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Episode 193: Who Put Lord of the Rings into Our Magic?
509 Plays1 year ago
Hello Podwalkers welcome back to the show. And can you believe it?? For the first time in 2 months the full contingent of the Gobbos were present. Today we look at the Universe Beyond Sets with a particular focus on Lord of the Rings. And while this episode could go ever on we decided to only go there and back again...
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Transcript
Reunion and Gratitude
00:00:29
Speaker
Hello Podwalkers and welcome back to the first time that the hosts are getting together in two months. Yes, we have not actually done an episode together since the Trevor Project episode, which was our lead in to Magic Con Minneapolis at the very beginning of May. So it's been a long time. I recorded a solo episode of people didn't get a chance to hear recently kind of talking about
00:00:55
Speaker
a lot of really what had been going on from my end and especially with just more recently. And yeah, so we are back. We have a new episode for you all. Before we get started, we want to thank the Grinding Coffee Company. I have been listening and Alex and Taya have done an amazing job of making sure that we were shouting them out.
00:01:14
Speaker
because the Guiding Coffee Company is just, they're fantastic. They're just so willing to always jump in and donate for any of our events. And it's considering that at least one third of this cast basically runs on caffeine. That is a necessary requirement. So yeah.
Exploring Universes Beyond
00:01:30
Speaker
Today we're going to be talking universes beyond we're gonna be talking Lord of the Rings in particular even though we're kind of at the point now where just even discussing what universes beyond kind of is and You know what what what some of the trepidations were around them and where we're going from here We're gonna focus that conversation. I think a little bit more on Lord of the Rings But we may just talk about the the whole concept
00:01:54
Speaker
And with that, we have an opening question. So my name is Hobbs Q. I go by pronouns he, him, and our opening question, which I'm going to be the last to answer because I did not think of anything as we sat here, uh, is what, what, what would you like to have for a universe is beyond? So I guess what, what IP or what world would you want for a universe is beyond. So I'll throw it over to Taya first.
00:02:19
Speaker
Hi, I'm Taya. Taya transcends on Twitter or Blue Sky, although I'm not really posting much on Blue Sky yet. She here, are they them pronouns? And my answer to this is I'd like the Miyazaki universe.
00:02:37
Speaker
So you can pull from any of the various movies and make a magic set of that for me, please. And that would have the absolute greatest food tokens the game has. Yeah, we've got hobbits like food. We can even have cursed food from the Spirit of the Way.
00:03:04
Speaker
Oh, yeah. All right. Well, I guess I'll jump in. Um, I'm Alex bound on Delta, my phone on Twitter at Mel underscore chronicler. My pronouns are he, him, and I guess the answer I'll go for this, which is it's the low hanging fruit for me, but that's fine. Is, is just a massive fact. It's my favorite.
00:03:21
Speaker
franchise thing. The trilogy are definitely my favorite video games and I've been itching to get back into the game. It's been over a year since I've played through the original trilogy so I've been thinking about it lately. So it was the first thing to hand and at first I was like,
00:03:38
Speaker
well, you know, sci-fi doesn't really meld with magic as well. And then I remembered they did Warhammer 40K, so all bets are off for things like this. It's like, eh, maybe I can dare hope to see some Mass Effect Magic cards. I think one of the weird wrinkles for that, which could be interesting, is what to do with the actual character Shepard, who is the main character of the trilogy, because they're such a blank slate.
00:04:02
Speaker
for the players to build their story. But I don't know, maybe they just go five color like Tom Bombadil, or maybe they don't put them in the set. And I think either way, whether the characters there or not, better be in the set. Oh, yes, that's that's fair. I, I would be disappointed not to see them show, but I would be entertained, I think, to see no sharper to then see how people react. But that may or may not make a better set.
00:04:28
Speaker
Okay, so I'm sitting here going through a couple of different options. And what's funny, Alex, is you kind of mentioned the sci fi and my brain actually just jumped to Star Wars because I mean, I think that that's that's that still is probably one of my favorite universes. And there is a lot of options there to draw fun and actually almost too much. But let me think we saw this with Lord of the Rings, even though we're only talking three books,
00:04:54
Speaker
It's still a pretty rich world and they didn't even bring in stuff from the similar alien or the unfinished tales or some of Tolkien's other works. So like Star Wars is so massive and big that I'm actually going to go because and this is so I'm going to go with Stephen King.
00:05:13
Speaker
But I'm going to go even more narrow and go with the Dark Tower series, which is kind of... I think that that's what you were going to say when you said more narrow. Cool. That's pretty. Yeah. So that's good. So like it's it actually has Stephen King in it, too. If you've ever read the whole like series, it actually kind of wraps around to encompassing a lot of his world and it references some of his other works. But it would also finally get us the like a testing ground in some ways for the Wild West type set that we haven't had.
00:05:44
Speaker
So along with like a little bit of a tie-in of a sci-fi potential because I mean that's it kind of is going between like it goes between multiversal worlds like Yeah Doors and portals. Yeah, I don't know but I really like that I dark tower series and I like Stephen King in general It's just once again, that could be way too wide. I mean you could do a hole in a Strad like playing but yeah, I
00:06:07
Speaker
that's cool yeah i and i realized like you said star trek or sorry star wars i'm thinking one of the other things that i i think would be fun about mass effect or any science fiction thing is frankly i'd love to see some more of the on
00:06:22
Speaker
Oh my goodness. Like the basic lands? The recent unset that had all the space lands. Both the shocks and the basics. So it would be fun. Honestly, any universe is beyond. It would be interesting to see what they do with lands. I love basic lands.
00:06:38
Speaker
I love the lands and in the Lord of the Rings set. So I'm interested to see kind of what they do. There's only one thing lacking about the Lord of the Rings set new lands will to actually the let's just start it off then. Yeah, because we're on the talking about this.
00:06:54
Speaker
I guess we should talk about what Universe of Beyond are.
Controversies and Connections
00:06:57
Speaker
I guess, theoretically, there's a way that people do not know. Universe of Beyond is using other properties and bringing them into Magic the Gathering. Now, they are sets that don't fit into Magic the Gathering lore. So yes, it is kind of this funny, weird thing that you can now, especially in EDH, have some really strange flavor, but they don't fit into the wider continuity of Magic's story that we have to worry about bringing in.
00:07:25
Speaker
Yeah, and the most recent example, the biggest example, kind of is Lord of the Rings. I guess the D&D sets are technically, they're not technically Universes Beyond, but they fit into a similar category where it's a full set of cards that are part of a different IP. But they did a few other things that are, again, kind of like this. I think there's a specific line called Universes Beyond, but then they also had a few secret layers.
00:07:53
Speaker
like the Walking Dead one, I think the Street Fighter one is actually Universes Beyond. And so it started with the Walking Dead one was their first release of this completely external IP. That was controversial when that happened. Yes, that's right. And so it's a couple of reasons too, if we want to start with kind of what it was, you know, the thing about this with them being
00:08:21
Speaker
non-canon, non-lore based is they theoretically then reprints is where the issue kind of came up. Yeah, they were making a mechanically unique card. Yes. That there would not at the time, you know, would not be an in magic themed skin reprinting of.
00:08:43
Speaker
Yes, and the secret layers have their own thing because those are limited availability product that you'd have mechanically unique carbs that you can only order for those 30 days, 60 days, and then you have to get them on the secondary market. That's it. Whereas like a booster product is on the market for is in print for some amount of time and they make a lot more of it. It's a lot more available for years as a window as opposed to a month or two.
00:09:14
Speaker
And so, yeah, there's that. And then also wrapped in the fact that that was the first one. You have a lot of concern, I think, some less, just about how the IP is going to fit and about the fact that magic is introducing cards that aren't in Magic's universe, because as a card game, there's a lot of story and a lot of lore and magic that go almost all the way back to the beginning. That was a thing fairly early, and we talk a lot about that on this cast.
00:09:44
Speaker
But then we're now for the very first time starting to pull in other IPs and there wasn't as much trust in Wizards at the time. I think that's been a thing for the last number of years and so there's some concern about them just sort of
00:10:06
Speaker
pumping in a bunch of cards from different IPs that may or may not affect the game itself just for a cash grab sort of thing. So I know that was part of the conversation too.
00:10:19
Speaker
Right, if you think they're saying it's to bring in other audiences, to bring in these new things, and I will say, up until the... I think it's interesting we're talking about the Lord of the Rings, because I'll be honest, it was a lot easier for me to say this just isn't for me, which is fine. But that's something that's harder for me to say with some of the other stuff that is actually within the magic universe.
00:10:42
Speaker
know, I might need to pay attention to a few cards from some of these things. But you know, like, until we got to Lord of the Rings, I really didn't have like a deep connection to some a lot of these other IPs. Yeah, and I'll say at least for me, me personally, I was not concerned, but a little
00:11:00
Speaker
a little weirded out, like it weirded me out a little bit, if that makes sense. Whereas like this is magic kind of going in a different direction and I don't think it's necessarily wrong, but it is different and different always feels weird sometimes. Um, I think they, I still think magic has too high of a product cadence, but I'll say that this doesn't seem to have increased that cadence. So at least in that regard kind of takes the place of the core set this year, even though it's only a modern legal set.
00:11:29
Speaker
Um, it released in pretty much the same spot, the course that usually would have. Yeah. And like, and then not mentioned, I hadn't really thought about this, but as a modern, not standard legal, like we're not getting them modern matches. Oh, but we are getting commander masters this year, aren't we? Yes. Okay. That's right. So yeah. And then, so for me, I think that hasn't bore out as much and I'm, I'm, I'm much less bothered by this.
00:11:58
Speaker
I don't even say that I was really bothered by it, but it hasn't caused an issue for me, even if initially it caused me to kind of look at it a little bit. Frankly, I kind of like some of the Street Fighter ones. No, that was just a secret layer. It was a small little thing. I was like, that's just kind of neat to see these characters as like, as potential commanders. The Malthos designs were really good, too. And they've done that with like, the universes beyond the Warhammer 40K ones were
00:12:27
Speaker
So good from a, you know, a lore standpoint, you know, I'm not a big Warhammer 40k fan, but listening to people who are talk about how well they nailed the lore aspect on them with the flavor abilities and stuff. And it really just, you know, it told me a lot about the lore of something I don't know a lot of lore about. Yeah.
00:12:49
Speaker
Wow, there's so many directions to go with this because I think that is kind of a good point, Taya, that I was thinking of to begin with, is the lore is already established.
Lore Accuracy and Artistic Elements
00:13:00
Speaker
So what we're getting on the card in terms of lore in some ways is either art work that's nods, card names that are nods, flavor text, those sorts of things to already establish lore.
00:13:14
Speaker
So the Malthus place is the place, right? Like the mechanics.
00:13:21
Speaker
is where you're going to make a break. So many opportunities for real Mel hits in these cards because we know the story behind them. And the one thing you mentioned with the art, especially as I want to bring up the, these sets, this and the Warhammer set where we've gotten commander product and we've gotten all these new arts on this reprints. These sets are also just huge from the art standpoint where we get these different universe takes on the art, like the, uh,
00:13:51
Speaker
reprint for far seek for more hammer 40k with the scout bike and just someone else scouting for land is my favorite art for far seek and Well, I like that and magic without the 40k set
00:14:08
Speaker
I have the Grixxis one and the art on some of these reprints, the arcane denial, deep analysis with just being inside the
00:14:26
Speaker
they're going into the minds of Moria with like Gandalf quotes about like about that I mean it's just like the it's the the way that they can get some great new art like anger really being just yeah I'm sorry I'm just like looking through because there are a ton of reprints in this and even the gutter snipe is a goblin shaman that is in like Moria like it's really cool to like see how to take something like a gutter snipe but actually
00:14:54
Speaker
In some ways randomly does feel a little bit hard to pull out of world Because of you know, I really associate it with Ravnica so much. They did it like it looks cool to bring it into a Lord of the Rings Yeah, yeah, and I I'm in I mean before we got one crater maker what they did with that one Was so perfect. Yeah
00:15:20
Speaker
There's so many good ones. Sorry. I had a thought and then I lost my thought and I remember my thought. It was talking about, sorry, that's just how we go. It's interesting. It just hit me as we're talking about this, that when you said,
00:15:37
Speaker
This lore is already established. It just hit me. This is, in a lot of ways, in a weird way, sort of harkening back to the very, very first sets of magic, the first expansions of magic. Even the Alpha, Beta, Unlimited stuff a little bit, which was evoking less specific things, but more sort of tropey things. But Arabian Nights was specifically evoking
00:16:02
Speaker
real world mythology in the Arabian Nights. And they did a little bit more of that, you know, they had some real world quotes, you have, I still have a mind stone with a man, what's his name?
00:16:19
Speaker
This is the problem with me randomly thinking of things, and I remember half of it. They had real-world quotes for a long time in a lot of early stuff too, and so you have this flavor text now from this Warhammer world, or quotes from characters in the Lord of the Rings world.
00:16:37
Speaker
and has a very similar feeling to that. Here we go, I found it. It's René Descartes, who is a 15th, 16th century philosopher. And I really appreciate that the quote they have from him is not his most famous quote, which he's the guy, and I think I've even said this on the cast, but he's the guy who said, I think therefore I am, which is a quote you could easily have put on Mindstone, but instead they went with accept our own thoughts. There is nothing absolutely in our own power.
00:17:05
Speaker
But so it's interesting to have...
00:17:08
Speaker
this sort of repeat, almost, where we're going, we're having something like we did in the early days before they started to establish Lore for Magic. Because once they sort of figured that out, they're just like, and we're going to kind of not incorporate the Arabian Nights stuff. And we're going to mostly, and these antiquities was the second expansion. And so they sort of retroactively fit most of that into the storyline that they started to tell about Urza and stuff.
00:17:36
Speaker
moved forward with that. And we didn't get a lot of places like this that had reference to things that weren't magic within the cards. That's a weird tangent. But that's okay. So how we ended up here, even now that we're here is was the basic lands. So if people have, yeah, you were mentioning the basic lands, Alex, and now for like your property, that would be one of the things you'd want to do. It is true, they can do really cool things with the basics.
00:18:03
Speaker
and they did Tolkien-style map art for the ones from Lord of the Rings, which is some of my favorite art. Maybe that's art that I just grew up with, that style of mapping with the lettering and everything. However, the cards, unlike others in the set where they actually formed six and larger card panoramas,
00:18:27
Speaker
like battle scenes that take place across multiple cards. I think Tyler Jacobson's I don't remember, I think it's 12, maybe 16 cards, like they have these giant cards that actually stitch together. The lands do not. And they're all in the same color ink. So they're really hard from a like visual standpoint to differentiate across a table. Yeah, yeah. And that's a
00:18:55
Speaker
That's a little bit of a thing too, which I think was a bit of a concern when we start to have cards like, well really the Godzilla's where this started before Universe is Beyond, where we kind of have cards that are
00:19:08
Speaker
mechanically something else, but then represented as something within the property. Like I'm looking at like we have the dead marshes are mechanically airborne Tomb of Yawgmoth. But then again, recognizing cards across the table is a thing that maybe went out the window. That's out the window. Five or six versions of the same card in the same set. But with my lands, I would like to be able to at least not think everything is a forest across the table from me. Yeah, that's fair.
00:19:37
Speaker
So let's talk about what some highs and lows are for us all, with Lord of the Rings. Anybody have one they want to start with? I can start. It's real easy for me. The lands are one of the high things. There's a bunch of lands I'm going to be picking up. I was just going through and tinkering around with some of my decks, and I realized there's a few. My joined lands deck, one of the cards I have in there that I was
00:20:03
Speaker
Thinking I might never get a fun, fancy version of what's Deserted Temple, and we have Weathertop, like a full art Weathertop that is Deserted Temple in this set, and I will probably be looking for that for that set, for that deck. I mean, Minas Murgle as Cabal Covers is also just an incredible art.
00:20:22
Speaker
Yeah, like those box topper ones, I will say to even though the like the utility lands in this I think are really good. So like the great there's a big sub theme of legendary matters, which is one of the things I was going to bring up. I saw a post recently about just how many legendary creatures are in the set. It's something like it now represents
00:20:44
Speaker
one out of every 15 legendaries is from the set, I think was the number that somebody had referenced. So with that, though, there are a lot of lands that if you do like the legendary matters type things, there are, you know, like lands that come into play, tapped unless you control a legendary tap for multiple colors. If you have a legendary,
00:21:04
Speaker
One of the standouts from the set has been Delighted Halfling, which is a one mana that taps for like colorless or one mana of any color on a legendary spell and the spell can't be countered. You want your commander not to be countered.
00:21:25
Speaker
Yeah. An Atlanta war elf. An Atlanta war elf. And it's a one-two, so it can't be killed by one damaged fingers, like red and six. Or an orcish bow master coming in. Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:40
Speaker
It's wild! It's a one-two landmark elf that produces colorless and can't be countered. I mean, that's just... And like we said, Legendary Matters is becoming like a very common archetype in this set. Oh yeah, there's like five cards in this set I've got to somehow figure out how to put into my dihado deck. Yeah. But yeah, Alex, like the lands, I think there's a lot there.
00:22:08
Speaker
Yeah. Even just the ones in the set. The basics are beautiful. The monocolour cycle of legendary lands are great. I'm looking at Shire Terrace and like, does this go in my lands deck? Probably. It's cool. I really like the lands in this.
00:22:31
Speaker
That's something I'm looking to pick up. I don't know how much of this that I want to pick up because I mean, I'll be honest. I at this point am stubbornly trying not to understand how the ring tempts you mechanic works because I still don't. And I kind of would like to go through the rest of my life not knowing, I think. Maybe that's fine. That's where it's attractions outside of that, like the lands at least, I think look really good. And I want to get some of them. So my first part.
00:23:00
Speaker
that I want to discuss. And this is one of those Malthus winds that I really wanted. It was Arwen, mortal queen. Yes. Entering with an indestructible counter that you can then remove to put a bunch of buff counters on her and another creature. Yep, that is. And not to mention that this art by Miranda Meeks is just
00:23:29
Speaker
amazing art too yep yeah this is a meltos one that i really enjoyed um another one for me for the meltos side and this is my this this actually it probably is my favorite card in the set is tom bombadil um yeah i mean that was just that was a perfect one i
00:23:49
Speaker
really wanted to make that deck, but I knew about five other people who are making that deck. So that's the thing. It definitely is a five color. It at least it's a five color linear, right? Like it leads itself to a certain kind of build, but it is at least a build and not just five color good stuff.
00:24:06
Speaker
Yeah. But this for me is because Tom Bombadil has not been represented in like any version that we've seen animated the original movies. I mean, he's been at the books that that was the thing. So like Tom Bombadil is something that is almost this weird. I mean, he is considered a legendary creature. God bard. Well, I mean, yeah, this is why he's hard to represent in a movie. Right. I mean, like Malthus. Yes.
00:24:34
Speaker
Well, and when you only have like, how long are the three movies combined, like 12 hours? That's not a lot of time to represent Tom Bombadil. No. You gotta make that somewhere. You do, you do. It is an easy cut, but it is from like the stories and then getting him his love of Golden Berry and they play so well together. She can be ticking down sagas and
00:25:02
Speaker
The tie together there of Tom Bombadil is almost like the holder of sagas when this set does also have a ton of sagas. I like this because it goes wider, but also they did include a lot of stories.
00:25:17
Speaker
that like are referenced in this in within Lord of the Rings. And so I, I love Tom Bombadil, the art on it, both versions of it are absolutely amazing. I do like kind of bring one, but the original art here, there's just the standard one from Dimitri Burmak. This is where I'm going to get into my first negative of the set. It is gorgeous art. There's a lot of gorgeous art in this set. However, the way that universes beyond works.
00:25:46
Speaker
Mm hmm. Yeah, I know what you're going to say here that flat out now, actually. And this didn't this wasn't true to start with, but they've actually even clamped down on this even more. The art is only allowed to be digital. Oh. Because the art is not allowed to be sold. Oh, artists proofs are not allowed to exist. Prints are not allowed to exist. Play mats can only be done directly through whatever ultra pro does on them.
00:26:16
Speaker
Oh my goodness. Yeah, that makes sense. The artists don't get any of the bonuses they normally get at all. No. Yeah. So they get paid at a higher...
00:26:28
Speaker
base rate for doing art for this set. But I'm not sure that it doesn't make up for as much as artist's proofs and stuff was. And now I don't know, I mean, I know for licensing being what licensing is.
00:26:47
Speaker
I understand that there's contracts and everything that are involved, but it is the thing that is the biggest downside to me of these sets. It also meant that we lost out on art by some people.
00:27:02
Speaker
most notably Donato, who is Giancola who has done a lot of Lord of the Rings art, does not work digitally. So he has done like full-on art exhibits related to Lord of the Rings art and Middle Earth and everything else, did not do anything for this set.
00:27:25
Speaker
And we actually didn't end up getting even getting the brothers Hildebrandt who both are huge within the Lord of the Rings art world. So there are things that were kind of a little bit of a bummer that are more to do with just contracts and to do with this is one of those limits of using other IPs.
00:27:44
Speaker
Yeah, this is the licensing. It's one of the biggest downsides is licensing is weird and it causes things like this, okay? Yes. I didn't realize any of that. That sucks. Yeah, yep, yep, yep. So when we get an amazing new goblin like Moria Marauder, Double Strike, whenever a goblin or ORCU control deals combat damage to a player, you get to exile the top card of your library, you may play it this turn. Well,
00:28:13
Speaker
can't make the goblin deck. So Tom Bombadil got us to bring in at least the art piece, which I wanted to make sure we did hit on. Yeah, that's a good one. And it's important to say both the downside there, but also just this art is gorgeous.
00:28:33
Speaker
but also we're an audio format and it's hard to spend a lot of time on that, so I'm glad we did get that too. No, no, really. If you could pull it up on your screen right now. Okay, we'll wait. Yeah, park your car if you're driving and then look at this stuff on your phone.
00:28:50
Speaker
Yeah, I think I want to, and maybe this is something that takes us a while, but I want to talk about a little bit. This is a thing that, Taya, even you talked about in an episode you and I recorded fairly recently, looking at the legends in this set, and a lot of them got multiple versions, multiple cards for the same person, and kind of talking about that a little bit from a Milthos color.
Character Representation and Synergy
00:29:16
Speaker
color pie stand point. I'm so glad you have this down. I'm so glad you have this down. The first thing that I want to talk about is Arwen and Aragorn to kind of piggyback off what you were saying earlier about Arwen, because I think that it's really interesting. Not even looking at, I know there's some other printings of them in the commander decks, but just in the booster set, you've got
00:29:38
Speaker
two printings of Aragorn, plus one of Strider, two printings of Arwen, and then the one of them together. And it's really interesting to see there's a bunch of elves who are green-blue, but then Arwen, mortal queen, who is representing her after she has wed Aragorn, is green-white, which matches his green-white
00:30:01
Speaker
in one of his cards when he's sort of leading the group, and the green-white of the two of them, the card of the two of them combined. So I love, from a miltoh standpoint, I love seeing that, and I'm sure we'd really dig into this mechanics, which I'm less interested in. We can see where all of these colors are coming from and why you're doing that a little bit, but I love that, because this is not a magic thing, and this is a point you brought up in that episode, because this is not a magic world,
00:30:32
Speaker
Wizards isn't super tied to, well, then if we add this color to Chandra, if we add this color to this character or that character, that sort of changes what we have to represent in the future or might change. It doesn't matter. This is the one set they're doing. This is not their IP. This is someone else's IP. So they're kind of going around it the other way. We're like, well, how do we want to represent them within our world?
00:30:56
Speaker
But I also love, because this is a topic we talked about a few months ago, six months ago, a year ago, time is weird, about characters who get reprinted with new colors. And in magic, that's sort of telling the story over time and everybody
00:31:14
Speaker
Nobody is one thing. And so you could be multiple colors depending on the day or what you're dealing with. There are certain things. Times at work where I probably have a different color pie thing depending on what problem or not problem is popping up that day. But it is interesting looking at these characters like Arwen
00:31:32
Speaker
as a green-blue elf, and then after wedding into becoming queen of a nation, particularly a nation like Gondor, whose main city is represented as the white land, Minas Tirith, she gains that white, kind of loses that blue, at least in this representation.
00:31:52
Speaker
And interesting, he basically goes between what where he is a strider and then which then going to the green white when he's kind of taken on the role of at least the the leader of the party of the you have you have him starting as green red as strider where he's sort of the the ranger who's kind of out by operating by himself. I wouldn't say for himself because he's still
00:32:20
Speaker
Within the story, he is absolutely the whole time. And depending on your talking book or movie, you know, in the movie, he's a little more unsure of whether he's taking the crown in the book, he knew he was doing it the whole time. It was just an eventuality. It was an eventuality. But still how he operated was as sort of a solo agent out in the field. And that fits much more with the red, but then he becomes part of the fellowship. And now he takes on that white that he then carries into his kingship. Well, except
00:32:49
Speaker
in between well yes in between that's the thing that's what's interesting right like so that's where I was thinking that was interesting is becomes the uniter when he actually basically leads everybody yeah when he leads leads the coalition coalition against the
00:33:10
Speaker
And so yeah, that Aragorn is red, green, white, blue, every color, you know, not black for color, not black for color, not black for the obviously reason of in this black is completely really is represented for, for villainy. So I will say, right? Like that's something that we talked about in here. Black within this is villainy in this world.
00:33:37
Speaker
And Aragorn picks up the blue. His red comes back in from the Strider. He's obviously the full uniter, so he has that. And then once he's able to return back. But it is like that interesting thing. But as you said, Alex, because we don't have to worry about this for future sets, it's not a like, well, he picked this up and then he lost it as he gets married and...
00:33:54
Speaker
Yeah, why and because it's supposed to tell him at different points in a story and the story is contained within one set or with one. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, and unless someone else wants to jump in to talk about air going there, I did have two other characters I want to talk about in this context and then I'm kind of good here. Should I jump on to those two?
00:34:16
Speaker
So I want to talk about Mary and Pippin, which I think is really interesting. They both start in just the booster set. I guess there is the ones from the commander set, which I'll say I haven't had a chance to look over as much. I really like their commander pairing.
00:34:35
Speaker
So that's why I was asking. Well, then I think, do you mind talking about kind of bringing that in and talking about that too after you talk? Yeah, go for it. Perfect. That's awesome. Thank you. So I love in the booster. So there's two of each of them. And the their first ones, and this is like sort of chronologically within and I also noticed this about our went to another looking at it.
00:34:56
Speaker
Their first sort of chronologically within the story are uncommons, and then their second card are printed as rares. And so for both, Peregrine took Maricotic Brandybook. They're both monogreen halflings. They're both doing stuff, making food. They're kind of being hobbits, and also those cards are representing their full names, Peregrine Maricotic.
00:35:22
Speaker
But then they both sort of through the story adopt another land as sort of a place where they feel they belong. And that's where Mary Esquire of Rohan comes in later and then Pippin, guard of the Citadel as a
00:35:38
Speaker
actually, maybe not an Esquire, but as a sworn soldier of Gondor, they both lose their green, pick up, in Mary's case, red and white, which matches the colors of Rohan. If you look at some of the other legends like Aomir. It went in Aowear, yeah.
00:35:56
Speaker
And then Pippin picks up blue-white, which fits a lot of the Gondorian nobles, and Imrehail, and there's a Faramir that's blue-white. And so I found that really cool from a Vorthos standpoint.
00:36:14
Speaker
NFL standpoint, even really, where they sort of pick up those colors. But yeah, how do, how do the ones for the commander decks work here? So what I liked about them, one, they have partner with each other, which is, you know, the point in the story where they were still inseparable before they go their separate ways anyways.
00:36:34
Speaker
And there's a shot of both of them at the same point of time when they're Warden of Isengard. That's their title for both of them in the Commander product. So right after the Sacking of Isengard. And their abilities also obviously being designed together as a Commander pair, their abilities trigger each other
00:37:00
Speaker
Pippin makes the food token, which triggers Mary's ability, which makes a Soldier token at the end of turn, Soldier token with lifelink. So one of them makes the food, the other one eats the food and makes a friend. I don't know why it makes a friend, but even in their art, you know,
00:37:24
Speaker
Pippin's got one slice of the pie and Mary has the rest of the pie with the slice missing. So the art pair was pretty interesting. They're both by the theme artist. I love it. Super cool. So yeah, I just, I thought they worked really well together and that it was kind of the same point in time. And, uh, interesting is this, yeah, this is one of the cases and I think this was just, uh, I
00:37:50
Speaker
I don't know why the Hobbit deck is Abzan and the Commander product, but I guess, you know, the legendary ambition of Hobbits, apparently, but Pippin is green, black, and it's an incarnation. So this is where, you know, the Commander product, I think, doesn't follow the story quite as much as the main set product did in a lot of ways. If it's more where they tried to
00:38:19
Speaker
fit the characters in with color identity of the product necessarily than the other way around. That's what it felt like, I would say. Yeah. It's interesting they both have green at this point. I can see that. But yeah, that's interesting to then capture them at that point. I love how those two are together. That is super cool how they mechanically
00:38:40
Speaker
help each other out, fuel each other's abilities. So Alex, before you move on to your other grouping, I just want to highlight that. Oh, okay, cool. I thought you had more. I thought you said, wow.
00:38:53
Speaker
ability to parse statements right now. I wanted to note too, because one thing that the commander decks allow for is partners. And the main set does not. Now, this has made for some kind of like weird, almost like these like go to already rule zeroed people. So things like, you know, Rosie Cotton of South Lane was with Sam.
00:39:18
Speaker
But once again, they have mechanics that play off of each other. They have mechanics that work well together. But more importantly, I think the biggest area that we really see this as being, in my opinion, a mess, or I think they needed to find a different way to do it, was to have a Gimli and Legolas counter of kills.
00:39:37
Speaker
So they they both like I literally have to sitting here right now that somebody had sent me because I want to Make my first ever quote-unquote real rule zero deck because it doesn't even make sense for them This is where they had an out that I don't know if it was So this is when we look at product of design that I'm now wondering Mm-hmm. So I'm thinking you know, they didn't want to use partner within the larger piece of the set I think they've tried to
00:40:05
Speaker
really limit how they're using partner, the commander decks, their partner with specific people. So maybe they just, they didn't want to do anything with partner within the main set. Okay. That's fine. However, we just got out of, you know, the, what was it from marching the machines that we, no, wait, no. Is that what the set was?
00:40:28
Speaker
Yeah, for this one. Yeah, I know. So we got Yeah, yeah. Was technically the last. Yes. Prior aftermath is when we actually got the mashup characters, right? Yes. So we had mashup characters and we see it with Arwen and Aragorn.
00:40:47
Speaker
but giving us two counters of kills who play well together. You know, it's like whenever a creature and opponent controls Dies, it gimli deals one damage and whenever a creature and opponent dies, put a plus one plus one on Legolas, right? Like you have these like symbiotic things if creatures are dying among two people who are counting kills. And one of my like favorite translations from book to movie, like that they're actually are counting out their kills in this very like weird way for like a book.
00:41:17
Speaker
But they don't get to be partners or have a mashed up card, which was to me, there was a few others. Like I said, the Salmon and Rosie, some way to have Goldberry and Tom Bombadil. But this one to me was the biggest one. That would be too broken to let them be rules of your own together. Oh, yeah. No, no. That's what I mean. Those two are more just from a story perspective.
00:41:41
Speaker
I would have liked a mash-up card. But maybe to have a set card. Because they did that with Aragorn and Arwen, but is that the only one that's two characters together? Yeah. They're the ones that kind of cross the threshold, I think. I mean, obviously they only had so much room in the set for this, and I think they decided to burn that slot on that particular pairing. Sure. That's fair. Making me feel a little bit bad for...
00:42:06
Speaker
No, I mean, it would be more. Gimli and Legolas right now, they deserve to be partners. Yeah. Yeah. They spent the rest of their lives... They spent the rest of their lives traveling around together just being pals. I mean... Just friends. Just friends. Yeah, absolutely. Just the best of friends. Yeah.
00:42:25
Speaker
So that was one that was a little bit of a like bummer because I loved the counter of kills idea. And the fact that I do, I do appreciate though that if they're going to do it, they did it with both of them having those as names. Yeah. Yeah. I do. I do think though, I mean, that is a rule zero deck. I would always allow that as an awesome idea for a rule zero deck. Yep. Yep. I'm sure there was a cool commander you can stick in there if some jerk actually says you can't.
00:42:51
Speaker
There's gotta be some alternate commander that fits in that color scheme. I was gonna say, whatever I choose is gonna be stronger. Yes, that's exactly what you need. I get to play Rug and It Not Be Too Uncommon, basically. The whole idea of characters at different points in time, I think, is fantastic.
00:43:19
Speaker
the really cool piece that they chose to do for this which they I mean I think I don't know the Warhammer 40k so you'll have to did they have planeswalkers in that no okay so they continue to decide to not do planeswalkers within this you know I know that we've we talked about they did for the D&D sets right that's right okay
00:43:42
Speaker
So they did it in D&D, but they basically came out and said, you know, Lord of the Rings doesn't have planeswalkers, basically. And so we're not going to do that. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense for D&D versus another.
00:43:58
Speaker
property. I mean, and thinking about, and I can't remember all the planes walkers in the D&D sets, but you've got things like Elminster, who's a really powerful wizard who probably did walk planes. And beyond that, it was like God level beings. Who else?
00:44:17
Speaker
Uh, yeah. Except I think that was like the, the like, what's, what's the, what's the rule of cool rule where people just like do a lot. That's it. That is cool. That's fine. Yeah. It's like, we didn't get like Gandalf, um, who really is reborn in a way that.
00:44:47
Speaker
could have been seen as a sparking type moment. Yeah, I think you're probably there's a handful. You probably Oh, why can't I get them off the white is strong enough. It didn't need to be a planeswalker. No, no, no. That is very true.
00:45:09
Speaker
I can't think of what they're called, but get the Wizards, the five Wizards, which I noticed we didn't get the two blue Wizards, but that makes sense. The Australian books. Yeah. They could probably have been playing soccer cards. Maybe a Tom Bombadil, though we don't know what Tom Bombadil is doing. I mean, we do have gods. I like the gods. Like him as a creature who's a god makes sense.
00:45:30
Speaker
Yeah, I think like I think the biggest case would have been made for Gandalf just with the rebirth more than anything. But then it doesn't make sense. And so I appreciate that they didn't do it. Like, I mean, yeah, yeah, I actually very much appreciate that they didn't. It is wild to basically see the gray be this like, is it
00:45:50
Speaker
kind of, you know, it's sorcery spellcaster go to then be the white. That was such, I mean, I understand Gandalf the white is white, but it was a really cool moment card wise to see that transition. Yeah, that's cool. And also, I think it's funny to juxtapose him a little bit to Saruman. Saruman the white is mono blue, which is funny to me, but fits like it actually does fit.
00:46:20
Speaker
I mean, it really actually does, because it tells the story of the fact that he is really not a white-aligned planeswalker, right? I mean, like, he's known. I mean, it's fantastic. Now, we could get into the debate of if an Esper ceremony of many colors reaches the criteria for many or not, I guess.
00:46:40
Speaker
I mean, yeah. It just rolls off the tongue better than Saruman of several colors. Yes, yeah. I mean, and technically from a name and title standpoint, he was still Saruman the White the whole time. But Saruman the White, who was kind of corrupted a little bit by communicating with Sauron too much and digging into ring lore, does not fit on a card name. Yeah.
00:47:10
Speaker
It's just an uncard with, you know, elemental or whatever it was that we made this card to have the longest name ever elemental. Yeah. Yeah. That's really, really funny. Sorry. Many colors three. Yeah. I mean, it's fair, but I think it's, I don't know. I don't know what else you would have called him.
00:47:34
Speaker
It's a, it's a decent name. Maybe there's a better name, but I think it's, it's fine. I do like the colors are to talk about color change, to go back to what I was saying before that I said I was done talking about. I do shift. Sorry. Well, no, I just spent the, the, the, the men, the ceremony of many colors does come from the book. Yeah. So I'm just saying you couldn't pick up like red, maybe, I don't know.
00:47:58
Speaker
That's fair. Yeah, maybe with the orcs, but I like that color identity for him. Obviously, the blue, when he was mono-blue, was all about the knowledge and the research. That was a big part of what he did at the time. But then, you know, black and white kind of fits for, I think, what he was doing. Just sort of a, I'm going to burn the world down to save it, and sort of thing. Which...
00:48:22
Speaker
I don't know, kind of fits the, I want to talk about who is it, the black and white king of the Oathbreakers.
00:48:32
Speaker
Yeah, well, yeah, there's Denethor too. I like King of the Oathbreakers. I like that black and white identity for the King of the Oathbreakers. And honestly, a little bit for Denethor too, because that fits a lot of the identity I've seen for Orzhov. It's a black and white, generally a black and white thing. Sort of the white is very much about the community, but then you had black and it's like, we're very much about our community and don't care about anyone else.
00:48:58
Speaker
And that really fits there. And so I kind of like that sort of pairing with the blue for Saruman to be his sort of transformation over time. I don't see the white.
00:49:10
Speaker
going back into it. In that case, it's white is about order. And yeah, it's it's not about it's not about in most for the most part, most of the white characters in this set are part of, you know, kingdoms and things and a lot of the good the forces, you know, trying to fight for good. But in this case, for Saruman, I think this is one of the cases where it's black, where it's bringing in sort of the
00:49:34
Speaker
the darker side if you were maybe not the right way to say but we see it with Lotho. Yeah, the sheriff. I mean, yeah, yeah, I guess to some degree, where it's like, that's the Oh, it makes sense to be from the side. Yeah. Yeah. Because white is the color of Gondor. That's true. And so even as he's sort of selfish, and, yeah, doing his own thing. I see it a lot clearer there than I do for
00:50:01
Speaker
Saruman. That's fine. And honestly, a blue-black Saruman wouldn't have bothered me either. Cool. I just think all this talk about Saruman's color identity, we're overlooking the best single line of text in this whole thing, which is the Balrog Duran's vein can't be blocked except by legendary creatures. Oh, that is beautiful.
00:50:31
Speaker
Man, the Balrog needed to, yeah. I wanted a more powerful Balrog. I did too. I was, yeah. And I wanted him to make a stand on if he had wings or not. But then they would have had to debate, does he have flying and still have wings or not? That would have been the part. Sorry. I'm getting deep now in the lore. Yeah.
00:50:56
Speaker
there's so much to talk about. Like, I feel like I could sit here for another couple of hours. I mean, we could go we could go almost card by card through this point. I'm reading the bell rock. And that also has a really good bit of text that when a legendary creature and opponent controls dies, put the ballrog flame of the bottom of its order slide. Like that's what's so
00:51:21
Speaker
bad about it. That's the one from the starter deck. The other one is a combo-tastic sack piece. I don't know if you've read the other one. The other one is one lads for each permanent sacrifice this turn. It's a seven five eight. And when it dies, destroy an artifact or creature and opponent controls.
00:51:49
Speaker
So you can get into sack loops and basically glow up opponent's boards with a- Cool. But yeah, I just, I love that. When a legendary creature dies, it goes to its, the bottom of it. That's the thing that Gandalf said, like at the, they just fell. It's pure flavor. It is pure flavor. Like that is the like epitome of that, right? Yeah. Like, nine Nazgul with different artwork, which is super cool. And you go- And you're all nine.
00:52:19
Speaker
the deck that you can have up to nine of. There's just as I know, they're like, they're expensive, too. They're uncommon. It depends on the variant. They're
00:52:31
Speaker
They're expensive on commons because you need all nine of them for your deck. Right? Cause how, why would you, if you ran two of the same art, I would call you out and tell you, sorry, this game is over. You just need nine of them to begin with. So, you know, getting nine to start with is on an uncommon. I opened a box. I got one. Yeah. Yeah. Um,
00:52:57
Speaker
Couple of cool, I like card names. I'm always a big fan of card names that are after lines. So You Cannot Pass, giving us the correct, which he says both versions of them in the movie, but this is kind of that nod to sticking more book-like, I think, than we are movie-like. But You Cannot Pass, like Fly You Fools is that, also have a card. So I like, I like ones like that. I'm a big sucker for cards like that.
00:53:25
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's too greedily too deep in the, uh, in the commander decks that just hasn't picked. It's a sorcery, but it has a picture of the bellrog and the now for wrath. Now for rune is a, you know, pre combat trick, but that's another just great card title. That is a beautiful title. Um,
00:53:46
Speaker
So one thing we have not- Is it of herbs and stooped rabbit? Isn't that a chapter title? Yep. Yeah. There's a lot. Mm hmm. Whenever. Yeah. So. I'm wondering, well, what I'm like, we haven't done one thing to talk about is.
Diversity and Future Prospects
00:54:04
Speaker
Who this set pissed off, a.k.a. the right people. Yeah. Yeah.
00:54:14
Speaker
I love the fact that it's like people who I don't know. So I just want to recognize that there were people that were very upset with the set because Aragorn is black. Oh, no, that's the main. Oh, no.
00:54:29
Speaker
That's the main one. There's other things that they could have chosen, but for some reason, that seems to be the one that was hit on, I guess. For shocking reasons, it makes sense to no one why that would be the thing out of any of the others. And I swore they weren't racist. They were just being true to the source material. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we'll ignore the true the source material about the fact that he couldn't grow a beard and the Aragorn that they're mainly referring to had a very nice beard for a very long time.
00:54:58
Speaker
But I mean, I do want to... It didn't bother them. It didn't. It's fine. That part's fine. It's a beard. It's a beard. It's not skin color. His skin color is obviously important to the story. But I do, I did appreciate, right? Like they wanted this to be Lord of the Rings for everybody. And I mean, we'll be honest, like Tolkien...
00:55:20
Speaker
Not the most diverse person. Let's say, you know, Wizards did not make this choice. This product was made in conjunction with Tolkien's estate. So it wasn't, you know, they, when you, when you make a product like this, you don't make changes without consulting with the company that owns the IP. So this was just Wizards being woke.
00:55:42
Speaker
And it's also a litigious company who like, does not let people like they are, they will come down on people when it comes to anything to do with the IP. I mean, they are known for that. It's like Disney levels of like the estate being very predictive, protective. So I am thankful to have a like a world of Lord of the Rings that is much more diverse. And you know, I know we are, we're already getting that with some of the Amazon
00:56:10
Speaker
TV show itself, but this was a very nice nod to have it throughout the car just there like it's just there it's on car The same people showed up for the Amazon TV show too when there's like oh, no, we can't have black elves. Yep Yep, and glad real is too powerful
00:56:26
Speaker
Yeah. Right. And like, that makes me really want to say you've never read the books. Right. Yeah, I know. Like, like you literally never read the whole thing. Yeah. You miss the whole point where she says she could become another Dark Lord herself. Right. Do you not understand? She actually was one of the few who actually came over to this from like Paradise, basically, like left it. She's one of the few beings that knows what that was. Like, yeah, sorry. Um,
00:56:56
Speaker
But yes, I mean, I just I am I am very happy overall with the set. It's the first that I bought a box of in a while that I've actually opened that I actually went through the cards and what was your box topper?
00:57:09
Speaker
Uh-huh. God, it was horrible. What's the worst box topper? That's probably what it was. Uh-huh. The bajooka bog probably burrowed out. No, that would have been better. I mean, I'll always take a bajooka bog. So like that's hard. Uh, no, no, no. I'm like trying to pull back to see what it was, but it was bad. Financially, I was thinking that would be the word. I got, um, I got Dola Moth, which is Mwano School at Waters Edge, which is a card that really needed a reprinting.
00:57:37
Speaker
Oh, oh, God. No, I don't remember what I got. I got like, not only is it not even that exciting of a Lord of the Rings reference, it's it's because it's Medusa led the Golden Hole of Ederoth. Great. Oh, art and veil. It's really Oh, that is bad. Oh,
00:57:57
Speaker
Yeah. Not, not that I didn't get, I wasn't doing Martha. I got it with Buckbell or fairy. It was Oberoff palace in the clouds. That's the one that hadn't gotten reprinted at all. Oh yeah. Yep. The one that you can bounce. Yeah. Bounce itself. Yeah. When I opened it, I was like, well, this is disappointing because it's Buckberry fairy. And I'm like, I hadn't realized it hadn't been reprinted since whatever champions set it was in.
00:58:22
Speaker
Apparently it was a rare card. But I'll just say, I have been waiting and I think that they have shown, as you said, Alex, there was early on a lot of mistrust. There was a lot of feeling that it was fumbled, how it was done, cash grab type stuff. At this point, I think we're just in a world where it's there and they've actually taken a lot of care.
00:58:50
Speaker
This was like, to me, a precursor for setting up the fact that we have Doctor Who coming as one of the next ones. I cannot wait for Doctor Who. Once I announced that it was going to be Commander Plains Chase, I was already excited for it, but then I was sold because that cannot be a better pairing for that IP.
00:59:10
Speaker
And I've said this on here before in many other places, the first place that I ever met Gavin Verhay in human form was at a doctor who convention in LA. So the man used to cosplay as David Tennant doctor all the time. Like that was his cosplay previously doing kind of anything magic related. I am now feeling very, very good about that set coming out.
00:59:37
Speaker
But this was fun to sit down with you two and just literally get to sit and talk about Lord of the Rings and what Wizards is doing with these universe beyonds that, you know, I was on the fence about when they started coming out with them, not gonna lie. And as you said, Alex, I think it was that feeling, the product fatigue, but then at the same time, were there even without these in some way? Yeah, sorry, didn't add anything for me on that.
01:00:06
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I was a little worried. Not a lot, but I was a little worried how this stuff would sort of fit. I think that's it's fine. I mean, it still honestly feels weird when I cast like a Warhammer 40K war medic in my Dehada deck. You know, but whatever. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she's still bringing people back from the dead. But it happens in magic all the time. It's, you know, whatever.
01:00:39
Speaker
there I will say because there's gonna be a lot of upgrades for my Sir Gwen equipment deck and it's gonna be kind of funny to get to equip Sting and Glamdring and you know yeah there's good it's gonna be an interesting thing I think the first time I actually do that but I'm looking forward to it
01:00:58
Speaker
Well, we're, you know, audience, you out there listening, hopefully. We're just glad to be back together and recording. I personally have just really missed you all. And, you know, both Alex and Taya and the audience that isn't, that is only a theoretical audience. But it's been, I've missed this.
01:01:20
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. No, it was good. I'm glad we could all record again. And this was, this was a good topic. I wasn't sure when this was coming out. I was like, this, you know, we talk about lore and stuff, but we talk about magic. Is this relevant? And so I was kind of not sure. And then you both were like, should we talk about this? It's like, well, I guess if we're all thinking, maybe we should that it was good. And this was a good, a good episode. Yeah.
01:01:42
Speaker
So we'll be back soon. We have plans. We still have plans to address the fifth anniversary. So if you were listening, I am still taking submissions just because of the delay of everything. So just you can email a quick hit on what the cast means to you, anything that you want to about it, and just to goblinlorepodcastatgmail.com. Once again, that's goblinlorepodcastatgmail.com. I'll be collecting those, but we'll be.
01:02:09
Speaker
Acknowledging our fifth anniversary in a little bit better style as we missed it the month of June. So see you all soon.
01:02:31
Speaker
Feel free to send us any questions, comments, thoughts, hopes, and dreams to the Goblin Lore Pod on Twitter or email us at goblinlorepodcast.com.
01:02:41
Speaker
If you would like to support your friendly neighborhood Gobstugs, our link tree can be found on our Twitter account and in the description of today's show. This has everything from various discount codes to the link from our Patreon. The music for today's show was by Wintergotten, who can be found at vintergotten at bandcamp.com. The art was done by Steven Raphael, who can be found at Steve Ruffle on Twitter. Goblin Lore is proud to be presented by Hipsters of the Coast as part of their growing Vorthos content.
01:03:09
Speaker
Check them out on Twitter at hipsters MTG or online at hipstersofthecoast.com. Thank you for listening and remember goblins like snowflakes are only dangerous in numbers.