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Episode 23 - Part 1 - Surveying career paths and routes to entry with Jen Lemen
87 Plays2 years ago
In this week's episode, we are speaking with Jen Lemen from Property Elite.
Across the three parts of this episode, we are discussing routes into the surveying industry, the benefits of the different qualifications and understanding what types of work you can take on.
Jen Lemen is a co-founder of Property Elite, Chartered Surveyor and RICS APC assessor. She is the author of 'How to Become a Chartered Surveyor', published by Routledge.
Jen has extensive experience in providing training services to students, RICS AssocRICS, APC and FRICS candidates and corporate clients, together with academic experience as a Senior Lecturer at the University of the West of England, Lecturer at the University of Portsmouth, External Examiner at the University of Westminster and Associate Tutor at the University College of Estate Management. Her RICS assessment experience includes sitting on final APC interview panels, APC appeal panels and being a lead APC preliminary review assessor.
In Part 1 of this episode, we're talking everything surveyor career paths and routes to entry.
We discuss:
📊 The changing landscape of surveying
🛣️ The importance of understanding the different routes into the surveying industry
🎓 RICS-accredited degree courses, apprenticeships, and experience-based routes
👷♀️ What types of work you can carry out as an AssocRICS
💼 Career progression in surveying
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Survey Booker Sessions. Tune in to hear from people working in a range of industries and roles to provide you ideas that you can take away and use in your own business. I'm your host, Matt Nalley, the founder and director of Survey Booker, which is the leading CRM and survey management system for surveyors. On this week's episode, we have Jen Lehman, partner at Property Elite and director of Project Property. So thanks for coming on today. Thanks very much for having me.
00:00:24
Speaker
any time.
Jen Lehman's Career Journey
00:00:25
Speaker
I suppose for people who don't know you, do you want to give us, I suppose, a bit of background as to what you do? Yeah, of course. So I started out my career in surveying, I think, over 15 years ago now, which is faintly terrifying. I've worked in small businesses, a national business, and then actually about seven years ago now left with my now business partner, Rachel Saint.
00:00:53
Speaker
We've got two companies together. So part of our time is spent being chartered surveyors through project property by trade. I am a charter surveyor dealing with commercial property and really specifically lease consultancy. So rent reviews and lease renewals. The rest of my time is spent as a partner of a property
Role and Impact of Property Elite
00:01:17
Speaker
elite. We provide training and support to all different
00:01:21
Speaker
types of surveyors, so I suppose specifically looking at the associate RICS, MRICS. FRICS membership levels as well as supporting, I do quite a lot of work supporting students on their dissertations actually on behalf of UE Bristol, so lots of different roles.
00:01:42
Speaker
Interesting. I suppose before we get onto routes into surveying and so on, how are you seeing how things have changed over the last few years around, I don't know, the sort of interest in who's coming into the industry and what motives they've got?
Evolving Landscape of Surveying
00:02:00
Speaker
I think it's been a very interesting seven years on the training business.
00:02:05
Speaker
I suppose at first, you know, a lot of our work was with your traditional graduates coming through some of the bigger firms. Actually, now I think a lot of firms are looking more closely at non-cognitive graduates, as well as degree apprenticeships. It's just a brilliant way to get experienced individuals, experienced professionals, you know, whether they've been spending in the past or whether they're bringing transferable skills from other industries
00:02:34
Speaker
into surveying. So I think the rise of the apprenticeship now some, you know, the first couple of batches of apprentices have now actually qualified either level three associate or level six MRICS and seeing lots of those now fully qualified is pretty amazing. So I'd say we've seen maybe a wider and more diverse pool of people becoming surveyors and having the opportunity
00:03:00
Speaker
in lots of different firms to get qualified. So yeah, it's been quite an interesting few years.
00:03:05
Speaker
Awesome, it's good to see because that ultimately leads to a better industry in terms of more diverse viewpoints, better buildings we get out of it, but different thoughts on how we progress as a sector. I suppose that the first thing I really wanted to look at though with you today is if you're a student or maybe not a student yet, but you're looking to go into surveying, what are the different routes you can consider? Because I think it can be a bit of a minefield in terms of understanding what
00:03:34
Speaker
route to take, how to go about it, what level to go for. So I suppose the first question then is, yeah, what are the different routes in do you think?
Pathways to Becoming a Surveyor
00:03:43
Speaker
Completely. So if we went from the complete starting point, so let's say somebody's listening is actually still at school or at college, tea levels are now enforced and you can find out more about surveying and become a surveyor starting with tea levels. I think they're brilliant.
00:04:02
Speaker
I suppose your next step if you're looking at looking at a university course you've got a couple of different options. I'd say the easiest is always to do an RICS accredited degree course and if you are looking at going to university 100% I'd make sure that the course is RICS accredited because it will just save you a lot of
00:04:24
Speaker
time and heartache in the long run and it means that you're getting that relevant knowledge right from the start. You can do an accredited degree course as part of a level six apprenticeship. There are courses as well for level three associates. Obviously the cost to you as a student is very much reduced compared to paying your way through university and you'll have then support from your employer.
00:04:51
Speaker
at university as well. So I'd say definitely look at apprenticeships. Apprenticeships are not just for 18, 19, 20 year olds. They are open to anybody. So even if you're a mature student, you can look at apprenticeships as well.
00:05:08
Speaker
I suppose your typical graduate who goes on an RICS accredited degree course, they graduate after their three years full time. Then they go into the world of work, ideally into a surveying role. I suppose the cleanest route to becoming MRICS would then be two years or 24 months of structured training.
00:05:33
Speaker
a slightly different way to get in if you already have a degree that has nothing to do with surveying and it's not RICS accredited. Once you've got five years experience, RICS have a route called preliminary review and you can then become MRICS via that. The same actually also applies if you're experienced and have another professional qualification, something like MCIOB,
00:06:00
Speaker
or if you're a town planner, for example, you then have an access point into becoming MRICS as well. I'd say for anybody listening who's slightly more senior, if you don't have a degree and you're running a business, running a firm in a senior management position, you might be very well placed to look at the senior professional route, and that's 10 years of experience and no qualifications, obviously providing that you're in the right type of role.
Switching Specializations in Surveying
00:06:28
Speaker
I suppose just the last thing to add on to that is obviously associate RICS. Really well thought of, as you'll know in the residential surveying sphere specifically, but also in lots of other areas of surveying as well. Four years experience in a surveying role without any qualifications will give you access to associate. And that four years is reduced down if you do have some relevant qualifications.
00:06:57
Speaker
There's quite a clear path for most surveyors looking to get qualified. I'm sure we'll touch on taking associate RICS to MRICS and the jump between the two later on. There's quite probably a fair amount to say on that.
00:07:13
Speaker
Yeah, definitely, definitely. I suppose just stepping back one step before we go forward is the restrictions you need to think of before you go down a particular route. So for example, let's say you're thinking of going to university and taking on a particular course.
00:07:33
Speaker
Yes, you want to check it as RACS accredited. But would there be an issue if you potentially chose slightly the wrong course in terms of where you then wanted to go within the industry? So for example, you did something that was maybe more quantity surveyor focused, but actually then realized you wanted to go down the residential surveying route. That's an example I could think of. Are there considerations you need to think of at that point? Or actually, is it quite easy to switch and move later?
00:08:01
Speaker
Yeah, it's a great point, actually. I'd say lots of surveys do in later life switch between industries. So, yeah, becoming from a quantity spare to a residential spare. I actually know somebody who did that.
00:08:13
Speaker
In terms of your course title and content, if you very strongly feel that you want to become, for example, a residential surveyor, picking a course that's got residential elements would be a great idea. Some of the degree courses are fairly broad, so something like real estate management or property management and investment or property development, for example.
00:08:42
Speaker
They will cover a wide variety of modules. Something more specific, for example, quantity surveying or building surveying, there still will be some crossover, particularly in the first year modules. They'll obviously become more specialized in the later years. However, having a degree in say building surveying wouldn't limit you in terms of
00:09:06
Speaker
at what you do in terms of associate or APC pathway, that's much more defined by the role, the job role you're doing at the time. Obviously, if you do quantity surveying at university and then go into residential surveying, you might have a bit of a gap in your own knowledge of very specific, it could be residential construction or valuation or some of those specifics. And I think if you do do a degree course, but then
00:09:35
Speaker
look at a different area of surveying, you've got the challenge then to make sure that you bring your knowledge up to the right level. Obviously, you know, there's some great courses out there, your own CPD, speak to your employer. So I wouldn't say it will hold you back. It'll just need you to be quite motivated to find the knowledge that you need to feel competent in that line of work.
The Role of Associates in Surveying
00:09:59
Speaker
Awesome. Okay. I suppose that leads us nicely into the levels of membership, and therefore, I suppose, deciding how you want to go into it from that perspective. So we start with asset risks. And the question I think I had and possibly have put this the wrong way around was,
00:10:18
Speaker
Are there considerations you need to consider around what you can and can't do? And then I think, I think that was possibly the wrong way of looking at it. So you might, I think you're probably better explaining it than I am. But is there considerations around, I suppose, progressing into the asset risk route and then what you need to consider in terms of the future? Yeah. So, I would say in terms of associate RICS, there will be things that you,
00:10:46
Speaker
you can and can't do. Often that will be prescribed by what clients want. So, for example, if you're doing mortgage valuations, the lender might require, you know, maybe for certain values of work, for certain types of work, you know, they may say we require MRICS, they may say they require associate. As an associate, you can set up an RICS regulated firm.
00:11:11
Speaker
And it is, I would say the level of membership that you go for will be a product of what your clients want. Some of the bigger firms for say a quantity surveyor, building surveyor, a commercial property surveyor may have a requirement for MRICS or progression to that within a certain period of time. So I think it very much depends upon what part of the industry
00:11:40
Speaker
you're working in and what clients require. Associate can be a great qualification. Obviously, if you want to work for yourself, it does give you that ability to then register a firm. And the time scale you'd be looking at would be realistically between that one and four years, depending on the qualifications that you've already got.
00:12:04
Speaker
I always think when it comes down to it, the type of work that you can and can't do, number one, are there any RICS requirements about what type of surveyor can do what type of work and obviously client requirements, but also are you competent, experienced and knowledgeable? If you can't tick those three boxes, then it won't be the right work for you.
00:12:30
Speaker
Um, that's not to say though, that you can't work with somebody else. You know, you can't bring in a consultant to, to do the work with you. You couldn't shadow somebody else to then build up your own competence and that type of work. Um, hopefully that, that answers the question to an extent.
00:12:47
Speaker
Yeah, it does. I think it's an interesting way of framing it, looking at more of the competence experience and knowledge aspects and demonstrating that versus just what can the very crudely level one, two, three do. So one thing you touched on actually was, you know, asset risks or associate risks isn't something to consider just as residential survey valuation, for example. So it can associates do
00:13:14
Speaker
at any type of work, provided they meet the sort of competency, non-adjust specs. Yeah, I'd say definitely probably another trend we've seen in the last couple of years is more recognition of associates RICS outside, the kind of traditional residential surveying environment. So we've seen project managers building surveyors,
00:13:36
Speaker
commercial property survey, so maybe a commercial property manager. We're definitely seeing, I'd say, growth in other sectors becoming associate. Sometimes people do it as a, it's kind of a, I don't mean a stopgap, but a stepping stone before they then go for MRICS later on. Associate, it's a written assessment without an interview, so I'd say,
00:14:05
Speaker
Um, it maybe takes, you know, slightly less time to achieve because you don't have that extra interview element. Um, I know some, some candidates really struggle with the interview. So actually associate with just a written submission. Um, they, they feel suits them a lot better. So that's the qualification that they, that they then go for. Um, but yeah, I certainly think, um, you know, associate is very well, very well respected.
00:14:33
Speaker
various parts of the industry, probably just some sectors recognize it slightly more than others. Yeah, I think it's a good point to consider that if you are more anxious about interviews, understandably, then actually it's a good way in where it takes the pressure off getting into the industry in the first place.
00:14:57
Speaker
and feeling like you can then build up the confidence and competence and so on to then go through the next steps. How long after, if you were to take the ASOPRIX route as an example, then how long after that might you, or why might you consider going down the sort of member, ASOPRIX level and are there benefits to moving up?
00:15:21
Speaker
Sure.
Motivations for Achieving MRICS
00:15:22
Speaker
So it depends. So it depends always the answer, isn't it? But associate, if you don't have a degree, associate four years post qualification experience and then
00:15:35
Speaker
What RICS call the study hours route associate progression would be something you might look at. It's a route that I understand RICS have been reviewing potentially with the view to overhauling it, but I haven't heard anything else. Essentially at the moment, it's 900 study hours taken off the last year of an RICS accredited degree course. I suppose your alternative to that might be looking at a degree apprenticeship.
00:16:04
Speaker
because obviously the cost implications of that would be potentially slightly less. Candidates who are associates who already have a degree might then look at preliminary review or if you're an associate and you have your own firm it might be then the senior professional route. So apart from that steady hours route
00:16:26
Speaker
I'd say the two membership levels are very, very distinct and associate doesn't necessarily give you a bigger stepping stone for a starting point to MRICS. I know that for lots of associates actually becoming MRICS lets you use the term childhood surveyor and that for me is such a
00:16:53
Speaker
It's such a special term because it's protected by raw charter. Everybody, you know, we've got charted physios, for example, we've got charted town planners. The public do recognize that a chartered individual has, you know, a lot of experience and a lot of knowledge. So that in some cases it might just be a personal achievement.
00:17:19
Speaker
a personal achievement to have that, maybe forever.
Challenges for Experienced Surveyors
00:17:25
Speaker
Other candidates, it's all about career progression. There is a jump up, there is some research out there to show that MRICS, so a qualified individual, does see a step up in salary. I've got the figures somewhere, but yeah, you do generally see a step up in salary, so that career progression, maybe being put on bigger projects,
00:17:48
Speaker
trusted with, with, with bigger clients, et cetera. That can be something that comes with it as well. If that's, um, that that's what you're looking for. Interesting. And do you, do you see a difference in the route taken depending on, I suppose age partly. And then the reason if I say for that is if you're coming out of uni or going into uni, you might take a course that's rate-qualified that then is easier to go through the, the Emrix route or, and then if you're potentially moving across from another industry,
00:18:19
Speaker
after say 10 years or however long, are you then more likely to work on something that allows you to do that part time and is it easy to do both routes part time or is it potentially easier to go down the asphalt ricks to begin with and then progress up? In a way I think it
00:18:37
Speaker
I think maybe sometimes later in life, actually family, work, personal life, you've got a lot less time than maybe when you were 20 and fresh out of university. So actually sometimes associate later in life can just be easier to fit in because you don't then have that period of sticking your head down and revising for
00:19:00
Speaker
three, four, five months. So sometimes we do see candidates going for associate, you know, purely because later in life they don't have as much time. I say anybody with a degree, the route to MRICS is generally fairly simple. It's frustratingly your
00:19:24
Speaker
associate qualified candidate who doesn't have a degree, but is very experienced that if they're not in a senior professional position, they're a bit stuck. If they don't want to go back and study, which, you know, as you just said, it takes a lot of time. So I think we do have kind of a group of candidates who might like to become MRICS, but they're stuck in between a bit of a rock and a hard place at the moment.
00:19:54
Speaker
I think I'd love to see RICS do something to bring them through because in theory, they're not in that much of a different, you know, they're kind of similar to your non-cognitive grad with experience because both are experienced and they don't have a degree in the relevant subjects. They just need some way to get the right knowledge to hit the mark. So I'm sure that'll ring bells for quite a few people out there.
00:20:21
Speaker
Oh, definitely, definitely. Then I suppose my final question from the membership levels and routes into surveying, if you're looking at your potential career progression, why might someone want to go for the fellowship or FRICS route?
FRICS Pathway and Career Progression
00:20:41
Speaker
And how does that work? What are the type of timeframes? Yeah, sure. So for FRICS, it's a written submission.
00:20:49
Speaker
You have to write a profile about yourself explaining career history achievements and then specifically you've got four statements to write about four fellowship characteristics that you choose off a list of 16. Things examples are things like leadership, client management, specific qualifications,
00:21:13
Speaker
uh, furthering RICS or revert professional bodies. So they're, they're kind of your extracurricular, um, being a role model promoting the industry. So it's one step above just doing the job of a chartered surveyor. Um, uh, in terms of why would you want to do it? Um, personally, when I did mine, it was, um,
00:21:37
Speaker
It was a personal thing. It was a personal pride. For me, it showed that I'd gone over and above just being a chartered surveyor. My dad and my granddad were both F-R-I-C-S as well. So for me, it was joining their family and that as well. But I know for lots of people it is,
00:22:05
Speaker
Yeah, it's just showing that you've done extra things, you know, you've supported communities, others, you've gone over and above. And I think, you know, if you've got the time and the experience to do that, it's such a lovely feeling to have those extra letters or the swapped letter on the end of your name. Yeah, I love that. And it's a nice story for you actually as well.
00:22:31
Speaker
I'll have to touch on that a bit later actually. I suppose my only other question that I did say at my last one was my final one. Between the different levels and how do you know when it's right to go for the different ones in terms of retouch back on the competence experience and knowledge aspects? How do you measure when you have reached the right level in each of those to be able to either take on certain types of work or to be able to progress the frameworks you can look at?
00:23:02
Speaker
Well, I always kind of say that your minimum requirement would be a graduate with two years experience, which in the grand scheme of things could be still quite young and quite fresh. Obviously then you have such a wide spectrum, up to 20 years experience, never got membership, but now wants to put a tick in the box and have the letters. I think,
00:23:31
Speaker
I think realistically, um, maybe when you change, change jobs, that kind of gives you the, um, you know, the go ahead of, I need to get that to progress. Um, I think speaking to, speaking to others at work as well, and, you know, kind of, um, uh, comparing yourself to where, where others are and what qualifications they've got. Um, just to see, you know, if I have similar experience to X, um, you know, reasonably I could go for
00:24:01
Speaker
or associate as well. I think in terms of competence, so both associate and MRICS, everybody has a pathway. For example, the residential pathway. Within that, you've got a set of mandatory competencies, so your core business skills, and then you've got a set of technical competencies.
00:24:30
Speaker
associate, you've got a slightly reduced number of technical competencies. And then for the APC, they're actually split into levels one, two, and three. A really easy way if you're not sure if you're hitting the mark yet, whether it's associate or the APC, if you were to get a spreadsheet and put the competencies you need to hit, just see if you could maybe come up with, maybe for associate,
00:24:56
Speaker
maybe it could be five to 10 really good examples for each competency. For the APC, for example, it could be 10 to 20 examples maybe for each level. And just see if you've got any gaps or less examples in a specific competency and use that as a bit of an analysis for where you are now. If you haven't got any experience in a competency, you might not be ready to go forward. But if you've got
00:25:26
Speaker
lots and lots and lots across everything. That's probably a really good indicator that you're ready. That's nice idea actually, putting that together because it's a way of giving yourself your own self-evaluation and assessment to justify to yourself whether there are areas that you might want to spend more time looking at in terms of knowledge or going out on site to get experience. Or as a discussion point internally, if you have a manager you want to talk to about these things.
00:25:54
Speaker
you can sort of demonstrate where you believe you are. And you can see whether they think that you're in the same place further ahead than you realize slightly behind on other ones that you can then work out a plan together. Definitely. Yeah, I think that, and even just being proactive about it and going, well, you know, if I want to go forward for MRICS, let's say rebuilding survey, but you've never done any contract administration.
00:26:20
Speaker
That's a level three competency, and it's one that quite a few buildings players do struggle with. So, you know, if you're thinking, well, you know, in a year's time, I'd like to go and submit for the APC. You've got 12 months to go and find.
00:26:33
Speaker
find relevant experience to hit that box so yeah it can just be such a good way of personal development and just yeah just making sure that you've got the experience to hit the mark and then you know at the end of the day you're providing the best possible advice to clients and you'll be a very valuable employee.