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S3/Ep 13: Is Cutting Off Family Weakness Or Wisdom? ? The Psychology of Family Estrangement
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Family estrangement is one of the most quietly common—and profoundly misunderstood—experiences in modern life. With 38% of American adults currently estranged from at least one family member, the question is no longer if this is happening in our communities, but how we help people navigate it with dignity, clarity, and compassion.
Dr. Celeste Simmons, Family Forensic Psychologist and expert at the intersection of mental health, family resilience, and the court system, shares what estrangement really looks like and what it means to protect your wellbeing when the relationship causing harm is the one you were born into.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to season three of the Guardians of Hope podcast. We are a community of parents, educators, health, legal, and tech experts dedicated to positively impacting children's lives. The thoughts and opinions of my guests are not my own. This is a platform for sharing.
00:00:14
Speaker
Welcome everyone.
Family Estrangement Statistics and Insights
00:00:15
Speaker
So we've discussed family estrangement before in previous episodes, but the statistics are so striking. 38% of American adults are currently estranged from at least one family member, 24% from a sibling, 16% from a parent, and 10% from a child. A recent Cornell study found that 27% of adults are estranged from a family member, and the numbers continue to rise.
Meet Dr. Celeste Simmons
00:00:43
Speaker
Today we are joined by Dr. Celeste Simmons, a family forensic psychologist who works at the intersection of mental health treatment, family resilience, and court systems.
00:00:56
Speaker
Through her work with family court jurisdictions, she regularly encounters individuals navigating estrangement, not because they gave up too easily, but because going and ongoing contact creates genuine psychological harm.
00:01:13
Speaker
Dr. Simmons, welcome. Thanks so much for joining me today. Thanks for having me Yeah. Well, why don't we start by discussing your background and what led you to specialize in this work?
00:01:27
Speaker
So it's funny because people ask me that question and I kind of say, well, like i sort of stumbled into it. I, I ended up getting this job for juvenile drug court back East and i loved my work and my supervisor at the time had a degree in forensic psychology and um I had just graduated with my master's and in clinical counseling. And, and she's like, you know, if you're thinking about going back to school, you should really look into forensic psychology because this is what it is. And at that time, For people who aren't familiar with a drug court, it's kids who are getting in trouble with like possession or use or things like that. And so you're going to court with them, but you're also providing treatment for them and families and checking in with probation. So you're sort of doing this wraparound sort of service as it relates to why they ended up in the court system. And so I really, really love that work. I did look into forensic psychology. i ended up finding a program that allowed me to do both clinical work and research.
00:02:29
Speaker
And so here I am.
When is Cutting Off Contact Healthy?
00:02:31
Speaker
Yeah, well, we're glad to have you because we have a couple of things um I want to ask you So first, let's talk about what it means when you're cutting off a contact. So help us understand when cutting off a contact is actually the mentally healthy choice. And what does ongoing psychological harm look like in family relationships?
00:02:56
Speaker
So I think it depends. And to answer your question, I'll kind of give you an example. Sometimes I have particularly young adults come in or I've had young adults come in and say, you know, I'm struggling with depression, anxiety, whatever it is, and come to find out. the things that are fueling their mood symptoms are family related issues. And so a lot of times there's, yeah I guess not necessarily an intersection, but there's sort of like a fork in the road where there's a disconnect between whatever family members they're having the conflict with, whether that's parents or siblings or whatever it is, they just, they look at things differently.
00:03:36
Speaker
for for how the relationship should be. So let's say, you know, I'm a horrible sister, right? And I just treat my sister horribly, but I think that because she's my sister, she should just deal with it. And we should, you know, just pretend like I never do any of those things. Whereas you, my sister might be like, wow, I'm feeling depressed and anxious. I can't keep doing this. I'm struggling with my job. And so for you it's not sustainable. And so your viewpoint is that, you know, i need to, I need to keep my distance in order to like be healthy in order to have my life in order to move forward where me I'm sort of like, well, i can I can do these things because you're my family and it doesn't matter. You need to stick around. That's what you should do. And so cutting off could be you saying, you know what?
00:04:24
Speaker
I know you're my sister, but I really need to keep my distance from you. I'm i'm choosing not to and engage in this dynamic anymore. But it could look a lot of different ways. It depends on what people are are coming in for and what people are struggling with.
Navigating Grief and Relief in Estrangement
00:04:38
Speaker
Yeah, and we'll we'll dive into that in a little bit, but let's talk about the feelings that this brings up, right? So estrangement brings up grief and relief simultaneously for a lot of people. And learning to live with that coexistence is complex, um extremely personal.
00:04:57
Speaker
Can you walk us through what the paradox feels like for people and why it's so hard to hold both emotions at once? Yeah, let's continue with the same example. So let's say, you know, you decide to make this decision, you're you're not going to interact with me in the same ways that you have been before.
00:05:15
Speaker
The grief that comes with that, and I think a lot of times people think about grief as someone passing away. But when you have a relationship with someone and you expect that relationship to go a certain way and you realize it's never gonna be what you want it to be, that's grief, right? That's a loss. That's a loss of this hope in this relationship that you're not gonna have.
00:05:36
Speaker
And what makes it so difficult is that that person is still alive, right? And so whether they're willing or not or not capable, whatever it is, sometimes that grief is really, really complex because it will never be what you want it to be. And you get that constant reminder of that grief on a daily basis. Whereas if someone actually did pass, you might get reminders for their birthday when that comes up or memories or things like that. But so that can make it pretty complex. And at the same time, when you make that decision and say, you know,
00:06:12
Speaker
i'm not I'm not going to engage in this dynamic anymore. You get that immediate relief because now you don't have those things weighing on you. You don't have that person engaging in these dynamics with you that are causing you more anxiety excuse me more anxiety or more depression or or whatever it is that's coming up for you. so it can be very, very complex. you're You're grieving someone who's still alive. And while you're setting boundaries so that you don't have these, you know,
00:06:41
Speaker
intense emotions or or whatever it is that's happening with you anymore, you feel that relief. It still doesn't doesn't take away that grief piece. Yeah, it makes sense because obviously this is a person who is close to you, who you love enough where they're triggering feelings. So having both grief of losing that person in your life and um dealing with the emotions, it's it's difficult. and it's And like you said, it's important that people hold space for both.
Understanding the Relationship Entitlement Framework
00:07:09
Speaker
So what about listeners and people who are struggling, whether make contact with that harmful family member or create distance, right? Because it's not easy, dr Celeste, whether it's an adult child considering cutting off a parent or a parent dealing with an abusive adult child, do you have a framework or some advice for how to help people make this decision?
00:07:37
Speaker
Yes, and actually, i have a framework I've been using for years. I just named it. It's like a relationship entitlement framework. And basically, you have two ends of the spectrum and then some things in the middle. And lots of us find ourselves in the middle. But on one of the spectrum is total entitlement. So the example I gave you earlier, I'm your sister.
00:07:56
Speaker
You deal with it. You do whatever because I'm your sister. Right. You just put up with it. We're family. You you do whatever you need to do for family. And then on the other end is the complete opposite is like, i don't care who you are, you're not getting access to me if this is not healthy, period. But a lot of times, a lot of us find ourselves in the middle, which we were just talking about, which is, you know there's family, I feel like there's some some sort of entitlement here because we have this relationship and at the same time, um There also maybe needs to be some some boundaries around what that looks like. And so I'll ask people, you know, when it comes to relationships, what is it that you expect from people? and And people will tell me whatever that is, you know, they want reciprocity. They want people to listen to them, to be there for them, whatever it is that's important to them. And then I say, okay, when it comes to family, are those expectations the same? you know Well, of course, right? A lot of times it's it's of course. And even more, maybe sometimes the expectations might be higher. And so then I'll say, you know whatever it is that they're observing, okay, so this person, your your family, this is the expectation that you have of them. Where do they fall in that space of your expectations and these things that you need?
00:09:15
Speaker
Okay, so now that we've figured that out, what does that mean for you? So either that person is is able to sort of fall in this realm of what's important to you, or they're not able, or they're not willing, or or whatever.
00:09:31
Speaker
um And so i can't answer that question. I don't usually know the folks that people are talking about, but they usually have the answer. And it's usually not easy, but definitely it comes simpler for people to to figure out what it is that they're gonna do based on their level of distress or whatever it is that they're dealing with. And so,
00:09:52
Speaker
I use that, that um the family, the family, or it's really really a relationship entitlement continuum, because again, we're not, we don't all have the same values. We're not all in the same place. But if people sort of reflect that back, they're able to, to sort of think about what it is that ah their limits are.
00:10:12
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. um We'll switch gears a little bit and talk about an interesting part of your work that
Challenges in Child Safety and Legal Reunification
00:10:21
Speaker
you do. So you, you know, it includes reunification cases and co-parenting situations where one child may live with one parent and is estranged from the other parent.
00:10:34
Speaker
Now this is complex. um How do you deal or balance a child's need ah for safety? with the cultural and sometimes legal pressure to maintain relationships with both parents.
00:10:48
Speaker
Well, I, you know, I love the word complexity in this one, because as you say that, I i just think about um cases where reunification has been ordered by the court. And unfortunately, at the same time, there's been like restraining orders.
00:11:06
Speaker
Right. And so it's like, well, I, I can't actually physically do that because, you know, there's this thing in place that's protecting this person's safety. And yet we're also trying to force them to, to reunify. Now, it's complex in that some things are more severe than others. And some things involve just a parent and a parent. And other things involve children with the parents. And so so that piece of it is is very complex.
00:11:34
Speaker
I think reunification is tricky in itself because I think there's an expectation that if you come to someone like me, reunification is your destiny, right? And not to be funny, but like sometimes that's not always appropriate.
00:11:48
Speaker
And it's not always the outcome. And so I've also had parents start in reedification and decide, you know what, this is not good for my kids, like on both sides. So let's say children are aligned with one parent.
00:12:02
Speaker
That parent might be saying to me, hey, you know what, my kid's having stomach aches, they're having anxiety, um you know, they're not wanting to get out of bed, they're not eating or whatever it is that they're noticing. We have to take those things into account as we're going through this process. So that might not be helpful for the kids, but it also happens on the other side where it could be the parent who's estranged. I like misalignment. I'll kind of explain that a little bit more in a second. but,
00:12:29
Speaker
but um It could be the parent who's estranged, who's like, you know what, I can see the impact that this process is having on my kids. I think we need to take a step back. And so I think both perspectives are important. And then, you know, sometimes you get into the whole parental alienation piece that needs to be more researched. People are still developing tools on how to identify that. So that's a ah whole and nother thing in itself. But one of the things I like to talk about too is alignment versus is misalignment. so
00:13:00
Speaker
Let's say, you know, i have three kids and, you know, they don't they don't really want to be bothered with the other parent. But every time I'm with my kids by myself, I'm talking about these dynamics between me and their other parent.
00:13:15
Speaker
And so they don't want to say things to me because they don't want to upset me. And so it's not necessarily that they're upset with their other parent, but more just that they're aligned with me because they don't want to upset me. And so we have to be careful about things like that too, because sometimes estrangement can become about the parents and not really considering what's happening with the kids. So I think we need to be really careful.
00:13:41
Speaker
Yeah. Okay.
Healthy Boundaries or Lack of Resilience?
00:13:43
Speaker
Dr. Celeste, that I will say there's been a lot of talk about adult children cutting off parents. um Oprah recently dedicated an entire episode to estrangement and articles are everywhere. It's all over social media becoming increasingly normalized, especially among younger generations. So some view this as a healthy boundary setting. Others see it as a generation lacking resilience. or being too quick to cut ties. So as someone who sees both sides in your practice, what's your perspective?
00:14:19
Speaker
Do you think this is concerning, empowering, or do you see like a line in between? I think both can be true. I don't think one or the other. i think sometimes we don't have enough resilience, right? And we don't give things a try. We don't want to do it.
00:14:35
Speaker
It feels like too much effort, whatever the case might be. But the opposite can also be true, where sometimes setting those boundaries is good for your mental health. And so let's say, you know, I grew up in an abusive home and um i end up going to therapy because I have anxiety. I'm on edge all the time. i'm hypervigilant. Maybe I have PTSD, so post-traumatic stress. And it is really difficult for me to function. And then in therapy, I discover I'm having flashbacks of things that happened in my childhood. and
00:15:11
Speaker
and actually some of that stuff is still happening. And so i literally can't function as a human person because these experiences that I'm having are are taking away from me. They're chipping away at who I am as a person. and so if I can't function and it it causes me to be in treatment and that my health is not okay I think that would be a hard thing for people to say, you know, you need to stick around and and still deal with it. I think most people would agree that maybe some distance or cutting off would be appropriate. Now that's maybe more of an extreme side.
00:15:49
Speaker
um and And like I said before, everything's on a continuum. But sometimes people experience things that really impact the way they function, that impair the way they show up in the world. And if that's a non-negotiable for you and there are things that you want to accomplish that you can't because this is a constant thing in your life that's that's really, really impacting you, then how can somebody else say that, you know,
00:16:15
Speaker
you're not resilient enough, you need to stick in there. i think it's a personal decision. i think everybody's allowed to have their opinions about it. But even though I'm saying this to you right now, even if someone was sitting in the room with me, I don't get to make that decision for them. They get to decide what their limits are, what they can tolerate and and what they're going to do about it. It's a personal choice.
00:16:37
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. i have just one more question
Respecting Personal Boundaries in Estrangement Decisions
00:16:41
Speaker
for you. And it's if you could leave listeners with just one more thing, whether they're considering estrangement, currently estranged or supporting someone who's going through it, what is the most important truth you'd like them to understand about family estrangement and well-being?
00:17:00
Speaker
So I think I would just leave the point of of what I just said, basically, which is this is a highly personal choice. So if you're supporting someone who's considering this and you don't agree with it that's fine. You don't have to agree with it.
00:17:14
Speaker
um And at the same time, you know, you you still have to show up and and be the friend or partner, whoever it is, for the person who's making the decision, because we we never really know what people are going through. we think we do, even though we might be close to people and we have an idea, we don't ever really know what's happening inside of someone. And so just understanding that it's a personal choice, whether we agree with it or not, or maybe it's the flip, maybe you're like, oh my goodness, you really need to keep this person out of your life. And they keep having this person in their life and you can see that it's diminishing them, still being there and showing them that you care about their wellbeing from from that angle is important, right? Cause you could disagree there and and think the opposite. But I think the big thing is just recognizing it's a highly personal choice. We're all allowed to have our own opinions and that we all get to dictate for ourselves what our limits are, what our boundaries are gonna be and how we're gonna move forward.
00:18:12
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Dr.
Contacting Dr. Celeste Simmons
00:18:15
Speaker
Celeste, is there a website or any information you can provide viewers in case they want to learn more about your work or contact you?
00:18:24
Speaker
Yeah, so my my website's really easy. It's www.drceleste.com.
00:18:32
Speaker
p d dot com And so on there, you can just request a book. I do something what's called a strategic consultation. So it's basically like mapping out what it is that you want for your life and figuring out the underlying things that are getting in the way for you not getting there.
00:18:49
Speaker
So that's the easiest way to do it. Great. Dr. Celeste, thank you so much for your time and for discussing this really personal topic with us today. I appreciate it.
00:19:01
Speaker
Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for having me.