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BONUS (12b): Going Deeper With Dr. Meghan Larissa Good
190 Plays4 years ago
In this bonus episode, Jill Devine asks Dr. Meghan Larissa Good the questions she had while listening to Episode 12.
*The app Laura Fleetwood mentioned in this episode is called Dwell. https://dwellapp.io/
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Normal Goes A Long Way is brought to you by Messiah St. Charles: https://messiahstcharles.org/
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Transcript
Introduction: Jill's Faith Journey
00:00:00
Speaker
The following podcast is a Jill Devine Media production. Christianity has become known for judgy people, strange words, ancient stories, confusing rules, and a members-only mindset. This is why I stayed away from the church for so long, but it's not supposed to be that way. I'm Jill Devine, a former radio personality with three tattoos, a love for a good tequila, and who's never read the entire Bible.
00:00:24
Speaker
Yet here I am hosting a podcast about faith. The Normal Goes Along Way podcast is your home for real conversations with real people using real language about how faith and real life intersect. Welcome to the conversation.
00:00:40
Speaker
We are back in the studio today with Megan Larissa Good with the follow-up episode where Jill is going to ask the questions that she had as she listened in to Megan and I talk about her book, The Bible Unwrapped. Jill, take it away.
Jill's Bible Experience and Challenges
00:00:57
Speaker
Well, a little bit of a background for you, Megan. I am new to the faith journey. It's been a part of my life, but actually practicing it and getting into it more now. And I've never read the Bible. I am reading it now. So the conversation that you and Laura had really, really, really spoke to me.
00:01:23
Speaker
There are a bunch of things that I want to get into and bring up and I feel like I'm going to go in all kinds of different orders. So hopefully it makes sense. One of the things that you did end on with the conversation with Laura was the violence aspect and
00:01:45
Speaker
I'm also going to back up and say how you were also talking about how some people don't like to write in their Bible, but some people do. The Bible that I do write in, and there have been plenty of passages where I will circle them and say, how could God do this? How could he let this happen?
Viewing the Bible Through Jesus' Lens
00:02:06
Speaker
Like just these brutal, violent stories or narratives.
00:02:15
Speaker
That has been a hard one for me. Totally understandable. So I appreciate the advice that you gave, and not just on that, but also in
00:02:27
Speaker
the way that we view the Bible, to look at it through the lens of Jesus. That spoke to me a lot as well. I think probably one of the things that I wrestle with is in life, as I get older, I see that there's a lot of gray. I really do. I feel like I have come so far from being the person that sees black and white
00:02:52
Speaker
to seeing gray. However, with my type of personality, I am the type A personality. Things need to be in order and organized and I could see where people like me can dive into the Bible and I have done this a few times where
00:03:13
Speaker
we do look at the text as rules, or we do look at the text and say that this is exactly the way it should be, and we're not going to other people to interpret that. So that's something that I also am still struggling with. And I wrote down, how do we talk to people that do see this text as just rules, not a narrative, not poems?
Complexity and Growth in Faith
00:03:38
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think we can begin by,
00:03:42
Speaker
It's really easy. I feel like most of us live on a pendulum, right? We react to one excess by swinging to the opposite excess. So just beginning in relation to those people by understanding the worst thing in the world is not obeying the thing you think God said. You know, that's not a bad place to begin. And in fact, there's kind of a developmental stage that most of us go through as Christians where we do begin, like things look a little bit clearer. We're not comfortable with ambiguity.
00:04:10
Speaker
yet and certainly that's a part of my own story. And there's something good about that stage of where we take what looks to be very clear to us and we just as passionately and determinedly as we can, we try to follow what Jesus said.
00:04:27
Speaker
But there also will probably come moments for many of us when we start to realize there are situations in life that begin to look more complex, that different principles enter into in Scripture, and it's no longer exactly clear to us which rule applies. Maybe it feels like multiple ones do, and they're pulling us in different directions.
00:04:50
Speaker
So I think it's very difficult to force other people into that moment of kind of crisis where we realize the world is more complicated.
Navigating Difficult Passages
00:04:58
Speaker
I think it's more important if we're talking right now about somebody else that you're concerned about how they read. It's more important to as a person who begins to recognize complexity and ambiguity that within that you continue to seek to live faithfully even within that greater complexity and that you are
00:05:21
Speaker
showing people there is a path forward of faithfulness so that they have someone to talk to, to look to, and a sense of possibilities open when something arises in life that doesn't fit the neat boxes they already had. So I find I've not been very successful in forcing people into that moment, but I have seen major change happen when life itself kind of takes a turn or presents a question to say, there's a different way of thinking about this.
00:05:49
Speaker
on that when we talk about getting stuck on certain passages and what they mean. And you had said, don't get stuck on those, but focus on what Jesus is saying. And I don't know, maybe could you talk about that a little bit more so that maybe there's something that I read and I am stuck on. And so I'm trying to now take what you said, but I need to apply that.
Balancing Gospels and Texts
00:06:17
Speaker
Sure.
00:06:18
Speaker
This is not my analogy, but I find it very helpful. I've heard someone say that interpreting the Bible is kind of like doing a crossword puzzle. Like nobody does crosswords exactly in order. You go in and you kind of fill in the easy answers first. And when you find something that's just completely baffling to you that you don't know what to do with, you leave that aside. And you hope that once you've filled in the other pieces, it becomes clearer. You have more clues about what's in the one you didn't get.
00:06:45
Speaker
And I think no matter what stage you are, you know, I've been studying the Bible personally and professionally for decades and there are still things that puzzle me more than others. But you work your way backwards over time by starting with the clearer and working toward the more puzzling. So that's one piece of it is that's why we don't wanna get stuck and like stop the crossword just because we hit one that we don't know the answer to. But practically another thing that I find very helpful is in terms of like,
00:07:14
Speaker
what order I read the Bible in, I like to alternate between Gospels and other Bible texts. So I might read Matthew and then Genesis and Mark and then Exodus and Luke and then Leviticus and kind of go back and forth between the teachings of Jesus and anything else I'm reading. And the reason for that is it helps me anchor my questions, anchor the things I don't understand, anchor how I'm reading the rest of the Bible in
00:07:42
Speaker
Jesus's revelation of who God is. So when those questions come up for me in different stories and I'm like, I do not know what to do with this. I have fresh in my mind what Jesus has said and done to reveal God and to reveal God's desires to kind of bring to that and compare to any conclusions I'm going to draw. The thing that I wrote down too about the different interpretations
00:08:07
Speaker
So I admittedly am late to reading the shack. I am almost done. I was so close last night, but my eyes just had to give away. And I was talking to my boss about it because I was saying that in this particular moment of where I am, I am doing some
00:08:32
Speaker
really cool stuff at work, but it's the first time I'm doing it and I am normally a stressor. I still am a stressor, but reading this book has really taught me to just be like, give it to God. You've got to trust God more. You've got to talk to God. You have to just keep talking to God.
00:08:50
Speaker
And he laughed and he said, you know, what's funny is that when the, what I got out of that book is to not treat God so seriously, meaning like she, spoiler alert, if you haven't read it, but like in the book it's,
00:09:06
Speaker
a large black woman, like that you don't have to treat God so seriously. And it really has been striking to me about these interpretations that people have, not just with the Bible, but just in life, like how it can be so different the way that you read something versus the way I read something. And that could be good and bad. Yeah. Yeah.
00:09:31
Speaker
Well, when I was taking preaching in seminary, I had a professor who used to say, when you preach the Bible, it's sort of like you take a passage as like a diamond, and you hold it up to the light, and there are rays of light of different colors that refract in different directions.
00:09:49
Speaker
And sometimes I think we treat these differences interpretation as if everything is a high stakes battle with one right answer. But the beauty of narrative and poetry in particular is, you know, commands might have one clear meaning, but narrative and poetry often have many, many things they open up.
Choosing the Right Bible and Study Methods
00:10:07
Speaker
So rather than putting on all the pressure as if like, there's only one proper ray of light,
00:10:13
Speaker
Like you might consider as you come in that there's a possibility that when you're holding this story up to the light and light is flying off in multiple directions and that there might be many ways the story could be embraced. And that is part of the richness of narrative and poetry. And that's why genre is important because not everything is just about, there's one answer. I am so glad you said that. Like I feel this,
00:10:41
Speaker
weight being lifted off of my shoulder like just hearing you and Laura talk and then us talking now because so many times you hear that this is the way it should be read. This is the way it's interpreted. This is the way things are and and that's just very difficult especially someone new into their faith journey but I think even someone like you or Laura or other guests that we've had on this podcast to hear you say that just
00:11:11
Speaker
I don't know. Again, it takes a little bit of that weight off of my shoulders. And I wanted to say that just having that idea of when you're reading and you circle words or you stop, something you said, and I don't think I wrote it down right. And I need you to finish the actual statement. But the point is, the point to reading the Bible isn't about the volume. It's about dot, dot, dot. And that's where I stopped. Do you know what I'm talking about?
00:11:41
Speaker
Yes. I mean, I think I said it was some version of transformation. The point is to be changed. Yes. Again, you and Laura talked about how people will try to cram it all in because that's what they're supposed to do. And there's a time that I thought that too, like if I'm not reading my Bible every single day, then I'm not a good Christian. And I've stopped putting that pressure on myself.
00:12:06
Speaker
And that goes back to something that I'm glad you marked on and that is about how you read the Bible. And so I remember when I was talking to some women about choosing the Bible, like, which Bible do I get? How do I know?
The Value of Diverse Interpretations
00:12:22
Speaker
And they said, I want you to go to the store and I want you to just look through all the Bibles and I want you to start picking out Bibles that speak to you. And then there's going to be one.
00:12:32
Speaker
that you open and it's just going to be the one for you.
00:12:38
Speaker
that landed on a women's devotional Bible for me, which was confusing for me because I, and the same thing happened to my husband because he thought that this men's devotional Bible he bought wasn't really the Bible because there's other stuff in it. And I said, no, no, it is the Bible, but there's this added layer to help us learn and grow. And then when I got the Bible, I asked these women, I said, well, how do I start? I'm type A personality. Do I start?
00:13:07
Speaker
front to back, do I just pick? And in my particular Bible, they have a reading plan and they said, do that. Start with that. There might be some confusing situations where you're reading something that's completely out of order from something you read the day before, but that's where you should start. And that's what I'm doing.
00:13:31
Speaker
appreciate that you said, really, just here's how you would suggest it for someone to read the Bible, but there's no right way. There's no wrong way either. Yeah. You know, the first time I read the Bible through myself, I wrote out all the books of the Bible and I cut them into little pieces of paper and I put them in a bowl and I would try and draw one out. And it was a really exciting way for me to read because I felt like I'm letting God lead when I'm writing these in. And I've done them a few times through the years.
00:14:02
Speaker
That is awesome. I love that. I don't have a whole lot left, but I wanted to touch on reading the Bible with others.
00:14:13
Speaker
I think that is so, so important and it's become kind of a common joke in this podcast. I've brought it up several times, but again, those same group of women that I will go to and talk to, I kept getting hung up on the Samaritan woman and I kept getting hung up that Jesus said, give me a drink. Like there was no kindness there. There was no like, please give me a drink and have brought it up to multiple people
00:14:43
Speaker
And one of the things that I'm learning is, okay, we don't know exactly the context of how that conversation went. We don't know exactly what was going on. We do know that it was unlikely that any man or am I getting that right, that any man wouldn't talk to a Samaritan woman.
00:15:09
Speaker
But being able to, that's key. Like if you see that, not just run with it and be like, oh, he has no manners. And so now I don't like him. You have to talk these things through. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm such a believer in this in part. I've been reading the Bible for a really long time, but I a few years ago developed a new friendship with a man in my life who is like a completely opposite personality from me in pretty much every way.
00:15:37
Speaker
The thing we have in common is that we are followers of Jesus and I started talking about the teachings of Jesus and the Gospels with him and having conversations with this one person has produced more accelerated growth in my life than anything I've done in over a decade because he sees things so differently and he hears them so differently that it's the first time I became aware of how much
Reflecting on New Insights through Listening
00:16:01
Speaker
Like, I thought I was hearing Jesus, but I was hearing his vocal tones exactly as I would put them. Yes. And that there were so many different ways to hear and see what he was doing that I was shocked about how much of me was in my vision of Jesus. Yes. I know, and Laura's right, when I come to her with all kinds of questions, and I'm writing things down, and sometimes this was something I wanted to say to someone listening that you can
00:16:30
Speaker
hear something over and over and over and over and over again from multiple people in your life. But sometimes it's just that one person, that one way that they say it, it just clicks and then you get it. So I just, yeah, you have to share. You have to share this with others.
00:16:51
Speaker
And by the way, what you just made said, I think is a case too for there can be real power in listening to the Bible in audio forms rather than reading. Oh, really? Because you put your own inflections on what you read. And I like one of my favorite things in the world is listening to other people read the Bible.
00:17:08
Speaker
because often sometimes I don't even hear the sermon because the person who read the scripture before the sermon inflected it so differently that I heard the story completely differently and I like my mind is so blown by the scripture I miss everything else. So I think even that simple practice of you know as a couple people like read it out loud as you hear it and hear how differently the same words can sound.
00:17:31
Speaker
Yes, I forget the app, but I'll find it and put it in the show notes. There's an app where it's all audio of people reading scripture and you can choose male voice, female voice, different accents. So you can literally listen to the same passage read by
00:17:50
Speaker
10 different people. And that, like you mentioned, Megan, that could be a really cool addition to just studying scriptures, to read it and then listen to a few people read
Personal Interpretation and Freedom
00:18:02
Speaker
it. Yeah. I like that idea. That is a really cool idea. And I know I said this earlier, but the idea of looking at this through the lens of Jesus is going to be on my mind now as I
00:18:19
Speaker
read the Bible. I am also going to make sure if there are certain words that stand out to me, whether I question them or not. And I say that meaning like sometimes people think that they can't question the Bible, that you can, that you can circle them, you can write on them, write on the Bible, or write somewhere else.
00:18:40
Speaker
Those are the two things that I am actively going to start doing as I read the Bible. But I wanted to wrap up by saying something that I feel is my, I don't even know if these are the right words. Like this is what's driving me. And I really felt it through you. And that is the first and second commandments. I am,
00:19:09
Speaker
really in this place of loving one another and being there for one another. And that's sort of my focus right now. And when you said it, it just kind of hurt my ears a little and helped me feel a little bit, I don't know, safe, maybe valid. I'm not really sure, but it hit me.
Centrality of Love and Commandments
00:19:34
Speaker
Well, and I think it's worth saying when I brought that up before, I kind of highlighted that in the context of how Jesus read the Old Testament. But if you look at the New Testament letters too, all that the New Testament letters are is essentially like Paul and other leaders in the early church applying those two basic commands to a variety of new situations, right? So after Jesus is not around anymore, all these situations in life keep coming up, like in the church in Corinth.
00:20:03
Speaker
They have a problem with they're having, they have a meal during church, but the rich people have a ton to eat and the working class people are coming after work with nothing to eat. And Jesus never talked about that situation. So the question they ask is like, what did these two central commands have to say about how we deal with this situation? That's 1 Corinthians 11. So essentially that's what the New Testament is. It's just a playing out of case studies over and over of how those two commands go.
00:20:30
Speaker
I love that and I feel like that's kind of a, I don't know if that would be like a mantra for me or I don't know a practice of life because that's really been what I've been focused on. So you've hit me with your knowledge and your words, like it's making sense and I'm understanding and I am so thankful for your time and for you just spending this time with Laura and myself and providing your knowledge.
00:21:00
Speaker
Well thanks for inviting me into conversation.