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Episode 18: Radical Behaviorism & Radical Accountability: A nuanced conversation about ABA, ethics and how we move forward. (Part 3)
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In this episode of the DIVERG. Podcast, we’re joined by Brian Middleton, BCBA and leader in values-driven behavior support. Brian walks us through his journey of integrating the ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy) framework into his practice, offering a powerful alternative to compliance-based behavior plans.
Together, we explore how ACT shifts the conversation from “fixing behavior” to helping individuals live in alignment with their values, even in the face of difficult thoughts or emotions. Brian shares how this approach fosters autonomy, emotional resilience, and connection—especially for neurodivergent kids whose needs are often misunderstood in traditional systems.
This episode is an invitation to reimagine support—not as control, but as collaboration rooted in dignity, consent, and purpose.
In this episode, we cover:
- An introduction to the ACT Framework and how it applies to neurodivergent support
- The role of language, acceptance, and psychological flexibility in long-term growth
- Practical strategies for parents and practitioners who want to shift their approach
Episode Resources:
Behavior Analysis & Foundational Texts
- The Four Free-Operant Freedoms
- Coercion and Its Fallout
- Tactics of Scientific Research: Evaluating Experimental Data in Psychology
- Executive Function: What They Are, How They Work, and Why They Evolved
- Executive Functioning Workbook for Kids
ACT-Based Resources for Adolescents
- The Thriving Adolescent
- Stuff That Sucks
- Your Life, Your Way
ACT Resources for Children and Behavior Analysts
- ACT for Adolescents
- The ACT Workbook for Kids
- ACT and Applied Behavior Analysis
Additional ACT-Related Resources
• • Super-Women: Superhero Therapy for Women Battling Anxiety, Depression, and Trauma
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Personal Motivations
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Speaker
responses be where you feel comfortable um as as long as you're being an advocate for meaningful change. um But people have been like, Brian, why don't you leave? And I'm like, why?
00:00:13
Speaker
be Like i'm I'm doing the good that I needed to have done for me. When I was a child, I'm trying to be the hero that I needed to be. But more importantly,
00:00:24
Speaker
um I'm trying to be the member of the community that needs to impact for change. um And like we all can make meaningful change where we're at.
Mission of the Diverge Podcast
00:00:35
Speaker
And so ah Welcome to the Diverge podcast.
00:00:39
Speaker
Inclusive of autistic and other neurodivergent voices, we exist to bridge the gap between specialized knowledge and everyday parenting. We are on a mission to bring together the most forward-thinking experts who are deep in the trenches, championing neuroaffirming and developmentally based approaches to therapy, to education, and life.
00:00:58
Speaker
Designed for parents, educators, friends, and allies. Conversation by conversation, insight by insight, We are building community and making space for all kinds of minds.
00:01:12
Speaker
Hi everyone. Welcome to the Diverge
Meet Brian Middleton, the Bearded Behaviorist
00:01:14
Speaker
Podcast. We are back on a Monday morning with Brian Middleton, our favorite Instagram BCBA. He is known as the Bearded Behaviorist and a co-founder of Mindful Behavior.
Understanding ACT for Neurodivergent Individuals
00:01:26
Speaker
Today we are jumping into part three of a four-part episode that talks about a lot of things, but very specifically, we're going to get into the ACT framework for the first time today. So the ACT framework is something called Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. therapy which is a framework that can be used with autistic individuals and other neurodivergent individuals to focus on developing psychological flexibility and learn to respond to situations, stressful situations, and just everyday situations in ways that align with their values.
00:01:57
Speaker
One of the things I loved about the ACT framework when I first found out about it was that it is value-based. So when you're working with kids or you're working with learners, one of the first sets of questions you're going to answer is what is the family values? What are the parents' values? But very specifically, what are the learners' values?
00:02:16
Speaker
And in my opinion, understanding that about any child at any age, the things that light them up, that intrinsically motivate them, is so important to helping them find a way to be in the world that is really authentic to who they are. And that is what I love so much about this framework and its implementation.
00:02:35
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So I'm really excited to get
Parenting and Belonging in Neurodiversity
00:02:37
Speaker
into this. um Full disclosure, my kids were in the room for this recording. So you are going to get a little taste of what life is like. on this side of the world. um But all in all, really great conversation, lots of fun, and we will follow up with part four shortly. But in the meantime, let's get into it.
00:02:57
Speaker
If you live long enough, you're going to experience disability again. and again, and again. and a society that is accommodating and accepting of disability is a society that is accessible by everyone.
00:03:11
Speaker
Mm-hmm. ah Like we we want to like everybody's like autism awareness. Great. I'm aware of autism. Now what? OK. Autism acceptance. Great. I accept autism exists.
00:03:22
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OK. Autism inclusion. Cool.
00:03:27
Speaker
But awareness, acceptance, inclusion are stepping stones to belonging. Oh, my God. I can't believe you said that. I posted a podcast today about my son's nature school, um which is not like run by people who have experience with ah special needs kids or autistic kids.
00:03:47
Speaker
And one of the things that I have been like blown away by we talk about in the podcast is the the founder's approach. Her name is Claudia and she's like, I just treat kids as humans. And that when ah when a class comes in, like I'm paying attention to what everybody needs.
00:04:04
Speaker
Like some kids, you know, need to do X, Y, Z before they can sit down or by whatever it is. She goes, and because we're needs based, like it's really easy to accommodate someone like order.
00:04:16
Speaker
Like we just, and I had a kind of a moment and I haven't posted it yet, but it's going to my personal like social. I'm like, that's kind of the root of belonging, right? like Fitting in is like,
00:04:27
Speaker
not rocking the boat, right? And I think we all focus on fitting in sometimes for our kids so that they can have certain experiences. But at the end of the day, what we really want is for them to belong.
00:04:38
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And they can't belong in a space that is not acknowledging and meeting their needs in whatever that capacity is. yeah um So very interesting that you said that because I've been mauling over that post for quite a bit this morning.
00:04:54
Speaker
ah a A quick brief, like I love the full quote, but I'll give a very, because we're, we're we're this is going to be long anyways, so you might have to do three episodes. Or more.
00:05:06
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um Brene Brown. That's exactly what I was referencing in my head. sure True belonging does not require you to change who you are. It requires you to be who you are. right Now, I want to be clear on something.
00:05:17
Speaker
Change who you are doesn't mean not learning. Right. Yes. Right. It's learning is a process, but like, like when we're talking changing who you are, it means changing your nature. Adapting to the environment is not the same thing as masking. Right.
00:05:40
Speaker
In the environment. Like i if I walk into a funeral, I'm a, I'm a pretty verbose person. I'm going to talk quietly. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
00:05:50
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If I walk into an Irish funeral, it's going to be laughing and joking and all the things yeah because Irish funerals are like, it's a celebration of life. I'm going to adapt. Right.
Role of an Environmental and Stimulus Analyst
00:05:59
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um And it's, and it's so going back to behavior analysis, one-on-one, I'm not a behavior analyst. I'm a so a environmental analyst. I'm a stimulus analyst.
00:06:10
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So I analyze how stimulus impacts behavior. um And, and so discriminative stimulus is, SD is what we use. It's behavior math.
00:06:22
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um it when When we use discriminative stimulus, that means there's a signal that reinforcement might be available.
00:06:31
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So my job with being a behavior analyst, working with children who have um very narrow or or um small repertoires of discrimination. Right. Right.
00:06:46
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um Sorry for the jargon ease. ah But if if if they're not picking up that reinforcement is available, my job is to help them learn how to spot it.
00:06:58
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For themselves. Yeah. Right. ah and And then like I teach them how to spot it, but I don't force them to take it and and And my favorite example of this is is a is, and this is not just behavior analysis, but I'm referring to behavior analysis because this is what i my primary area that I know.
Exploring Functional Play
00:07:17
Speaker
um Functional play. ah All right. so I'm going to blow some minds here if you're if you're very familiar with functional play. Most people, when they're referring to functional play, they're referring to function-based play.
00:07:32
Speaker
ah Yep. Okay. So you're, you're referring to play that's based on the function of the toy or item. Yes. Function. Yep. Function based play. play with it So right yeah. So i'm I'm proposing that we change our terminology away from functional play to function based play.
00:07:48
Speaker
Function based play is a type of functional play. Right. So functional play is a bigger umbrella. Yeah. What is, what is functional play? What does, what, what are the functions of play?
00:07:59
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Functions of play. Well, we're not talking about behavior functions. I'm talking about like what it does for the person. Functional play encourages learning, encourages exploration. right Functional play reduces your ah your cortisol, norepinephrine and epinephrine levels. So it's recovery.
00:08:19
Speaker
it's it's It's rest. Functional play is opportunities to connect and engage with your environment. It's it's ah it's a way for you to reset.
00:08:31
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So functional play, if it serves any of those functions and it's not hurting yourself or others, that's that's the crew yeah that that That's functional play. Functional play. I could talk for hours about play.
00:08:44
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, exactly. We are huge play-based people here. like So function-based play falls under functional play, and I'm going to teach children how to engage in function-based play Because I'm trying to expand their repertoire of reinforcement so they can see, oh, you you can. And this is an actual learner I work with.
00:09:05
Speaker
ah This learner loves Thomas. Everything Thomas. We go through this. Right. My house. Yeah. And and this learner would watch for hours at a time. But like their their repertoire of a play ah huh was was limited to dangling.
00:09:23
Speaker
Where they would take anything and just dangle and swing it back and forth, swing it back and forth. Now, now parents, and it because the parents started with pathology paradigm, that's what they knew. They were like, well, this is a problem because kids are people are getting hurt. It's swinging it and hitting people or it's breaking things, that sort of stuff.
00:09:42
Speaker
and And so like the behavior analyst who was on the case before me was trying to stop it. ah Yeah. Mm-hmm. and and i And I came onto the case and I was like, hold up, time up. yeah What's wrong with this? And they're like, well, okay, he's dangling chains and swinging them around and it's hurt people.
00:10:00
Speaker
He's dangling things that are fragile. but side yeah I'm like, okay, so what can he dangle? Yeah. What can you dangle? Yes. All right. Cool. Absolutely. we how do we How do we say yes?
00:10:11
Speaker
How do we say yes? Yeah. So we started with what can we dangle? And then it got better because we started expanding. um So we started expanding the the learner's repertoire by using antecedent behavior consequence contingency analysis techniques.
00:10:30
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So we looked at like, so we, I utilize um analysis of behavior using the behavior analytic framework yeah to identify for the learner.
Expanding Leisure and Play Skills
00:10:43
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What was their reinforcement, ah hu which their reinforcement was functional play of dangling. yeah And so what we did is we very, very carefully without using coercion,
00:10:56
Speaker
Using ascent, using interest and curiosity. And there there was there was neutral. It was like, eh, whatever response. but But using the, okay, we put the train on the track, push it back and forth one or two times. Okay, go back to your the the play that you like to play. Right, right, right.
00:11:15
Speaker
Right. So the consequence for the behavior of pushing the train on the track for just a couple seconds was dangle, which that's reinforcement. The kid's going for the reinforcement. um and And what I did is I taught my staff and and we did it over and over and over again.
00:11:30
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um In a fun, non-aversive, like it as soon as the kids said, nope, like and they were non-speaking, but they they could say nope and nope any way they want. And I think that's a good thing to talk about is everyone can assent.
00:11:43
Speaker
Yes. Yes. And with and withdrawal assent. So as soon as as soon as he withdrew his assent, yeah we we stopped and we and we didn't make him. and Yes, we had set periods where we sit down and do it.
00:11:55
Speaker
And by definition, it was DTT, yeah discrete trial training, but it wasn't coercive and aversive DTT because a discrete trial means that there's a discrete beginning and end.
00:12:06
Speaker
I can do discrete trial training. I can do two or three small trials and we're done. rare Right, right, right. And that's what we were doing. um And the test to see if this work is after we, what we did is we we worked on expanding his repertoire across five or six different leisure skills.
00:12:30
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. And then what we did is we just... I had a day and and i'm I'm not kidding when I say this. It was a day. It was ah this learner was high support needs.
00:12:41
Speaker
ah The school district was sending educational stuff into the center okay ah to make sure was happening. So it was a collaboration between school district and us. and and And one of the very first things that i implemented was this kid needs to have leisure and needs to have breaks because before it was like constantly on.
00:13:01
Speaker
So this was a full day kid. and um and And by the way, shocker, aggression, dropped off to nothing yeah as soon as as soon as we implemented like like leisure and and rest and like doing the things the kid wanted yeah and play.
00:13:19
Speaker
ah But like we we had a day where I was like i told parents, I told staff, we are doing the only demands we're doing is bathroom. yeah and And stopping to eat because the kid would would have just played without eating for hours.
00:13:34
Speaker
yeah um so So like it was basic needs that were the only demands we placed. The rest of it was we follow his lead. And before it would have been an hour or so of dangling followed by frustration and aggression because rightfully the kid is bored.
00:13:53
Speaker
Right. Yeah. That was because that was part of the problem was like, I'm overstimulated. I'm kind of done with this, but i don't have anything else to do. So before that's what it would have happened. The day was a day filled with fun and laughter and exploration and excitement and...
00:14:13
Speaker
This kid, like it was around other kids, um yeah speaking and non-speaking. i And, and like spontaneously during this day, the kid actually picked up three additional leisure skills and That we had never taught just because our entire focus was saying, hey, I want to expand your awareness of what is available.
00:14:38
Speaker
Now, were there certain things that we taught how to engage in that the kid didn't really go after? absolutely. Yeah. Like just just because I know how to pick up a basketball and shoot hoops doesn't mean that's going to be my choice. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
00:14:58
Speaker
um We saw so many similar things. So we did a lot of DAR when we started homeschooling my son and the amount of skills that showed up in play and the amount of things that we were able to mimic and just talk about even emotions, all sorts of stuff. And it was like a skill explosion when he was able to like just sort of process his world through play and have some partners in that.
00:15:24
Speaker
Uh, huge, huge advocate for that from massive, from all directions, all directions. And then thing that you said about function-based play that I found really interesting is we've never really corrected play in any respects in my house.
00:15:38
Speaker
Um, and as he moved through, if you're familiar with DIR, but there's these like functional stages of it as he sort of like moved through those stages and the further away we got, I watched his play become incredibly function-based.
00:15:54
Speaker
Like all the way down to like within a year, we were at like the children's museum and he was in the fire truck and doing all of the things you do in a fire truck with a bunch of kids running around and you would have never.
00:16:05
Speaker
Had you not understood there was a language better barrier, you would have never known. Like it was it was amazing to watch. So big fan of play.
Relationship Building in Behavior Analysis
00:16:12
Speaker
I actually looked up because i I'm not familiar with dr DIR, but i do know floor time. Yeah, it's DIR floor time.
00:16:18
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't know the the acronym. Yeah. But but i looked it up and I'm looking at actually somebody wrote this article where it's comparing and contrasting to ABA. And I think it's absolutely hilarious because it's it's the dominant species of ABA.
00:16:32
Speaker
Of course it is. Absolutely. yeah's like It's like, it's going back to that, you know, that article I i highly recommend people check out because it's like DIR relationship focus, ABA or goal oriented yeah on behavior change.
00:16:46
Speaker
And I'm just like, You know, that that this this right here highlights something that ah that drives me absolutely nuts, is that um somewhere along the way, and I don't have the the energy or capacity to to deep dive into this, but if somebody else does, please do, and include me, because I love to know about it. Somewhere along the way, behavior analysis stopped using the term rapport building.
00:17:12
Speaker
or report And they use pairing, which sounds so weird. Okay, so so I'm going to break it down. yeah Pairing refers to stimulus-stimulus pairing. Yeah. Okay. Yep. So so it's it's it's ah classical conditioning, a.k.a. a Pavlovian conditioning. Uh-huh. Where you're you're pairing a neutral stimulus with a unconditioned stimulus or pairing neutral stimuls with the condition stimulus conditioned stimulus.
00:17:38
Speaker
So that way you get a reinforcing or ah or it becomes a conditioned stimulus. Pairing is a part of rapport building.
00:17:50
Speaker
it's it's it's it's It's a mechanistic. So we're describing the mechanism. But just be just because I'm using a Lego brick doesn't mean that I have to describe the dinosaur made out of Lego bricks by Lego brick. Like it's a collection of Lego bricks. I can say that's a dinosaur.
00:18:09
Speaker
yeah Right? yeah Like but people like mechanisms bad. And I'm like, is it? but be Because like, if it were for mechanism, we would not be able to identify, like really critical things that have better our lives. yeah But at the same time, this goes back to the moral disengagement piece versus jargonism.
00:18:30
Speaker
And sometimes jargonism can lead into moral disengagement unintentionally. Yeah. man So it's like ah ABA or goal oriented. OK, what's wrong with goro goal oriented if the goal is to build a relationship? Right.
00:18:44
Speaker
Yes. ah Right.
Complementing DIR and ABA Approaches
00:18:46
Speaker
um So another one in this little little comparison contrast, individual based on the child's unique needs and strengths often follow standardized protocols using a structural systematic approach.
00:18:56
Speaker
I mean.
00:19:00
Speaker
Yes. And like, that's, that's the pathology paradigm approach of we're just gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna, I think that's, and it's interesting too, because I've always been, I'm not going to say, I've always tried to be diplomatic about ABA, but the predominant thing of yeah available to us is, is what you're reading in that article.
00:19:21
Speaker
um But what, when you really sort of like sort of like back it out and look at everything, there's there's room for both. Like, I think DIR is a very like powerful tool, if for no other reason than teaching parents to like, yes, what a setup for learning looks like, because it's all about those pre learning skills, how to build relationship and rapport. Like such a powerful tool. I'm like, but it can also be used in conjunction with good ABA. I won't say good ABA. I will say behavior analysis that is aligned with neurodiversity. There you go. Because but i take his behavior because reinforcement isn't good or bad. Yep.
00:20:04
Speaker
punishment isn't good or bad. It's like aligned with it. Yes. Like it's, um, and, and I'm going to briefly bring it back to somebody I mentioned earlier, Greg Hanley, uh, the creator of PFASBT.
00:20:16
Speaker
He wrote this, uh, this, this interesting article titled today's ABA. Yeah. And i'm going to go look it up. I'm putting all this stuff in the show notes. Whoever reads our show notes is like, and i and and I, and I appreciate, i appreciate what Greg was going for.
00:20:35
Speaker
And I'm not ah not trying to lambast him. i I am frustrated with some of the the approaches he takes. If there's ever an opportunity where I could have a conversation with them, I'd love to be able to have a conversation with them. I promise I'm not talking shit on you, Greg, because I really appreciate the stuff that you're that that that you yeah you are doing and have done.
00:20:55
Speaker
and at the same time, today's ABA is a diffusion of responsibility.
00:21:01
Speaker
Meaning? because Because today's ABA is saying we have updated and that's not what we do now. Yes. Do you agree with that? Yes or no? oh No, I don't agree with today's ABA is we've updated and that's what we do now because the dominant species of ABA is still a coercion-based pathology paradigm frames. And that is actually the hardest conversation to have because what has happened and what has sort of like leaked out into the mainstream conversation of yes and no
00:21:34
Speaker
is the science of ABA is valid, right?
Evolving Paradigms in Behavior Analysis
00:21:37
Speaker
So someone's saying that. So you can get into a conversation with whomever who's using what you call the dominant species. And what they want to keep going back to is like, that's not ABA, that's not ABA, that's not what it's about.
00:21:50
Speaker
But at the same time, i know- The conversation we're having is in no way neurodiversity, like what's being used on the other side of the table is not neurodiversity affirming. Which is which is why i like to look why I like to take the step back and say pathology paradigm yeah or functional to contextual paradigm right or neurodiversity paradigm.
00:22:10
Speaker
Like neurodiversity falls under functional contextual. And then again, this is my terminology that I'm trying to push so that we can be we can be broader so that that behavior analysts can see, oh, this fits.
00:22:22
Speaker
Yeah. But neurodiversity paradigm and functional contextual paradigm are aligned. Are they going to 100 percent agree on everything? no Are there going to be mistakes made? Yes.
00:22:32
Speaker
Are there, are are we, ah a paradigm is a collection of assumptions that have formed how we approach something. Correct. Yeah. Right. And so that,
00:22:45
Speaker
ah One of the articles I shared ah that I haven't mentioned yet, The Four Free Operant Freedoms by Ogden R. Lindsley. Yes, copied that down. Yeah, I saw that you did in the show notes. That's awesome.
00:22:55
Speaker
um So I referenced that because Ogden R. Lindsley, he is another one of the big... fathers of behavior analysis. And he's actually the creator of ah precision teaching and the standard acceleration chart.
00:23:12
Speaker
and And his stuff is just superb. And by the way, when I frame this, like he's a human, just like everyone else. So when I, when I criticize somebody or when I praise somebody, it's within the context of their human. Yeah.
00:23:25
Speaker
Right. So I'm not saying that he was perfect. I'm not going to, we don't have, we don't need heroes. We need people. Yep. Right. So but this was, I think, one of the last articles he published before he passed.
00:23:37
Speaker
And it's called The Four Free Operant Freedoms. And in this article, which he published in the late 90s, he said, hey.
00:23:45
Speaker
I don't know if you guys realize this, but there's something that got lost. Right. in behavior analysis. And this thing that got lost was the four free operant freedoms. And, um, I mentioned Murray Sigmund's book, coercion and its fallout.
00:24:00
Speaker
Murray Sigmund also wrote another really important book inside of the behavior analysis, uh, community, which is, uh, tactics on scientific research. Yeah. And, and in the four free operant freedoms, uh,
00:24:13
Speaker
Lindley pointed out that the the free operant freedoms are were so assumed that Murray Sigmund didn't even feel the need to define them in his book on tactics of research, which was a mistake. Yeah.
00:24:28
Speaker
But no, it's very interesting. but But like, and then Lovaus came along and behavior goes for reinforcement flows. Oh, hey, I just used behavior analysis on behavior analysis. yeah ah Where's the reinforcement flowing from? It's flowing from the pathology paradigm. right What's going to shape our language?
00:24:46
Speaker
The pathology paradigm. What's going to lead to us morally disengaging? The pathology paradigm. Yep. It makes perfect sense. so it's a time for a correction. and And so like this attitude of...
00:24:58
Speaker
um Just for people, so people know, I'm poking my nose and making it so it's turned up. yeah So it's kind of snooty because you're not going see the video. ah we That's not behavior analysis.
00:25:10
Speaker
That's scientific analysis. Yeah. Like, it's it's like, what? Yeah. no no No, just because it's not framed in in the way that you understand it doesn't mean it's pseudoscience. Right.
00:25:22
Speaker
Exactly. Now, now kent the purpose of science is refining what we see. So can we be pseudoscientific unintentional? Of course. Yeah, of course. like Circular logic, right?
00:25:35
Speaker
But it the idea is we need to get excited about the discovery and get excited about Re-learning. Yes. ah It sucks to say i was wrong.
00:25:49
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and that's something I wish I could help. I wish there were better language for from purely a parental standpoint and I don't like centering parents in these arguments, but I think sometimes one of the dominant reasons it is so hard to move past certain things it is because there's a whole, yeah, don't touch that.
00:26:10
Speaker
There is a whole group of parents who came before you who fought for something very specific because there was nothing else. And so when you come in and say, um,
00:26:21
Speaker
This, you know, this happens, this happened to me, i was talking to someone who who founded an ABA school for a son, because there was nothing else. And he was like, I was trying to explain to him PDA. And I was like, you know, I talked to this guy who like, runs a PDA school, ran a PDA school and like homeschools. I was like, and explain this thing to me called backwards design. He's like, where these kids had no interest in building rockets with me, but I went and like launched the like,
00:26:45
Speaker
Launched the rockets, invited them, and then we worked backwards from there. He goes, that sounds like backwards chaining in ABA. So like we're it's trying to find like middle ground, but at the same time, it's like, no. I'm like, but every BCBA in this area I've ever put my son near, like within two seconds, they have...
00:27:01
Speaker
ran past seeing him as a person and are pathologizing behaviors that I know the function is different. Like I know it's not what they think it is. And so it's just, there's no dictionary language that is safe for even parents to be able to engage and say like, no, we got to be able to take this further.
00:27:18
Speaker
Like, and this beautifully goes into act. Yeah. So, so, so, so beautifully. Um, so I'm going to, ah see if I can pull this up, um, and see if, oh, there's no way to quickly, share it. Okay. Well, um, that'd be nice i will I will try to remember to email this to you. I have published this on my social media and I and i will again.
00:27:51
Speaker
um so So acceptance and commitment therapy or training. yeah So there's ah ACT. um is We say ACT, not ACT because no one wants to take a test.
00:28:03
Speaker
Yep. ha ha I just used a little relational framework there. and so So ACT, i Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, which is actually funny because the name the acronym we use, ACT, also reinforces the idea that we're taking action. This is a doing thing.
00:28:22
Speaker
um So there's there's two branches of ACT. There's ACT that is talk therapy oriented. And there's a branch of ACT that's training oriented.
00:28:36
Speaker
um And they overlap both. a lot. um and and
00:28:45
Speaker
I'll pause for a sec so you can... Okay. ah So yeah, with with ACT, the the the framework I specialize in is a training piece. I eventually want to go back to school and i be able to to do the counseling side, the talk therapy piece.
00:29:04
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, cool. But one of the things that I do a lot of is I do a lot of telling behavior analysts who that is not our scope to do talk therapy.
00:29:15
Speaker
it is It is not, I'm going to say this again, it is not our scope to do talk therapy unless you have the appropriate training. So like the training piece, the act ah ACT R, so there's a little lowercase R next to ACT.
00:29:30
Speaker
It's just ACT. um The behavior analyst piece is um acceptance and commitment therapy and training is focused on building self-management strategies to help you overcome struggles and challenges that come from our verbal behaviors.
00:29:49
Speaker
um And the struggles and behaviors that ACT addresses, ah they have special names for them. um One of them is experiential avoidance. Yeah.
00:29:59
Speaker
Okay. ah You hear avoidance, you're probably thinking escape avoidance. And yes, it's related. Yeah. um That's a struggle. And the other one is something that's called verbal fusion or cognitive fusion. Remember it earlier I said I was going to bring it back around cognitive revolution. Uh-huh.
00:30:16
Speaker
Okay. ah I don't even heat know how I keep all this stuff straight in my head. ah but
00:30:24
Speaker
Oh, you're you're muted. I can't hear you. I'm very impressed. I'm usually the person that people are like, how do you hold all that information in your head? You're like, you make me look like ah like a okay what's the word?
00:30:36
Speaker
You make me look like an amateur. There you go. So ah that I am an amateur because amateur means for the love of. that's right So I do this, i do this for the love of, so ah we're, we're, we're going to go to your, I'm going to reframe and say, be an amateur, love it.
00:30:54
Speaker
So, okay. So um the two, the two struggles, um cognitive fusion or verbal fusion, that's where you are fused or entangled with your experience. Okay.
00:31:11
Speaker
And ah there's ah a post, social media posts that me and and a friend are going to be putting out very shortly. um That's ah that's ah a little bit, a lot of bit crass.
00:31:26
Speaker
I actually love your social, by the way. Thank you. Sometimes I just need people who encourage me to like rage. Yeah. I'm not encouraging the raise. I'm encouraging reflection. It's it's just so you know.
00:31:40
Speaker
But so so this friend, they have a ah platform that I need to confirm that they're ready to to to to have it to publish it. the pla their Their social is going to going to be function like an executive.
00:31:54
Speaker
um Yeah. and And their tag is function like an exec. So E-X-E-C. E-X-E-C. Okay. Yeah. Because because ah Meta was saying the executive function like an executive was too long.
00:32:06
Speaker
um but But we're putting out an act metaphor that is based off of um
00:32:14
Speaker
a metaphor that was shared by the comedian child Kyle Cease. Mm-hmm. which Kyle sees was my introduction to act without introducing me to act. Yeah. um So i'm I'm giving credit to the person who came up with the original idea, but then I expanded it.
00:32:29
Speaker
So the post, the social media post is our thoughts are like a poop.
00:32:36
Speaker
Okay. So ah our thoughts come and go. So if you compare that to food entering in So we we take in information and we digest it.
00:32:49
Speaker
And just like poops, thoughts come and go. Right? So, and as is natural, digestion leads to bowel movements. Right.
00:33:00
Speaker
Likewise, taking in information leads to thoughts. Yeah. Right. And stimulus is information. So like it doesn't necessarily have to be verbal information. It can just be I'm in the environment. A thought pops up.
00:33:13
Speaker
OK, so what happens when a bowel movement shows up unexpectedly?
00:33:20
Speaker
Um, I'm like, if you ask my husband, my least comfortable, like topic of conversation is body humor. Sorry. It's okay. I'm not trying to be body humor. I'm trying to, I'm trying to be whatever it's called, but, but yeah. So when a bowel moment shows up, we, we go to the bathroom.
00:33:37
Speaker
Right. So like you, you, you look for a place to relieve yourself. Right. when when ah when a When a thought pops up. Right. When a bowel movement pops up.
00:33:48
Speaker
What would you do if you believe that you're ah that you are your bowel movement?
00:33:56
Speaker
If you believe that you are your bowel movement, you would not want to let it go. you would hold it in. It would be terrifying. I'm losing a piece of myself. I can't let this go. i need to keep this.
00:34:08
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So you would be constipated. So that's that's a type of experiential avoidance. got it I'm avoiding my thoughts. I'm holding on to it or I'm fused to it to the point of I can't let go of it.
00:34:21
Speaker
Okay. What happens? What would happen if you believe that you had to get rid of your bowel movement as soon as you felt it?
00:34:32
Speaker
Right. You would be you would be spewing everywhere. You would be spewing your thoughts everywhere. you would be you would be compulsive. You would be ah just like the the the thought the feeling is in complete control. You're fused and entangled with that experience.
00:34:48
Speaker
Right. And you're also at the same time trying to get rid of it. So it's a it's a it's I'm entangled with it because I have to put it out there, but I'm avoiding it because I don't want to experience. so if I get it out there, I get it away from me.
00:35:01
Speaker
day And then like when we use the bathroom, right what do we do after we're done? After we're done with the bathroom, right we we we do follow for certain steps.
00:35:15
Speaker
So poops are are poops bad? No. Are poops good? No. They are. We know they stink. right Right. But they're neither bad nor but good. So if you believe that your thoughts are you This will make you constipated.
00:35:32
Speaker
If you believe that you have to get rid of your thoughts ASAP, this makes it so that means that you have basically emotional diarrhea, right? It's bad. When you have a bowel movement and we follow those steps, the steps we follow when we go to the bathroom are we we go to the closest toilet.
00:35:52
Speaker
We remove any barriers in the way so we can relieve ourselves. hu We take care of business. We wipe, we flush, we wash our hands. yeah we move on. Okay.
00:36:03
Speaker
When we have an emotional bowel movement, we follow different steps before, during and after as well. Yeah. And act presents us with six steps that we can follow and they can be done in any order. Unlike with the bathroom, yeah because thoughts are a little bit more flexible, right? But the first one is diffusion. So that's taking a a so a step back from the experience.
00:36:27
Speaker
Escape is not bad. Escape is not bad. Avoidance is not bad. Right. The reason why of ah experiential avoidance causes suffering is because you can't avoid your thoughts and your emotions. Right. Like, ah try not to think about a pink elephant.
00:36:48
Speaker
Right. yeah All you think about is a pink elephant. Yeah. And if even if you manage to successfully think about a purple rhinoceros instead of a pink elephant, the act of thinking about the purple rhinoceros now means that you're thinking about the pink elephant by connection. Right. Exactly.
00:37:04
Speaker
Right. it's It's try not to think about your pain. Temporarily, it will numb it. i'm Sorry, numb it. the words Yeah. it will te Temporarily, and numb your pain, but it's not going to alleviate it.
00:37:17
Speaker
ah yeah So diffusion is allowing you to step back long enough to then contact the now. the The term that's used is contact the present moment. OK, then put ourselves in context or self as context is that what that what they use.
00:37:34
Speaker
Right. So we're putting ourselves in context or we're putting the other person in context because others as context is the same thing. Have you ever encountered a a you find something out about as a celebrity or famous person and you and you get really upset about.
00:37:51
Speaker
Not me personally, but I do know people who have. Yeah. And that's because they're avoiding the experience of accepting that that person is human. And they're seeing an opposite of self as context is self as content.
00:38:10
Speaker
Or self as, there's another one I keep on forgetting, but basically the others as context is important too. um And i so so like we're putting ourselves and others in context.
00:38:22
Speaker
We're accepting what's happening. Acceptance is not resignation. Right. Yes. Acceptance is not, i'm going to say it again. Acceptance is not resignation. resignation ex it's It's acknowledging what is actually happening.
00:38:41
Speaker
And it's being aware that whether you can control what's happening or not, It's there. Right. yeah So you're not avoiding it. Next. And again, these can happen in any pattern, yeah like any order. So and when you look at the hexaflex, the act hexaflex spelled X E A F L E X, that it's presented in like a little, uh, uh,
00:39:07
Speaker
star six pointed star um so and and the lines drawn between show how they're connected i mean um but uh because it can be done in any order so identifying values is another step it's we identify our values and and then we and then step six is taking committed action towards your values okay so so you're you're you're to recite a truism that's often said Or of maybe a prayer, you know, for some people they say it as a prayer.
00:39:39
Speaker
Lord, help me to accept what I can't control and and do the things that I can control. Right. So yeah it's it's a really good prayer. And I will tell you this right now.
00:39:51
Speaker
Acceptance and commitment therapy is not new. Didn't think it was. It's a ah a well, OK, the the procedural steps and the research behind it are new.
00:40:04
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. That's fair. Okay. But, but the concepts of, of act have been around for as long as humans have been around. I want to be clear on something. Act is not mindfulness.
00:40:17
Speaker
Okay. Mindfulness is bigger than act. like and It's the umbrella. It's the umbrella. Okay. Mindfulness is bigger than act.
00:40:28
Speaker
People will use linguistic shorthand by saying, do mindfulness behavior. Okay. Oh, do mindfulness behavior. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Like, so, so people do, but it is not mindfulness.
00:40:41
Speaker
There are religions that literally use Hinduism and, and, and Buddhism where that is an actual religious term. And I want to be respectful of those. And I am very clearly saying that the the things that, that act does can be mindfulness, but that does not mean act is mindfulness. That's totally fair.
00:41:03
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Diffusion is a type of mindfulness. It's ah a process of disentangling yourself from what's happening so that you can observe Contacting the present moment is a type of mindfulness.
00:41:17
Speaker
Acceptance is a type of mindfulness. Seeing yourself in context, identifying your values and taking committed action are all types of mindfulness. yeah And so, yes, you can utilize and integrate other practices. Yes.
00:41:31
Speaker
Um, because ACT is meant to be flexible. It's a technology ahhhah that's meant to be flexible. ACT has a lot of similarities to dialectical behavioral therapy and cognitive behavioral therapy.
00:41:44
Speaker
And, and, and people who don't understand the foundational differences between ACT and CBT and DBT will often say that ACT is basically just a rebranding of that. no And, and, and, and I will say that I will,
00:42:01
Speaker
grudgingly give that to dbt okay because dbt rocks yeah i don't think i know i'm not i've heard of dbt but i'm not super familiar with it um dbt uh is is basically act approached from the body up okay Act is DBT approach from the the brain down.
00:42:22
Speaker
okay Or at least if the way it's typically practiced is act approach from the brain down. got I don't know enough about the foundational research at DBT to speak with any experience on what the big difference research and found and philosophically wise is the difference. But what I do know, it seems like they're very interrelated. Yeah.
00:42:41
Speaker
Um, but cognitive behavioral therapy and acceptance and commitment therapy are 100% not the same thing. They share some commonalities. Right.
00:42:52
Speaker
But the reason why they're 100% not the same thing is that CBT is built on a different foundation. Right. And you, and you know, it's built on a different foundation because CBT utilizes the concept of unhelpful thoughts. Right.
00:43:07
Speaker
Right. and you see and And you see the CBT therapist teaching you to challenge the thought. its Right. and and And this is an oversimplification.
00:43:19
Speaker
i do that sometimes. but But it's okay. like if As long as we state it's an oversimplification and we're we're making sure that we're not saying this is that. yeah But the oversimplification is CBT is teaching you to gaslight yourself.
00:43:35
Speaker
Yes. Mm-hmm. And the reason why CBT, i i theorize, I suspect the reason why CBT has proven to be effective is because what's happened is that People who are neurotypical, people who are not or or maybe are are closer to what looks like neurotypical. Right. Meaning they're socially accepted, meaning they're they're they're less disabled compared to others. um they They utilize the CBT strategies and they naturally adapt it.
00:44:11
Speaker
Towards the more act based type of approach. Right. Yeah. Of instead of them getting into struggle with their thought, they, but what actually happens is they challenge the thought, but it's not actually challenging. It's acknowledging the thought and then it's moving on.
00:44:29
Speaker
Right. hey But, but reports from neurodivergent folks ranging from people who experience obsessive compulsive disorder, right. to autistic, to ADHD, to multiple personality disorder, like people who who experience more disability in the environment. And remember, disability is an interaction between the individual and the environment.
00:44:55
Speaker
So it's not a noun, it's a verb. yeah Like CBT is actually increasing their disability. Yes. because Because it's teaching them a environmental mismatch.
00:45:09
Speaker
Mm-hmm. ah or Or maladaptive behavior if you want to use that. I try to avoid maladaptive because it's more pathology oriented. Yeah. But an environmental mismatch. Remember remember the the example of the tadpoles? Yep.
00:45:22
Speaker
Yep. That's an environmental mismatch. It's teaching them how to do an environmental mismatch that's not beneficial to them. But what acceptance and commitment therapy teaches is that your thoughts, feelings, emotions, experiences, they arrived for a reason.
00:45:36
Speaker
Mm-hmm. This is where we bring in biopsychosocial model. Yep. Yes. Right. That reason may be neurological. Yes. It might be endocrinological, hormone related.
00:45:48
Speaker
It may be environmental. Yep. It might be social. It might be learned to behavior. here It could be really good pattern recognition. It could be really good pattern recognition.
00:46:01
Speaker
Like that's the environmental piece, like the thoughts popping up because of the you're recognizing the pattern. It could be all of them. yeah Right. So so we know that when somebody has um I'll use ah I'll use a really great example of a learner that i worked with. And i I I was so excited to work with this team.
00:46:23
Speaker
ah This team, it was we had a ah little a little one. They were eight they were between the ages of six and eight. So very crucial developmental brain age. I'm using between the ages of six and eight, not because I'm doing an average, but it's ah that's a big brain development stage.
00:46:40
Speaker
So they could have been six, seven, or eight. It doesn't matter. like ah But um this little one, um they were experiencing... um some very obsessive compulsive like behaviors. And we were talking about some self-stimulatory sexual behaviors.
00:46:58
Speaker
We're talking about property destruction. We're talking about meltdowns. We were talking about ah tantrums too, but more meltdowns and tantrums. And there is a difference. I think I said it early on.
00:47:10
Speaker
There's a different. Yep. I have been, i have been saying that since long before i had any experience in the autism Yeah. So, so, so ah a meltdown is if we use polyvagal theory as a, as a, and there's issues with polyvagal theory. I'm not, I'm not, but i'm using it as a metaphor.
00:47:28
Speaker
I'm not saying it's perfect, yeah but if we use polyvagal theory as a metaphor, meltdowns tend to be red zone. Yes. And blue zone. Yes. um And tantrums tend to be green zone and blue zone.
00:47:41
Speaker
Okay. Now, no, they say tend to. Tend to. and Like, I'm not saying definitively. Like, you can't have... and Oh, by the way, operant behavior is tends to be green zone and blue zone. Yep.
00:47:56
Speaker
h And respondent behavior tends to be red zone and blue zone. Yeah. Yeah. So like we multiple frameworks. So how does my, my like old school babysitting definition hold up?
00:48:09
Speaker
A meltdown remains even when you think you've solved the problem. A tantrum goes away when you give them what they want. yeah like that that's it that's That's literally how I define it too.
00:48:22
Speaker
If I were to see it happening, I'm not going to try to trigger it because it's not ethical. Right. It's not ethical. No, it's not. ah i Regardless of whether it's a tantrum or a meltdown, I'm not going to intentionally try to trigger it. yeah But if I see a a a a behavior that that meets because they they can look identical, that's topography ah in behavior analysis. We call it behavior to form topography, which if you think of a topographical mess.
00:48:50
Speaker
Yeah. Like they could even look at exactly identical. Right. ah But the the it's based off the consequence. So and that when I'm meant doing parent parent interviews, I typically will assess it this way. And then if it naturally arises, I'll test it.
00:49:07
Speaker
And the test is very simple. If I give them what they want and they yeah and and they engage in regulation within a reasonable amount of time for their developmental level. Uh huh. where they're currently at. i'm not i'm not I'm not doing age levels. I'm saying current developmental level. Right.
00:49:24
Speaker
Oh, interesting. have questions about that. That's non-pathological approach. Yes. Developmentally based. Yeah. so so So we see developmental levels and we can see developmental leg levels based on age.
00:49:38
Speaker
And that's based off of that Bell curve distribution where they say- yeah Well, it's it's this age to this age is when we do this, and this age to this age is when we do this. Research is showing that autistic's developmental level is, if you use the pathology framework, delayed yeah on average compared to. But we don't need to do the palette pathology framework.
00:49:58
Speaker
Okay, I'll stop using the term delayed. yeah No, no. what i yeah it's not It's not the end of the world if you use it. know. It's what I know you're saying. I'm not going to break you over or anybody else over the coals because it's like it's it's what we're using. But if we're if we're we're trying to shift the language towards being able to see it.
00:50:15
Speaker
So we're looking at their current developmental level. So if if I deliver, if their developmental level is where I would see roughly...
00:50:26
Speaker
because I don't have a name for it. I'm just using the age developmental range. Yeah. If, if the developmental level is roughly the ages of, of, of four to six. Yeah. Okay.
00:50:37
Speaker
Then, then I'm going to, I'm going I'm going to, I'm going to give them, what well, maybe it's three to five. We'll do three to five. That's probably better. um I'm going to, I'm going to give them 30 seconds to a minute.
00:50:51
Speaker
To realize that they got what they want. And calm down. Okay. And calm down. Right. So this is this is all rough. that And this is all based off of um my experience.
00:51:03
Speaker
So there's some anecdotal pieces, but it's also based off of my reading and and yeah but in in all the different fields that collaborate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or that should be collaborating. Yeah. um But then then that's probably a tantrum.
00:51:16
Speaker
It's problem solving. It's operant. Yeah. okay Okay. If it continues after that and it's like, oh we're in it for the ride, yeah then it's respondent behavior, which is survival oriented. Respondent behavior is survival oriented.
00:51:35
Speaker
Okay. Okay. Yeah. So, and remember, if we look at the the the slight overlay of the polyvagal, respondent more likely than not is going to be blue and red zone.
00:51:48
Speaker
Right. Yes. There can be operant behavior in tantruming. And so there could be verbal behavior present because green zone tends to be more verbal. Right. Okay. but like that But more often than not, it's going to be red and green ah red and blue zone. um and And this is important because how when we're utilizing act, you can overlay. Right. with with With polyvagal theory. Yep.
00:52:18
Speaker
And you can look at it this way. And I'm i'm in process of writing ah a children's book. It is for children. I love that. that teaches them about act skills. Very cool.
00:52:30
Speaker
I originally was writing it for parents. And then I was like, hold a sec, hold on a second. um It's, this is for the kids. Well, what's amazing is when you write a book like that for parents or for kids, i frequently use them for myself too.
00:52:45
Speaker
um Like I learned how to describe the gender spectrum to my kids from a children's book about the gender spectrum. uh-huh so um and i've also given children's books about pda to friends who are like oh that kind of sounds like my kid but i'm not gonna deep dive on this i'm like here read this book so so so this approach this this act model yeah so a model of act there are multiple models of act one of my favorite models is the dnav model okay it stands for discover and notice or advisor values that one is specifically designed and created for
00:53:18
Speaker
um um sorry, ah at ah teenagers and and and tweens. um So let me find the books for it that that I can recommend. um Because that was one of my questions about ACT. is it When you first start researching it, it reads it reads a little older.
00:53:41
Speaker
Yes, there's there's I will give you some some some updated resources okay great um that that you can reference. um so So this one is going to be more geared towards therapists.
00:53:55
Speaker
Right. um But I'm going to give you a couple that are not geared towards therapists. But this first one is um The Thriving Adolescent. Okay. um The Thriving Adolescent is is very much a manual.
00:54:08
Speaker
It's very much... if if you want to dive in to something that's usable, yeah um maybe maybe maybe don't don't start here. ah Because ah because it's it's ah it's a lot.
00:54:22
Speaker
um So the thriving at a lot. Okay, it did it did copy. All right. Thank you. But um Stuff That Sucks is a really great book book.
00:54:38
Speaker
That's written for teenagers. Okay. um Fair warning for parents who may want to use this book for younger children. They do talk about stuff that sucks and that can include ah talking about some really not great things that happen in life, such as sexual assault. Mm-hmm.
00:54:58
Speaker
So this, so, so read it and use it with a, with a grain of salt yeah but um and and and modify it accordingly. um Another great book, um because i I love equipping people with tools yeah is, oh, why am I blanking on it?
00:55:23
Speaker
Um,
00:55:28
Speaker
Do I have it on my bookshelf? I might.
00:55:33
Speaker
i'm I'm looking up by author first because my bookshelf is ah as a hot mess right now. And so it it would be me rummaging a lot. um There's an actual literal... I think I found it.
00:55:46
Speaker
um Your Life, Your Way. So Your Life, Your Way is a workbook Written for teens, more teens than tweens, but you can use it with tweens.
00:55:57
Speaker
um That if you follow it together with your child, it practices the skills and it guides you through. Very cool. Okay. so So I love equipping people with meaningful things.
00:56:11
Speaker
um Stuff that sucks in your white your life your way, both are under 20 bucks. Okay, good to know. Actually, have a ton of people I'm sending it to. They have teenagers, like PDA teenagers. Okay. um So, ah Act for Children um is a fairly recent book.
00:56:32
Speaker
Act for Treating Children, my bad. Act for Treating Children, my bad. This one is, ah so Behavior Analysts in the Crowd,
00:56:41
Speaker
You're going to read this. It's by Tamara Black. Dr. Black is amazing. um This is geared more for talk therapist, child therapist, speech therapy, like the therapy therapist. Okay.
00:56:54
Speaker
Okay. it You will get value from it for reading it. Yeah. It it is accessible. It's the the model that Tamara introduces, the KidFlex. Yeah.
00:57:08
Speaker
which is fantastic. I love the KidFlex. um Tamara also created a really great book and she recently sent me a copy of it but because she's like, can you review this for me? I'm like, oh yeah, sure.
00:57:21
Speaker
Happy to. ah But so um I'm dropping all this in here because these these are great people and I want them to i want them to be successful. yeah um But she recently created a wonderful workbook that uses the KidFlex called the ACT Workbook for Kids.
00:57:38
Speaker
And I dropped that link and I'll drop the title. work It's really good. So this is more younger children. Okay, great. um And so... And then for the behavior analysts in the crowd, um if you want a really good introduction to act from a behavior analytic um for framework, um I hate that ABAI was the ones that published it because, mirror but but like this this that's the source that you get it from.
00:58:09
Speaker
um But it's acceptance and commitment therapy for behavior analysts. um Please, if you are not a behavior analyst and you do not know the behavior analytic jargon, do yourself a favor. Don't read it.
00:58:24
Speaker
It's heavy. You know that's a warning I like need, right? Because I'll just be like, oh, let me check this out. Your eyes will go cross-eyed. Yeah. um it is It is a co-authorship between Mark Dixon, Stephen Hayes, and Jordan Belisle.
00:58:39
Speaker
his ah his Jordan Belisle's last name is spelled, it looks like Belisle. Belisle is the pronunciation. It's French name. um Jordan and I have actually co-taught a how to use ACT for behavior analysts through mindful behavior.
00:58:54
Speaker
um We have a practicum. Oh, yes. I know mindful behavior. Yeah. Yeah, ah I'm a co-owner. and Oh, you are? Okay. I didn't get all the connections. I've talked to, is it Gennelly?
00:59:05
Speaker
Gennelly. Yeah, I've talked to Gennelly before. Yeah. Yeah, Gennelly's amazing. I love i love her. she is She's ah a bestie. You know what? I actually think you might have connected me to Gennelly. Possibly. a year and a half ago because I was looking for like some sort of neuroaffirming ABA in New Jersey, which doesn't really exist, just for the record.
00:59:24
Speaker
Yeah. and I mean, it does serve Mary and Jersey behavior, right? but she's like She's really far from me. And it and we all we use her now, but at the time, it was like too far. Crap.
00:59:35
Speaker
Oh, yeah. but But yeah, so Mary's amazing. Oh, I love her. i just I literally had a call with her at 11 o'clock, and I got off the phone, like, I love her. her. i'm I'm this next week I'm flying out to to Baltimore because I work remotely into Baltimore and I told Mary I was going to be out there she's like can I drive up and I'm like how far is that she's like two hours and like that yeah I think I'm like that's a long way and she's like yeah but it's closer than you normally are I'm like okay I could get you all to Baltimore like four hours so we're like two hours from each other okay cool
01:00:07
Speaker
But yeah, so acceptance a commitment therapy for for behavior analysts, Jordan Belisle and I have worked together um at Jordan's lab, um has proven and And that's what the practicum is about, is showing you how to behavior analysts pay attention, proven that you can do strictly act-based treatment and get it approved through insurance.
01:00:32
Speaker
Yes. They have tested it over and over and over. and that And that workshop goes into how to do it successfully. Okay. right With evidence based approaches, act as behavior analysis, how we apply it matters.
01:00:49
Speaker
Yeah. um I am not going to. great ah i'm I'm going to be very careful to not stray into areas where it's out of my scope of practice and competence. hmm. There are behavior analysts who are clinical behavior analysts and know that does not mean you worked in an autism clinic. Yeah.
01:01:06
Speaker
It's a very specific subsection of behavior analysis where they can do talk therapy. It's ah it's a very specialized subscope, but you have to have that training. Yeah. so Okay. um So so like i'm I'm going to be very clear here. That's good.
01:01:21
Speaker
That's good stuff for parents to know too because a lot of times- what I have seen happen. And I don't know if this is common practice um in the ABA world, but I have seen BCA's yes you to death when you ask about certain techniques or like certain neuro affirming things. They're like, oh, yeah, yeah, I know that. And then two minutes later, you're like, my spidey senses ah went off. You have no idea what I'm talking about. You're like Googling hardcore after this meeting.
01:01:52
Speaker
So it's always important to kind of know some of the nuances when you're looking. Yeah. and And the other thing is, is that like, if the person doesn't know, and that's your only option, try to test to see if they're willing to learn.
01:02:06
Speaker
Because, because I will tell you this, like rigidity is a behavior.
01:02:12
Speaker
Rigidity is a behavior. Oh, yeah. Rigidity is a behavior. Yeah. And behavior analysts can be rigid. Oh, can they?
01:02:23
Speaker
and and And I will tell you this right now. I have been a BCBA asshole. Yeah. A BCBA asshole. A BCBA asshole. Like, i've i've I've caught myself being that. Like, and... and We're human. Can we, can we, can we give each other the chance to be human?
01:02:40
Speaker
Um, I, I dropped one last book. Uh, it's, it's act made simple. Um, it's, it's by Dr. Russ Harris. Actually, I lied. I'm not going to drop one last book. to give you a couple more books because I, I almost forgot to talk about Dr. Scarlet.
01:02:57
Speaker
Uh, and, and, and Dr. Scarlet is a favorite human. Um, sorry. Uh,
01:03:07
Speaker
is Okay, so so Dr. Scarlett um has an amazing book that they wrote, and the kindlell is good the Kindle book is only three bucks.
01:03:20
Speaker
So like that they first off, Janine Scarlett, J-A-N-I-N-A Scarlett, amazing human being first and foremost. um If you want to check out some of their other stuff, they have a fantastic podcast called Harry Potter Therapy.
01:03:38
Speaker
Oh, where I think I've heard of actually. but They go through, it's an unofficial, unofficial, very unofficial, but they go through chapter by chapter each podcast episode and talk about each chapter of Harry Potter within the context of acceptance and commitment therapy. Yeah.
01:03:54
Speaker
Okay. it's It's very fun and very accessible. And the podcast is free. um This book that I linked in the chat, it shouldn't be this way. Learning to accept things that you just can't change. Uh-huh.
01:04:08
Speaker
um This at present is the best book I've ever seen written from the context of disability and acceptance of commitment therapy. Very cool. Okay.
01:04:20
Speaker
Okay. Other, ah other ACT professionals, yeah. Sometimes get it, sometimes don't. Right. Okay. I'm not going to name names because I'm not interested in lambasting people. I'm simply going to say sometimes the medical model creeps through and it'll impact the way people think.
01:04:38
Speaker
Yeah, of course. so Dr. Scarlett gets it. Okay, cool. um Dr. Scarlett understands disability. ah They have another great book called Superhero Therapy, which they actually wrote.
01:04:50
Speaker
um So there's two copies of it. There's superhero therapy, the mind mindfulness to help teenagers. um And then there's superhero therapy for anxiety and trauma.
01:05:01
Speaker
ah Both are great. okay one is a little the one One is a little bit more accessible than the other. um Dr. Scarlett actually wrote superhero therapy, the first one, um for combat veterans ah wow who are physically disabled. Yeah.
01:05:17
Speaker
um so so and and helped them through that process the last version of supertherap hero therapy oh sorry the last copy of dr scarlet that i'm going to talk about and this this is super uh super women therapy for women battling anxiety and depression very cool um and super women is great for um women and non-binary folks um I highly, highly, highly recommend it. very ah It shouldn't be this way. And super women are both available on audio.
01:05:51
Speaker
Oh, awesome. um And, and if you, if, if the commitment of a longer book is hard, start with, it shouldn't be this way and see if it's for you. Got it.
01:06:03
Speaker
Okay. That makes sense. um I'll make sure that's like highlighted and I'll put a start here in the, in the show notes for everyone. And I can't I can't talk enough about how much I love Dr. Scarlett's work.
01:06:15
Speaker
But yeah, we sidetracked going back to behavior brain. So behavior brain is taking the act concepts and simplifying them to the point that you can use it with anyone.
01:06:30
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. Speaking, non-speaking, yeah verbal, non-verbal. um And it it utilizes ah the polyvagal theory. Okay.
01:06:41
Speaker
If you have a very young child or a non-speaking person who does not read, then it's going to be more your modeling for them over and over and over. Yes. And you're using the language around them.
01:06:53
Speaker
Yeah. um And because I'm not the sort of person who likes to to keep things back, I'm to tell you of what behavior brain is. Even before I publish the book, because, because I want the information out there. When I publish this book, that's going to be, I'm going to, I'm going to publish it for as inexpensive as I can, because I want this to be accessible.
01:07:14
Speaker
um So we're going to start with the metaphor, the metaphor. It has to do with our brain. And this is where polyvagal comes in, right? Our brain is an essential part of our body. It's kind of the command center of our body.
01:07:29
Speaker
And our brain has three big areas. And if you look at the brain from the side, you see the green zone, which is that forefront, the blue zone, which is kind of that middle part and the red zone. So there's about polyvagal theory.
01:07:41
Speaker
So our green zone is our problem solving zone. Yes. and our And our blue zone can sometimes be problem solving too, but it's mostly green zone.
01:07:53
Speaker
And our blue zone and red zone tends to be more our survival mode brain. And when we're in our problem solving zone of our brain, we can break that into two key parts.
01:08:13
Speaker
um This is where I use the the the visual for left brain, right brain. yeah Just so people know, left brain, right brain has been debunked.
01:08:26
Speaker
um Or rather, or rather the research around it has, it doesn't necessarily have, hasn't been debunked. It's, it's the idea that, well, you're, you're either left brains and you're logical or you're right brain and you're artistic.
01:08:38
Speaker
That, that part's not true. Okay. yeah Yeah. Like your language, where this applies is language centers tends to be in the left brain for most people, right which is important for surgery if you're doing brain surgery, but some people it's in the right brain.
01:08:52
Speaker
Like maybe in Gestalt language processors. Or even better, we could just look at Gestalt language processing as just another way of building relational connections with communication. i mean, I've been saying Gestalt is a way of thinking that specific speech process. However, um i just finished listening. Marge is coming on the podcast and I just finished listening to one of our talks and she talks very specifically. I think I told Mary this this morning.
01:09:21
Speaker
about when kids get into stage three of gestalt language processing. She explains it as language moving from the right side of the brain to the left side of the brain. She's like, because people people will freak out because their kids will get quieter because suddenly they're not like, maybe like they're not singing their songs anymore or doing X, Y, Z. And she's like, they've just started to acknowledge single words as like units of meaning.
01:09:42
Speaker
And so they just sort of like, and there's just been a switch. And how do think about it? She's like, it's all it is. It's all it the the Most behavior analysts, when they're resistant to, and and speech therapists too, are when they're resistant to gestalt language processing, it's because they they get stuck.
01:09:58
Speaker
Rigidity. There's a lot of that. i I'm happy you said it and I If I fully anticipate somebody will probably report me to the BACB and be like, he's pushing pseudoscience. And um what my response is going to be, do it.
01:10:13
Speaker
Please do. Yeah. Do it. Sure. Fine. Like, go ahead and go ahead and flag with the BACB that you're, that you're, you're frivolously reporting people for, for, for your rigidity.
01:10:25
Speaker
um But, but no, ah gestalt language processing. it So the behavior is, I don't know the, the the speech language pathology versions of this.
01:10:36
Speaker
I should be better at it because I tried being good at translating back and forth, but, The behavior is is man's, which are demands, commands, requests, tax, which are labeling what's happening in the environment, echoics, which is echoing and introverbals, which is back and forth.
01:10:52
Speaker
There's also subcategories like autoclitics that are modifiers and and other little little pieces there. But the biggest thing is that like those those big four behaviors. Gestalt language processing isn't saying that they aren't manding. They're saying they've they've paired the connection of the gestalt full phrase yeah as a mand.
01:11:14
Speaker
Yes. And they've paired the gestalt full frame as a tact. Mm-hmm. So so it's it's not saying that the radicalist behaviorist or speech pathologist approach is wrong.
01:11:27
Speaker
It's saying, hey, the thing that you thought was just single words could be full phrases. Yes. and and And the thing that you thought, like, I think my biggest thing was like, if we had not found the meaning in my son's scripting, he would still have no language.
01:11:45
Speaker
Period. End story. It was the easiest place to start. Yeah. but because Because behavior goes where reinforcement flows. And if we if we respond to the communication, that is a naturalistic reinforcer. Yes.
01:11:58
Speaker
Yes. And, and ah people get all stuck on intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. And my response is ah parquet no last dose. Yeah.
01:12:10
Speaker
Why, why not both? yeah like both yeah like yeah the External stimuli and internal stimuli both matter. We can transfer stimulus control. That's a behavior analytic concept from, from,
01:12:23
Speaker
extrinsic motivation to intrinsic motivation. And we can acknowledge that sometimes people do stuff because they want something. Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with both. Yeah. There's, there's people who are like, I never use food when I work with kids.
01:12:38
Speaker
And my response is, Oh yeah, I use food all the time. The difference is how I use it. Yeah. yeah Like I'll walk in and be like, Hey, you want a snack?
01:12:49
Speaker
Let's sit down and pop some popcorn and enjoy some popcorn together. and And like, we'll just enjoy popcorn just because, yeah because rapport matters. yeah and and then shared experience and like And then sometimes like if a kid's like, I really want to work for some M&Ms, I'll be like, sure.
01:13:06
Speaker
Like, okay. But, but like, like it's, it's, it's not every single time because there's sometimes I'm going to but walk in and I'm going to be like, you were like, really like M&Ms. Here's some M&Ms just because.
01:13:18
Speaker
Right. Because we want to build a healthy relationship with food. Like um to, to quote um Liam, the plant slant on, on Instagram and, ah and to quote Scotty from Scotty fit also on Instagram and and TikTok and all that.
01:13:37
Speaker
um Guilt is not an ingredient. There's no such thing as guilt-free food. It's, it's calories. Yeah. That's it. There's no guilt.
01:13:49
Speaker
Go to therapy if you have guilt related to food. Okay, so back to ah back to behavior brain. Okay, so... Okay, that's fine. um Okay, so ah if you imagine your brain...
01:14:04
Speaker
having two hemispheres like the left brain, right brain, but we're not going to worry about left brain, right brain. Uh, the way I phrase it in my book is imagine you, you're upstir you have. So your upstairs brain is what I call it is your problem solving brain has two rooms.
01:14:19
Speaker
One of those rooms is the sensing, engaging and creating side. Remember, this is a metaphor. This is not a hard thing, right? Um, so that's what we call the sex side S E C.
01:14:32
Speaker
And the other side is the solving, understanding, and puzzling side, or the sub side. This is going to make a second does it make sense in just a second. When both sides are working together, you're in flexibility mode.
01:14:47
Speaker
Got it. Right? You're problem solving. But when different sides are shut down and we get stuck, we drop down into survival mode. OK, so one or both sides get shut down.
01:14:59
Speaker
So this is why we need tools to open up the rooms so we can be flexible because flexible engagement is what we're going for. In act circles, they call it psychological flexibility.
01:15:12
Speaker
That's psychobabbling. I like to say flexible engagement. because flexibly engaging with your environment. So this is where second SUP comes in, because I promise the reason why I made the acronym was not to add more acronyms. It was because this makes sense, I promise.
01:15:27
Speaker
When you get stuck, you can take a SEC to figure out what SUP.
01:15:35
Speaker
So you get into the SEC room, the solve ah the the the Sensing, Engaging, and Creating room. And then you get into the solving, understanding, and puzzling room. Now, this is written from the perspective of the behavior analytic approach.
01:15:50
Speaker
um
01:15:52
Speaker
This is not written from the perspective of the talk therapy approach. i ah So when I point this out, I'm pointing this out so that people understand that this is one way of approaching therapy.
01:16:08
Speaker
but that the talk therapist approach would be you figure out what's up when you're stuck, you figure out what's up and then you take a sec. Okay, cool. um So you, the talk therapist slash therapy approaches, you figure out what's up and then you take a sec.
01:16:26
Speaker
um When I teach children this approach, the behavior brain approach, I always, because I'm not a talk therapist, I always approach from the take a sec to figure out what's up. But because that this is all based on relational frame theory, relational frame theories is that the the relational frameworks we create, our brains are problem solving machines.
01:16:51
Speaker
We can problem solve. The reason why act is needed is sometimes we problem ourselves ourselves of into a corner. Right. So it's giving us strategies to get out of that corner. Right.
01:17:02
Speaker
um So we make relational connections and and we learn spontaneously because we're humans are amazing. Right. Right. So I teach, take a sec to figure out what's up.
01:17:14
Speaker
But I've only had one learner I've used this approach with who did not know. figure out on their own how to figure out what's up and then take a sec. So they reached in their own therapy.
01:17:26
Speaker
Like I didn't have to go into it with them because they did it. um And it was actually kind of funny because one of these kids was also working with a talk therapist and and the talk therapist reached out to me and like, what did you do?
01:17:39
Speaker
That's funny. There was a breakthrough and and this kid said that you did something. What did you do? And I taught them this and they were like, oh my God, this is genius. Yeah, totally.
01:17:53
Speaker
We cut that episode off kind of mid-thought, but like I said, there's a part four coming really, really soon. um We talked about a lot in the episode, so all of the references and books and articles that Brian was discussing will be linked in the show notes.
01:18:08
Speaker
um So please feel free to check those out. If you have additional questions, hit us up on DMs on Instagram or email. We'll be happy to try and get those answered and look out for part four.
01:18:19
Speaker
Additionally, for those of you who are in the NJ, New York tri-state area. What are we calling that these days? um Our camps for summer are up. And also a little announcement on the website about something we're working on for fall. So be sure to sure to check that out if you are in Montclair and are technically of the homeschooling, hybrid schooling, unschooling variety. Please take a look because we're working on something really special that we would love to have additional people be part of.
01:18:47
Speaker
so yeah So yeah, check us out and we will see you next week.