Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
S4.E6 - Psychology of Money - Ch. 17-18
55 Plays4 months ago
Welcome back to another episode of the Books Brothers Podcast! Listen as Thomas leads our discussion of chapters 17-18 from The Psychology of Money: Timeless Lessons on Wealth, Greed, and Happiness by Morgan Housel.
- Chapter 17: “The Seduction of Pessimism” (0:51 - 18:43)
Do you become lured into pessimism more than you should? Why are we prone to be like this? (0:51 - 8:10)
How has the author’s reflections on optimism and historical growth of financial markets impacted how you view finances through an optimistic or pessimistic lens? (8:11 - 18:43)
- Chapter 18: “When You’ll Believe Anything” - (18:44 - 32:04)
Can any of you admit to wanting to believe something ludicrous about how the world works or your financial situation, but later come to a realization that you were kidding yourself? (18:44 - 28:49)
On the concept of “control”, what are examples of finances that you don’t fully understand but pretend to in order to have some semblance of peace? Conversely, are there financial matters you’ve come to terms with not having control over? (28:50 - 32:04)
Next week we’ll discuss chapters 19 - Postscript (pages 203 - 238).
You can buy the book on Amazon by clicking here.
You can also borrow it at your local library. Don’t have a library card, or unsure where your local library is? Search on Google Maps, or find your local library by clicking here.
Follow us on Instagram @booksbrotherspodcast
Connect with us at [email protected]
Please subscribe and give us a review! We would really appreciate it.
See you next week! Until then - read, reflect, and connect.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to The Books Brothers
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome back to the Books Brothers podcast where we are stoked AF about books. I'm Thomas. I'm Garrett. I'm Fluz. I'm Staley. And I'm Rob. Are you ready to get jazzed with us? Absolutely bamboozled because this episode is going to be bonkers.
Benefits of Reading Together
00:00:27
Speaker
Seriously, though, reading together does keep us in touch, provides the structure and time needed to connect with each other by sharing our experiences and reflecting on how these topics relate to our lives.
Exploring 'The Psychology of Money' Chapters 17 & 18
00:00:39
Speaker
Today, we continue discussing the psychology of money, timeless lessons on wealth, greed, and happiness by Morgan Hassell. We are going over chapters 17 and 18 today. Chapter 17, let's talk about that it is called the seduction of pessimism. And just think about this, the Wall Street Journal, the most prestigious financial newspaper in the world, published an article at the end of 2008 where the author claimed that the US would split up into six pieces because of the financial crisis. Also, the Wright brothers largely figured out flight, but nobody cared for four years after they could fly because nobody actually believed such amazing news could be true.
00:01:23
Speaker
This speaks to the tendency we have to be skeptical about any great news and to be drawn to bad news and believe it.
Pessimism: Protection or Problem?
00:01:34
Speaker
And this one really hits home for me personally because I have been lured time and time again into being more pessimistic than I probably should be in my adult life. Why do I do this? I feel like it makes me feel like maybe I'm playing it smarter than most people because when they get blindsided by some bad thing that happens, I'll be the one who knew all along things wouldn't turn out to be all that great. It gives me hope also that I'll be able to tell those dummies, oh, I told you so someday. It lowers my expectations about what could happen. Also guaranteeing I might turn out pleasantly surprised instead of let down by a bad outcome.
00:02:15
Speaker
protecting me from disappointment. And then in a deeper sense, I think it speaks to doubts about the world I have that are probably pretty common among us all, that having trust in the system will work for you instead of it being out to get you. Anyway, what do you guys think about pessimism in your own life? Do you guys feel like you get lured into being more pessimistic than you should? What are the sources of pessimism? What is your favorite flavor of pessimism? For sure i think it's it's a pessimism is sexy it's easy to get drawn in and. You must have to like fight to be more optimistic to be mindful to be optimistic. That's why news is all driven towards pessimism i think it's in our it can be in our nature to be that way i think it's out of preservation right to preserve you know to be protected and assume the worst.
00:03:09
Speaker
I feel like that's like a evolutionary thing that can probably not serve us very well now. Yeah, pessimism used to be great, right? When every bad thing that could happen might kill you, but now it's like, it's not really that many normal events that are an imminent threat to our lives or livelihoods.
The Evolutionary Roots of Pessimism
00:03:28
Speaker
I thought a lot about scarcity brain in this chapter. He on page 181 says when directly compared or weighted against each other, losses loom larger than gains. This asymmetry between the power of positive negative expectations or experiences has an evolutionary history.
00:03:45
Speaker
Organisms that treat threats as more urgent than opportunities have better chance to survive and reproduce So, I mean, I think it really tied in well with that where pessimism does play us well. It discourages us from risk-taking. It keeps us safe. I think my, probably my latest theory where I feel like I experienced a lot of pessimism, I know you kind of asked, generally, obviously we're talking about finances, but I feel like the area I experienced the most is in the topic of politics. I think it's really hard for me not to think negatively of anyone who's
00:04:18
Speaker
in a political position and just assume that there's character issues as well as corruption. And I think that's definitely- You can't all be Teddy Roosevelt, can they? Can't all be Teddy. But I think that's obviously a very kind of a popular trend right now where, you know, we're very anti to politics. But again, it's, I think it comes back to two it's easier to complain than it is to speak positively. And everybody loves to have, a you know, Misery loves company, right? So everybody complaining loves to have friends that also like to complain. Yeah.
00:04:53
Speaker
Just thinking about me, like even at work, we we have daily metrics and then we review like monthly or biweekly metrics with carriers. And we go through a scorecard, which is basically a series of a dozen or so metrics. And the structure is pretty much to talk about the misses. And it's really not to talk about the
Negativity Bias in Politics and Workplaces
00:05:24
Speaker
positives. And so we'll spend the whole time talking about the things that went wrong, obviously, because we're, you know, we have a continuous improvement mindset, we want to focus on the things that we can mainly control and the behaviors that can lead to success. But it's, it's funny that we'll
00:05:45
Speaker
I don't know. We always focus on the things that go wrong rather than the things that go right. And so I think it's, it's important too, to focus on the things that are going right because yeah, we focus on the down more than we focus on the up. I wrote down on page 184 progress happens too slowly setbacks too quick. It's just, we're so quick to focus on the things that are going wrong. Rob, as you were sharing your story about work, I had a flashback to a moment where I was sitting with my supervisor and we were going through metrics of ah a month or a couple months or something like that. And he was like, that's good, that's good, that's good. Okay, and this number, let's talk about this. And then we proceeded to have a lengthy conversation about a metric that wasn't good. And so it's funny how quickly we bypass the positives.
00:06:37
Speaker
Yeah, there's a lot of corporate examples you could use where it's kind of counterintuitive. Like if you focused on what you do best, you'd actually outperform to such an extent that you wouldn't really need to worry about focusing on a couple lagging metrics, but we're humans. So we love to focus on the things that aren't amazing all the time. But I think you guys are right. If we, if we focused on our strengths, right. And just refining those and making those perfect. I think we get a lot further than you know spending all of our time focusing on the one or two duds or bad performers or whatever you want to call them. mean If you think about it from like a process standpoint, you could say it's just as much work to do something than to follow steps than maybe it is to not follow steps, right? so
00:07:28
Speaker
To do something requires a lot of steps of doing, but also to not do something requires a lot of steps of not doing. It's like, I don't know. I see what you're saying. There are probably it's at greater risk that something could go wrong, but when you do everything to get it right, it's like, man, acknowledge like you're saying, Thomas, acknowledging that because of all the steps that someone took to get something right. Like that deserves more praise. So I'm just reflecting on myself as a coach, as a manager of just trying to focus more on things that are going right because that took a lot of effort too. Yeah. Let me bring this
Optimism in Finance: Naivety or Necessity?
00:08:09
Speaker
kind of back to the book. So basically what chapter 17 sums up is that when people hear optimistic news or some sort of a optimistic projection, they see it as kind of a cringy sales pitch.
00:08:24
Speaker
And they don't see it as a reality a lot of times because that would be naive. But pessimism often when you hear it as a human, you feel like that sounds like somebody who's trying to help you avoid ah ah something that could cause an issue in your life or a negative return or whatever. One historian was quoted in the book saying, for reasons I have never understood, people like to hear that the world is going to hell. And I think that's totally accurate. However, the author mentions when it comes to our finances and investing, letting the optimistic viewpoint guide our actions is the best bet for most people, since the world tends to get better for most people over time.
00:09:12
Speaker
By optimistic, the author doesn't mean being irrationally hopeful. He means that the odds of a good outcome are in your favor over a certain time horizon. So again, he mentions we pay a lot of attention to negative viewpoints because something bad happening tends to affect everyone when it comes to money. Markets are interconnected with things we all interact with and rely on. So there's a sense of not having control in that, in that way. pessimists often extrapolate present trends without counting for how markets tend to adapt to something that's going wrong, like the oil price being too high or a certain skyrocketing demand not ever being met by production. However, he states that technology continues to allow us to improve
00:10:06
Speaker
and in ways that are often exponential technology. I mean, you you can just look like at computer chips and processing speeds, for example. you know if If you would have projected out a linear curve of how good we can make computers in the 1960s, it would be like 1% of what it actually ended up being today, or or less probably. And lastly, things in improve much slower than they decline. So it's really easy to notice so notice small negative events rather than the massive number of things that are constantly improving at a slow rate. Growth relies on compounding over time, while destruction and loss of trust can happen in an instant.
00:10:48
Speaker
So he mentioned that if you believe every person on average wakes up every day and works towards improving themselves around the world, you should be optimistic about the future. You guys feel that way? How does your answer kind of affect the way you see the world or maybe change the way you've thought about things? I'll answer this question with Google trend report that I receive every day. That's part of my job. I would say it's very easy for me to view things pessimistically negatively.
00:11:23
Speaker
on on that side of the question, Thomas. And I know that sounds bad, but this Google Trends report is run by a person somewhere that sends out an email, right, who works for Google. And this person picks a different topic to focus on for Trends for that day. Today happened to be Workplace Trends. Here are some of the top trending topics. Lazy Girl Job or the top is a top trending topic with quiet quitting Quiet vacationing is the top trending search for millennials. And stealth PTO is a breakout search. Absenteeism reached an all-time high. Coffee badging is a breakout search. So I read these things and it reinforces my pessimistic view. But then I read some other things. so How to change your company culture. Search interest is currently at an all-time high in the US.
00:12:18
Speaker
Occupational burnout is a top trending topic. Burnout coaching is a breakout search. Search interest for quitting toxic work environment is up 295%. And then top trending, how to improve, how to improve safety culture, how to improve workplace morale, how to improve social awareness. So there's more nuance. Are people really lazy? Am I really like, do is my pessimism an accurate view of people? or our work culture is really that bad and I'm in a really good work culture.
00:12:52
Speaker
that maybe people are just like, you know, I don't like this job. I have poor managers, poor work culture. So how can I stealth take PTO without taking PTO? You know, things that aren't good, I'm not approving, but there's more nuance. So it's probably not as pessimistic as I view it is my answer. Although my eyes naturally gravitate to those trend bullet points. I'm like, see, I knew it. But then I'm like, wait a minute, if I'm being fair, Is there a correlation here? People want to quit because they don't like where they work. Is the guy who sends those out biased because he wants you to click on his email to see all the negativity because he knows you will instead of the positive ones? a ah Possibly. yeah the The person who sent it out today was Jenna Lee, lead Google Trends analyst with Daniel Dobrich. Shout out to Jenna Lee. Find me one of them lazy girl jobs.
00:13:50
Speaker
but Yeah, it's it's definitely subjective what they talk about. Right. So yesterday was pride and the day before was baby names. So it's like some of it's okay. It's June. So that makes sense. But then baby names, that's random. You know, so immigration was made 20. It's kind of is very subjective what they focus on. You know, the top trending male baby name in Florida is Gator right now.
00:14:21
Speaker
Yeah. look up Are you serious? No, but you almost believe me, didn't you? Hey, there's a, that would be a piece of good news. I would see that as great news. That's really funny. I mean, honestly though, how many, how many of you guys have actually known people that you could look back on in life and been like, Oh yeah, he definitely wakes up every day trying to just make this place worse. Nobody does that. And if they do, i think that's a good point they're kind of a psycho that ends up somewhere else. you know I agree with you, Thomas, but but but my pessimism is too strong. and Well, no, I lean towards pessimism.
00:15:00
Speaker
i just think some people try to take shortcuts and they don't want to do things they don't want to do challenging things hard things and i don't know i don't think that people are intentionally trying to make life more difficult than others. But I do think that there's definitely a lot of people who they're trying to make life as convenient for themselves as they can. I definitely agree. Yeah, I think there's character traits involved with that. There's the pride component, the selfish component, right? Where it's like, they might not try to be making it hard on everybody, but due to their own selfishness, they're only looking out for themselves, which does have a negative ah effect on the team.
00:15:40
Speaker
I'm sure that we've all can think of someone that we've worked with like that, where you get to the point where you're, you're in your mind. You're like, why are you thinking this way? Why, why can't you put someone else in front of you? As a great Michael Scott once said, why are you the way that you are? That had to be to Toby. Yeah, he a definitely to Toby or guy. HR is just his job, man, he can't help it. But I have to play devil's advocate because for the last 50 years, one person has been able to continue to do more and more work. So like, it might have taken 10 people to do the same amount of work that it takes one person who's really good at their job and has all the technology we have today from like a production
00:16:31
Speaker
And value standpoint, Thomas, I'll just say your personality, the world needs more Thomas's though, because you in general are an optimistic, believe the best about people person. And I've always appreciated that about you, but I haven't. No, no, I'm just giving you, ah I'm just giving you a compliment in general. I'm not making a comment even related to the book. I just want to say. I've always noticed that about you. And I, I appreciate that about you. And I wish I was more like you in that regard. Well, this book will help, you know, ah do you guys want us to exit the lobby? so you guys
00:17:05
Speaker
I'll send you a kissy face emoji. No, I mean, that doesn't, that doesn't that doesn't mean my investment strategy has been guided by those beliefs. So that's the funny part, right? Oh, how fascinating. Are you talking about optimism, Thomas chapter 18? Yeah. We, well, after seven dr chapter, chapter 17 is pessimism. Optimism is a, I don't think that's a chapter. Let's take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.
00:17:40
Speaker
you've been in a car accident again. You need car insurance that truly understands your unique needs as an Asian American driver. Look no further. Asian American car insurance is here to provide you with the coverage and support you deserve. for I've tried other insurance companies, but Asian American car insurance gets me. They know the challenges we face on the road and offer tailored solutions. Our team of experts is fluent in your language, just English and culture, making it easier to get the help you need when you need it. I feel valued and respected as a customer. They even sent me a bag of rice when I signed up. Accidents happen, but with Asian American car insurance, you're in good hands that use chopsticks. We'll guide you through the process. ensuring you receive the support and compensation you deserve. Fortune cookie included. Protect your loved ones and your vehicle with the insurance that understands you. Choose Asian American car insurance today. The insurance that will have you smiling like those little Buddha statues.
00:18:42
Speaker
And now back to the show.
Storytelling and Perception in Finance
00:18:44
Speaker
So chapter 18 is titled When You'll Believe Anything. Stories are more powerful than statistics. Have you ever wanted something to be so true you convinced yourself it was? This chapter hits on how we were drawn to convince ourselves of unlikely things when the stakes are high just because we have so much hope that they'll happen. The author mentions the following. 80% of active mutual funds where people are actively changing around the investments underperform their indexes. And these funds have typically been in business a long time. They keep selling the story and stay alive rather than actually giving the returns that just an index would give.
00:19:25
Speaker
and people keep buying it. The 2008 financial crisis was largely due to fallout caused by a change in narrative about housing prices rather than tangible economic damage such as a natural disaster or a war. Things fell apart when we collectively started telling ourselves a different story that housing prices won't go up forever. So can any of you guys admit to wanting to believe something sort of ludicrous about your money situation or how the world works to kind of come to a realization that you were hitting yourself? Insurance. Oh man. Health insurance or just like car insurance or like literally any insurance.
00:20:06
Speaker
Um, any car insurance. I'm like, man, why are we paying this? I'm a great driver. And sure enough in January, someone pulled out in front of me and I got a check from Geico literally the next day for the amount that I paid for the car four years ago. It was incredible. It's like, man, that was a ludicrous thought. I should always pay for insurance. Even with a house, you know, it's, we were talking about, you know, Rob's getting the house. There was a lot of sticker shock for me getting a house. And I'm like, man, are there, what are the odds of our house would really get flattened by a tornado? What really are the odds? You do live in Oklahoma. Is that where they film? Twister? Twisters. Yes. Coming out in in July. Oh, the that was about the first one.
00:20:55
Speaker
Yeah. The second one. Yeah. Oh yeah. Don't get ready for the second one. Glen Powell, baby. Are your people in it? Um, yeah, they filmed it in Oklahoma. I'll give you a twister. Your people. What do you mean your people? To bring it back, no, I'll send you guys some pictures, but in all seriousness, my mother-in-law in a suburb outside of Tulsa, her small town, like Brooks' hometown was in a tornado, and um we went to her best friend's house, and these massive oak trees, these massive walnut trees, completely uprooted. It was a miracle the house was intact. I mean, it was surreal. There was a trampoline.
00:21:35
Speaker
40 feet up in the air, stuck in a tree. who It was unreal. ah even And my mother-in-law was saying her neighbors were lamenting. They're like, I don't have housing. and I don't have homeowners insurance. I never thought this would happen. They don't have insurance. The mortgage company won't even give you a loan without insurance. I don't know, Rob. I'm just saying you can get away with not having car insurance. I'm sure people have found ways to get away with not having. I don't know. I'm just telling you the stories that I heard. Yeah, maybe that maybe it was back then. I don't know. But I think those are some ludicrous thoughts because when I look at my budget, I'm like, good grief. We are spending a lot of money on insurance. We have a disability insurance policy for my wife. Well, she's a doctor if she gets injured or has a life changing, debilitating injury.
00:22:27
Speaker
we want to be able to somehow still make her income, right? So it feels ludicrous when you're paying it out every month, but then a tornado hits or someone pulls out in front of you and totals your car and you're really glad that you didn't listen to those emotional thoughts of, I don't really need to pay for insurance. Same with like FSA, FSA account. It's all taken it all out right and right away to prevent taxes and all that. It's a good way to do it. You're saying that's ludicrous? ludicrous to not do it. Oh, yeah. yeah Or yeah, or like contribute a a matching contribution to your 401k or something like that. I was talking a little more about the ah type of stuff that was like, you know, for me, when I got out of college, I had a certain view of how my career maybe would be sort of easier to navigate than it actually was.
00:23:21
Speaker
And that was, that was kind of a ludicrous assumption that caused me to question a lot of things when I could have just better grip on the reality of what was going to happen. You know, did you guys enjoy the, like, start of this chapter? He was basically talking about like aliens hovering over the world. The world really looks like the same. I mean, yeah, the aliens can see that the world has changed some, but The difference between then and later is like, well, to the alien up above, it looks the same, virtually the same, but it's the world's in completely different states because of emotion. But then I thought it was super cool about how they were talking about how NASA's forecasting, like they forecasted
00:24:15
Speaker
I don't know. I can't remember when the, they were going to pass by the moon or something like 12 years prior and they had done it down to like 99.99% or something. And it was like the equivalent of going from New York to Los Angeles and being like two seconds off or something like that. Like that wasn't the moon. It was Pluto. Okay, Pluto, RIP, not a planet anymore. But it's just crazy that NASA is so good at forecasting something like that. It's just the emotion component of it, where it's like, it gets in the way of so many things. And and one of the big takeaways is like, the more you want something, the more you'll believe it to be true. Yeah, like even my experience with like, some of the meme stocks, Thomas, it's like,
00:25:07
Speaker
Do you think that it can go to the moon? You're literally going to read every article and convince yourself that these, because these four people said it could go to $500, it's going to go to it. Oh, it's like the casino man. It's like, uh, when you are on your last couple chips and you're just like, man, I know I can come back. I know I can just win this hand and get back to where I was. it's it's do You just want to double down because you want to believe it so bad. Even though the odds are still the same as they were when you lost your first 10 chips. But then you get to the golden nugget and it's your last time playing. okay right This is literally your last hand.
00:25:52
Speaker
And then it hit a, the number that you've been chasing all weekend long. We can't all be Robert. No, I care. Rub it in. that That's right. That's what happened. That is what happened. I was therem just commemorating that awesome experience, that awesome moment. I actually had shared this story several times from sidetracking, but it has to do with gambling. with the fraternity going to Buffalo Run Casino in Miami. Because even though Missouri and Oklahoma are neighboring states, I feel like very few people are from Missouri who live in Oklahoma City and vice versa. But we're only a couple hours away. And I share, oh yeah, I used to, in college, go to Oklahoma. And do you all remember this one time there was one guy who lied about being a legacy?
00:26:47
Speaker
And he was gambling. He was on blackjack and apparently he lost and he loses and like double fists pounds the table. And it's just like and like races off to the ATM and withdraws more money. And we were like, uh, uh, let's give, let's give him a bid. let's give yeah He wants to be the guy to tell him that the legacy is not going to get a bid. He looks like he can hang.
00:27:18
Speaker
He was just so awkward and weird. And then he did that and it was like, okay, like someone's got to tell his legacy, older brother, cousin, whoever. And then we found out he was lying about it, but it was like, well it was so what a guy. I don't know if I would, I don't know if I was next to him for that one. I don't remember seeing that. Pretty sure I turned my $5 voucher into $20 and cashed out. I thought I was rich. The Buffalo Run casino trips is always like one of the four times that I tried some of Rob's dip and threw up or something like that. those yeah It's like every year it was like my that was like my tradition is just let's see if tobacco works with me again and it never does.
00:28:11
Speaker
That was me at AP's farm or something. yeah Yeah. You want to dabble. You want to be a country boy when you're going to the casino in Oklahoma and then you you realize you're just a city slicker, man. It still reminds me of the time that we were we were out camping and we had convinced Rob that we had brought dip and it was just a beef jerky camp.
00:28:37
Speaker
It was, it was dark outside, but we like passed it around to everyone. So similar to how we're all running our own race and playing our own game when it comes to investing, as mentioned in chapter 16, we all have an incomplete view of the world and we make things up to fill in the gaps in our own understanding.
Imagination vs. Reality in Financial Decisions
00:29:04
Speaker
This ability to use our imagination about the world gives us the illusion that the world makes sense. And we need to make the world make sense because it's scary when things are unpredictable and out of our control. Anybody think of anything that you pretend to understand so that you kind of feel better about it and you accept, you know, maybe it's in your control.
00:29:26
Speaker
On the other side, have you accepted some stuff that you used to do that about? But have you accepted that now? Yeah, it's definitely not in your control. And you've made peace with that. When we're kids, we all love to pretend we know how the world works. I don't know. Yeah, I really don't have a specific answer, Thomas, but that I feel like shows my ignorance of I just feel like there are a lot of things where I think my way I view kind of the multitude of topic of personal finances well if i if I just do what like the majority is recommending, but I'll probably be fine. And I think that's, that's really is in a lot of ways, the approach that I take. I'm the opposite. I try to do the opposite of what everybody else does. but No, he doesn't try. He just ends up doing the opposite on accident.
00:30:22
Speaker
That's the Penske strategy, man. Penske Financial. What we do at Penske Financial, we take all the money out of your bank, we convert it to pennies, and then we currency exchange it over to the Venezuelan currency, which is like experiencing hyperinflation.
00:30:44
Speaker
There was partial truth to what I was saying. Like, I really do think of like, I've had thoughts of like, what is everybody doing? Okay, that's what everybody else is doing. Maybe I should... It's like the road west trail. Yeah, i see we I see what you mean. I see what you mean with that, that you know a lot of people are not being wise with their finances, and so you're you know taking that approach. i I agree, and I think in a lot of ways I would i would do that too, but I think when i come like with what I was mentioning, it's more like how I approach saving money. If people tell me that this is what most people are doing and should do, like, yeah, I'll do that. That makes sense. Decoupling, like taking this seriously, taking money and and those like stewarding wealth seriously, but decoupling your ego from it when you make decisions and not taking it so seriously that you're
00:31:36
Speaker
your hopes and dreams are tied up in it, right? And your soul is is affected by it. you know You almost have to look at it like, well, yeah, if something happens, that stinks, but it doesn't matter. It's okay. That's not what life's about. And you actually make better decisions that way too, according to the author, because you don't get caught up in these emotional driven decisions or fears or whatever.
Conclusion and Engagement Call
00:32:04
Speaker
Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Books Brothers podcast. Join us next time as we discuss chapters 19 through the postscript or the end of the book, The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housl. If you haven't yet, there's still time to get the book so you can follow along with us.
00:32:20
Speaker
If you have enjoyed listening or benefited from a conversation, please subscribe, give us a review, and share with a friend that you'd like to connect with. Lastly, we'd love to hear your thoughts. You can reach us by email at connect at booksbrotherspodcast dot.com or on Instagram at booksbrotherspodcast. Until next week, read, reflect, and connect.