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Riding the Dragon's Back with Alyssa Clark and Will Weidman
6.9k Plays10 months ago
In the latest Uphill Athlete podcast, coach Will Weidman flips the script on Alyssa and interviews her on her experiences at the Dragon’s Back Race in Wales. The Dragon’s Back Race is a 6 day stage race that runs the length of Wales covering 380km and over 17000m on completely unmarked terrain. Will and Alyssa dive into Alyssa’s race results and running prior to Dragon’s Back and the mindset, training and nutrition changes she has made in the past year. They then break down the ups and downs of the race and the pressure cooker that is stage racing. If you’ve been eyeing a multi-day adventure or event, tune in for the good, the bad and the ugly of its unique challenges.
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Transcript
Introduction and Mission
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to the uphill athletes podcast. Our mission is to elevate and inspire all mountain athletes through education and celebration. My name is Alyssa Clark and I will not be your host today because I will be on the other side of the microphone, we'll say, and actually we have Will Wiedemann.
Dragon's Back Race Experience
00:00:22
Speaker
Wiedemann, am I saying that? Wiedemann. Wiedemann, thank you. Wiedemann, all good. Yeah.
00:00:27
Speaker
Um, who will be actually taking the interviewing position and we will be discussing, uh, the dragon's back race, uh, which is a pretty insane race in Wales that I just completed a little over a week ago. So thanks well for doing this.
00:00:52
Speaker
I'm excited to be here. I'm excited to turn the tables here and get to hear more from you.
Alyssa's Breakout Year
00:00:58
Speaker
So, uh, you're a coach with uphill athlete, you're our podcast host and wear a few other hats at uphill athlete, but you are also a world-class athlete and have had just an incredible year of performances. So I think this is, uh, probably long overdue here.
00:01:16
Speaker
I know we want to dig into the amazing adventure that was the dragons back race, but I can't resist going back at least a little bit because it really feels like it's been just an incredible year. A bit of a breakout year, you know, I think you've had a lot of successes in recent years and some great race performances, but it does feel like, you know, it's almost been a step change even from there. And so maybe just going back to the start of this year with the hurt 100, um,
Reflections on the Hurt 100 Race
00:01:46
Speaker
I think hurt was your first hundred in 2017. And so I think at that time you were around the same age as when I ran my first hundred. I know I certainly felt like a deer at the headlights in my first hundred mile race. And then, you know, you came back six years later, you came in, you won the race, came in second overall, I think set the second fastest female time on the course. So what was it like, you know, coming back to,
00:02:14
Speaker
you know, what was your first hundred mile experience six years later with everything you learned and gained since then? Yeah. Well, thank you for that. Um, and also why you've done your research. Um, yeah, you know, it's so, I think of hurt as one of those races where almost everything went perfectly. Uh, I just, I had a great time the entire day. Like it was the most fun. I think I've ever had.
00:02:44
Speaker
for 24 hours and 35 minutes. And I think a lot of that stemmed from just, I mean, for me, Hawaii, I lived there for three years. It's where I met my husband. It's where I got married. It's where I really started my life out as an adult. It's where my ultra running career started. It's where I first really realized what an ultra running community is. And so it was, it really felt like
00:03:11
Speaker
this love story coming back in a way. I know that sounds odd of love stories and ultra running, but it truly felt, I just felt so much gratitude and love the entire time on the course that it's just, it's hard not to do your best when you feel such a positive energy around you and supporting you and pushing you forward. And I just, everything clicked really
Mindset and Training Strategies
00:03:39
Speaker
well. I was patient.
00:03:41
Speaker
I have worked really hard on getting my nutrition in a much better place. That went really well. I had an amazing crew, just amazing support, pacing. And so just all the pieces came together really well. It's actually why I'm not doing it again this year is because I'm not sure I can, I want to break 24 hours desperately. Like I really want to do that. But I had such an amazing experience. I bought you, sorry, the helicopter.
00:04:11
Speaker
I want to give some space to that before I try again because I'm not sure that I can have much more fun than I did. So I think that that was a huge part of it. And I've really, I've talked about this before, but I've really worked on changing my mindset about how I view myself, which dragons is interesting because I don't think I was fully in as I have been in other races of
00:04:39
Speaker
uh, this change in mindset, which is just really believing in myself and betting on myself that I've put in the time, the effort, the energy to do my best. And I should believe that I can do my best when I stand on the start line. So I think that just all of those pieces came together really well. And I'm very competitive. I love to win, but it really wasn't about winning. It was about,
00:05:06
Speaker
celebrating how far I've come personally as a runner and bringing that celebration to a community that truly has supported me since day one. And do you think that's why it went so well? Is that mindset going in and the community and well then support or was it also just, you know, some days things like can just go well or maybe a bit of both or?
00:05:30
Speaker
I think some of both I think some of both I think there's also you know I know that course like the back of my hand I mean I've run it so many times and by the second lap it was just like oh yeah on that rock you move this way and on that portion you step here and so it just my body remembered how to run that course and I think that's a huge advantage going into her I think it's why locals do really well is because knowing the course
00:06:00
Speaker
is just such an advantage. So that all I think played into it as well. And you know, I've been doing this for eight years now, and you just start putting the pieces together and knowing yourself really well, not to say that you can't have bad races, you absolutely can. But I think that while my training wasn't absolutely perfect, I felt confident I was in a really strong place standing at the start line.
00:06:29
Speaker
Yeah, it's so hard to have everything go right for a race that's that long. I think of all the ones I've done, I think only one has been truly smooth from wire to wire. But that was my third time at Hellbender, which is also a race I love. I love that race, the course, the love of people, the community around it. It was actually really terrible weather. We had awful storms and hail and freezing rain up on Mount Mitchell. But probably for reasons you described, just
00:06:59
Speaker
went well and went smoothly. I think that's a good thing to keep in mind in terms of when these are such big challenges to take on, why are you signing up for them? What's that motivation? I think also really interesting your point of maybe waiting to go back after that basically sounds like perfect experience. And that question of, it's risky, right? Can you replicate that? Can you top that? That's really hard. So I think that's really interesting in terms of how you think about which events to do and why. Yeah. Well, Anne, it's your turn.
00:07:28
Speaker
So maybe the spot that I gave up is the spot that opened up for you. Yeah, there we go. I will be there this year for my first shot at it. So we'll see how it goes. I'm excited. I'm excited for you. I can't wait to help in as many ways as I can. It's a special race. I'll be picking your brain. And those are always the best kind of races where they have that long community around it.
00:07:54
Speaker
the people who love the race that are there. I think there are some races where you really see that. And that's something I've heard a lot about Kurt. I have a good friend. He's run it 15 years in a row. Um, and he stopped at 15, but he's going to keep going back because he just loves being there. He's going to volunteer and support and continue going every year. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He did dragons back. So I got to know Alex really well. Well, that's great. Yeah. Yeah. We'll have to dig into that. But yeah, he's, he's a good local friend here.
00:08:24
Speaker
But then, so, you know, you had a phenomenal result that hurts.
Breakthrough at Canyons Race
00:08:28
Speaker
And then canyons, about three months later. So, you know, you've had a lot of, like I said, wins and great performances, but canyons also, like I said, it felt like a breakout in terms of, you know, it's a UTMB majors race, really stiff competition at the race. You had an international deep fields. Also,
00:08:51
Speaker
maybe a bit of a different course than some of the ones you've done really well on. It was a faster, runnable course, especially this year, because they had to do some re-routes given snow up high. So it made it a pretty runnable course. So how did Canyons and the result there, so you won the race there, change how you think about goals, think about what's possible? Did it change some of your thinking about that? A thousand percent.
00:09:20
Speaker
I had honestly put myself in a box and I said my box is gnarly, technical, hundred plus mile races and I probably can do okay at other things but might not be able to really excel. Canyons was just this honestly wild out of the box like I have worked a lot. I say all of this.
00:09:49
Speaker
very hard at speed work and faster paced running because I am strong in the mountains for the most part, but I'm not as strong as a pure runner. And so I was doing a lot of speed work, like double speed sessions, just putting in huge amounts of that focus. So I was selling myself short on, I think,
00:10:16
Speaker
what I was capable of doing and Keynes was just like blasting the door open of what I thought of what kind of a runner I thought I was and all of a sudden it's like I used to think there's just no way I can do a Western like I can't compete at that and then it's like Keynes was basically in many ways not that far off of a Western heat um you know it's on lots of the Western course and now I'm like oh
00:10:43
Speaker
maybe I am, maybe I can be that type of runner. You know, maybe I shouldn't be just boxing myself into these more masochistic races. Maybe I can really run. And I think that was just a huge eye opener to me of the narratives that we tell ourselves are often incorrect. And even when you see someone who
00:11:10
Speaker
is having a good year or having a good race series. They probably have limiting beliefs about themselves. And it takes that step outside to be like, oh, wow, I was super wrong about that. I should reassess. And that's really exciting, because all of a sudden, these races I thought just really weren't my style are now on the table. And things I thought weren't possible, it's like, no, maybe it is possible. That is awesome. I mean, the power of belief.
00:11:40
Speaker
We can all channel our inner Ted Lasso and put our believe sign up, right? And then, you know, from putting our coaching hats on, I think what you said was interesting. And do you think part of that is training the things that we're, you know, we're strong on, right? Or the things we don't like
Spontaneity and Adaptability in Racing
00:11:58
Speaker
as much. I think often part of our coaching job is to say,
00:12:02
Speaker
You know, you're good at what you're good at, right? So the things that are not what you like to do as much are probably the things you should be doing more of and working on some of the relative areas of weakness and then how much that can do for you, right? I think that's an amazing example of how far you can go with that. Yeah. And I, my coach and I have been working together. I mean, this is a plug for the relationship you build with a coach when you stick with them for years. We've been working together since 2019. So.
00:12:30
Speaker
coming up on four years of consistent, a consistent relationship, he knows me really well. And so he knows that he can push me in ways that frankly, I would be concerned pushing an athlete, but we know each other. He's seen me, he's seen what I can do. And so we actually took a risk this spring. I was doing, I would do these kind of longer
00:12:58
Speaker
more thresholdy type workouts of like four by 25 to 30 minutes. Um, and then in the afternoons, it would be like much, um, you know, like almost zone four ish type work in that like seven to 10 minute range, six reps. So it would be totaling 20 miles of work twice a week. Um, throw in like five to eight time trial in there. And it was.
00:13:25
Speaker
I mean really hard work and he was like this could be risky like this could backfire because this is a lot but I think this will take you to the next level and he was right and so that comes from though like I would not do that unless I knew my athlete really really well and knew their capacity it takes a lot for me to have a metabolic stimulus
00:13:55
Speaker
And so I've just like built that up over years where it takes really, I'm a high volume runner. Um, I have then I owe it. That's always sat really well with me, which is not for everyone. Um, so that just speaks to your coach, the, the longer you stay with the coach, and that's not to say you should stay with the coach. It's not good for you, but the longer you stay with the coach and the more you trust them, um, the better.
00:14:22
Speaker
They know you and the more dial the workouts and the more you can challenge yourself so Yeah, I think if you're going to be walking that fine line And want to get the most out of yourself while making sure you stay on the right side of that line And don't push too far into injury. It is really hard and having Having somebody who you know who knows you for a long time and that expertise to help With that is really important because otherwise it is hard to know and it's hard to manage that process than that risk Yeah, I think for
00:14:52
Speaker
I think for canyons, you also, I think you came to that race, signed up relatively soon before the race, right? It wasn't like that was the long-term plan. I think it was fairly soon before and then also some back and forth on which distance. Oh yeah, is a mess. Which I think, you know, maybe there's a good aspect of that, right? Where you don't have too long to overthink something or over train for something. And, you know, I've had cases where for whatever reason,
00:15:22
Speaker
life circumstances all signed up for a pretty big race where there's an opening in the race a couple of weeks before. And sometimes those are actually some of the best performances. But do you, how do you think that affected your race? You know, coming in, is that a positive, a negative? I think it was totally a positive. Um, you know, the nice thing is, is that, so I was supposed to do Estria and then I have had an autoimmune disease. It flared right before and was like, I shouldn't go to Croatia, um, with this.
00:15:50
Speaker
flaring, um, an unknown, kind of an unknown factor of a country. I mean, Croatia is amazing. I just, I, I, my doctor's not in Croatia. And so opted not to go, um, just cause I thought it was a bad idea and then was like, Oh, Kenyans. And then, uh, you know, I'm in a really fortunate position that I do have one of my sponsors is a sponsor of the UTMB race was able to get me in. And it was like, Oh, you're in the hundred mile. Now you're in the hundred K.
00:16:20
Speaker
And so I really, I love the hundred mile distance. I always say it's like, I need the time to do my work. Um, and the longer I have to do my work, the better it generally goes. And so a hundred miles is probably my favorite distance or right about. And so the day before I went up and I was like, Hey, um, can I switch up? And they were like,
00:16:44
Speaker
No one does that. I was like, yeah, I know, but like, I'm trained. I think I'm trained for it. Like, do you mind? And they're like, okay, you're weirdo. And then I saw, I saw the woman who was like super helpful after the race. And she's like, you good job. Like glad that happened. And I went, yeah, thank you. Thank you for helping. But I think, you know, sometimes like I was so I was just excited because it kind of felt like
00:17:14
Speaker
like I kind of snuck in under the radar like you know how there's all these um and they're super fun but like the fantasy polls and like the pre-race reports and like all the articles and hype and build up for it I wasn't in any of that because I wasn't supposed to be in the race and so I think just by avoiding all of that there's just that not that pressure that um I think
00:17:42
Speaker
some of the other runners could have been feeling. It was just like, Oh, I'm just like lucky to be here. I'm lucky to stand on the start line. I'm stoked to do my best and put my best foot forward. And I think that that was a huge positive. And then everyone's like, where the heck did she come from? Uh, which I always find a pretty fun position to be in. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. And you know, a lot of races, logistically, like you said, are just hard to get into and to take a lot of that advanced planning, but.
00:18:11
Speaker
I think one thing that's interesting for athletes to think about is if you're training and feeling good and you're fit, there's often a lot of really cool local events that you can get into pretty late in the game. And, you know, it can be fun just to out overthink it and jump into something and hold it a bit loosely and sometimes surprise yourself. So it's a good thing to keep in mind that you don't have to train heads down for something for 12 months exclusively focused on it, you know, just.
00:18:39
Speaker
you know, be out there training and enjoy it when it comes. Yeah. And I think that's the really fun part when you start to know yourself is that I felt like, Oh, I have the fitness for a faster, a hundred, a hundred K to a hundred mile. Like that. I can judge where I feel my fitness is at and where my readiness is. And I was like, yeah, I think that's about where I'm at. So it didn't actually matter that much what that race was. It was just like, I want to see what this fitness can do for me on a race day.
00:19:09
Speaker
And that happened to work out really well. That's awesome. All right, so a bit of a selfish question on this one. So canyons got super hot. It was up into the 90s, I think. Those canyons just kind of hold the heat in. It was April, so people weren't heat acclimated. I was among those people. I was there and struggled a lot during the day in the heat. Any tips or tricks of
00:19:38
Speaker
Managing heat or things you did especially given you know, that wasn't you're planning a race in a different country in a different climate so anything to Any wisdom to impart in terms of hot weather races, which probably was as well, you know in all season hot weather race and how to manage those Yeah, you know, I think part of it is just Going in with the mindset of I was like,
Mental Resilience and Safety in Mountain Racing
00:19:59
Speaker
oh cool. It's hot. I like heat. That's fine and so I think a little bit is just
00:20:04
Speaker
your mindset going into it, if you're really dreading it or concerned, not that you shouldn't be concerned, but if you're like, oh, I suck at heat, this is going to suck. Like, yeah, it's probably going to suck. But I try to be, whatever the weather is, I try to be like, awesome. I love this weather. This is great. This works to my advantage. And so I try to use that mindset aspect of it.
00:20:30
Speaker
Um, the other parts really just every aid station, it was like ice down the shirt, ice in the hat, get the body wet. Um, I did that a lot at dragon's back, not so much with ice, but just getting into cool water, just checking myself, I think. So I was okay during the day, but then actually I was fine between the hours of three.
00:20:54
Speaker
p.m. and 5 p.m. are actually the hottest hours of the day and I was roasting at about 4 p.m. and so I was right with another woman we were in first and second and I just went this is not the time to push so I let her go and I backed off I settled myself took it easy just really took the pressure off during the hottest part of the day and was like I'll move at night and so I think just
00:21:22
Speaker
being aware of like, yeah, this is really hot. And this is not the time to be making moves. This is not the time to be racing. This is the time to be conservative and play it safe and cool. I think that really helped me to manage that super hot section and get to the cooler weather and just feel a lot better. Yeah, that's very good smart advice.
00:21:49
Speaker
I think it's a great mental trick to tell yourself, like you said, whatever the conditions are, tell yourself those are good conditions for you. So if it's hot, say, that's great. I'm great at heat. If it's cold and rainy, say, that's great. That's perfect for me. Cause you can't change it, right? So you can't change it. Yeah. And the other thing is that if you've been training, you know, that's, I think part of the experience component of all of this is that
00:22:15
Speaker
You run in the heat, you run in the rain, you run in the cold, you know, unless a San Diego is a little bit rough for that, there's not a lot of variability. But I go to the mountains, whatever. And so you draw off of those memories, you draw those, you go into your toolbox and you go, okay, here's my, my heat set. And so just the more that you can build up and use those memories, those experiences, the better off
00:22:44
Speaker
it ends up going because you've done it. Yeah, 100%. And then I think next after that was Balderon, which maybe was just a reminder that sometimes the mountains just win, right? And have their own day. So I think that was a, just sounds like unbelievable wild storm, canceled the race relatively early on. So any, any takeaways from that other than, you know,
00:23:13
Speaker
just the nature of the mountains. I think it's just, I think that was just a really good reminder that I've been, I've really been harping on this, that being a good mountain athlete is above all else, the most important thing. I really advocate that we don't kind of put ourselves into the box of like, Oh, I'm a trail rider. I just, I run. And that's what I do. It's like, well, if you're going to be in big mountains, you need to be a mountain athlete.
00:23:41
Speaker
And you need to be prepared for situations like this. You need to know how to self rescue and make decisions based off of safety, not position or whether you're going to win or not. And so I think that was a really humbling way. In some ways it was almost like what you learned from a bad race or a DNF is just that there are, there are things out of your control.
00:24:10
Speaker
And your safety is above all else the most important thing. And I think that was great because I did, even though it was shortened, I worked through some self-limiting beliefs I had just even in the first 20 miles. And I was ready to rock and roll coming out of that. So I think it was really good. I would have loved to see how it played out for the rest of the
00:24:39
Speaker
80 something miles but that just wasn't in the cards and that's okay. Sometimes that happens and unfortunately I think with climate change becoming more and more of a player in these races we're going to see this more often and I think to me nothing is more important than the safety of myself and my fellow runners and that was very clear to me of like a no-brainer and I hope that
00:25:09
Speaker
some other runners that I saw who were less inclined to make that choice, whether that was just out of less experience or a competitive push, learned something as well from that. So yeah. And what are some of those mountain skills that are important to cultivate and have? Yeah, great question. So I think the number one is not number one, but a super important one is like,
00:25:39
Speaker
your gear, carry your mandatory gear, know that it works. Don't try to skate by or just do the minimum. Have what is required because there's pretty spot on. I wore everything that I brought with me. The other thing is to understand how weather works in the mountains. So going up on a ridge line in a storm is a bad idea. It's very exposed.
00:26:08
Speaker
you're not going to have much chance for protection. And so just understanding how storm systems work in mountain ranges, knowing that as weather turns, you're really going to struggle to keep your body temperature up. So getting your clothing on ASAP, knowing how you're going to layer
00:26:31
Speaker
and just making sure, especially if it's raining, getting the waterproof out as much as possible, keeping moving, taking care of others. Yeah, just also working as a team.
00:26:44
Speaker
So if like, for example, I was with, I think three other runners and we kind of made a quick pack that was like, okay, we're in this together. We're going to work as a team. We're not going to leave anyone behind and we are going to, um, look out for each other. And so I think that's super critical is not this kind of like, um, solo mentality for us. Uh, you know, all of a sudden you have three people who are.
00:27:11
Speaker
watching out for you and making sure that you're not going hypothermic or having other issues. And so we made decisions quickly. We didn't second guess them and just, you know, know that often or not often, but a lot of times turning back to the point of safety rather than pushing into the unknown. So much wiser decision. So for us, it was like, yeah, we need to turn back down the mountain.
00:27:39
Speaker
We should not continue up on the ridge line because it just got a lot worse up there. Even though you're essentially like giving the race up. And so you made the choice to turn around on your own volition before the race was canceled, which ultimately happened. But it sounds like you made that call first in that case. Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:02
Speaker
other people we tried to convince as many people as possible because Obviously the lower you are in the valley the better it seems it the less Strong the storm is and so people like oh, it's not that bad. We're like no, it's like it's really dangerous up there and so a few people went on I wasn't first and the two women behind me continued forward and That's fine. That's their choice but Yeah, I mean
00:28:32
Speaker
If the race had continued, I'm not quite sure what would happen, which is actually something I really want UTMB to figure out. What does race neutralizing mean? Because they neutralized the race before they canceled it. But if you have runners who are still progressing forward and other runners who are either staying in place, as I think you're supposed to do, or going back to safety, if the race had started again,
00:29:00
Speaker
Um, all of a sudden I am way behind and have six miles to go back up. And so I really would encourage you to be to figure out what does race neutralizing mean in trail running in biking. It's, you know, the Peloton kind of slows down. Like there's ways I think that they can enforce it and in trail running much different. So that was something I kind of took out of it of like.
00:29:29
Speaker
how do we figure out these situations? I think ultimately, most of the time they end up getting canceled. But yeah, I would be really curious to see what they come up with. What actually does neutralizing mean? Yeah, I think you're right. It's so often a gray area. You think about TDS two years ago, where there was a tragedy on the course, and it wasn't a full stoppage. There was some number of people who continued and some who were stopped.
00:30:00
Speaker
it is hard when you have that kind of gray area. So I think that's a really important one. And I think a good lesson to take away from this, from what you shared, that's applicable to a lot of these mountain sports of that aspect of knowing when to turn around. And I think sometimes, you know, we feel the risk is lower in trail running than it is in say mountaineering, but big mountains, big storms, you're still at that altitude, things can happen and things do happen. So I think that's a very important takeaway for people to remember.
00:30:28
Speaker
I just wanted to, before we jump from Val-de-Rond, do you want to go back when you said before that happened, you were continuing to progress some of that self-belief that came from Canyons as well. What did that mean in Val-de-Rond? Did that mean going out more aggressively or more confidently and having that belief to be at the front of a stack international field? Or what form was that taking up to the point where you didn't have to, the race was ultimately canceled and you had to turn around? Yeah.
00:30:58
Speaker
went into it, I definitely was not, I was not under flying under the radar in that race as much as the number one seated female.
Managing Self-Confidence and Panic Attacks
00:31:09
Speaker
And so I think I just carried that confidence more of like, yeah, I do belong to be here, I work really hard. I have had previous challenges, starting out fast on a really big climb, like most of these races, you get like a
00:31:27
Speaker
three to 5,000 foot climb right out of the bat. And I take a bit to warm up. And so I find that really challenging. I can kind of get out of breath and struggle a bit on that first climb. So one of my goals was just like, stay cool, stay confident on that first climb. I didn't fully succeed at that. I definitely struggled a little mentally. I'm just like, Oh my gosh, I'm doing it again. I'm dying. But then once I kind of settled into the race, it was like, okay, I feel good. I'm like,
00:31:57
Speaker
doing what I can do and before I would have gotten pretty panicked had that first time not gone well and carried that panic with me. But this race, I felt a lot more that I could allow like, yeah, maybe that five minutes of that wasn't great or five minutes here or there, but I was still doing just fine. And so I just felt like my confidence was really growing. And my coach told me,
00:32:27
Speaker
right before the race, he was like, um, the body will do whatever the mind says. And so I would just be like, um, your mind is strong. Your body can do it or something on those lines. And so I just kept on the next, like really big climb, just kept repeating, like your mind is strong. Your body will do it. And so I think that was really a great mindset to bring in. And I felt really confident that I was going to keep that up. Um,
00:32:57
Speaker
as well. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of times, you know, the body will play tricks on us and goes into the self preservation mode and you know, it's easy to feel like, you know, you can't keep it up or the legs aren't there, but it is interesting, right? When you get the minds behind it and then you can feel totally different a few miles down the trail. And I think so much that is that confidence and belief that things will come around, they'll be fine. The training's there, the fitness is there. And that's great that you've been able to harness that.
00:33:28
Speaker
Yeah, and I would say I did not do as good of a job at that in the beginning of Dragon's Back. So that's kind of interesting to reflect on. It's why, for those listening, I said to Will, I really don't know how I feel about Dragon's Back. I can't quite unpack it.
00:33:51
Speaker
And so this will be very interesting because I still can't, it's why I've struggled to write much about it. Um, cause I just don't know how I feel about the race yet. Well, let's get into it. Um, first you want to just tell the listeners what this race is. It's a bit of a unique race and format. So this helps us understand the beast that is dragon's back.
00:34:17
Speaker
It, yes, it is a, it is a beast. Um, so Dragon's Back is a race that goes essentially the length of wheels. Um, it's six days. It is a total of 380 kilometers. So it's about 235 miles, but, um, and, oh gosh, I think it's like 60 or 70,000 feet of climbing, something along those lines.
00:34:44
Speaker
Um, it's, so it's broken up into stage racing. So you race a day and then they set up this beautiful camp. You can't, um, they set up the Ted's for you. They have food. Uh, like they, they move your luggage around with you. Um, but each day, each day is its own race. So it's very different from a 200 miler where you're going continuously. It's stage racing is very complex and challenging. Um, but.
00:35:15
Speaker
Well, I guess the other thing I should say is it's completely unmarked. So it's an unmarked course. It's also not on trails, right? Like there are some parts that are on trails, but a lot of it is not. And so you are route finding, you're following a GPX track or for those who know the route really well, they, they, um, pre
00:35:36
Speaker
preview it. Um, and so course knowledge is massively huge on this and a massive advantage, which I got served a lot of humble pie of, uh, my lack of course knowledge, even though I have seen three days of the race, um, from 2019, which we can get into. And I have spent some time out there. I had not been back to Wales since 2019 and I'd forgotten a lot of it. And, um,
00:36:05
Speaker
Yeah, you're losing, I would say you're losing upwards of 30 minutes plus just figuring out where the heck you're going. Even if you're following a GPX track, that's pretty good. It's very easy to get lost a lot. But the first day is about 30 something miles, about 14,000 feet of climbing and descent, which is a big day. The next day is 35 miles and about 12,000 feet.
00:36:34
Speaker
of climbing and descent and just gnarly scree fields, et cetera. The third day is 44 miles and about 11,000. The fourth day is easy at about 42 miles and 7,500 feet. The fifth day is another big day of 44-ish miles and over 10,000 feet.
00:37:02
Speaker
of climbing, and the sixth day is 42 miles and about 4,500, 5,000 feet of climbing. So any one of those days would be a pretty rough day. Not rough, but challenging. And yeah, you get to string them all together. Dragon's back. So it's a lot of race to go through, but maybe take us through those first couple of days, how those went. And it sounds like maybe there wasn't that same
00:37:32
Speaker
strong feeling of belief that you had in the last couple of races, but how those couple of days played out, where you were in the field, what was going on in your head and go from there. Yeah. So the first couple of days actually played out quite badly for me. Um, my, so it's interesting is my coach had said, you're probably not going to feel great the first few days. Um, cause I've trained you to excel towards the end of the race.
00:38:02
Speaker
And so I think I took that really way too much to heart of like, I'm going to feel terrible. Cause guess what? I felt terrible. And so I think that that's something maybe we could have discussed in a different manner that would have allowed me to be more positive on myself rather than just like, I'm going to feel terrible. And guess what? I felt terrible. Um, so I think I set myself up a little bit.
00:38:30
Speaker
for failure just by going into the first few days expecting to feel bad. And shockingly enough, I felt bad. I had a horrible shakeout run two days prior where I was like, oh, I feel awful. My heart rate's super high. Oh my gosh. And that's not uncommon for me, but I think it got in my head. And so started out and
00:38:57
Speaker
there was really good competition. Like there were fast women in that race that caught me off guard. I'll be perfectly honest. Um, I was not expecting quite that level. And I, on the first day, probably 10 miles in or so, um, had a panic attack and I've actually come to realize that I've struggled in the past. So actually in dragons back in 2019,
00:39:27
Speaker
I had massive nutrition failures. I just wasn't eating, and so I was just running on below empty. But I also realized that when I feel things slipping out of my control, whether it's because of position, whether it's because things aren't going well, that I sometimes have panic attacks.
00:39:47
Speaker
I thought it was a heart condition. I've been tested for that. We thought it was maybe an inner ear imbalance or dehydration because I will hyperventilate to the point of blacking out. And this happened to be in Tor in 2021. And it's happened in a couple of other races. And I literally put, so huge learning, put my finger on the fact that I am buying
00:40:15
Speaker
Except that I'm having a panic attack, which isn't fine, but that realization of like, oh my gosh, that's what it is. I'm not dying. I'm, I'm not out of shape. I'm not affected by altitude. It's that I can't not can't I, I don't manage my stress. Well, when I'm not a doing as well as I think I should be doing and when I don't feel
00:40:44
Speaker
Like I'm performing to what I should be, which was huge. And, you know, a wake up call of things that I need to work on. Um, but yeah, I was like hyperventilating up one of the climbs. I just had no energy. I got passed by a few people. Um, it just was, it was like, I was reliving what happened to me on the fourth day of dragons back. And so.
00:41:13
Speaker
I called my friend. I was like, I can't breathe. I don't know what's going on. Like, this is so bad. This is so early. What do I do? I was like, why am I doing this race? I just want to go home. And just everything that I've worked so hard to move past came flying back and called him. He was like, just need to breathe. Like, you know how to do this. You can get yourself out of it.
00:41:39
Speaker
And then I had someone come along and just be like, Hey, are you okay? And we just started walking together and he got me out of that. And I just went, you know what, Alyssa, it's the first day, like just keep moving. And it was a horrible day. I mean, I felt terrible the entire day. I didn't have a good section. I had no energy. I just was so defeated the entire day. I came into the, they have, um, like a halfway point where it
00:42:06
Speaker
They bring this like drop bag for you. They have water and they just looked at me and were like, oh my gosh, like, are you okay? I was like, I'm just having a really rough day. At that point, I think I was in like fourth or fifth, just not doing what I had intended to do. And they were, they go, I was like, the dragon's really getting me. And they're like, why don't you name your dragon? And I went, okay. So I named my dragon, Grace. First of all, one of my best friends name is Grace.
00:42:34
Speaker
And I also was like, you're not giving yourself any grace out here. Like you're being so mean to yourself. And so I named it grace. And anytime, um, cause it was really hot. Anytime like a breeze would come through or something would go right. I would just go, thank you, grace. And we're just like, like grace kind of became a companion when to like, keep me positive. And then when things, this is kind of, I feel badly, but when,
00:43:02
Speaker
things were going like we'll say cheekier or not quite as well or like you know things were tougher than I expected. My cat looks like Toothless because he's a black cat and his name is Michael so I would be like Michael so Michael was like
00:43:20
Speaker
the cheeky dragon whenever things would get tough. Yeah, the bad dragon. Michael's the sweetest guy ever, but he can be a little devil sometimes. So it's like, oh, the devil dragon is Michael. And so, yeah, so I had Grace and Michael with me from the first day, which, you know, it's so funny, the mind games that we play. But I really finished like day one, I just got into camp and was just like, oh, and kind of an interesting thing.
00:43:49
Speaker
that happened as well, sorry, helicopter passing over, is that it was really hot. I mean, it was really hot the entire time, but I was running about a mile from the finish, just like, just get me in. And I came across an unconscious body a mile from the finish and was like, oh my gosh, there's like a body over there. And one of the runners had passed out from heat
00:44:18
Speaker
I think it was heat stroke. And so I woke him up. I started trying to help him. I was pretty much out of water, but, um, we got, we were trying to call for help. Neither of our phones were working. So I got him awake and a little bit better and then was looking for service, found some water, got it, came back up, brought it to him. We got him drinking. Another runner came and then another runner. So spent about 20 minutes or so helping him.
00:44:48
Speaker
Um, and just like, I think that snapped me out of like, you know, racing again is less important than the safety of other runners and the safety of ourselves. And so that was a really good reminder. He ended up being fine. He didn't finish the, he didn't finish the day or anything like that, but he was able, they do offer this thing. So if you do half the course, if you like the hatchling, cause it is a really hard race.
00:45:16
Speaker
I mean, 330 people started and only 87 finished the entire course. Um, so yeah, it's like a 20%, 27 or 29% finish rate. So he was able to keep going on. Um, they ended up giving me credit for taking the time because they were like, you know, we're so thankful that you did that. They gave credit to the other people, but that was a really good, like, shake me out of.
00:45:43
Speaker
that just pity party, um, that I was having. And, um, day two went okay. It didn't really go that much better. Just errors of nav and was really in my head about I had women in front of me and I don't like that. Um, I'm working on getting better at it, but I don't, I didn't like being behind. Uh, I think it was in fourth at that point and
00:46:11
Speaker
Just wasn't running my own race and was still in this like, oh, you're not going to feel good mentality. So day two was okay. It was better than the first day, but it still wasn't, I just wasn't running the way that I wanted to and the way that I knew I was capable of. And you know, so much of it was that I was comparing myself.
00:46:30
Speaker
to 2019, Alyssa, I couldn't stop doing it. Cause I had my first two days of 2019 were phenomenal. Like I felt so strong. There was a picture of me from day two and it's, I still remember it as feeling like I was on top of the world. And so I was just caught and my times were slower this year. Part of it was that there, it was a lot hotter, but I was like, Oh my gosh, I can't even like,
00:46:58
Speaker
I thought I was so much better and stronger and smarter than 2019, Alyssa, but like, I can't even beat her. And I can't beat these other women. And so I was just so in my head about how I felt like I was failing. And day three, a little bit better. Started feeling like I was getting my groove. It was a hard long day. Just again, like,
Challenges of Dragon's Back Race
00:47:25
Speaker
You know, one of the biggest things with Dragon's back, and it's not an excuse, but you have runners who, like the woman who won, um, she. Wrecking the course, the race director. And so she knows that course and that's like, like the back of her hand. And that's amazing. I mean, heck that's how I feel with her is that I know the whole course, like the back of my hand. And I just, I was losing so much time and mental energy to just like flounder you around.
00:47:54
Speaker
and not, um, being, being on top of, uh, knowing the best lines. Cause the other thing is you don't have to stay on the GPX line. You can run better lines if they're available. So it's like, you can take shortcuts if you know, they exist. So, so you have to go just from this point to that point, however you do it is up to you basically. Exactly. That's not,
00:48:19
Speaker
all the parts of the course, that's certain sections, but you can gain quite a bit of it. Like you have Alyssa bumbling along and then you have someone who's like, Oh, I know the 10 minute shortcut on this section. Like that's a huge difference. And that is part of the race. I mean, it's part of the strategy. Uh, but it was, it's, it gets really frustrating where you're like, Oh, I can't believe this is happening. So my mind goes to Barkley, right? And is there a strategy for this where.
00:48:48
Speaker
You try to latch on to a veteran who knows that course inside out. And was that part of what you're trying to do? But how are you thinking about that strategically? Yeah. So I actually did latch on to someone who led me on a shortcut. I knew there was a shortcut on day two. Um, I did not know what the shortcut was. I just had been told many times there's the shortcut, wink, wink. Uh, and I found someone who was going off that direction. I went, Oh my gosh, can I go with you? And he was like, yeah, sure.
00:49:18
Speaker
And so I went with him, which was awesome. Um, but yeah, you do try to, I did latch on a couple of times to people because I knew enough to know there were shortcuts out there. I just didn't know what they were. Um, so shout out to bill. Thanks bill for that shortcut. Um, but yeah, it's just, it's really interesting. Not every piece of the course again is like that. There's mandatory sections where you have to run.
00:49:48
Speaker
Um, the same as everyone else. And it, you, as the days go on, there become less and less opportunities for those shortcuts. Um, but it's, it's super interesting. It's a really, uh, I think. Underestimate it's something I just did not think about. I was like, Oh, well, if I run well, like everything will be great and everything will be fine. And then I saw the runners who put in lots of time and effort and preparation and.
00:50:15
Speaker
really impressive, what they'd done was like, oh yeah, this is a lot of wasted time and energy I am expending compared to someone who lives over here, knows the terrain, and knows the good routes. So yeah, that was just something I kind of had to accept. And a couple of times I grumbled about it with
00:50:43
Speaker
Uh, some of my friends who are from the States who were like, yep, this kind of sucks. And I was like, yep, it kind of sucks, but that's a racing strategy and you just have to accept it and be like hats off to them. They put in the time and effort. Um, so yeah, so that was part of it. Um, day three. Yeah, it went a little better. Came in and, um, I was pretty, the only thing is that I was dealing with a lot of nausea.
00:51:12
Speaker
Uh, my stomach is really sensitive. It was hot. Uh, just was struggling to get calories down. And so that was playing my head too of like, Oh, what failed you last time was lack of calories. Like you cannot do that again. And of course, as soon as you start thinking you cannot do something, it starts putting on pressure. Um, so I was putting a lot of pressure on myself in that regard. I was just, um, quite nauseous most of day three.
00:51:38
Speaker
got into camp was still nauseous. And of course, all I could think about was the fact that day four was where I dropped in 2019. And so that was just this massive dragon staring me in the face of like, are you going to get through day four again? Are you going to drop? Is something going to happen? And so I don't think I realized how much, how many demons and how much
00:52:07
Speaker
I was bringing in to day four and to the entire race because I just never truly felt like I ran with any kind of freedom or full confidence because I was just waiting for something bad to happen and waiting for the demons to catch me. And I think that's why I am not satisfied with the race.
00:52:37
Speaker
I'm, I'm proud. I'm proud of how I managed through it, but I'm not satisfied because I do not think that's the best that I can do. So was this the first time there's a race that you had not finished that you then went back to? No, I have not finished tour, but I haven't gone back to tour and been, and gotten much past where I stopped. Um, but this is, yeah.
00:53:05
Speaker
As the first time, I guess, there's a race where you didn't finish, you came back and were successful in finishing it. Yeah. Um, albeit, you know, with challenges and, you know, not unsure how you felt about it along the way, but, um, spoiler alert, we did finish it. Um, you finished it, got it done, came in second place, but I think that is an interesting aspect to think about. And yet there's a lot of interesting things there to unpack. So going back just.
00:53:35
Speaker
quickly on that first day and the panic attack, were you able to diagnose what that was in the race? And was that the first time you were able to recognize that for what it was versus the previous times when it happens? Absolutely. I think, I don't remember if I realized it while I was running or if I realized it at camp at night, but it was like this light bulb went off, but I went, that's a panic attack. That's what's happening because I don't have them in everyday life.
00:54:04
Speaker
Um, I don't really have, uh, I think everyone has a certain level of anxiety and then some people have, you know, anxiety disorders. Um, but I haven't ever really had that, um, except actually one other time in real life, I did have definitely a panic attack.
00:54:22
Speaker
Um, but yeah, it was kind of this like massive realization that was really relieving of like, Oh my gosh, I know what this is and I can try to fix it now. That's fantastic. Like what a, do I wish that it happened? No, but what a gift to now be able to, to understand what was happening in my brain.
00:54:47
Speaker
and that actually I can figure that out and I can work with people to maybe not have it happen again or at least be able to like control it and work through it. Right right and so so day four um where before you hadn't gotten to the end of that day you did get to the end of day four so what did that feel like was that a relief did you still feel that pressure that was there did you feel like you
00:55:16
Speaker
play the dragons may be the wrong word or could you change dragons or which dragon was it at that point? How did you feel about it? Oh man, I actually, yeah, I got a little choked up when I passed the point that I stopped before and just, I felt this massive sense of relief that I had worked through it. Um, I did feel freer to, to start running better. I did run a lot better.
00:55:46
Speaker
four, five, and six once I got past that point. But yeah, it was definitely, I just felt this weight lift off and I did not realize how much I'd been carrying that. It was also, I think it was my first 29 team, that was my first DNF. That was my first really big, more big international multi-day hard race. And it was really,
00:56:16
Speaker
impactful. I was only 26, I think, 26 or 27 at the time, 26, that it happened. So I was really impressionable and just like I was devastated by that DNF. And so I think that there was so much that was playing into my head about the narrative of who I was and who I am now. Um,
Stage Racing vs. Continuous Racing
00:56:44
Speaker
which is why I think I struggled so much with those self-limiting and negative thoughts. So day four, you know, it's hugely relieving to get to the end. I think I moved up to third at that point. Felt like I was moving better. I was starting to eat better. So if I was super nauseous on day five, just nauseous, I'm just nauseous most of the time. It's not super fun. Yeah, I like,
00:57:11
Speaker
I think it was on day five. It was running fine on day five. And then the heat just really picked up. And I ran past someone and he was like, oh, how are you doing? I was like, I'd really love to just puke and play in a lake. And that's my dream come true right now. Just saying that actually made me feel a lot better. I also told people I was going to give up running and become a swimmer. That was my running joke with the finish line people.
00:57:37
Speaker
Uh, so that, um, I did feel a lot better. I moved better on day five, uh, and day six, but I still don't feel like again, I ran as well as I could have because even though I was kind of past like the day four, it's still, I mean, the girl who was in second place ended up dropping on day five. Like there's just so much that can go wrong so quickly in that race.
00:58:03
Speaker
that I think the whole time I was just playing it so cautiously that I never really went for it. And you know that's tough because there's always the question like well if you really went for it like maybe something would have gone wrong and maybe that wouldn't have you wouldn't have had a good outcome because I don't want to
00:58:24
Speaker
I don't want to say like, I'm not proud of how it did go well. I mean, I can't say that it didn't. It's just not the way that I feel I can perform. Um, so that's, it's tough. It like, that's a really tricky balance because I don't want people to think like, Oh, screw you. Let's say like you're mad about.
00:58:43
Speaker
coming in second and seventh, like seventh overall. And I'm not, I'm super proud of that. But also I think when you know yourself and you know like that's not the best that I can do, I think it's okay to recognize that as well. Yeah, I totally get it. It's always so interesting. You know, we're at home following the live tracker and it can look like, yeah, everything seems like it's going well and on plan, right? You were steadily moving up the field and throughout the days and moved into second, but it's always such a different story.
00:59:12
Speaker
when you're on the ground. And it's interesting. I mean, you've had really good success at this distance in a different format, like with Moab before. And I've only had one time where I've had a 200-plus mile race. But I certainly felt like I was running with a lot of fear and panic in the second half, certainly, just because these are such big, challenging events. And there is just a lot of unknown to it.
00:59:40
Speaker
One thing I wonder too, is how much is that just inherent to a challenge that big? Or I would hope if I go back to something like that, you know, I can stay a little bit calmer and avoid some of that fear and panic. And I think because of that, there's also time left on the table, but I don't know. You know, these are such unique, hard things that go so far beyond what we can do in our training. So yeah, I think it's also like, you know, what you would take away from this and next time do you feel like you could bring more?
01:00:10
Speaker
of that calmness and belief to it or think some of the challenges would still be there? Yeah, you know, it's a great question. I didn't feel that way at all at Moab. Moab was like the further I got along, the more fun I had. Like I got in my groove. I was really having a good time. Like when I think back on Moab, the first 50 miles were rough, but then I just think like, wow, what a great time I had for the rest of it.
01:00:35
Speaker
I think my Pacers would probably say there's more variation to that story than just, wow, let's have fun. But it's really like I think of that with such fondness. And it's not that I don't think of dragons with fondness. I just think of dragons with much more ups and downs. I mean, it also has more ups and downs of elevation, but just a lot more fear. And I think part of that is that when you're in camp,
01:01:02
Speaker
First of all, I mean, the volunteers are incredible. I mean, just like above and beyond the best people, like giving you hugs, cheerleading you, like awesome, awesome people. But you don't have a crew that's sitting there being like, fill up your water bottle, you know, change your shoes, do this. You're getting in the camp and the second you're in the camp, you need to be
01:01:24
Speaker
getting a recovery drink, washing up, getting your gear ready for the morning, getting food in, getting your sleeping bag and sleeping pad out. Like you're just so on 24 seven. And I actually, um, I've had people say like, Oh, stage racing is actually harder for me than doing the continuous 200. And I was like, that's kind of ridiculous. Like,
01:01:46
Speaker
You can sleep. I could sleep eight plus hours a night, which is unheard of. You don't do that in 200 miles. And now I'm like, oh my gosh. Yeah, I totally understand that because it is so stressful. I felt like I was stressed. It took me a while after the race to not feel stressed because you're stressed from the second you wake up to the second you go to sleep and also waking up in the night being like,
01:02:12
Speaker
It's three hours. So I have to like, get up and get going. And so, and I had a lot of time in camp, when you finish a bit faster, you know, you have more time to do all these things, there's people coming in at like 10 o'clock, and then getting up at 430 the next morning, which is just so, so impressive to me. But yeah, it's tough. And you and the thing is, is that if you start making small mistakes, then things start falling apart. And
01:02:42
Speaker
those small mistakes add up and you don't necessarily always realize that you're making those mistakes until a day, two days later. And so I think that adds to the fear of, am I doing enough to keep myself running well on day five? And the answer is, yeah, I did enough to, I was like,
01:03:07
Speaker
I was increasing, I was accelerating, I think through the final days, which is what I hope for. Honestly, I would have been curious to see if there were eight days to it. Not that I wanted to run eight days, but I feel like I was really getting in my groove, especially the last day. It was just like, it's something my coach and I have talked about where it's just like, oh, I am running.
01:03:29
Speaker
running is me, running is what I do. And that's all like, I didn't even, I wasn't even really thinking about the finish line, which was funny because I had like three miles left or two miles left. And some guy went flying past me and I was like, Alyssa, get going. You have two miles left. Why are you still just like, I'm just, you know, mosey, you know, not moseying, but like, you know, which is in this like grind mode. I'm like fricking move.
01:03:56
Speaker
your mind is probably like I'm gonna go back to camp and I'm gonna do my routine and I'll wake up tomorrow and I'll do it again because that's your life at that point right and you can't process like oh no this is it this is actually the end yeah exactly um and I don't think I really believed that I was going to finish until I was about like two miles out which is it's all it's all like bike path along the river for the last
01:04:22
Speaker
eight miles or so, but I was still like, what could go wrong? You know, am I going to get DQ'd cause I maybe went off route in a way I didn't mean to, you know, any of those things. And so it's like a mile from the fish and like, Oh my gosh, you're actually going to finish this thing. Like that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. I find the multi-day stage race really daunting and I haven't done it, but a lot of friends like Alex who've done it, you know, we'll say it is super tough and it's harder in a lot of ways than I think.
01:04:51
Speaker
I mean, that single push, 200 plus mile, like you kind of just get into a groove of you move, you eat, and you occasionally sleep. And it's a pretty simple way. Whereas the multi-day stage race does not sound simple. It sounds really complicated. And like you said, amazing volunteers, but you're still going to be sleep deprived towards the end and you got to be on top of all this stuff and all these logistics. And it sounds really hard and more gear you have to carry and yeah, just a lot of different tricky aspects to it.
01:05:18
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, they're really good about reminding you that camp, they call it camp management, is just as important as racing. It's like what you do in camp determines how the next day will go. It's totally true. It's funny, I had a conversation with Alex and then another friend, Bob, and we were talking about who we thought, because it is such a unique race. We're talking about who we thought from the US would be able to
01:05:47
Speaker
packet and you came up, I think you could do quite well at it. Um, and then, uh, John Kelly was another one that we, uh, brought to the table of, uh, cause I actually, there's a lot of runners who, if they asked me about, do you think dragons, I would enjoy dragons back. I would probably say, no, I actually don't think you would enjoy it. Not because it's not like it's a freaking incredible race.
Reflections and Future Aspirations
01:06:11
Speaker
Like I'm so thankful it's been in my life.
01:06:14
Speaker
but it is very unique in the demands and challenges. And it is not, you have to have a lot of experience, a lot of experience for it to be fun and to finish. Lots of experience and lots of spreadsheets. Is that what I mean? Yes. Yes. Which I think seems up your alley. Yeah, it could be, it could be. So Dragon's Back, you know, it's billed as hardest race in the world.
01:06:44
Speaker
And without a doubt, super big challenge. So having gone up against it, not finishing four years ago, finishing it now, how does that sit? And I guess a similar question to Canyon says it changed how you think about what's next or some of the future goals. Yeah. It's so I, I actually kind of, we talked about this, of this idea of world's toughest.
01:07:10
Speaker
And actually, the reason why I found Dragon's Back is because I googled in 2018, what are the world's hardest races? Guy in back comes up, Tor De Jean comes up, and I went, oh, cool. Oh, by the way, that you did that and then set out to run all those races. That's amazing. Or young and stupid, either way. Thanks for giving me the positive side of that.
01:07:36
Speaker
And, uh, yeah, I, you know, I think toughest is such an interesting measurement because I had a lot of people ask like, Oh, was it the hardest thing you've ever done? And I was like, truly no, it wasn't because I was playing it cautiously and I never, there was never really at any point other than the first day where I had to go into the dark depths of
01:08:03
Speaker
you know, everyone knows like Courtney calls it the pain cave. You know, I actually really never went there, which to me means I probably did push hard enough. But I was also afraid to go there because I didn't know what the other side of that it's like if I go too much into that too early or at the wrong time, I can't get myself out of it and do the next day. So I think honestly, no, it's not the hardest thing I've ever done. I can think of other
01:08:32
Speaker
very, very hard moments in life and in running that are that are quote unquote, like harder. Is it one of the toughest in the world? Yeah, I do think it is. I think dragons back and tour are two of the hardest races in the world, hands down. But I think that how you approach them, and I think that's kind of the beautiful thing about how you grow as an athlete is that
01:08:59
Speaker
moments in dragons back that maybe like five six years ago would have been like a nine or a ten like uh-oh Alarm sounding are now to me maybe like a five or six just because I now Kind of know like what's a real like that's a real nine or a ten This is like a five or six like I'm fine and I think that that's the beautiful thing like I had people ask me during the race and
01:09:23
Speaker
Afterwards of just like how do you get yourself in this tough moments? I'm like, well, well, I know what tough means and like this is not that bad And so that helps you through it also Just being able to like throttle back a little bit push forward And also just life experience where you're like, yeah, that's a 10 in real life like this is contrived like this is totally fine I could walk right off and be picked up in a couple hours and everything's great
01:09:54
Speaker
But I think that that's a really, we love the labels of like world's toughest and hardest and all of that. And I think everything is so relative. And that's the wonderful thing about gaining experience is that you understand how to control how you feel about things. So I think that that's an interesting question.
01:10:18
Speaker
Um, that will continue to be debated and talked about for years and years to come, but I would say incredibly tough race. Beautiful, incredible. What an experience and super thankful for it. You know, I, I'd say how would she keeps moving forward? I'm really excited to do a marked hundred miler. I was just like, Oh, cool. I may be racing in Thailand in December.
01:10:48
Speaker
And the UTMB world major there and I'm just like whoa What a what a fun concept of like it's actually over a hundred miles but like a hundred and eight miles on a march course with aid stations and like Easy. Yeah, so yes. Yeah, so that sounds super exciting to me. Yeah, so I am kind of
01:11:11
Speaker
Moving forward, you know, I'm excited to, I didn't, I think one of the things that bothers me too about the race is that I didn't feel I was being competitive because I like being competitive. I am a competitive person. And I just felt like because I was so worried, I wasn't able to turn that on ever.
01:11:30
Speaker
Um, and so I would just kind of like let people go and I'd be like, why are you not competing? Like why, where's like this drive that you usually have? And I just felt like that was really dampened. And so I'm excited to go into races. Um, I'm looking towards UTMB next year. You know, Thailand is a golden ticket race. We'll see. And so I'm excited to just be like, to like really be able to race. Cause I didn't feel like I could race dragons back to the extent that I wanted to.
01:12:00
Speaker
Um, so I think it was amazing to have that experience of like, you know, just really managed myself working through a lot of demons, realizing like I can come out the other side and have a positive experience and be proud of myself, but also like, I really like being competitive and I'm excited that I can, that I saw kind of the other side and be like, cool. Now I know how to channel it better. I can understand what gets me fired up. And yeah, I'm looking forward to.
01:12:31
Speaker
really going after that? Well, I mean, it's always good. These races and challenges are such good learning opportunities. So it's always great to take those kinds of things away as it sounds like you have. And then, you know, from an external perspective, too, it just seems like there's just a ton that you do well to celebrate and be proud of, right? Just from the overall performance of it, but also, you know, working through all those challenges and the 27% finish rate. And I think
01:12:59
Speaker
probably a much hotter year than usual and, you know, challenging circumstances, but then also some of the other things like, you know, working through how to understand and process the panic attack and getting through some of that and perspective on that. So, um, I think, you know, lots to celebrate there. And I think a lot that, you know, take forward and we'll serve you very well for whatever race, whatever challenge that may be. Exciting. Thanks. Yeah. You know, I think I've gotten.
01:13:30
Speaker
quite lucky the last two races. I wouldn't say Kings was a perfect race, but it was a pretty darn good one of like things going well. And I haven't had, you know, you kind of get on the street where you're like, Oh, yes, look at me. Like I've really nailed this hundred mile thing. And then you just get slapped across the face of learning experiences. And so I think it was
01:13:52
Speaker
great for me in Dragon's Back to be humbled by this race that had humbled me before so deeply and yet again humbled me. And to know again, it's like, yeah, you can have all of this experience. You can learn a lot and you can still have a lot of stuff happen and not realize how much your past can really come back and be sitting right there on your shoulder going, hey,
01:14:22
Speaker
Remember me? I'm still part of you. Yeah. So I think that was really great for me to, um, yeah, to go through all of that. Yeah. I think those challenges and those learning opportunities are a lot of times what we're looking for. They can take different forms, you know, racing ourselves from the past or competitive aspects. But I think a lot of times, at least that's for me, what I find motivating about doing these hard
01:14:51
Speaker
things and trying to grow and learn through doing it. Sounds like you did plenty of that. And I'm sure you'll continue reflecting on it and taking a lot away from this one. Yeah. Well, thanks for giving me the opportunity to really think through it. I feel like we've uncovered some things. Uh, so I appreciate it. Yeah, it was a pleasure. Yeah, it was fun. Awesome. Well, thank you for listening to the uphill athlete podcast. If you can,
01:15:19
Speaker
Go on your favorite platform, rate, review, subscribe. That helps us to help more mountain athletes and do our best to educate and inspire. So thanks, Will, for taking the time to be a part of this. And we'll actually be having you on suit again for wrapping up trail riding series, which we'll have to get scheduled. All right. Well, thanks for letting me crash and host today. It was fun. Awesome. Thanks, Will.
01:15:48
Speaker
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