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S4E15: SEASON FINALE: On Law School and Public Interest, with ACLU-NJ Legal Director Jeanne LoCicero RLAW'00
23 Plays1 year ago
Co-Dean Rose Cuison-Villazor is joined by Jeanne LoCicero RLAW'00, Legal Director of the ACLU of New Jersey. Jeanne recounts her early advocacy years as an undergraduate in Douglass College at Rutgers University, which led her to Rutgers Law School and on to the ACLU as both on staff and as a client.
The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Production Manager: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/rutgerslaw/messageRecommended
Transcript
Introduction to Guests and Honors
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello, this is Rose Guizan Villazor, Interim Co-Dean of Rutgers Law School in Newark, and this is the power of attorney.
00:00:22
Speaker
This morning, I have the privilege of speaking with Jean Le Cicero, who is the legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union of New Jersey. And she is also one of our distinguished alumni. In fact, just last November, the Rutgers University Alumni Association gave her the Fannie Bear Besser Award for Public Service. We'll be talking a little bit more about that. But for now, Jean, thank you so much for making time for us this morning.
00:00:51
Speaker
Thank you so much. It's really an honor to be here with you today.
Jean's Activism Journey Begins
00:00:55
Speaker
So I like to start off these discussions by asking the interviewee about their origin story. And so by that, I mean, I'd love for you to talk about your backstory, what has motivated you, the work that you do. What are some aspects of your background that has led to where you are today?
00:01:21
Speaker
Um, well, I think there are a lot of threads in that. And so I think I'll start with, with college. I went to Rutgers, uh, Douglas College at Rutgers, New Brunswick. And, uh, and there I really, um, found myself amongst activists and organizers and became one, um, working initially on, um, access to affordable education and really like fighting tuition hikes and trying to advocate at the legislature for more support for higher education and access to higher ed.
00:01:51
Speaker
And then within that, some of my friends had taken over a building as part of a protest, and they were being prosecuted by the university within the disciplinary system. And I went to some of those hearings, and that's where I first encountered Jeff Fogel, who's another alumni and one of the first lawyers I ever knew. And he was defending my friends and fellow activists.
00:02:20
Speaker
It was a really kind of fascinating and interesting time to be an activist, but just watching him kind of step into this role. And so I became a big fan of his right away.
Influences and College Experience
00:02:35
Speaker
And then as part of my activism, the university was moving to implement a new disciplinary policy that was going to be a lot harsher for students. And so continued working and that became a lot more
00:02:49
Speaker
intersectional kind of across campus movements. And I also took a women in the law class. I was a women's studies major.
00:02:59
Speaker
And I found it really fascinating. And I asked the professor, went up to the professor. This is like before the, you know, internet was what, was what it was. We had just got an email. Um, so, um, I went up to the professor to ask like, this is really interesting. What can I do? And she happened to be on the board of the ACLU of New Jersey. And so I was really fortunate enough to get a phone number and you know, had to actually call up and ask questions about an internship and, and was able to intern my junior year at the ACLU of New Jersey.
00:03:26
Speaker
And so those were a couple of the strands that led me to law school. I worked for two years after graduating. And as part of that, I was a foster parent advocate. And one part of my job was to help support foster parents when they were in proceedings in front of what was then DIFUS, Child Welfare Agency. And I found myself really frustrated by the binders of regulations that we were kind of confronting.
00:03:54
Speaker
and really could start imagining myself being in a position to be challenging and changing the laws. So yeah, those are some of the threads that helped me decide to apply to go to law school.
00:04:09
Speaker
Thank you. So I want to dig a little bit deeper. There are different themes that emerged just from what you're saying. You went to Douglas College. So that's the women's only college within Rutgers University. And so I'd like to ask a little bit more about what was it like to go to a women's college within Rutgers University? Why did you choose to enroll in that program? Well, I wasn't really
00:04:38
Speaker
At the time, the university was more of a college-based system, and right now it's a Douglas Residential College, which is a different approach to how the university
00:04:49
Speaker
Universities organized and I happen to be paying a little attention to it because my daughter is a senior in high school and looking at colleges right now So stressful anxiety producing April 1st is coming up and that's a big day for many schools Yeah, I'm here. I'm with you I can feel with I'm here with you with respect to and I want to offer you a hug a virtual hug Yes, this just thank you to
00:05:17
Speaker
Sorry, I interrupted you.
Choosing Rutgers and Law Interest
00:05:20
Speaker
There were a lot of factors when I was looking at colleges, but I really liked the smaller community of Douglas and the kind of supports it was providing to women. I had a tremendous experience and that's where
00:05:36
Speaker
you know, a lot of my, I found fellow activists and people who were really like imagining new worlds. And that was also what led me to the women's studies program, this interdisciplinary approach to thinking about problem solving and learning our history and with a lens, a gender based lens. And so it was a really great time in my life. And,
00:06:05
Speaker
I participated in student government and some of the closest people in my life are from my time at Douglas and Rutgers. Did you grow up in New Jersey? I did. I grew up in Monmouth County near Asbury Park. And so Rutgers, part of the angst about when I think about how I was making those calls was only going 45 minutes away was a little bit of a thing for me.
00:06:33
Speaker
It's one of those decisions where at the time I was a little angsty about it, but looking back, I just can't imagine a better experience. And so you said that you were exposed to legal advocacy when some of your friends took over a building and they had to go through a hearing. Was that what sparked your interest in going to law school? Was that sort of the decision point, say, I'm going to go to law school?
00:07:01
Speaker
That wasn't it exactly. But that was when I was like, wow, lawyers are cool or can be cool. I just I didn't know any lawyers growing up and and didn't and even when I went to law school, I didn't really have a sense of what the legal profession was like. I mean, I often joke that if I knew how much writing was involved in being a lawyer, I might not have gone. But but I think meeting Jeff Fogel was just one of those things where he was he was doing civil rights work in a lot of
00:07:29
Speaker
different areas. And he was just really a fascinating person to kind of watch and learn from. And then, and like I said, I took this Women in the Law class and like thinking about, you know, I remember we had this big like law school book called Women in the Law, I think that we were, you know, reading case cases from and writing up case briefs and talking about the evolution of how women
00:07:54
Speaker
have been treated in the courts, and I found it really cool. Maybe one of the markers was the ACLU of New Jersey internship when I was a junior, because at that time, part of what I was doing was
00:08:11
Speaker
analyzing proposed legislation. I don't, analyzing might be, I might be overselling what I was actually doing as a 20 year old, but I was reading bills and kind of trying to help summarize things. And then another thing I would help with were the letters they were receiving that we call it intake, asking for help from the ACLU. And that was really formative reading some of the letters, especially from people who are incarcerated, thinking about
00:08:36
Speaker
that just the injustices all around us. And for me, another driving value has been holding power accountable. And so I really thought about lawyers as a mechanism for holding our government accountable and keeping the government in check and not overstepping. And so that's partly I learned from my internship at the ACLU of New Jersey.
Activism and Diversity at Rutgers Law
00:09:05
Speaker
It's interesting that now it's come full circle, right? Because now you're the legal director of the ACLU in your journey. And I definitely want to learn more about the work that you're doing there, but not yet. I want to go back still and ask you, so you spent two years after college and then you were an advocate for foster parents. Then you decided to go to law school. Tell us why you chose to come to Rutgers Law School.
00:09:34
Speaker
Well, I was really committed to continuing my activism through my career, right? And so I was looking for public interest law schools, and it was just hard not to go to the people's electric law school, right? Rutgers had a tremendous reputation for that. And frankly, I was putting myself through school, paying my own bills, and the idea of
00:09:56
Speaker
you know, trying to pack up and move across the country or even just to Pennsylvania was really daunting. And so it was kind of the combination of why would I leave my own backyard when there's tremendous resources here. And another formative experience for me as an undergraduate activist was working with law students, it was across campus activism emerged because of some racist remarks that a former Rutgers University president made.
00:10:26
Speaker
I think 1994 or 95. Then president had, there was a recording of him referring to black students being genetically inferior related to their lower SAT scores. And I mean, the students were absolutely outraged. And like I said, we'd been doing some intersectional organizing. We didn't call it that back then, but you know, across campus movements and
00:10:55
Speaker
And so as part of organizing to protest and get the president fired, I come across law students in that. And so I was really impressed with the Rutgers law students. And I'll just tell you the short end of it is that the president didn't get fired. He stayed for many years after that. But there was a real sense of anger and outrage about these comments and about
00:11:24
Speaker
that he could just stay in this role in spite of obvious bias against black and brown students. So anyway, that was another formative experience, but just a great opportunity to meet students from across the campuses, including here at the Newark campus.
00:11:43
Speaker
You know, I actually, I didn't know about that incident. It's hard to, I'm so grateful that our president, President Holloway, is the president. I'm a big believer, I'm a big fan of his and the beloved community approach. But just in thinking about President Holloway as who he represents,
00:12:04
Speaker
from my perspective, I believe in the mission that he has set. And I cannot imagine having a president say racist remarks like that, you know, particularly even back in 1995. I mean, that was in the 90s for him to say that, that president to say that is just, you know, it's disappointing and enraging. And I'm glad that you and Rutgers Law students were part of this pushback. It's unfortunate that he continued to stay
00:12:34
Speaker
within the presidency. But yeah, you're right. The Rutgers Law School, as you know, has this, the Newark
00:12:42
Speaker
the Newark location has this moniker of being called the People's Electric Law School, which stems from the 1970s and the type of activism that students, particularly Black law students at the time, but also other students of color who kept pushing for change and faculty pushing for change in the law school and in terms of who can become a lawyer in New Jersey. And so I'm proud of Rutgers.
00:13:10
Speaker
law school and the role that we play through institutions, especially the minority student program in helping to creating pathways for first gen, for students of color,
00:13:24
Speaker
for black students in particular to become lawyers in New Jersey. And that is who we are. And we're very proud of that. And it makes it consistent with you as the kind of student that you and lawyer that you are now, but also the student that you were at the time when you were an undergraduate and then coming to law school. Yeah. And I have to say, I'm so grateful for the law school's commitment to that kind of diversity in the profession because it made
00:13:52
Speaker
my academic experience so much richer being around people from across, you know, experiences, I was going to say the state, but like across the state across, you know, so many different folks we could learn from each other, you know, we could learn from in the classroom. And that was really important to, um, to my experience and even thinking about, um, you know, taking classes with evening students and,
00:14:18
Speaker
You know, there were a lot of us who worked for many years before coming to Los, you know, I was two years, but there were, you know, I had people in my class who'd been, you know, nurses and doctors and other types of folks who were, you know, coming off of these careers and could add so much to our conversations about the real world impacts of the law. Yeah, I teach.
00:14:40
Speaker
I saw some classes in the evening and I have always been impressed with the part-time students. I have this one physician in one of my seminars a year ago and I don't know how part-time students did it. I echo what you're saying about the diversity of the student body, including in the part-time program. Many of those students are caretakers, full-time caretakers also
00:15:09
Speaker
work full time during the day. Okay, so you start you what can you tell us when you started law school?
Law School Highlights and Challenges
00:15:17
Speaker
I so I graduated in 2000. So I'm doing my math. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Yes. When we when we honored you in November, I think we were talking about we both graduated loss for the same time. I went to different law school. But yes, the 2000 got it. Right. So that would have been September of 97, I guess. Yeah.
00:15:35
Speaker
Do you remember back then when, so it was Y2K, right? That was one of the social issues of the time. What's going to happen in the year 2000? And I don't know if, I remember in law school, we're all thinking, are computers really going to crash?
00:15:52
Speaker
Yeah, actually, for a couple of months, right before law school, I had a part-time job helping a tech recruiter, which I didn't even know existed, but I was helping with resumes and stuff, and the big push then was hiring engineers to make sure that all the computers didn't crash in 2000. So, yeah, it was a big deal. It was a big deal. Nothing happened, you know? Yeah.
00:16:14
Speaker
The world continued, computers didn't crash. Great, great. So tell me about what it was like in your first year of law school. And so you had taken two years off between college and law school. And so now you're back in the classroom. What was that like for you? Well, it was such a privilege. After graduating, I was just tired from undergrad and thought I can't really do more schooling. And then after working in like
00:16:43
Speaker
you know, paying your bills and trying to, you know, just live your life. The idea of coming to a classroom to just think your thoughts and learn from other people was really exhilarating. And like, I experienced classrooms in a way I really don't think I appreciated as an undergraduate. And so, so yeah, it was really exciting to be able to just, you know, I consider, you know, law school my full time job. And, and so I would
00:17:10
Speaker
uh, you know, go to the library and, you know, um, I had a, uh, a study group my first year and, um, it was just, and then I started getting involved in the, you know, the student organizations on campus, like the LGBT caucus and the women's law forum. And I'm not sure if they still exist and whatever it is now. Great. Great. Um, and, uh, and.
00:17:34
Speaker
And so it was just a fun and exciting time. I liked my property class. I'm Professor Pope. It was tremendous. And all of those first year classes, it was hard. Don't get me wrong, but I just really found law school to be a real joy.
00:17:54
Speaker
Okay, so I'm glad you, one of the questions I normally ask is, okay, what was your favorite class? And I teach property law. And so I think property law is the best subject in the first year curriculum, but I know many law students disagree with me because of rules like the rule against perpetuities and all that. I mean, there are all those technical pieces, but I think, you know, the idea of like thinking broadly about what it means to own things and
00:18:21
Speaker
and all of the kind of systems in place to regulate that. It's really fascinating. Yeah. Well, if you feel comfortable sharing this, what was the class that you felt impacted you the most when you were in law school? Was there such a class? I'm not sure. I mean, shout out to the clinics, right? Because I think, practically speaking, they really help you with
00:18:50
Speaker
you know, the rubber hitting the road. But, you know, I'll tell you, one of the classes that I'm really grateful I took was federal courts or federal jurisprudence. I'm not sure what it, if I'm remembering the name of the course, right? But that really helped me think about, as somebody who wanted to be a litigator, that really helped me understand
00:19:16
Speaker
civil procedure in a new way and like in courts and what their role is and what it isn't and and the kind of the barriers and I'm using my hands here but just the restraints I guess on access to the courts and and all of the kind of hurdles that litigants have to go through to to try to vindicate their rights.
00:19:35
Speaker
Yeah, we still offer that class. And it's a popular class. It's an important class, as you're saying, particularly if you want to practice, if you do want to litigating court, and especially in federal courts, of course. What clinic did you do? So I did clinics for two years. And my second year, I did the constitutional rights clinic. And then my third year, I did the women in AIDS clinic. Oh, I see. OK.
00:20:05
Speaker
We don't have the women in AIDS clinic anymore, unfortunately, but we do have those, some of those cases have been subsumed in the other clinics that we have. And I don't know if you and I have had this conversation before, but we are going to be reviving the Women's Rights Law Clinic. And it will be named after
00:20:30
Speaker
Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the family gave us permission to use her name. How tremendous. Yeah, yeah. So we're so excited about that, because especially in, and I'm sure you'll be talking about this later with what is happening with respect to reproductive justice and women's rights. And so here at Rutgers, we want to make sure that we offer our students an opportunity to engage in that kind of work. OK.
00:21:00
Speaker
very exciting to hear. Yes, yes. We're fundraising for that and we're really excited about that coming about the Women's Rights Law Clinic coming back.
First Job and Career Path
00:21:09
Speaker
So let's talk a little bit about what you did after law school. What was your first job after law school? So my first job was a fellowship with the ACLU of Alabama. And and so I went to Alabama for a year. And that
00:21:26
Speaker
I absolutely credit the law school clinics for helping prepare me for that and for them being willing to hire me as a law fellow. And so I was based in Montgomery, Alabama. And at the time, the ACLU of Alabama didn't have any full-time attorneys, so it was particularly challenging to kind of go to this new place. And I fortunately was able to find a terrific board member as a mentor, but it's a place in
00:21:54
Speaker
in a lot of need for civil rights lawyers. And so in the intervening years, all of the ACLU affiliates now have permanent legal staff and have really grown. And so it's been fun to watch the evolution of that as well. Have you lived in Alabama before that?
00:22:14
Speaker
I had not, so I'd never left New Jersey before that. And so part of my thinking was like, I need to try somewhere new. And in candor, I had a job offer with a large law firm. And so I knew I would be coming back to that as my second job. So I kind of, that gave me a little bit of security to kind of take a risk and try something in a new place.
00:22:43
Speaker
I should, I jumped ahead. I actually wanted to highlight that you graduated with highest honors in law school, which is, I mean, that's such an impressive feat. And so I'm glad that I wanted to make sure that I highlighted that about you, including the work, the public interest work that you were doing. You're also quite successful in law school. And so I'd love to just hear a little bit about what you,
00:23:10
Speaker
as advice to some of our students who are listening. What did you do in law school to help you balance the work, the social justice work that you were doing at the time in the clinics and in the classes? How did you balance all of that together? I don't know if I actually remember. I mean, I- It's not that long ago. We didn't- No, it's not. It's not. I will say that I
00:23:43
Speaker
My roommate was also one of my best friends and she helped keep me grounded through most of law school. And so I will say that I think it gets easier, especially for first year students, let me tell you, like it gets easier when you're a second and third year student to kind of have a little more sense of where to spend your time and how much time to spend on studying and different tasks related to your schoolwork. I feel like your first year, you have no sense
00:24:03
Speaker
I had a great support system
00:24:12
Speaker
of like, should I be spending eight hours on this or two hours on that? Because of the way law school is structured with one exam being your whole grade, it was really hard, I think, to figure out how to invest your time. I think especially second and third year,
00:24:35
Speaker
When you want to be involved in public and, you know, when I went to school to do public interest work, I wanted to make sure I was getting the full range of experience. And so I was, you know, you just kind of try to carve up your your weeks and your days, I guess, to do that. I will say that one one thing I did my third year was in addition to the clinic, I was working for a private for Jeff Fogel, who I mentioned earlier, hired me as a legal assistant in part time, very part time work.
00:25:04
Speaker
Um, and he was doing some, um, shopping while black cases, you know, and this is like 20 plus years ago, these, um, you know, people who'd been racially profiled while shopping and, and kind of, um, moved into the criminal justice system. And, um, and so I was working with him on these cases. And one thing I would just encourage people to do is like, look for the lawyers, you know, especially smaller firms, right? That, um, are doing the kind of work you want to engage in because.
00:25:33
Speaker
maybe you can get 10 hours a week working with them to just learn the nuts and bolts of that. So yeah, I don't know if that's a particularly clear cut answer, but there were just so many opportunities. And I think that's one of the hard thing for law students is figuring out where to spend your time. And so I'm not sure I have much guidance on that in particular. Yeah, no, your answer is great.
00:26:02
Speaker
I think many students need to figure out which areas of law they're interested in and how to spend their time, who to be with to get that kind of support system and make sure that they are true to their passion, but also
00:26:20
Speaker
be open to other possibilities. So it's hard. It's not easy for law students to navigate all of that. And so I think what you said is helpful. So then after your fellowship with the ACLU in Alabama, you then went into private practice. What kind of work did you do?
00:26:38
Speaker
So I was in the litigation department and I did a range of work, bankruptcy litigation, white collar defense, some investigations and contract disputes. So it was a wide range and it was a really fabulous experience because there were just so many opportunities to learn and to be trained and by some leading lawyers in the field.
00:27:04
Speaker
And then also to know what it, like when they're almost, it feels like unlimited resources, obviously there are limits, but just like when you have the resources to really chase down every angle to defend, you know, on a client's behalf, I think that helped me understand what was possible. And then of course, you know, to scale it in my current role. Yeah. And then there, you know, another thing that was important for me was,
00:27:31
Speaker
finding pro bono opportunities in particular. And so I had several pro bono matters and a couple in particular were representing asylum seekers. And those were really meaningful in particular because of the close client contact that I had an opportunity to have. And so I just
00:27:57
Speaker
would encourage people in all whatever law practice they have to to really think about pro bono opportunities. And so that law firm was was devil boys in Plimpton. And so I had done OCI on campus and worked for them this my second year summer, and then and then took the job after my fellowship.
00:28:20
Speaker
Got it. Debra Voice is still one of our big supporters of the law school. Several of our students end up going there after law school. And so it's great that you got that training there and the opportunity to still do pro bono work. And so at some point, you then you had interned before for the ACLU in New Jersey, and then you wound yourself back at the ACLU. Can you tell us about
00:28:47
Speaker
that process, what was that?
ACLU NJ Cases and Responsibilities
00:28:49
Speaker
How did you get back to the ACLU? So when I was an intern, there were four people on staff. And so it was a very small shop. And I had really, like I said, it was a very formative time for me. And I became a big fan of constitutional law, both from that experience and from my clinical experience. And so
00:29:17
Speaker
I was working at Debevoise and having a really fabulous experience there. But I always knew I would want to return to public interest work. And so I saw that a staff attorney job opened up and I knew how rare they were. I kind of jumped at the opportunity to return to the ACLU of New Jersey. What kind of cases did you work on as a staff attorney? Well,
00:29:47
Speaker
A whole range of things. Early on, I was working on a case of discrimination against a mom who had HIV. I was working on jail conditions cases. Marriage equality did not exist when I started at the ACLU of New Jersey. And so there was a lot going on related to marriage equality, students' rights, voting rights, other broader anti-discrimination work.
00:30:16
Speaker
One thing I can tell you, though, is early on in my tenure at the ACLU of New Jersey, I was a staff attorney, but then I also became a client, which is to say that when my daughter was born, I was looking so my wife and I couldn't get married at the time. And, well, we actually had been married. I should back up and say we had eloped to Canada because I was married in couples. But the
00:30:41
Speaker
Our marriage wasn't recognized. And so when we came back to New Jersey and she was pregnant and I asked my boss, Ed, like, hey, I need someone to help us make everything legal. I have to make sure that I'm a legally recognized parent to my daughter. Do you know anyone? And there was an attorney who had been volunteering with ACLU in the past who he recommended, Bill Singer, and Bill said,
00:31:10
Speaker
sure, I could do all of this work, but I have this theory that I really would like to try out in a family court. Are you game? And so it ended up becoming an ACLU case where we applied to the family court instead of me being required to adopt my daughter. We asked
00:31:29
Speaker
for the court to apply the presumption of parentage, that it would similarly be applied to a husband whose wife had been artificially inseminated. And so anyway, that was a very formative experience for me because as a client, I just realized how very vulnerable people are to sharing their stories and having all of this information out about you in the courts and in the public. And so we were successful. It was great.
00:31:59
Speaker
our case ended up being published and has been cited in various courts and law review articles. But we share a lot about our experience and our relationship. And it's all in this decision that's now published and now in the world. And it just makes me really cautious and sensitive to people in the trust they're offering us.
00:32:27
Speaker
or the trust we're building together in service of trying to have an impact on and advance the law on civil rights. It was really brave of you and your wife to agree to be the face of that issue. And there's always vulnerability when one chooses to be a plaintiff.
00:32:52
Speaker
or to be the face of a particular cause. And I imagine now as wearing your attorney hat at the time, staff attorney hat, and now as legal director, it's helpful that you have that experience as a client, particularly because it's the ACLU of New Jersey. It is the leading organization pushing for equality, civil liberties.
00:33:20
Speaker
I appreciate the bravery that you and your wife and your family put, you took it on because it's not easy to be in the public limelight like that. And yes, everything is googable these days. So you can, it's all right. Right. Right. Right. Forever to be read. It's in posterity. And so
00:33:41
Speaker
So I'd like to what was it now going back to as a staff attorney and the work that you did before you became a legal director, what are some of the in general challenges the staff attorneys face? Perhaps maybe that that would be the question, you know, I with you as a staff attorney, what did you think were some of the major challenges that you face in the work that you did? Yeah,
00:34:06
Speaker
Well, I think part of it, so I was at the organization when it was a lot smaller. You know, I, when I was a staff attorney, I was the second attorney on staff. And, and so I think part of what I would encourage people who are earlier in their careers is to really think about professional development. And, you know, what, what do they want to have
00:34:27
Speaker
experienced by year five in their careers and how to build that out. So thinking about professional development, especially when you're at a smaller organization, is something I would encourage. But the challenges of doing this kind of work generally are that it's relentless. There's so much of it to do. And I've always said the hardest part
00:34:55
Speaker
is how often we have to say no to people because we have to be mindful of our own boundaries and bandwidth and all of that. Yeah. And so now as legal director then, how many staff attorneys report to you? So in our legal
00:35:12
Speaker
team, we have 12 people. Nine of us are attorneys and three of us are administrative staff members. And so it's it's a bigger work. The legal department is bigger than the organization I came to. And so there's just been tremendous growth. And I would say the growth has not just been in the numbers of people, but also how we do our work. So we also we take a really integrated approach to how we think about trying to solve problems and make New Jersey a fairer place. And so
00:35:42
Speaker
We have a policy team now and a communications team, and we're really trying to use all of the tools available to advance fairness and justice and equality across the state.
Focus Areas in Social Justice
00:35:55
Speaker
Can you talk about the key priorities of your office at this time? Sure. So for a long time, the two big issues we work on are criminal legal system reform and immigrants rights.
00:36:11
Speaker
But of course, increasingly reproductive justice has become a bigger part of our work. We work on student and youth rights. I mean, the ACLU kind of covers a lot of ground. And so, you know, we have our priority issues and then we kind of jump in sometimes to defend or get involved in cases that, you know, are emerging issues.
00:36:42
Speaker
And I would say that a lot of what we do is think about our work through a racial justice lens. Really all of the issues we work on intersect with racial justice because we know that so much of New Jersey and our country's systems are just kind of like with racism kind of in the mix. And so we're always thinking about that angle as we approach our work.
00:37:09
Speaker
And so forgive me, I wish I knew the answer to this, but what's the relationship between the ACLU of New Jersey and National Organization? Do you have to have permission from somebody else in order to pursue the cases that you want to pursue? So no on the permission question. So every state has an ACLU affiliate and we are separately, we have our own board of directors, our own executive director,
00:37:39
Speaker
who kind of set our agenda and priorities. And then as legal director, I work with the executive director and the rest of our team to kind of prioritize particular issue areas and work. But then we have this national ACLU and we collaborate with them all of the time on
00:38:00
Speaker
legal matters on legislation, on all kinds of things. They're a terrific resource because they have a lot of issue area expertise that we can tap into. And so they work across the country and kind of have this terrific national perch to look at the impacts widely. I'll reach out when I have a question about, for example, a reproductive rights bill that's coming up
00:38:29
Speaker
and has that been considered elsewhere? And so we can kind of look to both our national colleagues and also colleagues in other states to kind of help understand the context or not reinvent the wheel or share out expertise. So it's a really terrific network of organizations to be a part of.
ACLU NJ's Operational Dynamics
00:38:46
Speaker
That's really useful, especially these days when there are collaborations are key, right, to advancing movements and pushing for
00:38:55
Speaker
substantive changes in criminal justice and in other areas of the law. If you're the legal director, you work with a bigger team than before, if you had a magic wand, you could be the ruler of the day, what would you do differently with respect to, maybe let's start small, the organization, what would you do so that way you would be able to do better the kind of work that the organization wants to do?
00:39:26
Speaker
Wow, that's a tough question. I think resources is always the issue. I'd love to have my own, not my own, but I'd love for the organization to have more folks who could drill down on, really focus on particular issues. And we have some of that. So we've recently hired a voting rights attorney and we have, we've just hired an attorney to focus on decarceration and she'll be working on some clemency issues. And so we have some,
00:39:56
Speaker
We have an attorney focusing on technology and surveillance and algorithmic bias. So we have some of that, but as I get, I just mentioned three topics, I'd love to have more, right? So that's probably building out particular expertise on the various civil rights issues that we work on would be a dream.
00:40:19
Speaker
Yeah. And then having more resources. After law school, after I clerked, I then worked for a nonprofit organization, a civil rights organization in New York City. And a lot of the work that the executive director and also the legal director had to do was to fundraise money for
00:40:36
Speaker
just to make sure that we were able to do the work that we needed to do and then some to pursue other projects. So I imagine it's the same type of situation with the ACLU of New Jersey. It is, yes, yes, for sure. But we have a lot of support, which is terrific. And when I think about more resources, it just means we could do more.
00:40:59
Speaker
I believe that you hire the ACLU of New Jersey hires law school interns still. I mean, you were an intern before in college, but then you also hire law school interns. We do. Our internship program is really important to me. And so we have law students come over the summer. We also have a relationship with Rutgers where we have the Wank fellowship. And so we have two law students interning with us right now. They're second years. And so we usually have one or two Wank fellows every semester.
00:41:28
Speaker
We also have, our undergraduate internship program has been on hiatus during the pandemic, but we're hoping to have that up and running later this year, hopefully for the fall semester, otherwise for sure in the spring of 24. But interns have always been a really important resource for us. First of all, they bring their tremendous experiences and
00:41:51
Speaker
and ideas, and then they can help us have a bigger impact on our work. And so we have somebody now helping us do some research on a trans rights issue, or they might help us with a brief section or draft a letter. And so we have a queue of projects we want interns to help us with. So we'd definitely encourage students to think about interning with us, and we have a page on our website about that.
00:42:20
Speaker
Fantastic. Well, we're near the top of the hour. And so I'd like to end these discussions by, since many of our listeners are law students or potential law students, I'd love to know whether you have any other advice for students who are particularly interested in working on issues that relate to the priorities of the ACLU of New Jersey.
00:42:49
Speaker
In law school, are there some classes that you think they should be taking or other experiences that you think are helpful to the work that you do? So in law school, I always suggest, and I didn't do this myself, but administrative law. You would not believe how often we are dealing with regulations. And that can really be some of the most burdensome things people experience when it comes to violations of their rights.
00:43:17
Speaker
And so the regulatory state, I think understanding that could be really useful. I also just want to put a pitch out that for folks who might not want to make a career out of public interest law, we still need pro bono attorneys in every part of the profession. And I'll just say, you know, sometimes I need to lean on someone with property or, you know, real estate law experience or with
00:43:43
Speaker
experience in states or you know just there are all kinds of expertise you can develop and still be connecting with the public interest community and lending your resources to advancing public interest in the state.
00:44:02
Speaker
Okay. Well, Jean, thank you so much for making time with us this morning. It was really fun and interesting to hear about the work that you did before you became a lawyer and then while you're in law school and then now as legal director of the ACLU of New Jersey. Thanks so much for making time for us today. Thank you. It's been a real privilege and a fun, fun hour. Thanks.
00:44:27
Speaker
And actually, you're the last interviewee of this podcast. And so thanks so much for serving in that role. And to all listeners, thank you so much for joining us this season. We'll be back again in the fall. And we look forward to introducing other interesting alumni and lawyers and other advocates to all of you. Thanks again.
00:44:54
Speaker
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