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Episode 6: Shifting Mindsets: A discussion on inclusion and why it matters.
64 Plays27 days ago
In this episode of DIVERG., we sit down with Dr. James Coviello for a nuanced conversation about the benefits of inclusion and what it takes to do it well. Beyond checkboxes and buzzwords, we explore how true inclusion fosters innovation, belonging, and meaningful progress in education. Dr. Covvielo shares insights on breaking down systemic barriers, designing environments that support neurodivergent individuals, and ensuring that inclusion is more than just a performative act. Whether you're a parent, educator, or advocate, this episode offers a thoughtful and actionable approach to building spaces where everyone thrives.
About Dr. Coviello
Work & Citations
NJCIE
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Mission
00:00:00
Speaker
And that is always a question about when people are like, you know, your kid's not ready to be in a gen ed setting. And then you're wondering like, wow, what does that really mean? Right? Because if you go in the gen ed setting and it's a bunch of first graders and they're expected to be sitting in their classroom while the teacher, you know, sits up in the front of the room and lectures for 15 minutes or something like that.
00:00:18
Speaker
I don't know how you how many first graders you've met. All the kids in different age groups, right? So to your point, right, why would you set a goal that you need to be able to sit and attend for a certain amount of time when you look at all the other Gen Ed kids and they can't sit and attend for that amount of time?
00:00:34
Speaker
Welcome to the Diverge podcast. Inclusive of autistic and other neurodivergent voices, we exist to bridge the gap between specialized knowledge and everyday parenting. We are on a mission to bring together the most forward-thinking experts who are deep in the trenches, championing neuroaffirming and developmentally-based approaches to therapy, education, and life.
00:00:55
Speaker
Design for parents, educators, friends, and allies. Conversation by conversation, insight by insight.
Introducing Dr. James Covello
00:01:02
Speaker
We are building community and making space for all kinds of lives.
00:01:11
Speaker
Hi everyone, it is February and we have a whole new batch of podcasts for you this month, ah but we're testing out a Tuesday drop, so thank you for your patience. um We wanted to kick off the month with a very robust discussion on inclusion with a good friend of mine, Dr. James Covello, who happens to also be both a parent of a kid in special ed, but an expert in inclusion.
00:01:36
Speaker
It's a really great conversation. James is amazing at holding nuance, ah but he is also very, very well versed in inclusion and the benefits and why it is something worth fighting for for all of our kids.
00:01:52
Speaker
So very excited to dive in. ah Before we do, I do want to acknowledge um sort of the ecosystem that we are sharing experiences from. um James and I both live in a very well-resourced district where for all intents and purposes, the schools that we send our kids to um are known as being some of the best in the state for their specific diagnosis.
00:02:17
Speaker
um There are a lot of resources. There are a lot of people fighting for a lot of different things. So if you find yourself listening and you have questions that are a little bit more specific to areas ah that maybe are maybe not as well resourced or have a smaller community, ah please feel free to reach out.
Dr. Covello's Background and Journey
00:02:36
Speaker
You can do it over Instagram, over DM, um or hit us up on the website and I'll do my best to get those questions answered.
00:02:43
Speaker
ah because we always want our conversations to be inclusive and applicable across the board. So really excited for today. Let's get into it. Hi, everyone. We are here today with Dr. James Cobiello, who is an expert in inclusion and equity leadership studies, and I'm going to have him introduce himself and give you a little bit about his background, but we are really excited to jump in.
00:03:09
Speaker
Yeah, so I'm James Covell. I'm an assistant professor of educational leadership in the Department of Administrative and Instructional Leadership at St. John's University in New York. um How did I get to all of this? I was actually born and raised in New Jersey. come my yeah Got my doctorate at the um University of Texas at El Paso, so all the way far west Texas. um I was a teacher, a classroom teacher for a decade and mostly in Catholic schools in New York and New Jersey.
00:03:38
Speaker
before I got my doctorate. I ended up in El Paso because my wife was in the military, which is usually the easiest thumbnail for explaining how I ended up in El Paso. and Yeah, 2,500 miles away, right?
00:03:50
Speaker
ye um and etc
00:03:54
Speaker
So, yeah, so i ah but that's part of my story of how I sort of study what I study as I walk into the university and you're ah you know in El Paso one day and I say, you know oh, I'm not really sure how long that army is going to keep us here and ah maybe I'll get another degree or something like that. you know my own My whole sort of goal was to be a principal or maybe you know eventually central office one day. and um And I walk in, and I'm talking to the program director, and he says, where are you from? What's your story? And I tell him, he's like, oh, you got to go down the hall, and you got to meet this other guy. So you're the only other person from in El Paso that's from New Jersey.
00:04:29
Speaker
um and So I got 2,500 miles away and I meet the only other person in El Paso, Texas from New Jersey. um he um He and I sort of hit it off. I took one of his classes, told him my story. He became um kind of my mentor. He said, hey, you know we we're looking to hire somebody to be a research assistant. Do you want to do that? I said, sure, that sounds great. I don't know what any of that means. but Yeah, sure. um I wrote something for his class and he said, oh, this is really great. You should publish that. And I was like, I have no idea what that means. um And so we sort of talked about it.
00:05:05
Speaker
and then working out with a lot of research projects with him um in El Paso was really great, you know kind of um learning and learning how to be a researcher and learning about um what it means to be an ah i an academic, I guess. um and But yeah, it turns out ah he ended up becoming so sort of an expert in inclusion and um really inclusion and and school principals and kind of ah what school principals do to foster more inclusive environments versus student for students with disabilities. um He became kind of a well-known expert in that area. um And so I did a little bit of that work with him when I was in El Paso.
Inclusion and Equity in Education
00:05:50
Speaker
Fast forward several years, I finished my degree, really focusing on kind of district level leadership.
00:05:57
Speaker
and kind of other areas where you know students who have kind of come from ah disadvantaged backgrounds, um you know what work you know school leaders and district leaders do ah for those kids, and um got hired at one university.
00:06:17
Speaker
COVID happened, moved back to New Jersey to be closer to family and friends. um And luckily, you found another position here at St. John's and I've been here ever since and I love it. So um part of what also kind of kept me going here was I'm a parent of a student with disability, right? um That was part of the kind of coincidence, right? I had started working with this professor at UTEP, UTL Passover, long before I ever had kids, right? And so it's kind of an interesting kind of ah convergence of the personal and the professional, I guess.
00:06:58
Speaker
Yeah, very interesting. um and In New Jersey of all states, little fun, heartwarming background for anyone listening. We actually met because our son hit it off um in a preschool program. And if I'm not mistaken, James' son was the first person my son ever called friend. They were like rough housing and probably wrestling.
00:07:23
Speaker
And the aide runs out after school one day and is like, they were talking to each other and playing. and He was like, hi, Fred. He was so excited that they were into each other. It was adorable. ah So yeah, ah we ah share a lot of experiences and in the same town. but Yeah, no. um if So one of the questions I ask everyone related to their sort of like field of focus is, if you could wave a magic wand, which I realize is not an academically minded question, ah what would you change about what's going on right now in terms of equity and inclusion um at the district level and why?
00:08:04
Speaker
Sure. um Although that's not, it doesn't sound like an academic kind of question. I do ask people that in my research. That's a great question. Because then it gets to like, what's the real big issue, right? That's like yeah the intractable kind of thing. Exactly. I mean, there are a lot. yeah I talked to some of the research I do is on yeah directors of special education, right? So all the kind of district level and directors, right? And they're supposed to be the ones kind of responsible for special education for the district.
00:08:34
Speaker
I mean, um obviously more than just them, um but you know, it's in their title. So um when I talk to them, a lot of them, um you know, refer to kind of mindset, which would be nice for to have that magic wand. yeah um Because there are a lot of different ah conception of kind of where kiddos with disabilities should be educated, how they should be educated, right? um So there's a lot of disagreement about that. There's a lot of disagreement about that in academia, yeah kind of among scholarly people too. ah But definitely on the district level, all throughout the state. So, you know, to also to give people background about New Jersey, you know, New Jersey has 600, approximately 600 school districts, right? So you have
00:09:19
Speaker
you know six hundred kind of um You could have 600 ideas of what inclusion looks like or how kids should be included or what least restrictive environment is for yeah a particular kiddo, right? um And so these directors you know ah get to enact that on that local level. And you know if you don't have a clear set of expectations of what that looks like,
00:09:42
Speaker
then you're going to get 600 different ideas of what that is. yeah um So yeah, so mindset might be that one part of the magic wand. I think the other one also touches on that 600 school districts thing is New Jersey is a pretty small state, right? like um really You know, geographically pretty small, we're pretty densely populated, but still pretty small state.
00:10:01
Speaker
um And we have all of these districts, teeny tiny districts, some of them, you know, only a few hundred students and therefore how many, you know, how many kids with disabilities are in each district. You're sort of spreading really thin all of the resources for those kids. Yeah.
00:10:18
Speaker
um you know So i i used to live in I lived in Maryland for a while, and and my son first got his diagnosis there. um And they have county-based school districts. um So Maryland's around the same size as New Jersey, you know more or less. um And they have 20 school districts, something like that, in the 20s. Yeah, 600. And so you're able to sort of spread out some of those resources and even out a little bit of the um the differences among different school districts. right I mean, that's some of the big issues you see here is if you're in a well-resourced district, you're able to sort of provide all these services and supports and things like that. and If you're not, the Tennessee, New Jersey, a lot of times it's just they get an out-of-district placement or something else. and There's a whole machine around out-of-district placements here. It's a lot of special ed ah private special ed schools. Yeah, drive it's mind-blowing.
00:11:11
Speaker
ah Yeah, very cool. That's really interesting. And a friend of mine is a teacher in Maryland at one point, and he said the same thing. He's like, things need to go county-based. Like, it makes such a difference in getting kids what they need. Yeah, and you're you're able to share services, right? That shared service model term that they use. and yeah Yeah, exactly.
00:11:31
Speaker
or just have you know options as parents, I feel. So getting into bit of nuts and bolts, this is a very basic question, but what is inclusion? What is equity? And and why does it matter specifically for neurodivergent and disabled kids, which is who we're talking about today?
00:11:51
Speaker
Sure. um Yeah, so I'm going to give you I'll give you my sort of definition, I guess, right? But the fact that I have a my definition means that there's a lot of other ones, right? So there's a lot of different kind of disagreement about
Perspectives and Challenges of Inclusion
00:12:03
Speaker
what all that means, right? um And so yeah, so, you know, when people talk about equity, a lot of times it sounds like equality.
00:12:10
Speaker
um And so, you know, you get that those terms kind of mixed up sometimes. um You know, equality means everybody gets the same thing, right? So, you know, everybody gets a certain amount of money to go to school or certain amount of funding, I guess, for for each kid or something like that, right? um And when you're talking about special education, that probably doesn't make any sense, right? Like these these would be kids or who might need more than others, more support than others. That's not what equity is, right? So equity is kind of ah being able to um you know provide the extra resources and attention for the kids that might need it. yeah There's a kind of a um you know if they kind of theoretical view of what equity might be or philosophical one I guess would be, you can kind of split up into three parts. so it could be
00:12:55
Speaker
It could be eat the distributive um in terms of funding. right In other words, like we need to distribute a certain amount of extra funding to to kids groups of kids that might need it. um Sort of like um associative kind of justice or associative equity. right So talking about like um people being able to band together and make decisions about the themselves and their own communities.
00:13:16
Speaker
And then associate or so I said associative already cultural will be the last one, right? So seeing their own sort of background and culture reflected in in a school, right? Right. So making sure all of those things are happening at the same time. um I think for what does inclusion mean is also a tricky one. Same thing, a lot of different definitions. Yeah. um About kind of what that means. If you want to point to the law, we can. But um yeah, I mean, ah you know There is a lot of disagreement kind of in ah in and among academic academics, right where um I've talked to people who who said, I'm a radical inclusionist. right like The general education environment is where um all kiddos have a right to be. right yeah um i've seen I've talked to other ah people, scholars and and practitioners and things like that.
00:14:08
Speaker
who said, you know, they that's probably true for the vast majority of kids, but maybe for other kids who really have these specific needs, they can't really be met in the classroom, maybe we have programs for them, you know, outside of the classroom. um And then you kind of have the the system that was in place for a really long time where it's kind of going on New Jersey right now, where it's kind of, you know, a lot of times kids are segregated for a huge part of the school day. um You know, and so I think for me,
00:14:37
Speaker
um You know, I try to be understanding of, you know, the perspective of parents and families and kiddos too, right? um Where, you know, I want to be kind of respectful of those parents who say, you know, I've been fighting this school district for years to get the kid, and my kid, the services that they need. And, you know, they want to take those away and put them in a gen ed classroom and and and call an inclusion.
00:15:04
Speaker
right And so I don't think that's quite the right term or the right way to go. right um So, yeah, I'm going to give you the the most wishy-washy, academic-y answer. so is is the The jury's still out, exactly. What it what does it mean? What does inclusion mean? Yeah. And the conversations I've had with you know a couple of other people What's so complicated about the system is there's a whole dictionary, I feel like, of tiers of support, of things that are supposed to be available to kids.
00:15:37
Speaker
with special needs in general education classrooms that parents don't necessarily know, like I didn't know, but I get a prize thrown at me every once in a while. you' You've got your coffee of prize. Like, wait, what is that? And the 70 billion documents I have to fish through email. And those aren't like well understood things unless there's someone coming alongside you to help you understand them. And that unfortunately goes back to the district and how much they care to help you understand them in some respects. And we have someone coming on the podcast in a couple of weeks who's very well versed in the tiers of supports and the different things that you need in mainstream. So if people are interested in that, stick around. um What is inclusion and equity not? Because I think that's a really fun conversation as well.
00:16:32
Speaker
Sure. um Yeah, I mean, I talked about the kind of what inclusion is not a little bit, right? A little bit, yeah. Yeah. um Yeah, so we talked about New Jersey before and, and you know, kind of the uniqueness of New Jersey. yeah um You know, when you look at one of the ah pieces of data that's required to be reported back from the states, right, so i IDEA requires all this kind of data be collected and reported back.
00:17:01
Speaker
And of course, one of them is having to do with laure check really restrictive environment where we have so many acronyms and and i in um special ed. So one of those, of course, is you know the percentage of kids who spends 80% or more of their day in a general ed classroom. right So that's one of the categories that they collect. yeah um And so people use that as a kind of a really rough estimate of what or how inclusive a state is. right And so New Jersey is last.
00:17:28
Speaker
New Jersey is 50 out of 50. And it's been bouncing around the among the lowest for a long time. Like sometimes we're 49 and sometimes we're 50. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. It's been like that for years. Right. you know And again, this is like i a lot of times I like to go to conferences, academic conferences and I tell people that and their eyes kind of widen. Yeah. Because generally New Jersey has a really good reputation for the quality of its school system, right? Yeah. um And so they kind of compare that to how could you be last, you know, for anything, right? Right. yeah um
00:18:03
Speaker
And so you know I think that's an issue. right i've kind of I've raised that in some of the conferences I go to, and I raise that in things that I write. um And so, you know yeah, I think that's...
The Role of Choice and Nuance in Education
00:18:14
Speaker
We'll probably maybe we'll talk more about that as this conversation goes on. Yeah, definitely.
00:18:18
Speaker
but um But yeah, so you know that's an issue. And so you know you're like, oh, well, you know you see ah there's um you know a headline I read once was like, you know New Jersey is the least inclusive state in the nation. So on that on then piece of data right there, right sure. um But you know really, ah the question becomes, what happens if you're you know really, really high on that inclusion number? right Let's say you're Alabama, you know when you're in the 80s, 80% of the kids with special needs spend 80% or more on the school day. um or I don't mean to disparage Alabama. um But if you have a school, if you have a state that has a really, really high inclusion rate as as measured by that, yeah you're like, oh, that that state must be really, really inclusive.
00:19:07
Speaker
Yeah, you're shaking your head, right? yeah um You know, that that's not necessarily the case, right? So, inclusion is not just putting kids in a genetic classroom and saying they're included. right right and If they're not receiving the supports and services that they need to thrive in those environments, then that's not truly inclusive, right? Correct. And so I think that's the big, what is it not, right? is um you know We collect data and we do all these kinds of things. We have these numbers, but really understanding kind of what they mean in
00:19:40
Speaker
And you know the the the micro rather than the macro is really important. Exactly. And just for context for listeners, um because when I brought up inclusion in our district, the lesson I got was, you know New Jersey, um as terrible as we are in inclusion, we were actually apparently champions of the self-contained classroom when everyone thought that was like the best idea. um So it is you know built into our laws. it's something people champion for. um And there are people who, frankly, have kids in their 30s and 40s who are very proud of the fact that New Jersey has gotten to that place. um So I never want to discount the ah efforts of parents who came before us, but I think it's very similar um to conversations I've had around different types of therapies and things. People need choices.
00:20:29
Speaker
Right? Because the one conversation, especially when you're talking about certain diagnoses, everyone, like no two diagnoses present the same way, right? And if you don't have choice and options, like kids get shuffled into programs that that might not work for them. And so I appreciate that you hold nuance, your opinions of how things are working. um But I think to your point, getting to that place where It's good, regardless of what the stat is, is the ultimate goal. Yeah. You know, like ah if there is um one thing I could call for more of, right, yeah is nuance, especially for for academics or scholarly kind of people, right, is intellectual humility, right? um yeah You know, we it is foolish for anybody to say they know everything about anything.
00:21:26
Speaker
um And, you know, you go back decades to your point, right? You go back decades, it was like, well, we this is what we thought was the right thing, right? was We did this thing. We're very proud of it. And you should be, um because you were getting your kiddo services, you know, and supports. um And so, you know, yeah, how in 10 or 20 years from now, what are we gonna say that we were doing, right? and We may be making mistakes right now, we're just not aware of. Right. um So yeah, I think that's ah that's a good kind of you know, North Northern Star to keep a cute friend.
Benefits and Drawbacks of Inclusion Methods
00:21:57
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. Um, so it's kind of the bigger conversation because this is where I think it comes down to boots on the ground and parents. Um, how does inclusion and equity benefit outcomes and, and does it matter? Right. If the child is quote unquote gen ed ready.
00:22:18
Speaker
um like Does being grade level matter? like How do these things sort of factor into producing the best outcomes, or do they? Yeah. um all so First, you know you don't need to prove that you're ready to be in a Gen Ed classroom. right i mean Legally, you you don't. um Right. Agreed. but That is not how the law is written. Yeah, it's not. um and so Yeah, so that's that's, you know, that's, that's that mindset thing, if you could, you know, we have the magic wand, that's part of it. now But yeah, so I think, um you know, what does it really mean? um Or what, what benefits does it have, right? So
00:23:01
Speaker
um you know there are There's a lot of research on the academic benefits benefits of inclusion. The basic idea like is, it you know is there some we're going to use the term magic again. There's just some magic for being in that classroom. Not necessarily magic, right? but right um inclusion might help academically in ways that are not so obvious for just being in the room. What I mean is, you know if you have to have an extra adult in the room for that kid's support, if you need to be very intentional about your planning and approach for that kid and alter instruction, um you know modify the curriculum, things like that, or modify instruction,
00:23:42
Speaker
you know, maybe you have ah a team teaching model, your co teaching model going on with a special educator and and a general educator. um All of a sudden, that's gonna be good for everybody. Right? All of a sudden, it's, you know, those teachers are now being really intentional about, you know, the work that they're doing, they're working together, they're pooling their expertise, they are bringing in all these other kind of resources. i You know, all of a sudden now,
00:24:08
Speaker
And then all of a sudden, through all of this work and attention to get that kid included, um you know the sort of the model of instruction is changing and improving, yeah which is good for the kid with but with disabilities, but it's also good for all the other kids in that room, right? And research kind of backs it up. Exactly. Yeah.
00:24:24
Speaker
And so, you know, yeah, so so there there are, um you know, academic benefits, um again, if done correctly, if done well, right um you you know, with all those other supports and services that I mentioned, as long as the kids IEP still being, um you know, actually followed, then yeah, it could be a really, really positive academic benefit. It's also social benefits too, right? for Again, for everybody in the room, right? So obviously for the kiddo with disabilities, but also all the other kids too.
00:24:53
Speaker
Right? You talked about, parents you know, our parents' generation and say, you know, how many kids with disabilities did you see growing up? And they're going to give you a blank stare. Yep. You know, because before the 70s, it was depending on what state you're in. um You know, those kids were not entitled to an education. And so, um you know, understanding that there is, which I know is part of the theme of this podcast, right? is As long as you know that there is a wide variety of what it means to be human. Right.
00:25:20
Speaker
part of understanding that is being able to grow up with kids that are maybe a little bit different than you. Right. Exactly. So there's also, again, a lot of social benefits, like academic benefits, um I think. I know that we're going to talk about ah kind of research that which pushes back on that. or Yeah, definitely. That article that caused such a fun stir. Yeah, I think it's you know it's interesting too. One of the things I always think about in terms of inclusion is the amount of stories coming out lately.
00:25:49
Speaker
um because I deal you know a lot in the world of autism, is you know these kids who kind of understood everything all along but just didn't have a reliable way of communicating. um There's a story of a girl named Jordan Zimmerman, who was like, I was dying in my self-contained classroom. She's like, I was being made a point to my nose all day long and I had ideas and thoughts and all sorts of things to communicate, I just couldn't. I feel like that is such a benefit of even if for a portion of the day getting our kids into places where they're just around life happening in some respects because there's so much more going on there than we the people want us to acknowledge. Yeah, and I think i think one of the other things is um there was a great, it was like a great case study. It was like um
00:26:39
Speaker
was George Theodore Harris from Syracuse. um and Effectively, it just sort of pokes a hole in the self-contained classrooms are are you know where you know real specialized attention is is paid and they're a a better fit for the kid because there are quieter places that are more you know separate from the genetic classroom, which can be so chaotic. so you when you When you have these you know, um when you have these separate locations, these, you know, um you know, these these self contained classes that they are better for the kiddo, right? That a a lot of times you'll you'll hear in New Jersey child study teams, right? You'll hear ah your case manager, your child study team will say like, you know, well, this is a better place for him or her because, again, it's quiet, there's less going on, they can have more focused attention from all these other adults and things like that.
00:27:33
Speaker
But then you go in one of those classrooms. They're not quiet. I was waiting for that to come up. I was like, they're not quiet. They're actually very overwhelming.
Systemic Constraints and Academic Discussions
00:27:41
Speaker
There's a lot going on, right? There's a concentration of cacophony of all of those kiddos who maybe would be in, you know, 10 different classrooms. We would put one in each class or two in each class. Now they're all together. Sometimes wrestling apparently. triggering all kinds of behavior, things like that. But also, yeah, there's no guarantee that you're being exposed to any kind of grade level curriculum. I mean, listen, I'm not knocking at anybody who's a self-contained teacher, you're doing a great job right now, right? You could be a killer instructor and amazing and following as close as possible to the grade level curriculum, right?
00:28:24
Speaker
um you know but you know, being sold this idea that, you know, self contained is better because of all these other reasons, you know, um the problem is, as, as I'm sure, you know, you know, is, um we're not in schools, my parents aren't in schools, even in, you know, people like me, um aren't in schools all the time. I try to be, but yeah, but we're not. And so It's hard to know what's actually going on. right You may do a visit or something like that once in a while, but otherwise, it's really very hard to tell, especially when you have kids that really can't communicate those things to you when they come home. 100%. One of the things we've seen too, just you know making sure we give
00:29:08
Speaker
teachers a little bit of a break here is, you know, um but especially with my son, like as he's grown in his ability to communicate, it's not just like spoken language that's starting to like come out more. Like he's able to express in different ways that he's scared of things or that things are overwhelming that were probably overwhelming two years ago, but he didn't have a way of letting anyone know. He just kind of shut down. And so that's another nuance on top of it. It's like there's just, there's so much there.
00:29:38
Speaker
um that's so hard to navigate. and i think I think also, yeah, to give, yeah, I also want to give some space here um to teachers, right? yeah um Everybody in schools is working within the sort of rules and systems and policies and procedures that are in place, right? and And working within these programs that were created a lot of times way before they got there and will probably still be there when they're gone. um And so, you know,
00:30:03
Speaker
Yeah, you have to kind of give everybody a little bit of grace in terms of The world that they're living in and working in right now. Um, a lot of times They don't have the power to change all that right? um, even you know, even people like directors right as much as I um, I love them and I study them and and I know that the work that they're doing is really tough Um, they do have the power to change some things but not everything right? You're right. Exactly um, so speaking of that article by our friend Fuchs. I think it's a study that's coming out, right? like this yeah it's forthcoming It is forthcoming. So there might not be much dialogue that we can have around it. But do you have kind have any thoughts? It definitely caused a bit of a stir in some places. So curious what your thoughts are.
00:30:50
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I got I got a text message like Tuesday night from a colleague of mine. Yeah. saying did your did you see like um And I also chatted with chat with some other people. Yeah, it's been it's been a conversation going on this entire week, actually, considering it's an article that has not come out yet. um Yeah, there was an article about the article, right? An article about the um Yeah, so I mean, like, you know, ah What's my role as an academic, right? Is, um you know, I'm not going to criticize something that I haven't read yet. um You know, at the end, it has not been published. um I'm also
00:31:29
Speaker
um you know, like I said before, leaving room for nuance, perhaps, right? Yeah. um I also know that like, I generally have never submitted anything to um a pre print, it was a a like a a copy of the an article before it's been published. I've never done that and submitted it to a a news organization and said, you know, publish this thing about this thing doesn't come out yet, right? Dude, I know PR just let me know next time. all that what
00:32:00
Speaker
That to me raises an eyebrow, right? you and Is this being done for the sake of you know the knowledge base and inclusion and to engender constructive conversation about what is the right approach for the nuanced, to talk about that nuancedling nuanced thing, nuanced discussion about the benefits of inclusion, right? It does not seem to be perhaps what this is intended to be.
00:32:29
Speaker
Right. Doesn't mean its necessarily that it's a bad article, right? Right. But the one of the other things I'll say is, again, just based on what I've read, right, which is an article about the article, um is, you know, ah the sort of the ending of that piece was a little bit of kind of what we had talked about here, right, which is, you know, what does it mean to be included Effectively, and right? And so if you have really high inclusion rates or if you're included in a classroom But you're not actually being supported if the teachers are not being trained if there's not an overall model for what that looks like um And the leadership necessarily make it happen and you know again effectively, right? um Then sure you're gonna get a bunch of studies that saying maybe humans not so good in these other places or it's there or
00:33:21
Speaker
um you know or the data is unclear and and exactly the effect of of the the positive academic benefits. The other thing is, the other little part of that article, again, now I'm speaking a little bit at a turn, but um again, focused mostly on kind of academic benefits. Yes, it did. Unless so on like maybe social benefits or some of these other things. Exactly.
00:33:40
Speaker
Well, what was interesting was academic benefits specific to intensive instruction from the way it was worded. You've met my kid, he's not doing anything intensively, except play with his cards. So he'll never look at a letter again if we go to hardcore. So I think there's a whole conversation around that as well. um Maybe, I don't know.
00:34:05
Speaker
i mean you know oh yeah yeah i ah you know, ah the the whole way in a perfect world, ah the whole way, ah academia is supposed to work and the the whole knowledge base around a subject is supposed to sort of evolve. Right? Because these things happen, right? Right. There are a bunch of studies that say this, and then someone says, Well, what about this, I have this other data that says this, and you say, Oh, that's really interesting. Let me check that out, right? You don't just, um I'm really very careful here, right? Like, I don't want to just jump all over this thing. is like ah right so this is not yeah It's is not how this game is supposed to be played. right um and so We take it seriously, we look at it and we sort of put it in context of what else is
Systemic Change Requirements and Challenges
00:34:48
Speaker
going on. right um If you have this whole big, broad you know knowledge base that says one thing and then then another study comes in and says something else, you don't just toss the rest of those. Absolutely. That body of research. right when you take it But you take it seriously. yeah What does this place have to say?
00:35:05
Speaker
unless the headline starts bouncing around the internet before anybody's read that. I mean, that's the that is the there are there are the politics of academia, right? Yes, I'm sure. Yeah.
00:35:18
Speaker
Absolutely. um So let's talk a little bit about the work that you do. um So it focuses mostly on equity-driven decision-making, more at the administrative and board level. I did read one of your papers. I'm sorry about that. No, it was great. um I was actually really surprised. So as a parent, no, on myself, not that you put prices out for that.
00:35:44
Speaker
It's okay. i You're over here you're like fighting for all these things, right? And like, my kid needs this, or I want more of this. And you're doing it primarily with like your case you child case study team. Maybe a director gets involved, maybe not. um But at the end of the day, there really are a lot of politics that go into what anyone is allowed to do.
00:36:05
Speaker
And that was what was most intriguing about the article, as you explain a lot about that. um So maybe like taking a step back, can you explain a little bit about what needs to happen within a district for a real systemic change to happen around something?
00:36:19
Speaker
um Yeah, I mean, you know, so I will give the um unsatisfying academic key kind of answer, which is it's complicated. um It is complicated. Yeah. and It's also ah context dependent, right, which is another ah unsatisfying answer for me to give. Right.
00:36:37
Speaker
um Yeah, but so what has to happen? um So yeah it there's got to be sort of a broad-based buy-in, right? So that's one thing, right? Anybody who's worked in an organization, any kind of organization, schools and outside of schools, right? Right. is ah you know The boss can come in and say one thing and say, here's what we're doing, right? Yep. And you know if you don't convince everybody in the organization that this is in their best interest somehow, or this is in everyone's, I guess, everyone's best interest, yeah.
00:37:07
Speaker
um you know People are going to drag their feet. They're going to take what they think could be useful. This is also backed up by research, right? You'll come in and you'll say, all here's the new policy. Here's what we heard the new change that we're making. And you'll say, OK, great. You'll you'll kind of take a little bit of that and and go with what you think might work within your situation, kind of ignore the rest or yeah know sort of minimize it as much as possible. Or or at least like give the higher ups an idea that like you're generally following what their directive is, but like try to make it work for you. right yeah
00:37:39
Speaker
um And that's certainly true for schools, right? and many Many a um politician, superintendent, principal have expended so much time into their lives to try to change what actually goes on in classrooms yeah and has failed have failed miserably. Because without kind of getting teachers on board and honestly the entirety of the organization, stakeholders, all these things. It's really, really hard, right? You could get, and we talk about inclusion all the time, you could get all the teachers on board with inclusion, and you can get the child study team or the IEP team, right? For those people outside of Jersey. um You can get everybody on board with inclusion. You know, great, sounds good. But if parents are against it,
00:38:20
Speaker
Right? Forget it. You know, they're gonna drag their feet. They're gonna start suing you because your district is too inclusive, right? You're like, I want my services back. I need my myself contained classroom, right? So yeah, um it really needs to be broad based, right? It needs to be systemic in that way, right? um yeah You need to change people's minds to a certain degree and to convince them that what you're the changes you're going to do are actually going to work. um A lot of times they need to see it to believe it. Yeah. um You know, well, how can my kiddo you know How can my kid get their needs met academic needs met in this classroom? What are you going to do to make that happen? I don't i don't understand how that's possible. and If you can show people that it can be done, then maybe they'll believe it.
00:39:03
Speaker
so yeah so Unfortunately, it takes a lot of people. Now, of course, you know the corollary to all this is explaining all that means it takes time. Yeah. um And so time is unfortunately the thing that most parents and kids don't have. Right. um You know, so it's again, it's easy for me to sit in my ivory tower in my suit and tie and say, well, this takes time and we just need to change people's minds and keep working and moving them all forward and things like that. Right. um So sometimes it does require
00:39:36
Speaker
people to complain and get mad about things. yeah Sometimes it requires people, at least the way IDEA is currently set up, is requires people to complain and sue and due process and all those other things, right? um yeah So that also requires some of that too. The the other thing I will say is um I really try to um understand ah kind of what's going on within a state. I'm always interested in kind of state level and district level, certainly district level politics, right? right man And so I think that's a big part of this, right, is, you know, if you look at the administrative code kind of policy that everybody follows, and by the way, all special educators should know, and a lot of them do know it really, really well because they know, like, if I'm going to get in trouble, it's going to be, you know, because I'm not following the rules, right? So a lot of them are really hyper fixated on the rules. um Take a look at those rules, see what it actually says about inclusion.
00:40:35
Speaker
Right. Not a heck of a lot other than that least restrictive environment, and you get to determine what the heck that actually means. Right, least restrictive environment, that feels very vague. It is, yeah right?
00:40:46
Speaker
um you know the the or but i have a You have not read this paper yet because this paper is ah still being reviewed. um But this is one of the things I kind of have written about is you know and And people have written about this about principles, but I did it for directors of special education, right? Is um their role in kind of interpreting what that means, right? Of what what is the least restrictive environment is not necessarily set in stone. And and by set in stone, I mean in policy. right yeah it's not It doesn't say when this kid comes in and they have these particular
00:41:24
Speaker
um kind of struggles, um you know here's where they go and here's the services that they get, plug and play and there you go. right like the The reason why I know that's not true is if you have a kid with a certain classification, depending what state you're in,
00:41:42
Speaker
yeah but all different kinds of environments and supports and services you're provided. Even within one state, it depends on what district. You could be in the district right next door and get a completely different set of services and and a completely different um placement. yeah Just from one district to another, even within schools from in the same district.
00:42:01
Speaker
um If you're in a, you know, I do some of this work in in other states, where, you know, one principal may have one conception of what inclusion looks like, then the principal next door has a different one, and that kid, just from one school to the other, we get a completely different set sort of so crazy of placement options. Yeah. Well, and I think too, for certain students who come into the system before kindergarten, right, they don't really get place in general education settings, because not everybody is getting that. And then they're sort of like pinned as needing a certain type of environment when they've never even been backed into it, right? like Nobody's ever given them a week in a classroom with just general age preschoolers to see what happens. So that's a very unique battle around here. Yeah, I think, you know, yeah, to to get into the weeds very briefly, one of the other things that I'm really interested in
00:42:57
Speaker
done is in the law. right In IDEA, they refer to the term supplementary agent services. yes right and so You're not supposed to be able to remove a kid from the Gen Ed setting um effectively unless they've been given the opportunity with supplementary agent and services. right so The actual text kind of talks about You know, they're not being they're not able they're not supposed to be removed from that setting um unless they're this you know the ah their disability does not allow them to be in there with supplementary agent services. Right. And so my question always is like,
00:43:37
Speaker
especially for you know maybe a kid in pre-K. Have you tried putting that kid in that setting with some supplementary aids and services? Maybe defining what some of those are um um you know and seeing how that kid does in that setting. right The fact that pre-K gets segregated along disability is wild. Yeah, it's it's something right. Yeah. And we've had I've had this conversation with with other diehards. But I think the tricky part about preschool is they get segregated. And then the goals are goals you sometimes would never give a three year old like
00:44:19
Speaker
three-year-olds typically don't sit in chairs. for like that i um And if they do, it's for a very small amount of time. And so you start working on things that aren't necessarily developmentally appropriate to get them ready for the next step. And it's like, they could all just be playing together. Right? Yeah. Well, you're gonna you said you're having somebody come on talk about MTSS? ah Yes. Like multi multi system as well. That's okay. No, no, just very briefly, right? Like that's the excuse me,
00:44:48
Speaker
um That is always a question about when people are like, you know, your kid's not ready to be in a gen ed setting. And then you're wondering like, well, what does that really mean? Right? Because if you go in the gen ed setting, and it's a bunch of first graders, and they're expected to be sitting in their classroom while the teacher, you know, sits up in the front of the room and lectures for 15 minutes, something like that. Yeah. I don't know how you how many first graders you've met. No, um right that that does not seem to be and that would be that that's what that tier one is supposed to be, right? You're supposed to sort of see what is actually going on in broadly the instructional model of the school and whether it's meeting those sort of like expectations of what effective instruction looks like for those kids. For those kids, yeah. All the kids in different age groups, right? So to your point, right, why would you set a goal that you need to be able to sit and attend for a certain amount of time when you look at all the other gen ed kids and they can't sit and attend
Parental Involvement and Advocacy
00:45:39
Speaker
for that amount of time? No, they don't. And their classes are broken up, I think at one point I was told.
00:45:44
Speaker
um with all the diplomacy in the world, oh, we like to get them to like 50 minutes. And a friend of mine was like, 50 minutes? So-and-so's library class is 15 minutes doing this, and then 15 minutes doing this, and 15 minutes doing this. Nobody's sitting for 50 minutes. And I was like, fair enough. Aside from the fact that, yes, the tension span of a first grader is about 18.
00:46:09
Speaker
seven me um Amazing. Yeah. So when it comes to decisions, I think, you know, again, parents have, um if we have to do what we have to do for our kids. um But it does often feel like there's not as much buy in as there should be. So do you have any like, just kind of key takeaways um for those who are working to create a little bit more alliance? Like, how do they do that? um How do they start to
00:46:41
Speaker
at least acknowledge like the goals of the superintendent, the goals of the board, the goals of different people um as we're advocating for our kids, whether in groups or individually. It's tough. um Yeah, it's tough, right? Yeah. um The first thing I'll say is i um so i like whenever I write about special education, I usually refer to ah this one author who studies the law in special ed. And the phrase that I probably use all the time is the litigious nature of special education. I think I've written that probably 10 times. yeah um So part of the part of the issue with, I mean, part of the issue just with special ed in general, and I may be IDEA if I want to pick on it a little bit, is it relies on individual parents, families um to
00:47:33
Speaker
you know, sue to make change, right? It relies on individual ah people to sort of, um you know, go go up for mediation and new process and things like that to try to make the the changes they need for their kiddo. Right. um But so automatically, because it's so litigious, because there are so many lawsuits, depending what state you're in, especially a place like New Jersey, um you know, everybody is just on um walking on eggshells absolutely during IEP meetings, especially in their effectively you know legal proceedings. yeah um and you know They know that whatever they say, if they say the wrong thing at IEP, they could be held accountable to that. right yeah For the parents and also for their director, if they promise something at an IEP meeting and they can't deliver, oh my goodness gracious.
00:48:22
Speaker
yeah um Their director can be furious, or if you if you promise a gold-plated iPad, you better deliver that gold-plated iPad, right? yeah um so um It's very, very hard. I want to sit here and say, like hey, listen, we're all on the same team here. We all need to be understand that we all have our kids' best interests in mind, right? um And I think, for the most part, that's probably true. But um but it's really, really hard, if you're a parent, right, yeah um to go in there and say, you know well here's the situation. Here's what I here's what i think.
00:48:55
Speaker
um And you know you can't really have that back and forth during an IEP meeting just because of the kind of the situation that you're in. right Having said that,
00:49:06
Speaker
um I think ah you know there you know we can um have a kiddo's best interest in mind and still you know um If you're a child study team or an administrator or something like that, um you know sometimes there is a ah ah friction between what's best for an individual kid and kind of what's going on in the larger system. right um you know The director is there looking at the special ed budget.
00:49:42
Speaker
um The superintendent is probably the school board yeah um and seeing that special ed budget and saying, holy cow, like what do we need to do yeah to pay for this for this kiddo and and and and meet their needs? um and so Sometimes those are in conflict. right and so um you know for For administrators or teachers out there, right for a parent, it's terrifying. You walk into this room, everybody has letters after their name,
00:50:11
Speaker
Yeah, I'm right with big fancy titles and things like that. um They have all this kind of training and background. um Most of the time, the only training and background you have is being a parent of that kiddo, right? right yeah um And, so you know, how do you You know, interact with these people who have these diagnostic tools that say this about your kid and that about your kid, right? And you say, well, that's not what I'm seeing or that's all my kids like. And they're saying, well, that's what it is. And and here's where I think they should go. And here's the kind of services I think they need.
00:50:42
Speaker
um You know, most people do not, I mean, you know, this most people do not have the sort of firepower, economic firepower to go hire attorneys and advocates and things like that. absolutely Right. And so it's really, really hard um to be in that kind of situation um and not get upset and push back. And, you know, and if you're on the other side of the table and you're a parent or or excuse me, if you're a teacher or a an administrator, um you know you know it's it's a hard job. yeah you know I will also say that. right yeah and so you know You are getting pushed in different directions and things like that. and um so I don't want to dismiss that those concerns either. um I think it's up to you. right i If you're in the kind of district where people will don't listen to you unless you're the squeaky wheel,
00:51:36
Speaker
then you need to be a squeak of wait yeah um If you are the kind of person that was raised where somebody said, you know, you can attract more flies with honey, then you use that honey. yeah If that's working for you or, ah you know If you have a community of people that you can sort of lean on within your district, New Jersey has CPAGs, right? Yeah. So special education, parent you know, advisory groups. Yes. And they have different, I think most states have some version of it. Different kinds of things, right? Different versions of that. Different names.
00:52:08
Speaker
He's mandated that each district is supposed to have one, right? So, um you know, a lot of times getting in contact with parents, going to board meetings, things like that. um You don't even need to be a super squeaky wheel. You just sort of show up and, you know, yeah um you know speak your concerns. I'm talking super and um like superintendents of really large really large city districts. one of my One of the lines that stands out to me, I want to talk to one of them once, was a district this large, you'll have a handful of parents and they will change direction.
00:52:37
Speaker
right yeah If you have enough parents that well or enough people that will show up to a board meeting and get really upset about something, yeah even in a district of 30,000 or something like that, you know you could yeah because sway the board.
Resource-Rich Districts and Special Education
00:52:48
Speaker
Very interesting. um Good to know. so We do that sometimes. but difficult um yeah no That's amazing and really helpful advice. so I feel like kind of on the heels of the system being you know Kind of nuts. Do you have any advice for balancing competing needs when advocating? right So like for example, one of the situations we got into with my son was the baseline therapy that wasn't was being used just wasn't working. um Transparently, if I could go back to age three and put him in a more inclusive environment, we probably would have had a much better result because the pressure would have been off of him. um But then when we get to like kindergarten, right the question is,
00:53:35
Speaker
Do I work on getting the school to implement more relationship based approaches, which is kind of what works for us or. do I work on getting someone to just put him in a different type of classroom? like How do you balance the fact that inclusion probably would have solved all the problems in the beginning? Maybe not all of them, but it would have helped versus like, okay, now I know what I need to do to kind of undo some stuff. so like How do I pick? What's the avenue that's worth my effort in a district that has resources but limited energy? Yeah, rather yeah you're going to hate my answer.
00:54:11
Speaker
but probably not No, um no, because my answer is going to be super wishy washy and full of gray, right? Yeah. um Is the most frustrating thing that I say or academic kind of people say is always is it depends, right? Yeah. Or the the term always is context dependent. Yeah. um And that's the problem with just then that's just life and schools, I guess. Yeah. In particular, right? New Jersey, again, has 600 districts and so 600 different kinds of things are going on.
00:54:40
Speaker
um depending where you are in the United States. right There's over 13,000 school districts in the US, right so you have 13,000 different little fiefdoms of issues and problems in history that you have to wade through.
00:54:51
Speaker
um so ah yeah so Here's what I would say. um I would say ah you have to sort of decide um and take stock ah in terms of what your priority is. right i mean i think um you know, if you can get the most traction with, hey, listen, um I think my kiddo could do a really good job here, given these rights, sort of supports and services. He's, he's little, right? They're not asking too much of a pre K kid, I think perfectly fine to have him in there.
00:55:30
Speaker
He had he's already been given it here he has an aid or whatever, you know, like, whatever that is. yeahs Like, this is a totally doable thing, friends. You're gonna have that conversation and and that works. Then that's great, right? If you need to have the conversation of, you know, we don't have any of these services, he doesn't have a para, you know, or they don't think he needs one or um you know Yeah, then you need to have a different kind of conversation rate with people in your district. If your district has a huge amount of resources um you know that's a good and a bad thing sometimes because a lot of those are really funny. First of all, you you come across a funny special education comic.
00:56:14
Speaker
strip, it right? And one of them was, I can't remember the person who does them. He's he's fantastic. I think I think it's he is fantastic. like um One of them was a, ah you know, effectively, a special education system, you know, teetering on the brink about to fall off a cliff or something like that. They said, quick, add another para. yeah right It'll save the system, right? Just, you know, a lot of times if you have even well resource districts,
00:56:41
Speaker
um The system and model that they have in place doesn't make any sense. They'll sort of just fill the holes with resources. yeah um right seriously like oh ah Give the kid a pair. Exactly. and That's one of the things I wanted to mention to people listening because we we do pop up in different places. New Jersey has a lot of problems that are brought on by an excess amount of parental involvement and resources. Other places you might be fighting for bare minimum.
00:57:07
Speaker
um So same principles apply, but just know that we're coming from a little bit of a chaotic place over here. Yeah. You know, I think, yeah, I think that's a good point, right? is um Yeah, it depends on where you're living right in terms of what the priority is, just in terms of basic resources. um New Jersey has that sort of ability to paper over issues yes um with money.
00:57:33
Speaker
right is Part of the reason they have all of this free great, I mentioned in in the very beginning here, ah they have this great sort of reputation. um because they have the money. um You know, they're able to pay for a lot of these things. And if there are issues, right, they can just pay for a para and yeah see what
Conclusion and Upcoming Content Preview
00:57:51
Speaker
happens or something. Yeah, exactly. yeah This is amazing. Where can people find you in your amazing body of work? um Where can you find me? um I'm not really on Twitter anymore.
00:58:00
Speaker
Let's wait a break. um No, so where can you find me? um I present at conferences in New Jersey. um ah The New Jersey Coalition of Inclusive Education has a twice yearly conference, which is fantastic. please go If you have the ability to attend, please attend. I present there sometimes. I present my work at different kinds of academic key conferences nationally, which unless you if you want to come and fall asleep in the back, you're perfectly fine.
00:58:27
Speaker
um and um ah But yeah, but ah you can find me if you want to email me and ask me questions, things like that, reach out. You can just go on to St. John's. I'm from St. John's. um but I'm a Johnny, so ah look me up there, ask me questions. Hit me up on LinkedIn. I don't know what to do. Awesome. I'll put some links in this in the show notes so people can access some of the stuff we talked about and read and catch up with you today. Sounds good. All right, awesome. Well, thank you so much. This is great.
00:58:55
Speaker
um ah Yeah, I'm excited to to dive into more of this some of the stuff you referenced. Thanks for having me. Awesome. Thanks.
00:59:04
Speaker
Hi, everyone. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did and learned as much as I did. um As always, the show notes um will link any references we made throughout the episode um so that you can read more or learn more and just do a little bit more research. ah Throughout the episode, I did want to know, we talked a lot about something called tears of support, ah which is a pretty common special education term. But in a couple of weeks, we're going to have another inclusion expert on the podcast who is very well versed not just in tiers of support but what that looks like that preschool setting like before you go um into kindergarten which I know for some districts is a huge conversation. I as a parent am very passionate about making sure that parents who are just starting on this journey have as much information about their options and choices as possible.
00:59:55
Speaker
ah So that's going to be a podcast you do not want to miss because it is filled with things I wish I had known when we were just kind of starting out on our journey. ah So as always, thank you for listening. It is such a privilege to have your ear for a full hour every week. um And I can't wait to see you next week.