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Episode 9: Wait, Watch, Wonder: DIR/Floortime in Action at The Rebecca School
51 Plays4 days ago
Toni Tortora, O.T. and Clinical Director of The Rebecca School
In this episode of DIVERG., we take a deep dive into DIR/Floortime, a developmental, relationship-based approach that meets autistic children where they are and fosters meaningful growth through play, connection, and emotional engagement. Our guest, Toni Tortora, Occupational Therapist and Clinical Director at The Rebecca School, shares how the school implements DIR/Floortime to create a neuroaffirming and strengths-based learning environment.
We discuss the power of waiting, watching, and wondering—three core principles that help caregivers and educators attune to a child’s unique way of engaging with the world. Toni provides real-life examples of how these strategies empower students to build communication, regulation, and problem-solving skills while feeling seen, supported, and understood.
Whether you're a parent, therapist, or educator, this episode will deepen your understanding of DIR/Floortime in action and inspire you to embrace a child-led approach to development. Tune in for a conversation filled with insight, warmth, and actionable takeaways!
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Transcript
Introduction to Rebecca School's Unique Approach
00:00:03
Speaker
I had a colleague that reached out to me, she's an OT, and said, you know what's so different about students that come from Rebecca's school? And I was like, no, tell me. She's like, they think.
00:00:14
Speaker
They don't sit there and wait to be told what to do next. They don't come into school and not have any ideas of their own. They're thinkers, and their thinking then supports the classroom.
00:00:27
Speaker
which was really cool to hear because they've had a couple of our students go there from Rebecca's school, which is awesome.
Overview of Inclusive and Neuroaffirming Therapies
00:00:35
Speaker
Welcome to the Diverge podcast. Inclusive of autistic and other
00:00:52
Speaker
neuroaffirming and developmentally-based approaches to therapy, to education, and life. Designed for parents, educators, friends, and allies. Conversation by conversation, insight by insight, we are building community and making space for all kinds of lives.
00:01:14
Speaker
Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Diverge podcast.
Exploring DIR Floor Time with Toni Titora
00:01:16
Speaker
Today, we are chatting with Toni Titora. She is an OT and the clinical director of the Rebecca School in NYC.
00:01:24
Speaker
The Rebecca School is a school for special needs children that utilizes the DIR floor time model as their primary therapy modality alongside speech and OT.
00:01:35
Speaker
Really excited to have this conversation. If you know me, you know I am a huge fan of DIR floor time, and i always really want to help people understand how it can be used in more educational settings to the benefit of our kids.
00:01:48
Speaker
If you're new to the podcast, we've actually talked about this a couple of times in different episodes in different ways. So if you're not familiar with DIR and you want to get to know more, I highly encourage you to go back and listen to the episode floor.
00:02:01
Speaker
with Dr. Jeffrey Gunzel. He is the CEO of the ICDL, which is the home of Dr. Greenspan's work and floor time as well. We had a great conversation about the differences between developmentally based therapies of which DIR is one and behaviorally based therapies a few weeks ago. And then if you go all the way back to the launch of the podcast, I think about three episodes in we chatted with Dr. Deidre Azzaparte, who is a DIR floor time supervisor who's been doing this work for quite a long time.
00:02:30
Speaker
And she really just broke down what DIR is in practice, what the capacities are, sort of what the philosophy is um in a really tactical and practical way. So definitely check those out if you are new.
00:02:42
Speaker
And Tony is kind of like an icing on the cake wrap up of, oh, and here's how we do this in an educational setting and why it's so important and what it's like to watch it all come to life. definitely.
00:02:54
Speaker
highly encourage you to just dive deep down the rabbit hole with us and let's jump into this episode because it's really great.
00:03:03
Speaker
um Welcome to the podcast. um We have Toni today, the clinical director from the Rebecca School, um and I'm going to let her dive in a little bit and tell us about her background, um what she does and why this work is so important to her.
Expansion and Philosophy of Rebecca School
00:03:18
Speaker
Hi, everybody. My name is Toni Totora. I'm an occupational therapist and um And also the clinical director at the Rebecca School. And the Rebecca School is a school in Manhattan, New York, New York City.
00:03:34
Speaker
And we have a hundred and I believe 60 students right now. we kind of have ongoing um rolling admissions. So We're growing by the by the second.
00:03:45
Speaker
And we just opened a brand new school this year in Westchester in Mount Vernon, New York, um called RSN Rebecca School North. And we're very excited about both of the schools. Our school Manhattan actually just moved locations to a beautiful new building on 21st Street. So it's been a busy fall for us. um And thank you for having me.
00:04:07
Speaker
Amazing. I didn't realize you guys moved locations in the city. yeah um I believe the location I saw was was the older location. So very, very cool. Congrats on all that. You guys have accomplished a lot since the last time um I chatted with Elizabeth.
00:04:21
Speaker
so um It's great to chat with you. ah a little bit of background for our listeners. um When I was trying to sort of figure out school options for my son um and potentially even bring some DIR to our public school setting here in New Jersey, um i toured the Rebecca School.
00:04:40
Speaker
very curious to answer the question for some people how um DIR works and relationship-based therapy works in a school setting. um And so just background for the podcast, we have interviewed um Dr. Gunzel from the ICDL. He's talked a lot about the difference between developmental and behavioral-based therapies.
00:05:01
Speaker
And then we also had Dr. Deidre Azaparte who is a school-based occupational therapist and the founder of Mindful School OT. And she talked a lot about um the FEDLs and kind of how DIR works in general um from a therapeutic approach. But we haven't really talked about what it would look like in more of a school setting. So I was really excited to have you on today um to discuss that.
00:05:26
Speaker
yeah I think it for some reason, especially in the state of New Jersey, the idea of kinder, gentler, more developmentally based approaches in conjunction with academics and learning um are are a ah mental stretch for so many people. So really excited to sort of explore this topic a little bit deeper.
00:05:45
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, great. Well, yeah, thank you. Thanks for bringing all that up and giving everybody some context to background podcasts they can kind of listen to to get some more
Personalized Engagement and Parental Involvement
00:05:56
Speaker
information. But really quickly, DIR stands for Developmental Individual Difference and Relationship-Based Model.
00:06:03
Speaker
um And DIR for time is... what we do, how we play, how we engage with our students. So we use everything that we know. We we become detectives as clinicians to understand our students' um development, who they are as people, their individual differences is really important to us to understand their sensory systems and their motor planning,
00:06:26
Speaker
what they like, what they don't like, their passions and interests are a huge part of that. Not all of our students um are autistic. A lot of them are, but not all of them are. So definitely different diagnoses and understanding what that brings kind of to their individual differences.
00:06:42
Speaker
And the relationship piece is a huge it' a huge part of the model. um At school, the relationship is their teacher, their therapist, their peers, um the whole school,
00:06:55
Speaker
kind of comes together and supports each child individually. But we also know that parents a really important part of the team. And that's a really cool part of Rebecca's school too, is kind of getting the parents involved and supporting the parents and not just what understanding what we do at school, but then also bringing that to home Amazing. That's a really um <unk> good rundown. Thank you.
00:07:19
Speaker
um i always kind of start the podcast when we're talking a little bit more about, you know, clinicians and individuals with, if you could change, kind of wave a magic wand, what would you change about the conversation around neurodivergence?
Advocacy for Broader Therapy Options
00:07:32
Speaker
um Happy to let you answer that question, but also just really want to understand what's the main mission or philosophy of the Rebecca School? um And how are you translating that across your support systems for neurodivergent students?
00:07:48
Speaker
So ah two different and two different questions. I'll start with the magic wand and then you'll probably have to remind me about the the second part. But I need a lot of magic wands because there's so many things that are happening currently that I would like to speed up the process with to make things more equitable for the autistic community.
00:08:10
Speaker
I think choice is probably the first thing that I'd like to talk about. and We're fighting a hard fight in New York right now trying to change insurance law and um amending a bill that only only provides insurance coverage for one type of treatment for autism. And I know in the neurodivergent world, we don't say treatment anymore.
00:08:35
Speaker
But for politics and for insurance laws and for reasons like that, I have to. um Because we have to kind of use the same language that our lawmakers are using. So we're we're advocating really heavily over here in New York for choice.
00:08:49
Speaker
Not just that you get an autism diagnosis and you get these 40 hours of ABA a week. But you get a choice of, hey, your child's diagnosed. These are the options. These are the choices that you have to engage in the therapeutic process. Do you want to go down the developmental road? Do you want to go down the behavioral road?
00:09:08
Speaker
We're not saying one is better than the other right now. That's not our fight. Our fight is... choice. um So that's one magic wand. My other magic wand that I've been waving for a very long time is more Rebecca Schools, because um getting DIR in schools is really tricky, because it takes a different kind of thinking.
00:09:28
Speaker
It takes um clinicians and teachers and therapists to have more of an open mind and trust the process over product theory. um And not just you have to do these things because you're in kindergarten or fifth grade or ninth grade, but because developmentally, this is where you are. And this is what should be focused on um based on child. So that magic wand worked this year. I waived it. Yeah.
00:09:54
Speaker
Tina McCourt opened a second Rebecca school um in Mount Vernon, Westchester, which is great. And I hope there are more on the way. Amazing. no two Those are two wands. And then what was the second part of the question? Well, I was just going to say we share a lot of of magic wands.
00:10:11
Speaker
um And I want to come back to trust the the process over the product um because that's such a tip great way to phrase what we're after um with these types of approaches. But the second part of the question was, how do you hope to see that philosophy mission, those magic wands kind of translated?
00:10:29
Speaker
um Or how are you translating it across all areas of how you support neurodivergent students? Yeah. So right now, For the first time ever, I think, in society, we are listening to neurodivergent people.
00:10:47
Speaker
And that's an amazing thing that um didn't happen in the past. And now that we're listening to their voices and we're listening to their communication, and trying to understand what they're telling us about how they would like to be treated.
00:11:02
Speaker
That's how we're supporting this bill of changing the law to make sure that parents and self-advocates have a choice. They told us that this is what they want. And now we're opening those doors to allow for lawmakers to be able to do that.
00:11:18
Speaker
um So that's one way that we're working on it. There is and in I'm sorry to talk about New York so much. I know you're in New Jersey. You're fine. Close enough. But in New York, um there is and New York and Autism Advisory Board that meets in Albany four times a year, which we just learned about. So we've been joining those meetings um to let everybody know what DIR floor time is. Because still, I've been marching this march probably for 17 years.
00:11:46
Speaker
And I'm still all the time like, what do you mean you never heard about floor time before? Yeah. I'll teach you. I'll learn to teach anybody um about floor time. I get on podcasts like this all the time and to different organizations. Last week I spoke, or before the holidays, I spoke to AARE, the Air Association. It's a genetic condition. And and they are one of their students, right?
00:12:10
Speaker
receives DIR floor time. And they were like, hey tell us all about it. So definitely getting the word out by using our voice and our ability to communicate to say, hey, this is out there. And um there is another way besides a behavioral approach.
00:12:26
Speaker
um amazing I believe in New Jersey, I'll send you the information. We have something called the NJACE. um not to be confused with the Inclusion Board, but a governor council specifically for quality of autism care. well um And I just listened to something really cool. They seem to be very open-minded.
00:12:47
Speaker
Not that you have to be open-minded for this to... to make sense, but um it seems like they're they're doing good work in New Jersey. We are very behaviorally based.
00:12:57
Speaker
ah Yeah. So amazing. Yeah.
Individualized Education at Rebecca School
00:13:00
Speaker
And so talk a little bit about, um we've had a couple of people talk about Greenspan. ah But bringing this model to life in a school setting where you're supporting students day in and day out um and trying to meet. I mean, obviously, you guys deal with IEPs.
00:13:16
Speaker
um What are some of the challenges? But more importantly, like what are some of the breakthroughs? What do you see? how How does this support students in a better way? So what we What we do is we have a pretty small class size for logistic logistics. I'll start there.
00:13:34
Speaker
yeah Eight or nine students to four one teacher and three teaching assistants. So there's at least a two to one ratio in every classroom, which is really important because that relationship piece and having the staff really understand who our students are on a level of... um Their development, their sensory processing, knowing what it's like to transition in the morning into school and what it's like to have your lunch heated up the right way.
00:14:06
Speaker
um And our goal is to have our students advocate for themselves and to be able to tell us what they want and how to do things properly. that make them happy and feel productive.
00:14:20
Speaker
But sometimes our students aren't there yet and aren't able to self-advocate yet. So we have to have strong advocates in the classrooms for our students as well. So our two to one ratio really allows for that. Some of our students do have one-to-one support as well.
00:14:35
Speaker
So facilitating that knowledge of um Team meetings, we have weekly team meetings where we discuss the students and who they are, um their goals and their program at Rebecca School. Every student has an individualized program.
00:14:49
Speaker
So nobody does the same thing every day the same way. um Nobody does, right? That's like a a bigger quotation. Nobody does that. But at Rebecca School, there's not like this schedule that you follow that everybody follows the same thing. Some of our students need more movement in the morning and some of our students need more movement in the afternoon. And some of our students need to have lunch at 11.
00:15:11
Speaker
And some of our students need to have snacks throughout the day in order to be regulated. So we really try to understand who they are what they need and support that. And then we think about the classroom and shared attention. Shared attention is a huge piece. That's capacity two, if you're talking about the FEDCs, the functional emotional developmental capacities.
00:15:31
Speaker
FEDC two and shared attention means that everybody in the classroom is focused on the same thing. And we understand that the focus looks different for everybody.
00:15:43
Speaker
But there has to be this coming together piece and this flow of the day that we have these moments where the shared attention and the coming together are highlighted.
00:15:56
Speaker
So we work through regulation of sensory and movement, ADLs, ADLs, activities of daily living. You come in in the morning. It's kind of like how I wake up in the morning and I take a shower every day and I get dressed and i get to my car and I walk from the train Rebecca's school.
00:16:12
Speaker
um Our kids have ADLs. They come in in the morning and some of them are on the bus for a while. So maybe they need to have a diaper change or go to the bathroom or maybe they need breakfast because they didn't eat breakfast at home. Those happen as part of the day as well.
00:16:23
Speaker
So once you're regulated, your primary regulators, you're you've eaten, you've slept, you're you have all those things kind of going in your favor and you've got some sensory supports, ah movement, swinging, jumping, crashing, depending on what your sensory system is.
00:16:39
Speaker
Then we go through that shared attention, right? What what are we going to get everybody's everybody's minds glued to? And that's different for every classroom based on those classrooms' goals too. So a lot of our classrooms engage in the project-based learning.
00:16:52
Speaker
um Some of our classrooms, right before break, we had an amazing... um gingerbread house making contest. and And when I say gingerbread house making, I almost simplify it too much, but I don't know what else to call it.
00:17:08
Speaker
One of our students made um the Freedom Tower out of gingerbread. That's amazing. And he worked for weeks before figuring out what ingredients to use, why um how to what specific way the oven worked to make the ingredients stay the way that he wanted them to stay, all of these pieces. So we incorporate math, reading, science, social studies into these projects that then you're like, oh, here's this end part. But that's a process, right? It's a month long process of getting there to make this gingerbread house.
00:17:42
Speaker
um It's not this thing that you you fill out. ah We don't do many worksheets at Rebecca's school. um We don't,
00:17:50
Speaker
it's all we We try to do all thinking-based activities. Amazing. So um that's that's kind of our flow of our day is share attention and we kind of start back over with what do we need to be regulated again? what do we need to do to be in a group?
00:18:06
Speaker
Um, and then the next activity. And then the next activity. yeah Um, so really interesting. We didn't have time to touch on this. Um, but the parts of the podcast that aren't necessarily focused on, DIR or a specific type of therapy, um, we have talked a lot about child led and interest based learning because so many of these kids need it. And, and my son particularly, um, but very interesting that you brought up shared attention, um We talk a lot, I've had a couple of different interviews about PDA. Are you familiar with PDA? Yes.
00:18:41
Speaker
Okay, great. So I've had a couple different interviews about PDA um and with my own son, the shared attention piece um is actually one of the more difficult things in a classroom setting. you can easily get him engaged. Like he will easily sit down and engage with you if you, if you do the right things with his cars or just different activities.
00:19:01
Speaker
um But the classroom setting got a little bit trauma. We're constantly trying to work through it. um So with shared attention, how do you deal with kids who have trauma? um Are they kind of in that, at that same boat? And what are you looking for in terms of shared attention? Everybody focused on the same activity, but what about the kid who like,
00:19:19
Speaker
Maybe just being in the room and the middle of everybody is like the accomplishment for the day. Yeah. And that's that's why it's not – that's why we follow the child's lead and it's not – your shared attention has to look this specific way.
00:19:34
Speaker
So some of our kids are in a swing and they're reading a book. um One thing that comes to mind is like Goldilocks and the Three Bears because I have a video in my head that I'm thinking about this exact thing happening.
Building Trust and Developmental Focus
00:19:46
Speaker
And we didn't think – The child was paying attention or engaged with us about this. And then afterwards, the lesson was over. Everything was put away. This child went over, got out the puppets, and acted out the whole thing on her own. There you go.
00:19:59
Speaker
Because she was in the swing and she was listening. And that's what her body needed to do at that moment. But yeah we can't say she didn't have shared attention right because it looked different than than what we assumed her attention to be.
00:20:11
Speaker
So that's really where following the child's lead. And I also like to say following child's need comes into play. mean Lead is great, right? But that's not just what we do in floor time. We don't just follow kids around and do what they do.
00:20:23
Speaker
Yeah, we also follow their need. So sometimes we know that even though they've asked for seven cups of milk, and that they're asking for their eighth cup, then they're going to get a stomachache, right? Yeah, that's not necessarily that their lead is they want one more cup of milk, but their need is you're going to get a tummy ache, and you're not going to like the way that you feel. I'm going to say no more milk.
00:20:45
Speaker
And that's a very concrete example. But that happens often, like you're spinning in the swing. I know that when you spin in the swing too long, you get very dizzy and dysregulated. I'm going to have to s stop the swing and and we'll figure out a different way. so my god yeah um So that's really important in terms of learning and being in a classroom environment, too. And that relationship based piece, you need people who are going to understand you and all your different parts in order for them to advocate yeah for what your need is.
00:21:13
Speaker
No, that totally makes sense. um And it's one of the things that seemed to be the hardest hurdle, just kind of a personal story. um Even i because my son was sort of you know pushed into the programs that were available to him, which no shame, we all kind do that from preschool.
00:21:29
Speaker
um And he had wonderful you know people looking out for him, but he has very subtle sensory issues. Like he... gets overwhelmed in crowds and he doesn't like people standing over him. And these are things we never really knew because for the longest time, he was so subtle in the way that he checked out.
00:21:47
Speaker
um And what happened as he got to kindergarten is people got really, I think some people got really frustrated with that. They're like, no, i know this kid is capable, but he just won't. And it's like the end of the day, It was a sensory issue. It was a very specific sensory issue that I didn't even fully have a grasp on until we pulled him, started homeschooling him. And I saw it day in and day out. And now I can literally, we were out at nature school this morning. I could clock it. I'm like, he's not going to go in there until everybody else does. Cause he does not like,
00:22:12
Speaker
the crowd. um So it's very interesting. And I say all that to just kind of re-highlight how important it is to really know these kids kind of inside and out.
00:22:23
Speaker
And it's almost like that's the big distinction. We have to get to know you well enough that we can move you through the system, yeah not you the other way around. You advocated for your son, right? You know that he's not going to be able to go through there because it's going to be a big crowd and that's going to be really Sensory-wise, too much for him.
00:22:41
Speaker
And that's an important piece to think about when we think about our students is when – and this is this is an an old term. Well, old for the four-time community.
00:22:54
Speaker
but Every behavior is a form of communication. But – not all behavior is indicative of what someone's trying to communicate, which is like the tricky part, right? Yeah. So he wants to go through that tunnel, but can't show us that right now.
00:23:10
Speaker
Yes. um And that's why the weight, watch, and wonder of DIR floor time, of spending time and getting to know who our students are and not jumping in because someone can't do something the first time is really important. It's really important to take a step back, watch, observe, get gather that information.
00:23:29
Speaker
and then wonder how to support and what what it needs to be. um A lot of our kids come in with trauma because we are a private school. Our kids usually have had schooling somewhere else and sometimes not the best experiences.
00:23:44
Speaker
yeah um And really showing them that we are not going to force or pressure or make them do something. There's not going to be hand over hand and there's not going to be you must come in this room and you must do this the specific way. That's not what we're going to do.
00:24:00
Speaker
takes time for our students to learn that we are trustworthy. And we try to give them time. We have students right now that it's January. don't think they start in September, but they are up in the classroom for a few minutes and they have to go back down to the lobby to check and see what's happening. Right. That's the place they came in. That's where their parent dropped them off a couple months ago.
00:24:20
Speaker
And they have to be down there to see the ins and outs of the day. Yeah. We support and we show them pictures of this is your classroom and your peers are doing this and your lunchbox is upstairs and we'll down to you if you're hungry. But yeah.
00:24:32
Speaker
um really allowing them to show us when they're ready to do something. Yeah. Floor time is not about pushing. It's not about pushing students to get to a different developmental capacity or to move up developmentally.
00:24:44
Speaker
Floor time about supporting you where you are right now. And then the student kind of takes the lead and shows you where they're going to go with that. Right. No, that's actually amazing to hear. And I think one of the things I find, you know, when people first start to try to kind of implement these things, and especially, um i will say clinicians, and people who are, and I do it as a as a mom, like when you're answering to someone, or you feel like it's all on you to kind of get somewhere, like the tools, you use them for a little while, and then you start to get a little transactional with them.
00:25:15
Speaker
um And if you're dealing with trauma, and maybe even if you're not, nothing moves in a straight line. Like today, I might be able to get you to sit down and engage on XYZ, but tomorrow it might not work.
00:25:28
Speaker
Um, and so it's really like that trust factor comes up a lot, but I always highlight it when it does, especially in the podcast, because the one thing I'm learning is like, trust is a long game thing.
00:25:41
Speaker
And when there's trauma at any moment, like something can trigger and you could not expect it. And so you have to go back to your, to your baseline of like, this is what we're here to do. And that's, we often say Rebecca's school that,
00:25:54
Speaker
if you don't know what to do next, right? you're You're trying the things that you are, that worked before, that have been supported before and they don't work. We say drop down, right? We say drop down.
00:26:08
Speaker
it could mean developmentally, it could mean sensory wise, because when you take a step back and you're no longer plus plus push, push, support, support, support, it's not working, but you take a step back and you co-regulate, you re-regulate, you engage more of those foundational capacities, one, two, and three. you' the The worst thing you could do is to cause no more trauma, right? To cause no more stress.
00:26:40
Speaker
That's like the worst. You're taking that away. yeah And the best thing you can do is show the student that you're being supportive of who they are and where they are right then and there. Right. And then that trust kind of gets built.
00:26:54
Speaker
yeah Exactly. um I will say for me, I don't know if this is true for all kids, um but the thing I keep learning over and over again with these different processes is 99% time,
00:27:08
Speaker
If my son is opting out of something or he just doesn't have it in him, there's usually a very logical reason. um And most of his actions are geared at figuring out how to regulate himself. Like it's almost a very mature thing that's happening while I'm like freaking out. Yeah. Trying to figure out how to get us back to this place.
00:27:28
Speaker
So for him, like me taking a step back is the biggest safety signal. I can say, you know, sometimes it's just like trusting him as much you're trusting a process. um So that's amazing. So you said something in the beginning, and we're kind of veering off questions. But if there's anything you want to hit, just let me know.
00:27:44
Speaker
ah Trusting the process over the product. Can you explain a little bit more what you mean by that? So in DIR floor time, we don't have this prescribed timeline or this first then kind of situation of this this is the way things work or this is the way this happens. And there's a lot of reasons why. a lot of those reasons have to do with every program, every student is individualized. And that's important because every person is different.
00:28:15
Speaker
And and At Rebecca School, we really focus on the staff understanding that it's process over product. So a student may come in in the morning and they have their coat on.
00:28:30
Speaker
And in a well-meaning school or daycare setting, the teacher would take the student's coat off, hang it up the hang it up in the locker, And they'd go about their day or maybe take their lunchbox out and pack that for them. Very well-meaning people.
00:28:44
Speaker
But if we're working on self-advocacy and we're working on having students understand their own bodies, then taking off someone's coat when they don't feel hot Yeah.
00:28:58
Speaker
then it's just training them to do something to do it right where we we want our kids to feel what it's like to be oh i'm hot i don't want this thing on me anymore or where is my lunch box absolutely right yeah so reach to take a step back and say all right we're at school today what do you want to do Some of your peers are unpacking. Some are in the classroom starting their morning routine. Some are going to the bathroom. Some are eating a snack.
00:29:24
Speaker
What does your body feel like? Right. Allowing that process. And our parents, some of their goals and some of our staff's goals are getting that coat in the locker and unpacked for the day. Check. We're done.
00:29:35
Speaker
But right how are we how are we facilitating their autonomy, their self-advocacy, understanding who they are by just doing it for them? Um, it's not, as if it's a safety concern, of course, the coat comes off, it's too hot. They're going to overheat. Yes.
00:29:52
Speaker
But on a normal day-to-day basis, let's give them the chance to say, oh, something's not right here. I'm hungry. Where's my lunch? yeah Without doing for them. And really trusting in the process is important. And it's, we support our staff and our parents and also doing that. Very cool. Um, we have, the parents have great goals for their kids.
00:30:15
Speaker
there's a process that we're going to go through to get there. And it may not look like typical schools you've been to in the past where you're going to get that goal met the next day because we're working inside, internal, sensory, internal,
00:30:29
Speaker
Yes. Norow work that's going to change how they are in the long run. And I don't mean change good or bad. I mean, develop to develop. Yeah. And this is something ah keep coming back to Maybe it's just a personal hypothesis. So if you aren't comfortable with this one, we can kind of kill it.
00:30:47
Speaker
But as a parent from the outside looking at who my son has had some ABA through school, um and then we've used a ton of DIR principles and some DIR, just kind of looking at developmentally based philosophies versus behaviorally based philosophies.
00:31:03
Speaker
It feels like developmentally based philosophies give these kids access to what all kids have access to, right? The ability to sort of be in their own body, explore, work through things and build skills developmentally, even if it's on a different timeline.
00:31:21
Speaker
Whereas other philosophies kind of interrupt them to catch them up as quickly as possible. And i cannot help but wonder, based on my own experience, um if the latter doesn't cause harm developmentally in the long run.
00:31:37
Speaker
because you Yeah, it's it's a great point. And it's a little bit sad that our society doesn't do that as much anymore as it used to, just kind of let kids develop.
Long-term Growth through Patient Development
00:31:50
Speaker
Yes. Right? um There are so many things, classes, school, like kids go to school and daycare. And it's not a parent's fault. It's sometimes not even a parent's choice. You have to go to daycare. You have to go to school. Parents have to work. I work. I have kids. They're at school.
00:32:05
Speaker
yeah um it's It's kind of life and how it is. So society, I mean, like the bigger society, not yeah systemic not just yes but family's choice. But yes, I agree with you. i think that sometimes we...
00:32:18
Speaker
interrupt because we think we know what's right and we think we have the right agenda. Whereas trusting that our kids will figure out on their own what their bodies need um is, it's it's hard it's hard to grapple with sometimes as a parent.
00:32:39
Speaker
yeah um And my kids' teachers too, in school, they have great teachers. They're in a public school system and their teachers are amazing. But sometimes it's like, oh, they may eat the cookie first us for lunch and I'm okay with that. And they're like, the cookie first? I'm like, yes, the cookie first. Make your life easier tonight. Yes.
00:32:58
Speaker
and And that's okay with me. And it's it's really amazing. And relearning. And i'm a parent said this to me last week, a newer parent. How do I unteach myself? How are you going to unteach me all these things that I thought were true for so long?
00:33:14
Speaker
They weren't even talking about their kid. They're talking about themselves. yes like Can you help me parent differently? And I think that's one of the beautiful things about floor time is that it's not just directed at a child or a kid.
00:33:29
Speaker
You're developing. You have the opportunity and potential to to develop a whole family. yes I am grateful for Dr. Greenspan and Tina McCord, the director of Rebecca's school, because i would be a totally different parent if it if I didn't get into this work.
00:33:44
Speaker
um My kids are nine and seven, and I started working at the Rebecca school 17 years ago. So they grew up. in floor time. yeah And I would be completely different if it wasn't for that. And I had great parents and great upbringing, but the thinking, when you allow yourself to think developmentally and respectfully and say, hey, you got this, you'll figure it out on, you'll figure it out here to support you.
00:34:13
Speaker
um It's different than traditional way of schooling. Yeah. And I think that's one of the things is, you know, in the conversation, it can very quickly veer to people's perception of either floor time or you want to call a gentle parent, like whatever we're talking about, we're not doing anything right. We're out of the way.
00:34:32
Speaker
And I often find I was like, that's not necessarily true. Like there's still support, but support is very different from interrupting. And sometimes it's the opposite, right? It's, it's,
00:34:44
Speaker
it's harder yes to do floor time and um other parenting approaches that aren't behavioral because you're not doing nothing. You're understanding everything about that child. You've done your research. You've done your work. You you watched, you waited, you've wondered, you've come up with these ideas.
00:35:05
Speaker
You know who that child is developmentally, individual differences. You form this relationship. And now based on what they're doing, and how they're playing, you now have to incorporate what you know, understand in that.
00:35:20
Speaker
So it's it's not just following them around and doing nothing. It's it's really a scientific way of engaging people that's supportive of development.
00:35:31
Speaker
Yes. No. And it's, it's very cool to watch in action. Um, so I did have a question in about how, you had a parent who come to you basically and say like, how do you teach me to, can you re teach un-teach me things essentially? Do you see that a lot, um, in the school? Like, is your work as much with parents sometimes as it is with kids? Um, yeah.
00:35:52
Speaker
Yeah. we We offer parent trainings and parent coachings, parent support groups. So yes, and every parent is engaging in the process at where they are and who they are as individuals. So some of our parents come right in, they sign up for it, and um their child is three or four or five years old. And then our last parent training, we had a ah parent jump in um And their child has been in the school probably 10 or 12 years and they're graduating and they want more before their child leaves.
00:36:26
Speaker
yeah So every parent is engaging this in a different process in a different way. And and that's okay too. Our parent support groups are amazing. They're they're led by amazing DIR four-time staff who have different mental health backgrounds and different roles at Rebecca School. And our parent trainings, we're still actually starting another one tomorrow. They run every four or five weeks.
00:36:48
Speaker
um We do a mix of... ah virtual learning and bringing video and we watch it virtually of of parents playing with kids and then they come in and we do coachings in person.
00:37:01
Speaker
very We have that flexibility, which is nice too. um The more we can support, and this goes for Rebecca School and also four-time clinicians that don't work in a school. The more you support parents, the bigger bang for your buck, right? Oh, absolutely. If I can support a parent to do something that I'm doing and they could do it seven days a week, then coming to me once a week is amazing.
00:37:27
Speaker
If I'm doing it once a week, the child's still getting great floor time once a week. But if the parent can do it more, that's great. And that's really what I try to try to encourage. What are some of the primary ah benefits of this model do you see for students?
00:37:40
Speaker
um What kind of success stories have you guys had coming out of the Rebecca School? Any that you can share? Yeah. um I think it's, let me think of some specific example. So a student, well, actually a colleague of mine, she's an OT that works at a different school. And some of our kids, so when a student comes to Rebecca's school, our goal isn't that they stay there forever, right? Right. um We provide support for however long that they need. And then we often engage in the conversation with families first of like,
00:38:14
Speaker
you think about going somewhere else? Your kid's ready? Like, let's let's see where they can go. Sometimes parents are nervous about that. That might be terrifying. Are they ready? Yeah. But we support that process because we always want to look at the the least restrictive environment, and as they say it as they say in the world. right Rebecca School offers so much support. But ken can your child engage in a different way with different peers and and still do great and still do amazing things? um So I actually had a colleague that reached out to me. She's an OT.
00:38:46
Speaker
And said, you know what's so different about students that come from Rebecca School? And I was like, no, tell me. She's like, they think. They don't sit there and wait to be told what to do next.
00:38:58
Speaker
They don't come into school and not have any ideas of their own. They're thinkers. And their thinking then supports the classroom, which was really cool to hear because they've had like a couple of our students go there from Rebecca School, which is awesome.
00:39:14
Speaker
um We got a few pictures and emails from students who graduated this past year who what actually went to a different school about how successful they're doing and they're going to, they're up at the, up at the board ah solving problems and doing answers and questions. And it's like, Oh, that's amazing. And great.
00:39:35
Speaker
We have some of our students who go to college and ah next level education. um Some have come back and visit us at Rebecca's school and in different ways and shared their success. And we have our annual conference that we hold every year. And we often ask some of our previous students to come and speak, which is amazing and a great opportunity for our staff to see that this is what's kind of what's happening um after they leave Rebecca's school.
00:40:06
Speaker
um What are some other great examples? Yeah. Some of our students who have internships leave and continue on to work at those workplaces, which is very cool. They get to see some of that.
00:40:20
Speaker
And we love any family stories that tell us, hey, we're doing well, we're doing this. We do have um a book that was written a few years ago, Respecting Autism.
Insights from 'Respecting Autism'
00:40:31
Speaker
And it talks about our case conferences and our case presentations and Dr. Greenspan's feedback um for our students. So if anybody is interested in checking out Respecting Autism, please.
00:40:43
Speaker
That's really cool. A cool resource yeah to take a look at. And we'll link that in the show notes. um Because you guys are such an interest-based, project-based establishment, um I'm always you know ah proponent of defining success in many different ways. ah How often do your kids kind of stumble upon their thing, their passion? or there even if you know i've I've always told people, I'm like, my son can be an artist. He can be a musician. it doesn't have to be a lawyer.
00:41:10
Speaker
Yeah. Like, do you find that your kids find those things much quicker and are supported better in those situations? We actually, is one cool thing about Rebecca School. We have, so for our transition students, they all engage in, they have the opportunity to engage in, um the word is escaping me right now, but they get to pick what they want to do at the end of the day. And there's multiple, multiple different kinds of groups that they can go to. Yeah. That's really cool. And that's for our older students.
00:41:41
Speaker
But one unique thing is that we encourage our staff to share what they are passionate about.
Staff Passion and Student Engagement
00:41:48
Speaker
that way the students can see more than what the typical education system would offer.
00:41:56
Speaker
That's really cool. A few years ago, I was a dancer growing up and I started a tap group um along with another OT and a PT. And the tap group is still running strong. It's great. They're going to have a performance in a few weeks, a winter performance.
00:42:10
Speaker
um And we just asked for donations from different places for tap shoes. And we got a lot different tap shoes and our kids put them on. and And it's been a success since. um We have...
00:42:22
Speaker
Some students who are really interested in cooking and some students who really don't like to eat many different things, but kind of came together and they're running a smoothie group now with one of the social workers, which is really cool.
00:42:34
Speaker
That's so cool. Music is by far the best thing. ah shared attention bringer yes all things, right? Always, always, always. We have a ton of music therapists at Rebecca School. Well, a ton.
00:42:50
Speaker
We have five music therapists at Rebecca School and also people who love music and share that music with their classrooms. So we have teachers who bring out the guitar for their goodbye meetings. And we have call our music therapists who do a rock band, a symphony group, and And we've had full productions of, and what was the last one?
00:43:18
Speaker
don't think it was Goldilocks and the Three Bears. Hansel and Gretel. that's so fun. Hansel and Gretel. And they acted it out and there was music and... Some groups are Lego groups and some groups are slime groups. We have a Taylor Swift group.
00:43:33
Speaker
That's so amazing. I'm not sure who likes more, the staff or the students. That's so funny. you know we try to – we really – our staff is passionate about it, we bring that out.
00:43:48
Speaker
then our students may find that passion there too. I love that. Yes. ah One of the things I sort of skated over is you mentioned sort of classroom ratios. and there were two things that happened when I visited the Rebecca school that I just loved.
00:44:04
Speaker
um One of them had to do with one-to-ones. And so when Elizabeth gave me the tour, she basically said, she goes, we try, she's like, unless it's a real need for a student to have a one-to-one, we try to stay away from one-to-ones.
00:44:16
Speaker
She's like, because when one person is interacting with two kids, they can foster engagement much more between those two kids than if you're constantly like one person just focused on the kid.
00:44:28
Speaker
And I thought that was brilliant because I come from a world where everybody's fighting for a one-to-one higher support needs kids. You want that one person. um And it really kind of spoke to the philosophy around engagement and getting kids engaged, which is something i find that's often ah missing. But can you speak a little bit more to sort of that philosophy?
00:44:48
Speaker
Yes. So the two to one ratio is not by mistake. It's for that exact reason that Liz shared with you. And figuring out which two students can be paired together to play a specific game or to be in agreeance about ah and activity is is all of floor time.
00:45:12
Speaker
Negotiating, problem solving. I like this. i like this more. My more is better than your more. Right? and really using all of our tools floor timers to kind of connect these students and that share attention piece is huge in a classroom.
00:45:27
Speaker
of yeah what is it that's going to bring everybody together. We also do a ton of coaching with staff, one-to-ones and um yeah teacher's assistants to support the the not here and there back and forth of a staff member and a student.
00:45:45
Speaker
So a lot of our coaching and a lot of our group work, the staff is either sitting in the circle with the students or behind the students. in specific situations, yeah what the needs are to allow for the students to be the the makers of the group, right?
00:46:04
Speaker
So it's not like the para and the student are interacting and the group's happening, but the group is happening and the para is supporting or the teacher's assistant is supporting the students in what's happening in the group.
00:46:18
Speaker
That totally makes sense. And that's a lot of our work is coaching staff. We spend a lot of time. We have a four-time team dedicated to that because every time there's an interaction, there's a different way to engage. There's a different way, different perspective.
00:46:33
Speaker
So the more we develop our staff in understanding DIR and supporting of the students, then the more we can engage. Support the students, right? If we focus on one specific student and one specific problem, then we're just solving that one problem. Right. But if we support the staff to to think and understand the model and who the students are, then they can support all the students in whatever ways that they need.
00:46:57
Speaker
Correct. I love that so much. And really like that sort of inside out approach. Cause a lot of times what I see um is you know, for example, someone will decide they want to work on social skills. Right.
00:47:11
Speaker
And so you'll have two kids playing and it's all about, did you say hi to so-and-so who just walked in the door? Did you do X, Y, and Z? And all that's like, well and good, but then the kids just kind of sit there for a couple hours and it's like, all right, what's the point? Like,
00:47:25
Speaker
you can get them engaging with each other first and make that hello worth it. A lot of times kids developmentally don't engage by doing that, right? That's a very adult way of having a conversation. It's like, hi, how are you?
00:47:41
Speaker
yeah And sometimes that's even awkward, right? Usually when you're engaging, like my kids will run into the room and jump on a swing at school, right? cool right And then somebody else like, hey, I like that swing too. And then it's like, oh, there's your shared attention. There's your engagement. And now we got something. yeah something like wait did you say hello we don't do that dog does no that no they don't i didn't even think of it that terms i'm just always like i'm like but they don't even know why they should be friends yet like get the hot wheels track out and let them go to town and then we can talk about being excited that so-and-so's here early on when um when i was beginning as a parent and um
00:48:24
Speaker
One of my one of our my coworkers, she we were pregnant the exact same time. So then watching your child develop and watching them develop with somebody else's child. And my friend, my colleague was like losing her mind. She's like, I can't get them to play peekaboo. They won't play peekaboo with me. What's going on?
00:48:41
Speaker
and I was like, do you hide behind something and like pop out? And she's like, no. Like, right, so change the game. Don't think, like, that this game has to be this way. Don't think this engagement has to be this way. you have to really think about outside the What is peekaboo?
00:48:58
Speaker
It's cause and effect. It's surprise. It gives you the... oh, what's going to happen? Anticipation. You're building anticipation. Shared attention is a lot building anticipation. so Yeah, no, it's very similar.
00:49:11
Speaker
but you're kind of describing is very similar because I homeschool. um When I crack open cur curriculum, I did it this year at the beginning of the year. And I looked at like science and social studies. And one other thing, I can't remember what it was.
00:49:22
Speaker
Number one, they were all teaching the same concepts over, under, here's this, classify this. It was all workbook stuff. And I like backed up and i was like, Number one, he knows how to do this.
00:49:34
Speaker
like Number two he's not going to do a worksheet about it. like he's like I think we built like a Google map or something and delivered stuff to all of our friends. I'm like, same concept, but not sitting here and wrote working on over underwear. like Yeah. So but that translates. That's a really great way to describe what I see in a lot of different places.
00:49:54
Speaker
um And then one other thing i wanted to touch on experience visiting the Rebecca School because I thought it was so cool. Of all the places that I visited, um all the clinics I've been in different places I've engaged with autistic kids, the Rebecca School was the first time i was ever given a set of rules when I walked in the door.
00:50:13
Speaker
Yeah. And my favorite one was if kid comes up to you and says something, you have to talk back. um There were several and they were all very respectful. ah it was, we don't, you know, we don't talk about the kids in front of the kids.
00:50:26
Speaker
um But if someone comes up to you and they start a conversation, you have to talk back. And I just remember that being such a like just telltale sign of like kind of who you guys are from the get go.
00:50:37
Speaker
um But yeah, It's also missing from a lot of spaces. So if you have any like thoughts or comments on that, we'd love to hear them. So when we start off orientation every year with our new staff and we talk about the capacities. Now, the capacities that we all know and love are go one through nine, but there are many, many more.
00:50:59
Speaker
yeah um if you check out Virginia Spielman and the capacities on the Star Institute website, they're also on ICDL now um website. The capacities don't, you don't stop learning, engaging at capacity nine. Thank goodness, right? Like I never want to stop learning and engaging. yeah That's important.
00:51:19
Speaker
um But I tell staff all the time that those higher capacities
00:51:26
Speaker
8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 is where we expect our staff to function every day. Yeah. And we support the staff's regulation in many ways. We support the staff's engagement in many ways. We are a fun school. It's a great place to work.
00:51:45
Speaker
We do, yeah we have guac-offs where we all make different kinds of guacamole and have taste tests. and We do scavenger hunts. We are fun. But at the end of the day, we expect the staff to be reflective and to think.
00:51:58
Speaker
And that's a really important message that the staff hears, that our families hear, that people come on the tour. Because if we're asking our kids to think all day long and for our students, it's exhausting. It's exhausting. We have to be regulated and engaged all day long.
00:52:17
Speaker
But we need our staff to be reflective in that. And when I came in and played and when I came in and said, boo, yeah how did the students respond? Yeah. And am I going to do that again next time?
00:52:29
Speaker
Those are those higher capacities. And that's really what Liz is setting up on the tours is that when you come in here, our students expect a certain level of adult, right? yeah There's a certain level of we're going to engage and we're going to play and we're not going to make you engage if you don't want to.
00:52:47
Speaker
right But if a student asks us to engage, i have to figure out how I'm going to do that and get that goodness of fit, even if for that moment, I may not feel like playing peekaboo, but if someone hides, I'm going to find them, right? Because that's part of what this model is.
00:53:01
Speaker
It's constantly thinking about Oh, how I did that. The student responded this way. How am I going to think about that differently next time or change it next time? and where The change is always happening from the adult clinician therapist teacher perspective. We're supporting the students, but the change to actually how happening in us to be there where they are when they need us.
00:53:23
Speaker
Yeah, no. um You've also just inspired me. i tend to be the person who gets very, spend a lot of time around autistic kids. We have a great community. My son has like 10 best friends. me And I always find myself like, like, like a kid will say something and I might be the only adult who catches it. And I'm like, did you hear that? Like, like it's magic in my opinion.
00:53:45
Speaker
um And you just inspired me to, keep reminding people to pay attention. Yeah. do something with it. Because if you don't, you our kids communicate very differently. And if you missed it, then you've missed it. yeah You can't go back and be like, wait, say that again. that doesn't work that way.
00:54:01
Speaker
Asking for a repeat does not work head. You have on. Absolutely. um Well, this has been an amazing conversation. is there um anything else you want to leave us with? Tell us where we can find you, the Rebecca School.
00:54:13
Speaker
Any other resources? Sure. Check us out at Rebecca School. going to type it in my search bar, too, because I feel like I always get the. OK, great. I'll type it in so everybody has it.
00:54:29
Speaker
Rebecca school.org. I'm going to put it right in the website, in the chat box here. So everybody has it. oh awesome um We are on 21st street between Broadway and park.
00:54:44
Speaker
Very cool. Brand new, beautiful location. We are very lucky um to have ah such a new, beautiful building. And one thing that I want to emphasize for parents and families is that your kids deserve to have beautiful, nice things, right? When we were yeah we were building these two new schools last year, was a lot. We built two new schools at the exact same time. Whoa.
00:55:08
Speaker
Unplanned, but it happened and we had to run with it because I made that magic wand so I couldn't not. Yeah. But your kids deserve really nice things. They deserve beautiful buildings with windows and light and- windows yeah sensorly gyms and movement opportunities and fun so don't settle for the basement and the back Absolutely.
00:55:32
Speaker
and the basement in the back of the building is great and you're happy there and your kids are happy and they have great teachers that's fine but if something doesn't feel right to you trust your gut and look for something else because you deserve choice and Our kids deserve choice.
00:55:46
Speaker
Absolutely. And there is choice out there. And I think that's one of my missions is to make sure people know that there are other things ah besides the prescription that's being handed to you when you get a diagnosis.
00:55:58
Speaker
So, yes. Well, this has been amazing. i will link all the things you referenced um in the show notes and make sure everyone knows where to find you. um But thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining us.
00:56:09
Speaker
I hope you enjoyed learning about the Rebecca School as much as I did. I will link info about the school and anything else we referenced in the show notes. In the meantime, if you have questions, feel free to hit us up on Instagram over DM. You can check out our website or the Rebecca School's website and send us a message as well.
00:56:26
Speaker
Also, please be sure to keep an eye on our Instagram this week as we're going to be launching some merch um for April just to kind of put our stake in the ground around Autism Acceptance Month.
00:56:37
Speaker
And we'll start talking about summer classes and camps and all sorts of things soon. So please check us out and we will see you next week.