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S2 Episode 11: Absurdism and Existentialism
11 Plays1 year ago
Today we talk about absurdism and existentialism. This episode will hopefully give you an insight into these topics, and we hope that you thoroughly enjoy.
Do feel free to leave a comment, or email us at debatablediscussions1@gmail.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Absurdism and Existentialism
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Debatable Discussions podcast.
00:00:04
Speaker
Today you join me and Diane for an episode on absurdism and existentialism.
00:00:10
Speaker
Yep, so today we're going to be talking about, frankly, probably the most important schools of thought in the 20th century, pioneered by two people in particular.
Philosophical Contributions of Sartre and Camus
00:00:21
Speaker
So existentialism by Jean-Paul Sartre in his book Nausea and then in his other treaty, Being a Nothingness, and then absurdism by this man, Albert Camus.
00:00:34
Speaker
Yes.
00:00:36
Speaker
with his outsider, the myth of Sisyphus, the fall, etc, etc, etc.
00:00:41
Speaker
Now, both of them have technically won a Nobel Prize, although Sartre decided not to accept his because he was very against the establishment and decided he's not even going to accept it.
00:00:52
Speaker
He did win it though.
00:00:54
Speaker
Camus, also winner of the Nobel Prize.
00:00:56
Speaker
Thing for the plague, if I'm not mistaken.
Defining Absurdism and Its Social Challenges
00:01:00
Speaker
But yeah, let's start with absurdism, John.
00:01:02
Speaker
So could you just explain a bit?
00:01:04
Speaker
So I think in a sentence, absurdism is effectively about two main things, and that is rationality and meaningless.
00:01:14
Speaker
So if you ask an absurdist, they'll just say there's no point in doing what we do in the universe because we don't have any end goal.
00:01:20
Speaker
We have no purpose and it's meaningless.
00:01:24
Speaker
So as we'll talk about in Aletroge or The Outsider, why should we follow social norms when there's no meaning in doing it?
00:01:32
Speaker
And another sort of key idea around absurdism is the idea of irrationality.
00:01:38
Speaker
Nothing sort of makes sense in absurdism, say, in the universe.
00:01:41
Speaker
And there's basically no meaning behind doing anything in it.
00:01:46
Speaker
Diane, what do you think absurdism is?
00:01:49
Speaker
I mean, it's a hard thing to sort of define because it's so... Yeah, it's sort of hard to put in words, isn't it?
00:01:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:55
Speaker
I think the main there's also another score of four from the 20th century nihilism, but there's a very big difference between existentialism and absurdism and nihilism because nihilists believe meaning just is impossible.
Nihilism vs. Absurdism
00:02:09
Speaker
Absurdists on the other hand believe that although meaning is impossible, this doesn't matter.
00:02:14
Speaker
We should just live life and enjoy it.
00:02:15
Speaker
Nihilists don't really, they're a bit more pessimistic and such a Schopenhauer.
00:02:21
Speaker
But
00:02:22
Speaker
Yeah, absurdism is basically the idea that nothing in life makes sense, that we've got no inherent meaning and that we can't find this.
00:02:31
Speaker
We're always in a stage of just about to catch meaning, but we're unable to do so.
00:02:37
Speaker
But we should live our life and enjoy it.
00:02:39
Speaker
And basically, as you said, John, it's a defiance of these social norms and other...
00:02:47
Speaker
societal expectations in a way, because why should you follow them?
00:02:51
Speaker
There's no point.
00:02:53
Speaker
So yes, this sort of very nicely moves on to perhaps the piece of writing most well known for presenting Absurdism.
Camus' Character Mersot and Absurdism
00:03:00
Speaker
And as we earlier said, this is Aless Ranger, also known as The Outsider by Albert Camus.
00:03:06
Speaker
Albert Camus was a French writer and philosopher, and he's very well known for
00:03:14
Speaker
basically for how he sort of ties in this philosophical concept of absurdism with the story, with literature effectively.
00:03:23
Speaker
And he does it through a character called Mersot.
00:03:26
Speaker
Now, Mersot,
00:03:28
Speaker
is, I mean, if absurdism was a person, so would be absurdism.
00:03:33
Speaker
So he doesn't really show things like emotions.
00:03:36
Speaker
He's very socially awkward.
00:03:39
Speaker
He can't really engage in conversation as well.
00:03:42
Speaker
All of these things come very difficult to him and he doesn't understand anything like societal norms or expectations.
00:03:49
Speaker
Now, Mersot, the reason for why he has this is quite a simple French phrase which Camus loves to repeat throughout the novel, and that is, literally, it means nothing.
00:04:03
Speaker
So that sort of goes back to the idea of meaninglessness and absurdism, because for Mersot, Camus is basically saying, what's the point in following
00:04:14
Speaker
societal norms and well in this case as it is in the book showing emotion at your mother's funeral merceau sees no advantage to himself in doing that similarly merceau hates conversations because i think in his eyes he sees no point in conversation there's no meaning for him really yeah yeah i agree i mean there's also i'm trying to find it here in the book without success unfortunately but
00:04:39
Speaker
There's a scene when I think his girlfriend asks, is he going to marry her?
00:04:44
Speaker
He's just like, whatever.
00:04:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:46
Speaker
If you want.
00:04:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:48
Speaker
I mean, he really does.
00:04:50
Speaker
He's sort of, he's very sort of laissez-faire, you could say.
00:04:53
Speaker
He just doesn't put his mind.
00:04:55
Speaker
It means nothing to many of these sort of constructed societal things.
00:04:59
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:05:00
Speaker
So I think that's, again, not showing emotion in his mother's funeral.
00:05:03
Speaker
That's a very big one.
00:05:04
Speaker
He was more concerned about the fact that he was all in the room.
00:05:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:07
Speaker
Okay.
00:05:08
Speaker
But then also, you know,
00:05:09
Speaker
being asked, are you going to marry me?
00:05:10
Speaker
And the reply being, I mean, if you want, whatever, is also, I think, and we can see this at the end of the book as well, when he shoots the Arab.
00:05:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:23
Speaker
He just doesn't really care.
00:05:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:26
Speaker
But then I think there is a bit of a switch towards the end of the book, John.
00:05:31
Speaker
And the fact that he does begin to kind of reminisce on his memories a little bit.
00:05:38
Speaker
But yeah, what do you think?
00:05:40
Speaker
Do you think people should follow up so this one?
00:05:43
Speaker
I think it's very difficult because I think people always sort of search for meaning in life.
00:05:49
Speaker
And I think you can construct a meaning, but whether there's an objective meaning, it's sort of very difficult to decipher whether there really is.
00:05:59
Speaker
And I mean, I don't think the universe is necessarily irrational.
00:06:05
Speaker
However, I do think there are societal norms which you should follow.
00:06:09
Speaker
Yes, they may be meaningless to follow them, but societal norms sort of equate to respect.
00:06:16
Speaker
And if you're like Merso and you say, no, I'm not going to talk to people or show any emotion, people think you're quite weird.
00:06:26
Speaker
And he ends up with consequences like Merso had in which he was sent to prison effectively because his absurdist philosophy made people just sort of totally lose any sort of sense of belief or truthfulness in him.
00:06:39
Speaker
So I think it's perhaps a bit of an extreme personal philosophy to have.
00:06:43
Speaker
It does have reason.
00:06:45
Speaker
like why do we do all these things when there really isn't much meaning in doing it?
00:06:50
Speaker
But then I think it's probably a matter of just respect.
00:06:52
Speaker
What do you think about absurdism, Dayan?
00:06:54
Speaker
Are you an absurdist?
00:06:57
Speaker
No, no.
00:06:59
Speaker
But I did kind of try it for a while.
00:07:03
Speaker
It doesn't really work.
00:07:06
Speaker
I think also another big book from Camus on this is The Myth of Sisyphus.
The Myth of Sisyphus: Finding Joy in Struggle
00:07:11
Speaker
Yes.
00:07:13
Speaker
very important one, Frank.
00:07:14
Speaker
I think that's really his piece of philosophy.
00:07:17
Speaker
I have it somewhere here, actually.
00:07:22
Speaker
Oh, yes.
00:07:22
Speaker
This sort of, I don't know, 100-page book.
00:07:28
Speaker
But in the myth of Sisyphus, there's the very famous phrase, one must imagine Sisyphus happy.
00:07:33
Speaker
So, Camus basically wants to say that although Sisyphus rolls the boulder up the hill every day without success,
00:07:43
Speaker
he's still happy because he's constantly trying to push himself and evolve.
00:07:49
Speaker
And that is another one of his main ideas here is that
00:07:55
Speaker
Although we don't have meaning, just living is a joy in itself.
00:07:59
Speaker
That's what Camus is actually trying to say, even though with all the hardships of life, since this is an example of him having to carry a boulder up a hill infinitely, life is still enjoyable.
00:08:10
Speaker
I think, I mean, we can delve into the character of Camus as well as why he believed these things.
00:08:15
Speaker
He had numerous affairs with more women than I can count.
00:08:19
Speaker
Almost pushed his wife to suicide because of it.
00:08:23
Speaker
was involved with Hollywood actresses, everyone that was a woman.
00:08:30
Speaker
And I think for him as an individual, he kind of just saw the joy in living.
00:08:36
Speaker
You know, he was, especially at his time, you know, he wrote in the underground movement in Paris under the German occupation in the Second World War.
00:08:48
Speaker
So it was a very tough time.
00:08:50
Speaker
I think he obviously got affected by that quite a lot, having to sort of deal with the fact that the Nazis have marched into Paris and that his life has changed.
00:08:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:00
Speaker
And he came up with this theory of absurdism and kind of replaced all the monotony that, you know, some people appreciate in life with constant and constant and constant pleasure and excitement.
00:09:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:13
Speaker
And that's his thesis, is that we shouldn't just...
00:09:16
Speaker
We just have fun.
00:09:17
Speaker
If we only live once, we might as well have fun.
Camus' Historical Context and Its Influence
00:09:21
Speaker
Just going back to, as you said, the myth of Sisyphus, and for any listeners who don't know what that is, that's about this sort of ancient tale of Greek mythology around someone called, and actually a king called Sisyphus.
00:09:33
Speaker
He sort of has to push this boulder up a mountain or hill every single day.
00:09:37
Speaker
And that is something that I think really does resonate with most people when you think of our lives.
00:09:43
Speaker
You know, we go to school every day.
00:09:44
Speaker
It's the same routine.
00:09:46
Speaker
Do we enjoy it?
00:09:47
Speaker
Yes.
00:09:48
Speaker
But would we do it if we didn't have to?
00:09:50
Speaker
Probably not.
00:09:52
Speaker
And, you know, it's about the monotony of everything of everyday life doing the exact same thing, pushing this boulder uphill to that peak where
00:10:02
Speaker
you don't have it.
00:10:03
Speaker
Again, you push the boulder down the other side of the hill and you're free.
00:10:07
Speaker
However, then you've got another challenge.
00:10:09
Speaker
I mean, for young people, that's sort of reflecting how when you finish GCSE exams, you've pushed that boulder up the hill, but then you're back down at the bottom of another boulder to push up.
00:10:20
Speaker
And that sort of does reflect how we are sort of stuck in this monotonous cycle of everyday existence.
00:10:27
Speaker
However, though, Dan, I think the key thing is what do you make of this cycle of everyday existence of doing the same thing?
00:10:36
Speaker
Because you can find joy in it.
00:10:37
Speaker
You can think about, oh, it's a boring chore every day, just doing the exact same thing.
00:10:43
Speaker
Or you can find enjoyment and pleasure amongst the tools.
00:10:47
Speaker
Yeah, I 100% agree with you there.
00:10:49
Speaker
I think that is really the key in understanding Camus is sort of away from his absurdist belief that meaning is inherent.
00:11:03
Speaker
He also comes up with
00:11:05
Speaker
the sort of more subtle idea that although, you know, because life, there's a lot of pain, you know, humans feel, whether that be emotional, physical, depending on people's job situation, life is very difficult.
00:11:21
Speaker
And Camus just says, well, it doesn't have to be if you don't care about it.
00:11:24
Speaker
It doesn't affect you.
00:11:25
Speaker
So it's a bit of a coping mechanism, I think.
00:11:29
Speaker
In a way, like stoicism, but a bit different to stoicism.
Introduction to Existentialism and Sartre
00:11:35
Speaker
Well, shall we now move on to existentialism?
00:11:37
Speaker
So, yes.
00:11:38
Speaker
I mean, why don't you explain existentialism first?
00:11:42
Speaker
Because it's not like absurdism, but you can sort of group them in the same sort of field-ish.
00:11:49
Speaker
Yeah, so Absurdism is by, is an obsession, by this guy Jean-Paul Sartre.
00:11:57
Speaker
And this is one of the main books about existentialism, nausea.
00:12:02
Speaker
And basically Sartre also comes up with the fact that the universe is inherently meaningless.
00:12:08
Speaker
However, different to Camus, he does believe that we can create our own meaning.
00:12:12
Speaker
So for example, if my meaning, if I decide that I want to go study this at this university,
00:12:18
Speaker
I've created meaning.
00:12:19
Speaker
Camus would disagree and say that's just an illusion.
00:12:22
Speaker
But Saadz and Camus were friends initially, very good friends.
00:12:27
Speaker
And then it kind of all went down here after Russia.
00:12:31
Speaker
Camus was an anarchist.
00:12:33
Speaker
Saadz was a communist.
00:12:34
Speaker
So Saadz would continue to deny the existence of labor camps in the Soviet Union.
00:12:40
Speaker
Camus basically thought he was an idiot and they stopped being friends.
00:12:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:46
Speaker
I do recommend this book.
00:12:48
Speaker
This is the guy right here.
00:12:49
Speaker
I do recommend this book to everyone.
00:12:51
Speaker
I think it's, in my opinion, one of the most stimulating books I've read.
00:12:56
Speaker
However, I do have to give a caveat.
00:12:58
Speaker
Do not read too much at once.
00:13:01
Speaker
Because it can get very dark very easily.
00:13:03
Speaker
And it's just not a very pleasant experience to be reading about.
00:13:06
Speaker
Okay, I just come up on, you know... It's basically in the form of a journal.
00:13:12
Speaker
So, the protagonist...
00:13:15
Speaker
He's struggling with his existence.
00:13:17
Speaker
He's got no one to live for, nothing to live for.
00:13:20
Speaker
And this is his genre, in a way.
00:13:22
Speaker
So you can see sometimes with days like Wednesday.
00:13:25
Speaker
And all it says is, I must not be frightened.
00:13:28
Speaker
Or, yeah.
00:13:30
Speaker
There's another day.
00:13:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:33
Speaker
Thursday, there was nothing.
00:13:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:36
Speaker
Existed.
00:13:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:38
Speaker
So Sartre really does grapple, I think, with the idea of existence.
00:13:43
Speaker
a bit more than Camus, in a more pessimistic way than Camus.
00:13:47
Speaker
Because Camus is all very, you know, sunshine and rainbows.
00:13:50
Speaker
There's no meaning, but who cares?
00:13:53
Speaker
Sartre, on the other hand, is like, there's no meaning, but we can do and we have to do something about it or we'll go insane and mortally depressed, just like this guy in this book.
00:14:03
Speaker
What do you think, John?
00:14:05
Speaker
So, yeah, I think similarly, I think existentialism, it's about the idea that perhaps there's no definite meaning in the world.
00:14:13
Speaker
However, it's up to us to find our own meaning.
00:14:18
Speaker
And some other key ideas, I think, in existentialism are free will.
00:14:22
Speaker
There's an emphasis on that and on sort of individualism and individual responsibility.
00:14:28
Speaker
And it's all sort of built up to sort of finding purpose and meaning in your own life.
00:14:33
Speaker
Whereas, as you said, Camus is just quite resolute in his belief that there is no meaning in this world and everything you do isn't really worth it because you're getting nothing out of it.
00:14:47
Speaker
Yes, so perhaps moving on to a big question linked to existentialism.
00:14:52
Speaker
Do you think there is any meaning in life, Dayan?
00:14:55
Speaker
Or do you think you just find that meaning yourself?
00:14:58
Speaker
I think it's a very hard question for me because I do quite heavily align with existentialist philosophy.
00:15:10
Speaker
More than to anything else, I think, really.
00:15:13
Speaker
I'm a mix between existentialism and stoicism.
00:15:16
Speaker
But existentialism, for me, what brings out a very big truth is that inherently, if we were alone on the planet, we're no one else and we're nothing to do, life would have no meaning.
00:15:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:34
Speaker
I think meaning is given by the people around you.
00:15:38
Speaker
and what you can do for them.
00:15:40
Speaker
So is there an objective meaning?
00:15:42
Speaker
Kind of, I think.
00:15:45
Speaker
I think
00:15:46
Speaker
The objective meaning maybe might be helping others and being a good citizen.
00:15:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:51
Speaker
But I think that everyone has to find that for themselves.
00:15:54
Speaker
Because people help people in different ways.
00:15:56
Speaker
If you're a doctor, you help people in different ways compared to being someone who cleans the streets or someone who is a banker.
00:16:07
Speaker
Everyone helps in their own way, generally.
00:16:10
Speaker
But yeah, I do think it does have a very big place for me, existentialism.
00:16:15
Speaker
I think it's very important because there are some moments where you look at the world and you're like, well, what is going on?
00:16:22
Speaker
And for me, sort of the absurdist naivete doesn't really count me that much.
00:16:28
Speaker
What do you think, John?
00:16:29
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely agree with you of how, and it's quite a well-known idea, I think, that meaning just comes from those around you and from other people.
00:16:38
Speaker
I think the best example is basically legacy.
00:16:41
Speaker
So a lot of people say the meaning of their life, their motivation to do well is legacy.
00:16:46
Speaker
However, legacy only comes from people around you being able to remember you, basically.
00:16:52
Speaker
Similarly with people who say, oh, my meaning of my life is...
00:16:56
Speaker
to provide for my family, kids, give them the best possible future.
00:17:00
Speaker
And that's because of love, simply again because of the people around you.
Finding Meaning Through Others and Relationships
00:17:04
Speaker
So I think meaning, as you said, it's only built when you've got a network of people around you.
00:17:10
Speaker
However, if you perhaps feel really alone, then you may say, well, my life has no meaning.
00:17:17
Speaker
If you're an isolated person, you wouldn't see meaning in your life.
00:17:23
Speaker
Saying that you may see meaning in your life
00:17:26
Speaker
in a sort of different way, perhaps, in a way of personal enjoyment, of fulfilling yourself personally.
00:17:34
Speaker
However, I think that's something that's very difficult to do in an isolated existence.
00:17:39
Speaker
So I do really think, as you said, actually going back to it.
00:17:42
Speaker
legacy, love, these all common things which people say is the meaning of life, they are all encompassed by the idea that it's other people that make the meaning of living.
00:17:55
Speaker
I'd also like to draw the attention to one of the most famous phrases by Sartre in his book, Being a Nothingness,
00:18:04
Speaker
which is that existence
Existence Precedes Essence: Sartre's Philosophy
00:18:05
Speaker
precedes essence.
00:18:06
Speaker
So what does this mean?
00:18:07
Speaker
Basically, he means that first you exist and then you create your own meaning and you have an essence.
00:18:11
Speaker
You have something you live for.
00:18:14
Speaker
But you have to exist first.
00:18:16
Speaker
So Sartre believes that for the fetus in the womb, there's no meaning.
00:18:22
Speaker
However, as the fetus gets born and you begin to mature, then you can only find meaning.
00:18:29
Speaker
So I think that's a very interesting, actually, point because
00:18:34
Speaker
Would you count someone who's like three, four months old?
00:18:37
Speaker
Do they have a meaning?
00:18:40
Speaker
Oh, yes.
00:18:40
Speaker
That is a good question.
00:18:45
Speaker
I'd argue they do.
00:18:46
Speaker
I'd argue they do.
00:18:46
Speaker
I don't think they do for themselves.
00:18:48
Speaker
I think they did have a meaning because of other people.
00:18:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:52
Speaker
And also you get a worrying thing because a three, four month year old is still a human.
00:18:57
Speaker
So if you say they don't have a meaning, then you sort of slightly can contradict yourself saying humans have a meaning because you're saying a large part of humanity doesn't have a meaning.
00:19:07
Speaker
No, yes.
00:19:08
Speaker
But I think this is a question, though, that is very much seen in the medical field of today.
00:19:14
Speaker
You'll know, Dan, as an aspiring doctor, but it's sort of like the meaning of, let's say, an embryo.
00:19:20
Speaker
Or it's a commonly used debate in, let's say, abortion and things like that.
00:19:26
Speaker
Like, should we do such actions because there is meaning in life and we're taking away that meaning from someone else?
00:19:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:36
Speaker
Well, yeah, I think that's a very interesting point.
00:19:38
Speaker
And I'm kind of stuck in a way because by Sartre's definition...
00:19:50
Speaker
Technically yes, technically no.
00:19:53
Speaker
But I do think that Sartre would have agreed with abortion because he's a very big believer in free
Free Will and Personal Meaning in Existentialism
00:20:02
Speaker
will.
00:20:02
Speaker
That's another big one actually.
00:20:04
Speaker
Existentialists believe in a huge amount of free will.
00:20:08
Speaker
Because, you know, without free will you can't make your own destinies, you know, so to send your own meaning.
00:20:13
Speaker
But another one is like, life is a bane on my existence and I am absolutely free.
00:20:19
Speaker
sort of almost says that being free is actually a very good thing.
00:20:25
Speaker
And I do see his point here because when you are free, you've got more to think about.
00:20:29
Speaker
You've got more problems.
00:20:30
Speaker
I'm just going to make a caveat here.
00:20:34
Speaker
I'm not justifying for slavery or anything else.
00:20:38
Speaker
I don't want to be misquoted.
00:20:40
Speaker
But there is definitely, with more freedoms you have, so financial freedoms, with the more freedom you have,
00:20:48
Speaker
The more choices you have and then the more, you know, the more difficult things.
00:20:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:52
Speaker
For example, if you are, uh, in an Islamic country, for example, you're not allowed to drink alcohol.
00:20:59
Speaker
Okay.
00:20:59
Speaker
You can't buy it.
00:21:00
Speaker
You know, you can't make that decision.
00:21:02
Speaker
Am I going to buy this, which is going to damage my health, but it's going to make me feel good for like two hours.
00:21:07
Speaker
However, if you are in a Western country, you can make that decision, which, you know, does have its own benefits of making that decision, but it also has its own negatives because
00:21:18
Speaker
you are struggling in a way with some decisions where like, well, this isn't really good for me, but I think that's where existentialism is.
00:21:26
Speaker
It's just at the middle border of those tough decisions.
00:21:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:32
Speaker
What do you think, John?
00:21:34
Speaker
Yes.
00:21:34
Speaker
And as you said, it sort of rests on that sort of cornerstone of free will.
00:21:39
Speaker
Yes.
00:21:40
Speaker
However, when you said the more, let's say, freedom you have, the more choices you have to make, some would say, though, that maybe they're just better choices to make.
00:21:52
Speaker
As in, it's like when people say of the first world problems, having to choose between two nice things.
00:21:58
Speaker
At the end of the day, it's choices that I think you'd rather want to have the ability to make than not.
00:22:02
Speaker
Of course, of course.
Conclusion and Recommendations
00:22:04
Speaker
So for that, I think we can conclude Season 2, Episode 11 of the Debasable Discussions podcast.
00:22:11
Speaker
I hope you have enjoyed the discussion today about absurdism and existentialism.
00:22:17
Speaker
I would also definitely encourage you to read the works of Albert Camus and Sartre.
00:22:25
Speaker
Yeah, thank you very much.
00:22:27
Speaker
And hopefully you enjoyed the episode.
00:22:29
Speaker
If you did, do please leave us a comment and a five star review.
00:22:32
Speaker
If you do not follow the podcast already, do follow the podcast.
00:22:36
Speaker
And I look forward to seeing you next week with another philosophy related episode with a special guest.
00:22:43
Speaker
Thank you very much and see you next week.