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2: Fatima 1917 & The STELLAR Project
307 Plays1 year ago
I am joined by two Portuguese researchers of outstanding calibre, Dr Joaquim Fernandes and Francisco Mourão Corrêa. Our discussion focuses on:
Fatima 1917: In 1917 a complex series of anomalous events unfolded near the small parish of Fatima, central Portugal. Culminating in the Miracle of the Sun, the Fatima sightings became enmeshed in a complex web of Catholic history, and have only relatively recently been submitted to scientific scrutiny. In this episode you will hear about
- First hand witness accounts of the sightings
- How the Catholic Church determined the narrative
- The physical and cognitive effects of the Fatima close encounters
- The wider relationship between Marian apparitions and UAP encounters
The STELLAR Project: a project which is dedicated to the scientific analysis of anomalous phenomena, bringing together researchers from different countries, within different disciplines. Topics discussed:
- The origins and genesis of the STELLAR Project
- The importance and difficulties of funding research into UAPs
- What constitutes data in the case of UAPs
- The role of consciousness and multidisciplinary research
More about Dr Fernandes' work
Latest book on Marian apparitions: https://www.presenca.pt/collections/manuscrito/products/as-outras-fatimas
Books on Fatima:
Fatima Revisited: https://www.anomalistbooks.com/book.cfm?id=27
Celestial Secrets: https://www.anomalistbooks.com/book.cfm?id=17
Heavenly Lights: https://www.anomalistbooks.com/book.cfm?id=30
CTEC, Center of Transdisciplinary Studies of Consciousness: http://ctec.ufp.pt/
More about Francisco Mourão Corrêa, STELLAR and ICER
Profile: https://stellar.com.pt/equipa/coordenacao/francisco-mourao-correa/
The STELLAR Project: https://stellar.com.pt/
ICER, International Coalition for Extraterrestrial Research: https://icer.network/
Get in touch
Twitter: @EuropeanUFOs
Facebook: European UFOs
Email: [email protected]
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Transcript
Introduction to European UFOs
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello and welcome to episode number two of European UFOs. I'm your host Sebastian and if you like this episode then please make sure to subscribe and leave a review. It really helps. I couldn't be happier to kick off this first round of interviews not just with one but with two very exciting topics.
00:00:34
Speaker
Firstly, Fatima, or what could be described as the first mass UFO sighting of the 20th century. And secondly, the Stellar Project, a project which is dedicated to the scientific and interdisciplinary analysis of anomalous phenomena.
Meet the Researchers: Fernandez and Mora Correa
00:00:50
Speaker
Here with me to discuss these topics are two Portuguese researchers of outstanding caliber. Firstly, Joachim Fernandez, who is a retired professor at the University of Fernando Pessoa Porto,
00:01:03
Speaker
and co-founder of the Center of Transdisciplinary Studies of Consciousness, CTEC, as well as the co-editor of the journal Consciences. He holds a master's degree in history and modern history, focusing on religiosity and spirituality in Portugal in the 17th century.
00:01:23
Speaker
He has a PhD in history of science with a thesis on extraterrestrial imagery in Portuguese culture from modernity until the mid 19th century, presented to the Faculty of Arts, University of Porto. Coincidentally, this was the first dissertation of this kind delivered to a European academic institute.
00:01:44
Speaker
His most recent research projects include the identification and characterisation of sources and currents of unorthodox thought in Portugal between the last decades of the 19th century and the first decades of the 20th century under the first Portuguese Republic.
00:02:01
Speaker
He has been the international coordinator of the project Marian, based at the Sea-Tec Center, which studies the cultural and scientific aspects of religious apparitional phenomena, such as those at Fatima in 1917. Since 1997, he has promoted various international conferences, forming part of the conference series, Frontiers of Science, at the University of Fernando Pessoa.
00:02:26
Speaker
He has also co-organized the conference, Science Unconsciousness, which was proposed by the Bile Foundation and incorporated into the program of the Porto 2001 European Capital of Culture.
00:02:40
Speaker
Our second guest is Francisco Mora Correa, and he will give us a glimpse into the stellar project. He has a university background in management and marketing and developed a keen interest in the possibility of intelligent life on other planets from a young age. With dedication and persuasion, he studied the history of both Portuguese and international UFO cases
00:03:04
Speaker
And over time, he was able to meet with most of the pioneer researchers in Portugal, developing a respectful relationship with them, which soon became genuine and lasting friendships. Feeling a sense of stagnation in the field of ufology and motivated by the activism of people like Stephen Greer, Stephen Bassett, or Paola Harris, Francisco founded the Portuguese Exopolitics Initiative in 2001, which was later registered as a non-for-profit organization.
00:03:34
Speaker
Over the years, in coordination and with the support of CTEC, Francisco has co-organized several conferences at the University of Fernando Pessoa with known international speakers. He has also given lectures at UFO conferences in Brazil, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Germany, San Marino, Spain and the UK.
00:03:54
Speaker
Francisco has been involved in several TV documentaries that have been filmed in Portugal, including UFO Europe and Planet UFO, both of which were for the National Geographic Channel. He also appeared in Extraterrestris Season 1, 2 and 3 for the History Channel.
00:04:12
Speaker
He has participated in numerous news segments of Portuguese TV, as well as being a guest on many radio talk shows.
Fatima Event: Witness Descriptions and Interpretations
00:04:21
Speaker
He has also an occasional contributor to UFO Truth magazine, which is based in the UK. Francisco is a co-founder and Europe's director of ISA, an international organization registered in Portugal with members from 30 countries from six continents.
00:04:40
Speaker
Well, it's a real pleasure to have both of you on the podcast. I've been really looking forward to this for a very long time, given that, you know, as usual with the podcast, we have lots of topics to talk about, especially today.
00:04:55
Speaker
but only a finite amount of time. I would like to kick off this podcast with talking about the very intriguing case of Fatima 1917. Here, because it is a very complex case involving multiple UP sightings, a mass sighting actually,
00:05:13
Speaker
close encounters, I would kind of ask you Joachim to set the scene and to really give our listeners a very broad overview before we focus in on the very nitty-gritty details of it. What actually happened and what was Fatima the site like in 1917? Okay, it's okay. Every sketch of the events to say, to remember to the people that do not know the issue,
00:05:43
Speaker
that on May 13, 1917, in a desert place in deep Portugal, Covid-Eria, in the province of Srimadura, three children, Lucio Ducente and the brothers Francisco Mart and Giacinta Mart, aged nine and seven, cousins of the first. Later, after mass on Sunday, they took their flock of sheep to a plot of length, two kilometers from the home of Lucio's parents,
00:06:11
Speaker
was then ten years old. They latched and prayed the Ruhuzari before they shot wood games. Suddenly, an explosion of light floated the barren landscape. Lucia feared that was a sign of thunder, and they prepared to return home. But any flash of lighting made them notice
00:06:37
Speaker
woman on a small home hawk tree surrounded by an intense glow. This is the beginning of the events, of course. For the next six months, the frightened little shepherds were summoned by the bleeding entity to that very spot. At the end of that period, the mysterious visitor would say who she was and what she wanted.
00:07:05
Speaker
That kind of very beautiful doll, as Lucia also described it, was not identified, but little Jacinta and Sipek that was Mary of Nazare, mother of Jesus Christ, perhaps influenced by his uncle, for whom the alleged lady could only be our lady, who Abb extended to heaven almost 2,000 years ago.
00:07:31
Speaker
and the voice of the people fold her and spread the rumor. After July 13th operation, the press and the region identify yet the woman in white as Our Lady for the first time, spreading the suggestion of a miracle of Fatima. On December 27, 1917,
00:07:54
Speaker
Canon Manophomigam, the first priest chronicle of Fatmaevans, entered the scene. The priest, who would later seen his literary works with Pestanime of Bisconda de Montalo, wanted to know from Lucia if she had questioned the luminous visitor about her identity. Lucia replied, I asked, but she declared that she would only say on October 13th,
00:08:24
Speaker
After all, who could the pretty little woman dressed in white be? Mary of Nazare, herself, in a physical body, as she was 2,000 years ago. An inner vision of Virgin Mary, as suggested by Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI Joseph Ratzinger,
00:08:44
Speaker
a sophisticated manifestation of the unknown intelligence or reality, or just a recurrent childhood fantasy.
00:08:55
Speaker
The certainty assumed by believers regarding the identification of the little woman in white as a living manifestation of Maria d'Anzre, remaining indisputable and practically impossible to discuss until 1978, when a Portuguese secular historian, Dr. Fined Armada, managed to assess the archives of the sanctuary of Fatima.
00:09:21
Speaker
In total, seven groups of new documents were then reassiminated for the first time by eyes other than those of Catholic religious and theologians. So this is the first picture that I put here to begin the discussion.
00:09:40
Speaker
Thanks a lot for this overview. So I think that the complexity already shows itself because we have a close encounter associated on the one hand with children and on the other hand with this kind of message to return. So there's already sort of an instruction going on there which is very interesting.
00:10:03
Speaker
So just to summarize, so we have these three children, they witness this entity, the entity gives them instructions, and importantly, the entity has not been, if I summarize this correctly, identified as the Virgin Mary, per se, by the children. Is that correct? So the children themselves never said it's the Virgin Mary. That was our Lady of Fatima, Mother of Jesus, of course.
00:10:31
Speaker
very intriguing perhaps picking up on that point so what was the original description given by the children.
00:10:39
Speaker
It's a very important point because the truth is that only in 1992, with the supervision of Catholic University, those responsible for the sanctuary of Fatima, would make the first volume of the documentary collection of the Parisians testimony available to the public.
00:11:02
Speaker
Thus, the first volume of the so-called critical documentation of Fatima appeared before the eyes of the Republic, much more integral than critical. But even so, a first basis of historical heuristics available for secular, multidisciplinary research. It's the first point of the part of our research.
00:11:23
Speaker
Today, it is for any publicist to dissect and compare the different accounts of the three small protagonists of Fatima, or before Covid idea, as we'd call. The two single legible and obvious contradictions and omissions
00:11:44
Speaker
construction around the Parisians that Sister Lucius let memories crown in a notorious way. It was really difficult in 1978 to break through the barriers of anatavistic Catholicism, the Gilles' garden of the main protagonist of the phenomena in 1917, reclusive in the monastic shadows, then prevent from beginning
00:12:10
Speaker
interviewed by researchers, secular researchers, of course, when the author of these lines challenged Finnadormada to invest in a theme that project itself into the universe of the sacred feminine and with symbolic dimensions and not only of women in Portuguese history. It was on the basis of these original interviews
00:12:35
Speaker
potentially preserved from the natural clerical contamination of the inquires of that time, the first inquires, of course, that we were able to reconstruct the portrait, always subjective. It should be noted of this very beautiful lady in a white that gave light, remark, a very beautiful lady in a white that gave light.
00:13:02
Speaker
Based on the initial scripts of Lucia and her cousins, which appears in the first integration made by Perish priest of Fatima in May 19... May 29, sorry, 1917, we sketch the fallen robot portrait. It was a very beautiful female figure with black eyes enveloped in a blinding light.
00:13:29
Speaker
He was about 1.1 meters tall.
00:13:33
Speaker
and appeared to be between 12 and 15 years old. She was wearing a skirt, white and gold, with lead strings running from top to bottom and across. A cape-like mantle that descended to the edge of the dress that did not exceed the knees. Remark this point, it's very important to the ethnographic statue of Mary we can see in Santuari today.
00:14:03
Speaker
He had something on his head that covered his ears and ears. A string with luminous bow hung from her neck at waist height. He did have facial movements or move his lips when he spoke.
00:14:21
Speaker
who is spoken, or his lower limbs when he walks away from his back facing upwards.
Exploring Phenomena: Sound and Seers
00:14:28
Speaker
Certainly a vision of Nazareth little or not at all, reconciled now by this typical description, that in course of following years did not cease to worry the clerical directs close to Seir, Roussi of course.
00:14:45
Speaker
The orthodoxy of these props and canonical clothing would require enviable corrections. Above all, the dress length was gradual in short and ratified by the clerical inspirits of the 1917 apparition orthodoxy. Of course, we can see that in the figure reproduced in Sant'Wari because the dress is down until the fits, of course.
00:15:13
Speaker
So the reconstruction figure based on the first description transmitted by the seers to the priests of Fatima Manuel Max. I think that's very helpful also because as you said this description comes from the same year so it hasn't been diluted by all you know kind of sort of Catholic interpretations and also
00:15:36
Speaker
the attempt by the Catholic Church to seize the narrative. So that's very intriguing. So I have actually two questions about the description. The one is, apart from, as you already mentioned, that the being communicated not in a verbal or oral way.
00:15:55
Speaker
So that already suggests that something is kind of paranormal or anomalous about this apparition. Is there anything else about this apparition that points really to the fact that, hey, this is something of high strangeness?
00:16:11
Speaker
because critics might say, oh, three small children, they probably fantasized playing. Is there anything about the apparition itself that in the description points to a case of high strangeness? We can point out something very strange indeed for the knowledge of the
00:16:34
Speaker
the history, the Portugal, the deep Portugal, the peasant Portugal, humble and angry people of the locals. So we can say that is the first point of strangeness. The lady spoke like a buzzing bee. It's a detail that was not remarked only by the little seers, but only the people was around the little seers.
00:17:03
Speaker
is something that was here by the other people and other little cousins. So, records of the immigration conjectures about the ultimate nature of so-called Marian apparition, the fact is that we find in these extraordinary situations of the wonderful Christian
00:17:24
Speaker
All the psychological, physiological symptoms co-relative to the so-called modified states of consciousness, widely experienced by both mystics and lay subjects, of course. In the case of Sears and Fatima, especially in Lucia, this was no exception, and we have ample information about them.
00:17:45
Speaker
In Lucio de Sancho, all the typical side effects of so-called contactee syndrome are concentrated and exposed. Therefore, it became pertinent to compare this experience of religious and paral religious nature with similar experiences of contemporary and profane contactees and equal of classic Christian mystics of other faiths or all other faiths.
00:18:13
Speaker
As is known, Lucia claimed to have received during her meeting with Leighton and White a sequence of messages that she understood in Portuguese. What communication process could have been occurring in this dialogue between two different realities and ontological realities? Is there any way to confirm this communication's Fatima?
00:18:38
Speaker
Witness presents on various days 13 of the series of six operations, as you know, reported very specific auditory sensations that can now be interpreted in theoretical terms. More than that, they are
00:18:54
Speaker
been replicated in laboratory experiments. C. Whenever and only when Lucia said that lady was speaking to her without moving her lips, it should be emphasized that vortices present around her mouth recorded the external auditory sensation of a buzzing noise like a bee or a fly in size of a pitcher.
00:19:23
Speaker
This phenomenon objective was reaffirmed by different eyewitness present around the small oak where the lady would be sighted. Manuel Pedro Marto, father of Jacinta and Francisco, in July 1917 at the site of Parisians, stated,
00:19:43
Speaker
Then I began to wear a rumble, a buzz, like a fly, in an empty pitcher. It's thus far away or is close by. I ask myself. It was Phil Darmada that was Christian and this witness.
00:20:00
Speaker
This is it said. It was like what you wear, need and behave, more harmonious, although you could not understand the words. Of course, it was indeterminable. Maria Carreira, a friend of Lucia, was born in the region and accompanied the deparitions, described itself. We followed the children and knelt in the middle of the bush.
00:20:23
Speaker
Lucia raised her hands and said, you sent me here, what do you want from me? And then a hum like a bee began to be heard. It took care that it was the late speaking, for it was heard very well. Intervealed by Finner Marva in 1978, Maria Duzaines, Lucia's sister, also referred to strange noise that manifests itself during Lucia's conversations with Blady.
00:20:52
Speaker
Maria Dusencho said, I heard it too, but I don't know what it was. As a single bee or a swarm? No, only one, only one bee, she said. Do you remember what month that was? I don't know anymore. I didn't go there every month, but I look little, little bee that went around like them when Lucia listened the lady, but I don't know what it was.
00:21:22
Speaker
So, be buzzing. Mosquito sounds, insects and very sounding fly on a stage of operations.
00:21:31
Speaker
picturesque vocabulary of local folklore, or something else. What does the valuable scientific data say? North American European entomologists have long studied various types of antibodies and identified a range of sound frequencies produced by those insects between 200 and 300 Hz, really speaking.
00:21:55
Speaker
and intriguingly consonants, since this frequency is very close to those recorded in lab tests in which individuals, subject to modulated emissions of microwaves, heard noises of the type buzzing inside their heads. So it's very impressive. In other words, the testimony of Fatima and scientific records in the lab could exceed and could not be invented.
00:22:24
Speaker
because especially by those humble country people of the poor Portugal in 1917. It was not being invented. It should be noted that this Bangor beast always and only occur when laid
00:22:39
Speaker
seemed to speak to Lushvosya, but without moving her lips as the seer and the lions. In any case, the buzzing effect covering an external, audible area by those present in a small area around the old oak. So the lady spoke neither Hebrew nor Portuguese.
00:23:03
Speaker
She made himself understood through a medium anode to us, and which produced an audible hum from the outside, by the essence closest to the little seers.
00:23:17
Speaker
The strength of communication from the luminous lady to Lucia appears to be consistent with the hypothesis of reception of signals and information directly in the human brain, as we can explain later by the contemporary research, of course. The main important signal that this strange noise that could not be invented
00:23:44
Speaker
not a tribute to bees in the natural field around Fatima, of course, in nature.
00:23:50
Speaker
Yeah, thanks a lot for this very detailed description. I think it really points to the high strangeness factor that we have with this case. So here we have three children witnessing something that is obviously highly anomalous associated with cognitive effects that can't be replicated or couldn't be replicated at that time, which obviously is an objective criterion for the reality of this phenomenon.
00:24:18
Speaker
following up on the buzzing sound and especially Lucia. So from what I gathered, there were multiple meetings. A, do we know what they talked about? And B, why Lucia? Has anyone else of the other two children, which I believe were her cousins heard anything? So whether a clear message with these other two children or did they only hear a buzzing?
00:24:45
Speaker
Someone else, it's a very important witness that Finn Larmada discovered in 1978 that she was called the fourth seer. It's a connection with a kind of angel, a little being known and the nominate as Angel. With Olme, she had a
00:25:08
Speaker
It's a very important witness and a surprising witness, of course, because Fineda Armada did not expect to find any fourth witness very close to the three cousins.
00:25:25
Speaker
And I believe that witness was still alive, right? You interviewed. Yes, he is named Carolina Carreina. He is the fourth seer. It's an unknown fourth seer. Absolutely unknown by the priests that investigate and research the initial Fatima events.
00:25:45
Speaker
someone else that was put apart the research, the Catholic, the religion research in its inquires.
Constructing the Fatima Message
00:25:55
Speaker
It was in the document from an official Intruratorius of 1923 that we came to know that Carolina Carrera with Ben
00:26:06
Speaker
12 years old, in the company of a country-human named Conseçao, aged 7, had seen on the morning of July 28, 1917, next to the home hulk of contact, a kind of angel of small stature,
00:26:23
Speaker
with a white dress, very beautiful and with golden hair down to her neck. This angel normally walks from one side to the other around the dome of oak 3 and resembles a child between 7 and 10 years old.
00:26:40
Speaker
Interviewed by Fendermada, Karolina Kerere recalled her entire experience, a very important experience. Suddenly, he began to feel a kind of a pill or order inside his head.
00:26:55
Speaker
Go there and say three L-marries. Go there and say three L-marries. In trying it, she asked her companion if she heard the same thing, but consistent with companion said she didn't hear anything.
00:27:11
Speaker
What most intrigued Carolina was the insistent order or that voice that seemed to be sounding inside her. This mental suggestion induced in the inside of Ed is not original, as you see. It is repeated in the cattle of contacts with the entities of unknown origin, even in the profound form.
00:27:36
Speaker
Likewise, it is legitimate, I suspect that between the prayer and the vision itself, this mental suggestion in those inside of head is not original Fatima. Likewise, we learn this kind of contact and the mission, mental mission with the entities of unknown region, even as I say in the profound forum.
00:28:03
Speaker
Likewise, it is legitimate to suspect that between the prayer and the vision itself, there is a complementarity and interdependence. The imaginal world, a third territory between two worlds, seems to emerge here in a bridge between the normal reality of the visible world and another dimension in a silent common sense.
00:28:29
Speaker
A question, a very important question, arises here. Would Lucia be a child with sensitive, mediumistic abilities? Spiritist opinion says yes and interprets what happened in Fatima as a Christic manifestation and not a physical presence of the vision of Nazare. The little seers would be
00:28:51
Speaker
executors of a prophetic message related to time with emphasis on the Great War that was, of course, during. So this is a prophetic extension, of course, written by the Spiritualists' opinion in Portugal that made a very important test, a reception, an interested
00:29:17
Speaker
message about the Fatima message itself, and it is important. This message was previously told in the media, in the journals in Portugal. Make some confusion, of course, because what interests would be the spiritist movement to call to it the interpretation of Fatima events.
00:29:42
Speaker
it was make no sense because they could not get some profit of manifestation itself because as you know this profit was all itself made by the Catholic Church of course.
00:29:57
Speaker
Thanks a lot. So perhaps focusing on the content of this interaction that both Lucia and then the fourth witness had, but the fourth witness with a different entity. And this interaction that Lucia had with that pretty lady happened, I think, five or six times.
00:30:16
Speaker
And how can we imagine it? Was it like a dialogue or was it an indoctrination? Was this being telling her things but she couldn't ask questions? How can we imagine this sort of conversation? I think all the message that was published, known by people in our days, including after the Pope, the tentative assassination of the Pope,
00:30:44
Speaker
It was very, very extensive study by Fiend Arman and myself in the new book that we published in 2002 concerning the construction of the secret, the indoctrination of the seer during his stay in convent, in monastery, in Galicia, in north of Spain.
00:31:06
Speaker
It's the key interpretation, the key facts that can explain all the constructions of Fatima message in the way of Catholicism related to the communism, the fraction, of course, the war between origin and
00:31:26
Speaker
Catholic session, and communism is very present in the message that was inducted by the priests that was around it, the conferses of the new Lucia in the monastery here in Galicia.
00:31:42
Speaker
So we can say that the message, the secret was very continuous indoctrination of Lucia during her stay here in north of Spain. The book is explaining all the details. We can say even, we can say
00:32:03
Speaker
Some details, including dates of message, the reception of message, contact of vision, were corrected in the documents by the two priests that was the consulars, the confessors of Lucia. It was an intervention, a direct intervention of the two priests in the reception of the alleged communication received by Lucia.
00:32:28
Speaker
So this very important historical fact that of course the believers, that's matter, that's matter for the faith that are falling, but in historical meaning is a key interpretation in the key documents to understand
00:32:50
Speaker
the way Lucia in his following years here in north of Spain, namely Vigo and Pontevedra, two monasteries who she stayed within, had followed her way to emphasize the own interests of the Catholic Church that time we are talking in the years of
00:33:18
Speaker
1920s, the 20s, when communism, the party communism was arriving 19th Soviet Union and was pretending to grow around Europe and not only Europe but around all the world. So it puts a great war
00:33:42
Speaker
ideological war between Fatima and Fatima was preventing the advances of the communism regimes and the communism doctrines in principle.
00:33:59
Speaker
I find this very fascinating because in a sense here we don't necessarily have a form of, you know, kind of high strangeness indoctrination, but rather a human indoctrination. It's the Catholic Church. Very heavy and continuous indoctrination by the two priests that was the daily presence around Lucia, around more than 10 years
00:34:27
Speaker
doing stays here in Spain. So I really commend you on your work trying to strip away historical theological embellishments and trying to get down at the core of what actually happened and what this interaction may have been like. And coming to this core, the objective core, what actually happened
00:34:50
Speaker
I think what we probably can be certain of is that this being communicated to Lucia, that on the sixth meeting something extraordinary would happen. And perhaps we could now talk about this because it's an event that obviously is perhaps the biggest UAP case in Europe.
00:35:11
Speaker
Yeah, it's the last and most important event of the series of Fatima operation is when a dull silver disk and its physical effects are manifested in October 13, 1917. It's an important date, it's an important event because we can consider in late-tier terms, not religious terms,
00:35:41
Speaker
This is the first great closing counter with physical and objective effects on the ground, on the people around the oak, and of course, on the Philate seers. It's a sign, the nonce, sign for everyone to believe that was been promised to Lucia by our lady in August.
00:36:09
Speaker
No one knew its nature or form or kind or manifestation, but it ended up taking shape on October 13, around noon. There were many and diverse impressing descriptions by witnesses among the approximately 5,000 present who claimed to have observed unusual movements of the sun over Covid-19, the name of the sport.
00:36:36
Speaker
Likewise, at the same time as the so-called solar phenomenon, sensation of heat, drying closes and soil flooded by rain, and physiological effects, so-called instantaneous curious, were recorded. In fact, the behaviour of the crowd in face of solar phenomenon of October produced different attitudes of emotion and hysteria.
00:37:04
Speaker
What is unknown, what is ignored will always be a source of astonishment and that takes us back to the primary survival reaction. We are in full control of the sacred, of the deepest mystery that subjugates the weak human condition.
00:37:22
Speaker
see this set of reactions from first end witness recollection at the time. So I can emphasize that this is first witness testimony, not third, fourth kind order of the replicated by other authors, not only first end witness that we consider here in the solar manifestation of October.
00:37:52
Speaker
Ana Maria da Camara say, I see a very clear disc, blue silver, without race, which soon returning to its natural color, begins to rotate vertiges nosely. Other Angelica Pitta de Murayes said, it immediately becomes like a matter silver disc returns on itself.
00:38:16
Speaker
Another guy said, the glow of sun, similar to a made silver disk, revolves around an imaginary axis.
00:38:27
Speaker
A lawyer called a very important witness, Josemaria Medigahed, a very important lawyer of Coimbatron University, said, that pure disk had the vertigo of movement. It's a dressing sensation. It was not the twinkle of a star in full life. It spun on itself at brick neck speed.
00:38:50
Speaker
An engineer, Marie Houdini, said, it was a majestic magnetic disk that attracts us and revolves in the immense sky. Note this important detail, the formation of an engineer, a magnetic disk that was appropriate to an engineer.
00:39:10
Speaker
The correspondent of newspaper local, Ray Luce, said, suddenly a luminous disk takes the size of a host as if it detaches itself from the sun or rather appears in front of it, visible descending to the crowd.
00:39:29
Speaker
In a figure we can see the area of the physical effects recorded by 28 first and testimonies of the so-called miracle sun in October 3rd. The triple effects involve sensations of sudden heat, as you see, immediate drying of clothes and instant cures when the sun descends,
00:39:55
Speaker
solar objects over the crowd. These effects can be tested as you see, and we can repeat, not spurious. We can be tested in the laboratory and compared with the action of a microwave emission. This is the proposal that I and my colleague, Dr. O. Brangel, proposed in the illustration you can show.
00:40:22
Speaker
Reports from the time are visual compared to atmospheric optical phenomena produced by the sun and the certain conditions. The so-called solar ellosoperhelion, a phenomenon resulting from the presence of small ice crystals suspended in the atmosphere and reflecting sunlight. In these cases, the crystals are located in the high clouds
00:40:47
Speaker
which moving in front of the astral king, the sun, will give the illusion that it will be the sun moving and not the other way around. Another interpretation of the movements of the alleged sun, complex from a neurologic point of view, suggests possible effects on the retina
00:41:09
Speaker
resulting from longer exposure of the ice and sunlight, probably, and admissible in some of situations described years. Professor Messon, I note this kind of a spat, Professor August Messon from the Loewein Overnou City in Belzec is subscribing this kind of hypothesis to explain the effects that the people experienced.
00:41:37
Speaker
There are, of course, certifying the plausible hypothesis on the current state of scientific knowledge. In addition to perceptual emotion contagion that stems from the cycles of crowds and hallucinatory hypothesis, in the case of Fatima, the questions of the anticipation prediction of so-called miracle announced in July 1917,
00:42:01
Speaker
which rise problems not values is to solve remains unless with doubt of chance of coincidence. However, in the case of October 13, a rational explanation that dispensed with an intentional election
00:42:18
Speaker
of unknown nature as a direct agent of the triple set of physical effects notorious and simultaneous exposed above, recorded by identified witness, becomes quite complex from among the crowd present at Covid area.
00:42:39
Speaker
So this is the global describes of the so-called Zen phenomena that terrified the people was knee at local and subscribe the great dimension of the miracle
00:42:55
Speaker
idea transmitted of course by Lucia previous to this event. Well thanks a lot for this very comprehensive overview. So just to summarise and to get this straight into my head, so we have this event that took place, we have
00:43:12
Speaker
multiple witnesses suffered physical consequences. And concerning the movement of the sun, perhaps you could explain that a bit again because of the so-called sun, because I think it is quite an important point for our listeners as well, because I think what you have going on is a sort of mimicry, right? So you have something that's discoed, so has the form of a disc,
00:43:36
Speaker
is actually superimposed onto the sun, right? So that people initially can't see it and then only through the movement can you actually see it and then it comes down. Yes, it's important to emphasize that people, some people that quote it emphasize the object detached from the sign itself. It was not the sign now, of course, because it was the sign.
00:44:02
Speaker
It could prevent to be here now, nowadays, to talk because it was a global disaster, of course. Another witness that not...
00:44:13
Speaker
was quoted from the October phenomenon, but the previous month, September, in the apparition of September 13, we quoted here in our research a very important description because they are not reproduced by
00:44:34
Speaker
Any airplane enthusiasts were in the time, of course, but by priests, two priests and members of Catholic hierarchy that were present among the crown. I subscribe this because they are an important witness producing September 13.
00:44:53
Speaker
the September 13th operation. It was a very important description produced by Monsignor Juanko Oresme, vicar general of the dioceses of Lérieux, one of the members of the Commission of Canonical Inquirer, appointed by the bishop to evaluate
00:45:13
Speaker
the ongoing apparitions. It was accompanied there by another priest, and his testimony implied that it considered it natural and admissible for the Virgin Mary to use a means of transport like any any mortal. It's very interesting and curious. He wrote, in blue sky there was not a cloud.
00:45:37
Speaker
To my great admiration, I saw clearly and distinctly a luminous glow moving from east to west, gliding slowly and majestically through space. My friend had good fortune to enjoy the same enchanting apparition.
00:45:54
Speaker
What do you think of that globe? I asked my friend. That was our lady. He answered without hesitation. It was also my conviction. The little shepherds contemplated the mother of God herself. We had been able to contemplate the car.
00:46:14
Speaker
that had transported Earth from the sky to the inhospitable world of the paradise, the local of the operation. It's an amazing description of two priests at that time. Another statement still related to the September episode
00:46:32
Speaker
such of that Seminary in Joel, the Dierz Magno, provides new elements of strangeness about what happened in the Amphitheater of Covid-Eria at the moment when Lucio suggests the arrival of the Lady of the Home Tree. He alleged that many bystanders saw an oval a little more voluminous than an egg,
00:46:58
Speaker
White, bright and bright, with the wise part facing downwinders, describe a long straight line and sky. The duration of the observation varies slightly depending on the perspective and attention of each one's presence. And there were those who claimed that strange device flying over the crowd was higher than it was white.
00:47:25
Speaker
Dr. Giuseppe Jains understood that when he heard voice around him, exclaiming, you can't see it anymore, you can't see it anymore. I understood that lady passed on home oak tree was already talking to Lucia.
00:47:43
Speaker
It's a touch, a touch, man, when Lucio Silla, the hand of a celestial encounter, shooting. There it goes, there it goes. The aforementioned doctor raised his gaze in the ration dedicated. I distinctly saw a luminous object moving away to wrist.
00:48:01
Speaker
An object tailor than it was wide, luminous in fact, moving strongly needed wide with a certain speed until losing sight of it on the horizontal, this clinically. Confirming the details of the direction and speed taken by the unusual aerial object as well as configuration of the same in apparent divergence from of description.
00:48:30
Speaker
Most slides, likely, it's the same object that undergoes a rotation of 19 degrees in longitudinal axis, followed by another rotation in the transversal axis, also of 19 degrees. Thus, it's planning the two perspectives, of course, in the different types. So this complementary witness, a very curious and not spurious description, made
00:48:57
Speaker
substantial invite to priests that incarnate, of course, that influence it, of course, by the religious interpretation, by the religious atmosphere, of course, that was present there.
00:49:11
Speaker
Yeah, but nevertheless, it's a very scientific... They could make a part, his formation, his conviction from the factuality of objects that was the transport and medium of our lady.
00:49:28
Speaker
No it's an amazing description. Before wrapping this part up, what were the physical consequences with the main witnesses of the solar phenomenon? Because you already said they experienced drying of clothes, they had some exposure to heat.
00:49:47
Speaker
And were there any physical ailments so did people become ill because i know that from a lot of up experiences people either have you know good or bad physical experiences do we know anything about this in this case.
00:50:04
Speaker
No, during the time that we could study the witness reports, all the testimonies, but direct testimonies from the witness in the first end. Of course, there are atmospheres of religious convictions. That was a miracle. Some reports of cures, the health problems during the solar manifestation.
00:50:31
Speaker
So, of course, it can be understood as a psychometric effect, perhaps during that manifestation, some kind of physical exposure. We can subscribe to some two or three exposures.
00:50:52
Speaker
in the skin that was curd by the exposition to the phenomenon. But of course, the global idea that remains, that was a miracle manifestation, that was a support from convictions of all that people that was gathered there by Lucia's announcements, of course.
00:51:21
Speaker
Yes. To wrap this up, I have to, in a sense, closing questions. So the one is that UFO, UAP experiences, and especially on this scale, rarely happen in isolation. So my question is, is there anything in Fatima to suggest that it is a place of high strangeness? Like, you know, a certain ranch in North America, for instance, is there something strange about it, about Fatima in general, or
00:51:50
Speaker
I think we can draw some conclusions. I made it in the last book
00:51:56
Speaker
As you know, I try to constantly contrast a kind of global theory of so-called Marian apparitions. And I follow the first sentence of the great Arthur C. Clarke when he said, any sub-sentimental advanced technology is not distinguishable from magic.
00:52:20
Speaker
I think this is the core of the problem because of course we are in a subject ground with the predominant protagonist that is a child, that is an infant or adult sent in the verge of poverty is a typical age of the range of the contactees that makes present
00:52:48
Speaker
and the age group of the visitors to Alice's wonderful world, of course, that range between 6 and 12 years old with a certain predominance of young females, of course.
00:53:05
Speaker
Second sensually, this threshold could go back at age of three, as was tested by an experience of a girl from another Portuguese operation. I see, I quoted here in this book, in Bournier, the municipality of Torres-Wethers. It was a vision of a lady taller than her, taller than the lady,
00:53:29
Speaker
and was gradually suddenly wrapped in a mist, with a flash where the entity was. She had a very pretty face, but she wasn't smiling, looking like she was in downhill and then stopped. Her lips did not move, but girl heard her as if sound came from outside.
00:53:52
Speaker
This entity which over in the head and suddenly disappeared, identified itself as our lady of peace and wanted people to sing and pray to end the war. The context, of course, is very important in this kind of manifestations and experience. A short visit that took the time and is necessary for she to express that sentence.
00:54:20
Speaker
So this group is very, very marked by these attributes. They're an overflowing imagination, extra sensory perception, the dermatization in which they often involve their imaginary partners,
00:54:36
Speaker
they are specific skills that grounds minimising.
Modern UAP Studies and Historical Context
00:54:41
Speaker
Like Alice, they kept one foot on the other side of the mirror or going right through it. At night, the young seer Jacinta would sometimes see a small woman on the edge of the attic trapdoor before going to sleep.
00:55:02
Speaker
So, Jacinta C. will have experienced the classic infantile syndrome, interrupted sleep, the fear that some unknown friends, a boy in tights, will appear in the room simply to play the agreement and ecosystem in which
00:55:21
Speaker
evolve. Solitude, the silence of the rural environment, and sunlight could add stimuli to the waking of these creative capacities. As in Fatima and most periphery apparitions, according Jean-Claude Bourg, the regular recitation of the Rosari from four children, establishing a regular respiratory rhythm,
00:55:46
Speaker
could favor the expansion of the field of consciousness, which in turn would act on psychic mechanisms innate. All metabolism is restored from circulation to the central nervous system and muscles and so on. A new window then opens on the threshold of the new singularity. So this is a new singularity created remarkably by this place of age.
00:56:16
Speaker
and kind of young ladies in his poverty. So this is the emergence of paranormal capacities of the seers. This is not news. I emphasize, I see this is very important to the whole core of the witness in Marian apparition as the contemporary contact close encounters in our days.
00:56:47
Speaker
I love the analogy of Alice in Wonderland being related to a UP case. I think that's fascinating. Never thought about it in that way. But there are, and I think Jacques Vallée came up with this idea that the closer one gets to this phenomenon, the more ridiculous it appears. I think, and perhaps we can talk about this, Francisco, later. It's also, it raises the question of what actually constitutes data with a phenomenon like this.
00:57:14
Speaker
because it seems to be very transient and very hard to tackle. So to summarize, Fatima then is part of a larger history of marine apparitions, which I suppose are still ongoing today, is that correct? So do people still see them or is there now with the kind of more secular environment people are living in, have they become less frequent? Let's say that the
00:57:39
Speaker
lay presence, the secular manifestations are, of course, more important nowadays. Not to say, of course, that the religious environment could not meditate, but I think today is this contemporary and secular dimension that are growing in our
00:58:02
Speaker
our countries around the globe, the repository of this kind of approach is very, very near, very close to one another.
00:58:16
Speaker
religious and not religious, the secular and not secular manifestations are very close. It is a difference, of course, the context. The historical context, the local context, as of course the rural Fatima in the poor Portugal in 1917,
00:58:38
Speaker
that cannot be, I think so. Today, these events, like Fatima Henry's rural expressions, that could not be manifested today in our technological, scientific, secular manifestation in cultural atmosphere.
00:58:59
Speaker
So it's both a kind of phenomenon that we reinterpret based on the history we're living in, but that also adapts and kind of a feedback process to our culture. So I think that's very interesting, this process of mimicry. And my final question for you Joachim, I mean, for someone who's worked on this for the best part of 40 years, what do you think the lasting legacy of Fatima is for you on a scientific and also personal level?
00:59:28
Speaker
I think we can see it is a part of a myth in progress. As you know, I follow very, very much the Jack Valley proposals, of course, as these agents, interpreters of the proposals, celestial staging in this modality is coming from a unique physical or energetic dimension.
00:59:55
Speaker
These alleged nensers of deceit, as Ballet called, can be translated as some kind of ultra-terrestrial forms of consciousness and in psyches, parallel or division form of our space-time, and capable of manipulating it.
01:00:17
Speaker
insinuating itself into our collective and cautiousness and identify itself with its interlocutors in terms of Horizios beliefs and associate cultists in any kind of time in a precious cult.
01:00:36
Speaker
such a Marian devotion that is a global, a very important devotion spread, as you know, by all Catholic world and all the people that believe that.
01:00:51
Speaker
So, as Valet said, it could interpret the functions of a control system, as you call it. So, I think these demonstrations, aerial, atmospheric demonstrations can be seen as a simple artifice of an ostensive staging by the promoters of the partition to make more dramatic and complex the exhibition of this phenomenon.
01:01:19
Speaker
as we, of course, identify contemporary as unidentified. They seek essential following of my ideas corroborated by Jacques Vallée, the submissive attachment of the crowds through wonder and prodigy, weapons of eternal immutable magic.
01:01:44
Speaker
Again, the return of the well-known formula of the sefit, like was described by Rudolf Otto, for example. So this kind of interpretation, of course, I'm not subscribing. Exporting my ideas and my convictions is primarily historical research on documents.
01:02:09
Speaker
Our research is that a historical document that was not extensively studied and firstly, comparing with our days and the manifestations of our days with at last discovery some astonishing similarities that can be occulted or ignored.
01:02:36
Speaker
Well, thank you so much Joachim. You've done an amazing piece of work there for the field in general and for Fatima in particular. Where can people find you? Let's say we're interested more to learn more about Fatima. I mean, there will be links in the description, but if you have a website, where can people find you?
01:02:55
Speaker
the library is online. In Portugal, they expose the book, the other Fatimas. Of course, unfortunately, it is in Portuguese. I can say that
01:03:12
Speaker
is not a great language to the public in general. Of course, someone can read Portuguese, some of our friends Brazilians and so on. And of course, someone else that can study Portuguese can achieve in this book some guidelines to a new interpretation of this kind of phenomenon, both secular, both religious.
01:03:40
Speaker
Perfect, yeah, and I'll make sure to include the link in the description. I appreciate, of course, your force to expose and show my last book, because it's essential, a great reflection, a last great reflection of this complex subject, of course. Yes, yes. I hope that
01:04:06
Speaker
anymore people can study it and present some new data from that. Yeah, and perhaps just as a final word here, I also really commend you on being so transparent with the data because I have here three books, the original ones on Fatima and they include all the data so that future generations of researchers can actually also work with them.
01:04:30
Speaker
which kind of neatly brings us actually to the Stellar project and you Francis, because you are kind of looking into the future as it were and paving the way for more scientific engagements with the UAP phenomenon.
01:04:48
Speaker
Francisco, could you perhaps, for listeners who probably might not be aware of what the Stellar Project is, give a brief overview of when you were founded, what your mission is, etc? Well, first of all, thank you for having me. It's a real pleasure to be here talking to you and to your audience. The Stellar Project is basically an evolution from
01:05:13
Speaker
other Portuguese projects, mainly also founded by a professor, Joaquin Fernandes, back in the 70s, when the UFO phenomena was being very enthusiastically lived through the Portuguese public. And when also the armed forces in Portugal were less dependent on the political narrative, the political establishment,
01:05:42
Speaker
and they were open to the discussion.
01:05:45
Speaker
And so Professor Joaquin Fernandez and his team back in the day, they were able to contact the armed forces through the person, which was the General Joselem Fucheira, who had a sighting in 1957, a 40-minute period sighting with other pilots. He was intrigued back then. He was interested in the phenomena.
01:06:13
Speaker
he opened the possibility of civilian researchers to be able to get in touch with the pilots, to be at the bases, the Air Force bases, to interview the pilots. This all happened in late 70s, beginning of the 80s, so more or less a pioneer situation across the globe, right? This thing that's throughout the years took
01:06:41
Speaker
different, not shapes, but the members of the team, some of them left, some others entered, but the idea was for a multidisciplinary approach to the phenomena. And also with the vision of the need for the academia, for the universities to be present also and to have a word in the research. And so basically, Tellur is more or less an evolution from that vision as well.
01:07:09
Speaker
also to have a broader view about the stellar and what led to the development of stellar.
01:07:19
Speaker
I need also to talk about ICER, the International Coalition for extraterrestrial research. So this, as you know, on the 16th of December of 2017, you had the New York Times had an article by Leslie Kane, Elaine Cooper and Ralph Blumenthal talking about ATIP and the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program and the role of Luis Elizondo as the head of that department. They also
01:07:49
Speaker
I mentioned Eric Dr Eric Davis as also being connected to the research and they had samples of UFO debris and also they had studied the physiological effects on witnesses of UFO encounters.
01:08:08
Speaker
This led, as you know, throughout the 2018, 2017, the Navy in the U.S. had implemented a line of reports for pilots to address their sightings, and you also started to have hearings in the Congress, the Senate, etc. So the politicians in the U.S. wanted to know exactly what was this all about, was the UAP, the UFO,
01:08:37
Speaker
Well, UAP is a term that the British started to use in the 80s and now the Americans discovered it and they are talking about it. Can we perhaps just go back to the late 1970s in Portugal because it's something that really fascinates me when you said that there was an era of
01:08:54
Speaker
excitement about the topic because that seems to be a sort of divergence from how the topic has been traditionally treated, especially in the US-UK context. So how can we make sense of this? Portugal was more open to this topic.
01:09:14
Speaker
I don't think maybe it's a cultural thing, but it was it was just something that was discovered. But, you know, that we live we went through a dictatorship, a 40 year period of dictatorship. And so in 74, there was a revolution, a civil revolution, a Pacific Revolution.
Stellar Project and UAP Research Initiatives
01:09:34
Speaker
But the regime was changed. And so during the dictatorship, of course, information was very restricted.
01:09:44
Speaker
And so people were relearning everything, not rediscovering the world, basically. And the information started to flow coming from the outside. And so, yeah, there was a rediscovery of UAP, of UFOs. So there were already, back in the 60s, some researchers that
01:10:05
Speaker
did some work, but always with the fear of being persecuted, of being arrested, because they would be talking about something out of the normal situation, so they could be persecuted by the state police. So in the late 70s, yes, there was some
01:10:26
Speaker
some euphoria about new things. And so this allowed, for instance, I think it was in 1978 that the first Iberian UFO Congress that was organized here in Porto, it was in the Faculty of Economics from the University of Porto, like a thousand people attended. And right now, if you want to do a UFO Congress nowadays, you may have 100 people
01:10:54
Speaker
with luck yes very very true that's why we need to get the word across that important topic absolutely yes sorry i interrupted you with your summary of how the stellar project came about i think we've just just reached very important year 2017 on kind of the ramifications of that out of which then basically 2017 was
01:11:17
Speaker
the removal of the stigma or the start of the removal of the stigma. You started to have more discussion and yes, the US has been seen always as the beacon of ufology and so when this happened, we understood that other geopolitical interests also became interested
01:11:40
Speaker
what is happening in the U.S. And so China and Russia also, of course, they have researched this for many years. But with this opening of the Pandora box, there was a group from China and I believe it was connected to the government. They promoted a meeting in Moscow.
01:12:01
Speaker
It was called the Five Continents Forum. It was to discuss several things from across the globe, but one part mainly focused on UAP.
01:12:13
Speaker
And so they invited several researchers across the globe. Not everyone went, but many went there. There was not a worksheet, so people didn't know exactly what they were going to. But they presented a vision of an international organization that they wanted to be headquartered in China.
01:12:34
Speaker
And so basically they wanted everyone to feed information for them. Everyone was more or less excited, et cetera. But the months went by and they went silent. They never replied to emails or calls, et cetera. And so the pandemic started. We were all confined. And we realized, well, this network is already established so we can start working with what we have.
01:13:03
Speaker
And we started having Zoom meetings. Let me say that the exo-political movement, especially the European one, which is quite different from the American one, had Skype meetings regularly like every 15 days since 2009.
01:13:21
Speaker
So we already had some how to work as a team since 2009. And so part of this group, especially the Europeans, were also connected to the rise of ISER. And so through a general vote, it was an unanimous vote to register this organization that we envisioned here in Porto Portugal.
01:13:45
Speaker
So on the 27th of May of 2021, after many works of like weekly meetings, preparing everything, and it was a very bureaucratic workload in terms of certifying all the signatures and documents, etc., through the embassies of every country, etc. It was very...
01:14:09
Speaker
So it's very complex. On the 27th of May, me and Professor Joaquin, we went to the local conservatory and registered ISER. So ISER has members from 30 countries in six continents. It comprises academics and researchers from across the globe.
01:14:30
Speaker
That led me also to reach out to the group that existed or was not C-TECH, which is the Center for Transdisciplinary Studies of Consciousness at the University of Venezuela. So it's a think tank, a research department inside the university. It was also an evolution from past groups. Nowadays, it was a little bit more dormant.
01:14:53
Speaker
And so I reached out to the department and we had in the exactly exotic Portugal group, we had worked in the past close to them. And so I reached out to them and I said, well, we can maybe use this international group to promote more serious research. And that's why how stellar was born.
01:15:14
Speaker
We made a proposal to the Dean of the University. We talked with the researchers. We made contact with other academics from different universities in Portugal, University of Coimbra, Lisbon, Braga, Villagial. And we have people from the natural sciences and the social sciences, people from the mathematics and physicists and psychiatrists and philosophers, et cetera.
01:15:42
Speaker
a wide approach to the phenomenon. And as we saw with Fatima, I think that wide approach is really necessary because it is a very, very complex phenomenon. So is it fair to say then that Stella is a project primarily focused on research on academic research into UAPs or does it have as its mission statement also to well spread the word about UAPs and have more of a kind of public policy function?
01:16:12
Speaker
I would say it's more the mission of ICER to start preparing the public to less stigma and a more serious discussion about the phenomena and also have some activism in terms of reaching out to the governments and
01:16:29
Speaker
see the documents being shared to the public. That's more the mission of ICER. In terms of stellar, it's more the research. It's more of a think tank, not only about the UFO, but about all the phenomena that comes with the UFO. And like you said, you gave the example of Dr. Jack Valle, who sent from
01:16:54
Speaker
Early in the beginning of his research, he comprehended that the phenomena age much more than the simple hypothesis of extraterrestrial visitors. It's more about what is reality. Where are we immersed in?
01:17:11
Speaker
Exactly. I think this brings us to a very important point because I've worked in academia myself for quite a number of years and one thing I always really hated was writing funding proposals, you know, but you have to do it. So the question here now is where does the money come from? Because it is a very complex academic pursuit where you don't have data that perhaps in a classic sense qualify for
01:17:41
Speaker
I'm going to say it's not peer review, but I think we need to refine our methodology of what we're actually studying and dealing with. So what is the funding landscape? What do you have any projects already in place to fund components of whatever the stellar project is doing? Yeah, that's exactly. Funding money is always a problem, especially in this area, of course.
01:18:05
Speaker
For instance, in ISER, we have the members that can make their annual fee donations for the organization, of course, and that's our main budget. Also, we try to reach out to other organizations or civilians that may be interested in being like patrons to the organization. The same thing applies to Stellar, although we do indeed have an ad in the past
01:18:32
Speaker
and especially with the team of with Professor Joaquin Fernandes. There were some people from other areas of research that saw the UFO phenomena as credible enough to put money for research and other ventures connected to it. So that was possible in the past and it is possible also nowadays.
01:18:57
Speaker
there's an open door for, at least here in Portugal, to have some money flowing to fund research. Research in terms of, for instance, what are the rules of the altered states of consciousness
01:19:13
Speaker
in regard to the phenomena, for instance. That's where it is more easily to get funding to the study of the phenomena.
Funding and International UAP Advocacy
01:19:21
Speaker
There are two or three cases currently going on. Other areas of research in terms of the sociological impact
01:19:30
Speaker
in terms of not only of high strangeness, but also of the sightings itself, what qualifies for a UFO. It's just like we have a small phenomenon. It's very specific phenomenon that we can see here in the north part of Portugal and in some inner country areas, which is small. They call it like the Little Souls, because it's a very small light that goes on
01:20:00
Speaker
through the forest, you know? Oh, like a fairy light. More or less, yes. Yeah, interesting. Does that qualify as a UFO, right? Indeed, yeah. But I think it's very true what you said, and also a bit ironic, because I myself have a social science background, and I think it might be easier actually to get funding for these sorts of projects from that angle, because in the social sciences, it doesn't really matter
01:20:29
Speaker
Or it's not primarily important whether there's an objective reality to what you study because you study the effects on what people say about it. And I think you can see that with what Dr. Pasulka has been doing in American cosmic. I think it's a very, very good approach because
01:20:48
Speaker
through that angle it is possible to get funding in order to bring public awareness to this topic. Where I do see in terms of research issues is with a classic natural sciences approach A because they tend to be quite expensive
01:21:05
Speaker
And B, also because I'm not really sure with this phenomenon if they're going to produce the results that we really want in the sense that what are they going to clarify. I think the research questions for this phenomenon are so broad at the moment.
01:21:23
Speaker
that perhaps we need to start from a more philosophical social sciences point of view and then narrow in on the expense of natural science questions we want to actually ask. Exactly, because there may not be just one answer to the question, there may be many answers.
01:21:44
Speaker
And we may be missing a very big part of the scenario because we are not prepared physiological.
01:21:56
Speaker
to deal with it. It's something that will always escape us, because we are not still formatted. Like even Jeffrey Cripple, and with lightsaber with their book, excellent book Supernatural. It's quite interesting to see how the phenomena or the interpretation of the phenomena adapts in terms of the current paradigm. For instance, you have
01:22:22
Speaker
on the year 312, the conversion of Constantine, where he sees the cross in the sky and leads him to convert to Christianism, and is a major factor in terms of the establishment of the Christian Church. But he saw some kind of a cross in the sky. In 1139,
01:22:46
Speaker
There's a big battle here in Portugal for still for the independence fighting with the Moors coming from from North and North Africa and our first King sees a cross and Because of that he's motivated to and he wins a big battle, which is a major major situation here 1229
01:23:12
Speaker
The vision of St. Francis of Asses also sees a cross, etc. And you go to Fatima and people see crosses also in the sky. Until then, it's a religious interpretation. But from then on, it's more UFOs, it's more extraterrestrial. So it's an adaptation of the same phenomena.
01:23:38
Speaker
Yes, especially in the US where you don't work. I guess in the US you do have very strong religious currents, but I think the technocratic, you know, kind of objective focus on reality, at least as portrayed as always the dominant one. And I think in the US right from, you know, right from Arnold's first sightings, you always had this focus on kind of, you know, the nuts and bolts kind of issue. And so I think there's a lot of truth to how
01:24:06
Speaker
You know, on the one hand, it's how we interpret the phenomenon, but on the other hand, there's also this feedback system to how the phenomenon then responds to us. And I mean, the other classic example, I think... And what you were saying a few minutes ago, the difference of methodology, the natural science going to more equantative methodology and the social sciences, a qualitative methodology. And so we have to fit both
01:24:35
Speaker
and not only see the hard data, but also see the quality of the witness, the quality of the testimony, et cetera. Because, for instance, if you go to parts with someone, even if you don't have the real piece that you can rely on the witness testimony still. Exactly the same thing. We need to approach this in a very more broader perspective.
01:25:00
Speaker
Absolutely. So getting funding and putting up research proposals, et cetera, is one part of the equation. But the other one is also to find kind of channels and outlets where you can publish this research. And so I think before the podcast side or during the podcast, I can remember you said that you recently were part of the launch conference for Limina. Is that correct? No, no, no.
01:25:25
Speaker
Now, we were invited to participate in the Limina Symposium organized by the Society of UAP Studies. Dr. Mike Zafon reached out to us and he, of course, he knew the work done by Joachim Fernandes about Fatima.
01:25:43
Speaker
And we also had, like, right now, allowing us to talk about Stellar. And yeah, we talked about Stellar. And also, because in ISER, we are right now with the project Titan, which is trying to revive the 1978 initiative with the UN.
01:26:04
Speaker
Back in 1978, Sir Eric Gehry, the Prime Minister of Grenada, he tried to have the UFO phenomenon discussed at the UN. So the idea was to have an agency from the UN that would study this phenomenon. In the end,
01:26:22
Speaker
There was a decision made, the decision 33 slash 426, that invited members to study the phenomena and share their conclusions, which was a little bit different from the initial goal. And right now we with San Marino,
01:26:41
Speaker
We're going to the Submarino. We presented this project on September 2021, where Lou Elizondo was also a witness to this process, and he has been helping us as well, and Chris Mellon and Dr. Jack Palais. We proposed this to the government of the Submarino, and right now, on the 19th of January of 2023,
01:27:03
Speaker
there was a meeting inside the government, they approved this project. So it is going to be presented and discussed in a General Assembly of the UN. So we are right now preparing and we will need all the support from everyone in the broader society to make this happen. And we are having meetings to exactly prepare the best strategy to reach the goal that we want.
01:27:33
Speaker
I hope the podcast can make a contribution to this. A modest one, hopefully. Coming back to Limina, it's a great project to have a peer-reviewed journal set up for UEP issues. Are there any issues already been published? Are there volumes already in circulation? The minutes of the Limina symposium are going to be published, if I'm not mistaken.
01:28:02
Speaker
And they want to have also a peer-reviewed publication. I don't know exactly the regularity of it, but it will definitely happen. And that's their main goal. They will be promoting also, from what I understood, some lectures, online lectures, with different approaches from the natural sciences and the social sciences. But I think the best
01:28:29
Speaker
way to have the idea what is indeed limina and the Society for U.P. Studies would be to talk to Dr. Mike Siffon. I know he will be in Germany in June. He will be in France and probably here in Portugal as well.
01:28:45
Speaker
Perfect, might have to get him on the podcast. Excellent. Can you share any concrete deliverables, results of research that has been done by Stella? Are there ongoing projects with ongoing results? Or is it still? We have not published any results so far.
01:29:03
Speaker
There have been some studies being done, especially again with the alter states of consciousness. Yes. And yes, we will try to have it published. I don't know when exactly. We don't have a timeline for that. But that's a goal, of course. We need to also to present results, of course.
01:29:23
Speaker
If this is not only the name, we need to work, and we have been working more because the members are spread across Portugal, so we have Zoom meetings with some regularity, but it's more than that, of course, and we will try to publish something maybe next year. I don't know. I don't know exactly when.
01:29:43
Speaker
And with the alter states of consciousness in the sense of that they are the result of UAP encounters or that they facilitate UAP encounters, because I think there are two angles to this. So that perhaps, you know, individuals like Lucia, for instance, from Fatima had a certain predisposition to actually being able to experience these phenomena. What's the rule of consciousness in all of this? That's the big question.
01:30:08
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. What's the role of the observer in relate to the phenomena? And what is reality? It's highly complex.
01:30:22
Speaker
Yes, I think that is the overarching question. Personally, I am very enthralled by this entire skinwalker ranch phenomenon. I think it is problematical in the sense that it's been portrayed by the media at the moment and also with the stock as well pseudo-documentary. I think it's doing more harm than anything else. But if you look at both skinwalkers at the Pentagon and hunt for the skinwalker,
01:30:49
Speaker
I mean, these are essentially, perhaps with Jack Verlay's books, the only books you really need to read to, in my opinion, to grasp the complexity of it. And that's why I was also very excited to have Joachim on this first podcast to discuss Fatima, because it's similarly complex, involving consciousness, close encounters, mass UAP sighting.
01:31:12
Speaker
And I think the only common denominator it boils down to is the role of human consciousness. And until we have understood that, I think it's going to be very complex to make further progress here. Exactly. You said it all, of course. That's exactly it. And Fatma is a good example. Although the skin walker is something that is manifesting
01:31:35
Speaker
throughout time. Fatima happened once, although, like Zhuking was saying with his latest book, The Other Fatimas, where he identified at least 52 apparitions throughout time.
01:31:52
Speaker
in history only in Portugal. So similar situations, some of them very similar to what happened on the 13th of October, 1917. So they've got the miracle of this and there are at least two other examples very similar, but not maybe with not so many witnesses. So the impact was not as big. But yes, it's very complex. I mean, it's a six month period of manifestations.
01:32:21
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. And I think just to wrap this up, it brings us back to kind of the old but very important question, what constitutes data? Because I think both Fatima Skinwalker and other UP
01:32:38
Speaker
cases. Yes, there is a knots and bolts aspect to them, but that's definitely not all. And I think until we've grappled with this, the role that human consciousness plays in that, then it's going to be very, very difficult because, for instance, I'm just putting myself in the shoes of someone who's
01:32:56
Speaker
you know let's say in the european research council trying to prove you know of funding for a project and then i get data like the ones that skin walk around you know where things just. Happen but you never record them because the phenomenon or whatever intelligence it is boycotts any attempt to come up with a scientific conclusions,
01:33:15
Speaker
I think that is very difficult if we pursue this agenda of trying to narrow it down with objective data. And it's something, hopefully, as this podcast is progressing, I will be able to talk more about with different researchers, because it's something that really is at the root of how we do science, the entire epistemological framework behind it. But listen, Francisco, you've been very generous with your time.
01:33:43
Speaker
No, I only can thank you because we need to spread the word and it's through this type of podcasts that we can make our work known to the other publics, of course, and motivate people also to be more interested in researching and knowing more. So I can only thank you for your time and your interest and for the invitation, of course, and wish you the best success in your podcast.
01:34:11
Speaker
Thanks a lot. On a closing note, where can people find you? Do you have a website, perhaps on the Stellar website, or where are you? I have several websites. ICER is ICER.network. It's an institutional website, so there are some news, but it's mainly institutional. If you want to know more about Project Titan, you can find everything there.
01:34:37
Speaker
Stellar is stellar.l.com.pt. It's mainly in Portuguese. There are some things in English and Spanish where you have the coordination team, the scientific council, and the advisory council. I think we are 35 in a whole, mainly Portuguese people from different universities, like I said, and from different areas of knowledge.
01:35:03
Speaker
And you have the ExoPortix Portugal, which is ExoPortixPortugal.com, also an institutional or website where you also find some information with Joachim Fernandez, et cetera. So you'll be collaborating. And that's it, basically. Perfect. And I'll make sure to put a link to the Stella project on ISA in the description. Great. Thanks a lot, Francisco. And hopefully see you again soon. Yeah, you too. Bye bye. Bye bye.