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Episode 3: Strength in Connection: Mindfulness, Relationship and Strength Based Approaches to Autism Therapy
102 Plays1 month ago
Dr. Deirdre Azzopardi, Founder, The Mindful School O.T.
In this episode of The DIVERG. Podcast, we explore the transformative power of connection in autism therapy. Join us as we dive into the importance of mindfulness, building strong relationships, and using strength-based approaches to support neurodivergent children.
We take a closer look at DIR Floortime, a developmentally-based and relationship-focused therapy model that emphasizes meeting children where they are and supporting their growth through play, connection, and joy. With practical insights and real-world examples, we discuss how these approaches can empower families to move beyond a “fix-it” mindset and instead celebrate the unique strengths and perspectives of their children.
Whether you’re a parent, educator, or caregiver, this episode will leave you inspired to embrace connection as a cornerstone of autism therapy—and to see the incredible potential that blossoms when we focus on strengths, not deficits.
The Mindful School OT
Episode Resources:
ICDL (Home of DIR/Floortime)
DIR/Floortime Evidence Based
DIR/Floortime Trainings & Courses
Studies on Mindfulness/Restraint:
Mindful staff can reduce the use of physical restraints when providing care to individuals with intellectual disabilities.
Effects of Training Staff in MBPBS on the Use of Physical Restraints, Staff Stress and Turnover, Staff and Peer Injuries, and Cost Effectiveness in Developmental Disabilities.
Effectiveness of caregiver training in mindfulness-based positive behavior support (MBPBS) vs. training-as-usual (TAU): a randomized controlled trial.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to DIR and Child-Led Approaches
00:00:00
Speaker
So I think sometimes people think like DIR is following a kid around and and just doing what they do, right? Right. You know, follow their lead, do what they do, that kind of stuff. And yes, there is that. But it's because the relationship, right, becomes more solid and the kid feels safer, then you can introduce new things and we can go different places. But, you know, we only take risks, right, when we feel safe. If we don't feel safe, we're going to keep doubling down on just staying the same.
00:00:28
Speaker
yeah yeah Well, this idea of safety, like, you know, just thinking about that from a kid's point of view, especially a kid who has very strong interests. You know, when somebody comes in and says, you know, your interests are really cool. yeah I love it. And oh my gosh, tell me more. Of course a kid can then feel enough safety in that relationship where they can start to take risks.
Bridging Knowledge and Parenting with Neuroaffirming Approaches
00:00:54
Speaker
Welcome to The Diverge Podcast. Inclusive of autistic and other neurodivergent voices, we exist to bridge the gap between specialized knowledge and everyday parenting. We are on a mission to bring together the most forward-thinking experts who are deep in the trenches championing neuroaffirming and developmentally-based approaches to therapy, to education, and life. Designed for parents, educators, friends, and allies, conversation by conversation, insight by insight,
00:01:21
Speaker
We are building community and making space for all kinds of minds. Today on the podcast, we are talking about mindfulness and strength-based approaches to autism therapy with Dr. Deidre Azaparte. I will introduce her and her credentials in a few, but first I just wanted to mention that this is the first time we mentioned something called DIR Floor Time on the podcast.
00:01:43
Speaker
As you know here at Diverge, we are huge fans of developmentally based therapies and DIR floor time happens to be one of my personal favorites. When we first started implementing its principles about a year and a half ago with my son, it really gave us permission to work with what was already working and focus on supporting his development in a way that aligned with the values of our household.
Benefits of Supportive Environments in Autism Therapy
00:02:05
Speaker
And one of the things that was absolutely wonderful to watch unfold in that process was that the principles of DIR made my son so much more comfortable in expressing what he knew to us. So we got a lot more language, a lot more engagement, a lot more interaction.
00:02:23
Speaker
But also we really were able to see some of the areas where he struggled because he was a lot more comfortable letting us know when he couldn't do something because the environment was just so much more supportive as a whole. And having that more supportive environment as 360 in his life has really produced an amazing amount of skills and communication and engagement with the world around him. And it has just been absolutely magical to watch.
Framework and Applications of DIR FloorTime
00:02:51
Speaker
For those of you who are unfamiliar with DIR, FloorTime DIR is a framework for understanding human development and learning. And this understanding of development is coupled with a person's unique individual differences and of course relationship to promote a more naturalistic approach to helping everyone reach their full potential. FloorTime is the application of the DIR um model put into practice and it is child-led and a play-based approach.
00:03:17
Speaker
We have three episodes coming down the pike on this subject. Today is episode one. um In a few weeks, we will have an episode with the CEO of the ICDL, Dr. Gunzel. ICDL is the home of DIR floor time, and they also house all of Dr. Greenspan's amazing work. And we will also be talking to the clinical director of the Rebecca School in and NYC, where they use DIR floor time as their primary therapy modality within a school setting.
00:03:45
Speaker
and Both of those are wonderful conversations, but today we really want to focus with Dr. Azaparday on what floor time looks like in its practical applications. So what are the interactions like between parent and child and child and clinician, and what are some of those grounding principles that really guide this particular approach?
00:04:05
Speaker
As always, be sure to check out the show notes at the end of the episode. I will make sure to link information about DIR floor time, where you can get trainings, where you can potentially get access to therapy. You can learn more about the ICDL and of course the research and evidence that supports this practice, as well as anything else that we discussed in the episode. So really excited to jump into this. Let's get going.
Expert Insights on Mental Health and Disabilities
00:04:28
Speaker
Welcome to The Diverged Podcast. Today we have Dr. Deidre Azaparday, who is a very good friend of mine. She's been an OT for 34 years and currently runs something called the Mindful School OT. I'm going to let her introduce herself and we will jump in. Hi, Deidre. Hi. Hi, Christy. As Christy just said, I've been an OT for a very long, long time.
00:04:50
Speaker
ah and a At some point, about 10, 12 years in, I went back because I was contemplating getting a school psychology ah degree because I really loved the mental health aspects of disability. That really interested me, um how kids felt about themselves.
00:05:09
Speaker
with all of this happening. ah And when I was finishing the degree, I kind of finished the master's. I realized that that it was a lot about paperwork, ah being a school psychologist, a lot about um testing and paperwork, and not so much about supporting children's mental health as much as I wanted it to be. And this was coming from school psychologists. And they said to me, Deirdre, you don't like paperwork. Why are you doing this?
00:05:35
Speaker
um Eventually, ah but it did actually inform my practice and my work in a big way. ah So I'm really grateful that I did it. Eventually I went back and got my doctorate in OT.
00:05:50
Speaker
And my subject was on using exercise and cognitive behavioral ah techniques to help ah children ah with anxiety in autism. Because what I was noticing, and this has kind of like been a through line for me, is that so many children over time, anxiety became really the most impactful part of like their sort of profile. that kind of we and and What bothered me is like we we know that this can can happen and we know that this does happen, and we're not thinking about it when children are very young. and so From my own experience, movement is so helpful
00:06:33
Speaker
with anxiety and helps me just in a general health general sense um for my mental well-being. And I'm like, why are we not using this as a tool? We're like not even talking about it. um i still People still are not talking about it, but no i just yeah I just think, um so I just constantly talk about just sort of you know helping autistic kids to really find joyful movement that they can use for their whole lives to help with you know this anxiety that can be a real monkey on their back.
00:07:05
Speaker
Yeah, no. And i I mean, I think you know our story, the more you get my son moving, the um the more you see skills, among other things. um And he really, really likes to be out and about. So we've, ah we've connected on that in a couple of different ways. um In terms of, you know, main mission and philosophy, I like asking this question, if you could wave a magic wand and change anything right now, um as it relates to neurodivergence, how we see it, how we talk about it, ah how we treat it, what would, what would it be?
Challenges in Intensive Therapy for Autistic Children
00:07:36
Speaker
You know, i I love that question, and there's so many things. um I think in terms of specifically for autism, ah what breaks my heart is that um when parents often get the diagnosis, especially, you know, parents of very young children, you know, 18 months, two years old, and um the less the the sort of message that's sent to them immediately is that children need these exorbitant amount of therapy, you know, 20 to 40 hours a week and get going and you better hurry up. And if you don't get going and hurry up, then, you know, basically your life is over and the child's life is, you know, they're never gonna have, they're never gonna have a chance unless you do this. And I just think that that message often then makes parents just, ah you know, give the kid over to this full-time job of therapy, which,
00:08:29
Speaker
You know, and a two-year-olds shouldn't have a full-time job, but a lot of two-year-old children, autistic children, have a full-time job of therapy. And I'll put that in quotes, quotes therapy. And I think it really can impact the parent-child relationship, right? Because the parent has sort of given over their child to this, to this, oh, you know,
00:08:53
Speaker
these these people who allegedly know their child you know better than they do. um So I think that that is really a tragedy um in that you know ah parents I think sometimes can you know think that they i've they've say this, you know that like everybody else knows my kid better than I do and that they stop really listening to their own heart and you know their own gut because they're they're kind of feared into this idea that you know unless the child gets this insane amount of intensive therapy,
00:09:30
Speaker
um They won't be whatever typical or they won't have a life. where i you know I don't know what the exact words that the doctors use, but I do think that that if if i could that really is um troubling. and I think a lot of times it gets sold as it's what's standing between them and skills.
00:09:49
Speaker
um I had someone say it's me recently. that They were essentially like, you don't understand, like, this is the difference between them being able to live independently or not.
Building Safety and Encouraging Risk-Taking through Interests
00:10:01
Speaker
And it was a, she owns a clinic ah and I just, you know, I mean, I was, I didn't get into it. Um, but there's so many skills in the real world. If you know sort of how to engage your child and interact and even just follow their lead, um, which is what I loved about DIR. So.
00:10:20
Speaker
And one of the things that you introduced me to a long time ago. um and So do we want to jump into kind of what DIR is um and how it aligns with this idea of relationship? And then also, we've talked a lot about the strength-based approaches um when it comes to our kids.
00:10:37
Speaker
Sure. So DIR, Developmental Individual Differences, Relationship-Based Approach, um probably not the easiest name of a therapy. that's Not at all. doesn It doesn't roll off the tongue. I also never remember what it stands for.
00:10:53
Speaker
Exactly. I know, I know. ah So I started just to kind of back up to say that I started in the DIR approach a very, very long time ago. I went to ah Stanley Greenspan's conference probably 25 years ago in ah Washington, D.C. and um was really blown away by it because I was you know in the autism space already in schools and I was like, this just doesn't feel right. I don't really like what I'm doing. I wasn't doing like a very strict behavioral approach. I'm a bit of a pushover, so I really couldn't do that. But the that sort of the pressure to do that was there. And I just like, this is like this doesn't feel good.
00:11:33
Speaker
Um, so I went to this, um, you know this this uh the conference and he is like, you know He was so brilliant. Um, and not just him just the people that around him, you know, so it was serena wieder wider reader I might be saying that incorrectly um and monica osgood was there who I ended up meeting and um, I had I had a ah ah student I was working with and he um ended up going to, so Greenspan used to come up to New Jersey once a month, once every three months, something like that. And people used to go see him. And um so I had this one client who used to go there and just, I learned so much from what what they did was the parent would go into the, is it was very different than going to a regular doctor. You went in, you met him and he audio taped it. And so you were sent home with his audio tape of everything that happened.
00:12:28
Speaker
So just, you know, um he he's like now looking from a neurodiversity affirming lens. Some of the things that he said and did probably wouldn't, you know, pass muster, but yeah we have to look at it from back from 25 years ago. um But yeah, so I started there and just this idea that relationship should drive or a therapeutic approach is something that OTs learn in school.
00:12:57
Speaker
that is such an essential part of our practice, that people, I think, may be like, ah oh yeah yeah, sure, I get that, of course. But they're they don't really realize the power of it, ah and especially in autism. right now i think I think that there's this you know unfortunate you know myth out there that autistic children don't need relationships or they don't want relationships, those
Respecting Autistic Children's Relationship Desires
00:13:29
Speaker
kind of things. I agree. Yeah, yeah and it's such a it's it's such a troubling myth. um that but you know So this idea that relationship drives the therapeut their therapy and what I love about DIR2 is this idea that we respect the child's choices.
00:13:49
Speaker
like we just in general respect them. It's not It's not this hierarchical place where I know better right and you and I will tell you what to do and I'll let you have what you want if you do what I want first only, right? That that kind of I'm above and you below. And I just think the DIR approach is like a with approach. Like we're in this together. yeah We're in this together. And so I just love that sort of space between people
00:14:22
Speaker
right? That space between, that's like a magical place. And that's where the, that's, that's DIR is that space between us. Um, so I just love that aspect of it. So cool. And it's interesting cause we've had, I've done a couple of podcast recordings lately. Um, when I was telling you about with someone who works with the PDA association of North America and has his own homeschool program. Um, and then the founder of the flex school. And the thing that always comes up is the relationship piece. Um,
00:14:52
Speaker
And at some point, Jackie had said a long time ago, I heard through the grapevine, you know, that the especially two E kids, like they don't see hierarchy. So by the time they get them, they've been forced to exist in systems that make them acknowledge it. And it creates such trust issues across the board. Yeah. Well, I mean, I just.
00:15:12
Speaker
I mean, there's just something philosophical about, you know, remembering that everyone has sort of the right to be themselves. And that's sort of a divine right ah to be yourself. device Yeah. so Yeah. So it's like, you know, and that's the psychological thing that I, you know, this message that people are sent, really all of us are sent that, um you know, that we need fixing and we're not,
00:15:42
Speaker
you know, good enough as we are. And, you know, I think that's just such a societal thing, yeah especially as women, oh especially like especially as women. And I think because women are the people that run these fields, um it can be dangerous, right? Because we're always trying to fix ourselves. So taking on a kid as a fix me project or fix them project is I don't know. It's like, we're used to that kind of idea. um And then so like, I think when you start to realize like, maybe you don't need to fix yourself so much, then you don't really want to fix other people either. That's oh, that's that could go for that's a whole podcast in and of itself.
00:16:20
Speaker
yeah Unrelated to autism. ah Yeah. it's you know It's fascinating. Sometimes like i had this I had this experience um recently with a little guy who, you know i just always think I always think that autistic children, especially autistic children, I think like all kids with their own divergence, and really all children, but I think especially autistic children, right? like They're not, they especially when they start out in the world, they're not spending all of their time looking to make sure that they're pleasing everybody, right?
Authenticity and Interaction in Child Development
00:16:52
Speaker
That's not part of like, you know, who they are.
00:16:56
Speaker
many times as they develop, that does become who they are. And then they become confused by all of that. But in the beginning, especially, you know, they're just not like that. And because the rest of us are spending so much time doing that, like, you know, we're morphing ourselves into a million pieces, um where these kids are just who they are. And then it's like, yeah, and then just, I don't know, like, doesn't that hold up a mirror to all of us, you know, like, you know, so it's just really interesting it's kind of,
00:17:24
Speaker
Definitely. Autistic children specifically have been my biggest teacher. Absolutely. Oh, totally. Yeah, dick absolutely. Agreed. The time's over. And I wanted to go back to the relationship piece too for a second, um just because Another thing that I find very interesting is I've had the pleasure of talking to parents lately who have, you know, 30 year olds with autism and they've done all the things. They even approached it with philosophies that I'm not like the biggest fan of, but the one thing that they do say looking back is they're like all the credentials in the world, all the data, all the research.
00:17:59
Speaker
is not as important as that kid that person working one-to-one with your kid. like That is what makes the biggest difference. and it's true It seems to be true across all of the philosophies, but relationships seem so discounted when it comes to our kids because people have convinced us they don't understand them, um which is so sad to me.
00:18:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah ah it is so sad and it's 100% true. like You can you know watch, like i there's a particular aid, I just saw the other day, this this interaction she has with this kid is just so beautiful. And it's like, whatever you know philosophy she's using, maybe like I don't necessarily agree with it, but like the actual interaction that she has with this kid is just like,
00:18:46
Speaker
Aw, she looks at him like, she's so happy when this kid does anything. She's so thrilled to be around him. So I said something to her. I was like, ah you know I know you love all the kids, but you know this one particular kid, I said, I see. You light like a Christmas tree. And she goes, oh, I do. I feel it. So you can feel it. um You can feel certain. and And I think every kid, so one thing I teach,
00:19:12
Speaker
And I haven't taught this in a while, but you're reminding me of it. um i um you know if i teach i mentor I mentor a lot of therapists and teachers and students, and I've done a lot of professional development, right? That's like a know a love of mine. And one thing I teach, um and it is controversial, is that we are not allowed to not like any kid on our caseload. I love that.
00:19:38
Speaker
literally. And people will say, but it's just natural. I'm like, but let's go. Let's think about it. um You know, whatever kid you really are having, who's triggering you, right? Or you don't want to be around that kid. ah Usually that same kid is a kid is triggering others. There's certain things that are, you know, and if you allow yourself to go that place, if you allow yourself to be in a place like I don't want to go, I don't want to see this kid, like,
00:20:08
Speaker
you know this This is so hard every time we come here. um There is no way for that kid not to feel that. They will. right They will feel it. They will feel it. And I really believe that kids, especially kids who don't speak, feel it more. Absolutely. ah we Feel it more. Because their nervous systems are so vulnerable and they're just always looking for safety. And if you are not in love with them, they know it.
00:20:37
Speaker
they know it and then they don't feel safe with you. And I, ah you know, it was like a painful experience with one student years ago that made me realize I was like, Oh, this is not okay. Like the fact that I'm having a hard time with this kid. And like, when I switched that, like all of a sudden they weren't, you know, giving me a hard time.
00:20:58
Speaker
Yeah, so so yeah, yeah, no, so it's real and it's and that's part of the relationship too. It's also about you in the relationship. It's not about like, I need to be like, you know, fostering this relationship for them. It's for me too. And so both of us are in it. You know, um it's ah so important. So if I see, you know, I've seen sometimes It's such an insidious thing, but sometimes you just see like certain kids elicit certain things in people, and it kind of has a snowball. and yeah so i won't If I feel this angst in my body around the kid, I really work on it. i think you yeah I think you have to, and it's interesting, this might be way too philosophical, um but if you really take a step back, whatever's triggering you is probably where your dormant ableism lies.
00:21:52
Speaker
yeah I see that for myself as a parent. oh less Interestingly enough with my very neurodivergent child and my daughter, but it's a different conversation um and it's during the parenting world. like If it's triggering you, there's something that you've buried. So pull it up, get it out and deal with it and we can all move on in a better, one yeah healthier way.
00:22:17
Speaker
And it's also hard and it's also human. It's also hard and it's also human, but that's what's so great about um being in this field. And that's, and we'll talk maybe about the mindfulness piece, but when you start to pay attention to your own self and pay attention to your own body and your own breath and your own presence, that's when you start to really notice all of these things where I think sometimes what can happen is you know If a kid's having difficulty, you know we we never hold the mirror up to ourselves. We just decide it's their problem that they need we need to do whatever to fix instead of holding the mirror up to ourselves. and that's you know and that that If you start to take some time to know yourself better,
00:23:08
Speaker
right? um Then you will feel it. I'm going to keep saying feel it. Yeah, no, it's totally. really Yeah. And I really feel like that's important for parents too. Like, why you know, I think when, when parents are doing, you know, doing well in the thing is when they start to like, like, I had an experience where we were watching a horrific thing where a child was being force fed. Oh, yeah.
00:23:33
Speaker
And the parent had a reaction to this, which was very normal, you know, wanted to hug the child. And the person that was doing it, you know, told the parent, none of that, none of that. And and it was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, you have to trust that instinct in you that knows that this is not okay. You do. Yeah, you have to trust that. um But a bunch of professionals will tell you, you know, whatever. um But You know, and I think, and I think when people are growing more, they're like, Oh, I have to trust my own instincts. Like I'm the parent, trust my instincts and not listen to me either to listen. Like I'm not saying just listen, don't listen to me either.
Perceptions of Development and Therapist Influence
00:24:11
Speaker
Well, and I think one of the things that happens, and I've seen this a lot, especially considering the journey we're on at the moment is eat it's almost like every person your child interacts with to an extent becomes this like,
00:24:25
Speaker
barometer of how they're going to do in the next phase, whether it's from preschool to school or school to college or school to a job. And there's so much stuff in between that really doesn't have as much of an impact on the quality of their life when they get where they're going, as we think it does. um And I have to ask myself that question all the time. like At age 18, is this skill necessary? Is this like therapy necessary?
00:24:53
Speaker
and if it is, like is it the right time to be working on it? And that like sort of like decision tree around things has really helped when your gut instincts aren't always clear. Yeah. Yeah. I know. It's also hard. right It's also hard to kind of figure out. um And there's so many opinions. And there's you know so many people willing to take your money.
00:25:17
Speaker
Well, and all with the best intentions. I you know ah you percent yeah all with this intention yeah i have kid who ah it's is a vibrator to his core. And there are some people he's just never, he just doesn't jive with. And I never think, for the most part, I never think it's the other person. I'm just like, you're not signaling enough safety at the moment, so we're going to have to figure something else out. Yeah. yeah Well, this idea of safety. like You know, just thinking about that from a kid's point of view, especially a kid who has very strong interests. um You know, when somebody comes in and says, you know, your interests are really cool. yeah I love it. And oh my gosh, tell me more. Of course a kid can then
00:25:58
Speaker
feel enough safety in that relationship where they can start to take risks. Like that's the whole idea. Like we don't want kids, you know, so I think sometimes people think like DIR is following a kid around and and just doing what they do, right? Right. You know, follow their lead, do what they do, that kind of stuff. And yes, there is that. But it's because the relationship, right, becomes more solid and the kid feels safer, then you can introduce new things and we can go different places. But you know, we only take risks, right? When we feel safe, if we don't feel safe, we're going to keep doubling down on just staying the same, right? And doing the same things and doing it over and over again. And that becomes, you know, everybody's thinks they're stimming or whatever it is. But it's like, no, this is like doesn't feel safe. And so that idea of being a safe person. And sometimes I'm not a safe person. And I know that and I have moments. Yeah, no, totally agree.
00:26:55
Speaker
um And on that note, just something fun that came up recently, and it comes up in a lot of my DIR conversations, is there's always a temptation, especially with non-speaking kids, um to think that certain behaviors are things that they aren't or that they aren't developmentally appropriate. um And one of the things I loved about DIR and the first time you came over an evaluated border, we'll just say it out loud, was the first thing that came up was the list of like, oh, that's typical kid stuff. Like that's what six year olds do. And that's reframed a lot of my thinking, but I still find myself in situations. Um, there was a situation recently where a friend of mine was like, are you watching my son?
00:27:41
Speaker
And I was like, yeah, yeah. She goes, see how he's like spinning his arm around. He thinks it makes him run faster. And my jaw literally like dropped to the floor. I'm like, Porter does that all the time. And I thought it was a stim, but he is absolutely has a car in his hand and he's racing and he thinks it makes him fast. Hilarious. So it's on the power of just kind of like taking a breath. And I think that's a big piece of creating safe spaces is not thinking that everything is a diagnosis.
00:28:11
Speaker
um And DIR taught me that. Yeah. And then like philosophically coming back to just the idea that, and if it were, like, yeah you know, I think this idea like, you know, this is bad, and this is good, like diversity bad, you know, yeah, typicality good.
Validity of Neurotypical Norms and AAC in Autism
00:28:32
Speaker
Yeah, right. um And even, you know, if I was going to the whole other magic wand thing is,
00:28:39
Speaker
you know, if I was going to get rid of something, it's, I think the way that we test, you know, kids, but the way that we test kids is, you know, a lot of tests are based on neurotypical norms, right? And they're heavily um biased against children who don't have good communication.
00:29:02
Speaker
Right? Or I should say good. Good's not the right word. Don't have the communication that we're we typically have. Yes. Yeah, that we have. So because of that, I feel like the scores are meaningless. Totally. The scores are meaningless, but they carry a lot of weight. And they carry a lot of weight in in in people's perceptions.
00:29:25
Speaker
Um of people and it's again, you know, so if I was going to do another magic wand, I mean I think everybody Everybody should see um, this is not about me by jordan zimmerman that movie. Um I think everybody also should if you work in the autism space you should ah Spend some time listening to autistic voices Yes You have to spend some time sometime listening to autistic voices. ah You have to go to a conference where an autistic person is speaking, right? you know And speaking maybe in a different way. But yeah but I think just letting us know their their experience, I think that there's, I mean, it's so powerful.
00:30:10
Speaker
i I agree and I think one of the things that's interesting right now about autistic voices is for parents and I get this, it's ah really hard because the internet is so loud. yeah A lot of times the autistic voices that make their way to you are lower support needs individuals who are maybe diagnosed later in life and not to say that anything isn't is' it valid.
00:30:36
Speaker
Um, but I saw Jordan speak recently and it blew my mind. I didn't realize I had never seen a person, a non-speaking person could one talk complete, like give a speech within AC, um, let alone stand there and converse with me. And that was one of those experiences where it was like, okay, this isn't just like a thing that you wait until he picks up on. This is like a very valid tool, um, that can be really useful in life. And it was, it was very powerful to see her speak as well.
00:31:06
Speaker
ah No, I think you're 100% right. There are too many voices in the autism space of these people diagnosed later that are like speaking for people who don't speak. like we I think like this idea that they can all speak for Jordan Zimmerman is a little unfair um because they didn't experience the level of ableism someone like her experienced or just the day-to-day experiences of someone like her, right? They didn't experience that. They had a different experience. i'm not And that's not to invalidate their experience. Not at all. It's definitely a very different experience. So I do think, and I do see parents, you know and like
00:31:45
Speaker
To be fair, ah you have a child who does things like bangs their head on a wall or smears feces. Like that needs to be fixed. yeah so right among others those are Those are things that do need really intensive therapies. And I think there's different, like we don't know if,
00:32:09
Speaker
the cause effect, ah you know, chicken egg, why these things are happening. And we can have a lot of disagreement about how, why that is. But to kind of say, you know, this is just a way of expressing ourselves, you know what I mean? Like those families actually need real help.
00:32:25
Speaker
and right And, you know, so I think that it's not, it's disingenuous to pretend that that doesn't severely impact a family. Right. Yeah. And just wanted to say that because I go back and forth with friends about autistic voices. um But the space is really cluttered if they're coming to you versus you going and looking for people who have had something similar to your kids'
Seeking Similar Experiences and Effective Teaching Methods
00:32:47
Speaker
experience.
00:32:47
Speaker
Those are two one different sets of voices. A hundred percent. I do think, I do think, yeah, I think that's, ah that's really a valid point. That's great, Kristy, that you brought that up. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I love it. And I, the one thing I want to touch on too, um, like relationship based, how do these therapies benefit parents and educators, which we talked about a little bit, but like this idea that you can leverage your kid's strengths, you can be a little bit more patient. You don't have to fix everything right now.
00:33:16
Speaker
Like how do those things benefit parents and and even educators? um So you mean like using a strength-based approach? Using a strength-based or relationship-based approach like D.A.R. either.
00:33:30
Speaker
um ah So just thinking about strength-based, for sure, if we use children's interest as a way to weave that into curriculum, you know children are just going to be more and more invested. Because you know it doesn't matter how many carrots you hold out for a kid, which is kind of the paradigm in schools yeah in general. not just it's all It's all over.
00:33:53
Speaker
It's all over. It's not just for justice for not just for autism, this idea that we hold out a carrot. It really doesn't help kids to want to do things more than... you know a little bit in the moment, maybe sometimes, but for the most part, kids do best when they're invested in it for, because it's interesting to them. So using just things that are interesting to the kid, but just using their strengths in general, I mean, all of us do want to build our lives on our strengths. And, you know, um for so many autistic kids, right? The visual sense is usually, usually, uh,
00:34:32
Speaker
easier place it's in like an easier ah outlet for them or like I should say like an ah an easier sense for them to kind of um you know, bring support there to help them with the language stuff. So I just think that that just makes sense that when we see a child having difficulty following directions that we, instead of assuming that they don't understand, assume that we haven't provided the correct support that needs in their individual differences, you know, whether that is, you know, a sensory support um or, um,
00:35:07
Speaker
you know, some type of language support. But, you know, I think when we really look at kids very individually. Yes. Right. If we really look at kids individually, yeah sometimes the visual isn't going to be the right the right place. Usually, usually, that's like a usual. um Usually, a universal support for most kids is providing multi sensory ways to learn.
00:35:30
Speaker
um But for many kids and like thinking about Porter, yeah um thinking about Porter, like just this idea of getting kids outside, yeah getting kids outside and and kind of getting them away from the noise. um I think the really, really noisy over stimulating aspect of school is really hard for many kids. yeah And so I just love the idea of getting kids to get away from all of that.
00:36:02
Speaker
um and see what happens when all of that outside of them is gone. you know Then you get to see a whole lot of different things really. You know and you think about, you know we come from nature, we are meant to be in nature, you know what I mean? So yeah um so I just think that, right? like you met you yourre you're you When you're doing something like, when you're really thinking about kids ah individual differences and looking at their strengths,
00:36:30
Speaker
you know you looked at Porter and you were like, i when I take him out of the house, I see a different kid, right? you said when i So this is what you did. You said, when I take him out of the house and I bring him to Starbucks, I remember you used to tell me. oh just he was cool I would take him out, I'd take him to Starbucks, then he would talk. ye right And so you realize you needed to get your kid out and moving, get him out of the traditional routine of you know, going to school, then going to therapies and coming home. You had to take him into like real life situations. So you took that and you said, okay, let me get him out of the house even more yep and we see what happens even more. And let me, let's see when he's, and I remember, right? He wasn't speaking, but you would take him on trips. Oh, all over the place. I love travel. Yeah.
00:37:20
Speaker
if you were looking at a traditional, even autism, right, in children's, where people think about how we deal, you know, how do we deal with autistic children? Make it the same. Same-ness is, everybody needs a lot of same-ness. Keep, you know, keep the routines, give them a visual schedule, right? That's what, right? they You know, um yeah don't change up their days too much. When there's too much change, it's too hard for them. But that wasn't true for your son. Not at all.
00:37:50
Speaker
Yeah. Not at all, right? you know So that's why that's what's so important about thinking about what are people's strengths. For Porter, for him to thrive, it can't be the same exact thing every day. Right.
00:38:03
Speaker
it It can't be. For him, that that's not that doesn't help him to change and thrive. He needs to be out and about in the world. um and to like And to layer onto that, what's really interesting that we figured out along the way is, so yes, he needs to be out and about. He needs novelty, but there's something really magical in things being real. He's just gotten to a point where he will pretend play with or he's always reenacted things he's seen on TV. But he's just gotten to a point where he will like mix toys and like pretend play with things. And even still, he prefers the real thing. He did it this morning, he wanted to fix something. So he went down to his dad's shop and got like the real tools.
00:38:45
Speaker
Um, there was just something there and it's like, okay, if it's the real world, it's motivating. Whereas if we're trying to pretend to get lunch or pretend to order XYZ or practice my name, he just doesn't care for lack of a better phrase. Yeah. Yeah. No, that, I mean, and that's awesome. And that's a great, like, so thinking about him, you know, so, you know, many times people use like pec symbols. Yes.
00:39:12
Speaker
not right yeah and yeah and a lot of kids A lot of kids, those symbols, people just assume that those symbols are meaningful. But for some kids, those symbols are not meaningful at all. For someone like Porter, he needs things that are real life. He needs probably just real pictures. Real pictures do well. Yeah, real pictures because a symbol to him might not mean anything. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Because said that's just not where he's at. He likes to be in the real world. And so that's you met him where he was. Right. You understood that it wasn't working, you know, the way that just traditional school did it. is Yeah.
00:39:49
Speaker
um Yeah. And you tried to do, and you did something different, you know what I mean? But I'm just saying like everybody, every kid, we we have to really like, and that's what's fascinating. and One of the my favorite things about work, about work is um evaluating kids. Oh, really? Because I just find it unbelievable after, I don't know, the thousands of kids I have met.
00:40:14
Speaker
At this point, I never, ever, ever meet the same kid twice. Not even a little bit. Like somebody will say, is that kid kind of like this? I'm like, well, not really. Remember they're like, you know what I mean? It's fascinating. And even in autism, you never meet the same kid twice. Which is really why. Yeah. I think about porterness friends and none of them are like, there's vast differences between them. Other than when they all get together, there's this, we're all in this together mentality.
00:40:41
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm just saying besides that, every kid has such different needs.
Difficulties in Individual-Focused Approaches in Schools
00:40:47
Speaker
yeah you know So like I think cookie cutter approaches in general are are problematic. Yeah. um Not and the easiest thing to solve in a school setting, though. I always want to acknowledge.
00:41:00
Speaker
No. It's really not. And i and and and you know ah to be super fair, when you put kids in a group, and one thing that I did as a therapist, and not not necessarily a lot of OTs and speech therapists do this, or eat PTs, I run whole class groups.
00:41:17
Speaker
on purpose yeah for myself because I didn't want to give teachers um advice where I didn't like cuts my na understand what it was like. And let me tell you, it is really challenging.
00:41:33
Speaker
to run a class group where one or two kids are not being compliant. So we have like, you know, we've made the word compliant to be something negative, you know, in the DIR world or just in the sort of autism, Instagram world, you know, the world the word compliant is like, is like, you know, whatever, everyone, you know, hates that word, but actually try to run a class group with a few kids who aren't being compliant. It's hard.
00:42:03
Speaker
It's hard. It's really hard. ah you know So I do think that there's probably some room to help kids understand that um having to kind of go along with what's happening might have to happen right now for different reasons. yeah You know, so it's not, there's there is ah ah something in between that makes sense yeah um because yeah, because it's really, it's tough. It's tough. It unglues you. um It can unglue other kids. It can be really, really challenging.
00:42:38
Speaker
Yeah, no and we even see that in a place like what we have been doing with Diverge. We even see that there are some kids who you might be meeting every kid's need, and then there's one kid who everybody being happy throws him off because it's like too it's too loud and too much. so It's totally fair.
00:43:00
Speaker
This is like, nobody will be bored trying to do this work. That's for sure. Can't be bored.
00:43:07
Speaker
I'm tired, not bored. Yeah. So, and one of the things I kind of want to touch on again around the like relationship-based and developmentally-based therapies, if you're not going for, let's say targeted skills, essentially from a developmental perspective, like how does DER set kids up?
00:43:26
Speaker
for success, like in terms of how do you know when to move on to the next stage? Like if you're not going for individual targeted skills, like what are you looking for? And what's the benefit of that against teaching them to send a chair or write XYZ or whatever. Yeah.
00:43:40
Speaker
No, and listen, at the end of the day, I think a lot of people, these things happen concurrently. So I don't think purely we're going to just work on, you know, ah from, you know, the FEDC, FEDCs, f fe dcs which I'll explain what those are. now um ah So functional emotional developmental capacities, that's the sort of um you know, developmental framework that DIR uses. um And they are in some ways sort of hierarchical, but not because we don't complete one to go to the other. We kind of move in and out of all of them, you know, we can be moving in and out of them all at different times. But
00:44:27
Speaker
sometimes if we are are not solid in in one of the lower levels, you know we could make the mistake to push too hard into the higher levels. So I'll just give some examples. So FEDC1 is really sort of a tension, right? Like are we attending to what's happening or we're attending to the caregiver? we In this place where we're attending to the world, right? So it's kind of like that basic capacity. Now,
00:44:55
Speaker
That is a problem for all of us, right? You know, this idea that we've tackled attention and we got it. You know what I mean? That's kind of silly, right? So we for sure don't have that. But if we don't have the ability to just attend and share attention, right, that is going to make everything else harder. Right.
00:45:18
Speaker
Right? so So we start, we definitely start there and we do that through relationship.
Engagement, Communication, and Misconceptions in DIR
00:45:23
Speaker
Like if I am attending to what you're attending to and I think that that's really cool. And then the child is like, looks up at you a little bit, right? And then you're like, oh, you know, we have something here. yes Just this sort of basic beginning relationship, like we're all in this together, sort of is like the beginning, right? yeah And then the second is sort of like this engagement. Like, are we really, can are we holding each other's space a little bit more? Are they kind of with you? And it doesn't have to be necessarily eye contact, but it just might be that,
00:45:55
Speaker
we notice that the person can stay the child can stay with something a little bit longer and we're not staying there together. you know I think when kids start sometimes when they're you know um you know first diagnosed, we just see this sort of kid looks very random, they're grabbing everything, they're not sticking with anything, they're not bringing it to you, there's no whatever. you know yeah It's this idea to be sort of engaged in the world and engaged with you. And that's where this sort of relationship really happens a lot, right? That's really fall in love with each other. Right? Yeah, you know, it's such an important part of a mother and a child.
00:46:35
Speaker
and and And this is what the sad part is when a kid gets, this is around the time, right? Those first two capacities when kids get of you know the diagnosis. Because they're not doing those first two things, right? The parent isn't seeing eye contact, they're not, the child isn't, you know, they're not able to feed the child, they're not feeling like connected. They're just basic connection. And then, you know, we put them into all of these therapies. Right.
00:47:05
Speaker
You know what I mean? And then like we lose that time where we could be doing this connection stuff, right? Yeah. And a lot of this is about the caregiver too, right? So in these capacities, it's also about the caregiver being engaged and attentive. Yes. Right. And then, so I think, you know, and then it's like, then we go to FEDC3, which is just communication and communication can mean,
00:47:31
Speaker
on anything really where we're doing a give and a take and it doesn't have to be verbal. It can be handing something to someone, bringing ah a parent, a child bringing a parent over to something, yeah you know, ah when you're playing and you're doing, you know, and this is all through play, if you're playing and the child Is I don't know patting a doll and then hands you the doll to pat the doll that's communication and you to You know, um, so so communication is so vital Um, and so we accept all forms of communication and this is where there's a lot of breakdown. Yeah um in schools and compliance based approaches because that you know, not all communication is accepted right as communication and
00:48:20
Speaker
often what people do is like they stop a kid in the middle of something and they're like, I don't know, use your words. Use your words. all You know what I mean? So you break the flow. A lot of DIR is about the flow between people, right? and when we're in a place of flow, you don't want to break the flow by then demanding something from a child. right You would know all about that would d with that with ah the PDA stuff, right right? So when we stop and we're like, nope, that's not the right way, you did it the wrong way, then you break the flow of communication. So i think um I think the stuff that's coming out now, especially from the AAC world,
00:49:04
Speaker
Um, and the total communication world, which is very controversial too, right? So a lot of, a lot of speech therapists on our different camps about this as well. Um, I think that also is, I think like DIR has been saying that for years, so yeah many, many years, right? To make sure that we understand that communication can come in many different forms.
00:49:28
Speaker
and to keep looking for it, to keep looking for it and looking for it and looking for it. And that's like, i I spent a lot of time when I mentor, like I have OT students, I'm always like, no, no, no, did you see that? That was communication. yes Did you see when he went like this and he put his shoulder on you? He's communicating to you. you know so i think And I think there are a bit, and teachers, like I think when we make it that speech therapists are the only people who can talk about communication. It's like ridiculous. Yeah, no. and But I would venture to say that the speech therapists who are the best at connecting would would agree. A million percent, a million percent. But I just see that, like, you know, people say, well, let's make sure that the speech that I'm like, no, no, we all have to be doing like this communications happening all the time. Right. And we all have the same page with the, like, how we're looking at it. And I think what's always been intriguing to me about DIR and the philosophy that it's built on is there seems to be a misunderstanding that if you're not targeting skills directly, you're not working on things. But the way DIR is set up, it's actually, you're working on the most important things.
00:50:42
Speaker
but you're doing it in a way that is natural to the kid, whether they're typical or neurodiverse. So you're giving them the benefit of that, that childhood experience that they wouldn't get in other settings. And maybe it's a little bit more intensive or you have to work a little bit harder to get where you're going. Um, but it's still that base of like, this is all through play. This is all guided, um, in a way that feels natural for all of us.
00:51:09
Speaker
It's 100%. Yeah. And I think there's such a, you know, in the DIR to the FEDC is we're always looking at, you know, the individual differences of the child, we're always looking at sensory sensitivities or yeah that there the motor planning, we're always looking at like, what could be impeding this back and flow back and forth flow. yeah So we we're looking, ah we're always looking for this flow. And Where do we feel the disconnect sometimes? you know where Where does the kid, oh, that was too much? yeah you know Sometimes kids, you can see it. That was too much. You went too fast. you went you know We always have to play. with and it's So all this stuff is very subtle and actually really challenging as much as people think, oh, that seems like nothing. It's actually like a lot. We have to constantly be monitoring ourself during it. You have to be almost as in tune as the kid is.
00:52:03
Speaker
Yes. and I agree with you that non-speaking kids are almost more in tune than the rest of us. Exactly. yeah so like and On the flip side of it, if you get too stuck in your head about like, is this FEDC 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, you can also then lose the connection. Right.
00:52:22
Speaker
and right And I think that's the difference too between something that's like clinical and then taking the key principles of it and just sort of applying it to life ah or in a very simplistic way. One of the first things that happened when we you know pulled Porter home to homeschool and sort of attached ourselves to this idea of, okay, well not just acknowledge all communication, but participate in your communication.
00:52:47
Speaker
was suddenly there was eye contact more eye contact. All the things that like people are always looking for just sort of showed up. And it wasn't that we were ever telling him he couldn't do anything or communicate a certain way or forcing communication. It was just no one had ever presented the idea of like, okay, communicate exactly the way he's doing it. If he's stimming like and you're in the middle of a floor time session, do it with him. ands And I've seen it work with plenty of other kids where the second you acknowledge whatever's happening in their world, all of a sudden they are reciprocating right back. And kids, people don't think have the capacity to do that, which I think is what's even more mind blowing.
00:53:28
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, always. Yeah, every time. I mean, you know you just see. and And what we also look for, which is so different, is we we look for like joy.
Indicators of Effective Therapy and Child Development Pace
00:53:42
Speaker
like Is there some joy happening in this moment, in this space with us? And if a kid, you know if you go to a school or or a facility, or you know I've been to like private schools, and you just are here and crying all the time. I know.
00:53:57
Speaker
you know And if that's like the basis, there's just like all of this angst and crying and force and stuff like that. There's gotta be something wrong with that, right? yeah Children are um you know essentially joyful, and that's just their nature. And so if there isn't that, why? right you know If there isn't that, why? So then the next FEDC that I think is really important. is So it's those first four, I think, that are so important. And I think we keep going back to those four.
00:54:27
Speaker
always, it takes a while for many kids to really get through those. You don't get through, and that's why I keep getting back to them, um is that FEDC4, where you're having longer communication flows, and you're putting problem solving. Yes. so Problem solving is really fun, and you can do that in any i mean you can do all four and anything, but it's you know that's daily life just presents us with many problems.
00:54:56
Speaker
you know, and to help kids to understand that they can solve problems too, and that we can support them and we can do it together. I think it's just great because you can do that in so many ways. So many, so so many. Yeah. And I think like you just can really, especially like a kid like Porter, right? That but he's, he loved that always. Yes. He's always been a problem solver. Yeah. Usually on his own, but, but that's what's nice is you can be part of it. Yeah, exactly. Like, Oh man.
00:55:25
Speaker
um and i you know i I've done a lot of work around that with families and it's just really fun. because it's like and I said, you could do anything with this. We're going out of the house and you only have one shoe and it's like, what are we going to do? yes What are we going to do? We only have one shoe, you know? And let the kid come up with them some idea. What we're going to do is the solution. And they what I love about the problem solving piece is one, again, another skill that's great for typical and neurodivergent kids, but it also forces you as a parent to sort of have to back off and talk through things when everything's something to be solved versus freaking out about, oh my God, we're late. I can't find the shoe. whatever it is, it forces you to have to like really stop for a second and slow things down, um which if you can do it in play, when the stakes are higher, it's a little easier. um You're not trying to problem solve in the middle of a meltdown, which would work anyway. You know what I love, Christy, you just said, stopping to slow things down. Yes. I mean, honestly, we could just drop the mic right there.
00:56:35
Speaker
Because in general, if we just stopped and slowed things down a little bit um with kids with neurodivergence, well, with kids, kids but yeah and especially neurodivergent kids, you know what do we know? The studies have proven that ah when teachers speak right and they expect a response, that they usually give kids 1.5 seconds to respond. Oh, man.
00:57:03
Speaker
If the child doesn't respond in 1.5 seconds, they they ask again, right? And so especially for neurodivergent kids, the processing takes longer. yep But we're all so uncomfortable with silence. That's so true. I never equated it to silence with that. So true. We're uncomfortable.
00:57:24
Speaker
And that's ah that's an us problem. Absolutely. Well, and we're seeing that too over here, um, receptive languages improved a lot in the last little bit and I've realized how much we have to still wait. It's like, it's like, it's almost become like, I'm not even going to assume I know what you're going to do anymore. I'm going to wait and see. And most of the time the skill is there. It just needs more than a second and a half.
00:57:51
Speaker
ah Yeah, but when they did, so when they did studies about this, this is for typical kids, when they did studies and they really pushed the teacher to like, you know, add a minute or add 30 more seconds. I forget exactly the the the time. um The kids had better responses, longer responses. This is just for typical, you know. all it So yeah, just wait time. Just giving kids the time to wait. We just wait, we put something out there and we wait.
00:58:22
Speaker
is like, ah if just people did that, it would be dramatic, the progress people would make. Yeah. And there's always that fear. I think everybody's always, again, thinking about the future and we all do it. um But the most important thing to realize is if you're approaching things from this more developmental lens that gives them the capacity to develop over time. like If it's taking four seconds right now, it used to take a lot longer. In another couple of years, it's probably going to take a lot less. like It's just kind of giving your kid permission to develop and understand that there's growth, even if the world doesn't want you to think that. Which is what most autistic parents parents of autistic older kids say these days. There's like, no, there's so much growth between now and 18, 25, 30, whatever that is.
00:59:13
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I know. Yeah. I mean, well, I don't know because I don't have that experience, but um I can imagine. yeah So no, that's really cool. um Oh, let's talk about mindful school OT really quickly. or So I did um for ICDL because I know that you talked to Jeff. Not only for ICDL, there's two um places, organizations that kind of do DIR, it's Perfectum and ICDL. So actually, for both of them, I've done talks on the intersection of mindfulness and DIR. And in my mind, they're sort of inseparable. Absolutely. Yeah. So the idea that we
01:00:00
Speaker
work on presence as the backdrop of working with kids um is so important because we can get stuck in our minds and not be in our bodies.
Mindfulness and Positive Outcomes in Support Settings
01:00:11
Speaker
yeah Kids are so used to that. They're so used to that. but People are not really with them. I mean, think about the paradigm of you know the the the person, the professional with their paper and they're watching and they're writing.
01:00:28
Speaker
Right? That's not being with somebody and that's not being present, right? That's being in judgment of someone. And a lot of these kids experience a whole lot of that. ah So, you know, when I get in my own body, um I can feel into, because somebody will say to me, I'll give you a really quick example, sensory processing, sensory integration is really thick, a lot of depth to understand it. But a lot of it is a felt experience.
01:00:58
Speaker
So there's you can be ah shut down because you're overwhelmed with a sensory environment. So you become shut down, yeah right? So there's shut down, or there's the kid who isn't being stimulated enough. That kid can look the same. ah Yes. Right? That kid looks the same. So from outside point of view, that kid looks the same. So when you see a kid who is not attending and really looks whatever, you know, low energy. You can go in like gangbusters trying to get that kid to come up, right? That's what you're taught, right? yeah Oh, look, they're so low energy and, you know, get them up. Give them all the stimulation, get them up. Meanwhile, if they're shut down, it's the exact wrong approach. it's the It's the app opposite approach. When I got into my own body more, I can feel into that. Oh, that's so interesting.
01:01:56
Speaker
right I can feel it. So if I'm with a kid who is really shut down, I feel the energy of the anxiety in my body. Do you know what I mean? No, I know exactly what you mean. And then it's like, oh no, we have to back up, back up, back up. And mo the majority of um you know kids with autism, autistic kids, everybody wants to say something different.
01:02:24
Speaker
it's usually, you know, that anxiety the low energy is shut down because they're overwhelmed. Yeah. Yeah. So going in like, ah like, you know, everything big and bright and black that is not helpful for them. That is not helpful. So I, so that when I got into my own body, I understood sensory integration more from a felt experience. Right.
01:02:51
Speaker
So that's a big difference. yeah Instead of here, everything being cognitive, it's like feeling. And that's what I love to offer. you know And I'll just give you like, and we could go on for 10 hours about about mindfulness and and um autism, but I'll give you just one.
01:03:07
Speaker
quick example that I think is just powerful. ah there's there He's actually a behaviorist. And people who I knew who met him, they were like, he's like a ha-ha behaviorist. He's a He's an expert meditator. Oh, cool.
01:03:23
Speaker
Yeah. So like, you know, like really spent an tremendous amount of time, you know, in his own mindfulness practice and teaching meditation. And he's a professor and he he's done many studies. But one of the things that he did before he did the studies, and he's done a lot of studies on mindfulness and autism, but one of the things that he did that I thought was fascinating is he went across, I think it was Florida,
01:03:45
Speaker
And he went into institutions with adults, ah very significant support needs. And he actually taught the staff mindfulness techniques, some simple meditation techniques, some simple mindfulness techniques. And they did did studies and it reduced the amount of restraint significantly. That's interesting. And an entire other show.
01:04:12
Speaker
yes Yes, it is an entire other show, but I'm just saying just thinking about that. Yeah, just thinking about when we, so even if, and that's what the studies show, we don't have to do it, the kids don't have to do this. Mindfulness practices for the adults around kids is where a lot of the studies have shown that kids' behaviors change, kids' behaviors change when the adults around them practice mindfulness techniques. Oh, I love that so much.
01:04:40
Speaker
That's amazing. um I have to find that study for other reasons. um That's so good. Yes. So where can people find Mindful School OT? So that's the name of my my um my actual website, themindfulschoolot.com. Okay, we'll put it in show notes. Yeah, there you go. Do you have parent courses or is it mostly professional?
01:05:04
Speaker
You know, I don't have a parent course yet. I've definitely done talks and I could i could definitely be persuaded to do more. I like doing, I really want to get back into doing live things. um I love the energy of people. Yes. You know, so the online space is really nice, but you know, ah even for autism, i was I was like just coaching a parent just really quick. I was coaching a kid and coaching a family.
01:05:29
Speaker
and um I had the opportunity then to finally meet this kid and I was like, oh, again, feeling into the experience. Yeah. Watching him through a ski screen and being with him. Totally different things. Totally different. one Yes. Being with people is really nice. So I like to be with it with the with the parents. and I love that. um So true. All right. Well, thank you. This was amazing. We might have to part two at some point. on and ah But thank you so much. And then we'll put everybody like show notes ah in the show notes, your website and everything so people can find you. Awesome. Thanks. like Thanks everyone for joining us. I really hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I did. We might actually have to park to that um and have Dr. Asaparte on again.
01:06:15
Speaker
As a reminder, everything we discussed is linked in the show notes. um You can look into DIR through the links down there. You can look into the mindfulness research that Deidre was talking about and also get in touch with Deidre herself and her work at Mindful School OT. So please be sure to check that out. If you are interested in what is happening in Diverge because you are local to the, we'll say NJ New York area, please jump on www.divergeprograms dot.com and check us out.
01:06:44
Speaker
We are so excited that you're here and happy to have you as a listener. Please be sure to tune in next week where we will be speaking with Claudine Mossberg, the founder of the Outdoor Play Connection, a nature enrichment program located in Essex County, New Jersey.
01:06:59
Speaker
Um, it's a wonderful episode where we're going to talk about typical good things and neurotypical good things and how to build really inclusive environments just by being needs based all around. So excited