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Problem #12: Chasing "Interesting"
180 Plays1 month ago
This week, Tracy and Kristian discuss the impossible-to-define goal of what makes a creative work "interesting." Sometimes we can get lost in the "rules," or fixated on inspirations we want to duplicate, or we even get too wrapped up in what we think our audience wants, and in doing so we make choices that favor the safe road, only to find what we've created uncompelling--even boring. In trying to give ourselves guidance on this esoteric topic, we explore playing the "what if" game, recount some metaphorical anecdotes from Tracy's theatrical lighting design career, and even cite the works and advice of one of the world's most interesting creative artists, the recently passed David Lynch. RIP.
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The Han Cluster® Role Playing Game Website: https://hancluster.com
Immaterial Plane: https://immaterialplane.com/
David Lynch on creativity:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJSr6yUnKYk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2RFMCmfRmc
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Designing Problems RPG'
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Designing Problems RPG podcast, where we explore RPG development and all the intentional and unintentional problems we create along the way. I'm Christian Serrano. And I'm Tracer Sizemore. We're your hosts for this endless pursuit
Listener Feedback and Inspiration
00:00:18
Speaker
of validation. And this week, we're going to talk about problem number 12, chasing interesting.
00:00:42
Speaker
So Tracy, before we get started, I want to take a quick second because one of the things that I have noticed and have really sort of loved as a ah product of our podcast, because I want to give us a little bit of kudos here. I have seen a number of instances on our server and even people just reaching out personally to me. And I don't know if you've had this.
00:01:05
Speaker
people who have actually genuinely been inspired to create and to do something and to just put something out there that has just filled my heart, honestly. And I think it's awesome to to hear that. So thank you to anyone and everyone who's shared those stories.
Exploring 'Chasing Interesting'
00:01:23
Speaker
Um, and, uh, it makes for me, at least I'm sure for you, it, it makes me feel like, uh, like we're doing something, something good here.
00:01:33
Speaker
Yes, it definitely, it definitely helps. It helps to know that that's happening. I mean, I don't know, you know, I feel like I'm, I'm, uh, winging it the whole time, but, um, I really do appreciate when people share those kinds of things. Cause it really, uh, makes us feel pretty good about what we're doing. Yeah. So thank you. Apparently what we're doing is interesting.
00:01:56
Speaker
Apparently. now One interesting is is a whole other topic and that that's what we're about to explore. yeah so why don't you because i think you I know you have some thoughts on this. Do you want to kick off?
David Lynch's Influence and Storytelling
00:02:10
Speaker
I do want to kick off. First, i want to like this is this is one of the few times we'll we'll be timely, but David Lynch just died.
00:02:17
Speaker
And um he was a huge inspiration to me and and to many, many others. um He inspired how I write horror. He inspired how I create. um Some of his movies are some of my favorite movies ever. Mulholland Drive is one of my very favorite movies in the world. And um more than that, he was ah he was a ah positive and happy person.
00:02:47
Speaker
And so that dynamic, that dichotomy, that difference between the sort of psychological horror slash weird underpinnings of his work ah contrasted with a genuinely kind and well-liked person, is is it feels very similar to how I am, in in a way. um Because I am that way. I'm i'm a 9, I'm an Enneagram 9, I get along with people very well, I have the best friends you could ever hope for, and yet I am capable
00:03:28
Speaker
of creating stories that are very dark and hopefully that I think are also quite beautiful in their darkness, right? And that's what David Lynch did.
Subjectivity in Storytelling
00:03:39
Speaker
The reason I bring him up and the reason i i I mourn his passing, but also the reason it's inspired a little bit of this podcast um is because he was always chasing interesting, right? He was trying to find the stories and the ideas that he felt were compelling enough to risk everything to tell.
00:04:07
Speaker
you know And that's where the inspiration comes from. i That's part of part of my ah sort of compulsion to do this particular episode, Chasing Interesting, because I have stories of my own. And what Interesting is, is different for everybody. But at the same time, it's sort of, I hate this expression, the know it when you see it thing.
00:04:33
Speaker
But it's true in this case because it's really hard to pin down and give specific instructions on how to create it. Yeah, yeah but i yeah it's it's it's a subjective thing. And and I think that um there's There's different definitions of interesting that and I don't mean
Avoiding Formulaic Stories
00:04:53
Speaker
subjectively in that regard. i thats I think there's objectively different definitions of interesting, right? There's weird interesting, there's you know curiosity interesting, there's um this is my favorite thing interesting, right? um or you know i'm I'm really passionate about that thing interesting. And and so I think this is gonna be an interesting conversation.
00:05:16
Speaker
um because we as writers of adventures and settings, um, we are putting what we think is interesting down on paper. Hopefully, hopefully. Right. And so to that point, like, how do we know if this is interesting to someone else?
Breaking Storytelling Patterns
00:05:41
Speaker
You, um, you mentioned a quote from the peg style guy,
00:05:45
Speaker
Yes. in In our notes, i have it's yeah it's not a direct quote, I don't think, but it's paraphrasing. At the very end of the latest style guide for a Pinnacle, Shane says, above all, like over over everything else in the style guide, the most important thing is to to write to write interesting, to be interesting. yeah and And you can fix bad grammar, bad style guide problems, but you can't fix interesting. And it sounds glib.
00:06:15
Speaker
right? It sounds like, well, all right, then I'll just write interesting. But the but the thing is, I think what he's meaning there, is, I mean, he I know Shane, because and and I know i know what he what he generally thinks of as interesting, right? But what I think can happen is people who are designing this kind of work can get so caught up in what they've seen before, what they liked about it,
00:06:46
Speaker
And then trying to follow the rules, all the rules that they have to follow. yes you know that And some of them which are some of them are are made up stupid rules. Yeah, I think i think sometimes what we do as humans, we look for patterns. We're really good at looking at looking for patterns and finding patterns. and so i think often we look at adventures that we've run, read, whatever, and or played in, and we end up mimicking thinking, Oh, I can do this. I can write an adventure that follows this pattern that I've observed. Yes. And that pattern, you know, I think, I think there's, there's, there's a comfort and familiarity that we find.
00:07:29
Speaker
Um, in the media we love and the things we consume, the things we observe, uh, and, and we fall a little bit into a trap, you know, love i've duplicated. I love this. I want to duplicate it. I want to make it, I
Value of Creativity over Polished Work
00:07:44
Speaker
want to do it again. Exactly. Right. And that can result in something that's falls flat. Yeah.
00:07:56
Speaker
Right. like Or you're trying to follow rules that other people have given you, like yeah on this podcast, for example. When Tracy or Christian says, oh my gosh, don't ever do that. Don't do this, do this. We try not to say don't ever do that or never always do this, but you might take away some of those things. Right. And what I what i want to say from the bottom of my heart is sometimes When you're following these rules, and sometimes you don't even know you're following the rules, and and one of these things gets in the way of something that's maybe more interesting than what you have, throw that thing out yeah and forget about it. Because especially if you feel like this path is much more interesting to me.
Orson Welles and Creative Freedom
00:08:50
Speaker
then if I follow this particular rule or if I if i if i am trying to do this particular thing that that we all know that everybody's gonna want, right? yeah Or whatever that whatever that particular rule is. um Because as Shane says, the interesting path is better than the polished perfect path.
00:09:13
Speaker
yeah You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. It's funny you mentioned David Lynch because I was just reminded of um an interview I saw recently on YouTube or in a short or whatever. I don't know.
00:09:25
Speaker
And it was with Orson Welles talking about Citizen Kane. And somebody was asking him, like, how did you come up with these shots? And dadada he's like, I didn't know what I was doing. yeah like i don't I had no idea what I was doing. I just did what I thought was interesting. right like He just did what he thought would be cool. hes he didn't know understand He didn't understand anything about lighting.
00:09:47
Speaker
cinematography, nothing. He just did it. And 20 something when he did Citizen Kane, which follows my mind. and And in that video clip, they're showing, you know, clips of shots and cuts and things like that. And I'm like, wow. Like, yeah, like, cause I've seen that movie at least twice.
Desire for Unique Impact
00:10:09
Speaker
Yeah. and And I, but I forget sometimes it's not until I see it again that I'm like, God, these shots, that lighting, that, you know,
00:10:16
Speaker
amazing, absolutely amazing. So, you know, there's someone who didn't check the boxes. No, right. You know, even if you hate it, even if you're one of these people who's like, yeah, oh, this is supposed to be great. And it's really, and I didn't like it that much. Well, it's a really interesting movie in many, many ways, whether you liked it or not.
00:10:40
Speaker
Yeah. And David Lynch's, his stuff is exactly the same. way Twin Peaks. People have watched Twin Peaks and they're like, ah what is this? What's happening here? And then other people are like, this is amazing. What is this? It's just so weird. Yeah. I mean, yeah some of his stuff is so strange and yet there's something, I mean, the outpouring that I'm seeing on Facebook for David Lynch is like I, like I said to Christian before we started, super bittersweet to me because it's It really hurts my heart yeah to to scroll Facebook and read these tributes. It hurts me. I have to stop after a while. How ah how it touches everybody's lives. And yeah yeah and yet i mean I love it. And yet it is it just hurts to have him gone because he's a he's a unique voice who will never be duplicated.
Unique Twists in Game Settings
00:11:29
Speaker
yeah And To a certain degree, I think we all want to feel that if as creators. Yeah. Right? We want to be remembered. Right. We want to have an impression, leave an impression. yeah We want to, uh, we want, yeah. I think we talked about this on one of our, maybe our first episode about wanting to touch people's lives and leave something legacy. I do. like I do. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm not, I'm no David Lynch. I know that, but man,
00:12:02
Speaker
yeah I'm trying, you know, in my own way in the in the yeah and with my own vision, I'm trying. And there's, and I think you should too. i think I'm talking to everybody. I think you should. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody should. i And I think going back to Shane's quote from the style guide, I think I know we're, I know we're focusing on the word interesting.
00:12:26
Speaker
But I think to Shane's point, what what maybe what he's really saying is don't be boring. Don't be boring. Don't do the same thing that everybody's done where your adventure could be replaced with somebody else's. That's my interpretation of that at least. You know, so, so going back to those patterns, right? Challenge the assumptions, right? You know, when you when you're like, Oh yeah, we'll have this happen, then this happened, this happened. It's like play a game of what if,
00:12:54
Speaker
Yes. What if, what, what, what if you subverted that expectation? What if, you know, then maybe you're working on a setting and it's like, I don't know, let's say a zombie setting and instead of like, you know, the world was just completely gone, it's destroyed and so on. What if humanity reclaimed the world, but zombies still existed? What would the world look like?
Encouraging Unique Voices in RPGs
00:13:21
Speaker
Now that's interesting to me. It's very different from the typical, like, yeah, the world's just gone to crap yeah and everybody's, yeah, humans are terrible. You're you're not going to survive, you know, yeah but like, what if we did, you know, what if, what if there was, you know, a whole global effort to, you know, really rally and and and try to get it under control and we did. Right. But the zombie virus is still there. You know, and I think, I think that's a good example of, of the what if game.
00:13:50
Speaker
Yeah. And the thing is, if you find that interesting, like you've got to figure out what's, what's interesting about it to you and then just go all in on it. Yeah. Necessary evil. yeah What if all of Earth's heroes were dead and the super, you know, super's game was villains, right? Like what if, what if Earth lost the war against the aliens? Yeah.
00:14:14
Speaker
and you know That makes it interesting. Yeah, and and this this transitions into that that thing that Savage Worlds tends to do, and this is why this this is Shane's influence, is like what makes it different. yeah like We can do a Star Wars type setting. you know We can do that kind of thing, but what's the twist? What's the thing that makes us want to play this game rather than just a Star Wars game? Right.
00:14:42
Speaker
I think HonCluster has that. It's not easy to come up with. I'll tell you right now, it is not easy. but um And it probably doesn't have to have it. It's just it's just it's just the way that Savage Worlds tends to tends to go, tends to work, like the the the creators tend to think. And I wanted it because yeah I wanted, again, like like David Lynch or like Stanley Kubrick, I want to have my own voice. I want to i want to express something that's not something you're going to see everywhere.
Adding Unique Elements to RPGs
00:15:21
Speaker
right you know It's not something that's easy to find. Yeah. And that may appeal to less people and that's just kind of the way it's going to be. But it also, those people who do love it will love it, love it. Yeah. That's, that's the David Lynch effect. Right. Like, you know, it's, it's, it's tempting to do, uh, I want to do Greyhawk with Savage Worlds. Right. I want to do something like that. Um, I mean, but really like anybody could kind of do that.
00:15:55
Speaker
Right? Like what is interesting about your setting that somebody's going to buy your setting and invest in it. Um, as a GM, I could just say, I'll just take Greyhawk and just take these creatures out of the bestiary and you know, make a wizard that's evil and done, you know.
00:16:12
Speaker
you know i mean And there's something to be said about like when you're picking a system, if you're converting something to a system, of course, the system, we talked about this system, brings its own vibe that makes it interesting. yeah right that yeah That's a valid thing. sure um But if we're talking about, say, a story, an adventure, you know we we want to try to do something that isn't the same cookie cutter pattern of you know the adventures meet in a tavern and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:16:41
Speaker
Um, but it's hard. It's hard. I just, I don't want to do that. I don't, I want to find ways to subvert expectations. Right. And it, it's hard to do that with every iteration of an adventure that you do. Oh, it totally is. Right. Like, you know, sometimes it's okay not to, but it' it's just like, yeah you know, I think it's worth thinking about. I think it is. I don't know. Maybe I'm, maybe I'm wrong, you know, but I, I, I,
00:17:11
Speaker
Man, if it's if it's, I'm just looking for something different. You know, ironically, I also sit here and I'm like, man, I really would love like just a staple fantasy campaign for Savage Worlds.
00:17:26
Speaker
a ah You know, you know what I mean? Like I still want something like that, but, um, and that's
Crafting Compelling Adventures
00:17:33
Speaker
that's okay. I think that's, but that's legit. I mean, we have Savage Pathfinder, right? That's legit. We have Pathfinder already, but now we have it in Savage roles, which I think brings a different tone as you know, what I was saying earlier, but, um, yeah, I, so what, what do you think of when, when you think of that quote, right? You can't fix boring.
00:17:54
Speaker
Well, I think of a lot of adventures that I've that i've read that I ah just like, yeah, it's all right. Yeah. It's okay.
00:18:06
Speaker
You know, yeah, the thing, you know, your bike's been stolen, whatever. The PC group is going to try to find the bike, but there's no real well-placed clues to figure it out. There's no interesting things going on around it, interesting characters, interesting, like it's just cut and dry. It's just kind of there. Yeah.
00:18:32
Speaker
Right. And it's, it's easy to fall into the trap of doing that because you're just like, well, I'm, I'm writing for a, I'm writing for Savage worlds or I'm writing for, for a, a, a system or or a company that I've not written before at all. I got to get, I got to write something that's good enough for them. Right. yeah And you can think in terms of that and forget that first and foremost, you want something compelling. Yeah. Something unique.
00:19:01
Speaker
rather than safe.
Pitching Unique Ideas
00:19:04
Speaker
Right. I mean, Shane wants something compelling rather than safe. If you're going to go safe, I'm telling you right now, Shane's not going to be as interested in it. Right.
00:19:19
Speaker
And that's tricky, especially for new people. Cause you're just like, Oh, what do I do? How do I, how do I, how do I do this? So that, so that it gets published and and I can say, I've gotten a published thing out there. Yeah. Cause there's, there's that fear that it's going to be too out there two out there and then off putting and where they're going to be like, uh, you know, we're not feeling this right. you You know, is there a process in your experience where you bring an adventure to say to pig,
00:19:47
Speaker
and you're kind of you're kind of pitching the idea of it before. Absolutely. You invest in it. That's that's the best way to do it, because there's there's a couple of reasons why to do that. is Number one, as creatives, as as somebody who I've run into this as the creator of HongCluster, I don't want people just inundating me with ideas about their adventures that they want to create for home games.
00:20:18
Speaker
Partly because I don't want them to accuse me of stealing their ideas if I write something up at some point later. right This is the same thing with with with Weird Al, why he doesn't take suggestions yeah for what songs he parodies or what the topics of those parodies would be. mean He doesn't look. He doesn't read his emails like that.
00:20:42
Speaker
doesn't look at them so that he can say, these are my ideas, I'm not stealing from anybody. right right And so the best way to do this, especially as a producer, is to have people pitch you ideas, but not give you full written things. Don't let them give you full written things. Because first of all, they're probably wasting their time. And second of all, you haven't given them a contract.
Balancing Originality and Guidelines
00:21:10
Speaker
right know So the the the process usually is, and it's been as me as a writer with Torque Eternity, with ah Savage Worlds, I pitched the ideas to Shane. I said, oh he says, I need a gifted, arcane background adventure for Suede. I said, okay, here's what I'm thinking. I think it would be fun to do a possible nuclear meltdown at a nuclear power plant with some dimensional stuff. And then the PCs are all these sort of low level sort of like, uh, with the gifted, they each have one power each and they they have, they have powers. mean And he's like, awesome. That sounds really interesting. And I think it was interesting. I think it was interesting because you know, we basically are are threatening a Chernobyl like nuclear disaster and earthshattering yeah we have to stop it. right That sounds interesting to me. You know, it sounded interesting to Shane too, but I didn't have to, I didn't write it.
00:22:04
Speaker
until the pitch was accepted was presented yeah and accepted. And same with the Torg eternity stuff that I've done. I pitched each Delphi mission that I that i wrote, either to Darryl or to Greg, um before I wrote it. And they accepted the pitch and I said, great, awesome, I'm gonna write it up. That way, you know they can that can tell whether it's an interesting idea. That's great, Tracy. Okay, that's great. I'm glad for you. But has there been a situation where they came back and were like, this is this is boring. No. You're just that good. Okay. Nevermind. Well, i have had I've had had, Ed and Preston asked me to adjust, rewrite a little bit of Violet Evans because it was too close to one of their Savage Tales. Oh, interesting. Okay.
00:22:54
Speaker
And so I'm like, okay. That was coincidence though. That wasn't epic. No. Cause I really looked, I was, it was one of the savage tales that was super, super short. Uh, okay. And I was like, Oh, but what if this could be expanded like something like this? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I get you. It wasn't exactly okay that, but they saw it, that it was too close and I'm like, Oh, okay. I'll fix it. You know? And so, and I did, you know, I fixed it, but it wasn't because it wasn't interesting. It was because it was too close to something else.
Refining Ideas through Feedback
00:23:24
Speaker
So was that a a, you were like, I'm taking this specific thing and I'm expanding it, or was it more of a, this was a pattern I saw and you were creating it, you know, kind of coincidentally. It was a pattern and I was creating it in my way. Yeah. Okay. You know. Yeah.
00:23:42
Speaker
So, I mean, yeah, that we're getting a little off, I guess the interesting part, but but the but the pitch slash get feedback yes right process, I think is an important and useful one for yeah people who are trying to design their own settings and then kind in and then contracting others to write for them.
00:24:03
Speaker
Yeah. And I guess what I was fishing for was the scenario where the response is this is not interesting. Right. And then you have to come back and like, okay, what is interesting? You're coming back to that question. Yeah. I haven't experienced it. Yeah. Okay. That's fair. Yeah. Um, because the, the people who have pitched stuff to me, I kind of liked. Yeah. And when I've pitched to others, usually they accept them and that's that.
00:24:31
Speaker
Let's say we're not dealing with writing for a publisher, but we're writing for ourselves for as a publisher.
Using 'What If' Scenarios
00:24:41
Speaker
I think this is one of those cases where maybe having that that circle of trust, right that that that group, that core of of your people to bounce it off of. We're like, hey, is this this is I'm thinking of writing this. Does that sound interesting? Yeah, it's good. yeah Do you want to play this?
00:25:01
Speaker
Like I'm sure darre people who are willing to say the truth, right? Yeah. Daryl drinking. Uh, I think is, is probably good in that regard, right? He's going to call it out. He's great because he doesn't, he doesn't, out he never outright says that's boring. Don't do that. Uh, it's more like,
00:25:19
Speaker
he just, he, Daryl is great because he'll just riff off a million ideas. Oh, you could do this. You could do that. You could do that. Oh, yeah. That's, that's, yep. That's better. Yeah. That's a good idea. I could incorporate that. Right. Or that's terrible. No, I won't over. I won't tell him it's terrible, but I'll ignore what I don't think resonates with me, and then I'll pick up on the stuff that I think is cool, and I'm like, oh, that's a good idea. That's really interesting. And then and then we'll bat it around for a little while, and then I'll figure out how to incorporate it, or not, you know depending. But it's never it's never a, ah, it's boring. Yeah, that's it's constructive. Yeah, it's much more constructive than that.
00:26:03
Speaker
which is obviously helpful, right? You don't just, it's boring. Doesn't, that doesn't steer you, right? Yeah. I don't, I don't ever say that as feedback. I'll say, I'll say instead, I guess I have run into this where I all say, well,
00:26:16
Speaker
What about this? What about, what about this idea? the What if I don't, you know, the, what if, the, what if, and that way, ah hopefully I'm inspiring them to look at it a little differently and then they'll come out of it with a little bit more direction in, in what they can do to make it more
Finding a Unique Creative Voice
00:26:33
Speaker
compelling. Yeah. And I think some, some really good examples. Um, I'm just going to prattle off a few quick ones here. Um,
00:26:45
Speaker
Well, Eberron, right? We'll start with that one. yeah um That's what if magic was taken to its logical conclusion, right? um Midnight. What if Sauron won?
00:26:57
Speaker
um Deadlands. What if supernatural evil was real or just supernatural powers we were we real? In the old West. And what would that look like in the old West? Yeah. Right? You know, like, um,
00:27:14
Speaker
Yeah, and i so I i think... I'm really thinking that that what if concept is really kind of key to interesting. Now I don't know how David Lynch, for example, might've used what if, or maybe he did, you know, maybe it's just all just swimming in his brain. He the way he describes his fishing for ideas. The ideas are out there. They're they're in the water and and he he yeah he fishes for them and the shallow waters, you're going to get small ideas.
00:27:47
Speaker
But in the deep waters, you're going to get the big ideas. That's how he analogizes it. That's pretty cool. It is pretty cool. you Listen to him talk about it. It's much better. and I feel like his work too, and this is something to think about as a writer.
00:28:02
Speaker
but his work too is also kind of a collection of ideas. yeah Like when you're watching Twin Peaks, it's not one thing. It's not one, no. And he'll, he'll say the, the way he says is it's, it's sort of an iterative process. It's like your ideas will come and you'll get this other idea and another idea. And then suddenly you're meshing them together and something else happens, you know? yeah That's just the way he described it. He's better at it than me. So cool. So, so cool.
00:28:28
Speaker
But I wanted to to to mention some metaphorical examples, yeah like ah not to not to answer the question because we haven't answered anything here.
From Technical to Creative Expression
00:28:41
Speaker
And i and we know that. This is an esoteric, sometimes we have these esoteric topics that we like to explore and it's worth exploring them because um Boring is boring. And i I can't tell you what makes it interesting. All I can tell you is you don't want to be boring.
00:29:01
Speaker
And one of the things I used to be, and I so i mean i still am, i have I have an MFA in lighting design from San Diego State University. And I was a lighting designer for a while and I've won awards doing it. I'm pretty good at it. I just haven't done it in a while proper. But back when I was in my undergrad days and and finalizing my degree and and doing my final project and stuff,
00:29:26
Speaker
I had this professor named Buddy, and he was a mentor of mine. We had a complicated relationship, but um he was a mentor. and At first, I was like, I'm following the rules of lighting, right? Just like you're following the rules of writing or following the the style guide or whatever. I'm following the rules. Can you see the actors? Great.
00:29:49
Speaker
Awesome. Can you hear them because you can see them? Fantastic. Yes. you're You're ticking those boxes, right? Yeah. And Buddy was looking at one of my lighting cues. He's like, yeah, I can see the actors. It looks fine. It looks it looks perfectly you know presentable. Technically. But it's not interesting. Right. Right. And I'm like, aha.
00:30:13
Speaker
It was a light bulb moment for me. No pun intended. For whatever yeah for whatever reason, like it was at that moment that I started to understand yeah because i had I had mastered enough of the basics to say, okay, he's trying to tell me something. I've i've hit the basics, but this is boring.
00:30:35
Speaker
What can I do? And then I messed around with it for a bit. And Buddy's like, there you go. There so and it And from then on, I understood. I'm like, oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. in a In an abstracted sense, you say you messed around with it. What was that process of of finding what was not boring, I guess?
00:31:03
Speaker
it was It was finding a way to present the scene. I guess I think I was more rigidly following the rules than I needed to be. Like, I'm like, okay, my candle system, 45 degree on each side, blah, blah, blah. Backlight, top light, I need to have a three-dimensional figure on stage, blah, blah, blah. But I think I was following too so too strictly.
00:31:24
Speaker
And when I started to say, okay, let's forget that for a second. we know I know the rules. I've clearly demonstrated the rules, but he has acknowledged that I've demonstrated the rules. Now, how do I break the rules so that I'm still following the rules?
00:31:37
Speaker
So it's like the, it's like the jazz analogy. Learn the rules, you know, regarding music, right? And then you know what rules to break and how to break them. And then you know what to break.
Breaking Rules for Engagement
00:31:48
Speaker
And then later on when I was, after I had had the revelation, right? We had another person come up named Laura who was trying to do her final project.
00:32:00
Speaker
and Buddy and I are both in the both in the audience. and in the in where It's a tech rehearsal system. I'm imagining this. right like we We're both out there in the in the in the auditorium yeah and Laura's working on these cues and Buddy and I are sitting there next to each other.
00:32:17
Speaker
It's just flat lighting. It's just not interesting. yeah And and we we express this to Laura in a sort of gentle way. and And Laura's like, she's confused. She doesn't know what to do. And all of a sudden this cue comes up, like in a church or whatever. There's something about it. And Buddy and I are just like,
00:32:36
Speaker
and we're looking at each other, nodding. And Laura's looking back at us. Is there something, this is this is bad, right? What should I do? I think I should, I think I'll do blah, blah, blah. I think I'll bring up blah, blah, blah. And Buddy, or like we're both like, no, stop, stop, stop. This is the most interesting cue in the whole show. yeah And she completely earnest, she turns back at us and she says, why?
00:33:06
Speaker
I don't know why, I don't understand why. And then we'd sort of described, okay, yeah but the use of color here is making the the actors pop out here. you're You're using lighting in a way that helps to tell the story of what's happening right now. You're breaking some of the rules yeah in order to tell the story. That's why it's interesting.
00:33:29
Speaker
that Like it did for you. Did that also open her up in terms of? I think it did, yes. I think that was her eye opening moment. She says she found a cue that she thought was not following the rules, was bad. And she was like unhappy with it. And then Buddy and I were just like, no, this is the most interesting cue. Right. So her first reaction was like, this does not work. Then you're like, no, this works. No, this is what does work. Yeah.
00:33:58
Speaker
And then she, and then she was able to shift her, her yeah mentality right and her approach from then on. Oh, it's like, like the Orson Well story, right? and Same thing. Like he's like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just breaking rules left and right. Right. you know yeah And in that case, and sometimes you're breaking rules before you know the rules and yeah you're going to have your own problems. You can't see the actors. You can't hear the actors. So yeah sometimes that's okay.
00:34:28
Speaker
but Sometimes it's, most times
Unexpected Positive Outcomes
00:34:30
Speaker
it's not. And so you you just have to know when you can make that rule. David Lynch literally had people talking backwards. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah it's Yeah. But anyway, so I don't know if that helps anybody, but you might have a moment like that yourself. Yeah. You know, I don't know if Christian, if you've ever had a moment like that in your writing or in any kind of creative pursuit, but when it happens, wow, it's eye opening.
00:34:57
Speaker
Yeah, it's, um, I don't know if I've, you know, I don't know, but I have, I have had moments where running a game, like at a con, something I wrote, yeah where an unexpected thing happens, like this unexpected outcome,
00:35:18
Speaker
And it's so much more impactful than what I had originally planned for. And it was like one of those like, whoa, that was really awesome how that played out. um And I think those are some of the experiences I've taken ah you know to other works where I'm like, I want to have that again.
00:35:41
Speaker
Like I want that experience, I wanna create that situation again. yeah Because I thought it was really cool, really interesting and and fun, you know,
Embracing Unique Creative Processes
00:35:50
Speaker
memorable. yeah So, yeah. Yeah, I think, but no, I don't know if I've had that like- The epiphany moment. The epiphany moment, yeah. Sometimes you won't, right? yeah I think that we all have little epiphanies. Like the more we do this, the little epiphanies add up. Right.
00:36:09
Speaker
you know right like It may not be an eye-opening, oh my God, shock moment, like like it was with Buddy. yeah But it may be like, oh, yeah, okay, I get it now. I get why this story didn't work and this story does. I get why this adventure played differently than I wrote it. or or you know I understand a little bit more about human nature now and how to write to to sort of engage.
00:36:39
Speaker
Yeah. I think that we can all have those epiphanies as long as we just keep doing it. Yeah. And I think even if you're reproducing something that you saw loved and you want to you know create that as well. Yeah. and there's I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. And I think there's still ah the opportunity to give it your own voice. Yep. Right. That's the important thing. Yeah. Like focus.
00:37:08
Speaker
on what drew you to that to that thing and maybe crank it up a bit, yeah right? And then give it give it the voice. Obviously you wanted to tell a story that was like that in a way that was important to you. Yeah, like in a way that wasn't like that. Right, right, exactly, exactly. And it happens to me all the time. Yeah, yeah. It's like, this is so close to what I want, but not quite what I want. Yeah.
00:37:38
Speaker
Yeah. And I think, you know, if you're doing the what if game, you know, play, it play along with it. Like say, you know, what, what's the logical conclusion of this? Right. The what if game can be fun, ye you know, and, and really focusing on that voice that you want to bring to it. Uh, I think can make the interesting, interesting. Yeah. I mean, again, I don't know an answer for you, but yeah, that's not to say that's the answer. It's just an answer.
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00:38:06
Speaker
Yeah. And I think.
00:38:08
Speaker
Like we've said, if choosing the two, the two paths between interesting and familiar, always go for interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Don't be afraid to bend the rule a bit yeah or to be weird. Yeah. I mean, David Lynch wasn't afraid of it and I admire it hugely. Yeah. Yeah. Go for it. Right. Like, you know, do that weird, what if type of thing.
00:38:37
Speaker
see how See how it plays. ye I don't think there's a definitive answer. Like I said, it's just, it's hard.
00:38:49
Speaker
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