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Episode 2: Embracing the Journey, Educating 2E Kids
108 Plays2 months ago
In this inspiring episode, we sit down with Jacqui Byrne, Founder of FlexSchool, to explore the unique journey of raising twice-exceptional (2E) children. Jacqui shares her wealth of wisdom and insights on creating positive education models that celebrate individual strengths while providing the necessary support to overcome challenges. Together, we discuss the transformative power of tailored learning environments and how parents and educators can empower 2E kids to thrive. Whether you're a parent, teacher, or advocate for neurodivergent learners, this episode is packed with inspiration and actionable takeaways.
https://www.flexschool.net
https://www.instagram.com/flex_school/
Podcast References: Columbus Group Definition
"Giftedness is 'asynchronous development' in which advanced cognitive abilities and heightened intensity combine to create inner experiences and awareness that are qualitatively different from the norm. This asynchrony increases with higher intellectual capacity. The uniqueness of the gifted renders them particularly vulnerable and requires modifications in parenting, teaching and counseling in order for them to develop optimally." (Columbus Group, 1991)
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Transcript
ADHD: The CEO's Advantage
00:00:03
Speaker
I think there is many ways of being gifted as there are smack dab in the middle with this overlap. But some of the overlap actually fuels the gifts, right? ADHD is known as the CEO's disease because You may not be able to focus long, but you can focus wide, right? You can synthesize information from all over the place and come up with something new. It doesn't look so good in a classroom when you're in middle school.
00:00:41
Speaker
Welcome
The Diverge Podcast's Mission
00:00:42
Speaker
to The Diverge Podcast. Inclusive of autistic and other neurodivergent voices, we exist to bridge the gap between specialized knowledge and everyday parenting. We are on a mission to bring together the most forward-thinking experts who are deep in the trenches, championing neuroaffirming and developmentally-based approaches to therapy, to education, and life. Designed for parents, educators, friends, and allies, conversation by conversation, insight by insight,
00:01:09
Speaker
We are building community and making space for all kinds of minds. Today
Jackie Byrne's Personal Journey and Flex School Motivation
00:01:16
Speaker
on the podcast, we have Jackie Byrne, the founder of The Flex School. The Flex School is a school for twice exceptional kids or two eKids as we refer to them throughout the podcast. And those are children who are considered intellectually gifted, but also have either a another diagnosis on top of that or a learning disability.
00:01:37
Speaker
um What I love about Jackie is two things. um She is a mom who identifies herself as someone who had no choice, which launched this amazing school and is an incredible story she'll talk about, but also that she's she's successfully raised ah three kids who are launched off into the world. She helped them find their passions and their purpose and their way, um but also did it while prioritizing their mental health, um which is a huge value of mine.
00:02:08
Speaker
If you're listening and you don't have a kid who you believe is 2E, I still encourage you to kind of stick out the conversation. um There's a lot of great just shared moments about parenting neurodivergent kids in here, but also what I have found um in my personal journey with my kids is that when we hit a wall and when we hit a barrier,
00:02:28
Speaker
um Very often, you know society will tell you it's because your kids are incapable, but a lot of times approaching things with this idea that there is um a lot happening there that they are having trouble expressing really helps us break down that barrier and sort of move through that wall. so These principles, I think, are applicable to to all kids and especially all families raising their divergent kids.
00:02:56
Speaker
So give it a listen. Really excited to jump in. um And I will see you again when we get through the podcast. Thanks. Jackie, welcome to the podcast. I am so excited to jump in. Why don't we start by you introducing yourself and giving us a little bit of background on the Flex School. Hi.
Founding Flex School: Necessity and Individualized Learning
00:03:18
Speaker
I am so honored to be here on Christy's podcast and really looking forward to our conversation. I started this school because I was a desperate parent, essentially. I have four kids, including a set of triplets, and I am a single parent. So homeschooling, unfortunately, was not an option, though I heard much begging about it.
00:03:46
Speaker
and um So in sixth grade, two of the triplets started failing out of school and they wouldn't do the assignment if they thought it was stupid and they would forget to turn it in if they did deign to do it. And yet, they were fully engaged at home and building things and artistic projects and reading. And and the teachers were trying. you know they They were trying really hard. And I hear heartbreaking stories. um But in my kid's case, the the teachers were working really hard to try to bring them along. And one dropped out of gifted and talented.
00:04:25
Speaker
you know, they just were not thriving. But you know, in the beginning, I thought, well, sixth grade seems like a good time to learn how to play school, right? And if you fail,
00:04:39
Speaker
whoop-de-do, you know? Okay, maybe you have to repeat a year, but you will have learned ah a lesson, natural consequences, you know? The grades don't go to college. I figured, okay, we're just going to let this play out. Unfortunately, they foiled me. um They got more anxious and more depressed, and one of them in particular started going downhill quickly. And it became clear that I no longer had a choice to just let things ride. and I was running the academic portion of ah an educational company that I had co-founded, and I had been working with other kids like mine. and I knew that some of them needed a new school too, but
00:05:25
Speaker
You know, it took a little while for me to wrap my head around starting a school. And actually, it was a very naive moment on my part. i You're laughing, but this is so true. and i thought right now I thought, how hard can it be to start a school, you know? yeah Well, it is way harder than I thought and so much more rewarding and interesting and creative and all kinds of wonderful things. And now those two kids were at flex school for six years and just graduated from college. One is in graduate school and the other is the other is a teacher. So it is, you know, it's a nice, neat story, right? it It like wraps up in a little bow. But I just want to also point out that that's not how it went down.
00:06:22
Speaker
Right? That's fair. Our kids tend to go up and down a little more steeply, shall we say, than than some typically developing kids. And while they're in a good place now, that isn't how it was all the time. And even being at a school specifically for kids just like them, they still sometimes struggled and it still took time to make as much progress as we all had hoped that they would make more quickly. And every neurodivergent kid is on their own journey. And to evaluate them against other kids is to do them a disservice and to make us more depressed. Right. And so to just understand they're on a journey and
00:07:15
Speaker
they're going they're going to get there. It might take them longer. It may not look pretty along the way, and but they still they still can get there.
Navigating College for Neurodivergent Kids
00:07:29
Speaker
They're usually just a little behind other kids in putting all of the pieces of themselves together to let those things those pieces shine in the world.
00:07:42
Speaker
Oh, that's therapy for me today. That's so cool. That's such a cool story to hear. Um, timeline keeps coming up a lot in conversations that I'm having. Um, particularly when you talk to, so my son's on the spectrum.
00:07:58
Speaker
And so this is a big conversation and sort of the outskirts of the autism world right now, but it's in their own time, in their own way. And it just doesn't have to look like everyone else does. And there's more and more autistic people who are coming out um and saying this. And it's very helpful as a parent to hear those things, but then also like, OK, but what's the road map? And that's where it gets really fun. So it's hard. And yeah, if you don't mind, I'd love to mention something else because of course this comes up all the time. Parents look at their 14 year old and they say, oh, my God, it's never going to leave my basement to go to college. Yep. And it's so easy. And you know what? I knew better and I still did it. So.
00:08:45
Speaker
You know, it is, uh, it is a really hard thing because you look at this child and you project them into college and it's horrifying. Yeah. But the thing is that child's not going to college. The child is going to college is older and more mature and maybe has had a gap year and their, you know, executive functioning skills have developed more, not perfectly, but more. And,
00:09:14
Speaker
That's the kid who will go to college. yeah And it's just so hard. to not project. It's, it's really, and I think too, there's so few models. And one of the things I say, you know, all the time, I'm a little bit of a different situation. And then I was homeschooled for, for nine years, um, for very different reasons. But when I talked to professionals around here and one of my son and I like, well, what do you want from him? What if, what do you want for him? What if he can never do school or homeschooling right now? What if he can like never, you know, sit and attend and he always has to do things at his own pace.
00:09:49
Speaker
what's he going to do for a job? I'm like, he can be an artist. He can be a musician. I'm like, he'll figure it out. And most of the time their jaw drops and you're like, where are you from? I'm like, not here.
00:10:02
Speaker
I was like, I had a wonderful and like i've had a wonderful life, a wonderful career. And I had to figure out a lot on my own for very different reasons. I'm like, it can be done. It just to your point doesn't always look linear. so Right.
00:10:14
Speaker
um or follow you know that very specific 18, go to school for four years, go get it's it. like It's just different. ah But anyway, no, those are all wonderful words of wisdom. um You were at a flex school. So who primarily is the the flex school for? So we have kids who are primarily 2E, though we have some kids who are gifted, profoundly gifted, et cetera. Most of our kids are 2E, which For those who aren't familiar with this term, it means that they are gifted in one or more areas. And there are challenges that get in the way of their being able to share that gift with teachers and the world. So essentially,
00:11:02
Speaker
um they might be on the spectrum or have ADHD or Tourette or they might be really anxious and be unable to speak up in class. They might have dyslexia and be unable to write um and and reading is hard if they don't have enough assistive tech.
00:11:23
Speaker
so Usually, their testing looks like the Rocky Mountains. There are you know peaks and valleys and they're very steep mountains. you know They might be in the 98th percentile on one or two subtests and they might be in the 30th percentile you know on something else.
00:11:50
Speaker
and that's really hard to deal with as a child, as a parent, as a teacher. you know They really are more complicated. I would argue way more interesting too, but you know they are more complicated and I think um it's okay for parents especially to sort of pat themselves on the back and say, okay,
00:12:18
Speaker
it's It's hard some days. And it is hard. I think a lot of times too, it really gets pushed aside from the gifted conversation. We've talked about this a lot when it doesn't just show up on paper um or it doesn't necessarily show up as really great at reading or really great at math. um a years I know for me, I just kind of had a hunch at one point. I remember when my son was um so Before we got him diagnosed with anything, I literally remember laying in my bed at night in the middle of COVID Googling, is my kid delayed or bored? is What was in front of me versus like the juxtaposition against it I saw with a bunch of other things, it just didn't make sense.
00:13:02
Speaker
um And so I think it's really easy to like, look over that. And then what happens is you get put in the system, um where you have a whole bunch of stereotypes applied to a very young child. And you kind of, I mean, I have been in situations where I don't know which way is up. So it's a really interesting thing to sort of pull apart and understand. um but I think, you know, one definition that's helpful is the the Columbus definition of gifted. Yes, you know, It includes so many other things other than just straight academics, visual, spatial, artistic, creative. you know There are so many ways to be gifted. Somebody is sort of
00:13:46
Speaker
way out there, but somebody who's a race car driver has reflexes that are way into the gifted category and I would never step into a race car. That's really interesting. There are so many dancers. like There are so many ways of being gifted and It's so exciting to be able to keep those involved. And, you know, that's part of the best practice for working with TUI and gifted kids is T, especially for TUI kids to use the their interests and their their gifts to help them have the courage to try the things that they're not very good at. Interesting. So it does come down to,
00:14:40
Speaker
ah Kind of a perfectionist streak in there that makes it hard to step up when you know, you can't nail something Yeah, I don't think it's just perfectionism either so if you think about If you think about a kid who's really bright in whatever way they're very precocious and adults notice and adults start saying things like, Oh, you're so smart. Oh, you're reading earlier. Oh, you did that math in your head or, you know, Oh, look at that drawing. And this praise gets internalized in the child. And they think that it is who they are and why they're valued.
00:15:31
Speaker
And adults only mean good things. Right. And for some children, this doesn't have a problem. you know It doesn't cause a problem. But especially for 2E kids, when they hit a point where they don't understand something the first time they hear it, there's this clutch inside of them like, oh my god, maybe I'm not as smart as everyone thinks I am. Interesting. Oh, wow.
00:15:59
Speaker
you know and then They try to hide it. They don't go tell someone like, oh, maybe I'm not as smart as everyone thinks I am. Right. No, this is where they're they think they're valuable because of this. Right. And so they hide it. And kids tend to sort of defend their. Their, you know, gifts, you know, oh, yeah, well, I'm really smart. They could become braggarts or they become perfectionists or they don't do anything to maintain people's view of them.
00:16:30
Speaker
yes Or they give up and they become apathetic and depressed and they have school refusal and they just, well, if I'm not smart, I must not be smart. So why should I even bother? And this identity crisis that kids have when they run into something they can't understand is profound and very destabilizing for the child. And it makes them question everything.
00:16:59
Speaker
their place in the world, their place in the family, their place in the classroom, what their parents are going to think, what their teacher going to think. Like it really is very destabilizing. And so having, having people around who understand and who model that you can be smart and not know everything. Yes. And that's one of the things we look for in teachers actually. Interesting. Is that they have to be humble enough to say to a child, I don't know,
00:17:29
Speaker
Can you go figure it out and come back and teach me or I don't know, you know let's figure it out together. It's really interesting that you say that because one of the things that I find lacking a lot in certain spaces is the belief that kids need the modeling as much as they do anything else around psychological flexibility um two ah to a point where it it can get very mind-numbing. But if I'm not modeling,
00:17:56
Speaker
patience, flexibility, curiosity, whatever the skill is that you're targeting, how will he ever learn? And people get so focused on the rigi rigidity that it's like, no, but they have to, they learn the same way we do. right So how do you, that's very interesting that you say that. Um, it's easy to, uh, you know, there are days that are stressful when you have two-week kids and neurodivergence of any kind, right right? And when you get stressed out, you tend to fall back on the way you were raised and the way you went to school. And it's so easy to have that happen. And it's hard not to say to a kid, don't talk to me like that. Instead of realizing, oh, they're having a hard time. Maybe I should, instead of reacting to what they're saying, yes maybe I should react and say,
00:18:57
Speaker
Hey, you seem like you're having a hard time. Can I help you? There's so much unlearning, I feel like. And that's true. I'm sure of parenting in all respects, but with these kids, even more so. um ah Very cool. So talk about best practices. is that I thought that was a really interesting thing that you hit on. When you're working with these kids, what are you guys looking for? What kind of environment are you creating that works best for them?
Talent-Based Learning at Flex School
00:19:21
Speaker
A talent-based program, I think, is the most important thing because if you think about special ed, it's a deficit-based model. Normal is whatever normal is. yes and um And they are trying to bring kids up to that norm. And that necessitates focusing on the things that are wrong.
00:19:43
Speaker
yeah Well, who wants to go to school and focus on the things that are wrong? And who wants to get pulled out of the the special electives to go work with the writing specialist, right? They lose all the fun stuff and everybody focuses on the things that aren't working as well as normal, again, whatever that is. yeah So a talent-based program celebrates the things that they can do well and uses those things to help them make the progress in areas that are a real struggle. So for example, um we had a student who couldn't write at all yeah and was well into middle school. And so we
00:20:38
Speaker
had him work with a learning specialist and she started with his photos because he loved to take photos. So she had him write captions for them and that he was willing to do. And from there, he was able to write full sentences, right? And giving them um something that they're able to do and want to do changes everything.
00:21:07
Speaker
We had another little guy who refused to do the world map in social studies. And yeah, big refusal, not happening. So the teacher found out from the science teacher that he really liked bats. So he rewrote the assignment and said he wanted a world map of bat species. And he got a very, very, very detailed map. I'm sure he did. It was quite specific. Yes.
00:21:34
Speaker
and um and think about that gives the kid a win. yeah And it lets the teacher have a conversation the next time he refuses to do something, which of course he did pretty free, you know, yeah right after that. And then they could have a conversation about, well, you know, it was interesting. You didn't want to do this, but then you did an incredible job. You know, how can we start integrating these two things? yeah And it's,
00:22:06
Speaker
um So the talent-based aspect of it is really important.
00:22:12
Speaker
I also think that is, it causes a lot of problems. And that is that they don't think adults deserve respect just because they're old. Nor do I. I don't blame them. Yes, however. It's my own issue, but yes.
00:22:35
Speaker
You know, when they say, why do we need to know this? You just do. Or, you know, pay attention to the lesson you're supposed to be doing. in And if you treat the kids as though they're adults, just tell them the reason. Or the student says, that is really boring. I don't want to learn this. You're right. This is boring. But the next thing I'm going to teach you is interesting. And if you don't know this, I can't teach it to you.
00:23:05
Speaker
And then if you just react the way you would to another adult, it's fine. But the minute it becomes a clash of authority, the adults are going down. Yep.
00:23:22
Speaker
I'm going to start saying it like that. It's funny. You have two different dictionaries were saying the same thing, but I've always said that about my son. I'm like, if you just like the tone of your voice, like the, he just has to be your sidekick and it's fine. The second you need to control him or the process or be the adult in there, it's over and you lose. And none of my friends believe me. I'm like, no, you don't understand. There's no doubt. Yes.
00:23:49
Speaker
yeah Right. Like there's no ethical way to win. And behavior plans don't work for them. The first time they'll do it at a curiosity, and then they get the prize or whatever it is, they're like, Oh, okay, this is how this works. And then they they won't do it again, because they already know it is a very, uh, yeah. yeah
00:24:11
Speaker
You know, at first it's frustrating, but once you have a relationship with a child and they trust you and they know that you respect them back, that's i think all of a sudden it changes everything. And then you can say to them, hey, I know you have 10 questions, but I have to finish teaching this class. Write them down. I'll talk to you after class. And no, we can't do that. And they'll take it because you've already proven that you will listen when they have a concern. You've already proven that you'll give them a straight answer. And that makes all the difference in the world. And one of the, one of the other special traits that Gifs and Tui kids have is they're like social justice warriors and, and fairness.
00:25:08
Speaker
yes And it's unfair of the teacher not to explain to them what is going on. It's unfair that so-and-so was asked a question they didn't want to answer, and the teacher tried to force them. Like, the fairness, you know, runs deep. yes And it frequently comes out in in social justice areas.
00:25:36
Speaker
but it also comes out in, well, you didn't say it in a way that I think you should have. Yes. And you're making me do something and that's not fair. Yes. No, absolutely. And then I have this conversation with a lot of people, like philosophically, it's like justice is completely oriented to your worldview. Like whether you like it or not, it is. So if you're a very black and white thinker or you have a strong, like,
00:26:05
Speaker
you know, inkling for justice in certain situations, it's still oriented to how you see the world. So that doesn't necessarily mean it's just for everybody. It just means in this moment, this is what you perceive as just, right um which makes it real fun with a young child. But yes, very.
00:26:22
Speaker
Talk a little bit more about giftedness outside of um academic realm so one of the things that happens a lot is i'll be talking um to parents and we know we're all talking trying to figure things out their kids are having trouble with the school system and i've even said a couple of times if you thought about like have you seen this flex school and they're like well that's for gifted kids.
00:26:42
Speaker
And I'm sitting back and I'm like, there's probably a little bit of that happening, but they just miss it because everybody's so thinking about Sheldon Cooper is the best example I have. Talk about some of the other places it shows up and more practically what that might like look like to creativity wise, um things like that. I think parents have an inkling of whether their kid is really superb at something.
00:27:11
Speaker
even if they're not doing well in a lot of other areas. But then when the child goes to school, it gets lost in timed addition worksheets and other things that maybe the child can't do. And so if you can hold on to those things that you notice and find a way to incorporate them outside of school. And I'll give you a quick example from one of my kids um who was selectively mute at that point. She was for several years. um The teacher said that she had drawn perspective and something behind something else in a drawing. And the teacher had never seen that before in a child.
00:28:07
Speaker
Yes, I put her in art lessons, but it's very, it's those little moments, and that happened to be a teacher, right? Yeah. But I knew that she could draw. I knew how artistic she was. So I think parents trust themselves and think about, okay, they're always moving.
00:28:32
Speaker
awesome. Maybe they need kinesthetic things. Let's put them in rock climbing class. Yeah. Let's, you know, try running a 5K together. You know, there are so many different ways of exploring other aspects and you just keep exploring the mountain, you know, like there are, I think there is many ways of being gifted as there are of being challenged.
00:29:03
Speaker
Oh, I love that. Two eKids are smack dab in the middle with this overlap. they get it both yeah Some of the overlap actually fuels the gifts, right? ADHD is known as the CEO's disease.
00:29:19
Speaker
yep because you can You may not be able to focus long, but you can focus wide. yeah right You can synthesize information from all over the place and come up with something new. It doesn't look so good in a classroom when you're in middle school. right On the other hand, kids who are dyslexic can be incredible visually and spatially because one of the reasons kids can't read are that words or letters move around on the page. They're not fixed in space. And so they may not be able to read, but if you ask them, do you pick up a table? You tell them, draw a table upside down and sideways.
00:30:05
Speaker
they can do that. I can't do that. no But they can do that. and Because things aren't fixed in space, they can move things around. So architecture, you know, all kinds of different ways to use a challenge that is a legitimate challenge, no question, right? It's not that the the gift is worth more than the challenge. It's that the challenge and the gift work together. worked And they need support and they need an outlet for the part that works so well.
00:30:44
Speaker
out of what you're describing it as gifted, when you're talking to you know parents of kids on the spectrum comes across as like a special interest, right? yeah And then a lot of times what will happen is people will tell you to use that special interest to kind of like as a bribe to get them to do the things that they like don't want to do. ah Flat out that has never worked in my house except for maybe potty training. And that cost me like $250.
00:31:11
Speaker
but It's so interesting when you move kind of outside of that philosophy, there's a lot of people are like, no, you have to like, nurture the gift. It's what regulates them. It's what kind of like brings them into their body. It's what helps them access the strengths that they need to pull through the challenges. um And that's a conversation happening in two very different ways. If you can incorporate their special interest, and it's hard for them,
00:31:40
Speaker
they're so much more likely to do it rather than know you have to learn about rocks and they're interested in trains. Now you can put it together because they had to lay all those tracks and yeah through a lot of rocks and you know let's see how much pressure you know it takes to ah track through granite so we can put the train track in. You know, I mean, there are ways to put things together. You just have to spend a little time wrapping your head around it. and So on that note, curiosity.
00:32:18
Speaker
Is that similar to these unschooling philosophies that are out there? Because I've done a deep dive on a ton of ah this kind of philosophies. Is it the same idea? ah ah Does that work flat out or are there things that you have to kind of just variables you have to control for because you have a kid who might never be interested in certain things? What are your thoughts on that? I think unschooling is so interesting and I think it depends on the child. I think it can be brilliant for the right kid. If your child will follow something they're curious about into other areas. So it's a special interest, but there's some flexibility in the way they'll look at it so they can incorporate the rocks, you know, a math problem, whatever it is so that
00:33:14
Speaker
it all gets integrated into how they learn, then I think it's amazing. If you don't have a child like that, if they have some challenges that are getting in the way or they're hyper-fixated on one thing and they don't ever move off it into something else, then I think they need more support than unschooling will allow for. How much support depends on the child. And maybe it's once a week, but maybe it's every day. I don't know. yeah and And that's where I think parents have to think about what could be wonderful and what what child might need a little bit right more. They might need social pragmatic help. And
00:34:11
Speaker
you know, most of the time friendships and trying to join a group and not knowing how things like that are where a lot of the social pragmatic stuff comes out. And without a group, it's harder to see that. And then yeah if you, a ton of homeschoolers and unschoolers get together with other kids all the time. So oh yeah it comes out there.
00:34:35
Speaker
but then they're gonna need that support, which again, you can get outside of a school setting and continue to unschool. But I think it's being aware that there are certain things that have to be added for some kids. That's fair. Yeah, so it's actually really interesting. So my son is good at sort of like following his interests and his leads.
00:35:01
Speaker
But if you let him drive the ship completely, it's gonna take us like 10 years before he ever writes a letter again, right? So when we first started homeschooling last year, what I quickly figured out is you might not do a worksheet. I'm like, but you'll do a worksheet if it has Lightning McQueen on it.
00:35:18
Speaker
So it was, and we weren't doing a ton of it like three times a week, but it was just enough to be able to like sort of move the needle a little bit in terms of like handwriting or whatever we were working on. But it absolutely had to be something he was interested in. And it couldn't be too good either because then it would just throw him off. You'd get too excited and throw him off completely.
00:35:44
Speaker
But, but it was really interesting to kind of watch. It's like, okay, you don't like worksheets. I can understand why, but if the right thing is on them, you'll at least like engage for a second. So it's very much, it's an art. It's not a, it's not a science or it's a mix of both. I'm going to say that. I think it actually is. I think working with these kids requires incredible intuition and especially in the beginning,
00:36:12
Speaker
when they're not as verbal or they can't write or they don't know how to advocate for themselves. It takes a lot of intuition on the part of the parents and teachers, evers coaches, whoever is working with them, because it's not all clear. And, you know, let's hear it for teachers for a second. Nobody goes into teaching because they don't like kids. They do like kids. And so when things go wrong,
00:36:45
Speaker
you know, the teachers don't have any training in two E or neurodivergent kids. And in, in graduate school, they usually get, you know, a two hour class on giftedness and nothing on two E kids. And it's, so it's, they don't have enough information to know how to handle your kid in a classroom and they've got you know more than 20 other kids and 10 of them have IEPs and you know it's a lot to manage and it's easy for them to focus on the behaviors that they're seeing in your child because that's what they're seeing and that's what's getting in the way of their being able to do their jobs. It's not going what's going on for your kid.
00:37:38
Speaker
but it is what's going on for them. And so I think acknowledging that is often an important part of being able to actually talk to your child's teacher. to That's a really eloquent way to say that, that I haven't heard someone put together. And I think for neurodivergent kids, one of the best things they ever heard was it actually,
00:38:04
Speaker
in the corporate world, um, the woman who put together the Colby assessment. Um, I believe her father was like the founder of like the IQ test or something. And she was like, I don't, she's like, I don't do well on those tests. So I created this other assessment and it was all about, you know, how quick you are to act in certain things. And somewhere she does something about, you know, teachers and kids. And she was, you have to understand, she's like a lot of times to people who go into the teaching profession.
00:38:32
Speaker
They're very linear people. She goes, and we're not. And so on top of not having all that information that they need to be able to help these kids, it's two very different personalities. And I will be the first person to tell you that 90% of my intuition with my kid comes from the fact that I kind of get what's going on in there. How do you manage the balance of giftedness while continuing to nurture other support needs?
00:39:02
Speaker
And is there anything really specific to keep top of mind? We try to have the supports that the student needs, but not extra supports, right? Don't want to add an accommodation they don't need. And we want them to stay in class because we're trying to balance this rigor with support. And so One thing we do, for example, is have counseling on demand. So if somebody is anxious, they should go talk to someone. They're not anxious, they should stay in class. Yes. And that makes it easier for the teacher to move more quickly. I think one of the most important aspects of this is that we have ability-based classes. So
Ability-Based Classes at Flex School
00:39:52
Speaker
we don't base things on age. So if you're
00:39:57
Speaker
10 years old and you should be in algebra 2 than algebra 2. That's where you're going. Yeah. That also means that you might be with younger kids on something else that's more of a challenge. Right. And I don't know how to manage challenging and supporting two-week kids without doing it this way. Social-emotional stuff is done as sort of age-slash-maturity-based. Right. 100%. But the academics, they're so different. And you know I'll give you another example. We have um you know kids on the spectrum. Some of them are incredible at math. And some of them don't know how to do a word problem. Right. and so the minute
00:40:46
Speaker
they see a word problem, they get anxious because they're supposed to be really good at math. And now this is an aspect of math they're not good at. Don't want anyone to know they don't know how to do it. Right. yeah Again, all the walls go up. They're defending their position as a smart person. And if you just make one alteration, it can change your ability to work with them. And that is to give them extra credit if they get the problem right. And not take away any points if they get it wrong because you want them to try. Right. Because that's how you get a chance to talk to them about what's going on. Because there's so many places where you can get lost. yeah And there's no way to know if they're anxious. how How can you and they together figure out what kind of word problem
00:41:41
Speaker
gives them a hard time and where in it is it translating between words and formulas or is it, you know, something else? There's so many different places. Yeah. So I think that there are ways to incorporate support into advanced work. That's really cool. And I think you make a really good point too, that there's no way to know that they're anxious. Um, I find a lot of times that anxiety gets is very misunderstood. It might come out as behaviors. It might come down out of shutdown, which also gets called behaviors. But a lot of times people like you're not even close to understanding what triggered it and you're kind of so far past it. So how do you how do you navigate that when you don't necessarily know what triggered the anxiety or you can't even see it. When someone does the same thing over and over,
00:42:40
Speaker
and it's not working, then our instinct you know that we got when we were kids is, I've told you 10 times not to do it. But that's a clue that something's not working. And so instead, say, can I help you with this? Because if they If we believe, as I do, that all people, not just children, want to do well and want to do their best and they can't always because something gets in the way. yeah If we believe that, then someone doing the same thing over and over again isn't doing it on purpose to make you mad. They're doing it because they don't know what else to do right to make it successful.
00:43:35
Speaker
yes and so there are clues and behavior is often a clue. Um, I'll give you another example. If this is a ah good way to, uh, ask kids things, you know, if let's say one child says something really obnoxious to somebody else and they get all upset. Well,
00:44:04
Speaker
As an adult, there's no way to know how to react until you talk to the child because maybe he was trying to be funny and he really wants to be friends with this person. And it wasn't funny, but he thought it was.
00:44:24
Speaker
That's one conversation. right Or maybe the other kid annoyed him, and so he was trying to be obnoxious. That's a completely different conversation. yeah right And so taking the time to ask the child, what were you trying to do here?
00:44:43
Speaker
is so powerful because it cuts through so many automatic responses that we have when something goes awry. And I think just that moment to ask, it's also respectful.
00:45:02
Speaker
That is such an interesting conversation, particularly in the special needs world. And when you have a kid, and again, just coming from sort of my lens, who is higher support needs, there's, again, this fear of the future that, you know, they have to do what they're told because of XYZ or whatever that might be. But a lot of times respect gets very bypassed in that conversation.
00:45:30
Speaker
And so you can easily have a child who's very young, who's kind of being taught to override everything about what's going on inside of them in the name of compliance. And for me personally, I just, I always got like, I was very leery of that from the beginning. Um, but it is interesting when you give these kids kind of their space, respect is the first thing that bubbles to the surface. Um, yeah. And without that, I don't,
00:46:00
Speaker
I don't think our school could exist if we didn't work really hard on respecting the kids at the same time that we asked for their respect. Correct. It goes together. I agree. um That makes so much sense. Yeah. In younger kids, when you start to see signs of giftedness or something that they're just really good at, what do you feel like are the most important things to kind of consider?
00:46:35
Speaker
I think let them be free. I think that's the unschooling yeah because the minute adults take over and say, Oh, you seem really interested in this. Let's go take a class. Then you're taking over and your expectations become what's driving the kid. And then it's not theirs anymore. And they lose interest.
00:47:04
Speaker
Yes. So especially when they're really young, but honestly, even later, too, to let them have the things that they love, because really they're going to be better at it than everybody else. And they're going to figure it out themselves. And if they learn how to play the guitar on YouTube, well, isn't it amazing that there's YouTube and you don't have to go for lessons you can learn and yes to let them set the lessons at their own pace rather than taking them for guitar lessons. When they're ready, they'll tell you. But we all, I'm guilty of this too. We all want to jump and do it right now. Oh, we have to help them. You like art. Here's the giant easel and all this stuff and let's work on your name and year three.
00:47:57
Speaker
Right. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Just have the materials floating around, but don't give them to them as a setup. ah yeah Just have them around so that they can discover them. Yes. And use them. No, that's so funny. Hard learned lessons with a ah PD. Oh, very hard learned lessons.
00:48:21
Speaker
If you overdo it, we're done, mom. that's That's all I have to say about that. Yeah. And you know, they come up with the craziest thing. the My artistic kid, I went in one day and there was an entire scene laid out that she'd made out of the wax around lavashkiri cheese. Oh my goodness. So that had become modeling clay. And there were all of these different scenes from the Lenape Indians.
00:48:50
Speaker
That's insane. Yeah, that's what it was. And you let her near your cheese. I, you know, I think that there were kids eating a lot of cheese that day.
00:49:04
Speaker
Is there anything you kind of want to close with? You know, if Flex School is the right school, then I hope people will check it out. me But everybody deserves a chance to thrive wherever they go. And if that's not the right place and if they're thriving where they are, then they should stay. I would love it. I really believe that there's a place where kids can thrive and it's not necessarily ours.
00:49:35
Speaker
um And I also just want to say to parents again that you're amazing and you do so much work every single day in a world that is not the way you expected it to be. And
Celebrating Neurodivergent Parenting
00:49:56
Speaker
it's really hard and the days can sometimes be really long and cherish the funny moments because they are really funny. ah Really, really funny. um You know, when I had triplets, i
00:50:15
Speaker
I could not imagine making it through the first year. I really couldn't. Someone dropped off some clothes. They had triplets and their kids were a little older and they dropped them off and they said they had just gotten to sleep in on Saturday mornings. That the kids could make a bowl of cereal now and sit in front of the TV. And they got to sleep in a little. I couldn't even fathom this. But we got there.
00:50:43
Speaker
and I guess just that you're doing an amazing job because you're doing it and your kid loves you and is doing well. They don't love you every moment. Sometimes they hate you. ah Depends on the moment, but yeah the they're doing something really hard and they're doing it really well because they're supporting their kid and advocating for their kid and listening to this and probably listening to every podcast known to man. and
00:51:14
Speaker
out there doing all of this research and that makes them amazing and great advocates. Well, thank you so much. This was very fun and very enlightening. Thank you. I'm really glad that you invited me. I enjoyed this too. I'm really excited to launch it.
00:51:39
Speaker
Thank you for joining us. I really hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. I really encourage you to check out the show notes and look at the Flex School. Also, if you even if you aren't interested in the school, please sign up for their emails, follow them on social. There's just such a wealth of really good information about raising two eKids, but also just neurodivergent kids in general. So please take a look. If you are interested in the school, again, there is a campus in Berkeley Heights.
00:52:05
Speaker
There's a campus in Bronxville, New York, and then there is also a cloud school, so a lot of options for you to check out, especially if you are local to the New York, New Jersey area. Finally, for those of you who are interested in more of what we do at Diverge, our winter and spring programs are live on our website. You can check them out at divergeprograms dot.com and we will start to advertise summer very soon. So feel free to sign up for emails or just reach out to us and let us know you want to be updated. um Thank you again for joining us. We really appreciate you spending your time with us and we will see you next week.