Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
S4E10: Trailblazers, with Guest Hosts Dalila Haden RLAW'23 and Caitlin Pennell RLAW'23
16 Plays1 year ago
In this episode, Co-Deans Rose Cuison-Villazor and Kimberly Mutcherson are interviewed by the Rutgers Law SBA Presidents, Dalila Haden RLAW'23 and Caitlin Pennel RLAW'23. The co-deans are the 2023 recipients of the New Jersey Women Lawyers Association's Trailblazer Award, which will be given on March 28, 2023 at the 15th Annual Women's Initiative and Leaders in Law (WILL) Platinum Gala.
The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Production Manager: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/rutgerslaw/messageRecommended
Transcript
Introduction of the Deans and Unique Episode Format
00:00:02
Speaker
Hello, this is Rose-Crizan Villazur, interim co-dean of Rutgers Law School in Newark. And I am Kim Mutterson, co-dean of Rutgers Law School in Camden. And this is The Power of Attorney. So it's already a different episode because we've got both of us on here today. But it's going to be even more different because we are going to be the interviewees instead of the interviewers today. So I'm going to let our interviewers introduce themselves and get us started.
00:00:27
Speaker
I can go first.
Introduction of SBA Presidents
00:00:28
Speaker
Hi, I'm Delilah Hayden. I am the SBA president at Rutgers Law School in Newark. Hi, I'm Caitlin Connell and I'm the SBA president for Rutgers Law School in Camden. Thanks for interviewing us. Yeah, we're looking forward to it. So fire away.
Unexpected Path to Deanship
00:00:44
Speaker
What made you decide to seek out the opportunity to be a law school dean? Was it something you always wanted to do?
00:00:50
Speaker
So I'll go first. It definitely was not something I always wanted to do. I'm not even sure it was something that I wanted to do when I said yes to it, quite frankly. So I ended up becoming dean because I was the vice dean at a time when the person who was our dean got a new deanship and was going to be leaving. And the chancellor on the Camden campus asked me to step in as dean. So I became dean in January 2019.
00:01:17
Speaker
And I think the first conversation that I had with the chancellor about becoming dean was in November 2018. So I had a very, very short window of time, one, to decide that I was going to say yes, and then two, to sort of transition into the role. So it was not something that I sought out. It has been the most difficult professional experience of my life, but also incredibly rewarding.
00:01:42
Speaker
Like Dean Mutcherson, I did not seek out the position of a deanship. I was also Vice Dean. I actually became Vice Dean near the same time that Dean Mutcherson became the Dean. By December of 2018, Dean Lopez had announced that he had asked me to serve as the Vice Dean in Newark.
00:02:00
Speaker
And Dean Reed Weisbord at the time was finishing off his vice deanship. And so I started to shadow him in the spring of 2019. But I didn't start officially until July 2019. And being vice dean is something that I had thought about, academic affairs dean. That's a normal type of administrative work that many law professors try to do or are interested in. And it's something that I thought about before. And the reason why is because I wanted to
00:02:26
Speaker
be to have some say in the institution with respect to faculty affairs, primarily looking at research support for them and then how to mentor junior faculty. And so I wanted to do that, and part of being Vice Dean meant being involved in that. But then two years later, Dean Lopez stepped down, and the chancellor asked me in Newark to also be the dean. It's different, though. In Newark, we wanted to do a national search. And so I agreed to serve as interim dean. And honestly, I don't know if I wanted
00:02:54
Speaker
It wasn't something that I wanted to commit to, to be a permanent dean anyway. And so having an interim deanship gave me the opportunity to really think about, is this what I want? Because being a dean is different from being vice dean. And in terms of scope of work, the hours that one engages in, the types of challenges that one faces as a dean, completely different from being a vice dean. And so that's how I got to where I am. And then after the first year of the interim deanship, or during that time, President Holloway had said that we were going to select one dean.
00:03:22
Speaker
And so then I stayed on, I was asked to stay on for a second year. And you know, the rest of the story, we're in the middle of the dean's search, and Dean Mutterson and I will both be stepping down at the same time. That's amazing. I think it's such, I don't know what the word is, amazing that you both
00:03:39
Speaker
We have two strong leaders in North and Camden at the same time. I think that's amazing. And the fact that it was practically fee is so interesting. I mean, having a being a co-dean, that kind of relationship, it's unique in the
Co-Deanship Structure at Rutgers
00:03:52
Speaker
academy. Most law schools have just one dean. There are, I think, only two other law schools that might have the same kind of structure. But what's unique about us is that we were in two locations and some law schools that have a co-dean shift, they're in the same
00:04:05
Speaker
just one campus and so being co-deans was different from what I imagine a dean would be and it's been really a privilege to work closely with Dean Mutcherson.
00:04:16
Speaker
I learned a lot from her, learned a lot from our, from the work, the relationship that we've developed with each other and our colleagues. So it's been, it really has been a challenging, but also rewarding experience. Absolutely. I'll ask my question.
Balancing Roles: Teaching and Administration
00:04:30
Speaker
Has being a Dean affected, I guess, your career outside as a legal scholar or just as a legal professor? Because I know you both still do professor work, but do you think that being a Dean has made you reflect on your work differently or treat it differently or just go about with a new perspective?
00:04:44
Speaker
I think that, I mean, one thing that I will definitely say about being a dean is that it has given me an enormous amount of appreciation for people who are deans. The amount of work that's involved, the amount of sort of politicking that's involved, the amount of
00:04:59
Speaker
anger that is directed towards you on a regular basis has all been really eye-opening and difficult in some circumstances. But I never stopped teaching. Rose never stopped teaching either. And I've always loved teaching. Teaching for me is the best part of this job, frankly. And it's been incredibly important for me to be able to still be in the classroom and to interact with students, not as the dean, but as a professor.
00:05:26
Speaker
because that's the space where I feel like I am providing the most value, frankly, in the classroom. So that's been really great. And in terms of my scholarship,
00:05:38
Speaker
Whew, it's been very hard to keep that up while being a Dean. And given the work that I do, right, I'm a reproductive justice scholar and the world has basically blown up for those of us who do this work. So particularly since last year, I've been working really hard to try to find spaces where I can still do that work because it's so critical right now. So there's definitely a part of me that's looking forward to July 1, 2023, when I can sort of leap back into doing that work more consistently.
00:06:05
Speaker
Yeah, writing as a dean, researching and writing, both are super challenging, while one is in an administrative role. It's been really hard to research and write, and I publish. I was part of a book project, and Dean Mucheson was able to publish, too. But I think that actually getting the work done, it made it so much harder, because then I'd have to wake up even earlier than I needed to, or stay up later, because once I'm in the office, then it's all dean work. My calendar is just booked. Before I became a dean,
00:06:35
Speaker
I controlled my own calendar. And then when I became the dean, three other people had access in my calendar and I would wake up and I'll just see a bunch of different meetings scheduled and think, oh, there goes my writing time. And so a lot of researching and writing happens early in the morning or late at night. And in my work, I write on critical race theory. And so, as you know, in the past few years, there's been a lot of pushback and politicization of CRT. And so I've been wanting to be much more active in researching and writing that area, but I have not been to the extent that I
Promoting Student and Faculty Support
00:07:04
Speaker
want.
00:07:04
Speaker
And so that's been part of the challenge. And, you know, you have to, there's some things you have to give up once in a while when you're a dean, when serving in an administrative capacity. And so researching writing, I've slowed down in my writing. And I, like, do much as I'm looking forward to July 1st and go back to some articles that I've kind of set aside and a book project that I've ignored.
00:07:26
Speaker
As for teaching, it is one of those passion that I couldn't give up. I mean, if there was one thing I did not want to give up, it's teaching. Being in the classroom gives me that kind of joy that's what I love about being a professor, to actually interact with students and be able to mentor them. As hard as it is, it's so hard teaching, prepping for class, and really being present for students. But I do it because I love teaching and making sure that I'm still there for students while I'm in this role.
00:07:54
Speaker
You know what I wanted to add, Rose, because I was thinking about, so when you become a dean, there is, we call it baby dean school. So like in the summer, there's a meeting that the Association of American Law Schools does, and we all sort of get together. And we talk to people who are already deans, and they give us advice and everything. And I remember when I went to baby dean school, one of the conversations was about when do you sort of speak out as a dean, right? When you sort of talk about what might be potentially controversial issues.
00:08:21
Speaker
And there was a more senior dean there who said, I only ever talk about things if it's squarely in my wheelhouse, sort of in a scholarly sense. And if it's something that's so huge that you can't not talk about it, otherwise I will not engage in any discussions.
00:08:37
Speaker
sort of about what's going on in the world. And I remember in that moment being like, well, that's not how I'm going to be, right? Like that's just, I can't even imagine having to sort of put aside all the other sorts of things that I care about as part of being a dean. And I think that's one of the things that Rose and I have both been very clear on, that there are things that matter to us, there are things that are important to us, and that we're still going to talk about those things. And
00:08:59
Speaker
have conversations and say things that are potentially controversial because being a dean doesn't mean that you have to stop being a person who cares about things in the world. I have chosen to limit the things that I would sign on to because I recognize even in my personal capacity,
00:09:14
Speaker
When they Google me, they'll see that I'm the interim dean. And I don't ever want to ascribe my views onto, my
Identity and Representation in Leadership
00:09:21
Speaker
personal views onto the institution. So I have, with exception, with exception of immigration, when it's immigration, then I'm, I'm all in and I put my name out there. But on other things that I would have signed on to as a law professor, I have, I've chosen in the last four years to not be as, um, as open about them. And I, you know, when I go back to the faculty, I, I will go back to my normal things of signing onto anything that I think is that what my name helps to, or my,
00:09:43
Speaker
my signature helps to lengthen the number of support for a particular cause. That's really insightful to hear. For me personally, I am very anxious for July 1st, 2023, because I'll be studying for the bar.
00:09:57
Speaker
I'm really excited for both of you. I mean, like Dean Seavey, it's been great seeing you and how much you've done for the school. And like, I've had like two different deans, which is nice in my three years here. But I think that being president and like serving with you and connecting with you has been actually rewarding because you do a lot for the school that no one like always sees every day. And I think it's especially like as a woman of color, it's like, not only are you a Dean who's like, oh, like I'm working, I'm a professor, but it's also like you're a representative in a way of like, this is what women of color can do. This is what we can aspire to do, even if you didn't directly
00:10:24
Speaker
do the application and search and things for the deanship, I think that you both have done a great job. And I'm excited to see your academia in the future. Like I love reading on CRT and reproductive justice and changes. And that's still a huge topic. So good things you have and you haven't missed out on everything. So that's really good. Well, Delilah, it's been great working with you because I got to know you when you were still at 1L, right? You ended up
00:10:44
Speaker
There were some changes within the SBA that led you to step up. And so in Newark, it's a story. I think it's a theme that I'm seeing here. Caitlin, I don't know if you chose to run for SBA initially, but Delilah was sort of, she was just going to be one of the, what were you, a recording secretary or? Yeah, well, I became president in 2L, but it was still like right at the beginning of 2L years. So essentially half my school career has been being president of SBA, which is very weird.
00:11:09
Speaker
And then you go to serve again in your third year. I mean, you really could have just stepped back and said, you know, I've done my time two years. And then you continue to stay on. And I think that says a lot about your service to the community, which as you both know, being in this position, leadership position, it's not easy. There are so many stakeholders. And you represent a position that has to contend with various tensions and conflicts. And you really have to figure out a way to navigate those different demands from various individuals and groups.
00:11:38
Speaker
Yes, it's very true.
Commitment to Students and Curriculum Development
00:11:41
Speaker
So I'm sure, like Lila said, you're very excited for July 1st. Lila and I would like to go backwards in time. And I really respect and admire how you both stayed true to what it seems like your passion was before becoming a dean, which was being educators first and foremost. But is there anything else you can think of throughout your experience as being the deans of, the co-deans of Rutgers Law that has also been very personally rewarding?
00:12:05
Speaker
OK. Well, there are a lot of things about being a dean. And I'm vice dean. I count just four years of service that I feel really good about. And a lot of this work is invisible. We're not going to send out a press release about these things. But I feel good about them. And I could talk about it from the students, and then faculty, and then staff. For students, I was committed to making sure that there were more courses, particularly on immigration and race.
00:12:33
Speaker
And that also came alongside the time that the faculty issued a resolution in support of Black Lives Matter, the movement, and then recommitting ourselves to
00:12:45
Speaker
be an anti-racist institution. So that aligned with my vision of making sure that we have more courses on not only CRT, but other race-related courses, but also just courses in general that opened up our understanding of the development of the law from various perspectives, gender, disability, immigration status. So I was committed to that as a Vice Dean. And then related to that, I really wanted to work hard on student experience and thinking of how technology could help that make better student life. And here I'm talking about a new work because
00:13:14
Speaker
we in Nord have not, you know, talking about limited resources, we haven't had as many resources on our end to make sure that we had the right technology so that students can check their grades easily or can move between different courses much more easily than others. And so that took, it's still an ongoing project, but it just takes so long to get us up to speed on that. And so I'm glad to see that
Personal Growth and Leadership Challenges
00:13:39
Speaker
with the Leshonex entry to the law school,
00:13:42
Speaker
that she has taken that on. And she's pushing for that, which I'm grateful for. So that's for students. For faculty, we don't have a lot of research funds for faculty to do their research. And my goal has been to explore how else can we
00:13:57
Speaker
What are some endowments that we have not used? Or what are some other opportunities that we can rely upon so that we can increase the pot of research money for faculty? And I sometimes sound like a broken record. We need to raise more money for faculty scholarship because I came from three other institutions before here. And in those institutions, I just saw and experienced more resources for faculty support.
00:14:20
Speaker
And so it's amazing to me that our faculty has continued to research and write given the limited resources that we have. And so I admire the faculty so much for their drive and their commitment to publishing. And then for faculty and then staff, some of the invisible work really has to do with equity pay. There's been, and I obviously can't say too much about it, but there are, I was committed to figuring out how in my position I can help increase salary equity of some faculty members and some staff members.
00:14:48
Speaker
because it was the right thing to do and it was time. Some of the inequities needed to be fully addressed. And there's commitment in all university leadership, but we just needed to figure out how to go about doing that. And so I feel good about having made a difference in that space in equity pay.
00:15:07
Speaker
So, you know, I agree with Rosa. So many things that happen behind the scenes that people never see. And there are lots of sort of little things like that. But I would say that the big things that I really am proud of to sort of think about leaving at the law school. One is that we started the law and inequality class. You know, it's not mandatory yet. But I think that we're getting there. And I've taught that class for the last two years. And it's just, I think it's a really wonderful addition to the first year curriculum.
00:15:35
Speaker
And it's sort of weird that we don't have any sort of elective in the first year. A lot of law schools have made that change. Some of them, I had electives in the first year when I was in law school, which was quite some time ago. So we've got some work to do there, but I'm really proud of that class and I'm proud of making it available to students. I'm also really proud of some of the hires that we've made in terms of faculty.
00:15:55
Speaker
over the last couple of years. One of the biggest legacies that a dean can leave is faculty. You know, who you hire is really meaningful. And we haven't always been as successful as I would like in terms of diversifying, particularly racially diversifying the faculty in Camden, but the work continues. So I'm very happy about that work that we've done. I am thrilled that we now have an Innocence Project in New Jersey that is based at Rutgers Law School. I could not be prouder of the work that went into that, and that was a journey.
00:16:25
Speaker
But I feel like we're really on an upswing with that work right now. And I think that it is going to, I mean, it's literally going to be life changing for people. And I just feel great about that. And then the last thing is this process that we created to allow our non tenure track faculty to move on to the tenure track, which sounds like a very
00:16:44
Speaker
which doesn't necessarily make sense, right? When you just say it like that, like who cares? But part of why it's so important is that often non-tenure track faculty, so your LAWR faculty, clinical faculty in lots of institutions, don't have the benefits of tenure, right? So they don't have the kind of job security, they often aren't paid as well as other people, and they tend to be parts of the law school where there are lots of women and people of color, right? So it's this way of sort of segmenting off part of your faculty and then, frankly, treating them as second-class citizens.
00:17:13
Speaker
the fact that we were able to first get the faculty to sign on to the idea that we should have this path and then literally take it up to the entire university and had to go up to the president in order to get approval for this plan. And then this year we have our first people who have gone from non-tenure track to tenure track and who've gotten positive votes from the faculty for tenure and promotion. So I could not be prouder of that work. And that was definitely, that was a little bit of an uphill battle, but we got there. And I think it's deeply meaningful for the law school.
00:17:43
Speaker
It is an opportunity to live your principles. And I'm glad that we're able to do that. Yeah, I second that. So that part of what I was saying about equity has to do
Future Plans Post-Deanship
00:17:51
Speaker
with what Dean Mucheson said, because it's not easy trying to push forward a initiative like transferring some faculty who've been here for a long time from non tenure track to tenure track.
00:18:03
Speaker
But we were able to push for that at the university level and get some resources that we needed for them and then continue to provide support for them. So yes, I'm so proud of that. And then yes, in terms of hiring, we've been really lucky in the last few years that we've been able to hire amazing scholars and who are diverse, people of color. And that's true. It's one of the dean's lasting legacies. You walk away and
00:18:29
Speaker
I can say that when I stepped down, I've been able to hire seven people and was able to retain two people. I lost some, unfortunately, to other schools, but we were able to also bring in some. And that makes me feel really good about the service that I've provided to the law school. That's amazing. And so I hear you both reflect on
00:18:46
Speaker
your time at Rutgers and I can say as a student we've really felt a lot of the effects. I know when you're talking about expanding the classes, one class I took last fall when I was a 2L was Professor Iyer's sexuality, gender, and the law class. I learned so much. I sat in that class twice a week and I just ate up everything she said. I learned so much and it carried on to so many other classes like I took family law this fall
00:19:09
Speaker
And I think it'll help so much with the bar, too. But it was also so personally interesting and enriching. And it was just a great class. And it just shows how offering so many different kinds of classes like that really does benefit the students.
00:19:23
Speaker
Oh, good. Good. Yay. Yeah, that's cool. I took a similar class last fall. Caitlin, that's really funny. I took it with Professor Ball. It was the same class, gender, sexuality, and well, Professor Ball. I also took law and inequality, though, last spring. And that was one of my favorite classes I've taken here so far. I took the professionalism class with Professor Soled and Professor Valverde. And I loved that. That was really amazing and very great to just have discussions with people of all class years. So that was really nice. It definitely should be. It's a class everyone should take, if you can. If you're a 1L, you will.
00:19:52
Speaker
But otherwise, yeah. Another question is, what did working together mean to you both? What did having each other? How did that help you? What did that mean? And how could other people learn from your partnership together? Oh, goodness. I mean, we can talk so long, a lot about that. So one thing both Kim and I have, we laugh a lot. So I think part of you have to laugh at the job. It's challenging, but also just
00:20:19
Speaker
in terms of our appreciation for humor we're kind of aligned in that way and so that I think has helped the relationship. Collaboration means
00:20:29
Speaker
being true partners, my view. And we really have to have mutual respect for each other's views, even if we don't agree with each other, which we actually don't always agree. So on the outside, we try to present a unified front. And by the time we've presented some of our ideas, we've gone through the process of working through some of our differences of opinions. And then so that when we present our views with students or to faculty, we're unified. That was important to us when we started together.
00:20:58
Speaker
So I'll start there, and then Kim, I'll feel free to just jump in. One of the things that we will often hear from deans when we go to dean gatherings is how lonely this job can be. And so on one hand, you can imagine that a co-deanship could be frustrating or difficult because you have to kind of work with another person. And if your personalities don't fit, that could be a huge, huge problem. But one of the things that's been so perfect about this job is that I've been able to work with Rose. I mean, it's just been a really extraordinary experience.
00:21:27
Speaker
And it has made it a job that wasn't lonely, right? Because we have each other and we are in the same environment and can commiserate with each other and can share stories with each other and can bounce ideas off of each other. And that's just been really critical. And I also think that it helps that we are both women and both women of color. And I think we both have experienced
00:21:51
Speaker
Even in a law school that considers itself to be pretty left and probably progressive, we've definitely experienced things that I would say have both a race and gender component to them in ways that we have been treated from a variety of different stakeholders. And it's nice to be able to have somebody who you can talk to about that and not have that person say, oh, you're probably just making it up. That could sort of gaslighting that I think can often happen when people don't share your identities.
00:22:21
Speaker
And we've really been able to support each other in that in ways that I think I will always, always, always be grateful for. And the other thing that's been really great for us is that we are deaning at a time when the deans in this country are more diverse than they've ever been. Certainly in terms of gender, we have tons of women deans out there now.
00:22:41
Speaker
And there's also this just great collective of women of color deans. And we have a listserv and we have text threads and all this stuff going on. And it is hands down that group of women law deans is the most supportive professional community I have ever been a part of. I mean, just absolutely extraordinary to have access to people like that. That's just been such a gift. I would not have made it through this deanship without Rose and without that community of people.
00:23:11
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Same here. Definitely. You feel that there are people backing you up because it's not always the case. I mean, as a dean, you can get your ask of many things from students, rightly so, from faculty, rightly so, and staff, right? Same thing. I mean, there are alumni, multiple stakeholders, and it's appropriate and completely reasonable for a dean. It's our job to listen. But then whether we can give
00:23:37
Speaker
what they're asking for is a different story, it's a different response. And so there are many challenges to being a dean and then to add on the layer of gender and race. I mean, it's some of the, imagine, you can maybe imagine some of the stereotypes against black women and the stereotypes against Asian American women. So
00:23:56
Speaker
I am sometimes thought of as, oh, you know, she's submissive. And then Dean Mucher said it's a bully. And then you think, my gosh, I mean, is that really the case that if they only knew what it's like behind doors, closed doors and Dean
00:24:09
Speaker
Hawkins and Dean Casafa are there with Dean Young and Dean Chase, and then we're all talking and trying to work through some things together. There's a lot of collaboration and compromises and conflicts that happened. But on the outside, you know, there are these stereotypes, really, you know, unfortunate stereotypes that are lodged against us, which has made me sad. It's part of the sad part about being a dean, because you recognize, gosh, they're, you know, despite what you do sometimes, they're just these, those racial stereotypes and gender stereotypes are still
00:24:38
Speaker
thrown at your face and you have to present this really oh my gosh my voice is cracking but you know you can't help but be emotional now here i am the woman being emotional but it's about um you know you have to as a leader you know you got to take it all in stride right you just you let it roll off your back and you
00:24:54
Speaker
You stand in front of everybody and then you smile and then you're a strong person. I'm sure as I imagine, Caitlin and Delilah, you've had, I mean, can you think of examples? I'm going to flip it a little bit right now. Can you think of examples where that has happened to you, where you've had the strong SBA president, despite maybe some of the, I don't know, stereotypes that might be thought of about you? Yeah, I mean, I can start with that. I came into
00:25:17
Speaker
being president the first time because I was, I hate to say this, but I, in my two all year, I just wanted to lay low. I was president of my sorority in college. And then in, was it my two all year? A lot of the three olds were like, you should run, you'd be great. Like blah, blah, blah. And I was close to the other president. And I very much was like, I don't want to do this. Everyone knew me at school was like a very nice person, a peacemaker, like, oh, you'd be great for this. And so like when I first joined, it was great, but it was also very hard because our SBA at the time was, it was, there's a lot of like tension in it. So a lot of it was very much like,
00:25:47
Speaker
I was on the side of the tension at first. And so getting to the role of president, there was a lot of like, some people were very happy. They're like, Oh, this person's great. She's so welcoming. Everyone loves her. It's great. But on the other side, I'm like, there is attention, but also whenever as a person of color, I think about, Oh, people not liking me or be frustrated with me. Is it because of me as a person?
00:26:02
Speaker
or is it because of my identity of how I'm perceived by other people so I feel like there's always that question still of like if people don't like what I'm doing or people don't like me is it just because I'm doing badly or is it because they're like oh she was set up like she's always gonna be bad I always had this idea in my head because of who she is like
00:26:18
Speaker
forget her lower, whatever standards. But I think over the past year, in a way, I've seen a lot more, I think, not just diversity in SBA, but also inclusivity. And so I think for myself, to combat troubles I've had, I've tried especially to have the 1Ls who are there now. And a lot of the tools have stepped up, which is great. So I don't think it's really worried about some of them. But I've tried to have a lot of the 1Ls, especially 1Ls of color or female 1Ls have positions. So right now, we have a 1L female Haitian girl
00:26:45
Speaker
who is making and running our judicial panel for this year, which is an amazing opportunity for her. And she's an amazing girl, she's amazing. And we have other one else who are stepping up to do a fundraiser for Syria. And I think they raised over 600, $700, like with two days of bake sales in just one week. And so it's really nice to see like, there are many people who are discrediting me because of my identity, but at least I know personally that I myself am putting in the work to be like, you know what, you can say anything you want about me, but at least I'm giving people the opportunity so they can shine their light and so they can do so much good for the school community.
00:27:14
Speaker
I think Delilah and I maybe had different experiences because, um, so I, the president before me was Ashley. She's been so supportive of me since my, well, you were very good friends. I could call her right now if I had a question. Um, and then my vice president right now, Hannah, we've become very good friends and, you know, I'm always here for her, you know, when she was going through interviews for her.
00:27:35
Speaker
went on to well, uh, summers and, um, so having that really supportive community and even, you know, Ashley graduated and I can still go to her for advice, even if it is about SBA. But I think the biggest struggle for me is people from the outside always saying, what does the SBA do? The SBA doesn't do anything for us.
00:27:52
Speaker
I, it can't be the only eyes and ears. People need to come to me, come to the meetings and also participate and, you know, let us know of broader issues because I always think of this saying, it's like, we're all in the same ocean, but we're all in different ships. We're all having different experiences. And I don't have the same experience as everyone else, so I don't know everything.
00:28:10
Speaker
And I remember a lot when we were working really hard on the credit requirement. You had so many voices coming at you, and I felt like my keyboard and I really had to keep our head down and try to solve it the best and most respectful way that we could, and trying to tune out the noise, because we want to help everyone. And it's really hard when you feel like you're being criticized, even though you think you're doing the right thing. I definitely agree with that, Caitlin. Yeah.
00:28:36
Speaker
That's a universal experience. You always have those moments where you're like, well, why don't you do it then? If it's so easy to make everything perfect, why don't you step up and do it?
00:28:49
Speaker
But you know, there's a flip side to this too, in that, so we're for women, and we're leading institutions, and then you kind of have to think, gosh, well, we can't always have women do the work, right? You want to make sure that the work is equalized across various spectrum. And so on the one hand, we want to promote women into leadership positions, but you also want to make sure that
00:29:09
Speaker
we're not the only ones doing the work. Others have to take up the mantle and be in charge of committees and help shepherd different initiatives. So for me, I've had to find that balance of making sure that there's enough representation in different committees and other forms of programs, initiatives that we have, and just making sure that women, and particularly women of color, are not the ones doing the invisible work, especially when
00:29:37
Speaker
as Kim mentioned, here at the law school and the faculty end, I would think also the staff end, because of the way that we've had differences in in status is non tenure track versus tenure track, then we've had an equal pay and an equal workloads. And so that has been, you know, that's the forefront of how Kim and I have really tried to lead the school in terms of, okay, what does equity look like in, in this particular
00:30:02
Speaker
I don't know, in this area, such as the assignment of committees or who's going to lead the charge in in a bar pass initiative. Who's going to be part of that? Yes, definitely a unique experience to say.
00:30:15
Speaker
So now that you have both very, very successfully checked law school dean off the list from July 1st, what is both of your next chapters going to look like? Well, funnily enough, we're both on sabbatical next year. We both have a year-long sabbatical next year. And we have plans to travel together to celebrate the work that we've done. And then we're both going to be visiting at the Birnbaum Women's Leadership Center
00:30:43
Speaker
at NYU. So we cannot get away from each other. We are insisting upon continuing to work together. So we'll both be there doing some work next year. And as I said in the beginning, most of what I'm really focused on is just trying to get back into the swing of, I always describe myself as an academic activist. So I'm not a person who thinks of being a law professor as my job is just to sort of talk to other law professors.
00:31:12
Speaker
you know, my job is to really think about how I can use the power and the privilege of my role and this institution to do good things in the world. And I mean, I became a lawyer because I wanted to be a public interest lawyer. So I still care very deeply about being a person who feels, you know, on a regular basis, I say to myself, what have you done today to make the world a better place, which is a lot of pressure to put on myself. But so, you know, I really I really want to be able to, you know, work with some of the folks who are working with the legislature in New Jersey,
00:31:40
Speaker
you know, work with some of the folks who are doing litigation in states that have abortion bans right now, you know, just sort of creating opportunities to be of use. And being a dean is certainly being of use, but it's being of use in a sort of insular way. And so I want to be able to be back out in the world again.
00:32:00
Speaker
I direct a center on immigration law and policy, but the last couple of years I have not been as active in the center. I'm so grateful that Professor Shawnee King had agreed to co-direct the center and he and our program coordinator Habiba Johnson have been really
00:32:15
Speaker
doing such a great job of introducing different programming, inviting guest lecturers so that the center can still provide the kind of interdisciplinary work and research that is designed for. So I'm going to go back to that. When I return to the faculty and do my sabbatical, I'll start doing much more involved research with Professor King and some of our visiting fellows in the center.
00:32:40
Speaker
And that work requires many things, writing, policy papers. I've also testified before the New Jersey legislature and Congress on issues that relate to the center's work. And so I'm eager to go back to that. And there are some things, too, when I reflect on the deanship, there are many things that we did that I wonder how it transfers to other works. So for example, deaning during the pandemic, I mean, talk about crisis management.
00:33:06
Speaker
crisis leadership for about two years. That taught me so many things about resilience and how to manage competing interests and unlimited resources, how to be much more empathetic to students and faculty and staff who are dealing with so much. And there's just so much to be learned from the pandemic and crisis leadership. So it's going to take me some time to truly
00:33:30
Speaker
reflect and learn from that. And I'd love to be able to write about it. Dimashis and I talk about co-writing something, but there's just no time right now. Other than we co-write a lot. Statements or, you know, when we send out messages to students, those are co-written and there's a lot of back and forth and changing here and there.
00:33:46
Speaker
And so I'm looking forward to reflecting on the experience of being a dean during these really difficult, challenging times of the pandemic plus the racial reckoning that we went through. And what did that mean in terms of the legal curriculum that we wanted to develop at the law school? So I'm looking forward to thinking much more deeply about what I've learned during those crises moments all over the country, but particularly as a dean in a law school.
00:34:15
Speaker
That's great. And I really look forward to and hope you both will be able to find the time someday to co-write something because I think that would be absolutely remarkable. And something I feel like we've touched on a lot during the interview, like this theme of like getting back to your roots. And it makes me think about, and I don't know, Delilah, if you think about this too, always having to remind yourself like why we came to law school. Because once you're here, it just seems like there's so many different paths and doors to open and it can become quite overwhelming.
00:34:43
Speaker
Yeah, no, I definitely feel that. Especially in 3L, I'm like, okay, let's remember what happened three years ago, or whenever it was. I guess for me it was four years ago, because I deferred. But what was I thinking when I first applied? It's definitely hard sometimes. So I guess this month, or at least from the New Jersey Women's Law Association, you'll be receiving the Trailblazer Award together, which is very exciting. Congratulations.
00:35:07
Speaker
So in that, how do you feel about receiving it?
Reflecting on the Trailblazer Award
00:35:10
Speaker
Especially together, I guess. How does that make you feel to know that you weren't just a trailblazer in your field, but also you both were in this position? No one has done what you both did. No one is either of you. How do you feel about all that as you're winding down in your time?
00:35:21
Speaker
It's actually a pretty weird feeling. So when I became Dean, like I said, it was a very sort of fast process, right? And as they were sort of preparing to make the announcement that I was gonna be the next Dean, there was like a press release and I was the first woman, the first black person, or really the first person of color, and the first queer person to be Dean at Rutgers Law School in Camden.
00:35:45
Speaker
And so they did this like press release and all the stuff and it was it was a much bigger deal than I thought it would be and just like random you know random people on campus would stop me and be like oh you're the new Dean at the law school congratulations and you know my I always tell this story my
00:36:01
Speaker
The preschool, the kindergarten teacher who taught me how to read sent me an email congratulating me because there was like stuff in the newspaper. It was sort of ridiculous. And so on one hand, I felt like, wow, this is really great, right? Because I do believe very deeply that representation matters and that it's very hard to become something when you've never seen it in front of you.
00:36:19
Speaker
And so I value the fact that I've been able to be that for people. And I love it when I go talk in an event or something and some, often a black woman who's a law student will come up to me afterwards and be like, can I just give you a hug? I'm so happy that you're here. I love those moments. But I also think that there are significant pressures that come along with being somebody who's a trailblazer.
00:36:42
Speaker
People treat you differently. People see the role differently when the person who's sitting in the Dean's suite looks different than everybody else who's ever been in that Dean's suite. You have sort of weird, small things. One of the things that I've talked about with my friends a lot is that
00:36:58
Speaker
like alumni and donors will be much more physical with me than I've ever seen them be with the male deans before me, right? So they don't necessarily put out their hand to shake my hand. They'll give me hugs. And I'm a hugger, so I can handle that. But it's like, you know, I've been at this school for over 20 years. I have never seen you hug a dean before, and yet you see me, and that's like the first thing you do, right? So there's sort of interesting things like that that you have to kind of make sense of and wrap your head around.
00:37:25
Speaker
But I always, you know, I really think of this role, I'm a very big quote person, and I have this quote from Ayanna Pressley that's up in my office, and I'm not sitting in my office right now, so I'm not gonna say it perfectly, but basically what she said is, you know, I'm not here just to take up space, I'm here to create it. And that's really how I have thought about this job, and what I want to leave behind, and what I want to be able to create while I'm here, because I think that I just bring a really different perspective
00:37:51
Speaker
than literally everybody who has had this job before me. And I want to be able to value that and to honor that. And I feel like I've been able to do that over the last four and a half years or so.
Role of Humor and Partnership in Leadership
00:38:03
Speaker
And that part of that has been being able to work with Rose and have this really valuable, both working relationship and friendship. So the fact that we get to receive this award together really just makes it that much richer.
00:38:19
Speaker
that much more fabulous. I echo what Dean Mutcherson said. I feel so honored that we are both getting this award, and I'm glad that we're getting it together. There is something about being first. So on the Newark side, I'm the first woman law dean at the law school in Newark, and I'm the first Asian-American woman dean here.
00:38:42
Speaker
And the first Filipino-American dean in the country. And that was the one that I think I would get emails from people about that. And like right away, I grew up in a small island. I was born in the Philippines, but I grew up in a small island. And then as soon as people heard, it's like, made the news. Island girl becomes dean of a law school.
00:39:01
Speaker
And then one of the reporters there asked if we could do a Zoom interview. And hours later on Facebook, it was all over Facebook. And I had my former high school teacher reach out, two of them actually said, we're so proud of you. And there's something about being the first that is important to many because representation does matter. But what I think about in this position is that we can't be the last. You open the door, you help to open the door, but then you leave the door open so other people can come through. And then you let them shine, you do what you can so that they can come through the door
00:39:29
Speaker
I've really took that to heart in this position. So I feel really good about the Trailblazer Award. I mean, I was surprised. We were both surprised when we got the email. It's not something that we expected. I went to last year's gala. And wow, I mean, that room is so big. And there's just all these lawyers from New Jersey who showed up for all the other Trailblazer awardees last year. And it was impressive. And then to think that
00:39:57
Speaker
Dean Mutcherson and I will be up there too. I'm really humbled that it has happened. So, and then we get to, are we going to be twinning, right? We decided we're going to be twinning then. Yeah. Yeah. I believe that we should wear the same outfit. Okay. They can't tell us apart. We'll see how it goes. Yeah. We are the shortest deans in the country. The shortest deans in the country. We are. That's the other thing about us. Even when you stack us up, we might still be the shortest deans in the country. No. We are small but mighty. That's right. Yes, definitely.
00:40:28
Speaker
That's very funny. Thank you for answering that. I can do more of like a fun question. That one was very fun, but no more tough ones. What was your favorite and least favorite classes when you were both law students?
00:40:47
Speaker
Oh, I hated property. Me too. I hate property. I could not stand property. It was year long. I went to school at American University, Washington College of Law. I loved it. I would not trade my loss of experience for anything. But 1L year, property was year long and I, gosh, I hated it to my core.
00:41:06
Speaker
And then my 3L year, I did clinic. It was land or tenant clinic. And then I fell in love with property. I saw the power of property law in creating access to people of color, how you can use other laws to break down these old, archaic property laws to try to make sure to remove barriers in ongoing discrimination in property law. So then it took my 3L year to finally understand and have deep appreciation for property. Yeah, but I hated it.
00:41:33
Speaker
What was your favorite? So the clinic was your favorite? No. I mean, I like clinic too, but so much work. You're a long clinic. I love the seminar that my professor taught Asian-Americans and the law. It was one of the first in the country. It was taught by Letty Volpe, for whom I was her research assistant. And at the end of that semester, I was her RA, and I took her class. And I wrote a paper that got published at UCLA. And she said, Rose, you should think about going into law teaching.
00:42:02
Speaker
And it wasn't until then that I thought about it. And I'm first in my family to go to college, to go to law school. No one is a professor in my family or a lawyer. And then she was one of the few women of color, professors of color at AU, a very progressive school, but still. And even though I saw she's Asian-American and I still didn't see myself as a professor until she had to tell me that. And so I think for me, that's my favorite class because it inspired
00:42:29
Speaker
the work that I do now with my research in immigration and citizenship and critical race theory, but also because it's what led me to the beginning of how I got to where I am. I love that. So like Rose, I hated property. I hated everything about it. I hated being in the classroom. I didn't like the professor. I didn't like the book.
00:42:50
Speaker
I just, I could not with property. And in terms of favorite classes, I'm going to cheat a little bit because I have a few. My clinic was amazing. I did a clinic called the Prisoners and Families Clinic, and we represented women who were incarcerated who had family law issues.
00:43:07
Speaker
And one of the clients that my partner and I worked with was a woman who was incarcerated at Bedford Hills Correctional Facility in New York, and she was losing parental rights. And we had to at one point go and visit her at the prison and basically say to her, you know, we've been through the whole record.
00:43:24
Speaker
you're going to lose, essentially. And we're like 20-something law students. Neither one of us has kids sitting in this room in the prison and saying, and that will never, ever forget that. And sort of the power of that and the power of being, at that time, a future lawyer.
00:43:40
Speaker
and sort of literally having such a critical part of somebody's life in your hands and not being able to do what you wanted to do for them. I also took a class that was a seminar and it was on, it was sort of like a gender law and sexuality class, but it was taught by Kendall Thomas, who's a black gay man. This is at Columbia when I was in law school there and he's still fantastic and I love him to death. And then it was taught, it was co-taught by Evan Wilson and Evan Wilson at the time, I think he might have
00:44:09
Speaker
still been at Lambda Legal at the time, but he ended up creating an organization called Freedom to Marry, which was completely a huge part of getting us to Obergefell. But this was in the mid-90s, mid to late 90s when I was in law school. And they would just have these really great, you know, so Evan was like the activist and Kendall was sort of more the theoretical person.
00:44:28
Speaker
And we would sit in class sometimes and just the two of them would go back and forth and just watching them do that and just like hearing these super smart people and sort of thinking about, you know, how do you translate what's going on in the classroom into activism, which is what Evan was doing and ultimately was successful so many years later. That was very, very cool. And then I took a civil rights class with Kim Crenshaw, inventor of intersectionality, or at least the term intersectionality. And that was a really great class. And she had gone to law school with Bryan Stevenson.
00:44:58
Speaker
And she had him come in and do a guest lecture one time, you know, talking about his work and, you know, death penalty abolition and all this great stuff. And I just remember, you know, walking up to him after class and he had told these really powerful stories and I'm introducing myself and I'm just bawling, you know, and just, you know, that reminder of
00:45:17
Speaker
what a law degree can do, right? So law can fail us in so many ways, right? Which is why we have all of these people on death row. Too many of whom should not be there, not only because the death penalty is deeply racist, but also because they didn't do the things that they're accused of doing. And, you know, seeing this person who had just committed his life to the work that he is still doing was just so deeply, deeply inspirational.
00:45:42
Speaker
And that, you know, that was definitely one of those moments, right? You're saying you have these moments, you have to remind yourself, why did I go to law school? Bryan Stevenson reminded me why I went to law school, hands down. I love that. Yeah, he's amazing. Absolutely amazing. That is amazing. I feel like there's always that, you know, that one or two, a few professors who always, I feel like I can think of some of my friends and even myself really helped, you know, get you on your path or change the course and, you know, really make you believe what you want to do is possible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:46:12
Speaker
And that kind of goes back to what Rose and I both said, which is being in the classroom, interacting with students, being a mentor, being a friend, being a support system. That's the part of the job that I certainly miss the most, and I think Rose did, too, as dean. Because you don't get to have those kinds of interactions as much as you do when you're teaching a full load.
00:46:34
Speaker
We've had other interactions, too. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the classroom and not always pleasant ones. Right. And I say this coming from a place of I think it's right for students to challenge, to critique the administration, to critique professors. It's their job. I mean, it's and we need to listen and pay attention. And as I think about the last few years, where there are different conversations with students about either the curriculum or things that happen in the classroom,
00:47:02
Speaker
Then you know that students are asking for something that they really care about. And our job as deans is to listen and again, going back to the, how do you manage different stakeholders and negotiate those conflicts? And so there's a lot of lessons to be learned from the relationships developed with students, whether in the classroom or outside.
00:47:23
Speaker
I also, the thing that I will add to that though is I think that there's also a part of it where, particularly because you all are law students, where we also want you to be learning how to be good advocates for yourselves, right? What's the best way to open a conversation with somebody who want to do something for you? And I can assure you it's not a list of demands. That is never the best way to open a conversation.
00:47:44
Speaker
And so one of the things that I have actually found a little frustrating is not always being able to say to students, I wish you had done this a different way, or I think you would have been more successful if. Those are sort of frustrating moments because oftentimes there are things that I would have said if I was a professor, but I won't say as dean. So some people might be getting emails from me on July 1st being like, I wanted to say this to you two and a half years ago, but I'm gonna say it to you now.
00:48:13
Speaker
Well, thank you all so much. This was really a fun conversation, and we know that, you know, you've got lots of stuff going on, so we appreciate that you're willing to take the time to come and talk with us today. Yeah, thank you so much, Caitlin and Delilah. Thank you for having us. This is great. Yes, thank you for having us, and congratulations on your Trailblazer Awards. So exciting, and good luck as you finish up your last few months as our co-teams. Yeah, thank you. Thank you.
00:48:38
Speaker
The power of attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers a prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.ruckers.edu.