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107. Dance as Medicine with Arts in Health Professional Kate Webb Berk
156 Plays4 days ago
In this episode of The Brainy Ballerina Podcast, I’m joined by former professional dancer and Arts in Health professional Kate Webb Berk to explore the powerful connection between dance and health.
Kate shares her journey from dancing professionally with Verb Ballets (now Ohio Contemporary Ballet) to pursuing a master’s degree in Arts in Medicine at the University of Florida, where she focuses on social prescribing and arts-based health interventions.
We dive into the growing field of arts in health, why dance is uniquely impactful for mental and physical wellbeing, and how movement and community can combat the loneliness epidemic.
This conversation is both deeply validating for dancers and eye-opening for anyone interested in the science behind why dance matters.
Key “Pointes” in this Episode:
- What “social prescribing” is and how it’s changing healthcare systems
- Why dance is considered one of the most effective arts in health interventions
- How dancers can reconnect with the initial joy that brought them to dance in the first place
- The powerful physiological and emotional benefits of community and shared movement
- Why the arts are not luxuries but an intrinsic part of us and truly essential to human health (backed by research!)
Connect with Kate
WEBSITE: https://artsinmotionwellness.com/
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/katestahgram
Resources Mentioned in this Episode:
- Art Cure: The Science of How the Arts Save Lives by Dr. Daisy Fancourt (affiliate link)
- University of Florida Arts in Medicine Program
- Jameel Arts & Health Lab
- Ohio Social Prescribing Collaborative
SHOP MSeam Apparel: https://mseamapparel.com/ (use code BRAINY25 at checkout for 25% off all items)
SHOP ORZA: www.orzabrand.com (use code BRAINYBALLERINA for 10% off)
Let’s connect!
My WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
Questions/comments? Email me at caitlin@thebrainyballerina.com
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Transcript
Transforming Healthcare Conversations
00:00:00
Speaker
They basically ask this magic question, which is the opposite of most U.S. health care, which is always what's the matter with you? And they flip it to what matters to you.
00:00:10
Speaker
And then they help link you to whatever that is that makes your life feel like it's worth living. And when you have that, people often then follow up with their own health care because they are alive again. They have incentive to take care of their own health.
Introduction to Brand New Ballerina Podcast
00:00:30
Speaker
I'm Caitlin, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor. And this is the Brand New Ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry.
00:00:46
Speaker
I'm peeling back the curtain of professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need succeed in a dance career on your terms.
Meet Kate Burke
00:01:05
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Brainy Ballerina podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin Sloan, and I am joined today by Kate Burke. Kate is an arts and health professional and former professional dancer. She is currently working toward her master's in arts and medicine at the University of Florida with a focus on social prescribing. And she's going to tell us all about what that is and why it's important today. But to start off, Kate, could you tell us a little bit about your background as a dancer and how that eventually led you to your current field in arts and health?
00:01:38
Speaker
Sure. And thank you so much for having me on. i've been a big fan for a long time, so it's an honor to be here. But i always love to move as a lot of young dancers do. And in fourth grade, there was an outreach program called Minds Motion. And it was run through Rich and Ballet, but they came to my fourth grade class. And i just remember feeling electrified. It sounds corny, you know, Billy Elliot, but just the allure that came from having a challenge and then Finding that if every week you kind of came back and gave your all that you could be capable of things that you weren't capable before that effort was put forth. And so that became kind of addicting in the best way it taught me the self-efficacy and confidence.
00:02:23
Speaker
On top of that, of course, it was just magical and fun to be moving with a bunch of people in space to live music. So I think everything about it just lit me up. And so at that point, you know, I was 10 years old. I was like, I have to dance. This is just what I have to do. And i know what I need to do to get there because they're teaching us. OK, you have to put in effort in different capacities and then it will amount. I think even from that point, I understood that as much as there was technical beauty that dance could offer. And I and i always loved that. It was so much more than that. And I didn't really know what it was because I was 10, but I was always like, you know, whenever I'm done dancing, I have to focus more on that part because Lord knows I'm not a natural technician. So maybe that's also why. So I continued. They had an ambassador sort of program for kids that was through scholarship through Richland Ballet. So i was able to Yeah.
Career Transition and Fulfillment
00:03:28
Speaker
so i got very into my ballet studies at rich ballet that's where i grew up in rich virginia and i was a trainee there my junior and senior year of high school and then i went to butler university because I wasn't quite sure what after dance would look like, but I always loved school and I thought maybe nonprofit work would make sense because it might help connect people to dancing or something else arts related potentially that would light them up in the same way. So I graduated from there in three years because I was like, okay, I have all my goals. I have to get to company. joined, it was Verb Ballet, now Ohio Contemporary Ballet immediately after graduating as a dancer, company dancer there. And that was my home. The past decade has just flown by and there's been all sorts of hard, challenging things, but fulfilling things and really great relationships that I got to make through that company. So again, we got to travel all over the world. We got to go to Cuba a couple of times, to Taiwan. So a lot of richness there, but it was time for me to transition. So I retired with them this past year. June. While you were still dancing with the company, were you working toward this next career in arts and health? Or were you kind of thinking about that? Like you said at one point, you thought maybe I'd go into more nonprofits.
00:04:44
Speaker
How did that start to change for you? That's a really good question.
Community Engagement and Online Initiatives
00:04:47
Speaker
So I think I always kept that community engagement outreach kind of teaching part as I was dancing because that was always so impactful and meaningful for me. So as I was dancing, even at Butler, I started teaching for Butler Community Art School, which paired up with different kind of like under-resourced schools in the area. When I joined the company, I kept teaching at YNCA's, different community centers around town.
00:05:13
Speaker
over COVID, actually, they called us and said, we might be able to pay for a month. And then we don't know the dance company. And ah thank goodness they kept paying us, which was great. But I didn't know if I was going to have an income. And all of the studios I was teaching at community centers were all hourly. So I posted on Facebook, essentially, hello world. I'm not especially credited in anything. I've been injured a ton. i have my group fitness certification from Butler and i love to help connect people to their bodies. If anybody wants a class, let me know. And my second grade English teacher actually messaged me and her neighbor. And then it kind of built into this group with her niece and you know her niece's daughter. And then
00:05:51
Speaker
You know, my parents ended up joining in. We kind of created this like little funny group. And i was shocked by how much they kept showing up. Even when COVID ended, they just kept wanting to come back.
00:06:03
Speaker
and was like, what is happening here? And I realized the whole secret sauce was the social part. and connecting to your creativity, to your body, to movement, but also to each other. And that made the retention magical. And so also during COVID around the same time, I heard about something called social prescribing, which is really taking off in the yeah UK. So once I heard about it was like, I know whatever I'm doing after dance, I have to be very passionate about. It's that.
00:06:29
Speaker
That's what I have to do. And I'm not quite sure what that looks like in our country. But I have to figure it out. So basically, the second five years of my career, i was very lightly kind of learning more about it, doing my own research. I also made a pact with myself not to get overly invested because I didn't want to not be fully present as I was dancing. So I tried to balance that excitement, but now I'm ready to let it unleash.
Roles in Arts and Health
00:06:52
Speaker
So for those who don't know, because I really don't know a lot about this pathway, and I think a lot of dancers may not know this is even an option, what does an arts and health professional do? That's another really good question. And I think because the field is still forming, it looks like a lot of different things. So within the arts and health professional hat, you can focus more on being a practitioner. So that would be somebody who's working in hospitals, community centers, even hospices, schools, different prisons as a way to facilitate arts and health interventions. You can also be an advocate. So people are working in public policy. They're working with the World Health Organization. They're working with political bodies to advocate for this work. It can look like being a researcher. So right now I'm also working at University of Florida has an interdisciplinary lab in collaboration with Stanford. So I'm working as a researcher there. So we're getting all this really great evidence to support all the stuff we all know and feel about how great art is for you. So it can look like research. It can also look like taking the conversation and building that into programming. So being able to develop it in a bespoke way for different communities. So using it as a way to create systematic change. So an arts and health professional all sorts of things, I would say. So paint us a picture. If you're making a program or a session, what is that going to look like?
00:08:19
Speaker
It really depends on your audience and what their interests are. Why love arts and health is I think it gave me a language for something i already felt in my body for dance, which was, and this kind of comes back to the World Health Organization defines health. Basically, it's the state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity. So all of arts and health is about The side of the equation we often leave out to that, which is the whole well-being side. It's not just the deficit of disease. So an arts and health intervention would look like, what does well-being look like to you?
00:09:00
Speaker
And how can we focus in on that? In a more clinical setting, that could look like, for example, I was able to do shadowing rounds online. at Shands Hospital, which is in collaboration with the University of Florida, they would have bedside interventions for patients who were either towards the end of life or in a very severe condition that they maybe couldn't practice, but they could consume arts and health interventions. So they would bring a musician to bedside. They even had, at one point, dancers going to bedside and you would just see the patient in so much pain
00:09:34
Speaker
And then they could kind of exhale and like truly miracle looking work with how it could impact their body. So that would be an example of a more clinical setting and intervention in the community. I'm right now doing practicum at Cleveland School for the Arts and the whole scenario is, yes, they're dance majors, but a lot of these kids have had a lot of adverse childhood experiences and trauma.
Social-Emotional Learning in Dance
00:09:59
Speaker
That's very intense and real. So yes, they're there to study dance, but mostly they're there to be able to get through this point in their life in the way that will best set them up beyond graduation. So we're really focusing on social emotional learning as our core. So I go into the class. It's not hierarchical. So we start in a circle. We've set our group expectations and They help explain to me what they're looking for. If they know how to articulate it, we've gotten better at that. So we communicate, and they make shared goals. And then we're having a ballet class, but I'm also checking in on them about what their good pain versus bad pain is, what their effort levels are, if they're able to identify their strengths and also identify areas they can grow. So in between combinations, I'm not just correcting, we're having conversation. So it's a lot more collaborative. So that would be an example of a less clinical arts and health intervention.
00:11:01
Speaker
Why do you think that dance is so particularly effective in an arts and health setting? So many reasons. Obviously, I'm biased. I'd say we probably all are. And there is data to back this up. So i was very excited. I was at the National Organization of Arts and Health Conference in New York this past November, And they had a whole slideshow of all the different interventions and their efficacy rates. And dance was rated number one because it combines about six different things. So you have your creativity, you have movement, you have human connection, you have other forms of art that often go with that. So you have the live music part and you have expression inside of that. So because dance is this
00:11:47
Speaker
hybrid, it has a lot of what they're describing in the field as active ingredients. So if you think about Tylenol, you know you have your acetaminophen as the active ingredient. But what's so cool about ART is it uses so many active ingredients into one intervention that often doesn't have nearly the negative side effects that traditional medication would. So I think Dance is the best, obviously, but it does depend on every population also, what would be the best fit. And for example, maybe somebody who isn't able to move their body as well, dance would make them feel not as self-efficacious. So it just depends on the population.
Understanding Social Prescribing
00:12:29
Speaker
Let's talk more about social prescribing specifically. So can you explain what this is and why that is so important? Definitely. i love talking about this. So social prescribing is a lot of different things. It's still being built out, but the most distilled version would be when a clinician, a healthcare care worker, a mental health worker even is able to prescribe community interventions that are not clinical in nature to help your health and well-being. And it exists in about 35 countries worldwide right now, including the U.S. They're starting to be more and more pilots. But in the U.K., and they're kind of the leader in the industry right now, they obviously nationalized health care, so it looks a little different.
00:13:11
Speaker
But they basically realized their healthcare workers were completely overwhelmed, like ours, and they don't have the capacity to really give the best care that people need. And people have to wait a very long time to see them. What can we do to triage? Because one in five visits to general care practitioners are for non-clinical issues. So that is 20% their time that they probably could triage to people who are better equipped to help with whatever that person is dealing with.
00:13:42
Speaker
Social prescribing as it's known now, kind of started back in the 80s or 90s. And they now have thousands of what are called link workers. So if a doctor thinks you're a good candidate for a non-clinical intervention, instead of having to wait months and months to see a clinician, you'll get to have ah an hour-long session with a link worker who they're easier to onboard because they don't have to have a whole medical licensure. They have to have a good understanding of the community and they have to have a great understanding of working with people.
00:14:12
Speaker
They basically ask this magic question, which is the opposite of most U.S. health care, which is always, what's the matter with you? And they flip it to what matters to you.
00:14:23
Speaker
And then they help link you to whatever that is that makes your life feel like it's worth living. And when you have that, people often then follow up with their own health care because they are alive again. They have incentive to take care of their own health.
00:14:40
Speaker
And then like a prescription, there's follow-up. You meet regularly, kind of like a health and wellness coach. And so you have accountability, but also you co-create a prescription that then you can reconnect and say, you know what?
00:14:54
Speaker
These side effects were helpful. I felt maybe some negative side effects. Maybe the art museum I wasn't quite ready for because I didn't feel like I belonged there. So how can we edit the prescription? Maybe you need two tickets to go to the art museum so you can bring a friend. And also we're going to give you two vouchers to go get a healthy meal right after at the cafe so you can get some good food in your system. And then we'll come back and talk about how it felt to be able to go see art that maybe you could relate to in a way that you're struggling with in your own life. You're able to talk with somebody else while you're there, move your body, get some food. How did that feel after? And so then you're able to unpack and better shape a prescription
Building Healthy Communities
00:15:30
Speaker
going forward. And really the silly part is ah healthy community socially prescribes innately. So this has been around since the beginning of
00:15:38
Speaker
human time. We would always be able to um connect. And that's really becoming a challenge in this generation. That's why as everything is becoming more and more medicalized, we're finding a way to fit in these innate human things into the language and vocabulary that we need our politicians and people to really be able to advocate for.
00:16:03
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:16:43
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:17:09
Speaker
What are the six pillars of social prescribing? That's a great question. And it really can differ based what kind of system you're working in. So right now I'm at University of Florida, especially studying the arts and culture subset. But in a standard kind of social prescribing scheme, like in the UK, they would also consider your standard social determinants of health kind of basic human need prescriptions. So things for housing or food or transportation. so that would be kind of maybe the one thing we've started to do with the U.S. But then arts and culture would be another one.
00:17:49
Speaker
Nature. So that's blue spaces like water, green spaces like parks, movement, which we all know very well, connection. So some sort of social group. So that could be a sports team. It could be something spiritual, if that's your cup of tea. It could be, again, a dance class or a book club, or even just going and walking with people and not even talking to them, but having other people around you. And then the last one would be service and volunteerism and So many people just think it's ridiculous to get prescribed something like that, but it's had proven hugely beneficial health impacts, especially for older adults, to get the fulfillment that comes from giving back and having purpose. So those six pillars.
00:18:36
Speaker
How is this going to work in practice?
Social Prescribing in Practice
00:18:38
Speaker
You have somebody come to you and they tell you what's important to you, and then you're going to literally give them a prescription to say, do these things and I'm going to enable you to do this?
00:18:47
Speaker
In practice, it looks, again, different dependent upon the system. So right now, Massachusetts is the first state to have rolled out statewide social prescribing. Well, and theirs is specifically focused on arts prescriptions. And And actually, Wisconsin just got that announcement this past week, which is so exciting.
00:19:04
Speaker
So that would look like, again, the doctor referring you to the link worker. And the link worker can look like a social worker or even a nurse in certain situations or a community leader. But somebody who that is their specific role and they have a budget. So in a similar way that insurance would cover medication or a certain amount of a surgery, then they're able to say, you know, here are your tickets to go see whatever performance, maybe it's the ballet for that night, or we're going to give you a season subscription. And what's great is arts organizations benefit from this. So now they aren't just fluff is what a lot of people say, or you know, arts, they're the cherry on top. No, it becomes an integrated part of your health. So they give you the tickets, they pay for that as part of the prescription. And then again, You would reconnect after. a lot of times the prescriptions last about a couple months. Three months is usually standard, about 12 weeks. And then you would go back and see if that's something that you would be able to bring into your own practice, if they would be able to reconnect you. Because you can't just... you know, have unlimited medication forever. at a certain point, you might be able to implement your own interventions and self-prescribe in a way that makes it more sustainable long-term. But yes, it would be paid for by either the insurance company, and there's some pilots that are happening with Anthem Blue Cross Blue Shield. And there's also some programs that are funded for by different pilot private payer or donors or foundations right now as well while it's getting off the ground and getting that evidence base. But if you think about a lot of corporate wellness plans, they've realized their bottom dollar is saved if they have healthier employees who go to the gym. So they've started saying, you know what, we'll pay for your gym membership or we'll pay up to X amount because it helps them if their workers are healthier overall.
00:20:59
Speaker
Exercise wasn't always like that. That was something that took a lot of time in research and research. it's not that old that we recognize exercise to be a core component. And seeing the diet, that was something that's newer in the past century as well. So this is just kind of the next development of that.
00:21:15
Speaker
What has been some of the coolest research that you've seen come out of your time working on this? There's so much. And I'm a very excited person. So even right now, some of the things coming up that aren't quite published, I have to like tamp down. But everybody, if you follow the Jamil Arts and Health Lab, that's a really great one with Nisha Sajnani. She's at Nish. NYU. There's also the one I'm in in University of Florida. If you search for the EpiArts Lab, there's data coming out constantly. Dr. Daisy Fancourt, she's like the leader of the world in the UK. She just came out with this book called The Art Cure. It's amazing. It's just filled with so much data, not just qualitative. Quantitative saliva tests where they're finding cortisol levels reduced from the beginning of a concert to the end of a concert. They're talking about different endorphin releasing moments when You know, you're in a shared movement space together. I'd say a sad data point, and this is the U.S. Surgeon General in 2024 released that loneliness and social isolation are huge public health risk and actually increase premature death by about 25 to 30 percent, depending on how you're measuring it, which is higher than obesity and physical inactivity. Basically, having loneliness or social isolation is equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day. So that's not a fun fact, but it's also something we can do a lot about, and it doesn't have to be in the form of a pill. And all social prescribing is not to say that you should replace medication. That's not the point. It is to expand the menu and to make medications more sustainable for people because we aren't just singular organisms with one input. We have so many inputs and outputs. We are very complex. And that's back to the WHO definition where it's physical, mental, and social well-being. And Dr. Tasha Golden, she's another leader in the industry, She gives a really great example of if you think about somebody who maybe they adopt a dog and they don't really like to go and walk, so they never walk their dog and they live in a tiny apartment. So their dog stays stuck in a little crate all day and they don't really have funds for toys. So they don't buy the dog toys and they don't come home very often. So the dog hardly ever sees anybody. In a couple of weeks, that dog will not be well.
00:23:44
Speaker
And it's not because they're sick. Yeah. It's because of all of these other things that are happening that are not being paid attention to. And the way our culture is getting, i mean, we're paying so much attention to productivity and so much attention to materialism. And we're really amounting those things to success. And we're killing parts of ourselves that are getting sick from preventable issues.
00:24:09
Speaker
Why have loneliness and isolation become such big issues in our current culture? I mean, everybody's talking about it, but so much of it comes back to the screen culture. And even just the other day, this sounds silly, I was getting my nails done.
00:24:23
Speaker
You know, I'm trying to talk to the nail tech who's Vietnamese and I was able to backpack this summer to Vietnam, which is so fun. So, i'm you know, trying to connect. And everyone else in the whole place is just zoop. And we see it all the time. But there's a lack of infrastructure for ease of in-person meaningful communication.
Combatting Loneliness and Isolation
00:24:42
Speaker
The infrastructure is all digitized. So People work from home, they Instacart, they DoorDash. There's really no incentive to go out. And these third spaces is what they're called. And a third space is essentially not your house, not your work, but an unplanned kind of like the office watering hole or whatever coffee station. where you just bump into people organically and you don't have to plan. You don't have to put in your calendar and say, okay, we're going to make this whole date.
00:25:11
Speaker
There's no effort. You just by happenstance bump into people. And that's how humans were wired for eons and eons. And because we are detaching ourselves from that town hall center, from whatever bowling groups you want to think about, or even like public transportation hubs where you run into people because we all get in our cars and go individually. It's creating a big void in traditional interventions that would prevent loneliness and isolation. And there is a difference between the two. And it's not to say that it's bad to spend time by yourself. In fact, that's a big misconception and everybody's personalities are different. And you can feel lonely in a huge group of people. The difference is the depth of the relationship and the quality of it. And then also if it's meeting your needs. So I'm an extrovert. I'm a people's person. And so for me, just to have one or two meaningful relationships, I'd still be like, wait, but I just love connecting. So I i really want to find a group, a community. and And that was something when I first came to Cleveland, I didn't know anybody. And I was so grateful to have the dance company to be my community initially. My husband is a super introvert and he's got his couple friends and that works for him. But he even notices like if he hasn't talked to those two people or whatever it is in a while, it can really... And you don't notice it right away. That's the other problem. It's kind of like a slow burn. So kind of time after time, you start to feel the, okay, maybe I'm not quite as happy as I... And then you get that extra jolt of whatever interaction. And then you're like, wait, that felt so good after. So I think the screens and the digital culture just really transforming how we interact with other people.
00:26:58
Speaker
Yeah, and that's so true about the third spaces because you go to Europe and it's everywhere. Yes. You can walk around the city and it's so easy just to pop in somewhere and that's what everyone's doing and their kids are with them. Yes. I feel like it's another thing I noticed. Like here, if I take my kids' places – Some places it's fine. And for me, it's always fine. I don't care. But for other people, I know it some people seem annoyed if your kids are there.
00:27:20
Speaker
When I'm traveling to other countries, a lot of times they don't feel like that. Kids are just at dinner at 9 p.m. or whatever they're doing with friends. And some people are just like, that's part of our culture.
00:27:31
Speaker
Yeah, we are very individualistic. So it's like you and yourself. And then if yeah you start to bring in other people, sometimes it's seen as a threat even. It really makes people more fearful to show up as they are as a mother or maybe a caretaker. And it disincentivizes people to go into those spaces. And then the problem just perpetuates. For social prescribing, what's great is it uplifts spaces differently. to build that back. It's not just like, okay, I want you to go play an instrument by yourself. It could be that, but it could also be, i want you to go to Edgewater Beach, which is a metro park in Cleveland. And I want you to bring your dog and they have a dog beach there. So you can go meet other dog owners and you can find other people who might share the same sort of values. The more we bring people to those spaces, the more we're able to point to
00:28:27
Speaker
their usage and their importance in the community and be able to advocate and lobby for more funding for those spaces to be built back up. When you think about dance specifically, what happens when people are moving together that's different than other activities specifically? Like what is that power?
Dance as a Remedy and Joyful Pursuit
00:28:46
Speaker
Oh, love this question too. There's so much data coming out about this right now. National Geographic just had a huge article. I don't know if your listeners have seen it, but it talks specifically about the strong antidepressive benefits of dance. And a lot of that has to do with the synchrony and exertion that happens.
00:29:09
Speaker
When you're dancing with other people actually helps to, first of all, encourage social bonding. So that oxytocin hormone is elevated and you also have those endorphins, those happy hormones coming out. But it actually helps to raise pain thresholds as well from that exertion. So you feel more invincible, like things that are bothering you, chronic pain, whatever sort of nagging, you know, mental things, they feel smaller when you're dancing, especially in a group. And getting that rhythm, that synchronicity, like I was saying earlier, that's why humans have been dancing around fire since day one. Like every ceremony had a dance component because it helps to bond you. It helps you to right-size what's happening. So at funerals, at celebrations of life, how do we move forward with this awful grief? And social prescribing is an art really can help. impact so many populations positively, whether that's an isolated older adult or a high school kid who really hasn't found their self-confidence yet or bereaved folks who are dealing with, you know, the biggest loss of their life. How can we get unstuck from this? dance is able to, again, employ the rhythm, creativity, emotion, physicality, and meld it all together in a way that can help unstick you and jumpstart whatever physical or mental things are preventing your well-being from thriving, essentially.
00:30:47
Speaker
That makes sense why when I want to dance, sometimes I can go take a class and that feels really good. And sometimes I'm like, I'll just go in the studio and do it alone. And that's not bad, but it's not the same as going to other people and being in that environment surrounded by other dancers. There's just something so magical about that. I always kind of thought it was like the motivation piece I'm having to self-motivate versus having a teacher.
00:31:11
Speaker
But I think what you're saying is way more what I'm feeling in those moments is the surrounding by the community. Yeah. Unfortunately, a lot of times we talk about the negative thing, the downward spiral. It creates an upward spiral because you're with all these people who are doing good things for themselves. You share that and you are all drawn towards that sort of energy. And I think that's why a lot of people start in dance is because they feel that. And now there's science behind it, which is super cool. So I encourage everybody to go up on all the things because it really puts into language all the things we innately feel.
00:31:48
Speaker
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00:32:49
Speaker
Yes, we know it as dancers. Totally. Have you had a moment in your work where you've seen dance make a really big impact on someone, like a specific story you can share with us?
00:33:00
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, i think all of your listeners probably have their own story in the sense that like, why are you even here listening to this? Because dance has been profound for you probably in some way or or another. And I see it all the time. Maybe one specific one I could think of. i have a student who wasn't feeling as supported or built up in school. And oftentimes, you know, her mom shared with me, she wasn't feeling right. She was feeling kind of stupid. And, you know, they realized she had ADHD and that was probably ah an issue for her being able to learn in the same kind of structure that a quote unquote normal brain would be able to function in And she started dancing a little bit later in a traditional sense. She was probably like around 11 or 12.
00:33:50
Speaker
When she started in my class, even though it was the lower level, I just suddenly saw her walk in. When she was in class, she was so focused. And i didn't know what she was talking about with not being bright or smart. like She asks the best questions. And I'm not making up to make her feel better. I truly am like, she's one of the smartest kids I've ever taught. I don't know what people are talking about. The curiosity she brings has helped her to improve so quickly. This was at a community center. So again, I'm trying to teach technique, but really my goal is more arts and health minded in the sense that I'm trying trying to create a space where people can be their best, most connected selves. But the side effect of having a space where that really works is a lot of times technique does flourish because people are given the space to genuinely connect with their want and desire to push themselves. So I've seen her technique
00:34:46
Speaker
take off. And at the same time, her confidence has totally blossomed and her schoolwork has also because she's figured out that she's not dumb.
00:34:58
Speaker
She has a brain that works in a different way and she proved that to herself in the studio. How can she then take that and apply it to every other corner of her life? So I'd say that her friendships, you know, being able to not be embarrassed or feel shame for who she is, but just to say like, I'm completely this person and that's beautiful and it works perfectly.
00:35:18
Speaker
for me in this way. And I know that now because of dance. So that would just be one example, but there's so many. Yeah. So much of my audience on this podcast are pre-pro dancers, for professional dancers. So we're approaching dance in a different way. What do you think that dancers can learn from this arts and health and social prescribing information?
00:35:39
Speaker
Yeah, this is such a huge topic. And I think because I was dancing professionally, I know there's so many ugly underbellies of this industry. We all know that. And I think the check that can happen when you remember why you started is huge. So you were saying like, I like to go into a space, move with people. a lot of times there's a really...
00:36:05
Speaker
health or medicinal even reason we start doing this. It's our body is telling us you should be in that studio. You should be moving. And so then once we feel that connection, that's so awesome and all encompassing them are like, kind of like me, like, okay, well, I want to do this for my life. i want to I want to get paid to do this because if you work doing something you love, then you're not working day in your life. Yeah, and, right? And a lot of this is systematic. There's been a lot of studies on how arts interventions in general can be hugely beneficial for people's health and for longevity for the general population and professional artists, how high of a level of mental health diagnoses there are when you get to that high performing level. And so much of that comes down to a systematic issue, which is a lot of times more of the business side of things. Maybe you're not getting enough financial support. You're having a lot of stress that goes with that. And that's more of a cultural issue. Maybe you're on tour a lot and you're feeling socially isolated or you're not able to touch back with those third spaces that ground you or that community that grounds you.
00:37:16
Speaker
Maybe you have an injury and again, you don't have the social services that you need to be able to really heal your body or the time you need to be able to take off to heal it. So there's a lot that can go into that. And unfortunately, on top of that, especially as dancers, there's that whole big old giant perfectionism label that we just like cannot, I'm recovering myself, we cannot get rid of it. And i think the arts and health part is to say,
00:37:43
Speaker
Even if it becomes something that is your professional pursuit, always come back to the curiosity of why you are there and why you felt connected to start this in the beginning. And I always think of Jodi Sawyer in center stage. But she's like, I just have to go take my fun dance class. And she goes, she's like dancing Michael Jackson. She's like, yeah, like that's how i started. I'm like, but actually a lot of us could use more of that kind of as a reminder because it's so easy to get burnt out. And it's so easy. And I did this all the time to stop listening to your body. And so to use arts and health as a way to prioritize that somatic awareness and to really try to listen to your body's cues, because where it starts to derail is where you stop listening to your cues. And you know that. I mean, that's like your bread and butter. But if we... Pair the original motivation for coming with the curiosity throughout your career as far as where is my body now? Where is my mental state now? How can I use dance to feed that genuinely?
00:38:51
Speaker
Or do I need to look to another outlet? Do I need to have something totally different? Do I need to crochet at night? Do I need to go walk along the lake with my dog or my friend and use that as a way to kind of help some of the load that does innately come with a professional career? You just touched on this, and I love what you talked about with the center stage moment because it's so true. I've had those experiences too where I just have had a really stressful rehearsal period. I go take a class that is just for fun, could say, and not that I'm getting paid for, and you just have that absolute connection, and you just feel that joy. and That's why I always ask my guests too, like how would you get started dancing? Why did you take your first class? Because I want to reconnect people with that feeling of being –
00:39:40
Speaker
a three-year-old a 10-year-old or whatever and going to your first class and that feeling that you felt. So I'm curious if you can share how dancers can reconnect with that joy, if there's any other tips you have, if they feel like they've lost that somewhere along the way.
00:39:55
Speaker
Mm hmm. of all, I just love that you asked that question because I think that's so important. Exactly. That's like why we all start. I did talk about reconnecting to that sensation, not form kind of idea and not losing that. But I think a couple other things are to remember your agency I think a lot of ballet dancers go belly up with the hierarchical system. And if you don't feel agentic or like you have any creative voice, then it can get pretty dismal pretty quickly. And then the high pressure environments that can incentivize just like as quickly as you can
00:40:38
Speaker
completing the task, getting the choreo, you know, moving on But I think we've all seen the artists who just supersede what dance is by being such a whole person. So I think ironically, the more you're able to really tap into your voice, your inner voice, the more you're able to be productive and be cast better because it's genuinely coming from a renewable source instead of a source that can be depleted from that pressure.
Teaching and Audience Engagement
00:41:09
Speaker
So I'd say again, and that kind of comes back to reconnecting with why you started. Another thing sometimes I found that is really helpful for me, and this might not be for everybody, but if you do teach or if you have the opportunity to teach, seeing somebody find that always jumpstarts my own passion. a lot of times the parents will say like, oh, we just appreciate you so much. I'm like, I appreciate your kids so much. Or the adults. And just seeing people who haven't danced, when they connect like that, it's like, oh my God, yes, this is why I do it. It's so easy to get into the nitty gritty of, okay, every single, my rotation in this part, I didn't roll down. It doesn't even matter if you've lost anything.
00:41:51
Speaker
Your joy that comes with it, like you're saying. So I think being able to teach if you can or even go to a class where people are discovering that it's just such a grounding thing. When I first started teaching and I was younger, i used to not want to teach like any adult kind of Open class. I think I was also nervous because I was younger than a lot of the students, but I was like, oh, I just want to teach the pre-pros. I just want to work on the technique. Right. And now that's one of my favorite classes to teach because I'm retired and older and I don't dance anymore. And I realized what a big deal it is to
00:42:22
Speaker
Figure out a way in your schedule with everything going on in your life, your work, your kids, your family, your responsibilities, your other things to make time to come to a dance class. And then like you said, when I see the joy that it brings my students and they're not pursuing a professional career, they just want to dance. They love it. It brings them happiness. And i think you're so right. We need to see that. Remember that when we're in the depths of an intense rehearsal period or, you know, the end of the season and we're like, oh my gosh, I just don't know how I can go on. Remembering that joy that it brings or even like if you can kind of see the audience or talk to an audience member, I feel like as the dancers, we don't get to do that a lot when we're performing, you know the audience goes and we go out the stage door and then you might see your friends and family, but if you get to talk to like an audience member or something and see how it affects them.
00:43:14
Speaker
Yeah. Those are the best conversations. Yeah. Totally. And I just had my Cleveland School for the Arts kids come observe rehearsals with the company earlier this week. And I think it's funny because even as a dancer in the studio, i'd be like, you know, what we do is cool, but...
00:43:29
Speaker
it's just another day, even being removed from it since June. And I'm lucky I'm still taking class with the company now for a totally different reason for my own health. And I'm very grateful to our director. She lets me come because I'm like, this is what my prescription is for myself to be able to go move and do that before I'm doing all my other things sitting throughout my day. But seeing the kids watch the dancers and going back and forth, i was like, Oh my God, this is so powerful. Like this, if we could bottle this up and sell it would be the best drug ever. And that's kind of what we're trying to do, you know, and that community engagement part is why I've always loved it and tried to advocate for the cross pollination between the artists and the people because
00:44:11
Speaker
First of all, it's helpful for them to get to talk to us. It makes them feel like, wow, I'm getting to speak with this quote unquote special person. The dancers get the feedback they need to realize like, wow, like I did impact somebody in a positive way. And even though I didn't have my heel forward exactly when I rolled down for that Talmbay, it's probably fine, you know? and I think my last season dancing, I really made a deal with myself just enjoy because i'm like, it doesn't matter. i don't have another season for casting or blah, blah, blah. And it was so much fun. like...
00:44:40
Speaker
God, why did I start doing that sooner? and I think I always try to make that a priority. It really is hard, though, when you're in the depths of it, like you're saying. It's hard. Yeah, I do see dancers as they get to the end of their career and you can see, you see the burnout. They're done. They're kind of over it. And then you see the ones who like know that it's almost over and they are just going to enjoy every minute of it. And that is so beautiful to watch too. And it it really inspires me because I definitely was one of the dancers who –
00:45:10
Speaker
I was like just ready to be done. And then looking back, I'm like, oh, I wish that I could have appreciated it more at the time, but I get how hard it is. It's hard. Coming from an older dancer, I would tell my younger self, don't let the small things, the little baubles get to you because...
00:45:26
Speaker
this is so amazing what you get to do every day. And this is so special. And it does become just another day in the studio sometimes, but oh my gosh, it's so special. It is. It really is. And I think, you know, we both have the 2020 hindsight, but for yes, people listening, keep that in mind. Let's kind of wrap this all
Dance's Role in Health and Society
00:45:47
Speaker
up. What do you wish more people would understand about the connection between dance and health?
00:45:52
Speaker
I would say that there's a lot of alternative medicines and people like to do whatever fad of the time, but dance is not an alternative medicine. Like it's not supplementary. It's more than nice to have, like, this is a rooted part of a human and has been in every culture since the beginning of time.
00:46:16
Speaker
It's a very special form of art because it's multimodal in nature. it integrates your nervous system, your immune system, your cardiovascular system, your social part of your brain, the emotional part of your brain, all simultaneously. It's an intervention that's quite powerful and also accessible in general.
00:46:36
Speaker
It's not an MRI scan that costs thousands of dollars. Yes, training can be expensive if you're trying to do a full career, but a dance class in general, there's so many even free community dance classes in areas that people don't know about. So I would say just to keep in mind that even though people like to write off the arts as fluff, it's so not fluff, number one. And number two, that if a doctor or healthcare care provider provides something like movement or or music and community, it's medicine. And so we have to be able to articulate that to stakeholders, to people in high positions and people of power, that there's a lot of data to support
00:47:19
Speaker
how vital these things are and to not ever write yourself off as a dancer and artist as lesser than. You are really important to the fabric of our society. And we are kind of starting to see the derailing features that happen when we don't have that in our community's health. Go look up some of the fun data and the books and things and advocate for what we're doing because if we don't, it could get all ours.
00:47:47
Speaker
Yes. That's a little scary, but yeah, I would say you're important. now ill All I know about that. Our work is important. Yes, yes. yeah I think it is easy as the dancers to think like, oh, I'm not a doctor. I'm not a lawyer or something. and Like what i do is not important, but it is important.
00:48:05
Speaker
It's not an acute emergency. Like what we do is the long game, but it's part of that definition of health. So maybe we're not the front line of if you did get your legs severed, I'd rather you go see a medical professional clinician you know than me. But again, if you want to zoom out and see the state of health.
00:48:33
Speaker
If we don't have things that make people feel like they want to be here on this planet and alive, then it doesn't matter if their leg gets cut off because they won't care, you know? So it really is so vital to the human condition that we have dance and we have art and things that make people want to be here and be well.
00:48:55
Speaker
Yes. Last question I have for you, putting back on your more professional
Maintaining Passion in Dance
00:48:59
Speaker
dancer hat. If you had to give our pre-pro dancers who are listening a piece of advice as they're pursuing a professional career, what would you tell them?
00:49:07
Speaker
I think, and this kind of circles back to what we were talking about earlier with the joy, is just always really holding on to that why. Like in Inside Out where she has, you know, her core parts of her and remembering that you started because your body was cuing you, that this was a space that felt good for you. And so always remembering and remembering can look like a lot of different things. It could be journaling or just taking some quiet time after a rough day just to think about it a little bit, but that you were listening to yourself when you started this. And so when so many other voices come into the picture to tell you so many other bits of feedback that aren't your own cueing,
00:49:55
Speaker
remember that your own truth is the most important truth and to stay curious about that your whole journey. And there might be other reasons along the way that that shifts, but you don't want to lose that first light spark moment to be able to check against that.
00:50:13
Speaker
Has it really snuffed out or have you just not listened to it in a while? So I would just try and remember to keep listening to that why. Yes. Kate, this has been so interesting and informative. I'm going to be thinking about this conversation all day. If anyone listening wants to learn more about you and the work that you do, where can we find you?
00:50:33
Speaker
I have a website, artsinmotionwellness.com. And then I'm on Instagram. That's just kind of my fun self, not necessarily professional, but I'd love to connect and talk to anybody who's interested in this work. I'm Kate Stagram, K-A-T-E-S-T-A-H Graham. But Really, I think human connection is is just such an important thing. So I'm happy to speak further to anybody else about this. And i am starting a group of people who are interested in supporting this work more specifically in Ohio. So we have also OhioSocialPrescribingCollaborative.com. If anybody wants to learn more specifically about social prescribing, there's a lot of great resources on there.
00:51:15
Speaker
Amazing. I'll link that all in the show notes for anyone listening. Thank you so much, Kate. This was amazing. Thank you so much, Caitlin. And good luck, everybody who's listening.
00:51:26
Speaker
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00:51:39
Speaker
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00:51:52
Speaker
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