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Episode 5: Championing Autonomy: the ACT Framework
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In this episode of DIVERG., we sit down with Mary O’Brien, an Autistic BCBA (Board Certified Behavior Analyst) and expert in Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA). Together, we explore what Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA) can look like when it is reimagined through a neuroaffirming lens—one that prioritizes values-based practices and fosters true autonomy for autistic individuals.
Mary shares her insights on shifting ABA away from compliance-driven approaches and toward a framework that respects individual agency, sensory needs, and the natural ways autistic people communicate and learn. We dive into how therapists, educators, and parents can implement strategies that honor self-direction, reduce anxiety around demands, and create supportive environments that align with an autistic person’s strengths and values.
Whether you’re a parent, therapist, or someone seeking a more ethical and affirming approach to support, this episode challenges traditional narratives and offers a hopeful perspective on how ABA can evolve to be more respectful, responsive, and truly beneficial for autistic individuals—especially those with a PDA profile.
Jersey Behavior
Mary's Instagram
Other References:
Mindful Behavior IG
Unfurling Littles IG
Bearded Behaviorist IG
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Neurodiversity Movement
00:00:00
Speaker
There's so much talk about this right now, but the idea of neurodiversity the neurodiversity movement is that diversity of neurotypes, diversity of types of brains and ways that brains work is not just okay, but good for us because we need all of these different kinds of skills and ways of processing things and ways of seeing the world into the neurodiversity affirming movement or the ah the idea of practitioners, clinicians practicing their therapies in a neurodiversity-affirming way is this idea that we are not
00:00:35
Speaker
correcting things that are wrong. We are not deciding things that are wrong about a person and correcting them. We are looking at individual strengths of a person and how how can we like how can we support this person in both adjusting their environment to fit what they need and then also gaining the skills that they need to navigate that environment.
00:00:55
Speaker
And and we can't you know we can't make everything perfect. People need different things. Sometimes those things are conflicting, you know. But being able to also advocate for those things that they are needing. And for those things to even exist in the world.
Critique and Evolution of ABA Practices
00:01:47
Speaker
I'm so excited to introduce today's guest, Mary O'Brien, an autistic BCBA. I invited Mary on for a very specific reason. And before we dive in, I want to acknowledge something important. Whenever I talk about my kiddo, I do so with a deep gratitude for the incredible professionals who have supported him along his journey. Any frustration I express about systems or practices is never about those individuals. However, as parents of disabled children, especially those who are minimally speaking,
00:02:15
Speaker
we know that our kids are vulnerable. If we aren't willing to have uncomfortable but necessary conversations to learn and to challenge what isn't working, we are not doing our part to protect and empower them. If you found your way to this podcast and stuck around, you are probably familiar with Applied Behavior Analysis, or ABA, and the controversy surrounding it. The internet is full of debates, but I want to take a moment to share my personal experience and why I feel this topic is so worth exploring.
00:02:43
Speaker
Before meeting Mary, my experiences with BCBAs were frustrating and disheartening. I often felt like professionals were overcomplicating my child, or worse, pathologizing things that did not need to be pathologized. When I sought advice, I rarely felt that my son, his individuality, his needs, his values, our family's values were truly being considered.
00:03:04
Speaker
In 2023, as I was advocating for a different approach in his education, I faced pushback on everything from token charts to hand over hand prompting to eye contact expectations and over instructed play. In a public school setting, no less. More than anything, what frustrated me was the refusal to acknowledge that some of these approaches weren't just ineffective, they were actively causing harm.
00:03:27
Speaker
Out of desperation, I searched for alternative perspectives. And that's when I found a group of autistic BCBAs practicing something called Ascent-Based ABA. When I attended one of their training sessions and started asking questions, I experienced something new. Instead of being dismissed, I felt heard. I wasn't made to feel like I was overreacting. In fact, they validated many of my concerns.
00:03:49
Speaker
Through conversations with them, I've come to understand why my son has developed aversions to certain experiences, many of which stem from widely accepted ABA practices. And perhaps most importantly, I've met professionals like Mary who believe that the field must take accountability for the harm that's been done and actively work toward meaningful change. You won't hear not all ABA from her. Instead, she creates space for real conversations about what isn't working and how we can do better.
Exploring PDA and the ACT Framework
00:04:16
Speaker
This conversation with Mary explores PDA, pathological demand avoidance or pervasive drive for autonomy and the ACT framework, a powerful approach that prioritizes a child's values, autonomy and emotional regulation over rigid compliance. I can't wait for you to hear this discussion. So let's dive in.
00:04:38
Speaker
So, so excited to have on the podcast today, Mary O'Brien, and I will speak to her background. um She is a BCBA and owner of Jersey Behavior, but as we get started, um tell us a little bit about your background, who you are, why you're here, and why this space is important to you. Hi. Hi.
00:05:01
Speaker
I'm Mary. um I am a board certified behavior analyst and I'm also a neurodivergent adult. I have been working in the field of my behavior analysis for 14 years, um but I'm really passionate about neurodiversity affirming, ascent-based strategies. I started out working with kids and was kind of unhappy with the state of how ABA was being used I transitioned to working with adults for a really long time and learned a lot about autonomy. And then when I transitioned back to working with kids, I was pretty alarmed to find that there was not.
00:05:37
Speaker
a lot of emphasis on autonomy, the way that there was ah working in group homes with adults. And so I've had this mission to bring autonomy to autism services for for kids.
00:05:52
Speaker
um i in like in that journey, I started to learn a lot about PDA. And so I've come to specialize in supporting PDA learners, kids, adults, and helping ah using ACT to understand, recognize emotions, and ah be able to choose the action to take following
Autonomy in Autism Services and Education
00:06:16
Speaker
them. Yes. So excited to dive into the ACT framework.
00:06:19
Speaker
um um But yeah, talk a little bit more about the autonomy piece. I think it's really interesting. um You know my background and my journey. And one of the first things I figured out about my son was that he was really motivated by independence. Trying to have that conversation with other providers or school, most of the times they were just confused. Like what what does that mean? Like why would ah a four-year-old need autonomy. So really curious the difference you see between like kind of working with adults and younger kids um in that respect. Yeah. Well, so everybody needs autonomy. yeah It might be a higher priority for some or um often they're less naturally able to access it and so it becomes a higher priority to access it.
00:07:12
Speaker
ah We find that when we provide autonomy or opportunities for autonomy for anybody, they this could be like a very useful tool in and supporting them, in helping them to gain independence and helping them to utilize safe behavior and also access their their own values.
00:07:36
Speaker
um autonomy is this idea that you can do what you want with your body and your behavior and your choices yeah and not necessarily be independent with everything, but the the freedom to ask for help when you need it, um to choose whether you work on skill or not, to choose what's important in your life.
00:08:02
Speaker
um there ah So in New Jersey, there's a big emphasis in adult programs on adults ah gaining independence as much as possible so that they can have jobs, so that they can be living in independent housing. um And that is a goal for a lot of people. but And so and autonomy and like how how can you be able to make your own choices so that you don't need to have a guardian supporting you in making those choices was something.
00:08:33
Speaker
ah that was a big focus. um But I think even extending further than that, the autonomy to choose that you do want to have help with those things, or that you ah would like to live in a setting where you have more help rather than be as independent as as ah as humanly possible. right And I think that there's a lot of cultural things to take into consideration. There's ah a lot of this what society ah deems is appropriate for an adult or what we're supposed to be doing to take into consideration. Yeah, so that autonomy for for kids is isn the same, right? It is the the same idea of autonomy. um I think that often child development is not considered when we are ah writing goals for schools or
00:09:31
Speaker
um ABA programs or lots of other programs they focused on compliance i'm focused on here is the skill for you to do and our goal is for you to do it when we say for you to do it.
00:09:42
Speaker
um And so introducing this idea that you ah our goal for you is not to do all the things we're saying to do, but for you to be able to understand the purpose of the things and choose to do them when they're important to you. And also sometimes choose to do things that aren't on my agenda, but are important to you and serve your values. Correct. Yes. And how much do you think that we're going a little off script, but that's okay.
00:10:10
Speaker
how much Those things play into mental health because I know there's a huge conversation around autistic people and mental health.
Understanding Neurodiversity and Neuroaffirming Practices
00:10:19
Speaker
How much does autonomy and learning to navigate it or even just having it play into supporting mental health now, but even later in life? Yeah.
00:10:30
Speaker
um A lot. yeah we i mean You can see ah from statistics that autistic people are more likely to be assaulted. Autistic women are extremely likely to be assaulted. um And this sort of comes from or this hypothesized to come from this sort of culture of compliance of doing what other doing what adults say, not questioning it. um And so we want to keep people safe yes by giving them autonomy, ah by making sure that people are not just ah compliant and cooperative and um you know easy to manage, but are
00:11:19
Speaker
self-managing that they are self-avocating. Correct. And that's ultimately, I think that's ultimately the goal. I haven't met many people who don't want that. And again, I'm stuck in little kid world who don't want that for their kids. It's just sometimes I find that the default is compliance in every situation because of the kid's age, not really thinking about like down the line.
00:11:45
Speaker
What is that gonna look like i think we've had this conversation about a low paying specifically like anything from getting up from circle time and walking over to a bookshelf for some reason do you know darting out into traffic um in certain environments gets.
00:12:01
Speaker
you know, pegged as a low paying and like has to be fixed right now when in reality there's ages when it's totally appropriate that you just can't like, sit at circle time the entire time. And there's almost like an over correction just because we're there's no um thought to development.
00:12:19
Speaker
At least, yes, insert. Yeah, yeah. And we look at behavior, you know, ah behavior, meaning, like, all of our skills, all of our responses, all the things that we do. When we are asking a child to do something that is outside of their developmental ability,
00:12:40
Speaker
it makes perfect sense that you would see a response to that that might not be super safe or healthy yeah ah because they cannot do it. And they are picking something to do that is as close to what you want as possible or serving the purpose of, well, I can't do this, so I got to get out of here. or Yeah. Yeah. I feel like we do that a lot. And I think this like kind of segues into a conversation about and developmentally appropriate, but also this idea of neurofirming.
00:13:10
Speaker
Um, you know, it's, it's a very, it's a buzzword right now. It's a very good buzzword. Um, but I think it's very ambiguous sometimes for parents, um, and maybe even caregivers and support. It's like, okay, of course I want my kid to be who they are. And if it's not the norm, that's fine. Um, but what does it, what does it really mean? Um, yeah, what is, what does that what where mean?
00:13:37
Speaker
There's so much talk about this right now, um and I'm so glad that there is. I'm so glad that there is, you know, that it is becoming more people are interested in neurodiversity, right? But the idea of neuro neurodiversity, the neurodiversity movement is that diversity of neurotypes, diversity of types of brains and ways that brains work is not just okay, but good for us because we need all of these different kinds of skills and ways of processing things and ways of seeing the world in order to have like a rich ah society.
00:14:15
Speaker
And the neuro, The neurodiversity affirming movement or that ah the idea of practitioners, clinicians practicing their therapies in a neurodiversity affirming way is this idea that we are not correcting things that are wrong. We are not deciding things that are wrong about a person and correcting them. We are looking at individual strengths of a person and how how can we like how can we support this person in
00:14:46
Speaker
both adjusting their environment to fit what they need, and then also gaining the skills that they need to navigate that environment. And and we can't and know we can't make everything perfect. there's going to be um you know big People need different things. Sometimes those things are conflicting. you know ah But being able to also advocate for those things that they are needing, and for those things to even exist in the world, you know for those accommodations to be something that are available sometimes.
00:15:16
Speaker
And what, no, totally, totally agree. It's very interesting. And ah competing needs, I think, is a great conversation, maybe for a different podcast, as I feel like. There are two kids in the mix and two adults. um We have a lot of those around here, but we're working through it. um When it comes to looking for, so what have, and we've talked about this, one of the things about neurofirmarying that I find really interesting is it's a word that has sort of taken off online. So there's not always a ton of definition around it.
00:15:46
Speaker
ah But it's also one of those things that I feel like a practitioner, or even a parent is never going to be like, I'm anti neuro affirming, that doesn't sense. So it puts you into this sort of sticky territory of, okay, do I believe everyone who says they're never affirming? Particularly when it comes to clinicians and practitioners, what are you looking for? Like, what are signs that someone is truly neuro affirming?
00:16:13
Speaker
It's such a big question because there there's lots of people, especially on the Internet, a lot of people and trying to answer this question, making their own checklist or course or, you know, yes ah new downloadable PDF and when you send them your email and address or whatever.
00:16:32
Speaker
and and You know, I think you'll get a different answer depending on the field you're talking to. You'll get a different answer depending on the neurotype of the person you're talking to. But I think very generally, you're looking for a clinician, a practitioner who is flexible, who is not going to be like, this is the way that we do it. We always do it this way. Somebody who takes joy in the child.
00:17:04
Speaker
That is not. I love that one. Yes. Yeah. yeah and i I mean, I think that is a crucial part of it, that you have to be here for, you have to be present. Yes. And, you know, ah here for supporting this child. um That they understand masking. ah They understand what that is and that the the complicated relationship that neurodivergent people have with masking.
00:17:34
Speaker
um And that they are not focused on compliance. ah They're not focused on goals that seem to be serving the purpose of making the neurodivergent person seem to not be neurodivergent or to fit in. And is that weird is that your definition of compliance by schools? Is that they're mostly focused on having the neurodivergent person seem not neurodivergent or is there is there a broader definition of that?
00:18:04
Speaker
Compliance based goals are going to be goals that focus on doing what I said, regardless of how you feel about it. Got it. Or, you know, sort of falling in line, ah being being manageable. Yes.
00:18:19
Speaker
and ah These often are leaving out important skills like critical thinking, problem solving.
Challenges of PDA in Compliance-Driven Environments
00:18:28
Speaker
I do not do everything that everyone tells me to do. When someone tells me to do something, I think on it for a minute and decide whether I want to do that, whether that is in line with my values, whether that this person is somebody whose advice is good.
00:18:46
Speaker
right And so just blanket teaching kids when an adult says, go sit down, you have to go sit down within three seconds, or you don't get a star. Why? Why if not only just to make this child more manageable in the short term, um but cause a lot of difficulties in their life in the long term. Correct. Yeah. um And I think that's really interesting, kind of a little bit of a pivot toward PDA.
00:19:17
Speaker
So per pervasive drive for autonomy is the community's preference. Some people will know it as pathological demand avoidance. ah But for those kids who cannot comply to an extent, um what is PDA? How do you how do you define it?
00:19:35
Speaker
Okay, PDA is a um behavioral profile within the autism spectrum. um The way that I like to describe it is ah that if you've ever seen this like wheel of autistic traits, um you might see on there.
00:19:56
Speaker
yeah um Sensory sensitivities like other autistic traits and this is just one of the traits is. um ah A very hyper sensitive nervous nervous system. Right and this is something that is present in many autistic people, but when it is a trait that is.
00:20:20
Speaker
um Maybe the most significant trait, maybe the highest and when when you're looking at that wheel, maybe the the the most present trait, the most prevalent.
00:20:32
Speaker
um when you start to see demand avoidance that looks like people unable to do the things that they're wanting to do because someone told them to do it, um that starts to get and that's to get into the area of PDA. And you know PDA, pathological demand avoidance, or persistent or pervasive driver autonomy,
00:20:53
Speaker
um can really be sort it's summarized as as a very sensitive nervous system, as a threat sensitive nervous system, a nervous system that is um hypervigilant looking for ah the source of a threat at any time and ready to jump into fight or flight to protect oneself.
00:21:15
Speaker
um And often this looks like fight or flight responses in response to being asked to do something or um having their autonomy challenged or compromised.
00:21:27
Speaker
um someone, again, this fits into having their autonomy challenged or compromised, but someone asserting that they are in charge of them. And this is really difficult for school because there's absolutely a lot of that often happening in a lot of school settings. um Not always, but often. Yeah.
00:21:53
Speaker
like ah Yeah, definitely. So and in terms of I know you said fight or flight, is there also a freeze and fall in elements PDA? Yes. Okay. Yeah, so what often what's happening is this sympathetic nervous system activation in response to something that's perceived as a threat. um And you might see a fight response, which looks like ah which looks like fighting, which might look like ah yelling or hitting or um ah you know sort of refusing flight, which might look like running away. Freeze and fawn, which might look similar, but freeze is, I cannot do anything and I ye sort of just don't, I shut down, I might like not,
00:22:48
Speaker
ah necessarily be able to speak at that time or communicate. And then Fawn is I think most often seen in people assigned female at birth. yeah um But it is being overly compliant in order to avoid any Uh, contacting the experience of being told what to do. And so I see sometimes girls like doing everything possible that they might be asked to do ahead of time. Uh, just to prevent the possibility that someone will tell them what to do.
00:23:33
Speaker
I've actually never heard that described that way. I guess this those types of girls would show up as very responsible, very on top of it, um and potentially not needing a ton of parenting because theyre essential it's almost like an avoiding avoidance tactic. Yeah, yeah. Fawning is um is often for autistic people.
00:24:00
Speaker
Masking, it is a type of masking. or One thing that they might do as a type of masking. um And so ah this, a child who is fawning, a PDA child who is fawning might be having a really difficult experience. They might be feeling ah like they are often ah anxious and that everything they do is to avoid anxiety, not to to access the things that they enjoy. um But they might appear to be thriving. They might be like,
00:24:29
Speaker
yeah ah not having any behavioral issues, very, very compliant, doing great academically. um And so it's sometimes hard to convince someone that this child is having a difficult time. Yeah, which I think is a bigger conversation. You know, I always say with people when it comes to the compliance conversation, um it gets really ah siloed within the conversation around autism and autistic people.
00:24:57
Speaker
But it's bigger than that, right? A lot of our ideas about kids needing to comply is a universal sort of conversation about kids' behavior in general. ah And if you step sort of outside of it, when I first went into a community of people who were more, all behavior is communication, um my child's needs did not stick out as much um because at the end of the day, if there was something going on, they're like, oh, that's an unmet need.
00:25:27
Speaker
I'm not necessary for him to comply. I need to help you figure out how to make this environment um work for him. And it's been fascinating to watch right down to, you know, we're in two different classes. One's a younger class and one's an older class. And I remember watching the instructor pull one of the other instructors aside one time with the the smaller class and say, the kids are having a hard time. His parents feel like they need to rush them through this walk.
00:25:52
Speaker
start reminding parents that that's not the point of walking through the woods with everyone. Start reminding them to just let their kids explore and kind of do what they need to do and it'll bring the temperature of everything down. We'll get where we're going faster. um And that was like mind blowing to me. It was all of a sudden I didn't need a ton of special supports because everybody there was vested in figuring it out for all kids the way my kid figured out. um But I think that's a universal conversation. It's hard to find those pockets of people who are truly championing that needs-based sort of approach. um But we can do it. It's really cool. Yeah, it's a huge mindset shift for parents and our generation
00:26:39
Speaker
yeah You know, generation ahead us also and yeah I'm always like, is it, as should I say that I'm a millennial? good say and I think that to have a mindset shift of what your goal is for your child, what is when your child is doing well, when your child is thriving, what does that look like? And to shift from they don't step out of line, they follow directions always, they are quiet. us also.
00:27:11
Speaker
This is this is what we were sort of taught that, like, a a good kid would would do. um And so when your child is, you know. i Running all around, or they are asking a lot of questions or.
00:27:27
Speaker
Uh, they protest things you ask them to do. They ask you why, right? I don't ask. Anybody has had that experience of you are trying to doing that in front of maybe their grandparents or maybe other, you know, other parents um and.
00:27:43
Speaker
you know, reframing what we think of as success for our kids, um because that those behaviors, asking why I'm being asked to do something protesting when I don't want to do it at at different ages at different levels, those are important self advocacy skills and that we want our kids to have. We do not want to raise children who are ah from the very beginning compliant with anything anyone tells them that they are not going to be safe. No, as adults.
00:28:12
Speaker
No, you're not safe. And at the risk of outing myself, I grew up in a very compliant based environment. And I remember getting to adulthood, or even my teen years, my mom just being like, why can't you stand up for yourself? And it's sort of like, well, I was never ah like, it's never been safe.
00:28:29
Speaker
Yeah. When am I supposed to flip that switch? you know Nobody let me know. No, like it's never been safe to do that. and Then so you get into the corporate world, you get wherever you're going and you're like, like it takes a lot to sort of dig in and be like, nope, these are my preferences. This is what it looks like to be respected. This is what I'm going to put up with. This is what I'm not going to put up with. That's a lot of unlearning.
00:28:50
Speaker
ah And I think that's one of the main things for both my kids that I realized in the beginning, and then autism got thrown into the mix, which is even funnier. I was like, no, I don't want you to go through that. I want you to know who you are, like from the get-go. But also, one of the things I want to touch on on PDA, and to give it to you to my experience, or if it's common across the board, ah you know a lot of people get into this, but what about the things that they have to do, sort of converse?
00:29:19
Speaker
uh but in the particular expression of pdi we have in my house 95 percent of the time the things that are truly logical like truly logical um it's not really a big deal. like It's not hard to you know get someone in the bath or get someone to go to bed, teeth brushing a little bit, but it's more of a sensory issue. Anyway, the things that are really important, we always sort of figure out, um but I am curious about the what about the things they have to do sort of conversation, especially around neuro-affirming care and ACT framework. Yeah, so um for PDAs specifically,
00:30:02
Speaker
There's a for everybody, but inter pator specifically a lot of. Reframing a lot of ah ah thought about what, like, what, what is what does success look like for us and what our priorities.
00:30:17
Speaker
um And I see a lot of families using PDA strategies, like you described, ah you know, to help their child choose to get into the bathtub. Maybe they sort of gamify it. They, you know, I'm going to race. I'm going to beat you to the bathtub. No, you're not. Right. And parents have this response that, ah well, they're not able to take a bath without without this sort of support, without this sort of to ah
00:30:49
Speaker
you know this presenting it in this special way. um And if we sort of let go of the idea that we need to have you take a bath and also we need to win about it.
00:31:00
Speaker
Yeah, right. Like at the end of the day, did you take a bath? We're good. Okay. Yes. All right. What was that? You know, I talk a lot about accommodations and ah breaking down tasks and thinking about like, what is the point of this task? Yes. Is the point of it? Are we learning a specific skill? Or is this like busy work? Right. Right. Like if you're if your homework is to write you know, write a paragraph about such and such thing. Is the goal handwriting? Is it the goal to like to the the structure of a paragraph? Is the goal for you to be persuasive? And like the things that are not the goal at the time, can we sort of let up on those a little bit so that there's less of a demand, right? Can you, if our goal is handwriting, can you write whatever you want? If our goal is,
00:31:56
Speaker
persuasive writing a persuasive piece, can somebody else do the physical writing of it for you, so that you can say it out loud. And there's ways to break down these bigger and more complex demands into less but boom less demanding demands, but as long as you are okay with letting go of the idea that they have to do the whole thing the way you intended it, the way you imagined it. yes yeah so much like it's so much
00:32:28
Speaker
Like how much do you need to control this situation? And I feel like that's a big sort of internal deep dive as a parent. Like if I need to control every single variable here, that's on me. That's not on you. I need to do some soul searching.
00:32:44
Speaker
ah which I have many times. um ah makes That makes total sense. And ah and then I think with school that you know kind of pours into a really interesting question.
Strategies for Supporting Autonomy in Schools
00:32:58
Speaker
um We live in the great state of New Jersey. um And everyone who is not familiar, ah New Jersey tends to have a very compliance-based view on things, um especially when it comes to support services, at least in the in the county that I'm in.
00:33:16
Speaker
um everyone's trying to get their kids into Harvard. And so it's all about gritting through life. And um it can be really tricky to navigate PDA, right? So I know in my specific circumstances, when I started trying to educate around it,
00:33:33
Speaker
um the team would latch on to things like, well, it says to use what motivates them. And I was like, yeah, but there's kind of a difference between like hanging what motivates them over their head and like making something physically motivated. So how do you navigate school? And there's different, you know, we talked about this beforehand, there's different sort of levels of it, right? You have these kids who are higher support needs and sort of being pushed in one direction, but then you have kids who maybe have more invisible disability going on. um And so it shows up. Yeah. And I think one of the i mean one of the first things that I look at um
00:34:12
Speaker
For a PDA, what is their like threshold right now? How much how many demands and are they or you know how how much demanding stuff is are they able to stay regulated for? And then how like what's the threshold that starts to become um ah they they They cannot do it anymore. right And so ah can we tweak that a little bit? Can we take, okay, well, if you are, you know, you have a certain capacity for demands for the day, yeah if yeah if you're familiar with spoon theory, it might look similar to that.
00:34:53
Speaker
um Can we reduce some demands in order to prioritize others? Can we, you know, if our goal today is that you're going to again, like the handwriting thing, right? If it's about handwriting, can we drop the demand that it has to be and it about a certain topic or drop the demand that it has to be ah in pencil on paper?
00:35:15
Speaker
right And so getting like getting flexible as yeah as the provider, as the teacher, as the school, um is really, really important for these kids who you know we're we're looking to support. How can we get more regulation into their day? And then the second part of this is once we have more regulation, once we have periods of regulation,
00:35:39
Speaker
Can we support that child in developing the skills to recognize what this regulation feels like? yeah And for them to advocate for the things that they need to feel regulated more often so that they can be in a space where they can learn.
00:35:55
Speaker
yeah So can they, you know, is that I i need to be a like ah asking for a break? Is it asking for things to be worded differently for them? Is it asking for those accommodations? Is it sort of that negotiation piece of like, right I can write an essay, um but i would I think it would be easier for me to write it on the computer.
00:36:17
Speaker
Right and like somebody who's like, okay, well, I've let go of the idea that. My goal for you is to comply with what I've asked. and embrace the idea about my goal for you is to learn the thing that I'm teaching you. and Absolutely. Yeah, I like that. The goal, yes, I love that. My goal is for you to learn the thing. And I think it's interesting too, again because the conversation gets nuanced with kids who are speaking versus non-speaking with kids who have, you know, um a lower support needs. ah But what I've often found is
00:36:57
Speaker
you know there's this temptation to sort of like, you know, do this like power exchange or it's like, okay, you do what I want and then you can do what you want. and um And I've even been in situations where I've, you know, watched people try to use this with my son and I just sit back and laugh. I'm like, you do not realize how much faster you're going to get him to do whatever it is he's trying to do if you give him some control back first. I'm like, everybody thinks you're going to lose him and I'm like, nope, just give give him a little control first. I'm like, and then you'll probably get a little something out of it.
00:37:29
Speaker
um very It's very interesting to watch, but it's so not intuitive compared to how most people are sort of taught to work.
ACT Framework in ABA and Natural Teaching Methods
00:37:37
Speaker
So what is the ACT framework? And I think one of the things that's so brilliant about what you do is the values piece. So how does that work into it as well?
00:37:46
Speaker
Uh, that's a very big question. Uh, act is a lot of things. Uh, I can tell you about sort of the, the ways that I apply act in my practice with PDAs. Yeah. Um, so we can start with values. Uh, so in act, there's this thing called a hexaflex. It's a hexagon. It has six.
00:38:08
Speaker
points and these are the six areas of psychological flexibility, the six psychological processes of act, right? And one of them is values. And so one of the first things that I, I know I must've said that 50, one of the first things that I, but truly one of the first things that I do supporting a family is to look at what are the child's values? What are the caregivers values? Who else is in the household? What are their values?
00:38:38
Speaker
And this can be, this is sometimes very easy. This is sometimes something that people have considered before. This is sometimes brand new and we have not considered. yeah ah And even when little the littlest, the littlest guys, the littlest kids have values. They might be very, you know, and they're going to be related to where they are developmentally and, ah you know, but like a toddler might really value independence, right?
00:39:06
Speaker
yep that That that makes sense. so And so we are. Motivated by our values. We are motivated to to contact our values to access. um Utilizing our values. Yeah.
00:39:26
Speaker
um we talk about towards moves and away moves in ACT. So there are moves you can make that are in service of your values, moving you towards your values.
00:39:38
Speaker
um And these are healthy, good for you, often ah leading to, ah you know, leading to feeling satisfied, leading to greater psychological flexibility. ye um And then sometimes we are Motivated ah to take these away moves and they are ah rather than pursuing something. They are taking an action to avoid something. Right. And so I see a lot of the time for PDA. or
00:40:12
Speaker
they're not accessing their values because they are taking so many away moves. They are so focused on, and this is not a criticism of them at all, but so focused on avoiding the discomfort of dysregulation that every move is an away move. Every move is that I have to escape that feeling and they're not taking moves that are, I am moving towards my value of fun. I'm moving towards my value of, I'm just moving away from my value i'm just moving away um the discomfort of fear or dysregulation. Yeah. and that were and When you first started saying that, I was thinking of it as like parents making decisions about things being away values. It didn't really occur to me that the child themselves can
00:40:59
Speaker
move away from their values out of dysregulation. So that's a really interesting nuance. Yeah. And I mean, this is, this applies for everybody. I often, you know, we'll talk with parents about what are their values in terms of parenting um and like really evaluate what is motivating you. What are you, you know, and maybe if your value is ah autonomy for your kid or your value is your um fun humor, right? Yeah. It is ah having a having a harmonious household maybe. Are the things are the actions that you're taking moving you closer to that? Or are they serving some other value that maybe you don't actively hold but are
00:41:50
Speaker
sort of condition to believe is what you should be doing. Correct. I see that a lot in the school conversation. but yeah right So you have a kid who values independence, values autonomy, loves learning. um And the temptation is as a parent to think, if they're not successful in school, they're not going to be successful in life.
00:42:12
Speaker
But if you really think about what it takes to have a good life, valuing independence, loving to like a love of learning like all of those things in and of themselves are absolute essentials. But for some reason, there's this like big block of time in the middle that if it if you can't you know survive in school, you're not going to be successful in life. Meanwhile, you already have the intrinsic skills.
00:42:38
Speaker
um school's just taking those away from you. And what does being successful and like in life look to you? and yeah there com sets that standard you know That's the other conversation, which is huge. What is it you actually want to do? yeah yeah and be Who do you want to be versus?
00:42:56
Speaker
just what we've defined that it is. so Yeah, and I think that you know um society might define this in a certain way. like you you have to to x y You have to be able to do XYZ in school because you need to get a job and make a lot of money and get married and settle down and have babies or something. you know And like maybe that's not what you're wanting to do. Meanwhile, I'm jonesing to take my computer and go chase summer around the world for a year. That sounds very successful to me at the moment. I would like to chase like 67 degree weather around the world. If I could just go everywhere where it's like that, freepo if it hits like 75, that's enough.
00:43:48
Speaker
I'm gonna like really like summer, but yeah, I get what you're saying. So we have different yes values, doesn yeah different preferences, different ideas of what success would look like. Hopefully we're going to have to control the weather. Absolutely. And speaking of values, what I think is really interesting in what you're talking about, and not everyone you know can homeschool like we're doing their PDA, which is fine. But what is it very interesting is when you take stock of your kids' values and your family's values,
00:44:21
Speaker
It gives you permission to sort of follow their interest and what they like. And so many of the skills that they need to sort of realize those values later, you get to practice in a way that, ah and this is specific to my experience, could never be practiced in in school. if i put a work If I put a worksheet in front of my son and say, work on counting money, it's not going to happen.
00:44:46
Speaker
If we walk down the street to Jersey Mike's and I give him a 20 to pay for his food um because he likes that independence. He likes being able to do that. Like we can, we can get somewhere. And so it's just such an interesting conversation about.
00:45:01
Speaker
when you move toward the things that you want for your kid or even your kid wants and sort of like dismiss some of the old guard. It's very interesting where you land. Yeah. Yeah. And I, what you're describing is sort of the difference between natural environment teaching. Yes. You know, and other types of, uh, more like wrote, uh, or like DTT.
00:45:23
Speaker
Teacher, right sure I mean, this is similarly, right? But yeah, you're. Teaching the skill in a way that. It's in the not the environment where he'll be able to use it yeah and then he also immediately contacts.
00:45:40
Speaker
reinforcement that is naturally occurring, that is the reinforcement of that will also occur in the future when he does this skill more more independently. And there's so much more autonomy in the real world and when there's context than if it's sort of a manufactured environment, which I think is really interesting. Yeah, yeah. And we avoid doing things like adding in contrived reinforcement, adding in, you know, hu that is something that you would have to fade later and, you know, then generalize the skill to the natural environment later. and So let's just do it now. Yeah.
00:46:22
Speaker
And I understand this is not always something, I mean, it's yeah the limitations of school, right? Like they, I cannot take everyone on a one on one trip to Jersey Mike's or to their preferred restaurant, you know? No, 100%. And that those things totally make sense. So as are do I've always maintained that schools are doing the best they can with the resources that they have.
Evolving ABA Practices to Be Neuroaffirming
00:46:44
Speaker
So how do you see ABA evolving to be more neurofirming and more helpful for kids who maybe fit this PDA profile or adults for that matter. Yeah, it's another big question. all I think we're in a place right now, the the field is in a place right now where ah you know we look at like motivation and
00:47:12
Speaker
um you know, the goal all the time is to use the fewest resources and make the most money in these big companies. um And so things like small providers, yeah providers who the whole company is people who who are interfacing with the people that they're supporting so that everyone is staying aware of and committed to what the reason that they're doing this.
00:47:42
Speaker
yeah You know, I think that's an essential part of moving towards, like, I think that we, ah when companies get too big, and they don't really, like, there's lots of people making decisions for other people who they don't know. right um So I think smaller companies, um I think ACT is a really crucial part of hi improving the field of behavior analysis. I think that we're we're leaving a lot out when we don't consider um thoughts and feelings and sensations yeah as behavior and part of behavior chains also.
00:48:28
Speaker
And it's such a great framework. What I think is really interesting about it is that it grows with the kid and the family because the end goal is always to put that child in a place where they can stop and sort of decide what they want in the moment and they're not constantly adapting, which is so missing from so many environments, I think, for kids. um But that just, it just feels like it grows so well with the child.
00:48:54
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. yes I love it. You don't have to convince me. I know. saying You can't use a token chart for 20 years. No. And you know, so don't do that. Not a fan of the token chart. And anyone who knows me knows that.
00:49:14
Speaker
ah No, it's just so interesting. And it's really encouraging. I meant to say this at the beginning, and I didn't see my backtrack it in, but I found you on Instagram via a group of behaviorists who are very much actively working to sort of change.
00:49:28
Speaker
um ABA and how it presents and holding the governing boards accountable. I don't even know enough to talk about that. ah But I think I remember my first interaction and I don't know if it was on your page or maybe unfurling littles. um But there was someone who had posted this thing about yes spaces and creating yes spaces. And I had this moment where I was like, oh, wait, that's what we do here. Like it was kind of one of those things where I never had a label for it. I'm like,
00:49:58
Speaker
But I'm like, that's what we do here. Like if you, you know, need to dump salt for some sensory needs, we find a way for you to do it. So it doesn't make us all crazy. My son was a little younger at the time. that That's such an interesting idea that you're preserving the relationship by making sure the space works first.
00:50:16
Speaker
And then that was the beginning of the end. I think if Rabbit holds it down, all of your content sends. But again, very interesting that there are voices out there that are really changing things. And to your point, I have talked to people who have had their kids in rigid ABA programs and their kids are 30 years old now.
00:50:33
Speaker
um and sort of run the gamut of things. They've tried a ton of things. They've sort of lived all of life and looked back. And what's really interesting is the people who really have have had the depth of the experience, the first thing they will say is, honestly, what really matters is the person working with your kid day to day.
00:50:50
Speaker
that is what That is what matters. And again, these are people who have founded schools. A woman's name is Lynn. She's like, that makes all the difference. She's like, the data is wonderful, but there are certain programs you put your kid in, and it's all about the data, so nobody's like paying attention to your kid. She's like, it really is that one-to-one, that person that's with them day in and day out. Sort of attuning is the word we use in DR.
00:51:14
Speaker
I think and really understanding them. And so it's interesting that all roads sort of like back there in terms of forward motion and progress. Yeah, yeah. I think um ah just to add ah like education about the nervous system. Yes, yes. I think is an important part to understand, you know, what what are what are we trying to do here? What are we, you know, ah I think sometimes ah operating in ABA without that knowledge. Like you're missing a crucial part of the system of how how these things are working. and so thanks Absolutely. I totally agree with that. And I think the fear is, and this comes up a lot with PDA too,
00:52:03
Speaker
or not so much the fear, but the lack of understanding is everyone sort of assumes that little kids can push through these things like adults can, right? Like, Oh, I'm scared of XYZ today. I gotta do it anyway. You know what I mean? um But I have seen the bucket analogy a lot as it relates to autonomy and it works with nervous system too. It's like, no, like you only have so much capacity. So if you fill it up and you ask someone to push past it, it it it doesn't work in the way that you think it does.
00:52:32
Speaker
Yeah, really learning to manage that um is so essential for long term. Yeah, yeah. I think you see many adults, many caregivers who don't have this, you know, complex skill in their repertoire either, the ability to recognize a feeling, recognize a sensation of emotion, any of those things, and choose what to do with it rather than letting it, letting it choose, letting it decide your next move. We're just reacting and not responding to it.
00:53:06
Speaker
So i know interesting.
The Power of Autonomy and a Supportive Environment
00:53:08
Speaker
So if you could, I'll leave on this note, um wave a magic wand and change anything. Anything. What would it be? Yeah, I mean, I would like
00:53:22
Speaker
It's complicated. I think that as far as ABA and PDA, and for practitioners to recognize it and to you know understand the the pieces that are crucial in understanding a PDA nervous system, understanding the nervous system, understanding the behavior chain that's going on for these folks through these kids ah and not sort of isolating it to just an ABC. so you know I mean, that information is is beneficial, but information is helpful. So helpful. And then it's all doom and gloom too. I mean, I just interrupted your question, but it's not...
00:54:05
Speaker
Having a really high level ah of autonomy is something that is not typical in the rest of the world, but it is very helpful for moving things forward. And and so I think we look at it and we're like, oh, dear, I got to you know manage this for 18 years. But it's like, no, when you have the skills and I pop you into the right environment, you're going to move mountains, if you want. Yeah. if you're If moving mountains serves your values? Yes. Yeah.
00:54:34
Speaker
or create really cool things like Lightning McQueen car crashing 27 million times over. Anything else you want to say, including closing thoughts? If you are thinking about what supports are important to for your child and thinking about who to include on your team, um I think looking at prioritizing connection, prioritizing does this person take joy in your child? My favorite. And ask to meet with them beforehand.
00:55:03
Speaker
beforehand Yeah. Get get the vibe. The one thing I will say is that I found the providers who have the most impact on my kid are teaching me things. And so as a parent, I think it's easy to rabbit hole, we get a lot of definitions. And I've gone into situations where I've led the witness like, oh, neurofirming child led. um And everybody says, yeah, I am that. But the people who like, are really great specifically with my kid are teaching me what that means in some respect.
00:55:34
Speaker
like Yeah, I think that speaks to the transparency a little bit. like ah I think a red flag is if a practitioner um is like, you just drop your child off here and I will handle it. I will do all of the therapy to them and then I'll give them back to you and they will be doing better. and i think yeah There's a lot of problems with that.
00:55:59
Speaker
and And look, everybody is well-intended. It's just sometimes I'll have people, like there's been a couple of people show up and I'm like, oh, like you know more about this than I i do. Like my internet searches should not be the guiding thing because I need you to help too. So um amazing.
00:56:19
Speaker
Thank you for listening and I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I did. As always, I will link information that will allow you to get in contact with Mary in the show notes below. I will also link her Instagram handle because there's a ton of great content that comes from there. And I'll link the Instagram handles of a couple of other accounts that create similar content and are part of that network of autistic BCBAs I was talking about at the beginning.
00:56:43
Speaker
We have more on this topic coming and specifically the ACT Framework in um upcoming episodes. But for now, I hope you learned a lot. If you have questions, feel free to post them in the comments on Instagram um or hit us up in DMs. Happy to get those answered. Again, if you are interested in the work that we are doing at Diverge and you are in the tri-state area, please feel free to check out divergeprograms.com and we will see you next week.
00:57:10
Speaker
If you are interested in the work that we are doing at Diverge and you are in the tri-state area, please feel free to check out divergeprograms dot.com and we will see you next week.