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Episode 14: Radical Behaviorism & Radical Accountability: A nuanced conversation about ABA, ethics and how we move forward.
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Join us for an engaging episode featuring Brian Middleton, the Bearded Behaviorist, as we delve into the heart of Radical Behaviorism and Radical Accountability. In this conversation, Brian unpacks the evolving landscape of ABA, explores pressing ethical challenges, and offers fresh perspectives on how the field can move forward with renewed accountability. Whether you’re a seasoned practitioner or new to behavior analysis, this episode promises insightful dialogue, innovative ideas, and a touch of Brian’s signature wit. Tune in to rethink the future of ABA, ethics, and transformative accountability.
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Transcript
Awareness, Acceptance, and Inclusion
00:00:00
Speaker
that is accommodating and accepting of disability is a society that is accessible by everyone. ah Like we we want to like everybody's like autism awareness. Great. I'm aware of autism. Now what? Okay. ah Autism acceptance. Great. I accept autism exists. Okay. Autism inclusion. Cool. Awareness, acceptance, inclusion are stepping stones to belonging.
00:00:25
Speaker
Oh my God. I can't believe you just said that. I posted a podcast today about my son's nature school, um, which is not like run by people who have experience with, uh, special needs kids, yeah um, or autistic kids. And one of the things that I have been like blown away by, we talked about in the podcast is the, the founder's approach. Her name is Claudia. And she's like, I just treat kids as humans. And when it, when a class comes in, like I'm paying attention to what everybody needs. like Some kids you know need to do XYZ before they can sit down or write whatever it is. She goes, and because we're needs-based, like it's really easy to accommodate someone like Porter. like we just
00:01:10
Speaker
And I had a kind of a moment and I haven't posted it yet, but it's going to my personal like social. I'm like, that's kind of the root of belonging. Right. Like fitting in is like not rocking the boat. Right. And I think we all focus on fitting in sometimes for our kids so that they can have certain experiences.
Belonging vs. Fitting In
00:01:28
Speaker
But at the end of the day, what we really want is for them to belong and they can't belong in a space that is not acknowledging and meeting their needs in whatever that capacity is. Yep.
00:01:39
Speaker
um So very interesting that you said that because I've been mauling over the the post for quite a bit this morning. the a A quick brief, like I love the full quote, but I'll give a very, because we're, we're we're this is going to long anyways. so You might have to do three episodes. I will have to. Or more.
00:01:59
Speaker
Brene Brown. That's exactly what I was referencing in my head. pat True belonging does not require you to change who you are. It requires you to be who you are.
Introduction to Diverge Podcast
00:02:08
Speaker
Now, Welcome to the Diverge podcast, inclusive of autistic and other neurodivergent voices.
00:02:14
Speaker
We exist to bridge the gap between specialized knowledge and everyday parenting. We are on a mission to bring together the most forward-thinking experts who are deep in the trenches, championing neuroaffirming and developmentally based approaches to therapy, to education, and life.
00:02:30
Speaker
Designed for parents, educators, friends, and allies. Conversation by conversation, insight by insight, we are building community and making space for all kinds of minds.
00:02:43
Speaker
Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Diverge podcast.
Interview with Brian Middleton on Neuroaffirming Practices
00:02:46
Speaker
Today, we are part two-ing what I think will ultimately end up being a four-part conversation with Brian Middleton. He is an autistic BCBA, better known as the Bearded Behaviorist on Instagram. He is also the co-founder of Mindful Behavior.
00:03:00
Speaker
and very, very much an advocate and activist within the BCBA community for more neuroaffirming ABA practices. If you missed part one, we talked about a lot of different things, including models of disability and what it means to center the right holder rights holder.
00:03:16
Speaker
And we talked a little bit about assent within ABA. And this conversation is a continuation of that, where we talk more about the rights holder. We talk a lot about moral disengagement theory, which is one of my new favorite rabbit holes.
00:03:30
Speaker
And we also get into sort of the point of awareness versus acceptance and different things that are going on within the neurodiversity affirming movement. I think both of them are a really great conversation. If you haven't heard part one, I highly recommend going back and listen to listening to it first.
00:03:47
Speaker
um And then part two will make a lot of sense. But you can also just jump in because that's what we're going to do. So let's get into it. So let's talk about moral relatives of relativism in ABA.
00:03:57
Speaker
Why is it so important for us to avoid creating a relative scale around practices in any therapy, right? So like, for an example, electroshock therapy is really bad. There's been a huge buzz around restraint, seclusion, and what's going on at the center in Massachusetts.
00:04:15
Speaker
um So if that's really, really bad, like that's the worst of it, we can overlook things like forced eye contact. Yeah. How do we keep ourselves from getting into that space?
00:04:26
Speaker
So, so, so this is where I like to bring in other behavior scientists because other behavior scientists are very critical. And this behavior scientist, Albert Bendura, he introduced something called the moral disengagement theory.
00:04:42
Speaker
Now al Albert Bendura, I believe is a social, site was a social psychologist. He passed away. yeah, but ah You may recognize the name if you had know anything about ah psychology.
00:04:56
Speaker
ah You may recognize the name from the Bobo doll, um which the Bobo doll um yeah experiment is was a series of of experiments that were conducted ah to study how children learn aggression through observation.
00:05:13
Speaker
um So al but did Albert Bendura, a lot of his work was parallel to and and sometimes even complementary to radical behaviorism. um And Bandura did not like behaviorism.
00:05:27
Speaker
And i that's fair that like, like that he, he had some very good criticisms and I like his criticisms because um he was a part of the cognitive revolution.
00:05:38
Speaker
um And interestingly, since the cognitive revolution took place, behaviorism itself has found research that supports the cognitive revolution. um And, and that's where relational frame theory comes in. And we're going to be talking about acceptance, commitment therapy and all that later Right.
00:05:55
Speaker
ah But but like it they're not incompatible, quite the opposite. It's just it's different frameworks and way of looking at it. But back to moral disengagement. So I was going to say for listeners, i actually don't know what the cognitive revolution is.
Cognitive Revolution's Influence on Therapy
00:06:10
Speaker
Oh, cognitive revolution. um So um the cognitive revolution was ah where. It started off with Noam Chomsky criticizing Skinner um for his book about ah verbal behavior.
00:06:27
Speaker
um And it led to um a diverging of paths when it came to the way we look at internal behavior. um And it led to... I'm by no means an expert in this area, so if I get something wrong, please...
00:06:46
Speaker
please take this with a grain of salt. But it led to things like ah positive psychology, an expansion of social psychology. led to ah dialectical behavioral therapy and cognitive behavioral therapy.
00:07:01
Speaker
ah Basically, it... it helped with expanding areas where behaviorism was not doing so great at the time. Okay. okay Um, and, and, uh, also the cognitive revolution is linked to, um, the development of marriage and family therapy. Okay. Yeah.
00:07:19
Speaker
um Not 100% linked to it, but there's there's like connections. Interestingly, um one of the key contributors to marriage and family therapist is a radical behaviorist named Israel Gold Diamond.
00:07:33
Speaker
And Israel Gold Diamond actually is literally contradictory to Lavassian style approaches. um Gold Diamond and his friend Murray s Sidman did a lot of amazing work. And one of my favorite...
00:07:46
Speaker
things that Sidman wrote is a book called coercion and its fallout. Oh, interesting. And it literally goes into what the impacts of coercion are on behavior and how bad coercion is.
00:08:01
Speaker
And then like gold diamond himself introduced, um, or rather brought over a concept from, ah applied mathematics called degrees of freedom.
00:08:14
Speaker
Um, so yeah, Degrees of freedom are simple. If you hold up two fingers to represent two choices, you have one little divot in between it, which means you have one degree of freedom. So if you have two choices, you have one degree of freedom in between.
00:08:30
Speaker
Right. If you have three choices, you have two little divots between your fingers. and So they have two degrees of freedom. So the degrees of freedom is N, the number of choices you have, minus one.
00:08:42
Speaker
So 10 choices, you have nine degrees of freedom. Right. And the reason this is applied mathematics term or concept is that this is actually used in engineering and robotics to describe the degrees of freedom of movement that a robotic limb has. Got it. Okay, that makes sense. Right? But this also applies in a behavioral perspective because if you look at degrees of movement as choice... Right.
00:09:11
Speaker
freedom of choice, right? Then we can look at degrees of freedom from that context. And then we can add in degrees of coercion. Right. um and and And like, this is all before Lovas ever stepped on the scene. and so like you you know well he was on the scene, but he wasn't like before he gained prominence. So I have a very practical like question in that vein when you're talking about degrees of freedom.
00:09:37
Speaker
So one of the things i have noticed, With my son pulling him out of like a more structured ABA program, homeschooling, et cetera.
00:09:48
Speaker
um Is it prior to pulling him out, his so primary, we'll say behavior issue was like shut down behavior, right? Like he would just...
00:09:59
Speaker
scoop into himself and not do the thing or like behaviorally he was he was fine. he just wasn't moving, wasn't engaged with his environment. Pulling him out of that, right?
00:10:11
Speaker
Now that he has more choices, more freedom throughout his day, more models of what life can look like. shutdown is not our default anymore. Sometimes it could be leaving. Sometimes it could be, I don't want to do that and vocalizing it.
00:10:26
Speaker
Sometimes it could be like protesting things like he's never protested before. And there's like a nervousness as a parent. You're like, oh, am I like messing something up? Cause he's not as chill as he used to be.
00:10:37
Speaker
Or is he just, did he just never have the insight that like those choices were options to him?
00:10:45
Speaker
Is it that kind of? Yes. Yeah. It's yeah. It's, it it's that when the environment is restrictive, it will create conditions that lead to more restriction.
00:11:04
Speaker
Restriction leads to more restriction. Yeah. Okay. So and, and, and when an environment is highly coercive, what's going to happen is we're going to see, um one course of behaviors are picked up by the person because you, you, what the stimulus you experience is the stimulus that you're likely to put back out into the world.
00:11:27
Speaker
So was he really shutting down or was he just ignoring people? Um, Parquet, no less.
00:11:35
Speaker
what why Literally, like, didn't know. Like, just wouldn't do the thing. Was it? like hey Yeah.
00:11:44
Speaker
And that's good. yeah like Like, well, okay, let me rephrase that. It's neither good nor bad. It is. yeah um It's an indication. So um my friend Tara Vance of Neuroclastic, um I believe she's an occupational therapist or speech therapist. I forget. She's an autistic behavior ah autistic ah advocate.
00:12:06
Speaker
And we started out as enemies. Yeah. we we We were not friends. And there was, and there was, but, but because we both have that, that autistic love of trying to understand and explore and connect, we are now good friends, yeah like, like good friends. And um she taught me something very powerful.
00:12:29
Speaker
And that is in the behaviorist community, we say all behavior is communication. Right. Yes, we do. I say that outside of the behavior is communicate. you And, and, and a lot of people outside do as well. And Tara pointed something out. She said, no, it's not all behavior is indication. Right. I think you said that earlier. I like that.
00:12:48
Speaker
Most behavior is communication. And, and I, and I really want to make sure that we get that clear is that all behavior is indication that something. Right. Um, and if you, um, uh, uh,
00:13:05
Speaker
Why am I blanking? um There is always a baby in the backseat. I'm looking it up now because I'm blanking on the name. Fryman. Pat Fryman. There we go.
00:13:16
Speaker
I didn't even have to. I just had to try to recall. I didn't even pull it up. But ah Pat Fryman gave ah a TED Talk. And Pat Fryman is um ah relatively famous...
00:13:29
Speaker
um behavior analyst out. Like he's, he, he's the director of Boys Town, which is a very successful non-coercive behaviorist program. Like when I say non-coercive,
00:13:44
Speaker
i what I can say about it within what I know about it. so i haven't I haven't seen it myself. so And I don't know how much pathology paradigm versus not there is, but um the the the the TED Talk he gave, and I'm going to link i mean give you the link for the Talk. great, thank you.
00:14:04
Speaker
I think that the TED Talk is titled, for those who don't want to look up the link and just want to pull him up, I think it's there's no such thing as a bad boy or a bad kid. um No such thing as a bad boy.
00:14:15
Speaker
Yeah. Is the title of it. But in it, he gives this example. It's a little parable, if you will, of um you're sitting at a stoplight.
00:14:26
Speaker
And when you're sitting at this stoplight, the the light, ah you're behind a car that's in front of you. And it and light turns green. And the car in front just sits.
00:14:38
Speaker
And you're you're you have a little urgency. You're maybe running late to work a little bit. So you bop your horn. Nothing happens. You honk really hard. Nothing happens. Light turns red again. You're just like, oh, man, this idiot in front of me. What the heck is. Yeah. um And then the light goes through another cycle, turns green.
00:14:56
Speaker
You honk your horn, you blare on it and you're just like. And you get out of here, you pop your car in park, you get out, you walk up to the car And you see the mother turned around in her car, in her seat, like straddling the console and administering CPR to her baby. Right.
00:15:20
Speaker
And your emotional state immediately switches because you now understand that the reason for that quote behavior Is that something really important was happening. There was a baby in the backseat.
00:15:38
Speaker
And when we're talking about behavior, any type of behavior, and by the way, behavior is anything a living organism does. So, so like compassion is a behavior. Talking is a behavior. Like when we refer to behavior, we need to make sure we're not just referring to negatively perceived behavior. Right. that's fair But, but like when we see those negatively perceived antisocial looking style behaviors, we need to remember there's always a baby in the backseat.
Ethics and Accountability in Human Services
00:16:06
Speaker
And that's so that, that Pat Fryman and, and what he said there. And, and that's what we have to remember is, is that behavior is an indication. So Is it okay if I go into that? Yeah, yeah. Let's go into a world of disengagement. Sorry, that was my rabbit to chase. No, no.
00:16:23
Speaker
it It's a good rabbit to chase. it's ah It's a critical one. Okay, so... um so Bandura introduced moral disengagement theory. and And there are some quandaries of murrold moral disengagement theory because when we're talking about researching this topic, by its very nature, it's ethically unacceptable for us to create conditions for moral disengagement.
00:16:47
Speaker
so So the research that has been conducted on moral disengagement has all been post facto investigative research opposed to like, because, because ethically, if I'm creating conditions for moral disengagement, then that's unethical. Correct.
00:17:06
Speaker
Yeah. That makes sense. Can you explain what moral disengagement is real quick? ah Yes. So it's, it's a process where with an individual disengages from their environment, disengages from their morality sense.
00:17:21
Speaker
And, um, and therefore is more likely to engage in immoral or amoral behaviors. Um, now when we're talking morality,
00:17:34
Speaker
um we can also superimpose the concept of ethics, so, uh, unethical, immoral. Um, ah ah another way of looking at this is um values yeah cultural values.
00:17:52
Speaker
And, and I will say this. um It does appear that there are some universal values slash moralities that,
00:18:07
Speaker
that that exists within humanity. right um And I'm gonna very briefly mention, ah because I don't wanna go down this rabbit hole too far, but I will briefly mention moral foundations theory, which I just linked in the chat, so that way you have that.
00:18:23
Speaker
But moral foundations theory is a research of primarily by Jonathan Haidt and Jesse Graham, who are ah social psychologists, where they have identified Last time, ah let me count, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.
00:18:42
Speaker
Ten different universal... cultural, like ah human, not cultural, universal morality or or values that humanity holds.
00:18:56
Speaker
And they've done a very good job of researching outside of wealthy, educated, westernized, industrialized countries. Okay, very cool. So they've they've tried to make sure their research was not just within Western culture.
00:19:14
Speaker
um And, and if you want to participate in it, um you can actually, if you go to moral foundations.org, there's a link, link to the questionnaires and, and you can actually be an active participant in the moral foundations research.
00:19:28
Speaker
um And it's really cool, but, When we're talking about moral disengagement, it's that that it's that distancing or numbing effect that that humans do when we're in in situations that increase the probability of us engaging in harmful behavior.
00:19:45
Speaker
And when we're talking about this in the context of of human services, which includes the medical field, which includes behaviorism, which includes basically the way that that disabled people are treated,
00:19:58
Speaker
um These this eight mechanisms of moral disengagement are very observable. and Right. And they're very trackable. And in fact, Bandura presented these moral disengagement in the antecedent behavior consequence format that behavior analysts look at behavior with, which is is really fascinating. And there's actually been behavior analysts who who have analyzed and utilized his research in their work and published papers on it.
00:20:28
Speaker
um But like, so so I'll break down the moral disengagement behaviors. um The first one is moral justification. This is, and I'm reading this, so don't think I'm like reciting this from memory, claims that unethical acts are permissible if they're for the greater good.
00:20:47
Speaker
isn So let's utilize um forced compliance. Okay. As an example, because this is very common. i'm I'm not going to use a straw man. I'm not going to do an extreme example like contingent electric skin shock because that's extreme.
00:21:03
Speaker
I'm going to do forced compliance. I have been guilty of doing forced compliance. When I learned better, did better. Right. So let's let's make sure we're giving ourselves some grace and kindness here because this is not about blame. This is about correcting the problem.
00:21:18
Speaker
um So moral justification and forced compliance. I'm doing this for their own good. First off, forced compliance is an oxymoron.
00:21:28
Speaker
Compliance, um compliance ah as, as a definition is ah the act of complying with wish or command.
00:21:43
Speaker
Okay. So it's, it's a, it's the, it's somebody asks you or tells you to do something and you follow through. Right. Forcing compliance
00:21:55
Speaker
Is impossible. You're making someone else do something. Yes. You're forcing them to do something. So they're not being compliant because they're resisting you. Now you can, you can coerce compliance. There's a difference there. So we can be a little bit more precise and say coerce compliance.
00:22:11
Speaker
um Where basically you, you force them long enough that eventually they do it because they're going to try to avoid the punishing effects and the, and the the traumatic ah impact of resisting. Yeah.
00:22:24
Speaker
and And but that's that's a very unethical and immoral thing. So forcing a child to comply. um When ah now are there again going back to the the question of addressing this within the context of real world examples.
00:22:42
Speaker
Are there cases where we need to force children to do things for their own safety. Absolutely. having a shot or taking medication because it would otherwise that they would otherwise die, preventing them from running into the streets or like, or, or, or, you know, taking away a sharp object or that the, the, yeah, there are kids, but I'm not going to call that compliance.
00:23:09
Speaker
Right. um I'm not going to call that cooperation. I'm not going to pretend that it's something that it's not. It's going to be, I'm doing this because there's a clear and present imminent danger that we need to draw a boundary with.
00:23:24
Speaker
um My favorite example of this is, ah and and I use this for for boundaries, have you seen the episode of MASH where um the little Korean boy accidentally kicks a soccer ball into the minefield and then wanders into the minefield to get it?
00:23:42
Speaker
Maybe I've seen some mash in my day with my dad. I don't remember that episode specifically. I do remember something about minefield. So it's possible that, that, that really stood out to me because that, that was a situation where like it was distressing.
00:23:56
Speaker
Right. And it was terrifying. Like, yes, it was fictional, but you like, just, ah I can just imagine my daughter doing this and me just being like, yeah ah and like, so when we, the boundary is the minefield. Right.
00:24:13
Speaker
Right. um And, and when we're holding a boundary, we're saying this is a no go zone. Like you might be able to walk into that minefield and walk out without getting killed. Right. Yes. Right.
00:24:24
Speaker
Right. But that doesn't mean that you'll be able to consistently do that. And so we need to make sure that this is a no go zone. And and like one of the first things I do when I'm helping parents to learn how to support their child is I identify boundary areas where the child is violating the parent's boundary or vice versa.
00:24:43
Speaker
And we clo we draw clear boundaries. one ah My favorite example was a child who liked to touch his mom's eye. Right. and And she was just letting him do it because she didn't want to to trigger any reactions from him. And she loved her kid. Right.
00:24:58
Speaker
and And my response was, ah, no. Yeah. Like, well, let me show you how to hold a boundary. Yeah. Your hair may be. My hair gets played with a lot. that yeah feel love there and but But then there's also times when we can like we can set a boundary there with hair as well. Like there's circumstances where it's like, hey, you can't play with mom's hair while we're driving or you can't grab mom's hair and jerk Right, right, right.
00:25:24
Speaker
yeah right you Yes, you can play with it and touch it softly. um And then they like then there's the the cooperation piece of communicating. No, I don't want you to do that right now. i don't I'm feeling overstimulated myself.
00:25:39
Speaker
it's It's cooperation. It's it's pro-social behavior. and And we can teach that. So moral justification is the opposite of that. Moral justification is I'm doing this because...
00:25:50
Speaker
Right. I'm going to justify the behavior. So next we have euphemistic labeling. So this is using censored language to rename harmful actions and make them appear less harmful.
00:26:05
Speaker
that This is hard because in the medical industry slash behaviorist industry, we do have things like elopement. Right.
00:26:17
Speaker
And that that that could be classified as euphemistic labeling. It depends on how it's being used. Well, sometimes it goes both ways, right? Like I see elopement used a lot and it's not elopement.
00:26:28
Speaker
Like, yeah, like you can't score like leaving circle time the same way you score running down the street with nobody around. and Like um it's not the same thing. and And so one of the things that I really like that came from the PFA SBT community, which is ah PFA, Practical Functional Assessment Skills-Based Training. So this is a subsection of behavior analysis.
00:26:52
Speaker
um It was ah created by Greg Hanley, um my way you may have heard of my way um like that sort of thing uh just so you know me saying that that pfa sbt created this does not necessarily mean that they are by default trauma informed yes Or neurodiversity aligned.
00:27:13
Speaker
I will say this right now, ah interrupting myself, there is there's no such thing as a therapy or technology that is by default trauma-informed, neurodiversity aligned, affirming, whatever.
00:27:25
Speaker
Because it's the attitude that's taken. Right. Mm-hmm. So so any any technology, speech therapy, ah like occupational therapy, physical therapy, ah behavior analysis, ah DBT, CBT, all of it can be harmful if used incorrectly. And it's it's the attitude of the person who is utilizing it and the underlying assumptions, which is why models of disability are so important. Right.
00:27:55
Speaker
Um, euphemistic labeling. So going back to that, it's censoring that language. Um, PFA SBT, uh, created a term that I absolutely love called assent withdrawal. Yes. I've heard you guys talk about that.
00:28:07
Speaker
Yeah. So withdrawing assent. So assent is a synonym for consent, but consent is a legal term. Assent is something that anybody can do.
00:28:20
Speaker
Assent withdrawal is the individual saying, nope,
00:28:26
Speaker
I'm withdrawing my assent. And i can i can I can track elopement so and define it as elopement and also say, and that's an indication of assent withdrawal. Correct.
00:28:38
Speaker
Yes. Right. so But euphemistic labeling is is is very hard because they it kind of it can apply across the board. And the medical model of disability is fantastic for euphemistic labeling because it's a person with autism. Yep.
00:28:55
Speaker
and And I'm over here like, oh, then I must be a person with parentalism. Or i must be a person with artistry. Or I must be a person with verbosity because I am very verbous verbose. I am a windbag.
00:29:13
Speaker
it's It's so odd because the idea behind it was, well, we're trying to put the person first. But autism is a part of who that person is.
00:29:25
Speaker
and trying to separate that out. This goes back to that mentalistic construct thing that I was talking about earlier, the homunculi it's, it's creating this separation and it's a euphemistic labeling. And this, this is hard to navigate.
00:29:39
Speaker
and And I will tell you this right now for, for those parents out there who are, or, and practitioners are out there.
00:29:47
Speaker
People only know what they know yes when they know it. So, so when I, when I correct myself, I do it. I look for the opportunity. I look for and I try to be help people be receptive.
00:30:00
Speaker
ah and And I try to do it from a kind perspective. um We don't need to be keyboard warriors about this. Right. There are a lot of them.
00:30:12
Speaker
but There are. And I've been one of them. I have done that myself. And sometimes people think that when I'm belaboring a point, I'm being a keyboard warrior and I bring it back to, look, my point is this comes back to the attitude and how we treat people.
00:30:27
Speaker
So like I could give a Flippity dip. You can curse. It's fine. ah But but i'm I'm being silly because I want the people to hear this understand it. The primary audience is Jersey. We curse a lot. Okay. That's fine.
00:30:41
Speaker
Like I dropped the fuck word every once in while too. So that's fine. ah but But I could give a flippity dip about what symbol you use. right If your attitude is we center the humanity of the person.
00:30:58
Speaker
Correct. yeah Right. Like if the your attitude is instead of pathologizing, we see the whole person puzzle piece. Where does it come from?
00:31:10
Speaker
Yeah, I know all about the background of it. And I'm not going to use the puzzle piece because frankly, i it grosses me out. Yeah. Um, but, but I know a lot of people who have like puzzle piece tattoos and they're like, should I get it removed?
Euphemistic Labeling and Inclusive Attitude
00:31:22
Speaker
And my usual thing that I suggest is what if it's getting it, instead of getting it removed, you get the neurodiversity infinity symbol tattooed over the top. Yeah. To show that you grew. Yeah.
00:31:35
Speaker
Because like That's what we're going for. We're going for behavior change. right And and if euphemistic labeling is a means by which we disengage morally from each other and justify behaviors that are harmful.
00:31:51
Speaker
Next is advantageous comparison. So this compares a questionable act with something even more reprehensible to make the questionable act less important or harmless.
00:32:02
Speaker
Hmm. So that this happens a lot in behavior analysis. Well, at least I'm not using contingent electric skin shock. Yeah, which was kind of the root question before, exactly.
00:32:14
Speaker
and like, ah no, like we're talking about an immediate present behavior. This is a deflection away from the behavior. Well, I mean, and there's even just, that shows up in basic parenting. I like lost my cool today and yelled, well, nobody's getting beaten around here.
00:32:31
Speaker
So it's like, but it's like, yeah. So, so it's, it's hard because yeah you, you, you don't want to feel like you're a bad person. Right.
00:32:46
Speaker
Right. But, but I'm going to offer a reframe for a minute. And this actually relates to act just so you know, acceptance commitment therapy. It's, it, it's There is no such thing as a good person and there is no such thing as a bad person.
00:33:03
Speaker
There are people who do good and there are people who do bad and we are the same people. Interesting. I like it. And this actually relates also into, um, other aspects of social sciences where, where people are hurt and marginalized.
00:33:22
Speaker
Um, a lot of times when people are working on, uh, changing their conditioning and their behavior around racism or sexism. So similar.
00:33:33
Speaker
Yeah. It's so similar. Like you someone gets called out for doing something hurtful and they're like, well, I'm not racist. I'm not sexist. I'm like, well, no, you are not racist or sexist, but you did a racist or sexist thing. Yeah. So like this, this advantageous comparison, the way around it is to disentangle ourselves from the idea of I am right.
00:33:57
Speaker
something and just be, I am like, I am, I am the observer. Like the I am is a complete sentence. yeah Stop. And then I do what?
00:34:09
Speaker
And then if you ever catch yourself doing any of these moral disengagement things, take that step back, observe, I am doing this. Yeah. that is not aligned with my values.
00:34:22
Speaker
How do i realign myself and change taste the values? Yeah. And so what's really interesting about all of this is it is a very, um, research based way to say something I felt in my gut for a very long time.
00:34:35
Speaker
um so one of my like biggest career moves was working under a black female founder, um built a company together, sold it into a much bigger company.
00:34:47
Speaker
um, for the first time in my life, really got to see firsthand what barriers exist for ah not just people of color in very corporate organizations, but Black women specifically in very corporate organizations.
00:35:00
Speaker
And it was one of those experiences where once you see it, you can't unsee it. And on top of that, it really taught me that moving through that and getting to a better place as a person, but also as a society, hinged on me being willing to be uncomfortable with my own behavior.
00:35:21
Speaker
Like, and me being willing to say, oh I screwed that up, should have known better. Like, I'll do better next time. And so when I moved into this world where I have a disabled son, there are so many similar themes, but a lot of times what I find And again, no shade. I just had wonderful people throughout school in different places, but I'll be sitting in an IEP meeting and we can't even come to a baseline philosophical agreement because the people across the table are so afraid of letting go of this idea that we're all good here because we're helping special needs kids. And it's like, we gotta like, we have to be okay being uncomfortable because this is the world that they live in.
00:36:05
Speaker
And we're not going to help them. We're not going to move them forward if we're not willing to sort of be in the trenches in that way. And it's a really hard thing to explain to people. It's a hard thing to explain to parents. Like, I'm like, I will curse now. I'm like, I eat shit every day in this department. Like, I don't inherently know what it means to be neuroaffirming.
00:36:24
Speaker
Right. But we have to learn and you can't learn if you're following, volleying between this place of, am I a good person or am i a bad person? Like there's good and bad behavior. And that also goes for keeping our kids safe. Like the best thing I've ever heard about, like, you know, sheltering your kids from abuse is don't look for good and bad people look for good and bad behavior.
00:36:44
Speaker
And you're more likely to get to the root of the issue very quickly. So I think it's just such an interesting trail ah research based. I tried linking something and for some reason it didn't link and I'm going to try getting it again.
00:36:59
Speaker
ah There we go. um So there's a really great book that I cannot recommend enough. And this book actually led to my journey into behaviorism. um Not directly, indirectly.
00:37:12
Speaker
um But the the book is titled Mistakes Were Made But Not By Me. Hmm. um And it's it's a it's a book about why we justify harmful, ah justify foolish beliefs, bad decisions and harmful acts.
00:37:26
Speaker
um And it's available on audio. yeah So for you audiophiles, like will always tell you if it's available on audio. but I will tell you if it's not available on audio. I can still love myself for reading paper books and I just don't have the time anymore.
00:37:39
Speaker
I mean, that there's a lot going on. But ah so I will give a warning. With this book, the first two thirds to three fourths of the book is depressing.
00:37:53
Speaker
It is hard to read. It's hard to listen. yeah um
00:38:01
Speaker
But if you stick through it, the last two third to to to a fourth of it gives you hope. Yeah. and it And it offers, it offers some really great stuff that, that I, that I highly, highly, highly recommend. So um I will mention that, but like when we're talking about any sort of, of disengagement, um the, the way out is through the way out is to acknowledge, address, correct, move forward. I love that. Yep.
00:38:30
Speaker
and and And in fact, that beautifully reflects into the next two moral disengagement pieces, which is displacement of responsibility and diffusion of responsibility. So displacement of responsibility is I was just following the orders of my superiors. Right. Mm hmm.
00:38:47
Speaker
Right. I was just following words. I was just doing what I was told. Well, this is that I'm sorry. This is this. This is the policy I have to follow. Right. um Diffusion of responsibility is distributing accountability from one person ah to a poorly defined group.
00:39:06
Speaker
Yeah. So so the way around a diffusion of responsibility is accountability math. um I my friend Bob taught me this one. I don't know where he got it from or if he came up with it, but ah but I've added to it since accountability math is one divided by the number of people responsible.
00:39:26
Speaker
So if there are 100 people who have responsibility over it, then responsibility is one percent. Right. Right. If there are a million people, then it's a millionth of a percent. Yeah.
00:39:41
Speaker
yeah And, and, uh, and so on and so forth. And the way that you counteract accountability math is radical self-ownership, um, which that's a reference to Jocko Willink's, uh, Ted talk, uh,
00:39:56
Speaker
there's a lot of things I like that Jocko Willink has done. I don't like, like everything he's done, but that Ted talk, ah he is a ah former army ranger, i think retired ranger or seal.
00:40:09
Speaker
And he, he, and he, he did an amazing Ted talk about accountability and radical self ownership. um So, and that leads beautifully into ah distortion of consequences.
00:40:24
Speaker
So that one is misrepresenting the effects of the act as not significant. This one happens a lot, a lot, a lot. I cannot say this enough.
00:40:35
Speaker
When people say, kids are resilient. oh I hate that phrase. Oof.
00:40:42
Speaker
I hate that phrase too, because the research has literally disproven. Yes, absolutely. Like, it's like, ah like, okay, can't, can kids be resilient? Yes. Kids kids can be resilient.
00:40:54
Speaker
However, persistent and consistent exposure over and over and over and over and over to coercive conditions and harmful stimuli literally
Trauma, Adaptation, and Healing
00:41:05
Speaker
impacts individual. And sometimes what you're seeing is not resilience. It's disassociation.
00:41:11
Speaker
which has a ton of implications. What you're seeing is a trauma response. Now I want to do something really important here. i want to, I want to correct an understanding that we have of trauma.
00:41:27
Speaker
So this is the functional contextualist in me coming out. All right. Trauma is a response to an environmental condition. that leads to a rigidity and a lack of flexibility when the environment changes.
00:41:47
Speaker
ah Trauma does not mean you're broken. Right. Well, of course, of course, I'm just thinking about that in a thousand different ways. Yeah. Okay. I will give you an example of trauma and I'm going to take, I'm going to do a big step back yeah and use a biological example.
00:42:03
Speaker
In the Cascade Mountains, which is one of two temperate rainforests and the in the continental US, the Cascade Mountains stretch from ah the top of California all the way up into Canada.
00:42:20
Speaker
um It's beautiful, beautiful rainforest. And in the Cascade Mountains, there are is a specific species of tree frog. And this tree frog for the longest time they thought was three separate species until scientists realized that they were looking at, because they were looking at tadpoles and the way the tadpoles were developing.
00:42:44
Speaker
And then they realized, no, it's the same species, but the tadpoles are developing differently because of signals in their environment. So there were three conditions that, that occurred frequently.
00:42:55
Speaker
Condition number one, the The frog laid the eggs in a pool of water that had no predators in it.
00:43:06
Speaker
Rainforest, so lot of water everywhere. Okay. So the way that the tadpoles would develop would be significantly different than if the tadpole if the frog laid eggs in a pool of water where only insect predator pheromones were present.
00:43:20
Speaker
Okay. Okay. And they would develop differently from when there was a, ah the eggs were laid in a pool of water where insect and fish predator pheromones were present. Right.
00:43:32
Speaker
So, because it drastically different settings, um what the the scientists did is they did a switcheroo where they took tadpoles that were hatched in each of these conditions and And they flip-flopped each of them into the condition that was not matching the pheromone signals in the water that they were in.
00:43:59
Speaker
um Not surprisingly, the mortality rate of the tadpoles that were where no pheromone signals were was 100%. Oh, interesting. For when they were put in the insect or or close to 100%, I should say. <unk> I'm going off of recall, so I could be remembering incorrectly. But it was very high for the insect and insect and fish pheromone waters.
00:44:22
Speaker
um And the tadpoles that were put into water where there were no predators also had a fairly high mortality rate.
00:44:36
Speaker
even though there were no predators because they were stressed out there, their development was not matching their environment. right And when we when we change the way we look at trauma, like, are there going to be permanent impacts to trauma?
00:44:54
Speaker
Yes. Right. but Okay. We're, but what I'm going to say is if we look at trauma and as, being something that occurs, right. we're not We're not assigning a value to it, but we're saying this has happened.
00:45:10
Speaker
Now, how do we adjust the environment? How do we meet the person where they're at? How do we show them how to step down their nervous system?
00:45:22
Speaker
Yes. Okay. I get where this is going. how yeah how How do we change it so that they can adapt to their environment? Right. and And we have compassion. We have understanding.
00:45:34
Speaker
We have care. we We humanize. And we also say, i see your anxiety came from somewhere. and Right. Mm-hmm. and i'm and And I'm going to signal to you over and over and over again that you're safe.
00:45:49
Speaker
This goes back to the PDA stuff, right? Signaling safety. Signaling safety. Exactly what's going on in my head. Absolutely. So, okay. So two more moral disengagement steps. Sorry for all the back and forth. but Dehumanization stat statements. So that is the victim is not being deserved, ah does not deserve fairness because they have done something similarly bad or worse. Mm-hmm.
00:46:14
Speaker
This doesn't necessarily happen often in disability services, but it does happen. Right. Yeah. where the Where the person is dehumanized. um I see this happen more in schools. Yeah.
00:46:27
Speaker
and and And religious-based ah ah attitudes towards disabled people. I mean, does it it is it inclusive of things like not just something they've done, but like something they are, right? Like you have to earn your way into XYZ space.
00:46:42
Speaker
Like you are not ready for that yet, even though every other kid who walks through the door yes And that's actually a great point. So I will correct myself. This does apply to disability services because, oh, well, they can't because they're autistic. Right.
00:46:57
Speaker
this This drives me absolutely nuts. ah the the The latest behavior of ah of of a certain... ah person with egregious amounts of money, uh, who is, who, who has disclosed that, that he is, uh, was diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome.
00:47:21
Speaker
Uh, I'm just like, uh, being autistic or, or being Asperger's does not justify being an asshole. Same page. Yeah. Same page. Like, no, you, you don't get, you don't get a pass.
00:47:37
Speaker
Like if you violate someone's rights and you're disabled, guess what? I'm going to have compassion for you. I'm going to understand what happened. I'm going to try to put it in context. And also you violated their rights.
00:47:49
Speaker
Exactly. Like, um, a little little warning for people. I'm gonna i'm going to mention SA. ah a an autistic man raping ah ah another person is still rape.
00:48:03
Speaker
Yes. It's not okay. Period. it like that There was no consent given. Therefore, no. Unacceptable. like We're going to be understanding of you miss social cues. Right.
00:48:19
Speaker
Right. We're going to be understanding of these sorts of things. And also, no, like someone screaming and shouting, no, no, no. and's no It's very clear. yeah No. Yeah. So no.
00:48:30
Speaker
um Last one is attribution of blame statements. So that's blaming the victim. Yep. Yeah. Now I'm going to bring up something that's not talked about in moral disengagement theory, um but that it relates to moral disengagement theory and there's a lot of research in it.
00:48:51
Speaker
um And, and, and this relates to this last point and something called DARVO. ah DARVO is an acronym for deny attack, reverse victim and offender. ah Yes. So yeah.
00:49:02
Speaker
so From the behavior analytic framework for the behaviorists in the crowd who are like, oh, this is mentalism. How are you talking about this stuff? That's not behaviorism. This is all verbal behavior. Yeah.
00:49:15
Speaker
this this is This is all verbal behavior impacts behavior. This is all languaging. This is all relational frameworks. There's more than one way of looking at it. But these are these are behavioral patterns and strategies that are utilized. Mm-hmm.
00:49:31
Speaker
To disengage from accountability. Yep. and And so Darbo is the abuser denies the wrongdoing or claims that they're not responsible. Hey, that sounds like a world a couple moral disengagement pieces. to attach yeah ah The abuser attacks the victim's credibility, character or motives.
00:49:51
Speaker
um They might accuse the victim of lying or maybe making this about themselves or being overly sensitive or having an ulterior motive like you just want attention. Sounds familiar.
00:50:04
Speaker
And then they reverse the victim and offender. So the the abuser positions themselves as the victim and the victim as the offender. And they might claim that they are being unfairly accused or mistreated. Correct. treated Yeah.
00:50:15
Speaker
um Now, I want to point something out here that all the DARVO, most of the DARVO researcher research has done specifically in cases of um predatory, abusive behaviors towards marginalized peoples where it's criminally abusive and or institutional predatory behavior.
00:50:40
Speaker
But I want to point something out here because I'm going to help to take us. Let's take a step back. If we replace abuser with the person who has caused harm.
00:50:53
Speaker
And then maybe we we take a further step back, but also take a step forward at the same time. This is little bit of ah a paradox here. We say hmm. hu Me.
00:51:06
Speaker
So I'm going to read this from, from an I me, I denied the wrongdoing or claim that I was responsible. Right. Or claimed that I was not responsible. i attacked the other person's credibility, character or motives when it was brought up to me.
00:51:25
Speaker
I positioned myself as the victim and the victim as the offender for bringing this to my attention and claiming that they were being unfair or mistreating me. Right.
00:51:38
Speaker
we This is accountability math 101. when we're When we're talking about working with children, especially children with disabilities or any person who is disabled, their voice is often the most ignored.
00:51:57
Speaker
Remember, right? hold for say 100%. Yep. Right. so So when I talk about this, I'm starting from the most vulnerable person. Mm-hmm. And in fact, Skinner in an interview himself pointed this out. Yes.
00:52:14
Speaker
That we have to be very protective of the most vulnerable people because the most vulnerable people are not able to provide the immediate correction and stimulus that's required to protect themselves like a person who is not vulnerable does. Correct.
00:52:32
Speaker
Yeah. i'm I'm paraphrasing him. No, but that's, that's accurate. But. like It's like it's it's it's my blow beat learning through consequences. yeah And moral disengagement happens because there's not an immediate consequence that is enforceable for the person who has caused her Correct. that made That makes a ton of sense. And as you were talking about that last piece of victim blaming, I was thinking through some experiences that we've had a lot with PDA. Yeah.
00:53:01
Speaker
um And I've talked about this with other podcast guests who dabble more in the PDA world. But one of the trickiest things about the flavor that's going on over here is the vast majority of PDA research and conversation and is with children who are a lot more verbal and have a lot more to say. and so...
00:53:21
Speaker
there is almost more grace in some ways to be able to say like, no, this is demand avoidance. They can't do this right now. They have a huge need for autonomy. Whereas when you have a kid with a delay or the speech delay or who shut down, there's a lot of, oh, they just don't understand what's being asked of them. They have, um and this is not the proper term to use like an intellectual disability or whatever that might be. They just don't understand.
00:53:46
Speaker
um, And that gets really tricky because I saw hand over fist and we were sort of like trying to figure everything out with my son that when I would say things like ABA doesn't work and meaning specifically the ABA program that he was in and it's causing harm, people would shoot back and be like, well, he's not autistic.
00:54:09
Speaker
Or he just doesn't want to do it but like It was always pushed back on him being the problem to some extent. It was never, okay, let's dissect this and see what's really going on.
00:54:22
Speaker
It was always like, it's him. it's not the It can't be the program or the therapy. It's him. And that's not functional contextualism. Right. By definition, that's not radical behaviorism by definition.
00:54:35
Speaker
Now, that doesn't change the fact that a radical behaviorist did that. So I'm not going to i'm not going to diffuse responsibility by saying by saying that, oh, well, they're not a radical behaviorist because they they did that. I'm going to say that person was trained as a radical behaviorist and was representing a radical behaviorist. I actually, i don't know that that was the case. it was through school.
00:54:56
Speaker
Yeah. Well, but, but, it but if it's PBIS positive behavior, PBIS is a, writer is ah it it's a, it's a form of applied behavior analysis.
00:55:07
Speaker
So like that's still a diffusion of responsibility. Okay. That makes sense. or or Or a divorcing of responsibility, if you will, because like, no, this attitude came here. It is present. It has been taught.
00:55:21
Speaker
I went to a graduate program that taught me in this language and terminology. and And I was trained to view it this way.
00:55:33
Speaker
And it it has been me relearning. I'm going to do a quick correction here. There's no such thing as unlearning for anybody who hears about it. Yeah. There's relearning. Okay. Now I'm going to correct myself. There is such a thing as unlearning, but you can't intentionally trigger it. Right. it's So what it is, is that behavior analysis 101 and neurology 101, when reinforcement is withheld, what happens is ah eventually the neural pathway will prune. Yeah.
00:56:07
Speaker
By itself. But... this is reinforcement being withheld is something called extinction. Right. um Extinction is a thing.
00:56:21
Speaker
it it does not, it is neither good nor bad. There are bad applications of it. um Ideally extinction can be, should be utilized in conjunction with a differential. So, so like imagine a differential, and a car where one wheel is, is stuck in the mud and the other is spinning. Yeah.
00:56:39
Speaker
Or you're going around ah a tight corner and one wheel stops and the other is spinning really fast. That's what I'm referencing. So like extinction, if it's utilized, because usually I don't do extinction. i do a like Boundary holding is a type of extinction. Right. That's kind what I was going to point out. It really goes back to the attitude of of what is being extinguished and why. Yeah.
00:57:01
Speaker
Yeah. yeah So, so, uh, but like, ideally I'm going to do differential reinforcement of lower rate of behavior. So it's where the, the other behavior is reinforcement of a lower rate. Well, the higher behavior rate behavior is we're, we're shaping it and reinforcing, um, the behavior that's going to be prosocial. Right.
00:57:18
Speaker
That makes sense. That's going to be more efficient for the person and beneficial to them. Um, but, but, uh,
00:57:27
Speaker
neural pruning is not something we intentionally trigger. It has to be that our neural network does not use it enough that the brain goes, Oh, this is a waste of energy.
00:57:39
Speaker
Right. And, and when we're talking about neural pruning, this can be anything from thoughts that are racist, sexist, whatever, to, uh,
00:57:51
Speaker
you're going to do this one thing, like opening a door a certain way and you bump against the wall. It's muscle memory. um And, and what happens is, is as long as there's not been sufficient reinforcement delivered consistently, eventually the brain will prioritize pruning of that. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
00:58:12
Speaker
so So relearning is what we're going for. And this is really important, especially when we're talking about PDA, but we're we're also talking about any type of of need for any type of learner, um is punishment and extinction don't teach.
00:58:27
Speaker
No, they don't, actually. Like reinforcement teaches. Reinforcement doesn't mean good. Right. Reinforcement just means the behavior was increased. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:58:39
Speaker
Right. So, so like, um, I'm going to use two terms from two different fields of science. Neurology says neurons that fire together, wire together.
00:58:50
Speaker
Radical behaviorism says behavior goes where reinforcement flows.
00:58:56
Speaker
There are two different sayings that are describing the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. one is One is describing it from that mechanical piece of what's actually happening. And one of them is describing it from the consequence piece. Okay. That makes sense.
00:59:13
Speaker
Yeah. and And so we can understand this and then it gets even cooler because I'm going to bring neurology back in. the The more proficient you get at something, the more the reinforcement is available, the more you get that muscle memory response. Right.
00:59:27
Speaker
Mm-hmm. But it's actually not actually muscle memory, it's neural memory. And the neural memory that's being formed is myelination. so So what it is, is it's it's the this little fatty tissue forms around the neuron that increases the speed of the neural firing.
00:59:44
Speaker
And interestingly, there's some emerging research that shows that certain children who have ah so have a hard time forming routines and need a lot of support with routines have a hard time forming myelination. Oh, interesting.
00:59:59
Speaker
Of their neurons. It's very emerging research. i And I wish I could give you the articles, but ah but but I only recently read them. I forgot to say I do that way too much. but But like...
01:00:12
Speaker
remember when ah when we very first started in the first episode where we we talked about, i mentioned that there are three things that control behavior within an environment, phylogeny, ontogeny, culture, nature, nurture, culture, or society. Yeah.
01:00:29
Speaker
if you if you see the indicators that the individual is struggling to form those those those pathways, we don't have to go get some sort of formal diagnosis to be able to see that.
01:00:42
Speaker
All we do is we create some biopsychosocial disability, like model of disability oriented approaches. So we create visual schedules, we create accommodations and, and, and that helped the person because it's not about like, it's not about whether or not you're neurodivergent or not, because neurodivergent is framed within the context of diverging from the accepted. Correct.
01:01:08
Speaker
yeah So, so the, the goal of
Biopsychosocial Model vs. Medical Model
01:01:11
Speaker
neurodiversity is to remove, ah so or change the society from being one where there are no neurodivergence.
01:01:20
Speaker
It's everybody is neurotypical because everybody's experience is valid. And so um this links into helping parents navigate the medical model of disability pathology paradigm.
01:01:34
Speaker
Yes. And the functional contextual paradigm approach of yes, insurance and practitioners are going to frame things from the pathology Right. And then what we're going to do is we're going to walk in and we're going to say, okay, biopsychosocial rights-based, like social model, like basically is in the biopsychosocial, but biopsychosocial expands the social model. So I don't necessarily have to name social model.
01:02:02
Speaker
um But like we we walk into this, we have this conversation where the practitioner says, well, your child is disabled. um ah you you have a child with disability. I'll give you a perfect example that happened something happened the other day.
01:02:19
Speaker
um And just so you know, I bit my tongue because it wasn't the right time to say something. But when the time comes that I work with this other professional, I'm going to address this. And I already addressed it with the parents so the parents were aware.
01:02:32
Speaker
But like I was in a meeting with ah parents and their doctor a feeding therapy doctor because there was restricted eating. And there was some medical causes to this. And the parents, the doctor advised that we, we impose a strict structure of food is available consistently on a schedule right between these times.
01:02:52
Speaker
We're making sure that preferred foods. We're not restricting, which I was like, if, if he had said, restrict, I would have immediately been like, ah, nope. But that but it was like it was just establishing that pattern of when food's available, food's available. When it's not available, it's not available.
01:03:09
Speaker
we're We're trying to make a clear signal. When it's here, we eat it. When it's not here, we don't. And then this is the pathology paradigm piece the that the doctor brought in. Bless him.
01:03:22
Speaker
Autistic people, ah sorry no. People with autism function better on a rigid structure. Not true. Not true.
01:03:35
Speaker
um now Now, here's where I reframe it is when your nervous system is consistently dysregulated and you're consistently under threat.
01:03:50
Speaker
Mm hmm.
01:03:53
Speaker
Your body craves homeostasis and needs rigidity to be able to get back to a point where you're not under threat. you're yeahre youre youre you're you're Your nervous system needs to downregulate so that you can function.
01:04:09
Speaker
So therefore, consistent structure while the person's body is adapting. And that consistent structure may need to be long-term. Right.
01:04:22
Speaker
Yeah. Right. um and and And consistent structure may need to be an accommodation. Right. But no, autistics do not thrive on rigid structures.
01:04:37
Speaker
It's nervous systems that are constantly in dysregulation ah crave rigid structures so that there is No surprises. Right.
01:04:49
Speaker
Yes. ah So, so like I didn't have to challenge the doctor right there that right then. Like I, I, I simply helps reframe it with parents because literally the same day I had the caregiver coaching session. I don't call parenting. Yeah.
01:05:05
Speaker
It's caregiver coaching because you know how to parent. ah I'm a coach. I'm here to yeah support you and and and refine your game. But like I met with them, we talked about it and, and we're like, okay, so this is, this is what he's getting at. And I helped reframe.
01:05:20
Speaker
um When I um ah let me, let me pull it up because my I recently just finished a report that I submitted to insurance um with medical necessity. yeah ah Like like all that all that fun all that fun stuff that we're required to add in there.
01:05:45
Speaker
And I get so often, I get ah people who are like, well, you know, we have to ah X, Y, and Z because this is... the medical model is this. And I'm like, that that's not the medical model. That's the medical industry.
01:06:02
Speaker
I'm trying to see if I can find this. Cause I, the, my wording was, I, I took the, the medical model terminology and I tweaked it. Yeah.
01:06:13
Speaker
um So that was biopsychosocial. And it was a very simple word change. And I'm not recalling off the top of my head. So i want to read it. I won't say any children's names. So everybody knows like that. um it's It's simply the way I phrased it. ah Medical necessity.
01:06:33
Speaker
So I'm going to give a fictional name of Susan. hmm. So the original medical necessity fraing framing was given Susan's deficits in independent daily living skills per Vineland three personal subdomain and X and Y, Z score in this assessment.
01:06:56
Speaker
I'm not going name the assessment because I don't want to. Yeah. Vineland's very generic. um Instead of it being deficit, I changed it due to given Susan's difficulties with independence in daily living per.
01:07:09
Speaker
Mm hmm. Notice what I said Difficulties, yeah. Not difficulties, not deficit. Because it's not a deficit. It's a difficulty. Like the person is not broken. Yeah.
01:07:20
Speaker
It's they need support. there's Yes. Need support. and and And like i'll say I'll say it over and over and over again. Every human who has ever lived has experienced disability because we were all born infants. Right.
01:07:36
Speaker
And if you live long enough, you're going to experience disability again. Exactly. And again, and again, and a society that is accommodating and accepting of disability is a society that is accessible by everyone.
01:07:53
Speaker
ah Like we, we want to like, everybody's like autism awareness. Great. I'm aware of autism. Now what? Okay. i Autism acceptance. Great. I accept autism exists. Okay. Autism inclusion. Cool. Cool.
01:08:07
Speaker
but awareness, acceptance, inclusion are stepping stones to belong. Oh my God. I can't believe you just said that. I posted a podcast today about my son's nature school, um which is not like run by people who have experience with ah special needs kids or autistic kids.
01:08:27
Speaker
And one of the things that I have been like blown away by, we talk about in the podcast, is the the founder's approach. Her name is Claudia, and she's like, I just treat kids as humans. And that when when a class comes in, like I'm paying attention to what everybody needs.
01:08:44
Speaker
Like some kids, you know, need to do X, Y, Z before they can sit down or write whatever it is. She goes, and because we're needs based, like it's really easy to accommodate someone like Porter.
01:08:56
Speaker
Like we just, and I had a kind of a moment and I haven't posted it yet, but it's going to my personal like social. I'm like, that's kind of the root of belonging. Right. Like fitting in is like not rocking the boat. Right.
01:09:09
Speaker
And I think we all focus on fitting in sometimes for our kids so that they can have certain experiences. But at the end of the day, what we really want is for them to belong and they can't belong in a space that is not acknowledging and meeting their needs in whatever that capacity is.
01:09:26
Speaker
um ye So very interesting that you said that because I've been mulling over that post for quite a bit this morning. ah a A quick brief, like I love the full quote, but I'll give a very because we're, we're we're this is going to be long anyways, you might have to. I will have to Or more. That's exactly what I was referencing in my head.
01:09:51
Speaker
sure True belonging does not require you to change who you are. It requires you to be who you are. Thanks everyone for listening to that full episode. I thought it was really great and love the content there. um i am launching this on a Tuesday, so I have to go back and pull some more in-depth show notes and make sure you guys have all the references, but those will be there shortly.
01:10:11
Speaker
ah Please, if you have questions, thoughts, comments, drop them to us on Instagram and DMs or over email, we'll be happy to chat with you about those. And we're looking forward to both parts three and four, which will happen shortly.
01:10:25
Speaker
This Friday, we are going to feature an inclusion episode with Sam Dresen. He is the founder of Changing Perspectives, a nonprofit that I am on the board of. And he just has some amazing boots on the ground insight of what it means to really champion for inclusion within schools. So really excited for that conversation. You get two episodes this week.
01:10:46
Speaker
um So please check back in and we will talk to you soon.