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Episode 4: Building Confidence in Inclusive Environments
91 Plays1 month ago
In this episode, we sit down with Claudine Mossberg, founder of The Outdoor Play Connection, to explore how needs-based approaches can foster truly inclusive spaces for children of all abilities. Claudine shares her inspiring journey in creating environments where every child feels seen, supported, and empowered to thrive. Together, we discuss the importance of rethinking traditional play structures, understanding individual needs, and designing inclusive opportunities that foster connection, growth and true belonging. Whether you’re a parent, educator, or advocate, this episode offers valuable insights into building a world where all kids can play, learn, and belong.
https://www.outdoorplayconnection.com/
Instagram: @OutdoorPlayConnection
Other References:
The Coddling of the American Mind
Please note: This was my personal reference, not Claudines.
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Transcript
Individualized Parenting and Communication
00:00:04
Speaker
In general, I think, and also as a mother, I've really just focused on treating my kids in as humans and seeing them as individuals and having their own needs and giving them the ability to communicate that.
00:00:22
Speaker
Um, like allowing that right. And not seeing like all kids need a certain thing. So I would say the the foundation of really everything I do and all my groups and working with kids is really just allowing them to be who they are. Welcome to the diverge podcast, inclusive of autistic and other neurodivergent voices. We exist to bridge the gap between specialized knowledge and everyday parenting.
00:00:46
Speaker
We are on a mission to bring together the most forward-thinking experts who are deep in the trenches, championing neuroaffirming and developmentally-based approaches to therapy, to education, and life. Designed for parents, educators, friends, and allies, conversation by conversation, insight by insight, we are building community and making space for all kinds of minds.
00:01:11
Speaker
Hi, everyone. I am so excited for
Introducing Claudine Mossberg and Outdoor Play Connection
00:01:14
Speaker
today's episode. We are chatting with Claudine Mossberg of the Outdoor Play Connection. I met Claudine a little over a year ago when I was desperately seeking some inclusive activities for my son. When it comes to neuroaffirming spaces, therapies, and activities, I have one rule that I have learned the hard way. The person in charge should be teaching me something about what it means to make space.
00:01:37
Speaker
Claudine and the team at Outdoor Play Connection are absolutely no exception. They have taught me so much about what inclusion and partnership really means. I am so excited to share this episode with you. um Claudine talks a lot about her child-led needs-based approach to managing these classes, and what is so amazing and pops up again and again and again throughout the episode.
00:02:02
Speaker
is because it it is a needs-focused environment. It works for kids of all abilities and it works beautifully for kids of all abilities, creating places where neurodivergent kids like mine aren't just focused on necessarily fitting into the routines of the classroom, but instead really belonging to the community that's been created.
00:02:23
Speaker
around that classroom. So, so excited to jump into this episode. um And I can't wait for you guys to hear all the stories and hopefully check out Outdoor Play Connection for yourself. So, let's get into it.
00:02:39
Speaker
Okay, welcome to the Diversh podcast. Today I have Claudine Mossberg. um She is an outdoor educator and founder of the Outdoor Play Connection. um I met her a little over a year ago when I desperately needed something for my newly homeschooled son um to do during the day. And he likes to move. um And so I've been attending her program for a while now and it is one of our favorite times of the week. So I will let Claudine um introduce herself and talk a little bit about her background. Thank you so much for having me, Kristy. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you. um Like you said, it's been so great to get to know you and your family over the years.
00:03:20
Speaker
and I'm really just excited to share more with others. um Just to give you a background of kind of how I got started, um when my kids were younger, we moved from New York City to New Jersey and I was really nervous about leaving the big city and coming to the suburbs.
Community Engagement and Outdoor Activities
00:03:37
Speaker
and I was like, how am I going to meet people? We were homeschooling and I was just really nervous about leaving a place with you know so many people to coming to the suburbs. so I reached out um when I got here to people just to do something that I enjoyed doing and basically put out on back then a Yahoo! listserv saying who wants to come and join me outdoors and the local reservation and I had over 30 families show up that day and it had just rained so we had puddles and the kids were running around jumping in the puddles and the Parents were just talking about how great it was to be there, to be together, to be outdoors. And they kept saying they wanted to do it. Can you do this more? Can you do it more frequently? And I was like, well, I'm only one person. And so I saw the demand. I kind of saw the need for it. And I couldn't believe how if you just invite people, they would show up outdoors.
00:04:36
Speaker
So I just started helping other moms figure out how to create groups for themselves to have time outdoors with their community. And I built that over a few years and then um I took some time off, had another baby, then the pandemic happened. And I started hearing that need to get outdoors again. And a lot of people were saying, can you please do the thing you do and help us build community outdoors? And I sat with it for a while and was like, yeah, it's time. I need to do that. So I set out basically to create outdoor communities for children and their parents and for families to learn how to be outdoors again and how to build community through outdoor play.
00:05:19
Speaker
And my children really have inspired this whole journey and how my oldest, who was then four is now 14, how she would just kind of enter a space and indoors in any classes we went to and wouldn't really interact that much. But when we went to this outdoor class back in Brooklyn,
00:05:40
Speaker
ah She engaged immediately, immediately with the teachers, immediately through everything around her. There was no like six weeks of observing before she participated. And I was like, what is going on? And it really inspired my track in learning more about being outdoors and how that impacts um our ourselves as adults, but also children in their learning. One of the questions I asked to kind of kick things off is, do you have sort of a grounding philosophy when it comes to kids?
Child-Led Environments and Neurodiversity
00:06:10
Speaker
In general, I think, and also as a mother, I've really just focused on treating my kids in as humans and seeing them as individuals and having their own needs and giving them the ability to communicate that.
00:06:29
Speaker
um like allowing that right and not seeing like all kids need a certain thing. So I would say the the foundation of really everything I do and all my groups and working with kids is really just allowing them to be who they are um and and enjoying the fact that I can meet them there and I've learned so much from so many children um just by having that basic philosophy.
00:06:50
Speaker
That's so cool and so specific to our experience in your program. I haven't done a lot of backstory on here yet, but for our listeners, I have a son who's autistic. He's about seven now. um We were in a program for age three, age four, went into kindergarten, and it was one part a disaster because of system some systemic issues, and then another part where I just took a step back and was like, this is not what I want for you.
00:07:20
Speaker
um And the thing that blew my mind when I walked into outdoor play connection for the first time, well, there were a couple of things. But one is for the first time, it was so easy to see where my kid was compared to typical kids.
00:07:34
Speaker
um And when you remove sort of all the demands of the classroom and all of these things, he's so much more capable than people were giving him credit for. um But I needed that sort of like child-led environment to figure that out. um And then one of my favorite in terms of meeting needs is ah most of my parenting experience has been deep in the special needs world, which is a very hyper-vigilant space. um I am the chillest among chill moms of my friends.
00:08:04
Speaker
school. They think I'm like super chill. And I remember walking in and Porter kind of like walked away from the group at one point. And I was like on top of it ready to go. And you look to me and you're like, well, if you follow him, if you don't follow him, if he doesn't see it, will he come back? And I was like, who are you?
00:08:25
Speaker
I've literally been in groups where because there was this label of neurodivergence, and every time a kid walks away from something, it's considered eloping, where like five people would have been on top of him, even though they were his kid, and all well intended. ah But what's so beautiful about that is we did kind of learn that he'll come back. And he has, you know, sort of learned a lot really, he's much better at outdoor boundaries now than he ever was prior, because he has the chance to be.
00:08:52
Speaker
And he has the models. So it's been a really unique experience seeing how these programs work for all kids um and how the same philosophy stretches across both. So it's a fun story. And it really can. yeah and And I ask that to all parents. It's not a question that I asked.
00:09:11
Speaker
specifically just because of your kid. I have plenty of kids that come and I really believe they all have their own boundary. And I've had another parent that came in and when they first started their son,
00:09:24
Speaker
they they would constantly not be in the central part of the classroom. And when I say classroom, just to give a visual for people listening, like there are no walls. We meet in the forest, it is you know a reservation, but is an area that kind of has a natural boundary to it. In the springtime, it kind of has the greenery that is growing and there's like more dirt in some areas. So it's kind of a visual boundary that we talk about with the kids. And I really feel that everybody has their own comfort in their distance and what they're willing to do. And some kids will stay very central and stay very close to the parents or teachers or guides and someone to explore more. And when this parent came and her son would just, he would literally leave and go right outside the boundary of the classroom and but he would and she would follow him. And I was like, what if you don't follow him? Very similar to what I said to you. And she's like, I never thought of that. Yeah. And we allowed him to walk. And I was like, when you follow him, there's a boundary, whether it's 100 feet or 1000 feet, when you walk towards them, you're now expanding the boundary further. So what they're comfortable with is what they're comfortable with.
00:10:31
Speaker
I think it's also flipping it to to us and saying, what are you comfortable with? And allowing that child to say, well, hey, this is when I'm not comfortable. And like you can allow them to explore that boundary and experience that boundary in a safe way where you can still be present, but we don't need to make it a problem.
00:10:54
Speaker
Right. Well, and that's what's been so interesting about, you know, nature school as a whole. And there are, I will acknowledge there are a variety of different um support needs when you see neurodivergence kind of out in the forest. And my son technically like lives on the higher side of that comparatively ah to some of the kids in class. ah But it gave me the power to observe him in ways I would have never been able to figure out in a store or, you know, trying to get him to sit at a desk or different things like that. And a lot of what I learned from that experience over time is he actually, he needs to move a lot, which I knew before I got there, but he also kind of likes to pace. And so sometimes what looks like I don't want to be in a line right now because I just don't want to be in a line is actually a sensory thing.
00:11:46
Speaker
that I didn't fully understand until I realized it's like, oh, you need your space. You don't like people kind of hovering over you. But until I established that trust and got to see like, oh, you're not going to run away. Like you can have some, you understand what's going on and it's not just- In general, most humans don't want to be lost in the woods. Just saying.
00:12:07
Speaker
Well, and us are unless unless a kid on the spectrum and people know this is really dysregulated, like you're not there's still a safety, you know, perception, at least in my case. um So that's like just so cool. um And then the other thing that I think is really interesting for kids who are like a little lower support needs is I've just watched kids who would never be able to sort of sit and attend, and I'm using a lot of special education language. I don't even like it coming out of my mouth, but um sit in and attend, for lack of a better word, to anything that looks like a classroom, because there's so much just bad blood, for lack of a better phrase. um And they can't do like that part. There's a book being read. But if you ask them to build a bridge for to get some people across the water, like they're the first people to do something that's very helping. And it's interesting to see those leadership skills kind of come out.
00:13:00
Speaker
and be rewarded. like There's not this like focus on what you can't do, it's about what you can't do. I think that's one of the great things I love about you know our programming is based on an emergent curriculum. And that really does mean that we're focusing on what the kids are interested in and what the kids needs are. And therefore we can provide and create a situation in an environment for them to interact in a way that is best for them, for them to get the most out of it. So the way one child may need to interact with six
00:13:32
Speaker
Might be completely different on how a child needs it another child does and where one might need to stick to bang on things another one might need to stick to build things and they're they're still going to to get so much out of that activity but if we tell everyone hey you all need to now build with the sticks.
00:13:49
Speaker
and that one child doesn't really understand or doesn't have that desire, they're not going to get as much out of it. We get the most out of our learning when we're interested. yes And so focusing on what their interests are, neurodivergent or not, like they still have interests, right? And they're still going to tell us what they are if we are listening. And so taking the approach of really being an observer as a guide in our classes. And we are observing the kids and really seeing what is helping them thrive and what they're really interested in.
Creative Learning in Nature
00:14:20
Speaker
They're going to get higher level learning out of what they're interacting with in the forest and giving them that space to interact in the way that they need, whether it's like you said, walking away when they need to walk away or being in the space that they can step away from whatever project they're doing and not have to worry about being told to come back and sit in your space. I mean, you interrupt that process of thought.
00:14:43
Speaker
when those things happen. And so if you think of how the mind might be getting very deep into whatever they're creating or where they're thinking and when you're in nature, you're you're in like such an amazing space that allows your brain to be creative, allows your brain to be calm and allows those thoughts to happen. And if we're constantly interrupting it, we're we're not allowing that um that thought process to continue to allow that learning to blossom.
00:15:10
Speaker
and that learning will slowly build on itself to create whatever the next stage is in their development or their learning or their curiosity, which will then bring them to the next space that they um can naturally be in.
00:15:25
Speaker
And it's interesting that you said development because that's something I'm a big fan of um as it relates to ah to therapy, right? There's like sort of two philosophies. Everything is behavior. And if I can just tweak the behavior, we're all good. um And that is a huge over simplification for anyone who's listening. knowledge it, but very behavioral based versus developmentally. And I think the hard thing to understand about developmentally based philosophies is that it requires you to go backwards sometimes with kids who are missing things, but that has to be okay. What's the last place you were successful? And let's nurture that and sort of build confidence there and so and keep moving forward and let you sort of have your timeline, which comes up a lot in these conversations.
00:16:09
Speaker
Um, but that's a hard, it's a hard thing to explain in a world where everyone is so focused on. Here's your standards. Here's your milestones. Like this is what it needs to look like. And again, all those things exist for a reason. I don't want to, you know, um, diminish the power of those things and why they exist in the first place. But it is really refreshing to see a space where typical kids and neurotypical kids can thrive sort of under the same philosophies.
00:16:37
Speaker
And I think also like there are people who can thrive in those other philosophies, right? And that's great, but it's, I don't think as humans that we're meant to all thrive in the same situation. And when we allow that um space to allow the children to really be themselves, they can be given the ability to show what it is that they need for that growth um and for them to achieve you know different milestones.
00:17:07
Speaker
And not everybody will achieve them in the same way or at the same time. And I think that's the beauty of a of giving the children that space. You know, our programs allow that space where if we're reading a book, we don't force everybody to sit down and listen to a book. And I know that there are kids who need to go sit on the rock.
00:17:25
Speaker
and like move around on the rock so they can hear the book. yeah Some kids need to sit down and be still, and some kids need to sit and have a snack, and some kids need to just move around or just stand, because we're all different. I mean i i process information differently then than my kids or other people. right So like when we start seeing each other as humans, and with as individuals, we can actually start seeing what can i what can help the children help us actually succeed in the things that we're trying to succeed in and not have it like everybody can succeed in all those things, but in their own way. Right. And I've seen so many kids come from an environment that wasn't working for them and they come to our classes and they're able to just be in a space. And even if it's they're like, they need six months to just be in the space.
00:18:14
Speaker
ah they will make a giant leap because they were given six months to just be in the space the way they needed to be. And then all of a sudden they start interacting differently because that's when they're ready. Yes. Right. So the child who might watch everyone paint may start painting in nine months because now they're ready. Maybe they were doing other things. They were building and they're creating or whatever it was, even social interactions. I've seen kids go from not really sure, you know, socializing is hard.
00:18:45
Speaker
Yes, it's just hard. Let's just be real. like Even as adults, like great socializing is hard. And we expect so much from children. We expect so much from them. So the child who was not really confident in socializing or so speaking up or answering questions is allowed to not want to in our classes.
00:19:04
Speaker
right We are not calling on them and making them have that experience, but they can observe it. And they're always given the opportunity to participate if they want to. And I've seen children who play individually more so. And when they're given the space to not be forced into situations, they actually join them much easier.
00:19:24
Speaker
and they it It's just such a beautiful thing to see when it's their choice and then they flourish in it. They find the way that they want to interact with the play. right They might not might not want to make the mud pie, but they want to produce the water for the mud pie. but So they would rather walk with the bucket and go get the water and bring it to the group to make them on pies. And that's such a community community village kind of thought process of like, everybody needs to do a part, but it doesn't always need to be the same part. Yes. And leaving space for kids, I think what I see often is who do think differently.
00:20:03
Speaker
ah Because one of the biggest learnings I've seen in the last you know year and a half with my son is he doesn't look at anything in a straightforward way. If he is in the mood and walking through the forest and he's he's got the bug, like a rock becomes a gingerbread man and a stick becomes reindeer, like whatever he's feeling.
00:20:24
Speaker
and so Number one, he doesn't like to be intentionally confined to anything, any sort of thought process of play. But there's a lot of intelligence there and a lot happening that gets missed. If I were to try to be like, oh, nope, do the project that everybody else is doing or i miss so much about who he is. ah And so it's really fun to be in that space and watch those things happen.
00:20:46
Speaker
The other thing that I think is really cool is just in terms of being a parent and being in that space, you're an outdoor educator and you know how to move kids through these environments. But I feel like sometimes, especially for the parent attended classes, it teaches me how to move kids through environments as well. And I've seen it happen for other parents. um So can you talk a little bit about that?
00:21:08
Speaker
I absolutely love having parents in class. it's it's I love being a partner with parents because I really feel um it's such an honor for parents to trust me with their kids. I absolutely love what I do. um I love entering their world. And to really be able to partner with the parent, I think it's just so it's so wonderful because it just really it's so beneficial to everybody involved. and I have a lot of parents that show up and they Sometimes they have been outdoors. They were outdoorsy before they had kids. Sometimes they show up and they have never been outdoors before, ever. And it's really, I meet them where they are and see, you know, what they're thinking. And a lot of what I find, a consistency that I do find at different levels, is often giving permission to parents
00:21:56
Speaker
to um not feel the pressure of class. So they come to class and i I verbally will say, it is okay if your child does not want to participate. I'm not offended.
00:22:10
Speaker
yeah Right. I'm happy you're here. And if they don't want to listen to me read a book, that is fine with me. They need the permission from me that it's okay so that they can relax because society has a so much, like our child has to perform for the thing that they're coming to. Right. And I'm not saying that that like, there are classes and situations where that is true. Right. There are safety concerns and such, but we have the ability where it's like, that's okay. They can be in this space.
00:22:39
Speaker
and not have to sit a certain way um and allowing the parent to kind of let go of feeling that pressure. And when you let go of that pressure, you can then learn and how be how to be an observer of your child. And I think that can be hard to do in our society with the speed of how life goes these days. Agreed. To really just give parents the permission to come and just observe and be and not worry about correcting and see what their child is doing. And I have explained to parents, they say, how do you know all these things? And I'm like, honestly, like i've I am an outdoor educator. I am certified. I've taken a lot of classes. But where a lot of my knowledge base has come from is children asking me questions and me observing what they're interested in. And that has increased my like knowledge even more
00:23:30
Speaker
than any trainings because I've been able to see what they're actually interested in and we can learn together. And there's just something magical when you can watch things through a child's eyes. And like you said, see the stick in a different way, right? So when I'm handing them paper and a pencil and we're doing shadow tracing, shadow tracing is a prompt. Shadow tracing is let's see, let's observe the shadows.
00:23:55
Speaker
Now, the way I might trace a shadow might be totally different than how a child might choose and trace a shadow, but I need to let that parent know however your child interacts with the shadow, the paper, and the pencil is correct. Yes.
00:24:11
Speaker
Right. And so a lot of it is working with the parents in giving them that permission and being a partner with them and realizing that we can trust them.
Risk-Taking and Independence in Children
00:24:20
Speaker
A lot of things come from our own fears. And I will often ask, I'll say, you know, when a child is climbing or going further outside of where the whole group is, but still inside the classroom, but maybe further on the outside border, I will ask them and say, what are you feeling right now? What is the fear you're having right now?
00:24:41
Speaker
No one ever asks that in certain spaces. Because it's important to recognize, and even as an educator I have to ask myself. you know and and but I'm a mother of three kids. My kids are now 14, 12, and 6.
00:24:57
Speaker
And when I started doing programs, I only had two kids. And so I think it's important to ask ourselves, ah what is coming up for us before a we put it out there for the kids, right? And trust if your child is trusting themselves to climb that log, let them trust themselves. yeah Because if we start interrupting that process,
00:25:20
Speaker
How can they trust themselves? right We can be there and give them a safe environment. We can be nearby. We can point out hazards. We can help them observe things so that they can make choices and still involve in risky play, but have the ability to assess the risk that they want to take.
00:25:40
Speaker
And this can get very interesting because, you know, with nora divergence, some kids might not have the same risk assessment. ah Agreed. Yeah. Right. Because people will say, well, my child won't. And I'm like, okay, so let's help them see that we can still be a partner in their process of figuring that out. Right. Yes. And still allowing them to experience it.
00:26:01
Speaker
Correct. In a safe way, right? And so allowing parents to say, okay, you know I want to hold their hand. And I'm like, why are you holding their hand? Because they were climbing that log five minutes ago without you, no problem. So allowing them to actually continue to climb and not hold their hand actually lets them feel where their body is and lets them feel where their balance is and will naturally develop the core muscles, the muscle memory, the idea of like, this doesn't feel sturdy. I'm going to get down lower and I'm going to climb this log down lower. They need to feel all of that. And if you're holding their hand, they don't get to feel that. yeah So we actually have a rule and in our parent handbook that we don't allow parents to hold their hand. If they can't get up there and be up there on their own, they should not be there.
00:26:46
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, that's a really good tool too. so And this gives a sense of to parents when I explain that to them, they understand then that their child is going to do the things that are good for them. Now, if a child does have a situation where they do need some guidance, then that's where the partnership is so important because then I learned from the parent things that are happening at home and that maybe they're challenged with. Also, I can go to the parent and say, what works at home?
00:27:11
Speaker
Right? Because sometimes they'll come in the forest and some kids are not, they're not always sure. Right? They're not sure how to make their sense. There's a lot of sensory going on in the forest. Right. And kids, kids can regulate in the forest, but they can be dysregulated in the forest too. So there's, it's not like you come to the forest and like, there's no dysregulation happening. That is all that' not reality. Right. So, but it does allow a different space to manage dysregulation.
00:27:39
Speaker
But partnering with the parent allows me to say, what does work for your child at home? And it's very interesting when I ask this to parents, because they kind of look at me like nobody's ever asked from that before. yes but And I'm like, no, really, they because they want to know what did my child do that was wrong.
00:27:53
Speaker
I'm so sorry, and I'm like, you don't need to apologize for your child ever to me. I was like, I want to learn more so we can help them figure this out. Because they're just trying to figure out how they want to interact with this, right? yeah And then so when I find out like, oh, well, when I find when they have, you know, when you're closer to them and quieter, this works. Some kids might need a a touch on the shoulder. Some kids do not want to be touched at all, right? So understanding what does work for them helps us allow them to find regulation in the forest. you know and Sometimes it's just a matter of like the right food available for lunch yeah because they feel more comfortable eating a specific food outdoors yeah because it's easier to eat outdoors. Things people don't think. Maybe soup is not the best thing to bring, even though you can bring it in a container with a spoon. Your child may just prefer something that is not soup. Yes. That's so funny. It's so true. Yeah, so two things I kind of wanted to go back to and you were talking about risk assessment. I was looking for the author's name and I don't have it right now, um but there's a book that just came out called The Anxious Generation and it's written by a person, I have not read it, but it's written by a person who wrote a book
00:29:07
Speaker
right but around the time Porter was born, maybe a little earlier, um called The Coddling of the American Mind. And it talked a lot about kids and anxiety. And what was really interesting in that book is it sort of attributed anxiety, the rise in anxiety to two things.
00:29:24
Speaker
One was the digital world, which we can put that I think the new book just talks about that, I'm not sure. ah But the other that was really interesting was the intense amount of supervision kids have today that they didn't have in the past.
00:29:40
Speaker
And the author talks about, you know, when we were kids and boys, like we used to get lost for hours at a time and do things that were probably not super safe. But it taught us how to manage our fear threshold. And so one of the challenges I find of being both a you a divergent parent, um but also just a millennial parent is like, okay, how do we maintain safety, but still understand that our kids need physical risk. And so where's the line, where's kind of the balance? ah Because it's so important for their mental health and for them to be able to manage anxiety. um And it, anxiety is such a part big part of neurodivergence as well.
00:30:24
Speaker
absolutely yeah about Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's it does stem to the fact that a lot of things I was just talking about in allowing the child to have the experience. So if we're constantly not allowing them to climb the thing that we're not sure if they can climb, if we're constantly holding their hand or interacting and interrupting the process of the risk assessment, they don't have that synopsis, like the the the neurology behind it, right? Because when you have these experiences, they become part of you, right? Like all those things that we did unsupervised, right? We learned a lot.
00:31:08
Speaker
um Now, the kids in our classes are not unsupervised. No. and They're also not interrupted. Not interrupted. I like that. The word ends interrupted over unsupervised. Good call-ups. Yes. They're not interrupted. We're still there. um I mean, I run classes for teens, too.
00:31:24
Speaker
Yeah. And it's kind of, it's, we're literally there just to make sure that decisions don't go too far, you know? Yeah. um Because you know what, in a group of teens, you would think, um like, what do they need or whatever, right? Or like, what,
00:31:40
Speaker
When we're with them, I have to tell you this story because the most recent teen hike that we had was so incredible. right And teens, I feel like they are put into a position now where it's like they have to grow up so fast and they have to have all these responsibilities. yeah And I provide this space for them once a month for them to come and hike and just be socialized, talk to each other. We do some carving skills, you know we do some games, but we were doing on our hike and they saw this big hill that they remembered from when they were five and six, seven years old, and they remember climbing up it, because two or five, like six-year-old, like that's more fun than going up the path that would be easier to walk on, right? So the parents would walk the path, and the kids are trying to scramble up this, basically, a wall, right? And they remembered it. And I was telling them the story of when they were little and how they would constantly try to climb up, and it really didn't always happen. And they were like, we should try it. And they all dropped their backpack.
00:32:38
Speaker
And one after another, we're running up this hill and climbed all, and each and every one of them, like you could see the kids, there are all, there's 12 of them, they're standing there, three of them went up, and they're sitting there looking at each other, and they drop, another few dropped, and they ran up there. And before you know it, the whole class, the whole group, climbed up this huge hill, that's basically a wall, and got to the top, and the giggles, and the screaming, and the laughter, right? And then they had to get down. Yes.
00:33:06
Speaker
Right? And so they're sliding down the side and they had so much fun. and We did not interrupt them. We didn't tell them they shouldn't do it. We didn't tell them how to do it.
00:33:17
Speaker
why Why should we? right Let them figure it out. But the same goes for the kids who are younger. The same goes for a kid who's neurodivergent. It goes for all of us. like We should be able to have that experience to figure it out. Now, the kids who didn't want to slide down, they walked they they they walked across. They found a way to walk across where they could not slide down. right They were given the opportunity. They were observed. They were not controlled.
00:33:44
Speaker
sorry charles f And they were allowed to figure it out themselves, right? Now we're there, you know, we're available to make sure things don't go too far. Um, like we're not jumping off cliffs or anything, but that was a total safe experiment experiment for them to do. Then they came down, they all had a snack and then we continued our hike.
00:34:03
Speaker
i'm so happy And the same thing goes for all ages and we work with multi-ages. That's why I love multi-age groups love is because when you have that five-year-old with a 10-year-old and the 10-year-old is doing something that a 10-year-old can do and the five-year-old is like, I want to do that much. Yep.
00:34:19
Speaker
Right?
Mentorship and Group Dynamics
00:34:21
Speaker
First, what happens is that five-year-old is inspired and empowered. Be like, I want to do that. Now, if they can't get up on that log the way that 10-year-old can, they're going to keep trying. If you lift them up and put them up on that log, you've taken away the experience of them trying to physically do something and to have the perseverance to where maybe they have to wait six months when they grow another inch. And that day when they show up to that log,
00:34:48
Speaker
and they can climb up on that log by themselves because they've been trying week after week after week yeah and they make it.
00:34:57
Speaker
You can't give somebody that. That is something that they can give to themselves. And it's so important. And it is magical to observe and watch a child achieve something like that. And the older kids get to be mentors. They get to be leaders in that environment yeah where they can see younger kids wanting to do things they want to do. And that makes them feel good. yeah Right. And all we need to do is stay out of the way. Yep.
00:35:26
Speaker
um And it's so fun. This is such a fun conversation because one of the other podcasts I recorded um was with an occupational therapist, Dr. Deidre Azaparday. And one of the baseline things that you learn a lot about when you're dealing with autism is motor planning, right? The ability to want to do something in your brain and figure out how to make your body do it.
00:35:50
Speaker
um And a lot of but theories and people suggest that motor planning is is actually the biggest issue with autism. Deidre and I were talking, one of the things that she said is there's so many things that are done in school for these kids.
00:36:02
Speaker
that they will be engaged, they'll be focused, they'll want to pull you in, they'll be talking to you. She goes, all of that stuff is really hard for neurodivergent kids, especially with motor planning issues. She goes, and an adult will stop and correct the way they say something or correct the way they're doing something. She goes, so you're taking the exercise of planning from beginning to end and making their body do what it's supposed to do away from them. And that's the most therapeutic thing you can do.
00:36:30
Speaker
So it again, so interesting to hear it described from so many different angles, um, but so rightfully therapeutic as much as sitting in a clinic and being on a swing or working on four steps of a process. And I think it comes right back down to what we started with in just talking about how I'm looking at the child as an individual and as a human and I'm seeing them for who they are and what they need. Right.
00:36:56
Speaker
And i I still remember there was a time in class when we were walking as the group. And we do have a boundary of having everybody stand be like when we're hiking. We have a guide in the front and a guide in the back. right And so the guide in the back never leaves anyone behind, obviously. And the guide in the front is leading. We're checking for hazards. We're looking for things. And the kids know that you stay behind me right or you're walking with me if there's room.
00:37:22
Speaker
And, um, I know your son was walking ahead and one of the kids asked me and they said, well, why does he get sick? And I said, well, that's, that's what he needs right now. And I know he'll come back. And I remember your reaction to that where you were just like, wow. Yeah. And I think it's important that.
00:37:40
Speaker
the child that asked that question heard that answer. Yes. Because I think it's important that we get stuck in, well, everybody needs to do it this way. Everybody needs to stay behind you. And I explained it, I was like, well,
00:37:55
Speaker
If the whole class was in front of me, who's going to be checking and make sure there's and no hazards in leading the hike? Do you know where we're going? like like There's a lot behind that, so I have those conversations with them. i was like so But if he needs to be there and he knows to come back,
00:38:11
Speaker
That's fine. But not everybody needs that. Right. Right? Yes. Right? And i and i I love the fair word comes up, right? like Yeah. It's not fair. They get to do this. And I'm like, we'll define fair, right? it's I love the story that I was told once. This is not my story. um But I tell it to my kids often. and they And I say, well, fair means that everybody gets the same thing, right? So if you cut your finger, I'm going to give everybody a band-aid, right? So everybody come get your band-aid.
00:38:40
Speaker
like i don't need a band aid right but fair means you all get a band aid but i don't need a band aid i'm like right yeah so fair really is just looking at what everybody needs it's relative yep and i think it's important i'm like you understand that we all need to stay here right and you're capable you you want to do that I was like, and if this child needs to go ahead a little bit and then come back, yeah right? And he interacts with me that way, then that's what he needs. And that's what we're going to do. But that doesn't mean the whole class needs to be in front of me. Right. And it'll be different kids at different times. I'll have a kid run up and go ahead of me and then turn around and go back to the back, to the guide in the back. And that's fine. But I'm seeing each child in the class as an individual. And I know the kids who need to do that. And I know the kids who are like, yeah, I can just walk with the group and chat with my friends and hang out Yeah. And that's what you need and that's fine too. Right. And that's how we can have a synergy within the class and everybody's needs can be met met and everyone can have the experience that is best for them instead of trying to get everybody to behave in a certain way. Right. And I'll tell you, it's
00:39:50
Speaker
It's not always easy. I love talking about this and explaining to people how it works, but I think it's important to talk about it as a guide and as a leader, and as an educator. It's not always the easier answer.
00:40:02
Speaker
ah Agreed, as a parent. What we're doing is not easier. yeah I just think it's better for the child. I think it's better for the program. I think it's better for what I'm providing and I'm willing to do that work. I'm willing to talk to the child and help them understand and see that everybody has different needs and everybody doesn't need to be the same. right right I'm willing to have that conversation and allow that to happen so that you know maybe when that child needs something different, yeah they're going to know that that's going to be respected too.
00:40:32
Speaker
And I think those are the harder of conversations and the harder process of managing a group of 15 children when you're allowing that to happen. So I realized that often I'll talk about these things. They sound great in this and I want people to understand that it does take another level of focus and safety aspects of things. Like there are other things that we do to allow these things, right? ah there's There's a lot of, um processes that I have with my guides and conversations that we have so that we can give this space to the kids yeah and allow this openness to them. and What was so touching to me about that as a parent, and I've seen this over and over again, is in a traditional space, my son would have stuck out like a sore thumb. There's there's no scenario in which
00:41:26
Speaker
he wouldn't have been pathologized to some extent, also by his peers. And so it's like, so if you accommodate them, it becomes a big deal that they have like an accommodation because the kids don't understand accommodations. If you don't accommodate, it becomes a bit ah big battle because you're dealing with sensory issues and a whole bunch of things. And what was so amazing to me about that moment was you didn't describe it as, oh, he's like, you know, special needs, he has sensory, it was just, he needs to be a leader right now.
00:41:55
Speaker
And it was like that language for him is huge because it's something that drives him, even if he can't articulate it. I'm like, but then also for all of the kids in the class, it teaches, you know, that they, everyone has a right to be there and to have their needs met in whatever way. And there's so many conversations about inclusion, but it's hard to even broach it in certain systems as a parent because you know what it means. Like you're you your kid has a right to be there, but they're not going to get what they need. And this is just such a beautiful example of what it means.
00:42:25
Speaker
to get both. Right, and there was another time where he was upfront, and allowing him to be there, he was communicating. where we were in the trail and telling me things. yeah And I think that was one of the first times that he was communicating with me. yeah And it's like, I know that the breadcrumbs are happening. I know each little interaction are happening. And I think if you put yourself outside of it and you just wait patiently as an observer, like that moment when he was sharing with me about the trail and the marker and like all of that, that one little moment, I was like, yes.
00:43:03
Speaker
Like, yeah I felt so connected and I was like, it's, I know he hears me, but I was like, you really do hear. And it's like, that was so special. That was like, as an educator and being with the kids and and being with them for so long, when you have those magical moments, it's because, you know, I waited.
Inclusion and Flexible Programs
00:43:23
Speaker
ye you know And I gave that space and every child does deserve to be a leader. Every child does deserve to have that space. And i inclusion is another foundation where you know accessibility and inclusion is at the core of what we do. And I think it's really important because I don't want kids to feel like they are pointed out and I want them to feel comfortable. And I have kids who are like, I don't want to speak up. I don't want to answer the question. But they'll come talk to me privately. And that's great. That's still learning. You don't have to share it out to the whole group in order to have an answer or have a contribution to what we're doing. You can silently add the stick to the structure. And I think that's really important. And it teaches, it models the behavior
00:44:13
Speaker
to the children in the class, right? When the adults and the parents are modeling that behavior where everyone is given that equality in a sense of what they need. And I think inclusion doesn't mean everyone does the same thing. Right. Right. And so that aspect of things I think is really just a magical thing that we can give kids and doing it in the forest is like an extra bonus.
00:44:36
Speaker
Oh, I love the forest part. And, you know, and to your point about how it takes extra work, I do want to say for listeners, like, um those of us who have neurodivergent kids and want them in this spaces, we know you put in a lot of extra effort to do that, but also we're okay with the extra effort, right? Like I don't necessarily need it to be drop off today. It made me in a year, maybe in two years, like I don't need it to be a drop off program. So there are supports put in place that are very similar to those that happen in other spaces, one-to-ones, whatever that might be. But it still just looks and feels so different. And the energy of how those supports are implemented is just a game changer.
00:45:17
Speaker
Yeah, and I think um you know when I was talking about it, it takes extra work. It's more of allowing those boundaries to be different, right? it's Yeah. having a group of 15 kids with different needs and you know we have little touch points in our class classes where we you know we do a welcome circle. We have a snack and we have those transitions because I know that helps a lot of kids. Having those markers in the in the process of the three hours is really important. and I think I brought up the fact that it's
00:45:49
Speaker
I don't want people to think that providing that is just, it's easy peasy. Let's just do it. It's, it's not, you know, working with humans and working with kids and neurodivergencies, like you, you need to think about it in that sense. Right. And so it's more of like, I want people to understand like, we're doing this very intentionally.
00:46:09
Speaker
ah Yeah. who you know ah it's It's not by accident. right I want the children to have those experiences and I want them to have that positive experience. And so I'm willing to i'm willing to delay a hike for 15 minutes because that's what somebody needs. Right.
00:46:27
Speaker
And you're not and I think the demand across the board is so different in those instances, right? um And not not to, you know, criticize any institution, but think about like in the context of school, if you delay something for 15 minutes, you probably knock everybody else's schedules off.
00:46:43
Speaker
ah But also for 15 minutes you have to figure out how to get kids to wait in the line or sit or whatever that might be that's just like so less natural then hey everybody just play a little longer and we'll get going in a minute.
00:46:58
Speaker
Like it's just a very different. I mean, we've had the situation where like one of the other guide pulls out a book and he reads a book or they're focused on a plant that's growing. Like, look at this. Look at all these plants here. Like you could just do something else and allow whatever situation is happening to happen, you know, and.
00:47:17
Speaker
Whether it's emotions, whether it's not ready to leave or whatever it is, let like that's the part of like, we're human. yeah you know Transitions can be hard. yeah And ah you know being able to finish your thought or whatever process that they're in and giving them that space and respecting that space when all it really, it could even be five minutes.
00:47:36
Speaker
like also feeling that rhythm. yeah When the kids are together, you can we spend the first four to six weeks in class really observing the kids. The first two weeks is all of observing. We have very open-ended group projects that we do every single time so that the kids are familiar with them and we get to sense of kind of the dynamic of the group. But we spend a solid four to six weeks really getting to know the group. When are they hungry? When do they want to move? Because these things, that there they tend to happen together. right There's a natural rhythm when we get together. There's still that connection as humans. And so we're reading that so that we can help that happen. Now, if one day something is not going that way, we just change it because we can. I love the flexibility of that.
00:48:22
Speaker
Because you know what? There are days I wake up and I'm not feeling the same as yesterday. Yeah. And kids feel that way all the time. Yeah. And I think it's often that, you know, kids have to go through the motion and do the thing in the same way every day. And it's like, no, but no, like, it's Tuesday, and I'm not feeling that way. Yes. And that's, that's okay. No, right. And I was very big in our house. Yeah. And just imagine a world where that was allowed. Right.
00:48:47
Speaker
And just think of the mental health aspect of that too, right? right Where it's like, oh my goodness, you're just allowed to need to sit for a minute because you're just not ready. yeah And I think that's really important to to allow kids to identify it, communicate it, and be given that space. And I think that's a really important thing that we can model and and share and and produce for kids in this space. And I'm so glad that we have the space to do it.
00:49:15
Speaker
And that's why I love doing what I'm doing and having that ability. Like you said, like, yeah, not all situations will allow you to just pause. Yep, true. um So one of the things I've noticed about classes, you know, if you have a neurodivergent kid, there's a couple of different sort of trauma oriented things that pop up a lot, right?
Trauma-Informed Outdoor Education
00:49:34
Speaker
Some of it is just labeled as like school trauma or XYZ trauma. um And then there's another sort of like,
00:49:41
Speaker
non-cereotypical presentation of autism called PDA. Pathological demand avoidance by the person who named it pervasive drive for autonomy. um and Both of these situations require ah sort of going back to the drawing board and creating safety around experiences that have previously been not safe for whatever reason. Right? Like a lot of times, um, and we talk about this in other podcasts, the kid will get pathologized, but it's what's going on in their internal world is.
00:50:14
Speaker
I don't feel safe right now. And one of the interesting things I've seen, ah cool things I've seen at Outdoor Play Connection is kids who are going through that get a lot of ah lot of space. um And you might not even know that that that is that kid's backstory. You can just kind of tell when you've lived it yourself and you walk in and you're like, oh, like this kid is Like, if the only thing we're working on is creating safety around a bunch of kids in a semi organized setting, huge win over here because that's been so unsafe in the past. um So I'd love to talk more about that because whether you realize it or not, you're doing a lot of trauma informed work. um And I also want people to know that this is a place that they can go or an environment that they can go just to be able to start to tackle some of those things.
00:51:04
Speaker
Yeah, I love that you and love that you say, even if you don't know, and i'll i'll the reality of it is I've learned that I was doing it because of the foundation of me giving kids what they need. I then realized by partnering with the parents, which is something that we talked about, I realized what it was doing.
00:51:23
Speaker
So I was doing it because I was just, that's my baseline of, I'm going to provide what this child needs and partner with the parent. And then I find out deeper what it's actually doing. And so I was not always aware of it. I am now. yeah And, but through the process of partnering with the parents educated me on how impactful it can be to the child in their life overall in general.
00:51:47
Speaker
And so ah I have kids who come and that's why I think it's important to partner with the parents and to talk to the parents of what their goals are. Yeah. what is most important to you and your child? Like what is your child working on? What, um you know, some kids show up and they're terrified of bugs, right? yeah You know, and so and it's fine. They can be terrified of bugs. That's fine. um But they tend to end up getting more relaxed about it in class because we're not pushing it, right? But I have kids who come and it's like, they they need to build. They just need to be who they are and be accepted and feel that safety, like you said. yeah where
00:52:24
Speaker
i've I've actually seen the reaction on kids' faces. And this was like in the beginning, the first few weeks where they were trying to do things and they realized they did it wrong and they got, ah you could just see it on their face. And I was like, no, no, it's fine. I was like, tell me what you need. And the other look on their face is kind of like, what do you mean? yeah right And they it's slowly building that trust.
00:52:46
Speaker
of no, that's okay. Like, first off, making mistakes is how we learn. yeah And, ah you know, everything is fine. Let's let's learn together about what happened here and how we do we want to do it differently and what that looks like. Sometimes the kid just needs to be in the space, whether they're sitting on a rock,
00:53:04
Speaker
whether they're building their own structure, whether they're just observing different things, right? Just walking around in the classroom and hanging out, just journaling. And I don't mean just by like, to belittle it, but like, if that's the one thing that they need to focus on and do the whole class, great.
00:53:21
Speaker
Yes. And I don't see it as them not participating. I see it them as participating in the way that they need. And I have seen the change from kids who really just needed to be and do their own thing to welcoming other kids into their space, welcoming them to join, collaborating with kids doing their own and bringing things. I've seen villages come together. Yes.
00:53:44
Speaker
structure is saying that we're going to work together. and There's this whole imaginary world that's happening. And some of these kids were not even willing to talk to other kids in the beginning. Right? So 10 weeks in now, they're now collaborating and bringing other kids into their play and incorporating other kids play into their play. And now it's a whole new space. And now they feel like ownership of their space in their class and their learning.
00:54:10
Speaker
Right. And they become more open to having things brought to them. Now, now I have the door open where we can talk about some things where if I started talking to them in the very beginning, like it.
00:54:25
Speaker
Number one, I'm not respecting their needs. I'm i'm just interrupting what they're doing. yeah So why would they ever listen to me in the future? But if they see like, no, I see what you're doing and I'm respecting what you're doing, I'm giving you that space, they flourish. And then I get the feedback from the parents saying, they absolutely love being here. They want to come to another class. When is the other class? They talk about it all the time, right? And they can see the change at home because then the They have a space where they feel regulated and calm and secure, and then they can go home yeah and process things differently because now they're they're in a different space. right like meant like they're They're able to come to other situations in a different my mindset. Yes. and i The modeling comes up a lot as well.
00:55:09
Speaker
um especially in the world of narrative versions, people get so focused on teaching kids things. I have to teach them to self-regulate. I have to teach them to do XYZ. I have to provide. and And our kids need support, so don't want to deny that to anyone. Visuals are a game changer. There's a lot of things that are really helpful, but somewhere in there, in my opinion, the modeling gets so discounted. And one of the things you know that has worked really well with my son is I've always modeled flexibility with him, right? like I don't fear that we're going to get stuck in a routine that we can't get ourselves out of. like I refuse to even even think like that unless there's evidence to the contrary, and even then I create some space. But being able to say, okay, that wasn't what I had planned, but if you need to do that right now, let's do it.
00:55:59
Speaker
He's fairly flexible for someone who has a couple different diagnoses that say he should be otherwise. um And so that modeling is so important. It's not that the goals are necessarily different. We all have to learn to coexist and collaborate in the world. It's just that the way of getting there is so much more natural.
00:56:22
Speaker
yeah yeah Yeah. And it's allowing them to interact it with interact in the way that works best for them. And I think it's another example I can give is when we were doing shelter building and the whole, like most of the, I'd say 85% of the class was together learning how to do the structure. And there was maybe two or three kids who were not, not as, and from the outside, you might say not as engaged. Yeah.
00:56:50
Speaker
right It looks like they're not engaged. And there were two structures that were made. So the group made a structure together, and then there was a child who built their own structure, and then another couple of kids who built their own structure further away. And if you might have thought that they weren't listening, they weren't participating, they made the same structure that the group did. They just went and did it their own way yeah in their own space. One did it on his own, one did it in a smaller group.
00:57:18
Speaker
yeah But the learning was still there. yeah The process was still there. It just looked different. And I think i think that's beautiful to see like three different ways of learning the same thing. yeah right it's not that we're not It's not that they're not learning. They're just doing it in a different way. Absolutely. And I i love seeing that. like The kids just show so many amazing things that can happen when we allow them. Yeah.
00:57:48
Speaker
So that's amazing. And it's it's almost every week I see examples of this. It's like every week I see and it's the growth that I see from kids from last year to this year, even, yeah you know, kids who, you know, we had somebody, he really enjoys.
00:58:03
Speaker
you know, the water. Yep. And you know, when it gets cold, it just, we just got cold here. Um, finally, you have to be a little finally got cold. You have to be a little careful with the water yeah because you can get cold. And you know, and he just wanted to experience the water in the winter. And we explained like, if you get wet, we have to be like, you have to go home. Like you can't stay wet in these temperatures. Yeah. Right. Um,
00:58:31
Speaker
And we explained it. That's where I'm saying like the observing and providing information is really important. And he still chose to experience the water. And so his feet are wet, his clothes are wet. And so we had to call the parent and the parent came and we told the parent, we were like, it's not an issue. Like I always tell parents like nobody's in trouble here. Cause parents are usually concerned that what did my kid do? And I'm like experienced water in winter.
00:58:59
Speaker
yes Kept them warm, you're picking them up. It is fine. That was the lesson and experience of the day. yeah And that is how they're going to learn about water in winter. That child has not done that again since. Yeah, because it's cold. Right. It's cold.
00:59:17
Speaker
But not everybody, you have to experience it. So really, what do you mean? It's water, right? So sometimes just saying the facts of like, by the way, I'm telling you this thing and it's true and you shouldn't do it. yeah Just like climbing the tree, like learning your balance and learning your capabilities and risk assessment.
00:59:35
Speaker
He needed to understand that the water would make him cold. yep And he was cold. He was safe. We kept him warm. yeah We knew what to do. and you know That's what I'm talking about, like safe risk assessment. yeah And the parents took him home and he was fine. But you know what? He doesn't want to leave class. yeah He doesn't get wet anymore in the winter.
00:59:53
Speaker
yeah No, it totally it totally makes so much sense. um So tell us, I think we're coming up on time, tell us about where we can find outdoor play connection um and anything else you want to sort of plug.
01:00:07
Speaker
Sure.
Conclusion and Resources for Families
01:00:08
Speaker
So you can go to outdoorplayconnection.com, which is our website. And we keep that pretty up to date on anything that's going on, classes, special events. You can also find me on Instagram at outdoorplayconnection. And I promise to make it fun and entertaining. I really do enjoy creating content there. You said a lot of people like universally good content, whether you can attend classes or not. I agree. That's right. And I do like to share different educational aspects there too and just help bring more awareness to being outdoors and even if you can't attend the class, even if you're not local to me, you know, I love sharing information on how you can get outdoors with your kids and helping people understand the steps that you can take, right? So just getting outdoors with your kids can feel really overwhelming and I know that.
01:00:55
Speaker
And so I love when if you're feeling like it's too much, it's too overwhelming, you don't know where to start. I encourage you to DM me and I will happily get you started where you need to get started because I've had so many parents start there and now they are outdoors with their kids multiple times a week. um We have our lantern walk coming up.
01:01:13
Speaker
um and We do that every single year in December. Super exciting event that we do. We do an Earth Day cleanup in the spring. Our classes run from September through May. We have a 30 week program now. and We have a few spots left in some of and our parent child class. And I think I have one spot left in the nature school right now. um And other than that, you know we love doing pop-up classes. ah We have great summer camps that we run. Love summer camp. It was so much fun. We do five days a week.
01:01:42
Speaker
um at least three three weeks in the summer. um But otherwise, if you want to get outdoors and you're not sure how to do it, whether your kid is neurotypical, nor divergent, whichever it is, I really truly believe that the outdoors is for everybody and you can find a way to interact with it that works for you and your family. It does not need to look like a super long hike, an all-day hike or camping trip.
01:02:04
Speaker
just getting outdoors could mean just stepping outside and experiencing and observing nature for 20 minutes. You can start with five minutes and work your way up there. So if your goal is to be out for 20 minutes, I'm here to help you start one minute at a time.
01:02:18
Speaker
Amazing. And if you were a shopper and need motivation, the gear is really cute for Instagram pictures. I'm just going to throw that out there.
01:02:28
Speaker
ah ah Amazing. Well, thank you so much. This was an incredible conversation. I am so excited to push it out into the world. um And I will, I will see you soon. Thank you so much. This was so much fun. so
01:02:50
Speaker
I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. As always in the show notes, I will link any references from the show um and share how you can get in touch with Claudine and her team at Outdoor Play Connection. Thank you again for choosing to spend your time with us and I will see you next week.