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From Veterinarian to Thriller Writer: John Bukowski's Journey from Science to Suspense
9 Plays1 day ago
Join Jo on What's Kraken as we dive deep with thriller author John Bukowski, who made the fascinating transition from veterinarian to bestselling writer. Discover how his medical background fuels his techno-thrillers, including "Project Suicide" - a gripping tale about an Alzheimer's cure turned assassination weapon. John shares invaluable insights about the publishing world, from navigating traditional publishers to avoiding vanity presses, plus the brutal reality of rejection in the writing industry. We explore his research process, the importance of professional editing, and why starting your writing career at any age is possible. Whether you're an aspiring author or thriller fan, this conversation is packed with practical advice about contracts, beta readers, and building a sustainable writing career. John's latest releases include "The Peeper" and upcoming "Bad Pennies.
Key Topics Covered
- John's transition from veterinarian to thriller writer
- How medical training enhances thriller writing authenticity
- "Project Suicide" - Medical techno-thriller about weaponized Alzheimer's cure
- Publishing industry realities: rejection, contracts, and publisher relationships
- The importance of professional editing and beta readers
- Research balance in fiction writing
- Starting a writing career at any age
- Current and upcoming book releases
Guest Information & Links
John Bukowski - Thriller Author
- Website: thrillerjohnb.net
- Amazon Author Page: jbukowskiauthor.com
- Latest Release: "The Peeper" (May 2025)
- Upcoming: "Bad Pennies" sequel
Connect with Empty Hell
Host: Jo Szewczyk
All Empty Hell Links: https://linktr.ee/Emptyhell
What's Kraken Podcast: Available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, and Amazon
Recommended
Transcript
Intro
Introduction and Guest Background
00:00:08
Jo
Hey everyone, Joe here and today's guest on What's Cracking, I have to say I've been looking forward to just from the background of this, this John Bukowski and John, I'm so glad to have you here. Thanks for coming on my show.
00:00:22
John Bukowski
Well, pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.
00:00:25
Jo
Of course, of course. And it's one of those things where we start talking sometimes before the show starts and kind of setting things up.
Passion for Veterinary Science
00:00:33
Jo
And I learned a lot of cool things about you in in the show notes.
00:00:37
Jo
You started out not as a writer in life, but you are a great thriller writer now. But how'd you start?
00:00:44
John Bukowski
Yeah, I started as, well, I'll go back. If you go back to high school and undergrad, I had three great passions.
00:00:52
John Bukowski
English reading and writing, been an avid reader all my life. History, been studying military history for 60 years. I hate to say it.
00:01:00
Jo
Wow.
00:01:01
John Bukowski
And science. And when I decided to focus on science, especially I wanted to be a veterinarian, you have to kind of put those other things on the back burner.
00:01:04
Jo
Cool.
00:01:13
Jo
Now, why a veterinarian?
00:01:15
John Bukowski
Um, Um, part of it was i was, I love biology, fascinated by biology.
00:01:19
Jo
Right.
00:01:20
John Bukowski
Uh, I liked the idea of clinical medicine, didn't really want to be a physician.
00:01:24
Jo
Hmm.
00:01:26
John Bukowski
but, uh, so I kind of got into the veterinary track early in my undergrad and, uh, uh, have to have really good grades and you have to really work at it. So those other things, uh, just kind went the back burner.
00:01:45
Jo
Well, right. I mean, it's it's hard medicine yeah and it's on, we'll say patients that can't talk.
00:01:52
John Bukowski
Right,
Challenges in Veterinary Practice
00:01:52
John Bukowski
right. In in that respect, it's it's much more difficult because your patients can't tell you things.
00:01:53
Jo
You know?
00:01:57
John Bukowski
You have to go by the owners.
00:01:58
Jo
Yeah.
00:01:59
John Bukowski
And a lot of times they're clueless. ah you So you become very good at physical exams. You become also because of the profit or economic situation.
00:02:10
Jo
Right.
00:02:12
John Bukowski
There's not like this third party payer that's dishing out all kinds of money.
00:02:16
Jo
Right.
00:02:16
John Bukowski
You have to be very selective about what you test, what you x-ray, things like that. so you become a very good at diagnostics, at rule-outs. What's the most likely thing this is going to be?
00:02:27
Jo
Right.
00:02:29
John Bukowski
Let's look for that first.
00:02:31
Jo
Well, that's amazing.
From Vet to Author: Transition and Inspiration
00:02:32
Jo
I'm guessing that's going to help you running a thriller then because you go from the most likely thing and rule everything else first.
00:02:38
John Bukowski
Right. Well, it it does help in that respect. And it also helps if, for example, my first book, Project Suicide, is a medical techno thrower.
00:02:40
Jo
right
00:02:48
Jo
Wow.
00:02:49
John Bukowski
It's a story of how a cure for Alzheimer's is perverted into an assassination drug. Now, high profile politicians are killing themselves and only a drunken genius can save the country.
00:02:55
Jo
Really?
00:03:01
John Bukowski
And here's a picture of the cover.
00:03:01
Jo
my God. I love it.
00:03:03
John Bukowski
and Suicide that came out 2022. But writing something like that, it was right in my wheelhouse as far as writing what you know.
00:03:11
Jo
right
00:03:15
Jo
So that was your gateway. you You started from, okay, you went from the love of English language and the history, which I always think people should know history no matter what.
00:03:26
Jo
It's an essential aspect of life.
00:03:26
John Bukowski
Right. Absolutely.
00:03:30
Jo
And the love for science. You leaned into the love for science for a career and now you're doing back to your original love of
00:03:39
John Bukowski
Yeah, i've circled I've circled back, basically.
00:03:41
Jo
Yeah.
00:03:42
John Bukowski
And that all really happened when, because I went, I had my veterinary degree. I practiced in Michigan for about seven years, transitioned into public health work, got a master's and a PhD in that.
00:03:47
Jo
Wow.
00:03:55
John Bukowski
Then after about 20 years working for government and industry, I went out on my own as a contract epidemiologist and medical writer. I was doing mostly medical writing, you know, writing journal articles for people, website content, stuff like that.
00:04:08
Jo
Right.
00:04:11
John Bukowski
And during the great recession of 2008, 2009, business kind of dried up for a while. And I always wanted to write a novel.
00:04:22
John Bukowski
And I think most people who are writers, no matter what they tell you, you can be a copywriter, you could be a ah medical writer, love to write a fiction novel.
00:04:23
Jo
There you go. Right. Right.
00:04:30
Jo
right
00:04:31
John Bukowski
And so I set to it, took me about six or eight months, working almost full time on it, and managed to write one. Now, bear in mind, it's still on my computer and will probably never be published.
00:04:46
John Bukowski
But it got me started. So even when business picked up, I kept writing stuff. I tried my hand at some other novels, short stories and stuff, and got my first one published through Pathbinder Publishing in 2022.
00:04:54
Jo
Right.
00:04:59
Jo
a
00:04:59
John Bukowski
Right.
00:05:02
Jo
Which is amazing because that trajectory is for those that don't know, and it's probably because you had such a great writing background for the scientific writing before like that two year sprint.
00:05:12
John Bukowski
right
00:05:16
Jo
That's a sprint and in writing terms, you know, and I love how you said you have the novel.
00:05:19
John Bukowski
Well, I started like in 2009 and I got my first one published in 2022. And twenty two
Writing Journey and Unpublished Works
00:05:26
Jo
Oh, yeah.
00:05:26
John Bukowski
so and that's that is just typical.
00:05:28
John Bukowski
If you say to you know a successful writer, what was your first book?
00:05:29
Jo
Yeah.
00:05:31
Jo
Absolutely.
00:05:33
John Bukowski
They go, the first book I wrote or the first book that got published?
00:05:37
Jo
Always the key.
00:05:37
John Bukowski
Because there's usually like seven or eight books that didn't get published before the one that got published.
00:05:42
Jo
Yeah. Yeah, we we all have somewhere in our drunk drawer, or now I guess computer files, that one book, they were like, what's this file again?
00:05:50
John Bukowski
Right.
00:05:53
Jo
Like, oh, I wrote this when? Do you ever go back?
00:05:55
John Bukowski
Yes, Stephen King calls them trunk novels back when he was doing it in paper.
00:05:58
Jo
Yeah. Lock them in. They will never see the light of day.
00:06:03
John Bukowski
Right.
00:06:03
Jo
Now, have you ever gone back, though, and go like, okay, not even just for fun, but just an actual, can you see it now and go, i can save this?
00:06:15
John Bukowski
Yeah, I mean, certainly up until I got my first one published, I had about eight or nine that I'd written.
00:06:23
Jo
Right.
00:06:23
John Bukowski
And I've gone back and a couple of those have been cleaned up and they're out now, for example.
00:06:29
Jo
Great. Right.
00:06:29
Jo
There you
00:06:30
John Bukowski
Checkout Time, which is my second book. I probably wrote about five years before it was released in 2023.
00:06:37
Jo
right
00:06:39
John Bukowski
That's about an arsonist who is extorting hotel chains. Pay me or I'm going to bomb your hotels. And he's pursued by a government researcher and a beautiful FBI agent until he turns the tables and the hunters become the hunted.
00:06:56
Jo
there go
00:06:56
John Bukowski
So it kind of, we've got a cat and mouse game going.
00:06:58
Jo
I love those.
00:06:59
John Bukowski
ae But that was 2023.
00:07:00
Jo
I love those.
00:07:02
John Bukowski
And um I have another book. Well, just came out with The Peeper, which is about a serial killer who takes eyelids as trophies.
00:07:16
John Bukowski
Here's The Peeper.
00:07:18
John Bukowski
And
00:07:18
Jo
The eyeless.
Research in Fiction Writing
00:07:20
John Bukowski
that came out just May 5th, I think. That's through Rogue Phoenix Publishing.
00:07:26
Jo
Oh, wow. Congratulations, man.
00:07:28
John Bukowski
Yeah. And then I've got one coming out in the, why I've got a sequel coming out soon to Project Suicide called Bad Pennies. And then I've got another book coming out.
00:07:39
John Bukowski
I don't know when we just finished the developmental edit on it.
00:07:41
Jo
Right.
00:07:43
John Bukowski
And that's with Paige Turner books. And I, I'm guessing it'll come out before Christmas. Yeah. But that's a little different for me because it's not a thriller.
00:07:55
John Bukowski
It's what they call in the industry chick lit, which basically means like a Hallmark movie or, you know, it's women's fiction, although I think anybody would like it.
00:07:55
Jo
Really?
00:07:59
Jo
Yeah.
00:08:01
Jo
Yeah, it's bread and butter.
00:08:09
John Bukowski
It's called And a Child Shall Lead Him.
00:08:12
Jo
Well, that's great. That's a great title for it.
00:08:14
John Bukowski
Yeah.
00:08:14
Jo
I mean, just knowing it. And people people who don't know, i would tell them, if you really want to see what sells, go to your local bookstore. I said this last week. like Walk past all the candles.
00:08:27
Jo
Walk past all the knickknacks because now that's what they sell to people who don't buy books at the store.
00:08:29
John Bukowski
i Right.
00:08:35
Jo
See how much show space you have for your genre.
00:08:38
John Bukowski
Right.
00:08:38
Jo
And that's the one that's going to be mate making money. And and like that that genre is also like the airplane genre. You know, it's the airport one.
00:08:49
John Bukowski
right
00:08:50
Jo
It's the hallmark. There's no one wants to read anything go horrible on an airplane.
00:08:53
John Bukowski
Well, that's I can tell you right now that the number one genre by far is romance novel.
00:08:57
Jo
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I've absolutely.
00:09:00
John Bukowski
You know, that scripts everything else by like three or four times.
00:09:04
Jo
Like shelf space.
00:09:04
John Bukowski
And inspect second is thriller. Now there's lots of different types of thrillers, techno thrillers, crime thrillers, medical thrillers, military thrillers, whatever, horror thrillers.
00:09:06
Jo
yeah
00:09:10
Jo
yeah
00:09:14
Jo
right
00:09:15
John Bukowski
But yeah, it's it's it's way up here is romance and then thriller and everything else under it.
00:09:22
Jo
Everything else. And yeah, it's it's it's one of those sobering moments. and And I love that as an author, did you do the research before you started writing Thriller?
00:09:32
John Bukowski
I do the research probably while I'm doing it.
00:09:35
Jo
Okay.
00:09:36
John Bukowski
And research is funny. the I teach a thing on research for fiction writers sometimes.
00:09:42
Jo
Cool.
00:09:43
John Bukowski
I've taught it at Imaginarium conference a couple of times in Louisville, Kentucky.
00:09:50
John Bukowski
Research is really important because it's that thing that makes your lie believable.
00:09:58
Jo
Yeah.
00:09:58
John Bukowski
Fiction writing is a lie. You're telling a story, you're making stuff up, but you want it to be believable, those people will get into it.
00:10:00
Jo
Right.
00:10:07
John Bukowski
And research allows you to do that. They'll go, wow, this guy knows what he's talking about.
00:10:11
Jo
Yes.
00:10:12
John Bukowski
But a little goes a long way and you can become obsessed with the research that you do.
00:10:15
Jo
Yeah.
00:10:21
John Bukowski
And now your book
Accuracy in Storytelling
00:10:22
John Bukowski
reads like a technical manual.
00:10:24
Jo
Yes.
00:10:25
John Bukowski
or Or James Michener, which is okay for James Michener, but you know you don't want 120 pages on how the mountains were formed, necessarily.
00:10:27
Jo
Right.
00:10:33
Jo
No, it's Melville's Moby Dick, the footnote that goes to 12 pages.
00:10:38
John Bukowski
you know you you You want it to be, it's the story's not about the research, it's the spice. The story's about the characters, how they overcome their obstacles that are facing them, what they're trying to get, their interactions, et cetera, cetera.
00:10:43
Jo
Yeah. Absolutely.
00:10:52
John Bukowski
That's the story.
00:10:53
Jo
Right. The research is just the sprinkles, as I would say.
00:10:56
John Bukowski
Yeah, ands so it's that little thing that makes them say, wow, he knows what he's doing.
00:10:56
Jo
Yeah.
00:10:59
John Bukowski
I'm going to believe it.
00:11:01
Jo
Yep. And If you've ever watched, you had the medical background. Have you watched anything on TV that was a medical drama? and You're like, oh, they just got this wrong.
00:11:11
John Bukowski
Oh, a funny story about that. This is a little side, but my my wife is also veterinarian, and she was for many years the editor-in-chief of the Merck Veterinary Manual, a very prestigious veterinary book.
00:11:14
Jo
Yeah.
00:11:17
Jo
Cool.
00:11:22
Jo
Really? Yeah.
00:11:24
John Bukowski
And Once a, I forget what show it was, but they contacted her because they wanted to use her book as a prop. They wanted it to be on the shelf and the guy would, you know, pull it off and make some decision about, you know, how he was going to proceed.
00:11:45
Jo
Right.
00:11:46
John Bukowski
And the thing they wanted to do as as
Publishing Experiences and Challenges
00:11:51
John Bukowski
as that the animal disease that they had was anal glands. which are two little glands basically at the butt where they secrete a foul smelling secretion that sometimes gets blocked.
00:11:59
Jo
Yeah.
00:12:05
John Bukowski
And when it does, it's painful to the dog and such as that. And you discover it on physical exam, but they wanted it to be blood tests.
00:12:08
Jo
Right.
00:12:14
John Bukowski
And she goes, we would never take a blood test to diagnose anal glands. And they go, well, we know, but we thought it'd be funnier. you know where you thought it'd be more interesting. you know
00:12:24
Jo
yeah
00:12:25
John Bukowski
Yeah, you see that all the time. And people in the know notice it.
00:12:29
Jo
And so i that's amazing because like my mom who was a nurse would watch medical dramas just go nuts sometimes.
00:12:35
John Bukowski
Yeah, absolutely.
00:12:36
Jo
And then not even knowing that they do it on purpose sometimes. Like they actually know the answer. Like, no, no, no. We have to make it for TV.
00:12:43
John Bukowski
Well, I mean, even people like Stephen King, you know, if if if you know firearms at all, he will have a person put a silencer on a revolver, which is not possible. He will have somebody click the safety on their Glock and Glocks don't have safeties, manual safety anyway.
00:13:02
John Bukowski
So, you know, stuff like that, it makes you roll your eyes.
00:13:06
Jo
yeah
00:13:06
John Bukowski
And if there's too much of it, you're just going to stop reading. which is, boom, you don't want that.
00:13:11
Jo
Right.
00:13:13
John Bukowski
That's where research comes in.
00:13:15
Jo
Absolutely. It's for me watching some of the TV shows where they do have silencers, but they're all on. Oh, not silencers. They all have safeties, but they're all on. Like the safeties are like, how are shooting the safeties?
00:13:27
Jo
Like why? Yeah.
00:13:28
John Bukowski
Well, you see another thing where like Tommy Lee Jones and the fugitive, he pulls his Glock and then he racks it back, racks the slide back. You don't carry it that way. You carry it with the already racked Because you don't have time when you're in a serious situation.
00:13:42
John Bukowski
and know
00:13:43
Jo
I'm glad you brought that up. Cause I had never, and I'm like, it has to be for a show because who the hell does this? Yeah.
00:13:48
John Bukowski
No, you wouldn't carry it like that. No cop would carry it like that.
00:13:51
Jo
I'm like,
00:13:52
John Bukowski
There's a safety built into the trigger, which makes it pretty safe.
00:13:56
Jo
yeah, like I was like, might as well just leave the cartridge out. like okay. So we, we have this and we're, we're going into the research bit of it. Do you think your PhD helped the research end?
00:14:09
John Bukowski
I think what the main thing the PhD helped, not not so much what I learned in my public health degree, my doctoral, although I have used bits and pieces of that in other things, but the main thing that it helped me with was working on a doctoral dissertation, doing the research
00:14:16
Jo
Right.
00:14:21
Jo
Right.
00:14:31
Jo
Yeah.
00:14:31
John Bukowski
then doing the writing.
00:14:33
Jo
Yeah.
00:14:33
John Bukowski
It's a multi-year task that seems, wow, can I do this?
00:14:35
Jo
Yeah.
00:14:38
John Bukowski
This is a lot.
00:14:39
Jo
yeah
00:14:40
John Bukowski
But you learn, I'm doing a little bit every day. And that's novel writing.
00:14:45
Jo
Yeah, absolutely.
00:14:46
John Bukowski
You know, you sit down and write me a 90,000 word thriller. It's like, wow, that's a daunting task. Write me 600 words a day. It's gonna take you six or seven months, but you're gonna get a first draft.
00:14:55
Jo
ye Yeah.
00:15:01
John Bukowski
And you can do that. You can do six or 700 words a day or a thousand words a day or whatever your word count is.
00:15:04
Jo
Yeah.
00:15:08
Jo
No, that's a brilliant way of, we I went through, but again, before the show, as was pointing out my PhD as well. And I think the schedule, I think you're right. Like the ability to know that, I forgot how long mine was. I think you're 100,000. You know, what the word count for your PhD is, especially if you have to do the research on your own, you have doing all this stuff, you know, writing on your own.
00:15:31
Jo
And what people don't understand sometimes unless they went through it like you and I did, is the scheduling.
00:15:38
John Bukowski
Right.
00:15:38
Jo
That's your own too.
00:15:39
John Bukowski
Right.
00:15:39
Jo
Like you have to keep on, it you that you train is you. The train is you.
00:15:44
John Bukowski
and I always tell people with fiction writing, you have to treat it like a hobby and a business.
00:15:49
Jo
Yeah.
00:15:50
John Bukowski
It's got to be a hobby because you do it because you want to. You do it because it's fun or you're driven to do it or whatever.
00:15:52
Jo
Right. It's
00:15:56
John Bukowski
But it's got to be like a business. You got to sit down every day or nearly every day and set yourself a goal and do some writing.
00:15:57
Jo
gotta be.
00:16:04
Jo
Right. Absolutely. Now, when you're doing your writing and you have multiple books through different publishers, have you ever gone and go just say, you know what, I'm writing this one book, my future book is for this publisher, or is it the book first and then finding?
00:16:11
John Bukowski
Right.
00:16:22
John Bukowski
Typically, what I've done is the book first and then finding.
00:16:24
Jo
Okay.
00:16:25
John Bukowski
But now having several publishers who like my stuff, it's easier to say, I've written this.
00:16:30
Jo
Right. Yes.
00:16:32
John Bukowski
Would you like to see it?
00:16:34
Jo
Yes.
00:16:35
John Bukowski
With Page Turner books where I'm working with now on And a Child Shall Lead Him. I have a horror thriller that I'm also, I've completed. It's actually in multiple, it's probably about the fourth draft.
00:16:47
John Bukowski
And, uh, i I said to them, would you like to see this? And they said, yeah. So they're looking at that now. So it's it's it's a way to get in the door.
00:16:54
Jo
great.
00:16:57
John Bukowski
I've only worked with publishers. I've never self-published. Some people do, and that's fine.
00:17:00
Jo
All
00:17:03
John Bukowski
But I've always worked with publishers. So you get some other stuff with cover design and things like that. They already have people for.
00:17:11
Jo
Yeah, it's a I've done both sides and it's a different beastie, you know, let's say it's a different beastie.
00:17:18
John Bukowski
Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:20
Jo
And you're right. If you have that one publisher who likes your work and you're a decent person, which, you know, I believe you are, they will actually welcome more work with you because you're pleasant.
00:17:31
John Bukowski
yeah
00:17:32
Jo
You know, it's like, this is great. but love You know, you're, you're not a unknown risk. You are known quantity, you know?
00:17:39
John Bukowski
i also I also write short stories. I've had 21 of them published so far in magazines and anthologies and such.
00:17:46
Jo
Right.
00:17:48
John Bukowski
And I put together an anthology of my own with 19 of them because two of them are still contractually.
00:17:53
Jo
Cool.
00:17:54
John Bukowski
I can't ah ah can't republish them. But so I've got 19 of them. And that's also something I'm going to be pitching to publishers over the next six months or so.
00:18:06
Jo
Absolutely. Absolutely. mean and Anthologies are cool, especially if you're a short story writer. I think that's where the eventual endgame is. So you're saying you have most of them rights reserved back to you.
00:18:20
Jo
Were the two just too soon? So the rights will come back to you too soon.
00:18:23
John Bukowski
Yeah, it's too soon. One of them is not even out yet. It's been accepted, but it probably won't be out until like November or something.
00:18:27
Jo
Oh, wow. That's way too soon.
00:18:31
John Bukowski
And then it'll be like six months before I can have it back.
00:18:31
Jo
Right.
00:18:34
Jo
Right.
00:18:35
John Bukowski
And another one, I think they had two years and it was published last year. so So most of them say once we've published it, you do what you want.
00:18:40
Jo
It's fair.
00:18:45
Jo
Right. or Or X amount of time or like give a tagline saying first appearing in Museum of Terror, you know, whatever it
00:18:53
John Bukowski
Right, right, right.
00:18:55
Jo
Yeah.
00:18:55
John Bukowski
yeah And you naturally put that in the front matter of your
00:18:58
Jo
Yeah, absolutely. Have you ever been approached by a publisher who said, give us money?
00:19:06
John Bukowski
Yeah, there's a lot of them out there.
00:19:08
Jo
Yeah.
00:19:08
John Bukowski
And they they vary. There are hybrid presses, which some of them are very good. They say, you know, you get the lion's share of the royalties.
00:19:19
John Bukowski
but you have to pay us up front for editorial or whatever.
00:19:22
Jo
Editorial it cover book.
00:19:23
John Bukowski
And that can be anything from you like $1,000 to $5,000 or whatever.
00:19:24
Jo
Yeah.
00:19:29
Jo
Right.
00:19:30
John Bukowski
But if they're were legitimate, that's a way to go. There's also vanity presses who basically say, your stuff's great. Whatever you've got, we want to publish it.
00:19:41
John Bukowski
And then they charge you like $10,000 or $12,000 because that's where they're making their money. They're not making any money on royalties.
00:19:45
Jo
Absolutely.
00:19:48
John Bukowski
But traditional presses, for example, Page Turner that I'm working with now, they're an actual traditional press. they they They do a run of 5,000 books and see how that does.
00:19:59
John Bukowski
you know theyre not They don't do KDP, know print on demand.
00:19:59
Jo
You're good.
00:20:05
John Bukowski
And you know so so those are great.
00:20:09
Jo
Yeah, 5k. That's a pretty good limited run right there. And then have you, for your short stories, you also read your, I'm guessing you read your contracts for short stories. Is there anything that made you go like, no way I'm not touching this as a short story author?
00:20:25
John Bukowski
Oh, what do you mean? But for something in the contract?
00:20:27
Jo
Yeah, like, ah ah for example, rights, like we, not even you retain your rights, like we get your rights forever. i'm like, oh, I've seen that before.
00:20:34
John Bukowski
yeah Actually, that the one that has the two-year thing, they originally had, they had the rights forever. And I just, I said, or or it was was a long time.
00:20:40
Jo
Oh, wow.
00:20:45
John Bukowski
And I said, well, let's, I don't want to do that.
00:20:45
Jo
Right.
00:20:48
John Bukowski
I said, think two years would be fair.
00:20:48
Jo
Yeah. Yeah, you you haggled them from eternity to two years.
00:20:51
John Bukowski
Sure, just put in the contract.
00:20:54
Jo
Yeah, I know that. And that's the thing. If you are a new writer, you might not know all of these ups and downs. Like some publishers, as you were saying, you know, they have the hybrids, you have the traditional, no which is also indie. You you have vanities.
00:21:09
Jo
And I've seen some presses who are vanity also retain your rights. I'm like, you paid them 10 grand and they get your rights too?
00:21:16
John Bukowski
right Yeah, that's bad.
00:21:18
Jo
Like, what is this?
00:21:19
John Bukowski
That's bad. Yeah, you've got to look at the contracts.
00:21:20
Jo
That's robbery. Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:24
John Bukowski
I'm working as a technical writer. i I looked at an awful lot of contracts with big companies and stuff, and they're always looking to protect themselves the most.
00:21:35
John Bukowski
And you have to argue with them sometimes with their lawyers, especially about liability issues, you know.
00:21:37
Jo
yeah always
00:21:43
John Bukowski
it That's more a technical writing thing than it is fiction writing, although that can be an issue if you're cast and loose with things.
00:21:48
Jo
slander and libel yeah
00:21:52
John Bukowski
but So yeah, you've got you gotta to look at the contracts and you've got to know and you can tell what's boilerplate and what they've inserted specifically to protect them and that kind of stuff.
00:22:02
Jo
Yeah. Well, good for you. I mean, I think more authors should take that part seriously. The contract.
00:22:10
John Bukowski
Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:10
Jo
Like, oh my God, a contract for me to sign. Like, no, read it. Really read it. And i love what you said after that. Talk to him again saying, hey, I like this, as in this, and this. We changed this.
00:22:21
John Bukowski
Yeah, I think another thing that especially new authors have to learn is, you know, everybody wants an agent, for example.
00:22:29
Jo
Right. Right.
00:22:30
John Bukowski
It's very hard to get an agent. They're looking for specific things with specific types of people, potential blockbusters in specific genres and stuff.
00:22:35
Jo
Yeah.
00:22:39
John Bukowski
It's very difficult. But there are publishers, traditional publishers that you can go to directly without an agent. That's what I've done.
00:22:46
Jo
yeah
00:22:47
John Bukowski
But also bear in mind that when an agent... looks at your work and says, oh, you know, a query letter or whatever they say, yes, send me send me the first 10 pages or send me the book, the manuscript or whatever.
00:23:02
John Bukowski
People immediately think, I've got a sale. But what it really means is still 99% time They're going to pass.
00:23:13
Jo
Yeah.
00:23:13
John Bukowski
You have to be prepared for that.
00:23:15
John Bukowski
And it's even harder. You have to be prepared that for probably about 75% of the time. They're not even going to tell you that they passed. They're just not going to respond to you. They're not going to respond
00:23:15
Jo
Yeah.
Crafting Novels: Series, Characters, and Editing
00:23:25
John Bukowski
to your follow-ups.
00:23:26
Jo
Yes.
00:23:26
John Bukowski
It goes into the trash pile.
00:23:28
Jo
The original ghosting.
00:23:29
John Bukowski
He toast you.
00:23:29
Jo
Yes. Yeah. It's like Gen Z doesn't ghost agents and publishers ghost.
00:23:33
John Bukowski
i Non-response is the most common rejection.
00:23:37
Jo
Yes. apps Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.
00:23:40
John Bukowski
It's better with short stories. Most of them get back to you and say, hey, or nay.
00:23:44
Jo
the The form letter, yeah.
00:23:44
John Bukowski
But with not, it's
00:23:47
Jo
Yeah, no, that that's exactly it. And hey I give this advice and you you tell me if you agree or disagree or whatever.
00:23:58
Jo
For people who want to become writers, I'm like, were you the popular kid in school? Like, yeah. i'm like, no, not for you.
00:24:05
Jo
Like, were you ever rejected in school? Like, yeah no, never. I'm always, no, no, no, sorry. Yeah.
00:24:10
John Bukowski
Yeah, it's it's certainly tougher. You have to, the rejection, the rejection is the norm.
00:24:13
Jo
Yeah.
00:24:15
Jo
yeah that that is the Yeah, absolutely.
00:24:16
John Bukowski
You know, it's not, if you get something where they, it's even a small triumph if they say, I liked your query letters, send me the first 10 pages.
00:24:17
Jo
The rejection is the norm.
00:24:27
Jo
Right.
00:24:28
John Bukowski
Or I liked your 10 pages, send me the manuscript.
00:24:31
Jo
Right.
00:24:31
John Bukowski
Those are positive things.
00:24:33
Jo
Yeah.
00:24:34
John Bukowski
may even get positive, on rare occasions, get positive feedback from a publisher or a agent that says, I liked it, but the main character didn't grab me.
00:24:41
Jo
Right.
00:24:44
John Bukowski
Work on that. You know, stuff like that.
00:24:45
Jo
Yep. Yeah.
00:24:48
John Bukowski
But most of the time, if you get, thank you for submitting, it's not me, your writing stinks, a form letter, you that's That's kind of uncommon.
00:24:59
John Bukowski
Mostly you just get crickets.
00:25:02
Jo
yeah
00:25:04
John Bukowski
And you follow up, you know, send them another email and you get crickets.
00:25:04
Jo
Yeah.
00:25:07
Jo
Yep. but The black hole, the black hole is the answer.
00:25:10
John Bukowski
and Right, right.
00:25:11
Jo
Absolutely. And that's the thing. so write me Okay, you're taking your way through a sequel right now. Do you ever write with a series in mind?
00:25:24
John Bukowski
I really don't. I know that's a big thing now. And I don't for a couple of reasons. Number one, if it's if the book becomes relatively popular and a lot of people, or at least several people ask me, oh, we're going to do a sequel or something.
00:25:30
Jo
Right.
00:25:39
Jo
Right.
00:25:39
John Bukowski
I'll think about it then. If I have a good idea for what a sequel might be.
00:25:40
Jo
Right. right
00:25:44
John Bukowski
I'm working on a sequel right now for In a Child Shall Lead Him as well. You know, and that is not not even out yet.
00:25:48
Jo
Cool.
00:25:51
John Bukowski
Bad Pennies, that's actually on Amazon, but they haven't. It was supposed to be released and earlier in May, and they haven't released it yet, so we're fighting with Amazon. But Bad Pennies is actually out there if you want to go to Barnes & Noble or something.
00:26:05
Jo
Right.
00:26:06
John Bukowski
but So, yeah, but so a couple reasons. If I have a good idea and think it will be interesting for people, yeah.
00:26:12
Jo
right
00:26:17
John Bukowski
But it's also, if you if if you write a book and you get it out there, And it doesn't get much traction. Do you really want a sequel to something that didn't get much traction?
00:26:29
John Bukowski
Because people aren't going to usually start by reading the sequel.
00:26:30
Jo
Right.
00:26:32
Jo
Right.
00:26:33
John Bukowski
They'll start by reading the first book.
00:26:36
Jo
Yeah.
00:26:36
John Bukowski
And so I usually think, you know, if you have an idea for a new, new characters, new, new plot line, whatever, maybe that's better.
00:26:46
Jo
Right.
00:26:49
Jo
I think that's good.
00:26:49
John Bukowski
I know agents are always looking for people to write series, you know, but at the same time, when an agent takes you on, they think that it has some potential for generating a lot of buzz.
00:27:00
Jo
Yeah.
00:27:01
John Bukowski
So.
00:27:01
Jo
and And that I think you hit it on the head because especially if your first book in a, let's say you have a four book series in your mind and the first book tanks and you're already started writing the second and third, like, Oh, that's a lot of time just lost.
00:27:14
John Bukowski
Yeah.
00:27:17
John Bukowski
Well, i i at conferences and stuff, I run into a lot of the people who self-publish.
00:27:17
Jo
You know?
00:27:22
Jo
Yeah.
00:27:23
John Bukowski
And they go, you know, I kind of like to get my book out there quick. And I don't spend a lot of time editing and stuff, which which I go, okay, so you're going to get a book out there that is going to be crappier than it could be.
00:27:36
Jo
yeah yeah
00:27:36
John Bukowski
And that's what people are going to recognize as your work. they're gonna They're going to start to read that and go, you know what, I'm not reading this guy anymore.
00:27:44
Jo
and i hope you have a pen name yeah absolutely because you're going to be burned yeah yep absolutely crucial
00:27:46
John Bukowski
So even if you come out with something great after that, you've already kind of shot yourself in the foot. And so that's why editing. Oh, my God. Editorial work is so important.
00:27:57
John Bukowski
You you personally should have gone through it four five, six times and revised it.
00:28:03
Jo
Yeah.
00:28:06
John Bukowski
You know, taking some time between each revision so you get full tries when you look at it, then get it to ah one one or two beta testers, you beta readers.
00:28:08
Jo
Absolutely.
00:28:14
Jo
Right.
00:28:14
John Bukowski
Let them take a look at it. Give some recommendations. Revise again. Then if you get it to a publisher, their editorial input is so important.
00:28:25
Jo
has to be. It has to be. And a lot of people, if even if you go through the self-published route, the only thing you're skipping instead of taking to a publisher, you have to get a professional editor. You must get, you must get, perfect you cannot edit yourself.
00:28:38
John Bukowski
there
00:28:39
Jo
You can edit your drafts, but what the final product, because your mind will fill in all those gaps that's missing in the book, they won't be missing to your mind.
00:28:41
John Bukowski
Right.
00:28:45
John Bukowski
Right. ask and There's no way you can read it the way a reader will read it.
00:28:51
Jo
Correct. And the betas are, yep.
00:28:52
John Bukowski
And an editor, a good editor does that. And more importantly, they know how to fix it.
00:28:57
Jo
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I love how you mentioned the betas because I've seen people like, why do I need a beta reader? Because you need feedback that's not you.
00:29:07
John Bukowski
Right. And it's not the beta reader can't be your sister who goes, I liked it. You know, that doesn't help you.
00:29:13
Jo
No.
00:29:14
John Bukowski
But the people I'm working with now at PageTurner, for example, this is one of the best acceptances I got because they said, we really like the writing.
00:29:29
John Bukowski
Here's what's really great about it. Boom, boom, boom, boom. I love the characters, dialogue, blank, blank. And then they said, and here's why it's not yet ready to be published.
00:29:41
John Bukowski
boom bong Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
00:29:42
Jo
Yes.
00:29:43
John Bukowski
And we've been the past four months, we've been working on the second path.
00:29:48
Jo
Excellent. And that's the the key word was not yet ready.
00:29:53
John Bukowski
Right.
00:29:54
Jo
Absolutely. and And you need someone to say that. You need someone as an author, especially. You need that not yet ready.
00:30:01
John Bukowski
You need to develop a thick skin. I mean, these are your, these are your kids, you know, and
00:30:03
Jo
Oh, yeah.
00:30:07
Jo
Yeah.
00:30:08
John Bukowski
Somebody's going to tell you, I don't like the way your kid's behaving. You know, you can't go, what do you mean? That's my kid.
00:30:15
Jo
My precious little darling.
00:30:16
John Bukowski
You know, and that's kill your darlings thing.
00:30:17
Jo
Yeah.
00:30:18
John Bukowski
You have to learn to like, okay, take me by the hand.
00:30:19
Jo
Absolutely.
00:30:22
John Bukowski
What do you think it needs?
00:30:24
Jo
Yep.
Technical vs Creative Writing
00:30:24
John Bukowski
And hopefully, if you're a good enough writer, they can tell you what they think it needs and you can say, I know how to fix that.
00:30:32
Jo
yes
00:30:33
John Bukowski
I know what I can do to make it that way for you. And that's the perfect author-editor collaboration.
00:30:40
Jo
Absolutely. And i think this goes back to like some of your earlier drafts that are now coming out or have some might not see light day. It's an old Pete Currielli. It was a comedian or still is, I guess.
00:30:54
Jo
He used to say there's no such thing as an unfunny joke. It's a joke you haven't been strong enough to tell yet.
00:31:00
John Bukowski
right
00:31:00
Jo
There's no such thing as a bad book. It's a book you haven't been strong enough to write yet.
00:31:05
John Bukowski
I saw Jerry Seinfeld interviewed and he says, you know, he'll work on a joke for six months, the way to deliver it.
00:31:14
Jo
Yeah.
00:31:14
John Bukowski
You know, he's working on other stuff too, but he'll keep going through different ways, delivering it and stuff, you know?
00:31:16
Jo
Right. Absolutely.
00:31:19
John Bukowski
And so you're right. It's, it's very similar to that.
00:31:22
Jo
Tweaks, yeah.
00:31:23
John Bukowski
And that's true. It's like stuff you wrote three years ago. If you go through it again, you're a much better writer now, hopefully. like
00:31:29
Jo
You better be.
00:31:30
John Bukowski
Yeah. And, uh,
00:31:33
John Bukowski
You're going to be able to make it better. You're going to see, wow, that really doesn't work. That feels flat to me while I'm reading it.
00:31:33
Jo
That's
00:31:39
Jo
Yeah. And you can make it better from that.
00:31:43
John Bukowski
It needs fleshing out, you know, that kind of stuff.
00:31:47
Jo
Absolutely.
00:31:47
John Bukowski
And that's usually in my case, it's from it as a technical writer years ago, you tend to get to the meat right away.
00:31:47
Jo
Yeah.
00:31:54
John Bukowski
Boom, boom, boom.
00:31:55
Jo
Right.
00:31:55
John Bukowski
You know, make it make it understandable, make it clear. tell the tell Tell the results and get on.
00:32:02
Jo
Right.
00:32:03
John Bukowski
And fiction writing is not like that as much. It still has to be clear and understandable, but you're developing, you're building characters, you're building plot, you're building emotions.
00:32:14
John Bukowski
And so you have to learn to take your time.
00:32:14
Jo
yeah
00:32:18
Jo
Put the flesh on. Put the muscles in.
00:32:19
John Bukowski
Yeah.
00:32:20
Jo
Put the sinews on. you know Develop the body. like the the the The technical writing is more of the skeletal. You've got the skeletal system in. Let's go. That's all you need.
00:32:30
John Bukowski
Right.
00:32:31
Jo
Now it's like, okay, now have to dress it.
00:32:34
John Bukowski
And the other thing, you know, as people always say, well, what, you know, what do you tell people who want to be writers? Write a lot and read a lot, especially in your genre.
00:32:42
Jo
Oh, yeah. I read a lot.
00:32:44
John Bukowski
I hear people say, well, I don't want to read, you know, my genre because that will influence. us like it will influence to a certain degree, but it'll make it better. You can't learn how to build a house without a blueprint.
00:32:53
Jo
yeah
00:32:56
Jo
No, it's like, I always find like, oh, i don't want to read because I might get like the influence or I might, you know, i did I steal their idea? I'm like, no, like there's like 2000 books today.
00:33:09
John Bukowski
Oh, I love when people say, I don't want to put my work out there because someone might steal my my my idea of my writing. Yeah, probably not a big problem.
00:33:19
Jo
no yeah, exactly.
00:33:21
John Bukowski
ah Yeah, Yeah, I wouldn't just start tossing out if you have really great ideas for books. I wouldn't just start tossing them out to anybody.
00:33:28
Jo
right
00:33:28
John Bukowski
But, you know, people don't steal writing as much as you think they would.
00:33:33
Jo
No. No. It's like trying to steal a drop of water from the ocean.
00:33:39
John Bukowski
Right.
00:33:40
Jo
Which drop are you taking?
00:33:40
John Bukowski
it's It's a little egotistical. You know, my writing is so great that they're going to want it.
00:33:42
Jo
Yeah.
00:33:44
John Bukowski
It's like, well, maybe it is, maybe it's not, you know.
00:33:45
Jo
It must steal my idea. Yeah, and it's like Shakespeare probably did it first. Shakespeare probably did most of your ideas anyway, so, you know.
00:33:53
John Bukowski
And most people don't understand that if you've written something and you have evidence that you wrote it, you sent it in an email to somebody, you it's it's got copyright.
00:34:07
Jo
yeah the
00:34:07
John Bukowski
It's copyright protected. It's not officially copyright protected in Washington.
00:34:12
Jo
No, the act of doing it.
00:34:13
John Bukowski
But it's copyright protected because you have evidence that it's you wrote it and transmitted it to someone or whatever.
00:34:16
Jo
Yeah.
00:34:21
Jo
It's a reasonable reasonable chain of evidence.
00:34:23
John Bukowski
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:24
Jo
Yeah. A reasonable
Advice for Aspiring Writers
00:34:26
Jo
test on it. Now, okay, wow. I just looked at the time. Wow, we I said like 20 minutes before. We'll do 20, maybe 30. Well, guess what? well guess what ah ah So if you were, i asked this of all my guests, if you were to give younger you some advice, and this could be from your teenage years or from whatever, what would advice be?
00:34:49
John Bukowski
actually for B, it would be from later, it would be start writing earlier. you know, fiction writing.
00:34:55
Jo
Right.
00:34:55
John Bukowski
I did a lot of fiction writing in school as everybody does, you know, for class and things like that.
00:34:59
Jo
Right.
00:34:59
John Bukowski
I enjoyed it and teachers liked it. And when I started doing technical writing, one of the reasons I got into that is the companies I was working at were like, we got something that's important to write.
00:35:10
John Bukowski
We want you to write it, you know, and I felt good.
00:35:12
Jo
there go
00:35:14
John Bukowski
I liked doing it. So, I put it on the back burner for too long. And I just wished I would have started, instead of starting in my 50s, started in my 30s or 40s.
00:35:28
Jo
Right.
00:35:28
John Bukowski
You know, could have got more books out there. I still think I have a reasonable career ahead of me. but but But yeah, that for me personally, that's what it would be.
00:35:33
Jo
Absolutely.
00:35:38
Jo
but but That's amazing. and And that's another thing. You can start writing at your 50s. It's not an MBA career.
00:35:46
John Bukowski
Right.
00:35:46
Jo
You know, this is where the mind and the body starts going, ramping up.
00:35:47
John Bukowski
like
00:35:51
Jo
And that's that's beautiful. That's a great advice, man.
00:35:54
John Bukowski
it's like It's like a character actor, you know? I did some about 15, 20 years of of a community theater in New Jersey and Ohio.
00:36:02
Jo
Yeah. have drums.
00:36:06
John Bukowski
And they need people of all types, all Ages, whatever, you know, you don't have to worry. Could I do this? I'm 56 years old. Well, yeah, there's a character that's in their 50s.
00:36:17
Jo
Yeah, exactly. Like, have you seen the plays lately? There's always a character of some age.
00:36:19
John Bukowski
speaker So it's like that. you can You can start at any time, just like painting.
00:36:23
Jo
Yeah.
00:36:27
John Bukowski
Grandma Moses, you know.
Connect with John Bukowski
00:36:39
Jo
ah
00:36:40
John Bukowski
I do have a a a ah website. It's thrillerjohnb.net, J-O-H-N-B.
00:36:47
Jo
Cool.
00:36:47
John Bukowski
But you could also, I've got a, I just got it up and running. I have an author's page on Amazon.
00:36:54
Jo
Nice.
00:36:55
John Bukowski
And that's jbukowskiauthor.com.
00:37:00
Jo
Very cool. Very, very cool. Well, John, it's been a pleasure talking us. I love like when my academic side and my writing side can come together.
00:37:10
Jo
It's always a great conversation for me.
00:37:12
John Bukowski
Yeah.
00:37:13
Jo
I love it.
00:37:13
John Bukowski
I enjoyed it. Thanks.
00:37:14
Jo
Oh, pleasure, pleasure, pleasure. And I, you know what? I hope to have you on again another time, if you don't mind. Follow up.
00:37:21
John Bukowski
Oh, yeah. i love it. As a matter of fact, you know, when and A Child Shall Eat Him comes out, we can talk about that.
00:37:25
Jo
Absolutely. I love it. i love it. Thanks, everyone.
00:37:28
John Bukowski
and
00:37:28
Jo
Bye.
00:37:29
John Bukowski
Bye-bye.