goku. Just try again for Piccolo, I promise you. Have you ever seen a more handsome, beautiful green man? No. Piccolo was the best father of all time. He is. He's the eye candy that really makes you want to watch it.
00:19:50
Speaker
But it's that relationship that he has with Gohan that really draws us into it and I think would be really great to give a chance to if you have never given a chance to Dragon Ball Z in general that these characters are not just a traditional
00:20:07
Speaker
I'm learning from sensei. I'm improving as a fighter. It's the father figure. It's the familial relationships. It's Gohan not being able to have that with his own dad and being able to find that in other individuals that he looks up to. And he's beautiful. We're very cynical. Anyways.
00:20:33
Speaker
In general, we wanted to work towards just kind of opening a dialogue and discussing how we want to aim to reduce the anxiety that everybody may have, but particular AFAB individuals or women or girls just being involved in more boy-focused stories, traditionally male-focused stories, because there is so much there. And if there's anything that you guys have to
00:21:00
Speaker
input, anything that you want to discuss with us, we would like to open it up and kind of create that dialogue. We got a lot of time here to talk about it. Yeah. We're gonna go side to side if that's okay. So I'm gonna start here. What's up? So I would like to say I understand Naruto is a lot of that fight thriller, but some of my favorite moments in that manga experience, I literally did watch enemies.
00:21:24
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. Spoiler alert, my favorite part is we're paying people for Raya. Raya is my favorite. And it's not even the fact that he died. When you know Tsunade finds that owl, it killed me. It's the same reason I love the Evangelion. The scene where Kaji dies and Misato figures it out, and she's watching her break down because he doesn't know how to handle being human and having those emotions.
00:21:47
Speaker
Those are the scenes that matter most, and I don't want to knock out fights. I love fights. I've been watching one piece, one arc. It's the best animated fights I've ever seen in my life. I've ever said 200. I had a point. Yeah, keep going, keep going. Sorry. Sorry, I did not mean to say that. Not bad. I do think that the stark difference between the emotional intelligence and part one and part two is very apparent.
00:22:10
Speaker
The moment that I realized that was the top two's fight with Sasuke. When you learn at the very end and directly after that, the only reason that he did that is because he was already dying. He wanted his brother to get the man that he was showing on so that he could be stronger. He knew that he could instill the best in his brother. And even though he fucked up, he wanted better for his younger sibling. And it's just a really sweet, tender moment.
00:22:38
Speaker
that you don't see a lot in a lot of moments preceding that. Yeah. And so I think that's when the series kind of like takes a little bit of a turn and then the end is kind of. Yeah, no, and I totally agree. A lot of, I was watching Naruto. I have not fully seen it. I watched most of it and then most of Shippuden, but I did not finish it because I just, I got a little tired and I got burnt out and then I, it's, oh, I'm watching one piece. So like, you can't get longer.
00:23:03
Speaker
I mean it is what it is. But you finding that in that story is exactly what we want to make sure that everybody can get the access to and can have those moments with these stories because so many people just see the intense action and get turned off immediately and Naruto is a really easy one to get turned off to just because
00:23:24
Speaker
It's long, it's been around for so many years that you might be intimidated by the fandom in general. And so to have that intense moment and something that you can truly look to and say, if you get to this point, you will understand, it'll come full circle. That's a great example. I definitely, I'm a firm believer and everything should be given a chance.
00:23:44
Speaker
every time. I'm not going to let someone else sway my opinion anymore. After I got over my ick with my hero, I was like, okay, we're not doing this anymore. If I want to try something, I'm going to try it and we'll see how it goes. If you don't want to watch One Piece because it's so damn long or you don't know if you'll like it, watch until Arlong Park and if you still feel turned off by it, then you're good. Then you can stop. That's 30 episodes of your time that don't feel like that long. But it's like with Naruto, when I started it,
00:24:10
Speaker
which is then being damn mean to this kid for no reason, and then we're back at this swing again, and then a school, and we're progressing a little bit, and we're back to this damn swing, and why are they so mean to this kid? Well, didn't his dad die for you people? What the hell? And then we get deaf. It's like, I don't know what's going on here.
00:24:32
Speaker
It really threw me off. That was a part of my Naruto ik for a minute. It was like, I can't handle this. And then I came back, but we had another. Yeah. Yeah. A bunch of it. She is like fairy tale is and stuff. Like the way that they write that character is just so strong, but also has like some of the most vulnerable moments where she
00:24:56
Speaker
What a multivastaging character. I feel the same way.
Female Characters in Shonen: Critique
00:25:00
Speaker
For almost all of the women, I like Lucy, but there's certain parts where I'm like, you could be written a little bit. That's a woman written by a man. Yeah, that's how I feel about soccer, too. And I don't think anyone in a Naruto fandom deserves her. Get your hands off her. And then don't get me this started on the domestication of all the women in Orzo. That's icky.
00:25:21
Speaker
But it is also another good point and something to be aware of going into these these fandoms and like one of my big things with Dragon Ball in general is Chi Chi. Chi Chi is so strong. She's incredible. And to reduce her to simply being a wife and a mom is a really big disservice to all of her motivations and just her as an individual.
00:25:43
Speaker
And so I think that it's imperative that you, while we love these stories, that whenever you do engage with them, that you maintain this level of
00:25:57
Speaker
criticism and constant critique of what is being shown and what is being told and to understand, how do you move forward with that? How do you change your story with that in more modern times? And what would you do differently as a creator? Because that's what's going to bring us new anime and new stories. Well, it's like even in the same vein, we can consider Bulma, who's a mom and she's a mom of two and she even gets like pregnant and she's still doing stuff throughout Super.
00:26:24
Speaker
Like there's a level of criticism that Dragon Ball kind of like flies slightly under the radar for because they're like, well, we have all of these good examples of good stuff here. And then that's that.
00:26:37
Speaker
And so you can see Chichi getting domesticated and she's a mom now, but she also has very good reason to be. And it's progressed up to that point because that's all she wanted beforehand. That's why she wanted to be married to Goku too. And then she lost him. So obviously she's going to be less hesitant to go forward. And that's what matters. I'm going to defend Dragon Ball to my death.
00:26:58
Speaker
It is what it is. I can talk forever about how Goku is actually a good father and whatever. We're not opening that can of worms. We had another question in the front. Okay. I love Chainsaw Man. We don't have that golden eye.
00:27:26
Speaker
and the main character, the reason he wants to do anything is it's such a trivial, weird request where he just wants to basically have sex. What are your thoughts on that? I think Denji's Semperi is very, very well-excused because only time he has never actually been able to interact with a woman before Makama. Never. And so a lot of it has always known as straight abuse from his father. If spoiler alert, he killed his ass. Denji killed his ass.
00:27:58
Speaker
I can't continue this point without all right Which ones oh Part one part one ended like a year and a half ago, and now it's in part two if you haven't read it Sorry, I'm gonna. I'm gonna be light on this, but monkey was bad. Sorry guys. That's the way I'm sorry
00:28:23
Speaker
Like, kill your friends and family in front of you bad. And then use them as little puppets. Yeah, Makima's scary and Denji has only known abuse. But every single woman introduced to Denji only sees him as a vessel and it's always been that way and he's constantly being abused by these women. I'm not saying that as like a
00:28:47
Speaker
It's bad because these women are written as abusers. It's actually one of the, I think it's one of the best written pieces of fiction that I've personally read because the symbolism used throughout the way that they treat their characters. I love it every step of the way. I love the empathy that's written throughout. I love the genuine trauma and like responses to it that are written. Also, Asamitaka is like straight up autism representation. So that's very cool. I love an autism queen. I'm saying that as an autistic person myself. I'm not being weird, I promise.
00:29:14
Speaker
I was going to mention
Chainsaw Man: Abuse & Justification
00:29:18
Speaker
that Dr. Stone as well is kind of a decent counterpoint to that because Dr. Stone is a phenomenal concept and a really great story whenever you're just looking at the male characters.
00:29:29
Speaker
it reduces a lot of the female characters in my opinion because a lot of the art style doesn't treat them as if they are equally people because the art style makes them look much more cartoony and less intelligent because their eyes are like on either side of their head and
00:29:47
Speaker
No, because all of the men in that manga and that anime look really great, like the proportions are pretty solid and everything and it's usually just the girls, which frustrates me so much because I really like Dr. Stone and I really like a lot of the characters and a lot of the character interactions and to go back and forth like that in more modern anime is frustrating but is also important to
00:30:12
Speaker
remember that everybody's fallible and it's humans that are writing these stories. And if you don't necessarily appreciate it in that story, you can write your own and you can take that forward and be positive about it and create something that somebody else might look up to in 10, 15 years and say, that's what I love. And that's the best story ever for everyone cheering with Full Metal Alchemist. Like you could be
00:30:36
Speaker
that lady that stepped up and wrote the story, or you could be that individual that stepped up and wrote the story because you wanted to see something more substantial. Or when in doubt, just draw a fanart of all of the Dr. Stone girls, but with like 20 pounds of streu- sheer muscles left. Yes, flex. There's no reason these women should not be able to flex their, like, sleep zone at any moment.
00:30:59
Speaker
Right? Okay, you've had your hand up a lot. What's your question? So sorry. I want to see what is each of y'all's favorite representation of a woman in a showman window or anything? This is secondarily, I'm so sorry, but secondarily, if you could rewrite.
00:31:20
Speaker
This is a hot take. It's Nami and Nico Robin, both side by side. Although it's because of Oda's art style. And Oda's art style changed during the time skip because he married a Nami cosplayer. And he loves his wife so much. He's like, I'm going to draw her like you.
00:31:36
Speaker
So that's why Nami and Robin look like that in post time skip. That's why their boobs are bigger and they're not like how they used to be. But I'm defending it because as a Nami cosplayer, Nami is one of the most intelligent people in one piece, straight up. She's the one that can predict the weather no matter what. She's so smart. Her entire ability is her being clever and coy and being able to use lights and rain to make herself invisible so she can sneak past people and use these huge lightning bolts.
00:32:04
Speaker
And I love women who are intelligent. I love when we're not denouncing women to just being either bimbos and not that there's anything wrong with it, where they're not of any value or substance. And I can watch from our long part where I can see NAMI
00:32:19
Speaker
truly feel the way she does where she just wants to protect people and she doesn't want people to be hurt. The way she feels for kids in punk hazard where she saves all of them because that's what her mother would want her to do. Where she believes so strongly in herself and her crew and she's so damn smart. And Robin's the smartest woman before Nami in the separate veins of like street smart and book smart, separate veins. Robin is the smartest woman alive. She's the only one that can reap on a glyphs the way that anyone can.
00:32:47
Speaker
She's beautiful and she's so smart. I love them. Neb, do you want to see your favorite and then we'll go into what we want to rewrite? Yes. You're going to disagree with me, huh? No, I don't think I am because I also love those characters very much and want better for them because I want to protect them. I think that my favorite representation is probably Riza Hawkeye from Full Metal Alchemist.
00:33:08
Speaker
she is a phenomenal representation for abuse survivors and for women that have disfigured bodies and to also be a woman in the military to be exceedingly good at what you do to the point that that's kind of like the only thing that they will refer to her as is Hawkeye because of how good of a sharpshooter she is and it's
00:33:36
Speaker
It's so refreshing to see her treated just across the board as an equal with everyone and that the only time she isn't treated as an equal and the only time in full metal that she is reduced down to anything, she becomes a Vera King Bradley secretary.
00:33:55
Speaker
It's not that she loses her job, it's not that she now has to wear a skirt with her uniform, or that she's attacked by some villain, or what
Favorite Female Characters in Shonen
00:34:05
Speaker
have you. What's demoralizing about that is because they broke up the team that she was key in, and now she's essentially being kept under watch.
00:34:15
Speaker
because she is what's most integral to Roy Mustang progressing. And the only reason that he can do anything in function at all is because of Risa. And I think that that's also a really phenomenally written romance, even though it's not intended or ever stated as a romance. In my heart it's a romance. In my heart it's a romance.
00:34:36
Speaker
And it's what it will always be but that's but I think that that's Okay, what are you doing to my lieutenant? Yeah, okay, right?
00:34:52
Speaker
But I think that she's so multifaceted and so such good representation in terms of abuse surviving and also the way that she manipulates her own circumstances and how she always turns everything around and that she is not just like, oh, I guess I'm the smart woman that has to clean up after the silly man. Like they're all equal. They're all in equal terms. They all know and are important to each other and they know like their strengths in terms of Mustang's team. So she'd be she would be my favorite.
00:35:23
Speaker
My honorable mentions are also Bulma, because she's the smartest woman in the universe and can make a time machine that no one else can, so if I ever see one of those stupid Twitter posts where it's like, the smartest people in anime, and everyone's like, Bulma doesn't belong here, you are the problem. I don't see your fave making an intergalactular between universes and timelines, being able to just transverse all of those.
00:35:44
Speaker
Anyway, we're still going on questions because we have one more part of that. If I could rewrite any shonen, it would be Fire Force, because how the hell do you write Soul Eater and then make this? If I watch a woman magically jump in her pants and top go, whoop, I don't want to watch this. I have nothing against fanservice because it is what it is. It's usually mostly animation filler, but the
00:36:09
Speaker
fanservice in Fire Force doesn't make sense. It doesn't physically make sense how these situations occur. It's like when you play Danganronpa 2 and for some reason it becomes falling and her ass is down. It's like, how did you make that happen? What did you do?
00:36:25
Speaker
she falls and then like she's like i don't know if anyone's seen this part in one piece where nico robin gets thrown down the stairs and like her boobs are out i i can appreciate fan service if it makes a little bit of sense or it's funny if it's funny that's fine but in fire force it's like
00:36:40
Speaker
Um, on, dude! Which is interesting because I actually really like her. I like it, I just hate that bit. When I see her on screen, I'm sick of it. Maki? Isn't that her name? Maki? Yeah, I think so. No, Maki's the witch one. Yeah, I forget their names. I can't keep any of these names straight. I don't like it when it's for no reason.
00:37:07
Speaker
it has to have purpose. And if the purpose is just to be like, ha ha, her boobs are here, I don't care. It would make it funny. Can it be like a funny panel to use in a meme later? Or like what? No, it's never like that. So that's the one I would rewrite. What would you rewrite? You know, I've been sitting here trying to think, and I really think that it would be the ladies in Dragon Ball overall. But not Bulma. Like Chi Chi and Videl.
00:37:36
Speaker
And to... I have watched all of Dragon Ball Z and I'm going off of that knowledge and what I know. Alright, I would still rewrite it because I would still rewrite it for Chi Chi. Because I think that while a motivation to be a mother and to have a family is valid and is absolutely a phenomenal choice, if that's the choice you want to make for yourself,
00:38:02
Speaker
I think that being able to step back from that and to recognize when that decision is being made by a male creator and is doing so to further the timeline so that Goku will have children and then there will be more Saiyans. She becomes a vessel and a vehicle only for the male protagonists. And that's what bothers me about
00:38:30
Speaker
her relationships and her family in general because I really do love all of these characters and I have so many fond memories of watching them growing up and it's
Nuanced Female Protagonists in Shonen
00:38:40
Speaker
It's something that you see as a little girl in general and you want to see all the fights and like everything's cool and stuff and you see Chichi kick Goku's ass and you're like, yeah, and then all she does is become a mom. Well, is that what I'm gonna be? Am I gonna be super cool and be awesome when I'm a teenager and then I'm gonna hit 25 and then I'm just...
00:39:01
Speaker
I just get hit by the milk. Time skip milk. That's what they get to Naruto dude, I'm telling you. The exact same thing with Naruto because I don't want the little girls that are watching that and I have three nieces and I have a nephew and to watch how dramatically different it is just at their age they're all under six but even to see them
00:39:26
Speaker
perceive stories and characters and their engagement with these. I can already see what they're retaining and what they're not. I can already see the thoughts that I had when I was younger of, is that all I get? These guys get to keep going, but I don't. I can't remember which one it is. I think it's a Harvest Moon game, but there's a video game, I think it was for DS, like the original DS, that if you chose to play as a girl,
00:39:55
Speaker
Whenever you got married, the game ended. But if you chose to play as a boy, you got married and it kept going. And I don't want that repeated in these stories that I am investing so much in.
00:40:14
Speaker
So that's, yeah, question. So as far as, I'm gonna ask a favorite question. So what is your favorite action or shonen anime that has a woman as the main character or protagonist? There's honestly so many that I can't think of. I mean, I have examples I just can't think of.
00:40:37
Speaker
I would say Inayasha. Probably Inayasha too. That's one I can think of as like the main in terms of where the woman's not just sidelined from the outside, but I probably would also go with Dragonball because especially in the beginning, I'm gonna say Dragonball, but I specifically mean just Dragonball, not Z. I mean, where Bulma and Goku were on their little adventures together. That's my answer.
00:40:58
Speaker
Yeah I would definitely say Inuyasha especially because Rumiko Takahashi the creator of Inuyasha has stated that she refuses to ever include a panty shot in stories like Inuyasha and those characters are so easy to give that fan service to and you can still absolutely adore these characters and be like yeah they're gorgeous they're pretty whatever um you can
00:41:22
Speaker
do your own little horny things. And you don't have to have the direct fan service. You don't have to have it just shoved in your face. And I really appreciate that we can respect these characters from the story level and then also simp for them at our own time. She has armor.
00:41:43
Speaker
Yeah, but it's still hot. Exactly. It's not illusion, but it makes it so hot. It's not sexualized. You find her attractive, but it is not sexualized. And that's what I really appreciate in Inuyasha in general. But that was a great question. Thank you. That's okay. We're jumping back apart. Don't worry. Speaking of that, how do you feel female sexuality plays into showmen? Or do you feel it plays into
Fan Service in Shonen: Contextualization
00:42:08
Speaker
showmen at all?
00:42:08
Speaker
It definitely plays very heavily in a shonen. I straight up think though that most of the One Piece cast are like a little fruity, so... What I believe is slightly different. You can't tell me Nami and Vivi were a little bit in love. I know, I know. Me and my friend would literally cause Nami and Vivi tomorrow for that reason. But I think women's sexuality is very important, especially in that, because it's like most of the, even in fanservice, in men for women who are more straight.
00:42:35
Speaker
you'll see like Zorro rubbing his abs for like five seconds straight. And it's for me. It's for you. It's for me. My favorite sexuality parts is where I'm watching Sanji tell a woman how much he loves her. It's like, wow, that could be me. Okay. Wow. We have to wrap up pretty soon. We still have time. We just have to be on the up and up, ready to go. Okay. Okay. So you have a question. My beautiful Airden cosplayer.
00:43:03
Speaker
Do you consider sports animating to be like a subtype of show because I've noticed there's action like when you watch Haikyuu one volleyball game will take like 13 episodes. I'm gonna say volleyball they're flashing back they're talking about why they feel this way yeah that's also a great question yeah I don't know what like any actual men that watch Haikyuu
00:43:33
Speaker
For a male sports anime, I mostly know women that watch it. I know one, and it's my partner because he sat down next to me when I was watching it. I do agree, though. I do think that sports anime in that regard is kind of a sub-sect of Shonen because it takes the same story beats and the same cues that traditional Shonen storytelling does and that it is this motivator. And I would also say that that can go a little bit more if you want to go like fun college students.
00:44:03
Speaker
psychology class with it. It's more like that's what we've always intended with sports is that sport has been a controlled recreation of a fight. And that make maintaining that fighting spirit in the competitive nature of sports
00:44:21
Speaker
is at its core what makes it Shonen, I would say, and also at its core what makes sports typically more masculine appealing. But it is, it's so interesting that those stories have such a large feminine following, even though it truly is just this controlled form of fighting. Well, on that vein, what's your favorite Shonen?
Creative Fandom Engagement
00:44:39
Speaker
Hello? It's okay. Roomie, no, you're okay. You're good, you're fine. I'm like a bird. Hold on, let me ask her real quick. What's your favorite sport? On that note, what's your favorite sport, Amy?
00:44:55
Speaker
Okay, good, good, good. We have a question in the back. It's more of a suggestion. Have you guys ever thought riding your own magnet? Yes, when I was 10. She picked up the whole microphone. Yeah, I had a single one. It's a market for you. Yeah.
00:45:20
Speaker
So like write a story, find an artist. I used to be, she's a visual artist and I used to be, um, there was a point where I read Hunger Games, I was like, I could do this. And it's still in my Google Drive. When I get a little drunk, I'm like, this is the worst shit I've ever read. I used to print this one out and I used to, I was a latchkey kid, so I would go and hang out by myself at public places. So I would go to the library every day when my parents were not home.
00:45:48
Speaker
and type my little novel and then I would print it out and give it to the librarians and they would hold it and be like, mm-hmm. And then I was writing fan fiction when I was 13. And I started with Hetalia. So I'm a veteran when it comes to writing a little bit.
00:46:06
Speaker
Thank you. I ran a Romano ask blog on Tumblr. It was embarrassing. I used to draw my responses. So you don't need to write anything. My writing is a damage on this effort. That's what I'm saying. To answer your question or your suggestion, I have written in the past, I haven't written a full monger comic or anything. We actually had a really phenomenal interview with Sonny Straight where he was talking to us about how he writes his comics and his
00:46:35
Speaker
creative process and I have never been truly motivated to create a comic comic or like a full graphic novel but watching Neon Genesis recently I had never seen it before and I finally watched it has completely turned me around to that so maybe I have ideas I don't want to say I'm here because I don't want anybody to steal it but maybe
00:46:58
Speaker
Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. We have so many thoughts, but mine should be kept away. I've done my time. I'm a veteran. It looks like we're coming up on 10 more minutes. So if anyone else has anything else. Okay, hit us with one more and then we'll come to you next. Go ahead. I like what you said about fighting has to do with something as a male perspective. Yeah. I have trouble with John Wick because the dog was in it.
00:47:26
Speaker
No, that's a completely valid state. The dog was also not enough for me. I don't mind sexuality being in a story, but I would like it to be in the context of the character.
00:47:49
Speaker
Nami's a sexy character, so if I see her boobs, that's expected. And it's not even a sexy character, she's just for fan service. She's proud of her sexuality during this, she takes ownership of it. She enters swimsuit competitions for fun. She likes being a sexy woman and she uses that. And I don't even mean that in a negative word. Women have to be sexy. She enjoys it as a character and mostly is sexy with other women. And that's important. That's why I'm cool seeing her versus
00:48:17
Speaker
Fire Force. I would also say that in that same vein, Kill la Kill. And Sarita is a ear question about a shonen that's driven by a female protagonist. Yes, I forgot about Kill la Kill. Kill la Kill, I first tried to watch it when it had just aired and I couldn't stomach it. And I revisited it just a couple years ago and was like, oh my goodness, this is so
00:48:38
Speaker
Great, this is phenomenal storytelling. And yes, it's sexual, but it's in like a parody way. Like a satirical, this is so over the top, you can't find it attractive way. It's overwhelmingly a great science fiction story and a great shonen story that is, it just has a weird little puppeteering of, oh, I'll just draw them in with all the sexiness and then boom, you're crying. Like it's, wow.
00:49:07
Speaker
No, I watched that one with my mom when I was 13. That was not a good idea. Your mom has that hentai collection though, so she's pretty cool.
00:49:16
Speaker
My mom is fucking cool. But yeah, I was watching it with her. And then got to the point where we were discussing the relationship between all the characters and her mom. And it's like, this is a lot. I love you, mom. I'm sorry. I had to apologize to my mom because of the emotions that were coming out of me. I'm like, I love you. I thank you for not being like this. But you had one person. You had a question, yeah. And we'll come back to around you, too. OK. Going forward in the future with future campaign for Mongo,
00:49:45
Speaker
What would you like to see in a woman character that has not been done yet?
Future Female Characters in Manga
00:49:51
Speaker
Oh, that's a good one. Well, I'll tell you my immediate, my immediate reaction is because Fullmetal Alchemist is my favorite story period of all time. Well, I want, I want more stories about amputee.
00:50:11
Speaker
female protagonist. My grandmother was an amputee and so that was just normal for me like it was just the standard essentially and whenever I got older and realized that that was what some people would like make fun of it was very strange and when I found Full Metal Alchemist it really resonated with me and I liked that the motivator wasn't necessarily oh I want to fix my disfigured body it was I want to repay my brother because I wronged him
00:50:39
Speaker
and it was the familial aspect of it. And so I feel like marrying that concept of being motivated for personal and relationship reasons and also understanding and correctly illustrating disability, particularly when it comes to amputees, I think that would be what I would want out of a female protagonist. I'm a disabled creator, and so anytime I see a visible disability in any creation, honestly, I'm super important. When we put Polar up in a wheelchair,
00:51:08
Speaker
Because, you know, I like the representation, even if for the reason it's a little silly, because, you know, turtle. I like that we have it. I like that it can be seen. This is a League of Legends reference, sorry. But even in the card game, they just barely released Samira's master, or like her teacher. And she looks like Bayonetta, and she's in a damn wheelchair blowing people's heads up. Like, that's cool. I like that. I love that. Oh, someone's calling me. Okay, you. What's the most romantic shonen you've ever seen?
00:51:37
Speaker
It's one piece. Chiffon loves Veggie more than anything in this world and vice versa. I've never seen more characters, and this is all side characters, like we did not have to divulge into these side characters like we did, but the way that you see these sacrifices, even with PSY 85,
00:51:57
Speaker
the way you see these characters in particular and Oda when he wrote One Piece and SBS said he never wanted to write romance because he didn't like it he didn't think he was good at it and he wrote the most beautiful stories of all time if anyone's seen the Odin flashback and the way Odin loves Toki oh my god it is heartbreaking it's so sweet it's so tender but also I kind of want to say a little bit
00:52:22
Speaker
Neon Genesis has that same vibe for me, but in a kind of sick way. Yeah, I do agree though. I would say it's Inuyasha all the way. Because you're a simp. Not only that, but also because it's romantic in messy ways. Because it shows the young love aspect and how much they grow as individuals and the following sequel series, Yasha Hime.
00:52:44
Speaker
truly solidifies that romance with all of the the characters as they've grown up and have children now and it doesn't Domesticate everybody like everyone's still a badass. They just have kids now It's it's definitely eating a show for me Okay. Yeah last question So we've been talking a lot about fight scenes being conversations and fight scenes having emotional depth intelligence What are both of your favorite fight scenes from a show?
00:53:12
Speaker
Okay, I can answer this immediately. And it's Roy Mustang, absolutely roasting lust. Mine was probably going to be from the full mail office too. It's so good. And I think that there's also an interesting added layer because the voice actors are married.
00:53:32
Speaker
And the voice actor for Roy Mustang is Travis Willingham and the voice actors for Lust is Laura Bailey. And they're married. And that adds such an interesting layer of chemistry to that scene in particular. And so I think that at least with that, it resonates with me as I can immediately answer that question, not just because of the writing, but also because of the actors.
00:53:55
Speaker
It's another example of a man who loves his wife so much. That critical role scene where he has to do romance with Jester, where he's too embarrassed to roleplay with his own wife.
00:54:10
Speaker
Mine's probably going to be Majin Ghul specifically for Vegeta's sacrifice. That scene really stuck with me because I watched Dragon Ball with my dad growing up. Watching this with my dad, of a dad sacrificing everything for his wife and kids really meant a lot to me. Okay, camera in.
00:54:27
Speaker
For someone who's never seen an anime, what's the best one? Okay, well, there's an anime fish tattooed on your body, so I know you're lying, but go, proceed. The answer is Full Metal Alchemist. There is one... FMA Brotherhood. Yes, specifically FMA Brotherhood, but that is the only answer. FMA Brotherhood. And then if you're feeling a little crazy, watch me on Genesis. And if you're feeling a little crazier, take an edible and watch the 20... what year is it? 2008, Berserk.
00:54:59
Speaker
That was like 2016.
00:55:03
Speaker
Was it that late? I didn't watch it, I watched 97! That's my favorite clip of him going, alright, peace out. So my answer is, fill that a lot with spreaderhood, your answer is... Oh, for yours. For starters. I kind of agreed with you though. Cause that was one of my major.
00:55:26
Speaker
Okay, um, maybe Dragon Ball? Dragon Ball is the original. Yeah, the original. Watch One Piece is one of those. One Piece is good. I promise, the length is nothing. Once you're in, you're in. But also, JoJo's an art adventure. Yeah, JoJo's good. And I know this is about Shonen, but we're on High School Post Globe. Yeah! Awesome. Thank you guys so much. This was phenomenal.
00:55:54
Speaker
If you want to hear more, we have a podcast. We interview lots of people. We talk about a lot of things. We simp over Vegeta. You can follow us here. You can support us through Patreon if you'd like, but thank you guys for your turnout.