Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to season three of the Guardians of Hope podcast. We are a community of parents, educators, health, legal, and tech experts dedicated to positively impacting children's lives. The thoughts and opinions of my guests are not my own. This is a platform for sharing.
Speaker: Okay, welcome everyone. Before we dive into today's conversation, i want to share something deeply personal with you. When my son was just two months old, I made one of the most terrifying yet necessary decisions of my life.
Speaker: I left a verbally abusive and aggressive relationship. Walking away with a tiny infant and facing disbelief from relatives and friends who couldn't see what was happening to me behind closed doors was overwhelming.
Speaker: The trauma was real and the fear was paralyzing, but I knew I had to protect both of us. What followed were some of the hardest months of my life.
Speaker: I was a new mom trying to heal from emotional wounds while learning how to do it all on my own. I had to rebuild my life while ensuring my son felt safe and loved.
Speaker: That experience taught me that sometimes the most courageous thing we can do as parents is choose our children's well-being over our own fear of the unknown.
Speaker: Today, I'm honored to speak with Michelle Johns, a licensed professional counselor based in Tennessee who specializes in trauma, PTSD, and domestic abuse.
Speaker: Michelle has dedicated her practice to helping survivors navigate the complex journey of healing while maintaining their role as parents. Michelle, thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker: Cynthia, thank you so much for having me here with you today. It really is an honor to be here with you. It's ah it's a privilege to be able to offer insight to other people. I'm also a survivor of domestic abuse.
Speaker: And i um i I think that I come into my practice as a professional oh with the gift of experience of raising two children that um had a father that was abusive and and ultimately in my situation, um abandoned our family. And so once once I left, he just went away and he didn't have anything to do with our children. So we all have different stories and they're so complex.
Speaker: um So there's this professional experience and personal experience that i I know that I bring to what I share with people every day. Yeah, why don't you tell us? The research. Yes, exactly.
Speaker: This is true, right? So, yeah. Yeah. Why don't you, if you don't mind, give us um a snapshot of your, your experience and your work with clients just to set the stage before i start um asking you specific questions.
Speaker: Yeah. So I, interestingly, I'm a therapist and this is a second half of life career for me. I spent the first half of my professional career in the corporate sector. And then,
Speaker: um In my late 30s, really started doing my own work and healing around the experiences that I'd had in childhood and early adulthood. And I'd always wanted to be a psychologist.
Speaker: So while doing my own work, I also went back to school and decided to get a bachelor's in psychology. And then after I completed that, I continued to to do my own work and try to decide what what would come next for me. I wasn't really sure.
Speaker: So I spent a few more years doing my own work and I actually worked just in the wellness field um with corporations. And as I was doing my own healing.
Speaker: i want to emphasize that it's so important. I think, I think to be a therapist, you need to have done your own healing. Otherwise you're bringing stuff into the therapy session with clients, even though you're trained not to, you just are.
Speaker: um and And I was working with people and they were coming to me and telling me their stories. And I was really at this corporation just developing wellness programs about how to eat healthier, how to get more movement into your life throughout the day.
Speaker: And people were coming and sharing some pretty intimate details with me. And I thought, you know, i really think that there's a calling for me to be in this field with people. And it felt important to go back to school and to get my master's as a clinical mental health counselor.
Speaker: And in that journey, before you can actually become a licensed professional, you have spend a number of years doing practicum and internship and then under supervision.
Speaker: and so um i started my program in 2020.
Speaker: and i completed my program in two thousand and twenty but I was just really, I started 2018, late 2018. I completed my program in 2020 with my master's and i have now been practicing for five years.
Speaker: And I've worked primarily with people that have been victims of intimate partner violence. And I've also worked with abusers. I have done assessment users and When I tell you the dynamics of an abusive relationship are complex, they are so complex.
Speaker: And I know that we'll get more into that as we talk today. So I'll stop here and see what questions and see what comes up. And then if there's anything left lingering afterwards,
Speaker: you can share my information with people and we can continue the conversation or maybe have a part two, something like that. Oh yeah, definitely. Michelle, thank you for sharing that background with us. So I'll dive right in many parents stay in abusive relationships, um, believing that they're protecting their children by keeping the family together.
Speaker: Can you help us understand the impact of witnessing domestic abuse, what that impact has on children, even when they're not direct targets? Yeah, so I'm going to say a couple of things on that. There's just, that's ah that is to me, there's a multifaceted answer to what you just asked me um First and foremost, I want to say i completely appreciate and understand staying in a relationship because you're trying to keep the family together.
Speaker: I did it. My original abuser was my high school boyfriend and we end up married. We have a child. And I stayed in that marriage for three and a half years and it was abusive.
Speaker: He was abusive as a boyfriend in high school. And so naturally the abuse just escalated in the marriage and we ended up having two children. And it was very important to me to try and keep our family together. And I did everything I could to keep our family together.
Speaker: At some point though, and i And I can tell you what it was. I mean, he told me every day that he was going to take my life. He was going to kill me. And he would tell me all the different ways he was going to do it.
Speaker: On top of the fact that he'd actually been ah physically abusive and psychologically abusive, telling me, as I said, how he was going to harm me. And I was living under threat every day.
Speaker: And so it became obvious to me that this was not going to be a healthy family for my children. Now here's what's also interesting about that. It was already not healthy for my children.
Speaker: and My, i left when my oldest was three and a half years old. My daughter was five months old. And we often think that when we leave,
Speaker: an abusive relationship when our children are infants, that that's okay because they're not, they don't have any recollection or any awareness of the abuse.
Speaker: yeah Research shows us that that's not true. That, and here's why it's brain development. 101. When you're born, everything you experience in life is felt in your body.
Speaker: Every sense of safety you have comes from your environment. And when you're an infant and you're less than two years of age, you don't have words to verbalize what you're experiencing in your body.
Speaker: You're left trying to figure out how to stay safe and self-soothe in a terrifying environment, a volatile environment. And it's setting you up where patterns are already being developed in your body and your brain.
Speaker: And so your nervous system is already activated and we are designed by human beings as human beings, ah really all living creatures are designed to stay alive, to stay safe.
Speaker: Our bodies work to keep us safe. And when there's a threat, our nervous system sends a signal out to our body that we're under a threat and our body responds.
Speaker: systems start to go into protection mode all blood flow goes to our major muscles cutting off blood flow to the prefrontal cortex which you don't have access to as an infant anyway but as a developing child you have maybe some access to you just don't have access to it at all which is which we'll get into later which is also what happens to ah adults that are abused so i hope what i'm saying is making sense when i'm so let me just recap that a little bit is that Abuse impacts children when they're in the relationship and leaving the relationship is an important and necessary step because it's the first step toward healing and creating some sort of safety now for the child.
Speaker: But to pretend that leaving is the lack the only thing that needs to happen would would be a huge mistake for the child and the family. You have to know that they did have an experience regardless of their age.
Speaker: while they were experiencing the violence in the home, hearing the yelling and the screaming and the fighting, maybe even witnessing and seeing it. So my three and a half year old actually did see things and was actually sadly sometimes invited into it. Now he was not abused by his father in that regard, but he was abused by his father. Witnessing that is an abuse for children.
Speaker: For sure. Yes. You made some really valid and eye opening points there, Michelle, about staying in the relationship and children being involved and impacted. But I want to ask now about parents who have left abusive relationships, but still need to co-parent with their former abuser.
Speaker: What are some essential strategies for protecting both themselves and their children, especially during exchanges and ongoing contact? Yeah, so first of all, I like to say, um like to call it a transition period rather than an exchange.
Speaker: And that's such important, terminate words matter and they impact children. And so when children hear the word exchange, they start to see themselves as a commodity.
Speaker: And I've heard this, I've heard this from clients, that you know, as adults reflecting back on their childhood and saying, gosh, I just felt like I was... I was a package. I was a, I was, i was an object, not a human being in this experience of being a child of two parents that were no longer married. And so it's important to say like, this is a transition period and um It's important for children to understand that they're not spending time at mom's house or dad's house. They're transitioning to the house they share with their dad or the house they share with their mom so that they don't feel like nomads going into homes that they don't feel like they really belong in, but that they actually have two kids, right, with both of their parents. And so I want to just name that. I think it's a really important thing to name.
Speaker: Yeah. So there are a couple of you asked for strategies and and ah ways to stay safe. And I think that you're asking that from the perspective of the abused partner, the abused adult partner.
Speaker: I stay safe when I have to come into contact with my abuser. Correct. Yes. yeah I think that one of the most important strategies or techniques you could do is take someone with you that, you know, would call 911 if anything went awry.
Speaker: or a situation got out of hand. And you would give them that direction. Like if anything goes awry or gets out of hand, I want you to call 911 for me. I wouldn't involve that person in the transition time or period. I would just have them maybe in the car or someone somewhere nearby to where they're an eyewitness to your experience if it's ah it's if it's a highly volatile situation. Now, I want to name this.
Speaker: When we're in a highly volatile situation, there's those are dangerous situations. And when we take someone else with us, we're putting someone else in harm's way also. um And so that's important to name. I don't know. Not not many.
Speaker: I don't know. ah There are people that still have support systems and family members that are willing to go with them and be there. But you want to make the situation as safe as possible. So meet somewhere publicly. You're a little more safe that way. You're you're safer Um, and you're not going to their home or inviting them to your home, even in the driveway, right? It's just not safe if it's not safe.
Speaker: Now, if you've gotten to a place where it's safe, I think that you're, you're going to always want to have an exit strategy. You're always going to want to have a plan to keep things safe. And that's going to be unique to everyone. I, it's hard for me to really give bullet points on that. when in a volatile situation, it's pretty easy to say, take a second person with you.
Speaker: and meet in public places. Don't, don't do the transition in a place where you could be um victimized. But it is challenging dealing with your own trauma responses um and trying to be present and show up and be stable for your kids. Right?
Speaker: How can parents recognize when their trauma is affecting their parenting? And I'm going to ask you for some coping strategies that they can use during those times.
Speaker: Yes, um such an important question. And so I'm going to say that there are there's a multidimensional way of dealing with your own trauma.
Speaker: And one is I want to make sure that I am clear on this. It's important to have a therapist that you're working on your own healing from the moment you decide to leave that relationship on, and that you also have a way for your children to work on their own healing. There are support groups for children. There are programs for children.
Speaker: And so I would check some of those out in your local communities. Um, and if not, I would definitely read books. I can, I can give you some, um, titles later, Cynthia, that you can share with your audience and um that you're, you're helping your child work on their healing, but you're also working on your own healing. You can also join support groups, support groups for women that have been abused, that that yeah they can, they're just so helpful. There really can be. Now I say that I, I just haven't been a part of a support group that wasn't helpful, but I mean, by working on your healing means that you are acknowledging that you were in that sort of experience and
Speaker: that you also acknowledge that you're no longer in that abusive relationship in the same way. Does that mean that you're not experiencing abuse still sometimes from your abuser? No, that is not what I'm saying.
Speaker: But what I am saying is once you've left and you've got a safe place that you call home, a safe place that you can go to, you're not a victim in the same way anymore.
Speaker: You've moved the needle, even if it's a little bit, right? You've gotten a new, you've got to you've got a place and you've got some space to start to work on your own healing. You've even got space to set boundaries around how you're going to parent, how you're going to experience life every day.
Speaker: it's a great time to be able to start to check in with yourself and notice what's happening for you in response to experiences. And that's the First thing that you have to do. Okay. I've had this experience with my abuser.
Speaker: I'm about to go. so Let's just give this example. I'm about to see my abuser during a transition time. What do I need to do to cope? Well, the first thing you need to do is check in with yourself. Notice what's happening for you. Like physically how what's happening right now. Some, some people might say, well, my heart's beating really fast.
Speaker: have a shortness of breath. I noticed that I have like a pit in the bottom of my stomach because there's a fear and anxiety wrapped up in, um knowing that I'm about to see my abuser and I don't know what's going to happen, what words are going to be spoken, what kind of body language is going to be presented.
Speaker: And so you want to go ahead and prepare for that, right? Like, okay, this is what I noticed is happening for me. And then the next thing you want to ask yourself is, well, what do I need to be safe? And then you need to be able to answer that question for yourself. And sometimes the people say, well, I don't know what I need to be safe. Well, you do. You do know what would it take for you to feel safe? What would in that situation, what are the options that you have?
Speaker: Okay, well, this is how I can, here's how i can handle the transition. like can have the children ready. ah can have their bags packed. I can have a handwritten note for all the things that are essential pertaining to the children, like medications, if they need that, any kind of,
Speaker: special activities that I know that are coming up and things that they need that I've covered those, those um needs for them and that that's in their bag. And that I might just simply, if it's okay to say to my co-parent, hello, here's everyone. You all have a great time together and goodbye. And you move quickly out of the situation.
Speaker: If it's one of those situations where you don't speak, um, And transition transition is one of those like, well, I drive up, they drive up, the children get out of the car and they go in and then I drive away. Just make sure that when you're leaving your child, you say goodbye nicely.
Speaker: ah and So now back to just coping in everyday life. So moving, continuing to move forward and doing your own healing. One of the most important things that we have to do in our healing is, and and I say this knowing that when you leave an abusive partner,
Speaker: When I left mine, um it was about another year or two before he actually decided he wasn't going to be a father at all anymore. So there was this transition period, there were visitation, um there were voicemails with cussing, there was um verbal abuse in person.
Speaker: So I've been through this. I'm not saying this with someone that doesn't know that these things continue to happen. um you've set boundaries. Like I'm i'm i'm not to, I'm not going to be spoken to this way right now. So I'm going to leave now and you leave the situation, but away from that situation,
Speaker: One of the things that we need to start doing is changing the way we talk about what's happened to us. Instead of talking about it as if we're still really in that relationship that we've left, which we're not, we've left.
Speaker: We start talking about it as the relationship that we left and a person we still have these interactions with, but they're not the same as living with them. And so we start to move through this letting go process in that we are not reclaiming our survivorship over our victimhood.
Speaker: It's so important because when we don't do that, it's like we're drinking poison every day and expecting the other person to die. and it just doesn't work that way. The longer we hold on to our hate and our anger and our frustration without trying to work through letting it go and unburden it.
Speaker: we're creating more cortisol release in our own body. We're creating more health issues for ourselves. We're creating mental health issues and physical health issues for ourselves. So there are breathing exercises that you can do, right? Just to calm your nervous system.
Speaker: When your nervous system is regulated, you just check in with your breath. And this is even when your breath, when you're down-regulated, just check in and notice I'm breathing. I have breath. These are some physical coping mechanisms.
Speaker: You can look at your surroundings and say, Once you're home and you're in your safe place, I'm safe here. This is my place of safety. I've created a safe space here for myself. Yeah. um And hopefully if you can afford it, have your own therapist so that you're talking through things that you're still holding onto from an emotional standpoint and asking what that part of you needs to feel unburdened and to feel safe again so that you can move forward life and healthier relationships and even with your children.
Speaker: I agree. These are all really helpful strategies, Michelle. Thank you. um i think adding on to that, like adding an extra layer is support from family and friends, right? So my next question to you, which is really important and something that I went through myself,
Speaker: is um support systems, right? So I feel, and I've come across this in my research, that many survivors feel isolated because people don't understand the complexity of abusive relationships. um They don't believe how serious it is.
Speaker: I've seen a lot of victim blaming or, you know, Things that in that setting, I personally um have ended relationships and friendships with people who have diminished my own experience.
Speaker: So how can parents who've left these situations rebuild their support systems and find people who truly understand what they've been through and what they're currently going through if they are co-parenting?
Speaker: I really, really appreciate the and value support groups. I've just seen so much healing for women in support groups with other women that have been through the same situation. And I think I started to say this a minute ago and I didn't finish the thought. It's important that the support group isn't keeping people in a state of like we're victims and let's be down all the time. It's important that you're providing hope for each other to move forward in a for future that is brighter and better that you feel empowered through that support group. So there's place, there's space for talking about what you've experienced and acknowledging how it's impacted you and also for saying, and I'm now in a place where I can move forward and I don't have to have those experiences in my life anymore.
Speaker: and i don't have to i don't they don't have to have power over me the way that they have um so that's one thing the other thing is it is important to first and foremost relationships are important and and and ending relationships with family members and friends is also traumatizing and it adds to it adds to the trauma of the abuse and So finding a voice, speaking for yourself, speaking for yourself to your family members and friends, if you can, before ending the relationship is really important. Hey, I understand that you may not really grasp what I've been through.
Speaker: You weren't there with me at home in the night, in the middle of the night or late at night when these things were happening. And it may be really hard for you to imagine the things that I've been through and experienced. but they're real and they're true. And what I would like from you is your support.
Speaker: And right now I feel minimized when I hear words like such and such and such and such. And I would explain that to them. I would tell them what they're doing. um Because here's the thing, what do you have to lose? If you're losing the relationship, if you're going to cut the relationship off anyway, you may as well go ahead and be honest and and see if you can help them but show up better, more supportive.
Speaker: Family members are harder than friends, right? Because sometimes it's easier to cut off a friendship, I think, than a family member. Now, I say that knowing most of the time is what I just said, right? It's mostly easier to distance yourself from friends than it is from family members.
Speaker: um So with family members, you limit your conversations. And I think you have to be strong in your resolve and saying, I feel minimized when I'm told whatever it is like that.
Speaker: um He's a really nice guy and you just don't see how he could possibly do that. And what I'd like is to be supported and believed because this has been a really traumatizing and life threatening experience for me. And I've made a decision to leave. Mm hmm.
Speaker: And I would like your support in that. and And when you're really direct about the way that you've experienced what you've experienced and what you expect from this person in this relationship, usually they're going to respond in a more supportive way.
Speaker: and if they don't, that's when you have to to make some decisions, right? That this is not a safe relationship and I'm going to put more distance between myself in this relationship or put boundaries around this relationship.
Speaker: Don't discuss what you've been through with them, even if they bring it up, if you've known known that they've minimized your relationship, your situation, they haven't been supportive, that you might say, you know, I really don't feel safe having this conversation right now. And I'd i'd rather us talk about other things.
Speaker: Just tell them. Yeah, we can discuss other things and and enjoy other pastimes. we don't It doesn't have to be that conversation. Even though the resentment can can be there, if you have someone who has diminished your experience, I feel like what you've said, Michelle, about not – dwelling in the in the victim mode, but empowering yourself as a survivor and finding purpose in other things because it helped me when I have felt isolated, like having this podcast, for example, and sharing information that helps others, I feel like has helped me. And I know not everyone's going to do a podcast, but um just connecting with other people um who share things that you enjoy
Speaker: um helps a lot. So I think that that's great. Also, it's a process and a journey. Like give yourself the time and space you need. Move through the stages of grief that you have to move through. and And that's true. There's a grieving when we are leaving a relationship from someone that has abused us. There's shock that we've been in a relationship like that. There's sometimes guilt and shame that comes along with a relationship, of having been in a relationship like that.
Speaker: um There's anger and there's frustration, there's sadness, but there has to be a place of hope and a place move forward to. And so make space for all of those emotions and for yourself to go through those stages. And sometimes you move.
Speaker: through the stages back and forth before you get to the place of hope. But there's an ancient Chinese proverb that i really love. And it's, if you let go a little, you'll have a little happiness. If you let go a lot, you'll have a lot of happiness.
Speaker: If you let go completely, you have freedom. And that's where you want to, where you have freedom within your own sense of being. and you don't need anyone else to tell you what you experienced was true to know that it was true.
Speaker: It takes, it takes a ah lot of therapy to get there. It sure does. Yeah, absolutely. Just sit in it. At least a solid year of of showing up for yourself to really work through you need to work through from the experience that you've had.
Speaker: Yeah. And grief is nonlinear. As you said, there are many you know, um phases and stages and it's not just from point A to b um So it's important that we take this space, like you said,
Speaker: two um Be kind and allow ourselves to get where we need to be. um Not saying that there's a destination. i'm just saying that we just all have to grieve in our own ways and just acknowledging that is so freeing, like you said.
Speaker: You know, here's the way you asked this earlier and I should have answered this a little better. It's and you and when you said this is the word kind a minute ago. It's really about having compassion towards yourself, even in the shame and the guilt. I had so much guilt in my relationship. Let me just say I was embarrassed that I had been in an abusive relationship.
Speaker: I was embarrassed. I was like, I know that I shouldn't be in a relationship like this. Why was I in this relationship and why did I stay? And so I had to work through my own guilt and all of that for a while.
Speaker: And when I started to do that with compassion towards myself, that's when I started to feel more empowered and the shift happened. Because when I was really beating myself up about it, I was walking around still in anger and frustration.
Speaker: Because I wasn't myself with this kindness and this compassion that my system needed and the nurture I needed. And even to your point of how can I ask for support from other people if I'm not providing it for myself?
Speaker: Exactly. That is so true. Yep. Yeah. The way we treat ourselves is the way we allow others to treat us. And that's the way we treat other people. And so it's important that we start with this compassion within nurturing acknowledgement within being honest with ourselves ah within and, and really leading from this place within yourself.
Speaker: Absolutely, Michelle. So I want to ask you one more question, and that is just looking forward, right, um towards healing in the future. We talked a lot about healing and, you know, looking within ourselves.
Speaker: um Aside from all the other things we talked about, how can someone, a parent, work on that consistent consistently while keeping in mind that they have to, you know, or they, we want to have a healthy, stable home for our children to thrive.
Speaker: So how do we manage and balance all of that? Well, okay. I love that you just used the word balance. I had this conversation with someone yesterday. I've been saying this for a while. people It's not about balance. It's about harmony.
Speaker: No, nothing's balanced. and Things are just, you know, one side of your body is longer than the other. It's we're just not are asymmetrical. We're not balanced as life isn't balanced, but there is a space of harmony.
Speaker: And first and foremost, let go of doing things perfectly. You're not going to do things perfectly. Your child is not going to go through life completely unscathed and not feeling some of the effects of being a child of parents that are divorced and in a co-parenting situation.
Speaker: It's unrealistic to expect that. But what is fair is that while you're doing your own work and your own healing and you're showing up for yourself with compassion, is that you're able to do that for your child as well. And one of the most important questions you can ask your child every day is tell me about your not even a question statement. Tell me about your dayto day to day.
Speaker: When they come and tell you about a situation that seems like they may be feeling anxious about or sad about, Instead of going right into fix it mode, ask them to tell you more about it. So say something like, what was that like for you? Don't assume what it was like for them, right?
Speaker: Because we, I know me as a a mama bear, I would typically, if something was harmful for my children, would immediately get mad and want to go protect them and take up for them and fix the situation. But the best thing I really could have done and I've learned to do as a mom is to say to my children, what was that like for you?
Speaker: And just get quiet and be a safe space for them to tell me and then affirm them. Just like you want to be affirmed, your children want to be affirmed. Well, I can really see how you feel that way.
Speaker: How can I support you? Just like you want to be supported by your family and friends, your children want to be supported. How can I support you? Now gonna say within reason, let's just be really clear about this. Children have children brains, they're undeveloped brains. Your brain's not fully developed until you're somewhere between the ages of 25 and 28. That's science, I'm not making that up.
Speaker: So you are your child's brain. So if they're asking for support in some way that you're like, i don't know that I can do that. You might be honest with them and you should be honest with them and you should say, gosh, I can really see how that could be helpful. What if, how about this?
Speaker: And you offer something that is a compromise of what they might be asking for and what you know is realistically possible. But really, no matter what, first and foremost, giving your child a voice and allowing them to be to speak and to be heard and affirmed and then working with them in the ways that they need to be supported.
Speaker: It's really important. Also, Cynthia, you and I were talking about your your son being ah middle school aged and moving into adolescence and being 13. mean And wow, children do your their fastest amount, their fastest growing between the ages of zero and 18.
Speaker: Your brain is constantly changing. What makes your brain fully developed is that it's covered in myelin sheath. and And that doesn't happen until you're between the ages of 25 and 28. And and so um Their hormones are changing drastically between the ages of like 11 and 15.
Speaker: And then again we get another little change between the ages of 18 and 21. And so they've got these hormonal shifts happening while they've got life experiences happening.
Speaker: And so you need to do the work of being self-regulated so that you can help self-regulate them. Absolutely. Yes. Especially during morning rush, school rush.
Speaker: That's the most important time to be regulated. out i i think it is So as you know, i think about this myself, I'm a human being and I tell people all the time, like I am going to give you these talks and we're going to talk about things.
Speaker: You will catch me in a moment of imperfection because I'm a human being. Like it's just life. But I always say to myself, if I ever find myself getting in a place where I'm
Speaker: frustrated and ah and it's and I'm reactionary. You know, I still could have responded in that situation and taken the same amount of time and gotten the same result. And once we start practicing telling ourselves that and then do the re-repair ah the rewind in your own mind, that's practicing it.
Speaker: And so then the next time maybe you do it a little better. Does that make sense? And so we can do those things all throughout life. So with um One more thing I'll say, and I said this a minute ago, we're not going to do things perfectly with our children.
Speaker: When we're the one that's causing some sort of um anxiety and stress for them, offer repair. The most important words children can hear are I'm here for you.
Speaker: I'm supporting you. i love you. and I am sorry. Exactly. and it's a model model what we We model for
Speaker: That has been one of the biggest lessons in my household. Children modeling. So what are we modeling?
Speaker: Yeah. Michelle, this has been such a- And you know what? I want to say- um No, thank you, Cynthia. It has been. I was going to say one last thing I want to say because we're talking a lot about both. Doing your own work for yourself and then being there for your child.
Speaker: It's a huge responsibility. And I just want you to know that I know that. i say that to the moms in my support group all the time. I'm like, listen- you do have a lot on you. And I want to just acknowledge that. And I want you to offer yourself some compassion because you're doing a lot of work for yourself and your own healing.
Speaker: And you're also helping your children heal. So give yourself a lot of praise, but a lot of compassion and a lot of space.
Speaker: You're so right. Yeah. Yeah. One thing um I'll end on this note, but one thing I've heard so many times with interviewing guests like you, Michelle, is that airplane metaphor where put the mask on yourself first before you help your child.
Speaker: um That is so important. Make sure that you are doing everything that you need to do for yourself because that modeling And that um foundation for yourself really um spreads to how you raise your children. So you really opened my eyes um today, Michelle, and you changed my perspective on how I look at different things. So thank you for that. I really appreciate your time.
Speaker: Cynthia, thank you for having me again. It's such an honor and a privilege to be here with you. And so thank you.
