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Doctor Strange (2016)
276 Plays2 years ago
We covered Multiverse of Madness, we covered the made-for-TV film, now we finally cover 2016's Doctor Strange! Hugh McStay of Podcast-616 joins Perry to fill in this gap in the show's coverage. We discuss how underrated this film is but also some things that could have been done better.
Listen to Hugh on Podcast-616
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Transcript
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Reflections and Life Choices
00:01:59
Speaker
You have to return to your body. Now you don't have time. Time is relative. Your body hasn't even hit the floor yet. I've spent so many years peering through time. Looking at this exact moment. But I can't see past it. I've prevented countless terrible futures. And after each one there's always another. And they all lead here. But never further. You think this is where you die?
00:02:29
Speaker
You wonder what I see in your future? No. Yes. I never saw your future, only its possibilities. You have such a capacity for goodness. You always excelled. But not because you craved success, but because of your fear of failure. It's what made me a great doctor. It's precisely what kept you from greatness.
00:02:56
Speaker
Arrogance and fear still keep you from learning the simplest and most significant lesson of all. Which is? It's not about you. When you first came to me, you asked me how I was able to heal Jonathan Pangborn. I didn't.
00:03:20
Speaker
He channels dimensional energy directly into his own body. He uses magic to walk. Constantly. He had a choice. To return to his own life, or to serve something greater than himself. So I could add my hands back again. My old life. You could. And the world would be all the lesser for it.
00:03:47
Speaker
I've hated drawing power from the Dark Dimension. But as you well know, sometimes one must break the rules in order to serve the greater good. Mordo won't see it that way. Mordo's soul is rigid and unmovable, forged by the fires of his youth. He needs your flexibility, just as you need his strength. Only together do you stand a chance of stopping Dornama. I'm not ready. No one ever is.
00:04:19
Speaker
We don't get to choose our time. Death is what gives life meaning. To know your days are numbered, your time is short. You'd think after all this time I'd be ready. But look at me, stretching one moment out into a thousand, just so that I can watch the snow.
Podcast Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:04:51
Speaker
Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine. And if you're hearing some little music in the background, that's my son playing with his toys. So sorry about that. But today I'd like to welcome a new guest, the show and a fellow podcaster, and that is Hugh McStay. Hugh, how are you doing today? Hi, Perry. I'm not too bad. Thanks very much for having me on the show. Yeah. I've been looking forward to this all week.
00:05:14
Speaker
Yeah, I've been looking forward to it, too. In fact, fairly recently, we had we had your co host Ashley on to talk about Tank Girl. And I'm glad you you asked to come on today to talk about Dr. Strange. So I'm really excited about that. Because this is one of those. This has been one of those gaping holes in the MCU that we have not covered yet. So I'm really looking forward to diving into this movie. And I really want to fund rewatching it.
00:05:37
Speaker
When I was going through your back catalogue, you know, trying to pick films, I was actually surprised to see this one was still up for grabs. So this is a film I'm very keen to talk about, very near and dear to my heart, this one. That is a it's the funniest thing because we'll we'll get people who come on and and get you know, we've done, you know, over one hundred and fifty episodes now and people will come in the request the most obscure movies. And I'm looking at it and I'm just like, you know, no one has still no one to this day has requested The Dark Knight, which still blows my mind.
00:06:07
Speaker
That's crazy. You still don't cover the dark night. Oh my goodness. We can definitely talk about that afterwards. But anyway, why don't you tell the audience a little bit about yourself?
Guest Introduction and Interests
00:06:20
Speaker
Yeah, so as I said, my name is Hugh McStay. I'm a podcaster and writer from Glasgow, Scotland. For many years I was mostly just a writer. I do a lot of horror film reviews. My home is over at the London Horror Society when I'm one of the staff writers. Initially it was UK horror based, we were kind of focused on, as you imagine, with the London Horror Society. But
00:06:44
Speaker
we've branched out in recent years and we cover things from all over the globe. So a lot of my critical writings there. But I'm also a keen novelist and short story writer. I say novelist, I'm still working on my first novel. But I've heard about maybe 35, 40 short stories published over the last maybe five or six years. So I'm fairly prolific when it comes to that, just grinding them out. And I just love sitting down to write a good horror story. That's my total jam.
00:07:13
Speaker
and the last year or so of falling in love a little bit with podcasting. Myself and Dan Owen run a podcast called Vampire Videos where we look back through the last hundred years of vampire cinema, we do films and TV shows and we always have lots of really interesting guests from the world of horror and beyond for that. So that's good fun.
00:07:35
Speaker
And they're probably most relevant to your listeners, Perry. I'm the co-host of podcast 616 with the wonderful Ashley Thomas, who I believe you had on, you said quite recently covering Tank Girl. And we're kind of MCU specific, but again, we branch out every now and again. I think the most recent thing we've done was the Spider-Man movie, the Miles Morales. Yeah, Into the Spider-Verse. Into the Spider-Verse, thank you. In fact, yeah, I did listen to that one. I really enjoyed that one. Oh, wow.
00:08:04
Speaker
Definitely, definitely disagree with you guys on the kingpin design because I love that Bill Sankiewicz inspired look.
00:08:11
Speaker
Yeah, see, that's the thing, as you know, we discussed on the podcast. I'm not against the design, it just feels out of place within that portion of the movie. Because obviously the Daredevil comic that it's taken from is a wonderful comic and the art style on display there is magnificent. For me, the Kingpin design, it just kind of rocks up against the rest of the film in a way that didn't quite gel for me. But hey, all opinions are welcome.
00:08:35
Speaker
It's fair enough, yeah. We had covered that back in the first version of the show with my original co-host. And at first, he didn't like the Kingping design either. He had kind of the same reaction you did. And then when I reminded him about that Daredevil comic, he's like, oh, yeah, that's right. He's like, well, I changed my mind.
00:08:53
Speaker
No, like is it understandable? I just, like I said, for me, it was too much of a, I see if he'd come from one of the other multiverses that we experienced in the film, I could totally bought into that design. It's just, he looks so kind of contourish and so over the top compared to everyone else in that world that kind of took me out the film. But again, I would like to stress as I did on the, the forecast that, I mean, that was my, I think my only gripe I had about that movie. That is a proper top tier superhero movie, just a wonderful piece of art.
00:09:24
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely agree with that. So anyway, that kind of leads to the next question is what got you into superheroes in the first place?
Superheroes and Comics Discussion
00:09:32
Speaker
So I'm a lifelong comics reader. I mean, when I was a kid, that was my big thing. It was the X-Men comics more than anything. And I think that's probably tied into the 90s X-Men animated series that was on when I was growing up. So love the cartoon. And that was kind of my gateway into comics reading. So I followed the X-Men comics quite religiously through the 90s, right up until maybe 1978, all the Chris Claremont stuff and beyond.
00:10:00
Speaker
and a lot of classic Spider-Man from around that time as well. I've got a particular soft spot for the Maximum Carnage run and all that stuff, even though I think having revisited it recently, it doesn't quite hold off as well as I remember it, but there's still a lot of fun in those pages. And then I kind of drifted away from comics in the late 90s, early 2000s.
00:10:22
Speaker
And of all things, it was the Marvel Ultimate run that brought me back. I loved the idea of being able to get back into comics at a sort of ground level with story. So I could come in, not having to worry about the eight and nine years of storylines that I'd missed, and just pick up a completely fresh take on the Marvel universe. And Ultimate Spider-Man, Ultimate X-Men, they're some of my favorite comic runs of all time.
00:10:48
Speaker
I think sometimes the Ultimate Universe is a little bit on the cynical side, and it's a little bit skeezy, but maybe too much so for my tastes, but there's so much goodness in there. And like I said, the Ultimate X-Men and Ultimate Spider-Man runs are just wonderful. I'm also a big DC fan, but mostly Batman. I was a huge Batman fan in the day.
00:11:09
Speaker
I didn't collect it week to week, but I would always buy the trade paperbacks of the big arcs and story arcs. I've followed them that way. Some of the Jeff Loeb stuff in the early 2000s as well, like Dark Victory and Long Halloween. Those are some of my favourite comics. I've always had a comic on that goes somewhere, and Marvel Unlimited has been an absolute godsend for someone like me who's lost so much time with them at one point.
00:11:36
Speaker
And so I've just spent so much time going back and reading everything that I missed. And yeah, I feel like I'm totally versed in it again. It's lovely. Yeah, I think, um, uh, I imagine we're probably similar generation because I, for me, it was very similar story getting in with the, the X-Men animated series. And then.
00:11:53
Speaker
branching from that into into comics. Yeah, I had started reading before the ultimate stuff. And and when ultimate hit, that was kind of like the peak of my comic reading time. So I definitely dove into those and reread them fairly recently. Ultimate Spider-Man still holds up really well. But I mean, I got a lot of criticism about Bendis's work on on Avengers or Superman. But his ultimate Spider-Man work, his Daredevil work, alias, that was just like top tier of a great cop, some of the best comics ever written.
00:12:22
Speaker
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. The Ultimate Spider-Man stuff is really special. And it's funny, you should say that you reread it recently. I'm currently in the midst of a reread. I've kind of gone back to the very start of the Ultimate Universe, and that's what I'm doing. I'm picking my way through all in Marvel Unlimited. And the Ultimate holds up better than I remembered it being. I felt that that at the time was so cynical and so bleak. But looking back at it now,
00:12:48
Speaker
It's almost quaint at times considering the political landscape that we currently have. So yeah, I think Mark Miller does a lot of interesting stuff, but maybe he lets himself down a little bit of points throughout that run. But yeah, it's been great to revisit it and I'm really excited to get through it all again and then maybe have a chat about that somewhere. And then I've got a couple of guests on the podcast who are big comics fans as well. So yeah, definitely something we'll be looking at on the podcast, I think.
00:13:15
Speaker
Yeah, I did a reread of all the Ultimate stuff fairly recently. Miller stuff. Like I said, Ultimate Spider-Man still holds up very well. Ultimate X-Men does not really hold up as well. It's just very much like...
00:13:30
Speaker
peak cynical molar stuff. And the Ultimates is slightly better. If you try and remember that it's not the Avengers, it holds up a little bit better. Yeah, exactly. I hate his take on like Steve Rogers and Hank Pym. But the stories are good. The stories in the Ultimates is good. And then when we got to Loeb stuff, that's a different story.
00:13:51
Speaker
Well, yeah, no, I agree entirely. I think I do feel that's where the wheels come off a little bit. But I mean, I can revisit them. It's fascinating to see how how the visual style and some of the story beats have definitely influenced the MCU, you know, and you can definitely see that bleeding through quite a lot. And in fact, just revisiting into the Spider-Verse, some of the character designs there feel like they've just been lifted wholesale from the ultimate line, which isn't a criticism because the character designs there are wonderful.
00:14:20
Speaker
So, yeah, I mean, it's been fascinating to revisit. And then, yeah, just to continue on from what I said, those comments kind of led me back to superhero films. You know, I'd always kind of tuned into them whenever I could, but I had lost a little bit of lust of form.
00:14:35
Speaker
I'll be honest, the MCU completely revitalised my love for all things Marvel. I'm a staunch defender of the MCU, almost to my detriment sometimes, but I think they do much more right than they do wrong. I think what they've crafted over
00:14:53
Speaker
goodness was it, six, 700 movies at this point? It's getting to that, yeah. What they've crafted and the interconnectivity and all that, that's catnip to me. That just pushes all my buttons and absolutely gets me where I want to go. No, I agree 100%. You're in good company here on that front. I've had some guests on who aren't as keen on it anymore, but me, I'm still all in.
00:15:20
Speaker
one of probably the most frequent guests, Adam Garcia. He's always commented on it. He's like, oh, I feel like it's hard to watch Marvel movies or something along those lines because there's just so much. And I'm like, I love that stuff. I am completely here for that. I love that it's so interconnected. And by this point, you're either in it or you're not.
00:15:39
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, we have guessed on the podcast frequently as well. I make a real effort to make sure that we have dissenting voices, because there's nothing worse than shouting into an echo chamber, because that doesn't help everybody. And it doesn't really stimulate any good chat. But this notion of having to watch everything and you're missing out, I just don't buy it. I mean, I've always had the same take. I think the end goal for these movies was always for them to be exactly like the comics in the regard that
00:16:09
Speaker
If you only watch the main films, you'll be fine. You'll be able to follow everything. There may be characters that show up who you're not familiar with, but the film will do a good enough job of explaining who they are and you can understand, much like the comics do. And then if you like a character, you can say, oh, you know, what's going on with Wanda? What's her backstory? Well, there's like a six-part mini-series waiting for you on Disney Plus if you want to read more or you want to learn more about her. You don't need to watch it, but it'll just add a bit more flavor to the story if you do.
00:16:37
Speaker
So yeah, I mean, I don't really buy into the idea of there being too much. I do think maybe they've lost a little bit of their mojo in the last phase, but nowhere near the levels that I think people would have you believe. I really don't think it's dropped off as much as people think it has. Oh yeah, I agree with you on that. And in fact, that actually, you know, circles back to what you're saying about about Maximum Carnage, right? Because of all the different characters that I had actually done that recently for the Patreon show with
00:17:04
Speaker
with a fellow Scotsman, actually, a buddy of mine, Liam Kerrigan, came on to do that. And yeah, we dove into that one. And it's very 90s. It's very 90s. And, you know, definitely too many characters, I would argue. But one of the interesting things about it is, very much to your point,
00:17:26
Speaker
You didn't have to know all about these characters when you were reading the story. The story gave you everything you needed to know. And if you wanted to go learn more about Iron Fist or Captain America or Firestar and the New Warriors, you could then go do that. I don't think anyone would want to learn more about Night Watch, though, so you could skip that one.
00:17:45
Speaker
but I mean like there was a there was that it came to the fore for me anyway when they dropped the Marvels trailer earlier this year and there was a lot of like oh so so we're gonna have to watch WandaVision to know who Monica Rambeau is we're gonna have to have watched Ms Marvel no no no no the film will get you up to speed very quickly I think Marvel have got a great shorthand for that they do it really well in almost all other movies it's like you don't need all the backstory
00:18:11
Speaker
But again, if you go and see the Marvels and you really enjoy it, well then boy, have I got good news for you. You can go and find out what about these characters afterwards. I don't think it's a prerequisite that you have seen it before you go to the cinema. I just think it would add to your viewing experience if you have. But it's not vital. And I think people need to get that out of their head.
00:18:32
Speaker
as we said earlier, there's so much Marvel, there's so much MCU, unless you are a sort of dying hard fan, because maybe you won't get around at all, you know, maybe you do have to pick and choose, but as long as you're watching those core movies, I don't think you've got anything to worry about, to be honest.
MCU Storytelling Techniques
00:18:46
Speaker
Oh yeah, I mean, I think Infinity War is probably the best example of that shorthand, because you know, when you get introduced to each of the characters, in each scene, you get exactly what you need to know about them the second they're introduced, like the
00:18:57
Speaker
The Guardians of Destruction is still like one of the best intros in the MCU. It's just your outer space. You got the soundtrack blaring. You got them all in the cockpit singing. And then they're just like, oh, we're flying over to check this out. And like, maybe we'll get some money for it. Maybe not. And right in that scene, you get the conflicts between the characters. You get a quick shorthand of who they all are. And I think it helps a lot that James Gunn did some of the rewrites or maybe even wrote the whole scene itself.
00:19:26
Speaker
Well, I mean, I think Infinity War is kind of the closest we've ever got to having a sort of an event comic splashed up on the big screen, you know, and that's what it feels like. And I do remember, again, there's a lot of criticism at the time from certain quarters that there's not much of a character arc for a lot of the other characters, you know, it's like they all kind of just arrive and they don't really go through many changes. And it's like, well, yeah, but but we've got like 20 films that have all got those changes, you know.
00:19:53
Speaker
So next thing I want to talk about is talking about the, what kind of stuff are you into lately? Like what's been grabbing your interest these days? It could be anything, movies, comics, TV, anything that's kind of interesting stuff.
00:20:07
Speaker
So recently, I mean, I think at the moment, my big interest is a British show called, it's not a comic book show, but it's a British anthology series called Inside Number Nine. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's a wonderful show by two British stalwarts, Steve Pemberton and Rhys Shearsmith. They did The League of Gentlemen back in the day. That was quite a big UK comedy show.
00:20:30
Speaker
and it's kind of an anthology where every week you don't really know what you're going to get. Sometimes it's a horror episode, something that's a broad comedy, a silent episode and they've just finished their eighth season in the UK and that kind of encouraged me to go back through their back catalogs. I'm currently winding my way through that and it's such a treat. I mean like the consistency of output over the last 10 years from those guys is remarkable. They write every episode themselves and they star in every episode pretty much as well as different characters every week
00:21:00
Speaker
And it's just it's remarkable watching them. So I mean that is going to be my big TV love at the moment in terms of movies.
00:21:09
Speaker
I'm on a bit of a Daniel D. Lewis kick at the moment. I re-watched There Will Be Blood towards the beginning of the years. First thing I've seen in a long while, and it still stands up as one of my all-time favourite films, but all it really did was inspire me. I need to go back and watch every Daniel D. Lewis performance I can get my hands on. And so yeah, that's what I've been spending the last few months doing. And he has just
00:21:31
Speaker
That way it's almost a cliche at this point to talk about how great an actor he is because they throw awards at him constantly. But it's true. He does something with a craft that so few actors are doing these days. Every performance feels like a reinterpretation of the form and of himself and what he's given to it. Yeah, it's been a real treat to go back through that. Oddly enough, I watched him. Have you seen the band Sheez or Vinicernan?
00:22:01
Speaker
No, but I've heard a lot of people talking about it though. Yeah, so I watched out recently and it totally blew me away. It's one of those films I can't wait to revisit. But that inspired me to do a big rewatch of sort of Martin McDonough's back catalogue. So it's not many, I think it's only four movies, but each of them feels like this little mini masterpiece. And he feels like a director who's working just now who
00:22:24
Speaker
Well, he is recognised within certain circles. It doesn't feel like he's had a big mainstream hit yet, or his name's not widely known. I think it's only a matter of time before we get there, because he is, what talent he is, really remarkable.
00:22:38
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, out with that, in terms of my superhero viewing experiences, it's just MCU at the moment. I'm planning on Christopher Nolan, Dark Knight, Batman Begins, rewatch at some point in the near future because my eldest daughter is quite keen to watch when she's 16. She's kind of just the right age to kind of appreciate the nuances in those movies. So yeah, that might be next on the agenda once I get through all my little bits and pieces.
00:23:07
Speaker
Awesome,
TV Shows and Movies Discussion
00:23:08
Speaker
yeah. For my part, like what I think I'm most into right now is season three of Superman and Lois. Like I've been watching that week and it is, I think it's probably the best season of that show so far. It's just like the...
00:23:22
Speaker
It seems to be sidestepping the problem that I think the second season, I felt it was trying to kind of match the beat to the first season a little bit too much, like with the mid-season villain twist and all that. Here, they had that to an extent, but it felt a lot more organic with the way they did it in this season. And it's just like the interdynamics, the fact that, I'm not sure if you've watched any of this current season,
00:23:50
Speaker
No, so I've seen seasons one and two and loved season one. I loved it so much. One of my favorite superhero shows. Season two almost lost me, if I'm honest. I stuck out to the end and it kind of brought it right to itself, I felt in the last few episodes. But by about the midway point, I was flagging a little bit. So it's good to hear that season three is a bit of a return to form.
00:24:10
Speaker
It is, yeah, very much so. And even though they replaced the actor who plays Jonathan, I'm still not completely keen on the new guy. I still prefer the other guy, but he does a pretty good job. And there are definitely parts in the season where I'm just like, where I forgot the fact that he was a replacement. So that was definitely good.
00:24:29
Speaker
Yeah, I'm definitely gonna watch it when it's I think it starts in the UK soon. So I will definitely tune in once it once it's running. But yeah, like I said, I wasn't sure about going back to after season two, because it just like I said,
00:24:42
Speaker
I don't like TV shows when I feel like it's a slog. Do you know what I mean? I feel like I'm watching it for the sake of completion. And it was kind of get a little bit like that with season two. But like I said, towards the end. Flash season seven and eight was like that for me. And I started watching a little bit of season nine, but it's still got some of that same. But it's the last season, so I got to finish it.
00:25:02
Speaker
Yeah, whenever I think of The Flash, I have a chuckle for one of the guests that we had on podcast 616, Craig McKenzie, because he follows The Flash and he reviews it for the site and he's in that category. Craig just can't let it go. He just has to watch it to the end. We had him on 616 a couple of weeks ago and he was talking about it like he was a lifer getting out of jail. He's just like, you know, only another four episodes to go, then I'm free of The Flash forever.
00:25:32
Speaker
This makes me laugh. I don't have the steam power for that.
00:25:35
Speaker
I mean, I ducked out of the flash after two seasons. You know, that was enough for me. It's like, you know, it's not going where I want it to go. So, yeah, I have nothing but admiration for him for getting through that show. Yeah, I mean, once you're I mean, I was kind of like that with Supergirl. And then in the last season, I'm just like, you know, no, I'm just I'm done. I'm done. I couldn't finish the last season. But the flash, I've stuck with it for eight years. I stuck through season seven and eight. So at this point,
00:26:05
Speaker
just one season more and I got, I got to finish it up. I got to see, I got to see Stephen Amell come back as green arrow one last time. So I just, I just got to see how it finishes all up. Well, it's a shorter season as well. So they're being kind to you. You can do it, have your confidence and you get there.
00:26:24
Speaker
Okay. Well, anyway, uh, today, like we said earlier, we're talking about, uh, Dr. Strange, the, um, the 2016 movie we had actually covered. Have you ever seen the original Dr. Strange movie from 1978? No, it's, it's been on my watch list forever, but I've just never gotten around to it. What did you make of it? We covered it way back in like one of our early episodes. I think like episode five or six or so before episode 10 and
00:26:54
Speaker
surprisingly good. It was surprisingly good for the time. Yeah, I mean, because it was because I was expecting something very kissy, very, very like, you know, very tongue in cheek. But it I mean, the effects are crap, but the effects aside. Yeah, it took itself surprisingly seriously. Peter Hooten played Dr. Strange, and he did a really good job in it. They had the guy who played Wong, but he was also pretty good in it. Jennifer Walter played the villain.
00:27:22
Speaker
Morgan le Fay in it and yeah, it was it was surreal to see her in that because I
00:27:29
Speaker
know, I want to give Jennifer Walter, I always think of Lucille Bluth. So going back and seeing her in in that and seeing her how young she was when she did that was was really surprising. But yeah, like, you know, when you think about it, you got to put it in the time, right? It was 1970. So like, even like the top tier TV dramas weren't as sophisticated back then. But even for that time, especially, I think if that had gone to series, it would have been a really
00:27:54
Speaker
interesting urban fantasy type series. It would have been kind of like Buffy or Supernatural 30 years ahead of its time. It's definitely one that I've been looking to cover for the longest time, but you know what it's like? The watch list gets ever longer and it just keeps getting further and further down, but I will definitely visit it, I promise, definitely.
00:28:17
Speaker
Yeah, I'd say it's worth a watch. It's I was I was surprisingly taken with it a lot more even than like the fairly recently we'd covered the the Incredible Hulk pilot the 1977 one. I actually thought it was superior to the Incredible Hulk one. And you know, that's and that's regarded as like, you know, kind of a classic for the time. I this was
00:28:38
Speaker
And it's funny when you think about it because it came out before Superman, the movie, and it took itself, you know, just arguably, I'd say more seriously than Superman. The movie took the source material.
Exploring Marvel's Past Films
00:28:49
Speaker
Hmm. I mean, that's interesting because we own podcast six one six. We tend to just do sort of like we look at we look at modern MCU, modern films are coming in, modern TV shows we cover. But we do have a special episode called Marvel Tat.
00:29:05
Speaker
that Ashley generally heads up and she's covered pretty much the entirety of The Incredible Hulk on there with a few guests. And yeah, she's got a list as long as your arm for those kind of Marvel projects that she wants to go back and do. So Doctor Strange is definitely on that list. I think we've got, we also want to do the original Captain America movie from the 90s. We've done that, yeah, that.
00:29:30
Speaker
Although interesting, interesting piece of trivia on that is Ronnie Cox, he plays the president in that he was also the he was the the corporate bad guy in the first Robocop movie. Yeah. And he said that the script was like the greatest script he had ever read. And he doesn't know what they did to that script because what came out the other end was just complete garbage.
00:29:55
Speaker
I've got really fond memories of that film. I don't remember any of the specifics but as a kid, I had it on video cassette and I must have watched it about 50 times. If you'll ask me right now to describe what happens, I have no recollection of it. I just remember like 10-year-old Hugh loved that film so much. So yeah, I cannot wait to get back to that one. So I mean there's a certain charm isn't there about those films, you know, where like
00:30:21
Speaker
where they're giving it their all, even though it's clearly not working, you know, that they're putting everything into it. And you can appreciate it on that level, I think. So yeah, no, definitely they will be on the Marvel tat list that we'll get to eventually. Okay. All right. Yeah. So what's your history with Dr. Strange? Were you a fan of him at all in the in the comics? Or was this kind of like your big introduction to him? Honestly, this was kind of this was kind of my
00:30:45
Speaker
My big introduction to him as a character proper because he'd always been someone who would show up in other things I'd read rather than be, I didn't really read the Doctor Strange comics at all growing up. But obviously, you know, the Marvel comics are like, you know, the characters popping up left, right and centre all the time. So he was a character I was aware of. I'd read some bits and pieces, I'd seen some stuff with the Nightmare storyline that they did.
00:31:10
Speaker
because he's obviously a recurring villain. But in terms of the meat of the story, I knew the broad strokes, but I didn't really know anything other than that. So I actually think that kind of helped when I went to see this movie. And it probably informed why I'm so fond of it, because I don't really have any issues with changes that they may have made or slight character discrepancies, because it was all largely new to me anyway.
00:31:34
Speaker
Yeah, I very similar like I was I was slightly more familiar with him. I wasn't as familiar with like his solo comics, but I had done probably about maybe 10 years, eight or 10 years before this movie came out. I did a big dive into the classic defenders comics. So okay. And he was like the mainstay of that. I read that like I read that entire that entire run was like what like 100 and
00:32:01
Speaker
hundred plus issues and change hundred issues and change. And like the Steve Gerber stuff, the JMD Mateus stuff was far and away like top tier 70s Marvel. And so that was where most of my familiar became came was from that and just like seeing him playing off like Hulk and Valkyrie was just a was just a lot more fun for me. Whenever I tried to dive into his his solo stuff, it was a it was a bit more of a slog. To be honest, it was a bit harder to get into like even
00:32:29
Speaker
Like Warren Ellis even did a run on him in the 90s, and that's out in one of the epic collections. And I tried reading that, and it was pretty slow. And that surprised me because Warren Ellis's Hellstorm run is one of my favorite supernatural Marvel comics that he did also around the same time. And so I was expecting what he did to Hellstorm to also be like what he did to Doctor Strange. And it really wasn't. And I think the character just
00:32:57
Speaker
the way the character is written in the comics, he just felt very, I guess maybe stuffy is the right word. He just never felt like he had a whole lot of range. I think Jason Aaron's run from a few years ago, that kind of changed a little bit of it. And I, I enjoyed I found myself enjoying how he depicted strange in that. And it was, I think that was very much influenced by what Cumberbatch had done in the movie, because I was
00:33:22
Speaker
I was completely taken with Cumberbatch's performance in this movie and continuing on in the other films too and I think the changes he brought to the character really made him a lot more interesting for me.
Doctor Strange's Portrayal and Impact
00:33:36
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny you should mention Cumberbatch in particular because I remember at the time when the film came out there was a lot of discourse around him maybe being
00:33:46
Speaker
you know, slightly miscast or that they were trying too hard to make him like almost like a knockoff Tony Stark, you know, like a mystical Tony Stark. And I don't think that's quite the case. I really like the sort of the arrogance that he has in the role. And it kind of works for him because he doesn't have enough charm initially to be as likable as Tony Stark is when he's, you know, when he's putting people down, he's making all these clips.
00:34:12
Speaker
and that just adds to the character for me because it makes him stand out as something a little bit different. And if I'm honest with you, I think the scripts don't serve him particularly well when they try and shoehorn in the sort of like the Marvel quips that we've become so used to under sort of the Josh Whedon school of writing, you know, where everybody's got to have something funny to see all the time. And I think that's when it falls flat. Whereas a lot of the humor that works for Doctor Strange, not just in this movie, but across them all,
00:34:41
Speaker
is in Cumberbatch's mannerisms and his delivery of lines, not so much the dialogue itself. And I wish that they would lean into that a little bit more and stop having them with these one-liners that just don't work. There's a few absolute clunkers in this one and the multiverse of madness where you just think,
00:34:59
Speaker
Yeah, you wrote that with Robert Downey Jr. in mind. He could say that and get a laugh at the audience when Cumberbatch says it doesn't quite land. But there's so much else about the performance and there's a real gravitas to Cumberbatch in the role. The scene's early in this film where shortly after his accident where he's trying to come to terms with what his life is now,
00:35:23
Speaker
I think he's devastatingly good. The scene between him and Christine Palmer and his apartment where he's lost everything and he lashes out and pushes her away as well.
00:35:35
Speaker
I think in a lesser actor's hands, that scene comes across as a bit rote, a little bit trite, and doesn't quite land. But Cumberbatch really, really sells it, and Rachel McAdams is wonderful. I think she's very much wasted in this film, but she's a wonderful actress. And she bounces off them so well. And yeah, those are the facets of the character I find really fascinating in this film. And it's something I wish that they would maybe focus on a little bit more as the character progresses.
00:36:05
Speaker
No, I agree with you completely. I one of the things that I love about cover batch performance is the whole idea that and this is it is very it is a very similar style to Tony Stark where he's the smartest man in the room. He knows he's the smartest man in the room. And he wants you to know it too. And I think
00:36:23
Speaker
I think you're right. I think sometimes they play that like, oh, well, it's the same thing. So let's give him the same lines. It's different. He's a much drier version of that. And he's a lot more...
00:36:37
Speaker
fighting in a serbic i think and i think yeah my favorite interaction was actually in infinity war with him and tony stark where tony is trying to act like he's the smartest one in the room and and strangers like no no no no it's me and he completely knocks him down every time and i didn't even pick up on this until last night but
00:36:54
Speaker
One of my favorite lines in Infinity Wars when he says to Stark, he's like, unlike everybody in your life, I don't work for you. And then I picked up, that's actually an echo of the line that Wong says to him here when Strange is making all these quips and it's a Wong and Wong's just like completely deadpan. And then Strange, like people used to think I was funny and Wong says, did they work for you?
00:37:17
Speaker
Yeah, I think that there's a huge difference in the portrayal of each character, but I still think sometimes the writers haven't caught up with that yet and they still have something that they need to learn from. It's not really a huge issue because I do think that Cumberbatch is such a strong actor that the strength of his performance kind of overwhelms any shortcomings in the dialogue. So I think it still works really well. And you mentioned Wong, I mean,
00:37:46
Speaker
Benedict Wong is a bit of a stalwart of UK sitcoms. I know him from dozens of one-off appearances. He's a great character actor. He's very funny. If you were to tell me 10 years ago that Benedict Wong would be such an integral part to the Marvel Cinematic Universe, it would have blown my tiny mind because it's crazy how far he's come.
00:38:11
Speaker
And revisiting this film, it was interesting to see that, again, they hadn't quite got the character yet, had they? They hadn't quite landed on what he was going to become. But yeah, it's funny to think of him now being, you know, the sorcerer supreme. And he's almost like, he's become a bit of a sort of Phil Coulson, hasn't he? Showing up in various properties to kind of link them together. Because obviously he's in Shang-Chi and he shows up in She-Hulk. And there is a feeling that Wong might be the one that's going to pull everyone together for whatever the next big threat is going to be.
00:38:41
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. It's funny watching this last night and then seeing how far that character has come. And you just blew my mind, though, when you said that he's a stalwart of I had no idea he was British, because his American accent is pretty is so is so well done in this movie, especially compared to I mean, Cumberbatch, I'm not sure why they had Cumberbatch use an American accent, to be honest, I think it would have been perfectly fine. I think it would have worked better if he had just used his natural accent. Yeah.
00:39:08
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with that. It seems like an odd choice because
00:39:12
Speaker
Again, they're not as beholden to the comics as some people would like, but I think that's a strength in the MCU. The comics are a jumping off point to tell the story they want to tell. So do you know what? See if you want Dr. Stephen Strange to be British, that's fine. Let's have him be British. It's not a problem. And Cumberbatch, I think even by the time he was cast here, was quite a recognisable face across the pond because of his work at Sherlock. So it probably did come as a bit of a, you know,
00:39:40
Speaker
a real sort of, what's he doing? What's that voice? Even though I think his accent is okay, it's noticeably American because it's so familiar with Benedict Cumberbatch's accent that it's like, it's a way for you to adjust. I think when this movie came out, I had just finished doing a binge of Sherlock. So when I went and watched it, I was completely taken aback. And
00:40:06
Speaker
I think it actually took me out of the movie the first watch a lot because just like how different his voice was and I just I was not expecting that and I think it and it just it felt so unnecessary because there's even if you're sticking very close to the comics there's nothing really in Dr. Strange's background that says he has to be a native New Yorker
00:40:26
Speaker
He lives in New York, but there's nothing about that that says he has to be a native New Yorker. I mean, you know, as a comparison, like I'm watching, I just started watching the, the undoing on, on Max now, because I'm, I'm canceling the subscription because, you know, fuck Zazlov. And so I'm trying to watch like all the stuff that I've been meeting to check out. And, you know,
00:40:49
Speaker
what's his name? Hugh, uh, you know, the rom com, not Hugh or Laurie, no, no, no, the rom com Hugh Grant. Yes. He's in it. And I know all the Hughes Perry. I know them all.
00:41:01
Speaker
Um, yeah, yeah. So Hugh Grant's in that and he's, you know, he's playing this doctor in New York, but you know, he's still using his, his British accent, you know, and it, and it works fine. I'm like, there's no reason you couldn't have done that with, with Cumberbatch in, in these movies. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, in fact, just speaking of Hugh Laurie, there's another one. I mean, I'm a big fan of house, you know, I love that show.
00:41:22
Speaker
But as a viewer who knew Hugh Laurie for years growing up as the comedy foil and black hatter with this very posh, upper-class British accent, again, it took forever to get used to that accent. And again, I think it's a perfectly fine American accent that he's doing. But it just took forever for my ears to ignore the fact that he wasn't using his actual accent.
00:41:46
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's a problem, but it's not one that I've let deter me. And I think, how many appearances are we in now, like five or six by this point? I think it's almost completely gone now. I don't really think about it all that much.
00:41:58
Speaker
Yeah, I've gotten really used to it now, and it doesn't bother me as much as it did on the first viewing. I think by the time we got around to Infinity War, I think I'd probably... I had accepted it that just this is the way it is. I think it would have been better the other way, but it's working fine. And like you said, like, Cumberbatch's performance is so good. He brings so much to the character that it's not a big distraction in the end. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Now, I think this was...
00:42:29
Speaker
I think when I was thinking about the origin story movies last night that Marvel has done, I feel like outside of Iron Man and whether or not you want to call Guardians of the Galaxy an origin story movie is, you know, you could say it is, you could say it isn't. But I think outside of I'd say it's not so much. It's where the team got together, but they all had their own backstories going into it. So I don't really think of it as an origin story as much. But but I think
00:42:56
Speaker
of the origin story movies, you know, like Iron Man, Captain Marvel, First Avenger, Thor, all those. I feel like this, outside of Iron Man, this is probably my favorite of the origin story Marvel movies. Yeah. See, that's interesting. I wrestled with this before we began recording. I've been kind of going over the list in my head. And yeah, do you know, I think I might agree with you. I do have a ridiculous soft spot for the First Avenger.
00:43:25
Speaker
I love that film. I do. I think it's one of the MCU's proper underrated gems. But yeah, this film is terrific. I mean, really, there's so many interesting details in this film going on just in the margins of it. And like, you know, it's so rich with impressive visuals.
00:43:48
Speaker
And I think it benefits from having a director like Scott Derrickson, who has such an eye for these things. And he's got such a, I think even at this point in his career,
00:43:58
Speaker
There's a confidence about the way in which he directs this film and the way in which everything's put together. And those trippy sort of psychedelic effects that we get in those battles in the mirror universe, which look astounding and deserve to be seen on the biggest screen imaginable. I mean, this was the first Marvel film I saw on an IMAX screen, and I'm glad that I did. But even through all that chaos, he's such a he's so good at laying out the geography of what you're watching. So you never really feel lost. You know, you're always going with the story.
00:44:27
Speaker
And yeah, like I said, I think because Cumberbatch is such a talented actor, he really gets across a lot of the emotion of what's happening, which sometimes gets lost a little bit in an origin story. How many things do you see that, you know, you get an origin story and the hero's often not the most interesting thing in the origin story and it's quite disappointing.
00:44:46
Speaker
I don't think that argument can be made here. We can maybe talk a little bit later, actually, though, about the villain issue that this film has, because I do think it is kind of one of its glaring problems. But yeah, no, I think I would agree with you. Interesting what you say about the Guardians, because I've made that point before, I don't really consider that an origin story either, because the characters all they all arrive sort of ex nilo, that they're exactly fully formed and who they were, you know, they go on character arcs throughout the three films by all means, and they change and they grow.
00:45:15
Speaker
But the work's been done before we get there. Drax is who he is. The weight of their history is brought to that movie. Whereas here, we get a proper right.
00:45:26
Speaker
what is Dr. Stephen Strange? What is this world? And also, I think this one's got like a big job in its hand for an origin story, because not only do we have to bring in Dr. Stephen Strange and establish who he is, and because, you know, they were setting him up from the from the get go, let's be very clear from the get go, he was going to be an integral part of the MCU moving forward. And that's kind of how it's turned out to be.
00:45:47
Speaker
But they also have to introduce the idea of magic to the MCU after... I mean, how many years have we been going at that point? Nine years in? Was it about that route? Eight, nine years? A little bit. This was probably like eight years, I think, because 2008 is when it started.
00:46:00
Speaker
Right, so see eight years in, and now you have to get all these super heroics and these space opera adventures. Now you're going to introduce, oh, there's also magical realms and demons and monsters. I mean, that's a big ask for a film. And the fact that this film handles it so elegantly and with such beauty at times, I think that gets underestimated sometimes how much work this film had to do to convince audiences. And it does it so easily.
00:46:28
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I mean you think you know Thor had it kind of toed that line It came right but it came close to that line But it didn't quite cross it because there's that first movie where he says, you know, you know You call it science your ancestors call it magic, but I'm the same There is also the part in and then you get to the dark world where they've got like, you know spaceships and stuff like that they're flying around and and that one scene where Jane's being examined in the
00:46:55
Speaker
by the by the Asgardian healers. And they're like, Oh, it's a soul for it. And she's like, No, no, no, it's this, you know, whatever, like, you know, molecular or whatever type of thing. It's like, yeah, it's just they're using different names for for for sci fi stuff, basically. And they're, they're using magic names to describe sci fi stuff. So it was very much, much more in the in the sci fi realm in those and then you get to this and
00:47:18
Speaker
Yeah, I'm pretty amazed at how well they were able to introduce the concept of magic, multiverse too. This is the first mention we get of the multiverse here. And when the ancient one says, she's like, we call them spells. But if that word offends you, you could call them programs. And she's talking about it as like, we're taking these energy from other dimensions.
00:47:44
Speaker
it works. It works in this way that you know it explains it and it doesn't become too woo woo. It doesn't become too fantasy-esque. It's still grounded in a type of reality which then ends up letting us able when we get it to multiverse of madness then we're able to just like cut loose and be like yeah it's magic now. Yeah I mean it's like I said there's an elegance to it because it almost sneaks in under the audience's nose you know. You've turned up to watch a hero movie and I would imagine
00:48:13
Speaker
the average moviegoer doesn't know Dr. Strange is like a magician. They just think, oh, it's just another superhero. Let's find out what that is. And it probably is a bit of a magic realm. They've got magical books and spells and Dumbledore going to show up at some point. I know what's happening, but they do it just matter of factly.
00:48:37
Speaker
I think a lot of that, if I'm honest to you, is down as well to Tilda Swinton's performance as the ancient one because she presents the sort of the reasonable logical face of what is an absolutely insane concept, you know, but she explains it so calmly and so with so much humanity that you just accept it, you know, there's no, the audience has an immediate buy-in because of the way in which the rules of the magic are explained. As you said, that lovely line about
00:49:05
Speaker
well, this offends your sensibilities, you can refer to it in this programme, because that's what we're doing. It's the programming language of the world that we are able to alter. Yeah, I mean, I just very quickly, until this one, I think she's great here. And I totally get the sort of the whitewashing issue with changing that character. And I think it's absolutely fair. I would not disagree with anyone who has an issue with that. But just taking the character for what is presented on screen,
00:49:34
Speaker
I think it's a wonderful performance. I always remember, even at the time after the first time I watched this, being very disappointed that this was a sort of a one and done for Tilda Swinton. I know she's returning in-game, but this is a character I wanted to see more of and I just wish that they maybe kept her around a little bit longer. Maybe one more film before they decide to put her out to pasture. Yeah, I wanted to talk about the Tilda Swinton thing and the controversy about that because I
00:50:01
Speaker
I'm too mind of this because I get the whole whitewashing issue. I totally do. Scott Derrickson had said that he had originally wanted to cast an Asian actress in that part, but he was worried that it would seem too Dragon Lady-esque and it would just present a different problem from the classic wise old Asian man from the comics.
00:50:22
Speaker
version. So I get wanting to do like an Asian woman instead, I thought that would have been interesting.
Casting Diversity and Challenges
00:50:27
Speaker
But at the same time, I can understand why he's saying it's like we were worried that that would be also too stereotypical. I don't know what you think, but I find the MCU generally
00:50:45
Speaker
to be pretty good when it comes to diversity. I do think they make an effort. I do think that it doesn't always work and they don't always land on the right side of the line. But I think it's admirable that they do put the effort in. And I appreciate it's all feeding the capitalist machine. It's all the Disney global empire. I get all that.
00:51:05
Speaker
But sometimes you just have to take the win where you can get it, right? And you look at a film at light. Look at Shang-Chi is probably the best modern example, isn't it? I mean, Shang-Chi is a wonderful movie. I've got a lot of time for that film. And it's, you know, it's very, very much focused on the idea of diversity and the lean into that. And, you know, the entire film is filled with these absolutely amazing Asian actors and, you know, behind the scenes as well. You know, they've got people from that background who are contributing to the film, writing the film, directing the film.
00:51:35
Speaker
Um, so I do think Marvel generally get it right, or at least they look like they're trying to get it right. And so it's something like this. I, I kind of, I kind of buy Derek's explanation, you know, I, I wouldn't really, but that's easy for me to say as, as a sort of like white Westerner looking at this, you know, yeah, that's fine. So I do get the pushback. And if, if, if someone, um, of Asian heritage does have an issue with that,
00:52:00
Speaker
I don't imagine myself saying, no, you're wrong. It's fine for what they did. But I can only speak personally. And I think Derek's explanation kind of stands up quite well. There are other franchises and there are other studios, I think, do have issues with this sort of stuff. I really don't think Marvel do. I think they make a big effort with it. And like I said, maybe it's not enough. In fact, let me be very clear, it isn't enough. They should be doing more, but it's a step in the right direction.
00:52:27
Speaker
Well, also I think with the Ancient One, you're kind of in, you're kind of between a rock and hard place because I don't think there's any way you can do, you can cast that character that's not gonna have some controversy attached to it, right? Because it's such a problematic character to begin with that there's gonna be,
00:52:44
Speaker
there's going to be some issue with it. If you cast an Asian actor, then it's stereotypical part. If you cast an Asian woman actor, then it's a different kind of Asian stereotype. If you cast a non-Asian actor, then it's Asian erasure. So there's no real, someone's going to be pissed off no matter what you do with that part. Well, it's like Iron Man 3, isn't it? We heard we were getting the Mandarin.
00:53:11
Speaker
Now, I know this is a controversial topic, right? I know people like to get quite angry about Iron Man 3 things, but I love the twist there, the fact that it's just this absurd persona that they've kind of put out there. And that was a neat trick of Shane Black's to kind of sidestep that issue.
00:53:27
Speaker
because in a lot of interviews he did around the time after the film was released and the secret was out, he was very candid about it. It's like that is a deeply racist, stereotypical part of the Marvel canon. You know, the Mandarin is this sort of evil inverted commas yellow menace, you know, truly awful depiction of Asian stereotypes, horrendous.
00:53:47
Speaker
then you look at what Shang-Chi does with the same idea, and it's so elegant where you actually have Wenwu talking about how all the Westerners refer to me as a Mandarin, the Mandarin, and then he starts to deconstruct how ridiculous and silly it is. And I love that. I mean, that's kind of the, that's the
00:54:05
Speaker
That's the script wrestling with the studios of the company's really dubious past and kind of putting it up there on screen to be mocked and laughed at, rightly so, but coming from a character who has the sort of the justifiable reasons to mock it and point it out. I love the way that they handle that. But I think you're right here. It doesn't feel like there's a clean answer. It doesn't feel like there's a right or a wrong.
00:54:33
Speaker
I accept whatever you fall on this because it's a difficult one to wrestle with. I've talked about the Mandarin stuff in Iron Man 3. We did a whole episode on Iron Man 3, but I will say this, that I hated it at first. My attitude at the time was there's a way to do the Mandarin that avoids the racial issues, but without having to make him a joke. I thought that
00:54:56
Speaker
In fact, what they were doing in the first part of Iron Man 3, I loved Ben Kingsley's performance in the role of the Mandarin. I thought that was a really interesting updating of it. And then I said, but even still, you could do it with an Asian actor. And I think that my go-to at the time was you get someone like Tony Leung and you bring him in and he could do a really good job.
00:55:17
Speaker
And everyone's like, oh, no, it can't be done. It can't be done. And then we get Shang-Chi. We get Tony Lung himself as the Mandarin. And it works. And he's able to do it. So I'm like, see, it can be done. So I think, yeah, there was definitely like I've come to terms with it because obviously they did. They gave me exactly what I said I wanted. So I'm fine with it now. But at the time, I was very incensed about it because of the because of I felt there was a better way to do it.
00:55:44
Speaker
I still have other issues with Iron Man 3, but the Mandarin stuff I can live with now because of what came after.
00:55:52
Speaker
You know, my co-host on 616 virtually spits every time I mention Iron Man 3. She's so disgusted by that film. I've always had a soft spot for it if I'm honest with you, Perry. Even at the time, I remember coming out the cinema and just thinking that the undercutting of The Mandarin was just a hysterical reveal. And it really worked for me. And I was really surprised when I went online and I saw that there was a proper angry backlash from a lot of the fans. And the longer I sat with it,
00:56:21
Speaker
the more convinced I became that I'm still quite happy that I really enjoyed it. But I get where people are coming from, you know? But yeah, I've got a soft spot for Iron Man 3. That's a really interesting film. That is probably the most divisive Marvel film that's been made.
00:56:35
Speaker
Yes, 100%. Yeah. Because like, I don't even think there's people who are indifferent to it. It's like you either really think it's great, or you despise that film. And that's 10 people have changed their minds and maybe warm to over the years. But like, I remember at the time it was a proper, you know, like,
00:56:52
Speaker
Some of the reviews at the time as well, there were some reviews that were glowing talking about how it's like, such a unique MCU movie doing something completely different. And then other reviews which were just tearing it to shreds. So yeah, I'm definitely in the pro Iron Man 3 campaign for you to chalk me up there. I hated it initially and I've softened on it. It's still
00:57:16
Speaker
Maybe not even my least favorite now. I think Eternals are probably my least favorite, but it's definitely not a movie that I'm rushing to run back and rewatch. I think maybe my inherent Shane Black bias is showing as well. I'm a huge fan of Shane Black as a script writer.
00:57:35
Speaker
In recent times he's maybe fumbled a little bit, but generally I think he's a terrific writer and he's got such an interesting writing style that I think really suited Downey Jr. Obviously with Kiss Kiss Bang Bang a few years before Iron Man 3. I think his writing brings the best out in Downey Jr. sometimes and I think for that alone it was kind of enough to give me a big buy-in for that film.
00:57:57
Speaker
I love Shane Black, but that was my issue is it felt too it was too Shane Black. And it was it overrode the fact that it's it's supposed to be a Marvel movie first and the Shane Black movie second. And I think like, and I think this is a this is an issue that Marvel has where sometimes you have directors who completely disappear in the movies and you can't really tell if it's their movie, whereas then you have but then you've got like Shane Black, who
00:58:21
Speaker
It's very much a Shane Black movie, and you can tell it's a Shane Black movie. But I think there's a better balance. I think Scott Derrickson does it in this, I think. I think he strikes a nice balance where this feels like a Scott Derrickson movie, but it also fits in them. I mean, James Gunn does it the best, I think, of all of them, right? His movies feel like James Gunn movies, but they also seamlessly fit into the MCU.
00:58:42
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's true. I mentioned earlier, I mean I was a big Scott Derrickson fan coming into this movie as a horror critic and writer. I think Sinister is one of the best horror movies of maybe the last 15 years or so. I think it really works. It works as a sort of like a crowd-pleasing horror movie whilst also retaining some
00:59:06
Speaker
genuinely nasty moments and shocking scares that work so well. It's well worth your time and the exorcism of Emily Rose is an interesting idea.
00:59:24
Speaker
The execution of that film is terrific. Even though I don't think it all hangs together perfectly, there are like two or three moments in that movie which will live with me until my dying day. I sort of absolutely scared the wits out of me in the cinema, really, really got to me. And so, yeah, so when he was coming on to direct this, I was very excited because I thought, well, you know, Marvel are taking a bit of a, well, yeah, probably a bit of a risk given a film like this to a horror director.
00:59:50
Speaker
And again, he just he skirts the lines brilliantly. He does exactly what you want from the movie. It's not scary because that's not the remit of this film, but like he really captures such a unique visual style. Yeah, that's the thing I keep coming back to over and over again with this film in particular is just how different it looks to everything that had come before it in the MCU. And I think a lot of what Derrickson establishes here has created a bit of a sort of
01:00:18
Speaker
It's created like the hub of the MCU's visual storytelling. The portals, for instance, is probably the best example of that, isn't it? The portals that are created here for the first time, we see them on screen.
01:00:32
Speaker
I don't know about your favorite, I love Endgame, but it spoke to 10-year-old Hugh, who would have killed for a movie like that at that age.
Visual Impact of Doctor Strange
01:00:42
Speaker
And the Portal scene is one of my favourite moments in cinema. I love it. Everything I watch it.
01:00:49
Speaker
I flipped the fuck out in that scene. I mean, I was in the theater, and as soon as we had the as soon as they had that little crackle of Sam's voice in his ear, I'm just like, Oh, my God. And I see I see all the portals opening. Everybody's coming out. I'm like, Oh, my God, it's coming. It's coming. It's coming. It's coming. And like, I was sitting next to my
01:01:08
Speaker
then my fiance, and I'm just like, I'm like, it's coming, it's coming, it's coming, it's coming, it's coming. And then all of a sudden, and then he says Avengers Assemble, and I'm like, yes, yes. And people in theaters in Japan do not react to movies. So like, I flip the fuck out of that scene. You know, it's fun. It's a bit like that here as well in the UK. We're not big on like crowd reactions, but you could feel this ripple of energy and love and joy in the cinema at that moment. And it was just it was so beautiful.
01:01:35
Speaker
So yes, I mean, you don't get that without Dr. Strange, without the establishing of that as a thing. And then it just shows up all the time. I think it's funny how we've taken it for granted.
01:01:47
Speaker
It shows up in She-Hulk when Wong was jumping through portals. It shows up in Shang-Chi. It shows up in Guardians of the Galaxy 3. You know, we've got one of the one of the ravagers has got the sling ring and opens the portals at one part in the film. And yeah, I mean, and the work that Derek's establishes here and does in this movie, which then carries over to even the second film, Multiverse of Madness. I mean, there's a lot of visual shorthand from from this film to that film.
01:02:15
Speaker
Again, it stangles me that this film doesn't get more love if I'm honest with you. I agree with you. I mean, this film does have some issues and we'll talk about Kaisilius. I think that's the next, that's the big thing to, that's the big elephant in the room to talk about with this movie. But yes, as far as the visuals go and what it does to set up Doctor Strange, I mean, like, this could have gone very bad.
01:02:36
Speaker
And this could have ended up being a complete nonsense film to fans of the MCU. Because I know lots of people who are not familiar with the comics at all, but who love the MCU and are completely invested in it. And I could have very easily seen comic fans coming. You could have had a very similar reaction to Iron Man, like an opposite reaction of Iron Man 3, where when Iron Man 3,
01:03:02
Speaker
If you were much more tuned into the MCU than the Iron Man comics, you probably fell more on the side of loving Iron Man 3. If you were more tuned into the Iron Man comics, you probably fell on the side of despising Iron Man 3.
01:03:14
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like you could have gone the opposite way with this, where if you were tuned into the comics, you would have come out loving Doctor Strange if they had made it very true to the comics. But you could have also come out being an MCU fan being like just being completely confused. Like, wait, wait, magic? What? What? And Derrickson was able to find a way to very seamlessly integrate the whole idea of magic and the multiverse and to come easily slotted into the MCU. And then, like you said, create this visual shorthand that is still with us to this day. And just like some of the
01:03:45
Speaker
I think one of my favorite sequences in this movie is when he meets the ancient one for the first time, and she sends him through that like psychedelic journey. I'm like, like when he's looking at his hand, and each finger is growing into another hand, which is growing into another hand, and it just like non stop infinitely. And then my favorite shot though, is when he's falling into his eye, and he's like, grabbing on the edge, it's like, Oh my god, this is amazing. Yeah, it's fantastic. And
01:04:09
Speaker
And it's almost a magic trick in and of itself, how easily Derrickson got the audience to buy into what he was doing. Because like you said, as we mentioned earlier, it just happened very naturally. You know, it doesn't feel like a big leap to go from the world of superheroes in space opera to the world of magic and mysticism. It just feels like a natural next step. And it's become more impressive with hindsight because I
Current MCU Multiverse Challenges
01:04:34
Speaker
I look at the current the current phase that we're in with the multiverse saga and what are we 10 movies in maybe six TV shows into the saga and I still can't really tell you what the multiverse is in any concrete terms you know because every film has kind of muddied the waters a little bit or Loki had
01:04:56
Speaker
looking at what eight episodes to explain it to us and didn't really give us a clear answer on it. I just wish we'd a film already that was in the same way that this film introduces the realms of magic and mysticism.
01:05:11
Speaker
I wish we'd had a film that was very concentrated on what the multiverse was. It's all half answers and obfuscated responses you get. And I think that's why the general audiences aren't buying into it quite as much as they were for the previous saga, because it is still too muddy and they haven't created the rules for what it is.
01:05:34
Speaker
I agree with you. For the most part, I liked Multiverse of Madness. I know that's kind of a controversial take now, apparently, but I enjoyed it for the most part. But I agree. That was a movie where I felt like for a movie called The Multiverse of Madness, I was expecting a whole lot of stuff to deal with the multiverse, and it just kind of wasn't.
01:05:56
Speaker
Well, yeah, I mean, like I said, I very much I want a film or a show to sit me down and speak to me in plain terms and tell me how does the MCU's version of the multiverse work? Because there's been no firm answers on it. You know, the dancer and multiverses, alternate universes, different dimensions, but there's never any inkling. Is that all the same thing? Are you talking about the same thing there? Are you using different words to describe the same thing? And it makes it difficult to understand now.
01:06:24
Speaker
I'm sure much like yourself being an avid geek can follow of these things. I've got my own head cannon with all the information they've given me and I can make it work in my head, understand what they're doing. But I also appreciate that I'm
01:06:36
Speaker
I'm not the average moviegoer. It's just something you do need to kind of break it down a little bit for them. Very quick sidebar, 100% agree with you with Multiverse of Madness. I think it's a terrific film. This is another movie that almost every guest we've had on podcast 616 is unhappy with Multiverse of Madness. They just do not like it. I think I found maybe one or two guests over the last year who've enjoyed it as well.
01:07:03
Speaker
but um yeah well i'm scheduled to be on soon so i'll be i'm one of the pro column so you'll have one at least who's been on it well i mean ashley and i don't want to i don't want to reduce this to this but it feels like there's a division of a line between our male guests and our female guests and our female guests really don't like it because of the treatment of Wanda in that movie and the way that her niece is used as a weapon
Character Utilization in Doctor Strange
01:07:31
Speaker
And I totally get it. I totally understand where they're coming from. And there's a frequent guest, she's an Irish journalist and entertainment journalist at Di Malumbi. And she kind of put it most eloquently on the podcast I felt and really helped me to understand what it was that didn't click for her. And then afterwards, I still disagree. It still works for me. I get enough out of it.
01:07:56
Speaker
And I don't know about you Perry, but I still view it as the midway point of Wanda's story. I mean, if this is the end of her story, I think all the criticisms are correct. You know, they've wasted that character and they've really let her down from a writing standpoint. But this is the Marvel Cinematic Universe where I've been trained to understand that this is just part one or part two of her story. So a year or two from now, if there's no other Wanda projects, then I think it's a problem. But at the moment, no, I'm quite happy to wait and see what the next one comes.
01:08:25
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I totally get the that's my biggest criticism of the movie is what they did with Wanda. And but I think there's, I'm not as like, I know some people have even Elizabeth Olsen has said this, she said that, you know, she felt that multiverse of madness, they didn't, they didn't know what had happened in WandaVision, they just, and my take on it. And I'd said this when we've done the episode on it with Will Short was that it was
01:08:49
Speaker
To me, it felt like she had gotten to the end of WandaVision. She knows she has this new power, and now she's trying to learn how to use it, and then she starts exploring the Darkhold. My take on everything that she does in Multiverse of Man is she's being corrupted by the Darkhold, and it's a different... The movie did not do a good job explaining that, and maybe that wasn't exactly their intention either. That's totally fair, but I think that's how my headcanon explained that.
01:09:18
Speaker
Yeah, I'm exactly the same. I also would say, I don't think Sam Raimi knows what a WandaVision is. I think he was given maybe a sheet with maybe like 10 bullet points on it that explained what happened in that show. But I think what really happened to Sam Raimi came on board and they told him, right, you've got this terrifying ultimate power level witch with the Book of the Dead in her possession. And that's all Sam Raimi heard. Excellent. What a great villain. I'm going to use that.
01:09:45
Speaker
And so the Sam Raimi neared in me was just very forgiving of that interpretation of evil Wanda. And I have a lot of confidence in them because they know how popular a character Wanda is. So I've got every confidence in them that that's something that they'll address down the line. So I'll give them the opportunity to do so before I get to to grumpy about it.
01:10:05
Speaker
All right, now let's talk about Kaisilius in this movie because you'd mentioned that Rachel McAdams and how and I agree with you. I think she's kind of for an actress as talented as she is. I feel like she is a little bit wasted in the MCU. I feel like she could have, you know, she could have been like the Invisible Woman now or something like that, like, and that would have been incredible. But and but like, I feel like the bigger waste is Mads Mikkelsen. Like, I mean, this guy is just such an incredible actor.
01:10:34
Speaker
When we're talking now, bringing in the Fantastic Four, and people are talking about, well, who should play Doom? And I'm like, we had the perfect fucking actor for Doom right there, and we wasted him on this throwaway character.
01:10:46
Speaker
Yeah, so when I was doing my notes for this show, that was what I'd written down. Above all else, the main issue in this film is Kaecilius because it's so flimsy a character. There's nothing to grab on to there. I think also Chewetel Ejiofor's Baron Waldo suffers from this as well.
01:11:05
Speaker
The difference is, Mordo gets more screen time and more interaction with Strange, and so the strength of that actor kind of puts all the – he does all the heavy lifting for that character rather than the script. So I think Mordo can really do that. And we can also have him come back too. He survives. So we get him in – well, we get a variant in Multiverse Evasion. We still have this –
01:11:27
Speaker
the, I don't know what universe this is. I know some called it 616. Others have called it a different one. So I'm not sure what exactly it is. But it's, it's, you know, he's, he's still out there. We can, he still can come back so we can see more of him. So yeah, I totally agree with that. And yeah, sorry, go ahead. I actually think the entire film
01:11:48
Speaker
It's got three or four actors that are utterly wasted, I think. True to the age of four, I think, does okay with what's there, but there's not enough. Rachel McAdams,
01:12:01
Speaker
I really don't understand why she was casting this role if they didn't have bigger plans for her, because it's so slight. There's nothing to it. I think another actor who's criminally wasted here is Michael Stilberg, as strange as rival Doctor.
01:12:19
Speaker
Michael Stilberg is a phenomenal actor. You want to talk about guys who could play Dr. Doom? I think Michael Stilberg would have been a great Dr. Doom as well. I think he's got such range, he's such an intense actor. Again, here it's so, you could have cast anyone in that role and it would have made no difference because there's nothing to it.
01:12:38
Speaker
And yeah, the biggest, the most criminal waste is Mads Mikkelsen, who is one of my all-time favourite actors. Hannibal is one of my favourite shows, and definitely my top five.
01:12:50
Speaker
And when I heard he was in this, I was so excited. I thought, excellent, this is what we need, you know, a proper, because Mads Mikkelsen can do scary very well when he wants to. He's got such range, but I can't grip on to anything that he does because I think his backstory is explained in maybe two sentences when Mordo's talking about him. And even then it's very vague. It's like, oh, yeah, you know, he disagrees with the ancient one's teachings and he discovered something that he didn't like.
01:13:20
Speaker
and then he turned on her. So, okay, but I need more than that. And similarly, Mickelson's at, let's say the range that he's got means that he's very good when he's on screen. He delivers the sort of the funny one liners that we have as well quite well. I think he's very good at that.
01:13:38
Speaker
It's a ridiculous exchange, but I still laugh about the Mr. Doctor thing. It makes no sense. You're clearly part of the real world. You know how these naming conventions work, but it's still funny.
01:13:51
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And again, I think it's Mickelson's delivery of the line that kind of makes it work. I've used this phrase a few things, but it's true. It's the matter of fact. It's strange. Who am I to judge? It's very missive of it. I love it. But yeah, it's baffling, isn't it, that they
Villains and Character Development
01:14:12
Speaker
didn't build. I really like Dormammu. And I
01:14:16
Speaker
I'm a big HP Lovecraft fan, right? I love the idea of these terrifying, unknowable ancient gods, you know, just out with their realm of reality, who could smite us all in a heartbeat if they were ever given access to it. All that stuff I find sort of the existential dread of that, I find brilliantly terrifying. And Dormammu is a villain, it's brilliant, and
01:14:38
Speaker
But you don't really get any sense of Kycelius' overall plan. He wants everybody in the world to join the dark dimension. But why? What's your end goal? To live forever? It's all so nebulous, I think. I don't think it really works. Yeah, I agree. And I feel like, too, if you're going to get Mads Mikkelsen in your movie,
01:15:03
Speaker
He should have been Dormammu, like make Dormammu them. I feel like as much as I like how this movie set up the idea of magic and the MCU, I feel like its biggest failing is that it's too much setup. And it feels like they're setting up too much stuff for sequels with Mordo, with Dormammu, and it's just it's not explored enough in this movie. And I think I would have liked a little bit less setup, a little bit more active stuff happening in this movie.
01:15:30
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's fair. The more of the stuff you mentioned in particular, his character arc here doesn't quite make sense. I don't really buy his ultimate heel turn where he goes full villain at the end, because I don't really think there's enough in the film to justify it. He turns on the ancient one, or her methodology
01:15:53
Speaker
It's not really explained well enough, you know, that she's drawing power from the dark dimension. That's never really explained why it's such a terrible thing. Do you know what I mean? As an audience, we're just meant to accept that that's the case. Whereas Wong and Strange don't really bat an eye with that. They just kind of accept it. Well, I mean, the whole idea of like, you know, we preserve the natural law and it's like,
01:16:14
Speaker
No, you don't. It doesn't make sense to me at all. I'm like, you're freaking sorcerers. You're not preserving the natural law. You're opening portals to Mount Everest and you're jumping all around the place with these magic boots. You're not preserving natural law at all. And I feel like they're
01:16:33
Speaker
There is a way to explore that, right? The idea of like, well, yes, we bend the rules so that somebody else can't break them. There's a way to do that, but I don't think the, I think you're right. I don't think the movie really sold that the ancient one took that too far. There wasn't enough to find out about why she took it too far, why what she did is a problem compared to what they're doing. Like I did not get that sense at all.
01:16:55
Speaker
So yeah, that was a weakness for me, was the whole idea of the ancient one, her corruption, or whatever it was. I don't even know how to really describe it, because it's just so poorly defined in the movie. Yeah, yeah. I also think that the delay between this movie and the sequel kind of robbed the bad and mortal story of any agency or any interest whatsoever, because they seem to just have dropped that, don't they, in between films?
01:17:27
Speaker
The idea of Mordo traveling the world and taking on wizards, removing the power because he feels there's too much magic in the world. I don't think the film sells it well enough, but it is a nice hook to leave it on for when we're going to return to him and find out what came next. So I do find that quite interesting that that seems to have just been forgotten about because they don't have enough time or the studio has moved on in a different direction.
01:17:53
Speaker
Again, as much as I like Multiverse of Madness, it's a big disappointment to me that Derrickson didn't come back for the sequel because I think Multiverse of Madness was billed as the MCU's first horror movie, and it's not really. You know, it kind of has moments in there, but it doesn't quite land there for me. I think Derrickson maybe would have done more with that Mordo plot line, like he'd have tied that into the nightmare story that he wanted to do as well.
01:18:17
Speaker
So, I mean, that does kind of leave me quite disappointed. There was an interesting thread as well that's brought up in the film, but they don't really focus on, which is the revelation to Strange about maybe two thirds of the way through the film that, well, it's not enough to come to Camartage and learn these skills. You're also expected to become like a warrior, you know, to help repel these forces of magic.
01:18:42
Speaker
And he's rightfully shocked by this. I'm a dog and I'm not here to kill people. And that's such a great idea, but it's so half formed in the movie. And again, you just think maybe a sequel that was a bit closer to this one, maybe would have tied into those themes a little better and carried that notion forward because
Speculation on Future Marvel Projects
01:19:03
Speaker
And Strange's rejection of that is very quickly just undone. He says, I don't want to do that. And then by the end of the film, well, actually, it's OK. I will do that. It's fine. And I just I feel like they need to do a bit more legwork to make that kind of land for me. And I don't think it quite hits. You know, there are a few things in there that you'd said. And I'm on the one hand, I would have loved to see more stuff from Scott Derrickson. On the other hand, I
01:19:29
Speaker
Sam Raimi is just like the perfect director for Doctor Strange, right? He's such a superhero fan. He's such a fan of comic books. And he's such a fan of horror. And like, this is like the perfect Doctor Strange, the perfect character to meld those two loves for him of his together. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, his spider movies are classic, but I did feel like his, his style of humor does not work for Spider Man at all.
01:19:50
Speaker
Whereas it it works for something in Doctor Strange because it's this, you know, you can do like the can't be horror human Doctor Strange and it works. It works. Yeah. Scott Derrickson. I I think he and I would love to see Scott Derrickson do more stuff for Marvel. You know what I would love to see is, you know, forget about the the Hellstorm TV show, have him do like a Hellstorm Son of Satan movie or something like that. I think I would love to see that. That would be it. And then he could also play with these because I think
01:20:18
Speaker
A character like Damon Hellstrom would be much closer to the kind of character that he'd have a better handle on.
01:20:32
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with you too. My biggest problem with Multiverse of Madness is that it's not a Doctor Strange movie. It should have been called Multiverse of Madness featuring Doctor Strange or something like that. Because it does not feel like a Doctor Strange movie. He feels almost like a supporting character in some senses.
01:20:53
Speaker
Yeah, it feels and I feel like I would have much preferred as much as I do like a lot in multiverse of madness I would have rather it was just called multiverse of madness and billed as like a dr. Strange scarlet witch crossover or something like that and then he also had like a dr. Strange to to go along with it.
01:21:13
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a good idea. What do you make of the rumors kind of circulating at the moment that Sam Raimi might be being tapped up to do the Secret Wars movie in a couple of years? I've seen that report in a few different outlets. I have not heard about that, but I don't know. I feel like
01:21:36
Speaker
I'm not so sure if that would work. I mean, I could be proven wrong because, you know, the Russo's were their only thing they had been known for was arrested development and community before they did, you know, with your soldiers. So so you never know. But like my gut instinct is that he doesn't feel like the best fit for for Secret Wars. He doesn't feel like the best fit for like a big multiversal sci fi thing. I'm not sure who would be either at the same time. So I'm not sure.
01:22:00
Speaker
So I don't know who I would rather see him doing that. But I'm just biased because I'd rather see him get to do a proper Doctor Strange movie. Yeah.
01:22:09
Speaker
I mean, on one hand, as I said, the Raimi fanboy in me thinks, yeah, give him, let me see what he does with that, because that'd be fascinating to see what, I mean, what does Sam Raimi's Avengers movie look like? You know, I don't really know where to begin with that. That's fascinating. But I can, I still secretly hope that they maybe got an eye on Ryan Coogler for that movie, because he's a director who even, even out with the Black Panther movies, he's a director that I've got a lot of time for. I think you're a really interesting guy.
01:22:37
Speaker
and he's someone I think would bring a really unique flavour to that film.
01:22:43
Speaker
Again, I don't really know I have a preferred director, but the idea of Raymee excites me just because it feels like it shouldn't work. But then, yeah, I've got confidence in him to bring something unique to the table. So I'd be fascinated to see if it does come to pass. It'd be interesting to see. I wouldn't say no to it, obviously, right? But my preference would be for him to do a proper Doctor Strange movie, like have him
01:23:08
Speaker
go up again, have him really lean into the horror stuff, have him go up against nightmare and or something like that, like, like, yeah, I would. I mean, now that we've got Cleo and, you know, at the end of Multiverse of Madness, I would really love to see like how he deals with that. And, you know, Charlize Theron is Cleo is just like perfect.
01:23:27
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. It's great casting. It'd just be interesting. Let's say that, I mean, where we go from here is fascinating, isn't it? Because you don't really know when you'll see Doctor Strange again in the MCU. And I like that he's just kind of out there and you could literally show up in any of the next phase worth of movies. So I think it'd be fascinating to see where he comes.
01:23:47
Speaker
The other thing I wanted to touch on was just the ending of this film, or the actual sort of like the final set piece. Just when we were talking about the sort of unique stuff that Derrickson brings to this movie, the balls on the guy to kind of to do that finale where like, you know, we're used to the big Marvel showdown, you know, fisticuffs, crazy fight scenes, all that stuff. And he totally undercuts it by having screens show up after the battle has already been lost.
01:24:14
Speaker
And then rather than indulge in the battle and fight everyone, he just reverses everything that we've seen. He just undoes the damage that's been caused. And again, visually, it looks amazing. I mean, that scene is astounding as he kind of rebuilds the sanctum and the destroyed city. And then, you know,
01:24:33
Speaker
we end on that magnificent showdown between Strange and Dormammu and the phrase Dormammu I have come to bargain into my brain from watching this film so many things and it's fun.
01:24:46
Speaker
They allow strangers intellect to defeat the villain rather than any power or strength. He puts them in a position that he can't possibly win. And again, there aren't a lot of Marvel movies that would have the courage of the conviction to end like that. The whole film is about Strange adapting to his new life and what he's become, but not betraying or letting go of his intellect or his beliefs.
01:25:12
Speaker
And so rather than fighting everyone and killing all these bad guys, the way he wins our series today is not by killing the villains, but by outsmarting them and putting them in an unwinnable position.
01:25:27
Speaker
Paradox you have with the doctor strange origin movie because dr. Strangers role in the marvel universe is that he's supposed to be the The smart guy the one you go to when when all other hope is lost when you have no other when you have we have all these unanswered questions He's supposed to be the one who has the experience and the knowledge to show you what to do next
01:25:45
Speaker
And how do you do that when he's just started out? How do you do that when he's just had an origin story? Those two things don't quite work. Why is he tapped as Sorcerer Supreme when there are other people who've been training for years? And this movie gives you that perfect explanation. Well, he was trapped in this time loop. So he had how many years of experience learning how to use magic in that time loop. And it gives you that perfect explanation right there. That's how he's able to get to this level so quickly.
01:26:13
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting as
Timeline and Continuity in Doctor Strange
01:26:15
Speaker
well. That's another slight issue I have with the film that is just that it's difficult to know how much time has passed from his car accident to the end of the movie, you know, I mean, because I've got you've got to imagine it's been several years, you know, because he's completely I mean, the mess that his hands were in.
01:26:32
Speaker
And that is a proper horror movie moment, actually, when he wakes up from his accident and he looks at his hands. The body horror imagery there is genuinely just saying shibbles through me. Like, yeah, because and also, too, I keep getting hung up on the line when he's in the car and he's looking through all those patients. And one of the patients is a 35 year old, you know,
01:26:56
Speaker
military soldier who was who died in experimental armor. And I'm just like, at first, when that movie came out, I remember everyone saying, Oh, they're talking about roadie and civil war. And and now I'm thinking about it. I'm just like, maybe they're talking about the the guys at the beginning of Iron Man two when he's going through and he's showing all the
01:27:13
Speaker
the footage of the testing that I mean like and that would that would actually fit in well and you're right that could have been it would also explain why he's not why he's so surprised about the multiverse stuff and all this because in a world where New York has been invaded by space aliens you think this wouldn't be as surprising
01:27:32
Speaker
I know Marvel keeps... But then we have the problem too in Endgame when Hulk goes to meet the Ancient One and she says, no, Stephen Strange is operating five blocks away from right now. And I'm just like, yeah, I think I would have probably had it where he was in Commortage at that time or something would have made more sense. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was going to say, Marvel are continually threatening to release this official timeline that they heat gun on about. They said they've got a book coming and I actually
01:28:00
Speaker
I can't wait to read it because I don't know how it can make any sense at all. I think they've done a good job at keeping it nicely vague, where you can kind of, again, your own head cannon will kind of keep you right and you can hand wave things away that don't quite make sense and that's fine.
01:28:16
Speaker
So I am looking forward to seeing them put it down on paper and commit to telling us, right, this is when each thing happens and how they happen in relation to one another. Because, yeah, I don't really think it adds up. But, yeah, I remain open-minded and I look forward to seeing it.
01:28:32
Speaker
But I think that's the problem anytime you're doing these superhero things. DC continuity is just a complete mess. It's just like with all these different crises, you never know what is in continuity, what is not. I think people get way too hung up on continuity. And I think it would work better if people just had more of a vague idea instead of trying to find a definitive way to explain all this stuff.
01:28:57
Speaker
Yeah, like I said, for me, I've got my own vague head cannon of how it all connects. And that's enough. I think the film largely does enough to give you that. I just think this movie in particular, because time is the theme of the film, isn't it? The recurring beats that happen. And it feels like it should have been a long time from point A to point B. But it's hard to get an engage from that. Because obviously, when he eventually sees Christine again,
01:29:26
Speaker
her reaction to him is very much that she hasn't seen him for years. It's been a long time since she's seen him. And again, he is quite proficient with his magical skills by a certain point in the film. And it's hard to know how long he's been there. He's learning Sanskrit, and he's memorizing all these spells. So I don't know. I don't think it's a huge feeling in the film, but it is something that I always wonder every time I go back to it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
01:29:55
Speaker
I'm of two minds of the Time Stone's use here. On the one hand, I think they did find a really clever way to use it. And like we said with him locking him and Dormammu in the time loop and everything and the whole rebuilding that he does, all of that works really well. But at the same time, I feel like there's, you lose something from the lore by having the Eye of Agamotto just be the Time Stone instead of being its own thing.
01:30:19
Speaker
Yeah. Again, it goes back to that thing we talked about earlier about what you bring to it as a moviegoer versus what you bring to it as a comics fan. And again, if someone who wasn't that familiar with Doctor Strange and his mythos, I don't really think I bat in an eyelid. In fact, before the movie had begun, I was convinced that that's what was going to be in the Isle of Agamotto, would be an Infinity Stone, because I remember at that point in the Infinity Saga,
01:30:46
Speaker
there was a lot of fun and sort of waiting to see when the next stone would show up and where it would show up. And it did feel like the time stone was a bit of a no brainer to have, you know, be one of Dr. Strangers in his sort of toolbox. So yeah, when, when, when Wong kind of fairly heavy handedly, you know, explains that it's an infinity stone and Steven's like, what, what's an infinity stone? You know, it's a bit, it's a bit too on the nose, but it's okay. So, you know, I don't mind it being used there. And again,
01:31:33
Speaker
Well, I mean, yeah, I take on board what you mean about the long term planning here, because even I even found the use of the phrase multiverse in this film to be a bit sort of like squinting my eyes slightly at that and raising an eyebrow. Really, you're talking about multiverse, but are you talking about the mirror universe and the dark dimension? Is that what you're talking about when you say that? Yeah, I was thinking the same thing as we were watching it last night.
01:31:40
Speaker
that pays off really well when we get to Infinity Ward and Endgame.
01:31:59
Speaker
And I do think that they're maybe trying to retroactively fit that in to mean what they want it to mean. And again, I've got no issue with the films doing that, but it just further muddies what the multiverse is within the confines of the MCU.
01:32:16
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's probably why it's better to keep it vague, as opposed to having some explicit explanation of it. Yeah, I think that's pretty much all to say about Dr. Strange. Yeah. I mean, most there are definite issues that I have with this movie. But most of all, I think it is. Overall, I think I do prefer this as
01:32:36
Speaker
among the origin story movies. This is definitely one of my favorites. And it, and Cumberbatch just does such a good job of making strange and appealing character, which even in the comics is hard to do. Like he's always, he's always seems better as a supporting character as opposed to being like a headlining character himself. But Cumberbatch does a really good job of making him work here.
01:32:58
Speaker
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think that's one of the movie strengths is its casting of Cumberbatch in the title role. Obviously, I think it's quite well known that Derrickson's first choice for the role was
01:33:11
Speaker
Ethan Hawke, that's who had been offered the role and he turned it down at that point. And I would like, that's kind of like one of the sort of the great lost Marvel projects because I think Ethan Hawke would have been wonderful in very different ways. He'd have done something different with the character. But yeah, the film that they give us I think is really good.
01:33:31
Speaker
I'm always amazed that it gets forgotten about when people are talking about the great origin stories in Margaret, because it really does feel like it's kind of the black sheep of the origin story family. Because every time I go back to it, I'm always amazed at how good it is and how... Do you know what I mean? I almost trick myself. I always think, because everyone, no one else talks about it, and you know, it's kind of dismissed often. I think I myself, some things in my head think, oh, maybe it's not as good as I remember it.
01:33:59
Speaker
And then I go back to it and think, no, no, actually, yeah, it's really, really good. It stands up really well. And it gives you a good, a good grounding for that character because it was so important that he landed well. Never mind the film. It was so important that he landed well because
01:34:15
Speaker
that point they already I think had penned him in as being one of the more pivotal characters in Infinity War. But I think if he doesn't hit the ground running here, then that's a big rethink that they need to do. So yeah, I recommend this film to a lot of people. It's a lovely place to jump into the MCU. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's all well said. There's one other thing I wanted to mention about it, but I'm drawing a blank right now and I'll probably remember it as soon as we stop recording.
01:34:41
Speaker
The only other thing we haven't really spoken about is the first post-credits thing, which is when Thor comes a calling to the Sanctum Symphony. And I remember in the cinema, it's just so much fun. I just love seeing Strange interact with these characters, and it's brilliant. And when we get that scene, when it eventually does show up in Ragnarok, it's so superfluous and unnecessary.
01:35:07
Speaker
But I don't care because I love that scene. It's so great. Yeah. I can spend I'm happy to spend time in the company and these characters doing that just sitting and talking. I don't care if it feels like we're kind of squeezing them in when they don't need to be there. It's like that's part of the fun of having a universe with that kind of interconnectivity, isn't it? That you can't let people show up at any point from other films. And, you know, I think I think it's a terrific amount.
01:35:29
Speaker
It also makes sense because, you know, the whole point of the the sorcerers that they're supposed to be guarding the this plane of existence. So, you know, the guy who caused an alien invasion suddenly pops up again. The sorcerers are probably going to want to want to have a word with them. So that makes that totally made sense for me. And it's a great way to kind of show
01:35:48
Speaker
this role that Strange has in the MCU now, where he's the guy you go to when, you know, when weird shit happens. So I thought that it worked great. I loved it. It felt like something just out of a comic book. It's like, oh, fuck, what do we do now? Let's go to Dr. Strange. And although one my big question is what happened to his yellow gloves? Because we we see them in there and we never see him again.
01:36:10
Speaker
I suspect that they were made with derision, a focus group somewhere, and they just decided, yep, no more gloves. Let's just get rid of them. Because I actually think it does look a little bit too much like a costume at that point when he's got those gloves on, you know? And I get, obviously, the idea of him wanting to hide his hands and what's happened to him. But it's much more elegant, I think, without those big gaudy, yellow gloves. Yeah. I think they could have done a better job on the gloves, I think. But it would have been interesting to see him pop back up.
01:36:41
Speaker
But yeah, and overall, I think it's a great movie. There's some issues as to where all this fits in over how long of a time period it takes. And obviously, my stuff with the time zone. Oh, and just a little Easter egg. I'm not sure if you caught the guy who was the guardian of the sanctum in New York.
01:37:04
Speaker
Oh, no, I don't think I did. So it's Daniel Drum. He's the he's the brother of Jericho Drum, and Jericho Drum becomes Brother Voodoo in the comics. Later, Dr. Voodoo. Yes, that was a nice little Easter egg. I wonder if that's a character that they'll touch. Dr. Voodoo, that feels a little bit. I wonder. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a way to do it. I think there's a way to there's a way to do all this stuff like they were able to do the Mandarin. So I think Dr. Voodoo would not be too much of a true.
01:37:35
Speaker
I hope they get to get around to it at some point. I think that'd be interesting. Uh, might make for a good Disney play, especially now that we're getting more of the horror stuff with like, you know, the, the Halloween special with werewolf by night and man thing was in that too. We're supposedly getting blade at some point we'll see. I saw that the, um, there was, uh, there was another one of those like, um, investor things where there was an image leaked and I've seen it in two or three other places where there was a look at, uh, uh,
01:38:02
Speaker
a logo for a TV show called Tales from the Darkhold. That's a great idea for a Halloween special for one of us. Give us like a one hour, like three short stories anthology horror. I think that'd be perfect. Oh yeah. That would be really cool. Yeah. I love Marvel horror. I would love to see them do more with that. And especially now that, you know,
01:38:26
Speaker
Marvel TV is done. I want to see Hellstorm adapted properly. I want to see Ghost Rider come back in. So I think those things would be so much fun to see. Yeah, Ghost Rider's the one I'm holding out hope for because I quite liked his use in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. I thought the representation there was really good. But just give me a Ghost Rider, even if it's a one shot, one of those special presentations, give me that. And then we can show up again in another movie somewhere down the road. But yeah, I'd be happy to see that.
01:38:56
Speaker
My only issue with his portrayal in the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. is I prefer the Johnny Blaze ghostwriter to the Robbie Reyes one. That's the only thing. But otherwise, I thought it was... And then they let the door open for John Blaze in that anyway when they introduced him. Yeah, that's right. That's right. I don't know. Maybe we'll see Nick Cage pop up in Secret Wars. I think I'm in Secret Wars, Perry. I think everybody who's alive at any point would be in Secret Wars. So yeah, I'm sure Nick Cage will show up at some point.
Closing Remarks and Social Media Invites
01:39:26
Speaker
Well, apparently he appears in, this is a bit of a spoiler, but apparently he appears in a scene in the new Flash movie.
01:39:33
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I will go see the new Flash movie. I've kind of hummed and hard about it for a long time. My 16 year old daughter. Do you know what? Full credit to her. She put her foot down and she doesn't want to see it because of all the Ezra Miller stuff. And I totally respect that. But I'll be honest, the comic book geek in me can't resist Michael Keaton's Batman. I'll go for that.
01:39:59
Speaker
I'm with you. I'm with you 100%. Like, my hatred of Ezra Miller is outweighed by my love of seeing Michael Keaton on the big screen as Batman one last time. I wish I could hold on to my principles a little bit better than my daughter does, but I do want to see Michael Keaton one last time. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Especially because it doesn't look like we'll be getting Batman begins. Or Batman Beyond, I mean. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's true.
01:40:23
Speaker
All right, you. Well, thanks so much for coming on. I'm glad we were able to get this organized because with you, with you in the UK, me in Japan, we had some trouble trying to trying to schedule times here, but I'm glad we were able to make it happen. So why don't you tell people where they can find your stuff?
01:40:39
Speaker
Yeah, no, absolutely. Listen, thanks so much for having me on. It's been a lot of fun. This is a movie I've been desperate to talk about for a long time, but we've never had an excuse on the podcast to get to it. So thank you very much for letting me come on and talk about it. So yeah, if you're looking for me, the best place to find me is on Twitter. I am over there at angryscotsman81.
01:40:56
Speaker
That's where all my links will be for my writing. I also can be found on the We Made This Network. I'm the co-host, as I said earlier, of podcast 616, Marvel Cinematic Universe podcast, and also of Vampire Videos, which I co-host with Dan Owen.
01:41:13
Speaker
That's just entering creaky. I think we're just about to end our third season on vampire videos, which is crazy. And we've covered so many great films and yeah, we've got season four pretty much locked down as well. So lots more to come there. So yeah, please reach out, give me a shout if you want to hear any more of my insane ramblings and I'll be happy to share them with you.
01:41:33
Speaker
Okay, great, and we'll have links to all that stuff in the show notes. As for us, we are SuperheroCinephiles.com, SuperCinemapod on Twitter and Instagram. Remember, you subscribe to the Patreon page, you get these episodes a week in advance, no ads. Plus, you get access to the Superhero Cinephiles Book Club, where once a month we talk about comic books and graphic novels, all of that for just a dollar a month, so not too much that's gonna break your bank. Anyway, thanks so much for listening, and we will talk to you next time.