Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome back to the Debatable Discussions podcast.
Speaker: Today you join me and Diane for an episode on absurdism and existentialism.
Speaker: Yep, so today we're going to be talking about, frankly, probably the most important schools of thought in the 20th century, pioneered by two people in particular.
Speaker: So existentialism by Jean-Paul Sartre in his book Nausea and then in his other treaty, Being a Nothingness, and then absurdism by this man, Albert Camus.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: with his outsider, the myth of Sisyphus, the fall, etc, etc, etc.
Speaker: Now, both of them have technically won a Nobel Prize, although Sartre decided not to accept his because he was very against the establishment and decided he's not even going to accept it.
Speaker: He did win it though.
Speaker: Camus, also winner of the Nobel Prize.
Speaker: Thing for the plague, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker: But yeah, let's start with absurdism, John.
Speaker: So could you just explain a bit?
Speaker: So I think in a sentence, absurdism is effectively about two main things, and that is rationality and meaningless.
Speaker: So if you ask an absurdist, they'll just say there's no point in doing what we do in the universe because we don't have any end goal.
Speaker: We have no purpose and it's meaningless.
Speaker: So as we'll talk about in Aletroge or The Outsider, why should we follow social norms when there's no meaning in doing it?
Speaker: And another sort of key idea around absurdism is the idea of irrationality.
Speaker: Nothing sort of makes sense in absurdism, say, in the universe.
Speaker: And there's basically no meaning behind doing anything in it.
Speaker: Diane, what do you think absurdism is?
Speaker: I mean, it's a hard thing to sort of define because it's so... Yeah, it's sort of hard to put in words, isn't it?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think the main there's also another score of four from the 20th century nihilism, but there's a very big difference between existentialism and absurdism and nihilism because nihilists believe meaning just is impossible.
Speaker: Absurdists on the other hand believe that although meaning is impossible, this doesn't matter.
Speaker: We should just live life and enjoy it.
Speaker: Nihilists don't really, they're a bit more pessimistic and such a Schopenhauer.
Speaker: But
Speaker: Yeah, absurdism is basically the idea that nothing in life makes sense, that we've got no inherent meaning and that we can't find this.
Speaker: We're always in a stage of just about to catch meaning, but we're unable to do so.
Speaker: But we should live our life and enjoy it.
Speaker: And basically, as you said, John, it's a defiance of these social norms and other...
Speaker: societal expectations in a way, because why should you follow them?
Speaker: There's no point.
Speaker: So yes, this sort of very nicely moves on to perhaps the piece of writing most well known for presenting Absurdism.
Speaker: And as we earlier said, this is Aless Ranger, also known as The Outsider by Albert Camus.
Speaker: Albert Camus was a French writer and philosopher, and he's very well known for
Speaker: basically for how he sort of ties in this philosophical concept of absurdism with the story, with literature effectively.
Speaker: And he does it through a character called Mersot.
Speaker: Now, Mersot,
Speaker: is, I mean, if absurdism was a person, so would be absurdism.
Speaker: So he doesn't really show things like emotions.
Speaker: He's very socially awkward.
Speaker: He can't really engage in conversation as well.
Speaker: All of these things come very difficult to him and he doesn't understand anything like societal norms or expectations.
Speaker: Now, Mersot, the reason for why he has this is quite a simple French phrase which Camus loves to repeat throughout the novel, and that is, literally, it means nothing.
Speaker: So that sort of goes back to the idea of meaninglessness and absurdism, because for Mersot, Camus is basically saying, what's the point in following
Speaker: societal norms and well in this case as it is in the book showing emotion at your mother's funeral merceau sees no advantage to himself in doing that similarly merceau hates conversations because i think in his eyes he sees no point in conversation there's no meaning for him really yeah yeah i agree i mean there's also i'm trying to find it here in the book without success unfortunately but
Speaker: There's a scene when I think his girlfriend asks, is he going to marry her?
Speaker: He's just like, whatever.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: If you want.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, he really does.
Speaker: He's sort of, he's very sort of laissez-faire, you could say.
Speaker: He just doesn't put his mind.
Speaker: It means nothing to many of these sort of constructed societal things.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: So I think that's, again, not showing emotion in his mother's funeral.
Speaker: That's a very big one.
Speaker: He was more concerned about the fact that he was all in the room.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: But then also, you know,
Speaker: being asked, are you going to marry me?
Speaker: And the reply being, I mean, if you want, whatever, is also, I think, and we can see this at the end of the book as well, when he shoots the Arab.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: He just doesn't really care.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But then I think there is a bit of a switch towards the end of the book, John.
Speaker: And the fact that he does begin to kind of reminisce on his memories a little bit.
Speaker: But yeah, what do you think?
Speaker: Do you think people should follow up so this one?
Speaker: I think it's very difficult because I think people always sort of search for meaning in life.
Speaker: And I think you can construct a meaning, but whether there's an objective meaning, it's sort of very difficult to decipher whether there really is.
Speaker: And I mean, I don't think the universe is necessarily irrational.
Speaker: However, I do think there are societal norms which you should follow.
Speaker: Yes, they may be meaningless to follow them, but societal norms sort of equate to respect.
Speaker: And if you're like Merso and you say, no, I'm not going to talk to people or show any emotion, people think you're quite weird.
Speaker: And he ends up with consequences like Merso had in which he was sent to prison effectively because his absurdist philosophy made people just sort of totally lose any sort of sense of belief or truthfulness in him.
Speaker: So I think it's perhaps a bit of an extreme personal philosophy to have.
Speaker: It does have reason.
Speaker: like why do we do all these things when there really isn't much meaning in doing it?
Speaker: But then I think it's probably a matter of just respect.
Speaker: What do you think about absurdism, Dayan?
Speaker: Are you an absurdist?
Speaker: No, no.
Speaker: But I did kind of try it for a while.
Speaker: It doesn't really work.
Speaker: I think also another big book from Camus on this is The Myth of Sisyphus.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: very important one, Frank.
Speaker: I think that's really his piece of philosophy.
Speaker: I have it somewhere here, actually.
Speaker: Oh, yes.
Speaker: This sort of, I don't know, 100-page book.
Speaker: But in the myth of Sisyphus, there's the very famous phrase, one must imagine Sisyphus happy.
Speaker: So, Camus basically wants to say that although Sisyphus rolls the boulder up the hill every day without success,
Speaker: he's still happy because he's constantly trying to push himself and evolve.
Speaker: And that is another one of his main ideas here is that
Speaker: Although we don't have meaning, just living is a joy in itself.
Speaker: That's what Camus is actually trying to say, even though with all the hardships of life, since this is an example of him having to carry a boulder up a hill infinitely, life is still enjoyable.
Speaker: I think, I mean, we can delve into the character of Camus as well as why he believed these things.
Speaker: He had numerous affairs with more women than I can count.
Speaker: Almost pushed his wife to suicide because of it.
Speaker: was involved with Hollywood actresses, everyone that was a woman.
Speaker: And I think for him as an individual, he kind of just saw the joy in living.
Speaker: You know, he was, especially at his time, you know, he wrote in the underground movement in Paris under the German occupation in the Second World War.
Speaker: So it was a very tough time.
Speaker: I think he obviously got affected by that quite a lot, having to sort of deal with the fact that the Nazis have marched into Paris and that his life has changed.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And he came up with this theory of absurdism and kind of replaced all the monotony that, you know, some people appreciate in life with constant and constant and constant pleasure and excitement.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that's his thesis, is that we shouldn't just...
Speaker: We just have fun.
Speaker: If we only live once, we might as well have fun.
Speaker: Just going back to, as you said, the myth of Sisyphus, and for any listeners who don't know what that is, that's about this sort of ancient tale of Greek mythology around someone called, and actually a king called Sisyphus.
Speaker: He sort of has to push this boulder up a mountain or hill every single day.
Speaker: And that is something that I think really does resonate with most people when you think of our lives.
Speaker: You know, we go to school every day.
Speaker: It's the same routine.
Speaker: Do we enjoy it?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: But would we do it if we didn't have to?
Speaker: Probably not.
Speaker: And, you know, it's about the monotony of everything of everyday life doing the exact same thing, pushing this boulder uphill to that peak where
Speaker: you don't have it.
Speaker: Again, you push the boulder down the other side of the hill and you're free.
Speaker: However, then you've got another challenge.
Speaker: I mean, for young people, that's sort of reflecting how when you finish GCSE exams, you've pushed that boulder up the hill, but then you're back down at the bottom of another boulder to push up.
Speaker: And that sort of does reflect how we are sort of stuck in this monotonous cycle of everyday existence.
Speaker: However, though, Dan, I think the key thing is what do you make of this cycle of everyday existence of doing the same thing?
Speaker: Because you can find joy in it.
Speaker: You can think about, oh, it's a boring chore every day, just doing the exact same thing.
Speaker: Or you can find enjoyment and pleasure amongst the tools.
Speaker: Yeah, I 100% agree with you there.
Speaker: I think that is really the key in understanding Camus is sort of away from his absurdist belief that meaning is inherent.
Speaker: He also comes up with
Speaker: the sort of more subtle idea that although, you know, because life, there's a lot of pain, you know, humans feel, whether that be emotional, physical, depending on people's job situation, life is very difficult.
Speaker: And Camus just says, well, it doesn't have to be if you don't care about it.
Speaker: It doesn't affect you.
Speaker: So it's a bit of a coping mechanism, I think.
Speaker: In a way, like stoicism, but a bit different to stoicism.
Speaker: Well, shall we now move on to existentialism?
Speaker: So, yes.
Speaker: I mean, why don't you explain existentialism first?
Speaker: Because it's not like absurdism, but you can sort of group them in the same sort of field-ish.
Speaker: Yeah, so Absurdism is by, is an obsession, by this guy Jean-Paul Sartre.
Speaker: And this is one of the main books about existentialism, nausea.
Speaker: And basically Sartre also comes up with the fact that the universe is inherently meaningless.
Speaker: However, different to Camus, he does believe that we can create our own meaning.
Speaker: So for example, if my meaning, if I decide that I want to go study this at this university,
Speaker: I've created meaning.
Speaker: Camus would disagree and say that's just an illusion.
Speaker: But Saadz and Camus were friends initially, very good friends.
Speaker: And then it kind of all went down here after Russia.
Speaker: Camus was an anarchist.
Speaker: Saadz was a communist.
Speaker: So Saadz would continue to deny the existence of labor camps in the Soviet Union.
Speaker: Camus basically thought he was an idiot and they stopped being friends.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I do recommend this book.
Speaker: This is the guy right here.
Speaker: I do recommend this book to everyone.
Speaker: I think it's, in my opinion, one of the most stimulating books I've read.
Speaker: However, I do have to give a caveat.
Speaker: Do not read too much at once.
Speaker: Because it can get very dark very easily.
Speaker: And it's just not a very pleasant experience to be reading about.
Speaker: Okay, I just come up on, you know... It's basically in the form of a journal.
Speaker: So, the protagonist...
Speaker: He's struggling with his existence.
Speaker: He's got no one to live for, nothing to live for.
Speaker: And this is his genre, in a way.
Speaker: So you can see sometimes with days like Wednesday.
Speaker: And all it says is, I must not be frightened.
Speaker: Or, yeah.
Speaker: There's another day.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Thursday, there was nothing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Existed.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So Sartre really does grapple, I think, with the idea of existence.
Speaker: a bit more than Camus, in a more pessimistic way than Camus.
Speaker: Because Camus is all very, you know, sunshine and rainbows.
Speaker: There's no meaning, but who cares?
Speaker: Sartre, on the other hand, is like, there's no meaning, but we can do and we have to do something about it or we'll go insane and mortally depressed, just like this guy in this book.
Speaker: What do you think, John?
Speaker: So, yeah, I think similarly, I think existentialism, it's about the idea that perhaps there's no definite meaning in the world.
Speaker: However, it's up to us to find our own meaning.
Speaker: And some other key ideas, I think, in existentialism are free will.
Speaker: There's an emphasis on that and on sort of individualism and individual responsibility.
Speaker: And it's all sort of built up to sort of finding purpose and meaning in your own life.
Speaker: Whereas, as you said, Camus is just quite resolute in his belief that there is no meaning in this world and everything you do isn't really worth it because you're getting nothing out of it.
Speaker: Yes, so perhaps moving on to a big question linked to existentialism.
Speaker: Do you think there is any meaning in life, Dayan?
Speaker: Or do you think you just find that meaning yourself?
Speaker: I think it's a very hard question for me because I do quite heavily align with existentialist philosophy.
Speaker: More than to anything else, I think, really.
Speaker: I'm a mix between existentialism and stoicism.
Speaker: But existentialism, for me, what brings out a very big truth is that inherently, if we were alone on the planet, we're no one else and we're nothing to do, life would have no meaning.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think meaning is given by the people around you.
Speaker: and what you can do for them.
Speaker: So is there an objective meaning?
Speaker: Kind of, I think.
Speaker: I think
Speaker: The objective meaning maybe might be helping others and being a good citizen.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But I think that everyone has to find that for themselves.
Speaker: Because people help people in different ways.
Speaker: If you're a doctor, you help people in different ways compared to being someone who cleans the streets or someone who is a banker.
Speaker: Everyone helps in their own way, generally.
Speaker: But yeah, I do think it does have a very big place for me, existentialism.
Speaker: I think it's very important because there are some moments where you look at the world and you're like, well, what is going on?
Speaker: And for me, sort of the absurdist naivete doesn't really count me that much.
Speaker: What do you think, John?
Speaker: Yeah, I definitely agree with you of how, and it's quite a well-known idea, I think, that meaning just comes from those around you and from other people.
Speaker: I think the best example is basically legacy.
Speaker: So a lot of people say the meaning of their life, their motivation to do well is legacy.
Speaker: However, legacy only comes from people around you being able to remember you, basically.
Speaker: Similarly with people who say, oh, my meaning of my life is...
Speaker: to provide for my family, kids, give them the best possible future.
Speaker: And that's because of love, simply again because of the people around you.
Speaker: So I think meaning, as you said, it's only built when you've got a network of people around you.
Speaker: However, if you perhaps feel really alone, then you may say, well, my life has no meaning.
Speaker: If you're an isolated person, you wouldn't see meaning in your life.
Speaker: Saying that you may see meaning in your life
Speaker: in a sort of different way, perhaps, in a way of personal enjoyment, of fulfilling yourself personally.
Speaker: However, I think that's something that's very difficult to do in an isolated existence.
Speaker: So I do really think, as you said, actually going back to it.
Speaker: legacy, love, these all common things which people say is the meaning of life, they are all encompassed by the idea that it's other people that make the meaning of living.
Speaker: I'd also like to draw the attention to one of the most famous phrases by Sartre in his book, Being a Nothingness,
Speaker: which is that existence precedes essence.
Speaker: So what does this mean?
Speaker: Basically, he means that first you exist and then you create your own meaning and you have an essence.
Speaker: You have something you live for.
Speaker: But you have to exist first.
Speaker: So Sartre believes that for the fetus in the womb, there's no meaning.
Speaker: However, as the fetus gets born and you begin to mature, then you can only find meaning.
Speaker: So I think that's a very interesting, actually, point because
Speaker: Would you count someone who's like three, four months old?
Speaker: Do they have a meaning?
Speaker: Oh, yes.
Speaker: That is a good question.
Speaker: I'd argue they do.
Speaker: I'd argue they do.
Speaker: I don't think they do for themselves.
Speaker: I think they did have a meaning because of other people.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And also you get a worrying thing because a three, four month year old is still a human.
Speaker: So if you say they don't have a meaning, then you sort of slightly can contradict yourself saying humans have a meaning because you're saying a large part of humanity doesn't have a meaning.
Speaker: No, yes.
Speaker: But I think this is a question, though, that is very much seen in the medical field of today.
Speaker: You'll know, Dan, as an aspiring doctor, but it's sort of like the meaning of, let's say, an embryo.
Speaker: Or it's a commonly used debate in, let's say, abortion and things like that.
Speaker: Like, should we do such actions because there is meaning in life and we're taking away that meaning from someone else?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, yeah, I think that's a very interesting point.
Speaker: And I'm kind of stuck in a way because by Sartre's definition...
Speaker: Technically yes, technically no.
Speaker: But I do think that Sartre would have agreed with abortion because he's a very big believer in free will.
Speaker: That's another big one actually.
Speaker: Existentialists believe in a huge amount of free will.
Speaker: Because, you know, without free will you can't make your own destinies, you know, so to send your own meaning.
Speaker: But another one is like, life is a bane on my existence and I am absolutely free.
Speaker: sort of almost says that being free is actually a very good thing.
Speaker: And I do see his point here because when you are free, you've got more to think about.
Speaker: You've got more problems.
Speaker: I'm just going to make a caveat here.
Speaker: I'm not justifying for slavery or anything else.
Speaker: I don't want to be misquoted.
Speaker: But there is definitely, with more freedoms you have, so financial freedoms, with the more freedom you have,
Speaker: The more choices you have and then the more, you know, the more difficult things.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: For example, if you are, uh, in an Islamic country, for example, you're not allowed to drink alcohol.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: You can't buy it.
Speaker: You know, you can't make that decision.
Speaker: Am I going to buy this, which is going to damage my health, but it's going to make me feel good for like two hours.
Speaker: However, if you are in a Western country, you can make that decision, which, you know, does have its own benefits of making that decision, but it also has its own negatives because
Speaker: you are struggling in a way with some decisions where like, well, this isn't really good for me, but I think that's where existentialism is.
Speaker: It's just at the middle border of those tough decisions.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What do you think, John?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And as you said, it sort of rests on that sort of cornerstone of free will.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: However, when you said the more, let's say, freedom you have, the more choices you have to make, some would say, though, that maybe they're just better choices to make.
Speaker: As in, it's like when people say of the first world problems, having to choose between two nice things.
Speaker: At the end of the day, it's choices that I think you'd rather want to have the ability to make than not.
Speaker: Of course, of course.
Speaker: So for that, I think we can conclude Season 2, Episode 11 of the Debasable Discussions podcast.
Speaker: I hope you have enjoyed the discussion today about absurdism and existentialism.
Speaker: I would also definitely encourage you to read the works of Albert Camus and Sartre.
Speaker: Yeah, thank you very much.
Speaker: And hopefully you enjoyed the episode.
Speaker: If you did, do please leave us a comment and a five star review.
Speaker: If you do not follow the podcast already, do follow the podcast.
Speaker: And I look forward to seeing you next week with another philosophy related episode with a special guest.
Speaker: Thank you very much and see you next week.
