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Episode 192: Karn and the Nature of Guilt
362 Plays1 year ago
Hello Podwalkers welcome back to the show. This week Hobbes is here for a solo episode. Many may have noticed that he has been fairly absent since Magiccon Minneapolis. Today he takes a personal dive into depression and guilt through the lens of our canonical Depressed Golem. We have looked at Karn previously (part 1, part 2), and Hobbes talks about his identification with this Planeswalker (well you know... kind of a Planeswalker)
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsor Appreciation
00:00:30
Speaker
Hello Podwalkers and welcome back to another episode of the Goblin Lore podcast. This is Hobbskew. Before we get started today, I want to make sure that we are just going to thank the Grinding Coffee Company. We are just leaving Pride Month. We're kind of at the end of June.
00:00:47
Speaker
Grinding Coffee Company is a minority-owned and LGBTQ-run coffee company that is supporting gamers and supports this cast. It's something that they've been willing to do from the beginning of them being a company is to partner with mainly streamers and they have also been willing to partner with us. So it's something that we really just appreciate the way that they give us coffee for giveaways, for charity events, and it's just something that we're very thankful to have the opportunity to
00:01:15
Speaker
work with them on. So I wanted to make sure that I gave special thanks to them.
Personal Struggles and Creative Impact
00:01:22
Speaker
And so hi, it's Hobbes here. I'm here alone today actually doing kind of a solo episode and part of that is because this episode is very personal or very directed specifically for or with what's been going on with me. So if you've listened to the show you may have noticed that
00:01:43
Speaker
Since the mental health panel, I have not really been around. The only episode that I contributed to, the one on Joy, actually, talked a little bit about what's been going on in terms of my grandmother being on hospice. She has since passed, but at that point was still on hospice. And, you know, I just, life has been kind of chaotic in a way that I have not been able to
00:02:10
Speaker
create and I've not been able to contribute to the cast in the ways that I would like to. And that's actually kind of where we're going to start today. So I mean, this is this has been that was the only episode I've contributed with going back to the panel that we did at the
00:02:25
Speaker
Magic Con Minneapolis, which was just a fantastic time and and I actually something that I'm very very proud of and something that was one of the last really big pushes for creative output that I have felt and There's there's just been a lot going on and I'm actually gonna have a lore tie-in today Since I'm here by myself I just am gonna be talking a little bit about lore, but I'm really gonna be talking about in some ways myself and where I've been so I
00:02:55
Speaker
You know, I struggle with depression. I struggle with anxiety. Depression is something that I've been managing and dealing with since I was 18 years old. It's something that I benefit greatly from the use of medication. I've been on and off antidepressants since I was 18. I've had periods where I'm without them and periods where I utilize them because they're one tool.
Content Creation and Mental Health
00:03:25
Speaker
Part of what happens when I am stressed and overwhelmed is I am somebody that really moves to kind of a freeze kind of response, kind of a shutdown, you know, instead of being somebody who, you know, really just, you know, they talk about like fight or flight when it comes to anxiety and our tendency to maybe have those, you know, wanting to just run away from things or get away from them or to attack them.
00:03:52
Speaker
But there's also kind of a freeze where you just kind of shut down and you kind of move to autopilot. And personally, I am somebody that tends to move to autopilot. I mean, I still get my day to day done. I still am a father. I am still a husband. I am still a psychologist who goes to work. And I believe, you know, I'm able to engage in and be
00:04:18
Speaker
a ethical good therapist who can still perform my job. However, that in some ways is about it. At least that's what it feels like. I mentioned on Twitter earlier, well, basically, when people are listening, this was last week, if you're listening to this, when it's coming out, which is gonna be in the middle of June or the end of June, about content creation in the face of mental health struggles.
00:04:46
Speaker
And in particular, I mean, I threw it out there as an idea for kind of a potential panel to pitch for Vegas, for MagicCon Vegas. Something that still might be possible that I am exploring. I don't know in terms of who's going to be able to be there, who would be able to be panelists. I don't have anything beyond the fact that this idea just came to me of, well, what does it mean to kind of create content in the face of mental health struggles?
00:05:14
Speaker
I have to say just from the outset that I am so thankful that we brought Taya on to the show. I am so thankful for Alex and all the work that he has done on the show and willingness to kind of be supportive. And this is something that we've talked about as a cast. That's the reason we have multiple hosts. It's the reasons that we bring guests on. It's the reasons that we work when
00:05:38
Speaker
each of us is having struggles or we might all be having different struggles that we are able to still put out kind of consistent and I think important and good content. The content that's been coming out as I've been editing it, I am very proud of the work that Alex and Taya has been done. And I am also have felt incredible amounts of guilt because I have felt that
00:06:04
Speaker
I have either cancelled with recordings or I have not done what I should be doing and
00:06:14
Speaker
long time listeners of the show may know that the word should is something that is a kind of a very much a spot for me or a sore spot for me or something that I tend to be very mindful of because it is language that really sets up expectations and expectations that I have been failing and that's just kind of the non-judgmental approach to it is I've not been doing what I said I would do, I've not been doing what I want to do and unfortunately that leads my brain to the shoulds.
Guilt in Narratives and Personal Life
00:06:46
Speaker
I asked on Twitter basically yesterday from when I'm recording this about guilt and guilt within kind of magic lore. And I got tons of great responses. And I think that it's because guilt is a device that is used for telling stories. It's a device that is used for narrative because it makes sense. Because we're putting characters into situations where they're either having to do things that they didn't want to do or
00:07:16
Speaker
you know, they failed. They didn't do what they should have done, especially in their mindset, whether it save other people or, you know, and we have some examples of that, you know, things like Lily, we have even the examples of Erza, Baron, you know, we have people like Chandra, Jace, we have a Johnny who I think is somebody that we're going to be seeing a lot more exploration of guilt.
00:07:41
Speaker
Now that he has been cleansed or at least no longer is Phyrexian, he did horrible things while he was under that influence of the Phyrexians, which I mean, he killed Jea. I mean, he killed people that we, you know, in his basically adopted land of Theros.
00:08:03
Speaker
We have the classic example of Gideon, and this is one that popped up a ton was Gideon. And we've talked about Gideon so much on the show, whether it comes from suicidal ideation to potential PTSD and trauma that he experienced. And I think Gideon is one of those, it's kind of a classic example of why he resonates with a lot of people and why there's many that would love to see him kind of come back in some capacity.
00:08:30
Speaker
We had Teferi, especially with the phasing out of Zalfir. And we kind of see some redemption finally for Teferi. And Teferi has a lot in his history that he had to learn from and grow from to fill guilt around. And these are all different variations on guilt, right? Guilt of either not saving people, guilt for things that they have done, even if it's under the influence of trying to do the greater good, if we want to kind of
00:08:56
Speaker
see Urza that way, or if we want to see the fact that Ajani was corrupted and that's why he did these things, there still is incredible guilt. And all of those are good examples. Guilt is an emotion that really stems a lot of times from
00:09:13
Speaker
expectations and from things that we either did or didn't do. And when it comes to depression, we actually look at guilt as kind of one of the primary symptoms that we can talk about. It actually, though, when we're talking about the symptoms of depression itself, we actually talk about this idea sometimes that it's magnified guilt. It is guilt that is kind of maybe beyond the way that it is
00:09:43
Speaker
self-laming or having these emotions where it's kind of inappropriate and can be seen as excessive. It's actually, that is when we're looking at kind of the diagnostic criteria for guilt, there is, I mean, sorry for depression, there is kind of this idea that the guilt is inappropriate and excessive. For storytelling, a lot of times it may never be that way because there
00:10:06
Speaker
We could say, like, oh, there's reasons, there's rationale, there's these things. But we don't really get to see people kind of experience these emotions, I think, in the really typical way that we would talk about with depression, except for one person or one being, one planeswalker that I could really think of. And this was one that people brought up a lot. And it's the one that we're going to use for today because it's the one that most, I think,
00:10:29
Speaker
parallels or goes along with what I have been experiencing and what I'm kind of thinking about. This is another character that I think has a lot of resonation, resonates with people.
00:10:47
Speaker
because of the fact that they are canonically depressed throughout kind of magic history in a lot of ways. We've actually covered this before. This is in episodes 85 and 94 with our friend Chase, who is a big lover of Karn as well, and they came on and talked
00:11:10
Speaker
with Alex and I about Karn. And Karn called it Karn in the time of cholera, a reference to kind of a book that relates kind of to depression. But Karn, we actually do have storyline of depression. And this is completely built into the character of Karn and into the story of Karn.
Karn's Story and Personal Reflection
00:11:37
Speaker
If people don't know, I would go back to those episodes, 85 and 94, which I will link.
00:11:45
Speaker
he was designed by Ursa so you know this was kind of what the thing was and he was designed by Ursa and Baron to help with kind of time travel experiments because of being made of kind of the silver that could travel through the blind eternities at that point planes walking was you know able to be done without kind of a spark in particular um
00:12:09
Speaker
Karn did not have an innate spark, especially being kind of an artifact and being a golem. So Urza actually built in and designed Karn. Now, we're going to get through a lot of Urza is the worst here, because there are some just horrible things about the way that Urza designed and built Karn. And while we cover these before, I'm going to just kind of go over a little bit of it real quick.
00:12:35
Speaker
So basically, he designed him to be able to experience pain and feelings. And there's almost kind of this thing that he literally wanted Karn to be able to have these almost human emotions, but in particular, the emotions to experience pain. He wanted him in some ways to kind of almost have empathy, but at the same time, it's kind of a really horrible way to do it because it's associating with
00:13:02
Speaker
being able to feel these painful things in a way that is not necessarily designed to make Karn's life better, but to make him more effective and to kind of basically make him understand what is going on.
00:13:17
Speaker
We can look at this as Urza gave Karn feelings. Urza also didn't even bother to name Karn. Actually, we learned that Teferi, and there's a long history between Teferi and Karn, and it was nice in the most recent story for Mother of the Machines to get to see kind of reconciliation there and even almost
00:13:34
Speaker
Kind of recognition of the fact that fairy was at school with them. He was a much younger man. He treated carne horribly He gave him the nickname already shovelhead before carne actually had a a name So he was basically teased and he was just seen as like a play toy by to fairy
00:13:54
Speaker
So Carnes' creator, if we want to look at this from like some sort of a metaphysical existential type thing from either a parent or even a religious type perspective, set him up to basically feel pain and without really giving him names or anything that really kind of showed that love. It was even to the point where
00:14:18
Speaker
Barron steps in and is concerned literally for Karn's mental health. And Barron actually asks Urza to intervene. And how Urza intervenes is once again just such a great analogy for depression. He basically creates a mental cap that limits Karn's memory to like 20 years at a time. And because of the timeline of when this is,
00:14:48
Speaker
This would have had Karn completely forgetting even the human connections and the connections that he had made with Joyra, who was his best friend. There's like kind of this really sad piece to it where Karn is like aware of this. And I want to talk about this. I'm going to step back from lore in just a second because he basically now has his memory capped as a way to what
00:15:13
Speaker
Erza thinks will help his mental health, that's the solution. And he has to every night basically say, Joyra is my friend, Joyra is my friend. And it's his way of kind of trying to ensure that even though he may not be able to remember his times with Joyra, he may not be able to remember everything, he's given himself a mantra to kind of keep in mind that he has a friend, her name is Joyra. This is wild to me because I think a lot about
00:15:44
Speaker
depression and what it can take. And one of the things that it can take is memory. Another kind of symptom of it is difficulty with concentration, difficulty with attention, and difficulty with clear memory. I oftentimes talk about the fact that I am thankful to have
00:16:03
Speaker
Cameras, I am thankful to have kind of even the show and audio recordings that I can go back to Because my memory is not the greatest and in part I really believe because of knowing my own history a lot of this is related to kind of depression Memory becomes less clear
00:16:25
Speaker
I guess it could be in the similar way to what Ursa was attempting to do, to be a protective factor, but there's an awareness. Similar to Karn being able to say Joyrit is my friend and have at least some piece of that, it really connects with me with how I feel and experience my own depression. When it is bad,
00:16:49
Speaker
my ability to easily just remember situations, things. I mean, everything from kind of the just forgetfulness with my keys. I can't find them or forgetfulness about things I've said I was going to do or, you know, I signed up for to be on a stream or I, you know, have plans for the weekend that my wife has to remind me of because I just forget. But it also does make my memories of even childhood and
00:17:17
Speaker
thinking back very difficult. However, there's an awareness that they're there. There's an awareness that something is kind of in the back of my mind and my brain will fight at times and want to really push and say, like, you know, it's there. Just unlock it. Just think about it. You can do that. And if anybody's ever tried to do something like this, that has experienced this, you probably can understand what I'm describing or what I'm kind of getting at, which is that
00:17:47
Speaker
You have awareness. It doesn't mean that you're going to remember and it doesn't mean that it's going to give you clear, you know, ability to, um, I talked about, right. Having photos that helps me. I can look back at them and I can see something similar to the joy is my friend. I can have a visual representation and that kind of kickstart sometimes now doesn't mean that I'm going to get good, perfect recall. It doesn't mean that, but I, but I at least will know that that happened. Um, that can happen with the show here.
00:18:15
Speaker
You could ask me what episodes we've done and I have a very good kind of idea of some of the topics we've covered, some of the lore topics, who we've had on as guests. But there have been times when I've gone back and look at the episode list and I realize that there's just things that are, you know, kind of like I forget. And, you know, I go to tell a story on the show and then it's, it's occurring to me. I probably have told this before because there is a, you know, it was relevant then and it's relevant again. However,
00:18:44
Speaker
I don't remember that I did it until much later. And I think we see this with this mental cap. And that's why I wanted to basically start here because this leads to a period where Karn really is just kind of languishing, I would say.
Struggles with Expectations and Depression
00:19:05
Speaker
This is prior to really anything to do with the Phyrexine invasion or kind of the legacy.
00:19:14
Speaker
After this cap is put into place, he holds the picture of Joy repeats the mantra. I mean, it's just like I said, it has a visual representation. And, you know, he basically is made to be part of a weapon or to be part of something. He, you know, Ursa decided that the weather light, Karn and all the other facts he had built were going to be like a legacy. And in some ways, you know, they were going to be a legacy weapon. And this is where we have kind of Gerard coming into it.
00:19:45
Speaker
It was during this time that Karn is basically, well, tricked into killing an innocent person. And he's basically frozen by the touchstone, if we want to say to it. That basically turned him into a statue. And he was basically just brought aboard the weather light. He was really in the sense of stasis, which, once again, I think
00:20:13
Speaker
While there is a clearer like this is actually like he's basically just turn into a statue, another artifact. It really does fit to me with this idea of kind of stagnation and feeling just kind of that that's what he was. He was just existing.
00:20:32
Speaker
The sad part is when he does get reactivated in all this, his first basic memory, because he basically is kind of in a shutdown phase when he actually kind of comes out of that fog, is remembering killing somebody, killing an innocent. And this basically leads him to take this vow of pacifism, swearing to never again take a life. One of the early arts for the card pacifism actually is just cart. It's one of my favorite arts for it because I think it describes
00:21:03
Speaker
this clear thing where you have this being of power, this being who is actually very much, and I'm going to say this, you know, I haven't kind of got to it yet, but he's a creator at his heart. That is what Karn was designed to do. He is an artificer. He is very much able to control all the colors of magic.
00:21:23
Speaker
He actually becomes a world builder. There's tons that we can talk about. We're literally looking at somebody who has a
00:21:37
Speaker
near complete mastery over artifacts. I mean, the War of the Spark, he touched the goggles of Ralse Eric, and he's able to create a trail. So even his role during War of the Spark was to basically make it so that all the planeswalkers could identify where the planeswalkers were to try to protect them against Bullis' oncoming army. You know, he is a protector. He is a creator. I mean, one of his cards is literally Karn the Great Creator. And
00:22:06
Speaker
this is where this concept to me of content creation is tying in. Because with these other examples, all the people that I kind of gave, there is guilt. And there's guilt over very, I would say, things that they have done, things that they didn't do in a way that is a lot more to be kind of clear and almost feels understood. Carnes is sadder. And I think that is just once again, because we know that he
00:22:34
Speaker
he canonically is depressed. I mean, that is one of the features about him. And like I said, I'm kind of trying not to go too deep into stuff we've already covered, but just briefly, you know, there literally is mention of depression in the stories and in cards related to kart.
00:22:54
Speaker
But it's important to recognize that at his base, he is a creator and he is a protector. And he struggles during the Phyrexian invasion because his vow of pacifism is even then keeping him for what he wants to do. He can't protect people around him because he really is like, well, I can't kill. And he took it to that extreme. He didn't just swear to never take a innocent life again. He swore to never take a life again. And it really has this all or none kind of approach and thought to it. And I believe that this is where
00:23:24
Speaker
you know, if we want to talk about
00:23:26
Speaker
common cognitions, common what we'd call mistakes in thinking or cognitive distortions, all or none, black or white thinking is a very common one when it comes to mental health. It is really this idea that there is no gray. And in part with Karr, and it has to be there's no gray because last time he allowed himself to do something, he was tricked, he killed an innocent. And so it's almost like he moves through this all or none thinking that he can never take a life again, simply because if he does, he could make a mistake.
00:24:00
Speaker
he's not willing to be wrong in that way again. And I think that this is where these should statements, these extreme kind of distortions come into play. And where with Karn, it like leads him to these areas where he gets stuck because now he's not living up to his value system. He's not protecting his friends. He's not being able to do it. And he's kind of, you know, I think this is something that a lot of us
00:24:30
Speaker
have experienced is we set up these rule systems for ourselves, these expectations, and we let ourselves down. We don't live up to them. I should schedule half the people that we talk to at MagicCon Minneapolis. That is a thought that I clearly have. We made some great connections. There's people that we've talked to about episodes that I think are really important.
00:24:59
Speaker
it hasn't happened. And part of this is I am taking this on myself because this is an area that is something that I love to do and an area that I've really taken kind of the lead for and something that has been a very important part of my creative outlet for five years. Five years is a very long time. I don't know.
00:25:26
Speaker
couldn't appreciate that, but to me, five years of doing consistent content. And I will say, we have put out content in the face of mental health struggles in the past, which is why I'm wanting to talk about this, why I think that it's an important topic to be discussing because
00:25:45
Speaker
It is something that we've been able to do in ways that we've built in contingencies and everything else. There's still, even with that, can lead to incredible guilt and incredible feelings of not doing enough and not living up to my value system. And that's really difficult for me to say out loud, even as somebody who advocates for doing this and for talking about it.
00:26:14
Speaker
There's a lot of feelings of stagnation, feelings of loss of creativity and just not really having the same desire and abilities, which leads to this pattern of guilt and shame, which can come along with it that just kind of feeds into itself.
00:26:37
Speaker
I have supportive people all around me. I have supported cast mates. I have supported people who have been guests that are willing to step up. And I love everything about that. And yet, part of me still will then feel guilty that that had to happen, that I feel that I let people down, that I wasn't able to fulfill my role or my
00:27:01
Speaker
I think these rules that I have set, and like I said, I think the foul pacifism is something that is important to recognize because he had to do that. And what's very interesting to me is he actually gets hit in the head, which is kind of the funny analogy, but it breaks this mental cap and everything comes rushing back.
00:27:25
Speaker
Including all the Phyrexians he killed to protect Jollira. He is able to kind of come through this. And even though he is making this willingness, he now has a willingness to kill. And I'm just using this – this is a good analogy of willingness in general. I think that it is a –
00:27:41
Speaker
you know, killing is something that's very different. We see this later on, and we're going to get to Phyrexia because this is an important area. But he has a willingness to, but he's still kind of stepping back. And once again, this is like where he doesn't actually have a spark yet. I just want to kind of throw this out. He actually ends up getting the Power Stones, and that's what it's... It's basically Urza's spark gets put into Karn.
00:28:09
Speaker
And he is the first artificial planeswalker, which is kind of cool, you know, that we know of. It is this idea of taking on sparks. It's actually he gets sparks twice. But anyway, after everything
Perfectionism and Creative Challenges
00:28:22
Speaker
that kind of happens, he basically he basically just kind of like looks out
00:28:29
Speaker
onto the worlds. This is what we talked a lot about. He basically sees things as being horrible. He has this very pessimistic view and this very much mindset that he's trapped in that things are horrible and aren't going to get better. I think there's a real hopelessness within him. And what he does is he retreats and tries to create on his own a perfect world, this mathematical perfect world, Argentum.
00:29:00
Speaker
Most of us know Argentum from later, because Argentum is what becomes Mirrodin, in part because even after he does this, he creates Argentum, this plane of perfection. And I really think, once again, we're seeing this black, it has to be perfect. That is his goal. It has to be perfect where he can't not do it. And I think that this is where we get trapped when elements of
00:29:26
Speaker
content creation in the face of depression, in the face of anxiety, in the face of just whatever people are experiencing with their mental health struggles of feeling that something has to be perfect. And if I can't give it my perfect, it's not worth doing or it's unfair to do it or put out that product.
00:29:44
Speaker
And I'm not saying that things need to be just good enough. I'm not saying that there isn't a, I was about to say there shouldn't be, but I mean it's not to say that I don't want people out there to hear that if you're, you know, that you only, you know, like if you're having these troubles, just put out content. I don't think that that is a great idea because I don't think it will be. But that idea that it has to be perfect and there can't be any kind of wiggle room,
00:30:12
Speaker
something I think needs to be challenged and to recognize because I think it leads to what we end up with with kind of Carn feeling that it had to be perfection and then when he looks out on the world and sees the world is not perfect He actually falls back into depression and he stagnates Like the only thing that like brings him out is actually corona showing up an Argentum and he basically like
00:30:36
Speaker
takes her on the Marari and then turns it into Memnarg, which is very interesting. And then leaves. He leaves the planet behind, not realizing, of course, that the glistening oil is going to basically introduce... He basically leaves a part of himself, and it's a part of himself that is unhealthy. It is a part of himself that is... If we want to look at it from the way Phyrexian is corruption and Phyrexian oil is really this way to destroy,
00:31:07
Speaker
He basically just abandons his plane, leaving it, quote unquote, he leaves it in the protection of Memnarch, really realizing that basically because of the way he did this, it basically starts corrupting Memnarch and Memnarch is designed to become a planeswalker. They describe it as insane.
00:31:31
Speaker
Baminaric really starts taking over this plane. And in fact, Karn has trouble even getting back to it. He can't even pierce the, barely pierces the veil. But I mean, he basically can only get back into Mirrodin kind of almost by like a fluke because he has been shut off from the world that he created. The sad part through all of this is
00:32:01
Speaker
we see that Karn just struggling. He's kind of drifting. He is very much somebody that is prone to stagnation. And when he gets into that stagnant phase, it ends up really causing a lot of, I don't know, destruction. I mean, it causes things to not work out. I mean, he gets, and I think this is something that I think about for myself. There is this concept to me that inaction is still action. It's something that I think we,
00:32:31
Speaker
that I try to talk about people. Like a lot of times when we're overwhelmed, it just feels like not making a decision is really kind of the easiest thing. Not creating is the easiest thing. However, those inactions are actions because it means that things are going to happen around us that we don't then have any control over. Not making a decision, oftentimes that means the decision is made and made by either someone else or made by just the passage of time. And
00:33:00
Speaker
those Jhin just feed right back in. And I think that the times when we're seeing Karn really stagnate is when the times when Karn has struggled the most. And he basically leaves to have adventures again. However, he loses his spark. This was when they're kind of mending the rifts. He ends up losing the sparks and he
00:33:27
Speaker
basically retreats back to Mirrodin, now with no protection of the spark at all.
00:33:38
Speaker
makes this moment of sacrifice, and immediately the glistening oil that was there from Xantus' heartstone starts to take hold. So he flees right back to Meridin into its core. He retreats, and I want to take this, so like he locks himself away. He retreats back to the core of Meridin, like hidden away, locked away from basically everything.
00:34:01
Speaker
This is where literally he starts becoming the father of machines. He creates, but his creations are corrupted by being by Rexionized and he creates the Praetors. He has really, you know, Golisa comes back to him because he had left her, basically her, and Slobad,
00:34:21
Speaker
We're not going to get back into the way Slow Bad was ceremoniously killed off stage as soon as we return to the storyline because it was... Yeah, I'm still struggling with that. Anyway, this is to say, Karn comes back.
00:34:37
Speaker
The way he's left Mirrodin, he had left it under Glyssa's control, but because he was not really realizing what had happened, things are corrupted. And he now comes back to his perfected world that he already had known was not in good shape because of Memnarch. He comes back to it again, and it's even worse. And he retreats. He retreats completely and locks himself away in the center of Mirrodin's core.
00:35:05
Speaker
He is attempting to create almost just out of corruption. And this is where we get into the concept of where, I think, we'll talk about the Phyrexians and we can talk about the oil and what it does. But he gets, he's trapped. He is basically, and I, yeah.
00:35:35
Speaker
He sends out for friends, he basically, because he has this ability to send out probes and he, it's funny, he talks about, he basically has a moment of clarity or a moment where he is able to think and he realizes that this is not good. And to me, again, these depictions of Karn just hit me when it comes to thinking about depression and in particular, my own depression.
00:36:02
Speaker
where there's moments where it pushes through, there's moments of clarity, there's moments where I'll get a burst of energy and want to create. And I'll end up retreating back after that. And those feel like, they feel like crap in some ways. And
00:36:23
Speaker
He calls out for help. I mean, I think that this is something that is not me projecting too much onto a story that isn't implicit, is that he calls out for help. And he ends up getting it. He gets it by Vensor and others coming to basically try to rescue him.
00:36:48
Speaker
Vensor ends up giving up his spark and this is another moment where I think we're really seeing Kind of the sad nature of Karn because he now has another Spark given to him and this time it was it was given to him by a friend and it was given to him Basically giving up his life again. He's basically He straight up like
00:37:17
Speaker
battles them and leaves. I mean, he tries to battle the Phyrexians. There's all this work ahead and then he leaves. He basically takes off to kind of join the Gatewatch, not officially. He takes off and helps out on Dominaria. We see him in the War of the Spark. We see him
00:37:35
Speaker
coming back with Darmenario United because now he is trying to fight the Phyrexians and there's all of this going on. I'm jumping way through the story because Karn in some ways was a background character. It almost had this kind of, to me, very much a feel of that pacifist. And yes, he's there, he's doing things.
00:37:56
Speaker
I really feel like a lot of what he is doing is kind of avoidance. They give a reason for it, that he's having to help with all of these other big multiverse things, but there's an avoidance. There's kind of this, yes, I need to get back to deal with this. I need to get back. I need to get back. I need to leave. I need to continue my effort to destroy new Phyrexia since the Phyrexian have taken over my creation. I need to go back.
00:38:24
Speaker
it takes a long time for him to get there. And with all of this, he basically ends up getting captured and unfortunately betrayed by sleeper agents at Johnny Goldmane. I'm jumping way through this because I want to get to the end of where we have right now with Karn.
00:38:50
Speaker
And I don't know, I don't know as I'm talking through this, I don't know if this is going to help me be a good analogy for where I'm at right now or not, because Karn is left at a very interesting spot.
00:39:03
Speaker
So this was something that we talked about with Kira, so K. Arsenal Rivera, about her story was, Cardin's basically ahead for a lot of it. He is being forced to watch what his creations are doing, and in particular with Ella Schnorn. And Woody is finally freed, finally able to get a body back because of his ability to kind of create and to pull things
00:39:34
Speaker
bring the metal together. He kills Elish Norn. I mean pretty brutally. He like basically like smashes her head and he
00:39:47
Speaker
you know it just this really really kind of like sad experience where he has to destroy what was right ahead of him um i realize it is like talking through this like it's gonna sound like something like i'm like i'm like i don't want anybody to think
00:40:05
Speaker
I'm realizing this could sound like 40 minutes of me saying I'm leaving the show or something and that's not the point. I just want to be very clear with that. It's not like I'm like executing something in the same way that Karn did. I just think that Karn is really, really
00:40:20
Speaker
good example in general. And I mean, there's this idea that he's fully taking responsibility and that's the action of it. But the sad part of where we lead Karn is he now gives up his
Responsibility, Sacrifice, and Recovery
00:40:33
Speaker
spark. And we can talk about this whole de-sparking thing that comes in aftermath, like who knows what would have happened. But he willingly gives up his spark again to help uncomplete Ajani and Nissa.
00:40:47
Speaker
The sad part to this is like he's he's also giving up the spark of Venser. I mean, it's not his because he doesn't have an innate spark. So he's giving this up in kind of a sacrificial way. And I think this is very story kind of that we would expect from not necessarily like a trope, but, you know, I mean, it is the sacrifice idea is something that we talked about on here in the past. But I just want to, you know, he's the creator who's then giving up to help others and
00:41:15
Speaker
It leads an interesting direction from where we go from here with Karn and where his story goes. Especially, you know, we don't know. Well, we don't know, right? I mean, that's the whole point of where we're at right now. We've taken a break. We're on Lord of the Rings. We're better commander masters. We're still a little away from returning to mainline story, which I believe will be with Eldraine. And we don't know. We don't know what we're going to see. You know, Aftermath showed us that
00:41:39
Speaker
There's these points that are still open. They may be able to travel without being a planeswalker. There's what the planeswalker means. It doesn't mean people are losing sparks. Where we leave Karn at Mother of Machines is basically back to a silver golem, back to what he was created to be.
00:42:05
Speaker
he has made an active decision. And I think that that's where I'm kind of speaking to that feels for me is that there's this concept within mental health recovery of committed action, which is this idea that you're just committing to action. It doesn't tell us once again, if you're going to be successful, it doesn't tell us that you're going to be
00:42:25
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, this is where that do or do not, there is no try concept comes in is you're committing to action. He committed to giving up his spark. He took an intentional decision to pass on. And, you know, there's a lot wrapped up in his emotions, his guilt, you know, that's almost like, you know, if we want to buy into the concept of catharsis of where he smashes the head is taking responsibility. Either way, he takes intentional committed action.
00:42:54
Speaker
That's where I feel that I am at right now. A lot of this has been born out of grief. I am leaving this weekend to say goodbye to my final grandparent, one that helped in some ways kind of raise me in the sense that that was the grandparents that we spent the most time with when I was a kid. They're the grandparents, and my grandfather has been gone for quite a while.
00:43:21
Speaker
who just passed. She's from England. I was afforded the opportunities to go to England as a kid and meet family and have that opportunity to travel and that privilege because of my relationship with her and my grandfather. And I spent weeks with them during summers. They were the ones that we stayed with whenever we went for Christmas. They're the ones we spent every holiday with. And I'm still processing
00:43:49
Speaker
And this was compounded by the fact that straight after, basically, kind of Minneapolis, she wasn't doing well. Things were kind of thrown into chaos.
00:43:59
Speaker
I've had to make multiple trips out to the west coast because we also had things planned for vacation. It's just life. And it has just felt like even before all of that, I know, and I would say six months or so, you know, I feel like I've been on autopilot and I'm actually conceptualizing this as the concept of passive pilot because I mean, with autopilot, I feel like there's times that I'm able to do a lot more. I feel like with passive pilot, I've really been just kind of
00:44:27
Speaker
getting day to day and making sure that my duties are done and that I'm able to be the places that I want to be. And I might have a moment that's pushing through, but I've just been struggling with depression in a way that I'm used to, in a sense, or that I'm sadly comfortable with or that I know. I think a lot like Karn.
00:44:50
Speaker
I'm aware of it. And that's where I get back to that idea of the creator, creating people to feel pain and other things. This just really resonates with me. And as I'm going through the story, this whole episode has been a place for me to process. And I'm thanking you as the people listening.
00:45:12
Speaker
And I'm thanking my co-hosts for giving me the opportunity to take this time for myself because this is something that I really needed. But this is me processing and it's me starting to process grief. I'm going this weekend to say goodbye. That is what I am leaving to do for my Nan. I'm giving a eulogy. I'm being part of that experience.
00:45:34
Speaker
I'm teaching a four and a half year old how to memorialize people and to celebrate that which is gone or those that have gone.
Grief, Community Support, and Milestones
00:45:46
Speaker
And it's also left me in this place of feeling that my creative output has really not been where it should be again. And
00:46:01
Speaker
I'm coming out of this. I really do feel that I am. We are scheduled to record later this week on things that are really important to me. We're starting to talk to guests again. We're still on kind of, you know, we're not like we have things planned out as much as we have in the past. I think we're moving that direction. And I cannot say thank you enough to Taya and Alex. I just can't. I just, I, this is,
00:46:27
Speaker
my opportunity to in a way that they can hear it where I'm not just typing it out. Um, and yeah, I could do a call with them. I could, I just, it's difficult for me and it's been difficult for me to admit that, you know, that where the struggle has been to the level that it has been. And like I said, uh, I want to thank all the people who engaged with my discussion yesterday about guilt. And like I said, as soon as it kept returning to car and I realized just how much that
00:46:57
Speaker
resonated with me. I even kind of said at some point, I think that, you know, as I told, I said all these examples are great. Karn is the one that is the one because Karn is the one that is fitting with exactly what I am talking about.
00:47:12
Speaker
Realizing when I was doing kind of the research for this episode and kind of using things like the gamepedia and looking at cards cards and that great creator name Standing out to me that it's almost like his function is to be a creator I'm not saying that's my function, but it is a value system that is important to me and I just want to thank people for You know, hopefully listening to this like I mean, I guess once again, even if you didn't It doesn't matter I did this and it's out there and
00:47:42
Speaker
Yeah, I'm just gonna kind of end here because I'm not really sure.
00:47:49
Speaker
else to take this. Just thank you. And we've hit five years. That's something to celebrate. So go check out the cast, check out our Twitter. We are giving away a box of double masters, you know, retweet to the show. We're also soliciting from people to listeners. Anybody, you know, there's things that the show has resonated with you for. We'd love to get an audio clip of just
00:48:13
Speaker
you know, anything about what the show has either meant to you or things that it has helped with and just, we want to celebrate our fifth anniversary and the people that we make this show for. So, thank you for coming along. And that's our show for today. You can find all of the hosts on Twitter for now. Hobbs can be found at HobbsQ, Tay can be found at Taeya Transcendence, and Alex can be found at Mel underscore Chronicler.
00:48:37
Speaker
Feel free to send us any questions, comments, thoughts, hopes, and dreams to the Goblin Lord Pod on Twitter or email us at goblinlordpodcast.com.
00:48:47
Speaker
If you would like to support your friendly neighborhood gobsugs, our link tray can be found on our Twitter account and in the description of today's show. This has everything from various discount codes to the link from our Patreon. The music for today's show was by Wintergotten, who can be found at vintergotten at bandcamp.com. The art was done by Steven Raphael, who can be found at Steve Ruffle on Twitter. Goblin Lore is proud to be presented by Hipsters of the Coast as part of their growing Vorthos content.
00:49:15
Speaker
Check them out on Twitter at hipsters MTG or online at hipstersofthecoast.com. Thank you for listening and remember goblins like snowflakes are only dangerous in numbers.