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Francisco González!
131 Plays12 days ago
Ben and Jess talk with developer Francisco González (Lamplight City, Shardlight, and more) about his upcoming game Rosewater, his favorite sandwich in New York City, and what podcasters like us should know about adventure games.
Quest Quest podcast is Ben Vigeant and Jess Morrissette.
Editing by Ben Vigeant
Show art by Kevin "WilcoWeb" Wallace
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Ben: https://www.twitch.tv/ps_garak
Jess: https://www.twitch.tv/decafjedi
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast 'Quest'
00:00:24
Speaker
You know, so, okay. Welcome to quest quest. All right. So here's the thing about the theme, which is that, so I'm just pushing the buttons here. I'm Ben. This is quest quest. Uh, I'm here with Jess. Uh, that's me. Yeah. So when I push the button for the theme and there's no set time when I stop it, it's vibes. And so I just had like that thought this time where I was like,
00:00:54
Speaker
When, like it's always around the same time, but I don't have, there's not a time when it stops because it's like a three minute song. I've been thinking about this too because I spent like two days straight in the studio recording the vocals for this.
00:01:15
Speaker
And you always cut it out right before they begin. Like that's why it kills me. It's like I worked with a vocal coach. I paid a lot of money for that. I rented the studio and then you're just like fade out right before my big
Playful Banter and Guest Introduction
00:01:27
Speaker
intro. And it's a song about how much you love your daughter, which is like, I think it's frankly rude on my part to to not include it, but you know what? Listen.
00:01:36
Speaker
I'm not afraid to say I think something's bad. I'm not a coward. Wow. Ben you said you in the room you said it was great. You said literally we don't need a second take. Yeah. Well I'm not afraid to say something later when we're not. Welcome to Quest Quest the adventure game podcast and music criticism podcast. I'm Ben.
00:02:03
Speaker
I'm Jess. And today we have a a special guest. This is our second guest. I was thinking about this. You know how exciting it will be when we have our seventh guest? That will be great. We'll be able to be like, it's our seventh guest. And we'll be like, it's an adventure game podcast. It's our seventh guest. I've never played that. Anyway, should we talk about that game when we have our seventh guest? No, we're just gonna make that joke and then move on. um okay But then we'll talk about it.
00:02:31
Speaker
then we'll talk wait what's Alright, so I have a bio here I'll read and then we'll bring him in.
Francisco's Game Development Journey
00:02:39
Speaker
Francisco Gonzalez, also known as Grundislav, is a game developer who's been designing games since 2001, starting with the Freeware Ben Jordan series. That's my name, the first part. And then jumping into commercial development in 2014 with the Golden Wake.
00:02:57
Speaker
As a commercial developer, he's also made Shardlight, Lamplight City, and on March 27th of this year, when we're recording, that's a month and change, and when this comes out, that's just about a month. He's releasing his newest game, The Western Rosewater, which you can wishlist and play the demo, which I just played and I've been informed is a little old. Right now on Steam, welcome in. Thank you. Wow, what an introduction.
00:03:27
Speaker
I have to say I really now I'm sad that I'm not your seventh guest because I mean... Have you played it? I have. Many times. I've played it. Many times. I've played it more than once. In fact, I actually know a guy who was the line producer on that game. um That's our guest. That's the seventh guest. That's your seventh the guest, yeah.
00:03:53
Speaker
um Yeah, now, now you I tell you that I know the guy who was the line producer, you might be thinking, that's impossible. But that's ah that's a little reference there. Clearly, you guys haven't played it. I politely smiled. i'm not i wait chuck Actually, um, you can't well, it's not only have I played the seventh guest, but I am also the proud question mark what is this owner of The seventh guest board game, which you can't see on this audio podcast, but this is a board game that was actually, that it was, I believe it was kick-started. It was actually developed by the original developers. This isn't just some fan who was like, I'm going to make a seventh guest board
Games Recently Played and 'The Big Game'
00:04:40
Speaker
game. This is actually made by the, uh, the developers of the seventh guest. Look at this amazing, uh, art in the background where it's like ghost people playing this game.
00:04:53
Speaker
And it comes with like a little because the cards all have or the the questions all have the answers hidden like Sierra hint book style. So it comes with those little like red ah clue revealer things. Yeah. Anyway, I had no idea this existed.
00:05:09
Speaker
It sure does and it comes with little miniatures which I painted ah because for a while there during lockdown I got into painting minis and this game comes with like the little player pieces or little models of the characters and they're in black and they're they're monochrome so I painted them. um I've talked too much about the seven guests. No, I'm just in reverent awe. I love, I love uh, painted, but I, I don't have any art ability. Uh, so like I have a friend that's in to take your head. Yes. That's me. No, I was a Utah. so but Yeah. No, I mean, I could not begin to know. I can't speak for Ben. I assume Ben did have artistic ability. I do not. Uh, I mean, yeah, I could not paint a manager to save my life. So I respect anyone who does like, uh, well, you shouldn't
00:06:04
Speaker
because I respect them more than the troops. Oh, yeah. Ben has been very straightforward about that. Like in times when like you just came out of nowhere and I've always thought that was a strange thing to really drill down on. But yeah, Ben, explain that now. It's incredible. But, you know, usually we like to kick things off around here with the little segment we call. Why have you been playing?
00:06:33
Speaker
I can't.
00:06:38
Speaker
All right. Jess, do you want to go first? Sure. What? Jess, what have you been playing? Well, I've been playing. yeah As we record this, we're just a ah week away from the big game. And when I say the big game, everyone out there knows what I'm talking about.
00:06:56
Speaker
Are you trying to avoid us from getting sued? Yes, I don't want people to get sued. I don't want people to think that this podcast is somehow officially a sponsor of the big game. So I'm just going to call it the big gang.
00:07:12
Speaker
so As we record this, we're coming up on the big game. And like everybody, I've got American football on my mind. So I've been playing the only mobile game on my phone, the only mobile game I think that's ever been on my phone. I've been playing a little game called Retro Ball. Are either of you familiar with Retro Ball? I've never heard of it. Nope. Let me give this a ringing endorsement. You mean a ring-a-ding-dinging endorsement?
00:07:41
Speaker
thank you thank you so much ah shout out to juliey malone well i felt inspired by the So Retro Bowl is basically a mobile recreation of Tecmo Bowl. That was my guess. Yeah, and it's a touch control version of that graphics, almost identical gameplay. Very similarly, you're swapping up and down to like dodge tackles on the field and everything. It has a franchise mode. You can run like the front office and draft players and get free
00:08:17
Speaker
It's really fun. It's really satisfying. It's a rare offline game. It plays great on an airplane. I recommend Airbay. If you enjoy American football and old-school 8-bit gameplay, check out Retro Bowl. I used to work at a a place where part of my job, this was at a time where you could work at a company and You would like, I sat in a room with three other people and we tried to think of funny tweets for this company to have. That was a thing. That was like 5% of my job. That was a thing that we did. Blackwater. Yeah, it was Blackwater.
00:09:03
Speaker
And so before the big game, I say in air quotes, we did have to like, my my boss came in and said, you know, like we do have to euphemistically say the big game.
00:09:19
Speaker
And we sat there and banged our heads and wrote like a hundred potential tweets. And I think they used three and none of mine. And that was an hour of my day at that old job.
Adventure Game Design Challenges
00:09:35
Speaker
anyone And have never watched the big game since, right? Like you have boycotted every subsequent big game. So I've been playing. I was trying to get that on the on the but ah restart and missed it. I've been playing that. Yeah. I've been playing Peglin. Uh, I don't know. Uh, have either of you heard of Peglin? No. Is that how a diabetic Cumberbatch pronounces penguin?
00:10:05
Speaker
Uh, Peglin is just a, a, a peggle. I'm up. It is a rogue like peggle. And it is the game that I play if I am like watching something I want to give about 60% of attention. It's just a game that I play to kind of pass time. I've now played it enough that I've kind of
00:10:38
Speaker
gotten all the fun out of it. ah It's just a thing to do if you understand. I don't know if either of you have games like that where it's just like, this is a game that isn't very substantive to me. There's not a lot going on in it, and I've played it so much. There's very little in it for me. bye But Yeah, it's called Rosewater. Oh. No. Oh.
00:11:09
Speaker
But, you know, it's like peggle, except it's got some roguelike elements. It's perfectly fine. And that's what I've been playing. I've been playing it consistently for a year and a half all the time. Wow. Wow. And it's just now come up. Yeah. Well, you know, I didn't have a new one this week. I've been spending way too much money on acquiring property. So I'm not buying anything new for... Never a bit more important.
00:11:35
Speaker
or her A while. And when Ben says acquiring property, he is part of a monopoly larping group. A lot of people don't know that. but yeah i mean He's just going around live-actioning some St. James place and stuff. So, Francisco, what have you been planning?
00:11:57
Speaker
I just started last night, as a matter of fact, playing a charming adventure game, which is fairly neat ah out of the ordinary for me because I don't really play many adventure games. I think you might know it. I believe you did a a whole episode about it recently. It's called Locomotive. Oh! Yeah, that's the reaction you want.
00:12:20
Speaker
Yeah, I've i've been meaning to play it for a long time. I'm friends with the developer, Adam Riches and his brother, Joe. And I have been a very bad friend and I haven't gotten around to playing it because I've been busy. But I finally started playing it last night and I am just loving it. I didn't play very much. I played through the prologue. I got to the first act.
00:12:44
Speaker
And it is the most charming adventure game I have played in a very long time. i' am I'm baffled and dumbfounded by the sheer amount of detail in the animations. I love that everything has a bespoke animation. The voice acting is a lot of fun.
00:12:59
Speaker
um Of course, you know my developer brain is like, how did you do that? ah How do you get your sprites to do that level of body language? And of course, the answer is use Power Quest, which my response is no. What is what is Power Quest? so Power Quest is a plugin for Unity developed by Dave Lloyd from Power Hoof, who you might know from the Drifter and Crawl and other games.
00:13:30
Speaker
and it's basically he because there is There's already a plugin for Unity called Adventure Creator, which most people use, but Power Quest is is his version. it's He's trying to make it as much like AGS in Unity for people to like ease into it but I'm very lazy and I don't like learning new things so I'm just like I've been using AGS for 20 years I don't need to learn something new but anyway locomotive is great you should all play it it's fantastic and yeah so this is actually probably getting into ah the a little bit of the the subject of today but I'm actually curious when you play
00:14:13
Speaker
were Were you joking when you said that that you don't play that many adventure games or do you not know play that many? Okay, i don't i don't yeah yeah okay so i've I just started playing locomotive. I played death of the reprobate a couple of weeks ago.
00:14:27
Speaker
I played that one. Oh, that's Joe Richardson's games. He also did. um The first one is called For Last Things. The second one was called The Procession to Calvary. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. yes Yeah. Okay. Now I yes. Yeah. So if you see his games, you know, he's he's the guy who takes the Renaissance paintings and Monty Pythons them up to great. Great.
00:14:49
Speaker
Okay. Yes. Now I know exactly. Yeah. And Death of the Reprobate is the final one in the trilogy. It came out last November. It's great. I also played the Crimson Diamond. Oh, wow. Of course. Yeah. I think you were a backer of that, right? Because I think your name is in the credits. I was not. My name was probably in the credits because I helped Julia out figuring out certain things in AGS, like how to make mirrors work.
00:15:15
Speaker
Yeah, that game kicks ass i love it's great. It's fantastic. ah But yeah, basically, i I don't play a lot of adventure games in my spare time anymore. um If I'm going to play a game, it's going to be on my PlayStation, and it's probably going to be an action game.
00:15:31
Speaker
um Is it because you know how the sausage is made? I mean, is that the problem? how You said like earlier, you mentioned turning off your adventure developer brain. Is that part of the challenge for playing them? or i think I think that's a large part of it. I always remember when I was a senior in high school in English and we were you know analyzing literature and stuff and like you know symbolism and whatever.
00:15:57
Speaker
And I couldn't watch movies anymore without like analyzing them. And I was like, I can't enjoy movies anymore because I'm, I'm, I'm too busy. I like, I have this lens I'm looking at them through and it's kind of the same thing, you know, where like now if I play adventure games, I, I try to enjoy them, but there's, there is a part of me that I can't turn off. It's like, hmm.
00:16:20
Speaker
How did they do that? Or why did they do that? Or what would I have done? You know, so it's not that it saps my enjoyment of them, but also at the same time, I'm sitting at my PC making them all day. So I don't want to sit at my PC playing them all day, really. Yeah. so Yeah. I feel like I like a jerk saying that, but it's it's the. No, that that makes total sense. And it it reminds me of when I ah completed Uh, my, uh, the, a program that I did at the, the second city many, many years ago. And I was like a 21 year old super comedy nerd. And this was like going to space camp. Like I had.
00:17:06
Speaker
I they would ask a question they'd say like do you know like this comedy thing from the 40s and I'd be like yes yes I do I do I know that I was such a big comedy dork at the time and then at the the very end ah during like our evaluations with all the teachers their main criticism for me was you need to not know that much about comedy. You need to stop watching comedies. You can't like just keep soaking in comedies you like the
00:17:45
Speaker
One of the teachers was like, you should get lost in an alley. should ah Another teacher who was like, go to a baseball game. Just stop watching comedies. You know too much. You're like, we start a sentence and you finish it. Knock it off. And ah it was actually some of the best advice I've ever been given. If I can do a little bit of a humble brag,
00:18:11
Speaker
um i I'm you may have heard of a little event that happens oh fairly often every year in
Analyzing Comedy and Criticism
00:18:19
Speaker
London called Adventure X who and the first few years Adventure X had a quiz where they would it was like an audience you know divide the room into kind of like do the quiz it was all about like adventure game trivia I won that quiz ah like so many times that I was made the host because I wasn't allowed to participate anymore anymore because I knew too much obscure adventure. I think the only other person who's hosted it who's known more obscure adventure game trivia than me has been Richard Cobbett. Our other guest. Your other guest.
00:18:59
Speaker
that we only go to the best that we invite me on I mean, you know, who has there been a third host so we could reach out to them? um I hosted I hosted it in I want to say 2018 and Richard did it at the year the last year that was at the British Library. I don't think they've had it again. Because okay, it's just been you know,
00:19:26
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. It's weird. um Yeah, yeah. Yeah. so Now I know this experience, you know, my version of this is grad school where it's similar in that, you know, it breaks down into everything is being critical of everything else. It's like the skill they're teaching you is how to be critical of things you read, of things you take in. And it becomes a competition because the best student is going to be the one who's best at being critical, which of course, outside of your classes just turned you into a tremendous asshole.
00:19:59
Speaker
Um, and, and that was my experience.
Favorite Sandwiches and Serendipitous Stories
00:20:04
Speaker
You're like, you know, I'd be with a friend and be like, Oh, that's a, that's a pretty cat over there. And I'd be like, well, I mean, is it though? Because we think, yeah I mean, it's not a way to live. It's just not. Yeah.
00:20:15
Speaker
You say that as there are two cats sitting like on the the camera. Right next to Francisco. Yeah, I mean, I wish our viewers do this. so And I wish our viewers reviewers and not listeners. But you can't because you aren't. Yeah, and that's that.
00:20:33
Speaker
Uh, so, uh, Jess, would you like to to talk about our topic of discussion for today? and Yes. these tom question I wrote questions. Our topic for discussion today. And Francisco, I want to get this out there right away who because this is something we've talked a lot about in previous episodes and that like a lot of ways to the centerpiece of what we do here at QuestQuest.
00:20:59
Speaker
What's the best sandwich in New York City? o Now, you can answer this in a contemporary form, or if you choose instead to think about the best sandwich in the early 2000s, we also talk about that.
00:21:14
Speaker
so Why the early 2000s? Well, it wasn't the early 2000s. He's referencing that I'm referring to my knowledge of New York, which is way out of day. Oh, I see. I see. Well, I mean, I've only been living in, well, only, I've been in New York 11 years now. So, um, I guess that's a fair amount of time. amount of time to say Yeah, no, it is. I guess, I guess I've hit the 10 year, uh, limit. Um,
00:21:42
Speaker
I actually had a little brief conversation with Ben about this off yeah camera, off pod a few days ago. um So i'm I'm a sandwich guy. Don't get me wrong. I like I'll eat a sandwich morning, noon and night. um But I don't have a go to place right now, because there was a place that was called Shorty's. That was my favorite sandwich place. It was in the financial district. It was right next to the Francis Tavern, which is historically famous for being the tavern where George Washington said goodbye to his troops. Although I tell people it's where George Washington threw up, but that's an entirely different story. We don't have time to get into that right now. Oh, I'll tell you that story. Put a pin in that after we're off the air. I want to tell you a funny story about that. Anyway,
00:22:37
Speaker
Shorties. Bonus content. Bonus content, yeah. Shorties, yeah. Shorties is a Philly cheesesteak place. And they're doing, yeah, because I love me a Philly cheesesteak, even though I've only been a Philly once. And it is great. Yeah, it's great. And I had a Philly cheesesteak there, because I had to. But anyway, Philly is Shorties is a place that imported their bread from Philadelphia to be as authentic as possible with their Philly cheesesteaks. Great place, loved it.
00:23:07
Speaker
went there ah to celebrate the 2020 election. It was a good place. um And then they shut down because they didn't survive COVID. And now they're they are a high-end dispensary, which is just very sad to me. So all my few shorties. In a way, a cheese steak shop is also sort of a dispensary of its own kind. I mean, yeah Yeah, I also feel that they go hand in hand. Yeah, right. Because if you go to the dispensary, you're probably gonna end up at a cheese steak shop. they Yeah, are fortunately Chicago's best cheese steak place Monty's, which also flies in rolls from Philadelphia. and I assume in New York, they just drive them up since it's probably no, an hour. and You got to keep them fresh got to fly them.
00:24:03
Speaker
i don't I'm sure they drive them. I'm sure it's on a truck or something to hear. Whatever. Anyway, ah that Monty's is still open. Thank God. And they even have tasty cakes if ah you're a tasty Cakesman. What's a tasty cake? A tasty cake is a ah Philly Like it's it's a little like a tiny little cupcake type cake thing ah that they sell in Philadelphia. It's just a nice little like local can can I go out a little sandwich tangent while we're talking about. sandwiches Yes. Okay. What what podcast do you think you're on? Of course you can go on a sandwich tangent. Thank you.
00:24:46
Speaker
so So I'll get the easy one out of the way first. i have ah I have a story that is about sandwiches and adventure games and serendipity, which I love. So I went to the movie. No, just the concept. up
00:25:02
Speaker
So, so I was visiting New Orleans ah over the summer a couple of years ago. My favorite city. I love New Orleans too. I love it. And that one of the things I love about New Orleans is the food and I love the sandwiches, specifically the po' boys and I love me a good shrimp po' boys. So I got there on a Friday night. i I went there with my best friend who was coming from Houston, but he came by train. So of course it took like seven years for him to arrive. ah So I'm not exaggerating Amtrak takes like 20 hours to get from Houston to to New Orleans, despite the fact that it's like right there. yeah Yeah, they are close. It took me I took me two and a half hours to fly from New York. Right. Anyway, so basically, I had some time to kill. So I went out and I got myself a po boy. And I went to ah a po boy shop that was on Bourbon Street. And Jess was streaming Gabriel Knight sins of the fathers.
00:25:56
Speaker
You remember this? Yes, I do remember this now. I'm sitting there waiting, I'm standing there waiting in line for my po-boy on this shop on Bourbon Street and he's playing the game and I'm watching it on Twitch because I'm like, I need to do some. And all of a sudden I'm like, you know, I'm on Bourbon Street. So in the chat, I'm like, Hey, Jess, could you, you know how like when you hover the mouse over the map screen, like it shows you what street it is? Oh, I love that.
00:26:21
Speaker
And he hovered over the street where St. George's Books are. And I kid you not, it was literally the corner that I was on. It was the corner of Bourbon and Dumaine. And I was like, Oh my God, I'm here. And then I took a picture because like where canonically St. George's Books is, it's like a burger shop. So I took a picture of it and I put it on Twitter. And then of course, all the adventure game fans were like, Oh my God, Gabriel Knight turned his bookstore into a burger shop. And I was like, Oh, that's funny.
00:26:51
Speaker
But yeah, that was our gone about that but that was such a bizarre nerdy coincidence that it was amazing to me. Anyway, the other thing. Can I piggyback this question though? Okay.
00:27:04
Speaker
gang how do we feel i know we all love po boys because who wouldn't right of course i mean um where are we at um muffa lata oh my god oh yeah muffa lata is great i will not go to new orleans tonight i will not go to new orleans without going to the napoleon house and getting a muffa lata and a sazerac that is 100 you have to The last time I was in New Orleans, because when I go to New Orleans, it is a Gabriel Knight tour of New Orleans. That's the only reason I'm there. As far as I know, it's the only piece of pop culture that's ever been set there. um
00:27:37
Speaker
There was a little drugstore just off of Jackson Square um that had the most amazing Mufaleta I've ever tasted. I'd like look this up and done my research. I think I know where you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a little lunch counter. I think I think i'll actually know where you're talking about.
00:27:59
Speaker
I wish I knew the name of it was so oh man yeah that that like olive tapenade oh my god you guys are killing me I'm sorry you know I am thinking about the spicy fried shrimp po boy that I had in a garden district last time I can't be spicy but yeah I I shouldn't do spicy anymore because my stomach can no longer tolerate it, but I still have it. Listen, I i drank two cups of c cups. I drank two like this much of fireball whiskey at Magfest and I had heartburn all night. That's why I'm at two. Yeah, I have a New Orleans
00:28:43
Speaker
a fireball story. But like again, let's let's save that for the Patreon. So continue, please, Francisco. Okay, so so that was that. The other thing is, so I mentioned I've lived in New York for 11 years, so I grew up in Miami. And it is impossible to find a good Cuban sandwich anywhere in the Northeast. I'm sorry. But it is impossible. I see faces that are like, Oh, the Cubano. I'm like, No, no, no, no, you commit. I've seen some places in New York commit travesties. So a Cuban sandwich,
00:29:12
Speaker
the right way to do a Cuban sandwich is first well there's there's actually two versions there's can I can I pause here and phrase so this this this ties into the the actual theme of the this episode okay what are people getting wrong about Cuban yes thank you i you be thank you thank you for tying it into the theme it all ties together beautiful people getting it wrong Okay, so Cuban sandwich, there's the there's the classic Cuban sandwich, and then there's the mayo noche, which is the midnight sandwich, which is called that because the idea is that you have it as your midnight snack. They're essentially the same sandwich. The only difference is the bread. A Cuban sandwich is on your traditional Cuban bread, which is made with lard, which is lovely.
00:29:58
Speaker
the meianoches is on I don't know what kind of bread, but it's like a sweeter kind of bread. It's pressed. They're both pressed. So it has ham, has pork. It has ah cheese melted cheese, which is usually usually Swiss cheese. It has a slice of pickle and it has mustard. I have seen, I have seen like,
00:30:21
Speaker
diced pickle I have seen mayonnaise I have seen I have seen like ah the wrong cheese no one no the only place there's one place there's one place in New York called I think it's called me salsa kitchen or something like that it's like in it's it's close to the Lower East Side they do a decent one but it's also owned and run by Venezuelans, which is fine, but it's not super authentic, whatever, I don't care. But that's as close as I've come to a good Cuban sandwich in New York, and it's impossible otherwise. And I just, I miss it so much. That and public subs. Public subs, whenever I go back down, oh wait, you, oh, West Virginia's two more. I've never been to Miami. I know Publix. I know Publix. Okay,
Misconceptions in Adventure Game Design
00:31:08
Speaker
you have Publix. You're talking grocery store, yeah. I'm talking to grocery store, yeah, Publix goes all the way up to, do they have them in West Virginia?
00:31:14
Speaker
We don't, think but I used to live in Georgia. Oh, so yeah they they have them in Georgia. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Public, public subs are another, another thing that you i have to go whenever I go back home. It's one of those things where you're like,
00:31:28
Speaker
All of this stuff, it it sounds like all the stuff to make ah good a Cuban sandwich exists. Yes. In New York. Yes. It's just that people aren't getting it right. Which is something I see all the time as someone from the New York Metro area, when I buy a bagel in Chicago, they're not as good. And it's not like people have done tests. It's not the the water. It's just that people don't do them right here. There's one place I've been to that that makes like actually good New York style bagels. ah in And it's not even in the city. It's in one of the suburbs.
00:32:09
Speaker
uh and it drives me insane i'm like well you can make this that this isn't like a thing it's not like a secret thing like and but but everyone here is just like what if i did it slightly different it's like no do it right ah don't steam it ah you boil it we know you've been you say that but I just came back from a ah short trip to Puerto Rico and while I was there I stopped in a ah local sandwich shop a subway
00:32:43
Speaker
and but and i ah ordered the Cubano because they had one. And it's like, oh first of all, I'm going to guess out of all the Caribbean, it's probably Puerto Rico that has the best Cubanos. So obviously, I mean, you know this is the biggest sandwich chain in the world. It looks like Francisco's disconnected.
00:33:05
Speaker
It must be some internet problem. and So I ordered it, and you know, I'll tell you what. It had surprisingly good roast pork ah that was microwaved for for me with some swish cheese and with some mayonnaise and with chips. No! I'm sorry, mustard. I misspoke. It was mustard. I added mayonnaise. No! And let me tell you,
00:33:32
Speaker
Let me tell you, it was delicious. having I don't knock it until you've tried a Puerto Rican Subway Cabana before you say there aren't good ones out there. I guess that's that would be, yeah. So I was at St. Thomas and I went to their Jersey Mike's and I went and got their vegan sandwich.
00:33:53
Speaker
yeah you i let's it's ok so we to the theme ah the episode yes you take it away because you started to write stuff down okay francisco it is what we the episode We want to know as a couple of real nincompoops.
00:34:14
Speaker
What are the biggest misconceptions that non-developers like us have about designing adventure games? What are the biggest misconceptions those lay people have?
00:34:27
Speaker
well So I think this is a fascinating topic, but I also have no idea how to answer until you tell me what your ideas and ah impressions are, because I don't actually know what you think. um i'm I'm honored that you had me on to be your well actually guy. Yeah, that's right.
00:34:51
Speaker
um but we wanted you to be Adam Conover here is is not correct it should be a lot poofier yeah I'm sorry I don't have the volume for that well here all right well here's here's something you like every now and again ah you've you've ah like I've seen you, uh, in the chat on my stream and occasionally on Jess's stream. And so I'm sure on other people who stream adventure games, is there ever been a thing where like, you know, myself or Jess or, or, uh, somebody else, uh, like says something, uh, and, and you're just like, Oh yeah no, I'm shaking my fist. No. I mean, what looks really easy to someone like us that isn't or, you know, those sorts of things.
00:35:41
Speaker
Well, I mean, I can't speak for all, all adventure developers. I can really only speak for myself. Um, I don't know. I guess, I guess. I don't know. It's.
00:35:54
Speaker
It's weird, like in my position, so like I'm just a guy making adventure games, right? Like I started doing this, never imagining that I would make it, ah make, be able to make a living off of doing it. Like I consider myself extremely lucky that I can make this a sustainable career.
00:36:14
Speaker
Um, so like, I don't know any, I kind of feel like, you know, I say like anybody could have done this if they wanted to. Like I'm just like, you guys, I played all the classics growing up. Like i I just wanted to do it and I somehow managed to make it work. So like, I don't really consider myself any sort of authority on anything aside from just like, well, this is, I know this is what it, what the process entails. And maybe, I don't know, I guess my, I guess the one thing that I always kind of i hesitate I mean, it's it's kind of a pet peeve, I guess, if we're going to call it something like that. But I just kind of, I don't know, the the assumption that like adventure game developers are doing it just to pay homage to the classics
00:37:00
Speaker
that they're doing it just because they liked the games and they want to pretend to be those games, right? Like it kind of comes down to not being taken seriously. And it, it also comes from a point of like unhealthy nostalgia where it's like, we can't move on from these games.
00:37:21
Speaker
from 30 years ago. So why should anyone else? I don't know. Is that and I believe I've heard Dave Gilbert make a very similar point to that. We're talking about his work. Yeah. Yeah, we we share a lot of the same opinions with regards to this aspect of things because it's like, you know, yeah actually, it's funny because I was so to bring up Magfest again, where I met Grayson. And Friend of the pod. Friend of the pod. He's a friend of the pod, yeah. To my great surprise, Laurie and Corey Cole were at Magfest.
00:37:55
Speaker
um I knew that they were going to be showing off their their game or like that their game was going to be exhibiting there. I didn't know that they themselves were going to be there. um And I've i've had the the the fortune to interact with them on several occasions. we We actually shared an Airbnb last summer at the Adventure Game Fanfare in scenic Tacoma, Washington.
00:38:19
Speaker
And I was talking to them, and we were chatting, and they asked me about Rosewater, and Lori asked me what style the game was in. And I told her, it's pixel art, but it's high res, it's rotoscoped. And she was like, oh. And I was like, I took that as my opportunity. I was like, you know, it really makes me mad.
00:38:36
Speaker
When people are like, the only reason that you make adventure games in low resolution is because you wanted to look like the old games. And I'm like, no, it's not because of that. It's because it's the technical artistic limitations I can't draw very well. And she's like, that's right.
00:38:52
Speaker
call i'm justified Well, I was thinking like, you know, in, uh, lamplight city and in like the demo of Rosewater, uh, like I don't, I don't think of those necessary, like they're, they're not in the.
00:39:13
Speaker
Like there's there's kind of the the pixel art house style. yeah Yeah. Right. And and those are definitively not like I mean, they're they're in a higher resolution. But I don't look at either of those games. Like maybe I'll say like there's a at the the beginning of the Rosewater demo, um there's the unlucky gentleman who's thrown out a window. Right. Defenestrated. I like to say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's in the game.
00:39:42
Speaker
And like, if I'm going to compare that, wow look to to anything and maybe it's because it's also rotoscoped. I was like, in my head, I'm like, Oh man, that, that reminds me of like, stuff I loved in the last express. And you were going to say the last. yeah Obviously. obviously yeah is Well, that's the thing. That's the thing. And I have to acknowledge this and I understand because there's very few points of reference for a lot of things.
00:40:08
Speaker
My, my joke is always like, if you're an indie dev and you're making an adventure game, and if it's 320 by 200, it's monkey Island. If it's any higher resolution than that, it's broken sword. Cause those are the only two touchstones, anybody. i goes And it's fine. You know, like it's, it's, it's fine. Those are great games. It's an honor to be compared to them.
00:40:27
Speaker
But the notion that like the the did that indie devs are striving to recreate that. And of course, like I say, I can only speak for myself. I'm sure there must be indie devs out there who probably are doing that.
Integrating Story and Setting in Games
00:40:40
Speaker
But like the idea that like you know people are still doing this for the express purpose of just ah feeding off of nostalgia is is not something that I particularly enjoy people thinking.
00:40:58
Speaker
Especially well, but the only nostalgia based less or less one which hasn't come out yet, but will be out obviously by the time this is ah was on Hypnospace Outlaw. And so i still haven't played to my great shame. I hear great things about it. Yeah, I'm just playing it now. And it is fantastic. Tune in to our last episode to learn more.
00:41:20
Speaker
no Um, but, uh, I mean, that, uh, uh, lays on a lot of nostalgia but of a completely different kind. Sure. Yeah.
00:41:33
Speaker
yeah this is it the girl ahead but please Yeah, I think the nostalgia things are tough because yeah, know you know, a lot of the people who still love this genre grew up playing it. And yeah I do think there's a little subsection of the fandom who just want to see their greatest hits and favorites sort of recycled for them.
00:41:52
Speaker
But and I mean, I say this is someone who was part of creating a game that existed solely to recycle some of their favorite bits for them in stair quest, you know, it's, I mean, that one was definitely, you know, we're going to cram nostalgia down your throat was the the approach there. But now I do think it's fascinating to you know, that a lot of the I think most important creators that are doing this right now seem to be trying to do anything but that, not just rehash the greatest hits of the genre but from going on 30 years ago now. ah no I think you make a really good point there. I'm curious why maybe you see as some of the biggest
00:42:37
Speaker
lessons that you've learned me as someone who's been doing this for a long time now. Going all the way back to the Ben Jordan series, you know, but but like, what have you learned since the first time you picked up adventure game studio where the biggest lessons either in terms of design or even just strictly the technical side. So I know you're probably far advanced on the technical side, but um mill I have no program experience outside of just tinkering with AGS for 20 years. And even still, there's stuff that I'm like, how do I do this? But um I've definitely learned ah basically how to not
00:43:15
Speaker
do what I just said. Because when I started the Ben Jordan games, you know, my experience was, hey, I played adventure games, and I liked adventure games, let me try and recreate that. And when I was thinking about puzzles, it was just kind of like, well, what kind of puzzles are in the games I like? What kind of, ah you know, stuff did they do? And so there was there's a bunch of real stinkers in the Ben Jordan series, like there's moon logic, there's ridiculous stuff.
00:43:43
Speaker
And I think, you know, focusing more on and actually making games that I want people to pay to pay money for, it because it's one thing to, you know, make a game that's free to download. You get a lot more leeway in the quality of those games versus asking people to shell out their hard earned cash for something, you know, is, is I've thought a lot more about.
00:44:06
Speaker
ah with regards to like puzzle design, for example, you know, integrating it more into the story. So it makes more sense so that every puzzle teaches you something about the world or the characters or whatever. So it's not just, oh, hey, I need a, I need this random object to let you proceed. Bring me this random object. Okay. Now it's time to.
00:44:25
Speaker
come up with a puzzle chain with even more random stuff to get this random object, you know? So I think that's probably the biggest thing that I've learned in my time doing this, is just trying to fit it all together. I still don't know exactly how. There's no special sauce on how to do it. It's still a very fine line to walk in making a good puzzle, but- It's tough. I mean, if yeah. I feel like if the puzzles in any adventure game are too organic, they stop feeling like puzzles, right? I mean, it's just sort of, you know, the and they have to stand out a little bit to be puzzley, but if everything feels like, well, I had a game and I had to go back and work puzzles into it periodically to actually segment it up, into something that you know moved in a linear fashion. Yeah, it stands out like a sore thumb a little bit. I'm guessing, just knowing why I know of your work, that you probably, I'm guessing, start with story and then try to integrate puzzles from there. i mean ah what
00:45:27
Speaker
What comes first for you when you're doing this sort of work? Yeah, I mean, usually I start I actually start with setting, first of all, because I think about like, you know, what, especially with Lamplight City and Rosewater, since it's an alternate history, you know, I wanted to do the get the world building and all of those details and stuff, you know, so I could have like a world Bible, so to speak.
00:45:49
Speaker
Um, but yeah, I mean, I generally think about the story beats and, you know, where I want the thing to go. And then I start thinking about, well, what, what kind of interesting puzzles or obstacles can I put in to, you know, not just have it be a ah story that you're passively watching, but actively playing.
00:46:10
Speaker
Um, so yeah, but, uh, but I do definitely agree with you that, yeah, if the puzzles are too organic or too logical, then people are just like, well, this game's too easy because of course you would use this hammer to pry a nail. Yeah. To drive a nail or to like pull a nail out of a wall and not, you know, combine it with a piece of taffy and two pennies to make a, I don't know, rudimentary tool to, I don't know. Anyway.
00:46:39
Speaker
Yeah. I'm a little curious. I was i was thinking like especially as is ah writing the the little bio and kind of thinking as I was playing through the Rosewater demo today.
00:46:58
Speaker
i
00:47:01
Speaker
The, a lot of the, you said you start with setting, um, like a lot of the, like the, of like your, your four commercial games, I would say they're all pretty non-traditional settings. Right. Like this one is Florida, uh, in what, the twenties? Yeah. And, uh, Charlotte is like a post-apocalyptic, if I recall correctly, post-apocalyptic future with a deadly play that came out in the timely year of 2016.
00:47:32
Speaker
wow yeah I haven't revisited that one. the mask size that were cool Well, yeah, but it's also interesting that she puts on her mask when she goes out into the to the wilderness and she takes off her mask when she's in public with everybody around I got a few things wrong, you know.
00:47:53
Speaker
the ruless of us all Exactly.
00:47:58
Speaker
Uh, and then, and then this, uh, like, uh, yeah. And then these, these two both in, uh, new, uh, Britannia. Did I get that right? You did get it right. Very good. I mean, well, yes. I mean the, the over the, the world that what I'm calling the franchise on Steam is world of Vespucia. Cause the country is Vespucia. New Britannia is specifically the city that is nicknamed lamplight city, but yes. Right. Yeah.
00:48:28
Speaker
uh and then uh and then like a western and i think like we've talked about this like on on discord even it's like how many western adventure games are there there's not many pretty farkas and there's an lmo and there's the fenimore filmore series which is a bit more obscure uh wait have i played that i'm now there's three of them there's the first one is called three skulls of the toltex the second one is called the westerner and the third one is i believe benimore philmore's revenge it's got a fairly nondescript title there was a western now i'm thinking about this there was this western um
00:49:13
Speaker
adventure game that I played and it was like in a pixel art style. Oh, is that Fester mud and the curse of the gold? Because that was another one. Wow. Must have been Yeah, because I played that on my phone. It had an iPhone. Yeah, it very well may have been that one. That one was supposed to be episodic. And I think Josh Mandel wrote on the first episode. That's right.
00:49:34
Speaker
Yeah, and I think they're I don't think it finished. I don't recall. Only the one came out. Yeah, I only played that one. And then I think it ended on a cliffhanger. And then I was yeah. oh Yeah, that's the curse of it's not just the curse of the goal is the curse of episodic games, unfortunately.
Puzzle Design and Communication in Games
00:49:52
Speaker
Yeah. Uh, but, but yeah, I mean, I guess what, what drew you to doing like non, non, like, was that a aim or, or is that just something that just kind of occurred? Like just what it just kind of, interesting to you yeah, yeah, basically. Cause I mean, I had, I had come up. So, so the whole reason that lamp light city is even in an alternate history is because.
00:50:14
Speaker
I made a Golden Wake which was very much a specific historical place and I kind of felt like I leaned too much into the historical aspect of it and in a way I kind of sacrificed like the characters and the story for the sake of like being like well I have to depict this historical event that you know Um, so I didn't want to be, I didn't want that to happen again. I wanted to make a detective game in the 19th century, but I didn't want to be like, well, this has to be London or this has to be New Orleans or this has to be New York. So I was just like, well, I'll just cherry pick what I like about all of that.
00:50:48
Speaker
and I'll make my own thing and I did and I spent so much time doing that that I was like well this is cool what uh what else in this world can I explore and I was like well what's what's happening at the same time well the old west let's see what it looks like in this world and I was like okay sure why not i like this old genesis of it I like in this in this old history, like universe, the old West is also still to the West. They're like, Oh, sure. yeah Where else would it be better? The Westerns are only in the West. You know,
00:51:25
Speaker
it would all fall apart. I mean, that's like half the concept. Yeah. The other parts old.
00:51:32
Speaker
My favorite thing is on sci-fi programs, like when they talk about the old West, but it's far enough in the future, they're like the ancient West or something like that. That's always a fun moment. I'd like to see Star Trek do more of that.
00:51:45
Speaker
how How frustrating can it be as someone ah developing adventure games watching, like if you've watched someone like, I don't know if you watch people stream your own games, ah perhaps you don't, but like someone have difficulty with a puzzle and you're like, it's right there. Has that occurred? and You can use a voice chamber. More times, more times than you know. um i i I would bet it's anytime. ah it yeah I generally don't like watching people stream my own game, my games, because obviously ah I get embarrassed and I'm just like, oh God, oh i don't I don't want them to, you know, say horrible. ah I don't want them to feel like they have to say nice things because I'm in the chat. So usually I'll just pop in and be like, hey, thanks for playing, whatever, bye.
00:52:39
Speaker
And then I secretly stay in the chat to see if they say no, I'm kidding. No, I don't. um But no, I do. I have seen that I before before COVID. ah There used to be a fairly regular ah expo sort of seasonal expo thing by an organization here in New York and I would take my games and have people play them and you know they'd play like the demo part ah and sometimes people would get stuck sure but and part of it yeah is a bit frustrating but at the same time it's a great beta test because if you see where people are getting stuck you have to ask yourself well why are people getting stuck there why is the thing that seems obvious to me not
00:53:24
Speaker
not working for the person playing. So then, of course, you have to go back and redesign it and figure that out. um There's a great example in Shardlight, where it was a huge sticking point for people. And if I could go back and fix it now, I totally would. But did did either of you play Shardlight? I played it, I think, pretty close to release. So i actually my my recollection of Shardlight's individual puzzles is probably dim. But if you start to talk about it, maybe maybe I will be enlightened.
00:54:03
Speaker
Okay, I will make this as I'll try and make this not as long winded as it can be. um So there's so Charlotte was a good example of ah there was a lot of examples there too of like puzzles that I was kind of like, Oh, this would be a cool puzzle and it doesn't really integrate necessarily great into the story.
00:54:22
Speaker
About midway through the game, there's a scene where, spoilers, a the main character Amy finds that the group of rebels that she's been sort of recruited by have all been massacred by the evil people. And their hideout is all in shambles and she's like, oh my god, where's the leader? And she has to find the leader. She has to find a clue to where the leader has gone. And the puzzle involves ah linking some pegs on a chalkboard with some string to spell out the name of someone to get the clue, which is pretty convoluted. That was the hardest puzzle for me. I remember seeing it being like, this is an adventure game puzzle. No, and I'll tell you why the puzzle's hard, and I know this now. It's not that the linking the strings part is hard. That's not the hard part of the puzzle. It's the buildup to it, because in order to do that puzzle,
00:55:14
Speaker
You have to find a piece of paper that has like, uh, it's a letter with like parts of it redacted so that the only letters are the letters that you're supposed to link. So it's like, you know, whatever E I would, and then you're supposed to find a piece of string or a bunch of strings to actually connect the things.
00:55:33
Speaker
And when you first get there, the guy, like the guard of the door, like dramatically dies and he knocks over a vase. And when you search the vase, you find the paper with the clue on it. So already you're like, Oh, this is a puzzle. I have to solve. You go inside, you talk to this kid that's in there. That's a friend of yours. And he's, he says in dialogue, he says something like, Oh, because there's this whole thing about like the vaccine lottery and how you have a lottery ticket and whatever.
00:56:03
Speaker
So he's, he, he casually mentions that he's like looking for a lottery ticket. I don't even think, I don't even think he says it that clearly, but he, the idea is that he's saying he's looking around in the rubble for a lottery ticket. Right. You find the chalkboard, you have this clue, you talk to him, you don't care what he says, you found this chalkboard and you have this clue and you're like, how do I solve this puzzle? So you're like, as the player, you're like, yes, I have to solve this puzzle.
00:56:29
Speaker
Now what you also have to do is in order to get those strings, you have to give him this lottery ticket that you're carrying. And he's like, Oh, thanks. Oh, and by the way, I don't have anything for you really, but have this, these strings. So you get the strings and then you can solve the puzzle. The sticking point is nobody thinks to give the lottery ticket to the kid because they're too focused on the puzzle. Now there's a very, very easy way to switch to fix this.
00:56:55
Speaker
And the easy way to fix this is you switch the location of the things. You get the bundle of string in the base and you give him the ticket. Because at this point, if you just find a chalkboard and you have the strings and you can use them, you're like, Oh, I don't, I don't understand. You could say, Oh, here, and he's looking through papers. He could say, Oh, look, I found this paper. You can have this, right? That would, so that would, so I mean, it wouldn't be a perfect solution, but it would be a better solution than it exists now.
00:57:20
Speaker
And I to this day, I still am like, Oh, I wish I could go back and fix that. But again, live and learn. I love this explanation. And I thought that was absolutely fascinating. loved Every part of that, because I like, because, yeah and and I mean, I think that's a little bit of, you know, what I guess I was curious about was that, like,
00:57:46
Speaker
You know, thinking about like the the placement of like in the order of operations of it's like, well, if the kid was in this scene instead of this other scene, and then like this, you know, like, I mean, that's the, sort that that's so fascinating that that, you know, changes.
00:58:05
Speaker
or like potentially changes people how they how they play like you know how they solve the puzzle or how they get stuck with it that that's very yeah i mean i think as players like we've all been in games where we've encountered scenarios like that where simply the arrangement of how you encounter characters atoms puzzles throws us off, or maybe he sends us down the wrong path along the way. But yeah, sort of getting to that, then developer brain of how to break that down and actually fix it, I think is oftentimes what I think about a lot less. I know I'm like, ah this is kind of frustrating, or boy, that should have been more obvious to me. But then sort of breaking down, it's like, well, what what do you do to correct that? I think it's fascinating. Yeah, I mean, I think the one of the biggest
00:58:56
Speaker
issues in adventure games is just lack of communication. um I feel like, you know, whenever I hear somebody, okay, here's a thing that ah I think people get wrong. When people say, this adventure game is hard, or adventure games are hard. No, adventure games aren't hard. They're just bad at communicating.
00:59:20
Speaker
Oh, that's a, that's a provocative statement. Tell us more. Well, because that's the thing, right? When you tell me what, what are the hardest adventure games you you can name? Right. Uh, let me, i mean I mean, for, for me, the, the, the toughest ones are all like the, the, the super, like maybe putting aside missed, which is, you know, that, that sort of type of puzzle is tough for me, but, um,
00:59:50
Speaker
Like something like that, a puzzle I could think of, and I'm actually stealing Jess's is ah like that Gabriel Knight three, one, uh, like where you're like that. Yeah. See, he's shaking his head. the surant rose yes up ah ro I've listened to your podcast. I know that that puzzle has ah a special place.
01:00:14
Speaker
I'm trying to think of what I would think of as like a really hard. How do you say Brown in French? Oh, I should. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. I should know. I think it's like six years of French. I think yeah I also had two years of French. Yeah, I think it's just Broun. Yeah. Let's say Broun is more likely male to Broun.
01:00:39
Speaker
and for all the Francophones out there. We apologize. Yeah, I'm i'm very sorry. If you run into James Jensen at MAGFEST now, it yeah's you know I think for me, maybe and maybe this gets to what ah what you're you're talking about. mean Some of the hardest adventure games are hard because they're bad. Maybe they're not bad because they're hard. Like I'm thinking about a game like Codename Iceman. Like that is a hard adventure game because it is just poorly done. It's not that I hate it because it's such a tough game.
01:01:17
Speaker
you know it's like because i haven't it's i've only played a little bit of code name iceman and i haven't watched the stream but my impression is that the reason code name iceman is so hard is because you don't know what you have to do half the time right right or you don't know why yeah you don't know the exact way to place in the parser what you have to do yeah well then on top of it you had to use this complex submarine simulator right you know a it's finicky and difficult to do just at a mechanical level but even then it's like
01:01:49
Speaker
you kind to have to intuit the goal that it wants you to be in pursuit. I mean, Breaking News Gang, Codename Iceman blows. But Kidname Iceboy though, there's a game. well No, I mean, Kidname Iceboy was my game of the year 2024. There's no question about that. I mean, I'm glad it came out in 2024, because now I at least have a chance with Rosemary's, you know.
01:02:14
Speaker
Otherwise, no context. But no, I mean, so tell us, I mean, yeah, working occasions, your your case here, right? Yeah. So I'm sure lots of people would agree that like the first Discworld game is hard. Oh, that's yes. Great example. Why is it hard? Because you don't know what you have to do half the time because the game doesn't tell you.
01:02:32
Speaker
I think, didn't you so use it as an example in a talk that you gave at one of the adventure acts? That's right. I've done my research. You didn't just walk into, this isn't, no, no, I did research. I watched videos.
01:02:48
Speaker
Ben's getting ready to grill your ass. Hit him, Ben. Get ready. I have met i have a list of complaints. all right this world Yeah, i used it I used it as actually the title of my talk. My talk was called That Does Work, making your player your adventure games more player-friendly. And the idea is that, you know, in this world, when you try and do something,
01:03:09
Speaker
the the message that you get like ten thousand times is that doesn't work yeah because with nothing further and a lot of adventure games do that and the problem there is that's why it's hard because you're you're thrown in the middle of the pool you're thrown in the deep end of the pool without knowing how to swim without anybody telling you how to swim or helping you and you die so so basically yeah i think that the reason that adventure games people associate difficult adventure games with being difficult is is that because they're just not good at communicating what you're supposed to be doing and as soon as you are better about doing that the more fun your game is and yeah okay it might be easy but there's still ways to make it challenging without making it
01:03:59
Speaker
just impossible how do you how do you feel about uh like in terms of like it seems like the Uh, the recent like kind of way of addressing it that I've seen like from some games, uh, and this includes, uh, locomotive, uh, but also like return for monkey Island and a couple other games I've played recently, you've had it like where they, they just straight up hand the player at task list. Yeah. I mean, that thing that's definitely one way of doing it. I mean, these are the puzzles you must do.
01:04:35
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, of of course, it also depends on how detailed you want to be. You know, you could have a checklist that literally says these are the puzzles you must do. You could, you could be a little bit more, you you could disguise it a little bit better depending, you know. But yeah, I mean, I, I'm all for that. You know, I'm i'm the type of person who likes making lists and checking things off of lists. That's just, that's just on a personal level. I just like doing that. So, you know, if a game does it, that's great. But yeah, I mean,
01:05:05
Speaker
Definitely, you know, and especially nowadays, you know, with so many games coming out, and people having short, these kids today with their short attention spans, we adam cannot be zoomers. Yeah, these days, not venture games wrong. Yeah, exactly. But no, but in all seriousness, like, it's a big ask to get somebody to one, play your game to finish your game. Three, if they put your game down, come back to your game.
01:05:35
Speaker
So anything to, you know, the days of being stuck on a puzzle for weeks and only being able to ask your friend at school to figure it out are long gone. Like, that's not a thing anymore. So, you know, whatever makes the player enjoy your game and have fun is is what I think you need to just strive for as a developer. Yeah, I just thought of ah ah hard another hard puzzle.
01:06:05
Speaker
It's a stupid monkey combat, but. Oh, well. Yeah. Yeah. See that's, that's interesting because that's that. I would say that puzzle is more tedious than anything else. Yeah. and i Like I realized even as I was saying, like that's just, you have to kind of grind. Yeah. It's frustrating, but not hard for, so I mean, yeah. Once you figure out that it's like just rock paper scissors and you have like the chart, it's whatever the thing, the thing that's interesting about monkey combat.
01:06:36
Speaker
is that it takes an idea from the first two Monkey Island games that I think is a good idea, which is using it as a like a callback in the final puzzle. Because like in Monkey Island 1, I guess not so much in Monkey Island 1. It's more Monkey Island 2. But in Monkey Island 2, obviously, like the first act, you have to make the voodoo doll. And then at the end, when LeChuck's just chasing you around, you're like, oh my god, what do I do? What do I do? And then you have that moment of, oh,
01:07:07
Speaker
I have the stuff to make another voodoo doll. ah That is very clever. And that's a clever thing. Monkey combats doing the same thing. It's just not as well telegraphed. Because the solution to the final puzzle and in Escape from Monkey Island is Aussie mandrel is on top of the giant Lechuck statue. And you have to purposefully make him go into a draw. Because when you do a draw in monkey combat, the monkey like hits his head.
01:07:33
Speaker
So you have to squash Aussie mandrel by doing that. And I remember the first time I played that, I didn't, like I didn't put two and two together. I couldn't understand why. Because when you're playing monkey combat, you're trying to win, right? Like there's no incentive to do a draw. You would only do a draw possibly by accident. So to then have to purposefully do a draw to win, it's just not well telegraphed. And that's why it's probably hard.
01:08:06
Speaker
So yeah, it all comes down to communication. I never connected that in Escape to Monkey Island 2. That's very interesting. Yeah.
01:08:18
Speaker
i Boy, Monkey Island 2 is so much better this game. Now that I think... Now that I'm thinking about it, you know, it really is. And yet, it's still not... I still don't think it's the best Monkey Island game. No, absolutely not. It is i think we're in the third best. oh yeah yeah right Third? What? Yeah. How many are there now? Six? I don't know. Yeah, there's the tails return and then ah the four.
01:08:45
Speaker
Okay. On three, everyone say the best. One, two, three. curses I'm a secret then curse, but I could be convinced. okay now curse then secret like I could be convinced.
01:09:01
Speaker
i yeah and Anyway, but yeah well, i this is this is interesting. Do you have any any favorite puzzles in in the the vein that you were talking about? Like something that like, what you know, that that kind of sticks because it's really interest. Like, again,
01:09:20
Speaker
I don't know if I ever viewed that like in Monkey Island too. It's like, like, I i know that is what happens. It's like, Oh, you learn to do this and then do it again. I do. I do like a puzzle. Yes. Where you, where you like, it's something obviously the aha moment, but that specific instance of that in a, in a game where it's like, you're, you've done something already. And then you realize that you're, you already have that information. You just have to apply it in a new way.
01:09:48
Speaker
That is a great puzzle. And I'm going to say something really controversial here. Because because I was always good. No, I experienced this exact thing where I had been playing this game. And at the very end, I was like, Oh, I know exactly what I have to do because I have all the information. And I was like, All right, I i have everything I need. I think I know what to do. i I think I have a hunch that this might be it. And I did it and it was correct. And I felt like a genius.
01:10:21
Speaker
It was the Fire Marvel puzzle at Riven. I see. its is This is a story that's very controversial to some people. Which I only ever played for the first time last year. I played both Myst and Riven. I played the originals. Oh, the original. I played the originals, and then I watched my my partner play the remaster of Riven, because she is a huge she she interviewed Rand Miller at the fan fair, which was great.
01:10:46
Speaker
um Yeah, so I got to tell him that that I love the Fire Marvel puzzle. And I was like, people give you flack for that puzzle. But I think it's genius. And he was like, oh, thank you. So, yes, the Fire Marvel and puzzle in the original ribbon is a fantastic puzzle. And I will fight anyone who tells me other otherwise. I think that's a really I think that's really cool thinking about like,
01:11:10
Speaker
adventure games that teach you how to play them. Like by the, by the end of the game, they've taught you something about the the game itself. So you have to start thinking within the rules of the universe as taught to you by the game, as opposed to just using what you came outside with.
01:11:32
Speaker
Yeah, and and to to expand a little bit more on that, like, I know that Mist and Riven kind of get flack because, oh, they're not really adventure games. i I think they get a lot more flack than they deserve. They're great games. um And this is this is coming from someone who has only, like I said, only just played them for the first time last year. The thing so you owe both of them last year, both of them last year, one right after the other.
01:11:56
Speaker
Yeah, I had I had some time to kill and I played but I was like, I'm finally might as well play these. So I did. Um, I thought mist was great. I didn't need to use any hints. I thought it was, you know, I'm not a mechanically minded person. I thought it was, you know, pretty intuitive. Riven was a little bit tougher, but it was more, I felt it was more rewarding. But the thing with Riven was.
01:12:21
Speaker
It's, it's the reason that I liked it so much is because like I said, you're going around, you're getting all these different pieces of information, you're solving the puzzles. And then it teaches you pattern recognition. So you get to a thing and you're like, wait, I've seen that somewhere before. Where have I seen that before? And then you go back and you realize where you've seen the other thing before. And then you realize the new context. You're like, Oh, I've seen this before because this is this thing. So the Fire Marble Puzzle is like everything coming together because you're like, wait, this looks like that. Could that possibly be? Oh, wait, yes, it is. Wait. And then you get that rush of excitement. And you're like, but then but then this must be this. And then this is this. So then you're like, oh, so I know all these things. Now I just have to figure out how to put them all together. And then when you do and you get it right, that's when you get that moment of like, wow,
01:13:14
Speaker
this is i'm a genius wow yeah well one i'm a genius and two whoever designed this is insane because i could never think of a puzzle like this yeah i love feeling like i love that feeling sorry go ahead oh yeah so it's not written yeah i'm thinking of like the babble fish puzzle from hitchhiker's god of the galaxy which i've I've talked about it also, I mean, and again, and notoriously difficult puzzle in a lot of ways, and and one that people sometimes sort of throw out there as one of the hardest of all time. But, you know, I think in playing it, there are definitely frustrating aspects of it. I mean, it's going to be a save and reload sort of experience, but the game does do at least a good job of, you know, again, if we come back to communication, it signposts pretty clearly at every stage.
01:14:02
Speaker
what the current problem with getting this fish to go into your ear canal is. And, you know, at each fail state, Theoretically, you learn what needs to be done in your next attempt at this to get past that problem only to have the next problem revealed to you. It's like, oh, it fell on the floor and got swept up. Well, I want you to deal with that little sweeper robot. What's the next problem I'm going to have to take out. But again, as much as it may require, because there's a limited number of moves before it's game over, et cetera.
01:14:37
Speaker
As much as it may be frustrating in that regard, it does give you the information along the way it takes, it communicates and allows you to
Indie Game Development and Marketing Challenges
01:14:45
Speaker
get through. I think that in some ways, as difficult as it is, it's it's maybe more fair than people give it credit for.
01:14:54
Speaker
um So can i can i take can I ask a question? Sure. Yes. Well, I want to turn this around because, you know, you, you asked me what I thought people got wrong. What are things? I'm curious to know what specific things you think. So in the gold, you possibly think it might be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to do a lightning round of well, actually. Yeah. Uh, doors are super easy to animate. Yes.
01:15:28
Speaker
They are. I, I, I did, I, I, I did appreciate those in the demo. So, all right. So the question is, what do you, or what do you, what do, wait do we which that developers new is that know or the question is what do we what do you, you asked me, what do I wish that you knew? All right. Right. Let me get a chart. like the ah Yeah.
01:15:56
Speaker
you You asked me to say, you know, like, you what is it that you know or have wrong that I wish you knew? So I want to know what it is specifically that you think you might not know that I can tell you whether you are correct or not, I guess.
01:16:18
Speaker
I'll pass that to you, Jess. Well, nothing and thank you. One of my favorite things to do is talk, which is why I have this podcast that I'm hosting right now, Quest Quest, the adventure game podcast. So as I continue to talk, of course, the idea is that I'm about to express verbally or for me in my head. So by the time I reach the end of this statement, surely I will have a response to Francisco's question, which could be a response that takes a number of forms. It could be.
01:16:47
Speaker
a question posed back to Ben, like Ben, what were you thinking? Well, that was masterful. I'm impressed.
01:17:00
Speaker
Oh, man. I don't know if your question is the answer. no I think that's it. I mean, I think for me, you know, ah One of the things that I think I have no sense of, I mean, again, I've dabbled in a little bit of development, but what I know about myself is I am only capable of pastiche. And I'm curious, either know you know, you've always... It's fine. that's Yeah, mean exactly. But I don't think I have original ideas kicking around in my head. And I think you've done a good job of expressing sort of like this
01:17:35
Speaker
Tension between on the one hand is a ah fairly old genre within video games but one that you don't want to be completely bound by mystia nostalgia with. I think something I know almost nothing about though having put together a few tiny free games that I've thrown out there is I'm curious as an indie developer here in 2025, like, what are the challenges on, I hate to call it the business end of things, but I mean, you've got to figure out how to get this stuff on storefronts. You've got to get the word out there about these sorts of games. You've got to get people hyped to play them. And I'm guessing, I don't know this, I'm guessing you don't have millions of dollars of promotional budget on most of these projects or anything. So, I mean, it's less maybe a minute. Rosewater does have ray tracing.
01:18:19
Speaker
I mean, and I do, yeah, and I think, I mean, you know, listeners can't see this, but Francisco is wearing a tuxedo and a top hat right now. So I mean, he seems very fancy. So maybe the budgets are there. But, you know, and what don't we know about that side of the business because that that's mystifying to me.
01:18:40
Speaker
Okay. Well, that's actually a very good question because I have. I did it. You did. After 50 minutes, we got it. Well done. Well done. I think that there is a there is I think probably the biggest mystery in the indie adventure uh development sphere is how the heck do these games actually do can you actually do this for a living right and i think the the answer is i don't know um there's a lot of
01:19:18
Speaker
There's a lot of things that change constantly, so there is no one right answer, right? So like for me personally, every game I've done has been with a publisher. I've never self-published a game. And the reason I've never done that, I've never done a Kickstarter either, is because one, Kickstarters terrify me because they're a full-time job in and of it themselves. I don't think I would be able to handle being able to do that. You need to meet so many lovely people though.
01:19:45
Speaker
yeah
01:19:48
Speaker
There are some kickstarters that have very nice backers.
01:19:56
Speaker
And there are some that don't. Hold for editing. And we're back, no. ah So, yeah, I mean...
01:20:10
Speaker
So, uh, yeah, so I don't want to do a Kickstarter because, you know, I'm, it's a full time job running that. And also I have this, this fear that like, I will hit the audience limit and people who back my game will be the only people who are interested in it. And therefore I won't make any profit, which I don't know.
01:20:29
Speaker
is Also, you promised me that I would receive my rosewater sheriff's star. I pledge to you $100 and you said that I should receive it and I paid extra for posting. Where's my rosewater sheriff's star? There's also that. um Where can I direct my death threats about my rosewater sheriff's star? yeah Can you just let me know please?
01:20:53
Speaker
which also ties into the whole, you know, running it is a full time job thing. Anyway, I've i've also never self published because I felt like I don't have the reach to be able to do that. um So I just ride the coattails of the publishers I've worked with. But yeah, I mean, I don't have millions of dollars to market. I don't even have Thousands of dollars to market so basically it's all word of mouth grassroots you know and you know i'm very lucky that i've been doing this a long time and like i said earlier you know it's very different.
01:21:27
Speaker
When you're asking somebody to pay for a game versus downloading it for free. Like I look back on the AGS forums and some of the Ben Jordan games have like hundreds of thousands of downloads. I don't have hundreds of thousands of sales on my games. I wish I did, but it's not, it's very different. It's, it's, it's a big ask.
01:21:46
Speaker
So, you know, you have to do the, you have to do the social media. There was a time, you know, when you could go on social media and you could post on there and people would actually you get some engagement and your posts wouldn't be buried by algorithms. But alas, those times have changed again. So, you know, it's always a constant, it's always a constant thing. And I'll be 100% honest with you, like,
01:22:08
Speaker
I've been very lucky that every game I've done has done better than the previous one, but I still worry. I still legitimately worry that a a game will come out. Like I'm worried that Rosewater will come out and like 500 people will buy it and that's it, you know, and that'll be it. And I'll have spent the last six years working on it for essentially nothing, you know. um And I mean, like you said, you know, you use the word business, it is a business, like, it's my livelihood. It's how I, I don't want this to sound like I'm, you know, getting on my knees and offering out my cap now, you know, please. But like,
01:22:46
Speaker
At the end of the day, it is I love doing it, and I i'm very i feel very lucky that I can do it, and it's a dream job. But at the end of the day, it's it's my main source of income, so you know I have to make it sustainable. I know I'm not going to be like a millionaire. I'm not going to be wearing a tuxedo and a top hat and driving a Ferrari. But you know it would be nice to be able to you know pay rent for a year and not have to worry about where my next meal is coming from.
01:23:15
Speaker
But I think, yeah, I think there is ah there is a big um misunderstanding of ah of how this all works as a business. Because I mean, obviously, you know some people are transparent about it. um I've seen maybe ah I can count on one hand the number of of like publishers who have given out numbers and stuff. And understandably, because you know people don't want to give their specific numbers.
01:23:40
Speaker
um But I feel like sometimes I've seen examples of people who who think that certain games did way better than they actually did. And the opposite people who think that games that did well, didn't do so well, because, you know, they'll go on like steam DB or something. And they'll be like, well, I did this complex equation where this by a number of this tells me that they must have this number of sales and obviously they did. So.
01:24:08
Speaker
Yeah, i don't know I don't know what the solution to that is. I don't know if you know everyone coming out and saying, yes, well, actually, these are the numbers I did actually would help.
01:24:18
Speaker
whatever. But yeah, I mean, but to to stop rambling, you you can do this for a living. It's very hard. um If you're going to start doing it for like now, I don't know what to tell you because it's a very different market to when I started. um I've been able to build up an audience little by little as I've gone along. So you know, that's a very specific case scenario.
01:24:48
Speaker
Sometimes first time developers get super lucky with their first game and do really well. Sometimes they fade into obscurity. It's a, it's a crap shoot, you know, not to, not to, uh, reference our friend.
01:25:03
Speaker
But all right. Well, you've convinced me I'm going to be an adventure game developer. No, don't do it. I actually want to send them to my it was tapping seriously I hear I quit my job. hey wait wait wait I will be I will be 100% transparent with you. And I will tell you this, when I moved to New York City, my intent was to maybe make adventure games. But I still at the time I was I was an interpreter, I was a legal interpreter. And I was going to continue doing that, but I couldn't find any good jobs in New York that I wanted. So I said, all right, I'll do adventure games. The only reason I did that was because I had $60,000 in my bank account. And I thought, okay, I can live off of this for at least a year. And I did. I blew through that, like in a year, but it was there. And that's the only reason I did that. So
01:25:53
Speaker
just to give you If you don't have, if you don't have at least a cushion to not die for at least a year, you know, don't quit your job to make an adventure
Financial Advice for Aspiring Game Developers
01:26:04
Speaker
game. So like a year's salary, like, basically, like, in the your pocket. Yeah. And because i'll I'll also, you know, because New York rent is so infamous for being so reasonable. oh Yeah.
01:26:16
Speaker
because I didn't have a job at the time I had to pay my full year's rent up front in advance at once. So that 60,000 quickly went down to like 47,000. So yeah, so anyway, yeah, but as I said, I've been I've been very lucky and I've been able to do this for everything. So yeah, anyway, you're here first kids don't follow your dreams. Well,
01:26:43
Speaker
Follow your dreams as long as you don't starve doing so. yeah I mean, if there was someone out there right now, because I mean, sure I have a feeling any diehard fan of this genre in the back of their head at some point is imagined what it would be like to design their own adventure game. I think that's just part and parcel of those of us who played these things when you're younger and never forgot about them. I mean, what advice would you give
01:27:15
Speaker
that person who's out there thinking, you know, I want to design my first adventure game. If you give them one piece of advice, what would it be? Do it, but do it as a game jam. Um, you know, there's plenty of like adventure themed jams throughout the year. You get a taste for it. Like do it as a very small scale thing. And if you still feel like that's really something you want to do and you want to try taking a crack at it, doing it commercially.
01:27:41
Speaker
then yeah but don't just jump all in. I mean the other thing too that I want to mention for my specific case is the fact that I basically do everything so my overhead is very low. You know my budget that's another thing too. I think people don't know what your average indie adventure game budget is. You know I've never spent more than $60,000 total on a game, and that's like high end. Like Rosewater, I think the budget's somewhere along the lines of like $50,000, but that's because we're only paying for music and voice acting. You know, I'm not paying a team of artists. I'm not paying a programmer. I'm doing it all myself for free until the game comes out and I get my royalties then.
01:28:25
Speaker
It's a you're so kind of a tight-fisted boss. I am. She gave yourself more budget to work with. Yeah, I just pluck it out of the air. no So, yeah, so, you know, if you if people who like, you know, they're like, oh, yeah, I'm going to make this adventure game and I'm going to hire the team of the best artists. that Yeah, you got to pay them. You you can only You know, you you can't expect people to work for free. You know, so so my secret to success has been put very little money in while still being able to make a quality project. And that way it'll make its money back faster and then hopefully turn a profit faster. So I also have this really terrible metaphor that I've been workshopping. We love a terrible metaphor here at Quest Quest, the adventure game podcast.
01:29:18
Speaker
Well, my metaphor is you have a river and you're trying to get from one side to the other and you don't have a, this isn't the sheep wolf puzzle. Trust me. It's basically you're placing stones, a bridge across the river. Each game is a stone, right? And each stone you place is going to get you closer to the other side. So, but the previous stones, this is why it's a bad metaphor because it's like, well, what about the previous stones? What's on the other side of the river? Is it death? Is it retirement? But someone told me to a better thing is you're a beaver making a dam.
01:29:53
Speaker
and each game is another log in your dam to strengthen your catalog so that at the end, you look back and you're like, I built that. So I guess the the point I'm making is build up a catalog because then more people, when you people buy your new game, they'll go back and play your old games and that's how you make it sustainable. right Thanks for coming
Reflecting on Game Development and Upcoming Releases
01:30:15
Speaker
to TED Talk, kids.
01:30:17
Speaker
and That's something I've been thinking about is like, yeah, like, as you kind of grow it out, like, yeah, like rose rose water, ah they mentioned it, at least in the demo, it it mentions lamplight city a couple times, right, right at the start. And so it's like, you know, I play it, and I like it, then I'll be like, well, I want to know what the city's like.
01:30:41
Speaker
that I want to know i about Shardlight. Yeah, exactly. yeah yeah yeah That's the hope. Anyway, cool. All right. Well, Jesse, do you have anything else? Or do you think we're we're all wrapped up on this count?
01:30:56
Speaker
I feel like we have learned a lot. I feel like this has been a real pleasure. i think that Too much, perhaps, some might say. no i mean i mean Yeah, I had too much time. I'm done. yeah but Ben just left. I can't believe this. I don't even know who will turn off the recording at this point. But no, this is fantastic. I want to thank you for joining us. I think the most important thing we could do right now is you plug everything. Oh, boy. All right. All right.
01:31:27
Speaker
Please wishlist my new game, Rosewater. It's a Western adventure coming March 27th, 2025. If you like that, you can also check out my other games, Lamplight City, Shardlight, and A Golden Wake. They're all available on Steam and on GOG. If you want to follow me on social media, I'm on Blue Sky as Grundislav Games. I'm also on Twitter if you still are on that. I do a weekly live stream of development called Wild West Wednesday every Wednesday at 1pm Eastern on twitch dot.tv slash Grundislav.
01:31:57
Speaker
And if you want to check out just my website and whatever, it's Grundislav dot.games. And I think that's
Closing Remarks and Future Episodes
01:32:03
Speaker
everything. great That's fantastic. Well, yeah, once again, thank you so much for joining us. And and thank you to you, the listener, the one that has this in your ears right now. Thank you. Thank you. If you'd like to ah send us an email with ah any questions or any suggestions as to who our seventh guest should be. Probably that the the line producer fella. Sounds like he he might have some good stories. ah But ah you can send us an email at quest quest podcast at gmail that.com rate and review. That's what everybody says. But they sit they say it for a reason. So think about that. to Ponder it. ah And join me in that. Yeah.
01:32:47
Speaker
And join us next week when we're talking about the best foods to eat when you're playing an adventure game. See you then.