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Spider-Man 2
183 Plays3 years ago
You don't get to the MCU without first going through Spider-Man 2. In this episode, Derick McDuff of the Underrated podcast joins to have a look back at what is still considered one of the best superhero movies ever. We talk about what still holds up really well, like Peter Parker balancing his personal life with his web-slinging, the standout performances from Molina and Franco, and some things that don't hold up, like the treatment of Mary Jane. Also, we discuss some of the tropes this film helped cement that still appear in superhero movies to this day.
Listen to Derick on the Underrated and Infinity Stones and Dragon Bones podcasts.
Help support the show by buying or renting this movie on Amazon.
Want to tell us what you think? Have any questions or comments for Perry about superheroes in media or comics? Leave a voice message to play on the show. You can also apply to be a guest on the show.
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Transcript
Dramatic Tension with Spider-Man
00:00:15
Speaker
Do you love me or not?
00:00:50
Speaker
I need to know something. Just one kiss.
00:01:58
Speaker
Peter Parker. And the girlfriend. What do you want? I want you to find your friend, Spider-Man. Tell him to meet me at the West Side Tower at three o'clock. I don't know where he is. Find him. Or I'll peel the flesh off her bones. If you lay one finger on her... You'll do that.
00:02:31
Speaker
Oh.
00:03:05
Speaker
No! No!
Introduction of Hosts and Guest
00:03:37
Speaker
Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles Podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine, and bringing on another guest today. This is actually a different Derek than our departed co-host, and that is Derek McDuff. How you doing today? I'm doing well. Thank you for having me on. Well, thanks for coming on. So before we get started today, why don't you tell people a little bit about yourself?
00:03:57
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. So I am, like you said, Derek McDuff, I am the one of the co hosts of another podcast called Underrated, where we talk about movies and TV shows and stuff like that. I'm also a writer for Work for Watchmojo and stuff like that. But yeah, I love talking about movies and superhero movies have always been some of my favorites. So I wanted to reach out and come on and talk about one of my favorites with you.
00:04:19
Speaker
Yeah, and I'm looking forward to talking about this movie as well, but I want to talk a little bit about some of your other stuff.
Talking Alien 3 and Studio Influence
00:04:26
Speaker
So first off, about underrated, and I got to ask because this is my favorite underrated movie. Have you guys talked about Alien 3 yet?
00:04:34
Speaker
No, we haven't. That's a good one. That is, that is a weird movie. Like you can tell that like there's David Fincher's brilliance kind of comes through there. There was so much studio interference. There was like multiple scripts going on. And so we haven't gotten to that one yet, but that is a good one to do in the future. We gotta talk about it.
00:04:51
Speaker
So I'm putting you on the spot. If you guys do Alien 3, you got to have me on. All right. All right. You got to deal. Because when I was in university, I took a class in horror films and I wrote my final essay was about the three Alien movies and how Alien 3 is actually the perfect conclusion to the trilogy.
00:05:09
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's good. So do you prefer the theatrical version or I think it's called the editor's cut or did it- The assembly's cut, the assembly cut. Yeah, I prefer that one. I think it's much more cohesive. It makes more sense. It's got a lot of good scenes in it that were cut out. Everything seems to flow a lot better. I mean, I still wish Fincher would have done an actual director's cut, but he had sworn off any involvement with that movie after what he had gone through.
00:05:37
Speaker
I feel like I don't think I've ever heard him say aliens. You're like allude to it all the time. Like when I did that talk about it. Yeah. Yeah, he just he's he was so traumatized by that that he just will not talk about it at all. Yeah. So yeah, I'm putting you on the spot. When you guys talk about that, you got to have me on. All right. You got to deal. All right.
Derek's 90s Superhero Nostalgia
00:05:57
Speaker
Now, you also said you're a fan of superhero movies. So what is your background with superheroes?
00:06:03
Speaker
So, you know, I as a kid, you know, I grew up in the 90s, so I watched all those like great 90s superhero shows, you know, obviously Spider-Man, Batman, X-Men, all that stuff. And they were kind of doing the things the movies are doing now, you know.
00:06:18
Speaker
10, 15 years ahead of time where they would have crossover episodes where a Spider-Man would go meet the X-Men or Daredevil would show up. They were kind of building their own little cinematic universes. You know, you had the Bruce Timbers on the DC side and they had all the great stuff that I loved, all the Marvel stuff, you know, and then, you know,
00:06:33
Speaker
I didn't read a ton of comics, but the stuff I'd read the most, especially as a teenager, was I got really into the Ultimates, or the Ultimate Lion, I should say, you know, Ultimate Spider-Man, Ultimate X-Men, and the Ultimates, aka the Avengers
Ultimate Marvel's MCU Impact
00:06:47
Speaker
and the Ultimate Universe. So I got really into that, which, you know, that was obviously a huge influence.
00:06:53
Speaker
on the MCU, and I got really into all of the superhero movies in my teen years. And after that, I became a huge fan of the MCU. One of the first things I ever did for podcasting was I started a podcast called Infinity Stones and Dragon Bones, and it's actually technically still going. And whenever there's a new Marvel show or movie, we kind of do just a new episode of that. So I've always been a really big fan of superheroes, but especially of Marvel stuff, and especially of Spider-Man.
00:07:21
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I remember that we grew up probably similar time. And I remember watching that. I remember being so excited when they had that crossover episode between Spider-Man and the X-Men because they had had crossover stuff in the old Spider-Man animated series. You had the X-Men pop up a few times and Spider-Man and his amazing friends.
00:07:45
Speaker
This was the first time that there was another show that existed that were crossing over. So it was a huge deal. Yeah, absolutely. It was so cool to see that kind of you're like, well, you can do that. You know, that was always the thing that had been happening in the comics for decades and decades. And it was so cool to see that in, you know, a live medium with like actual, you know, voice actors and, you know, getting to see the characters move and talk and stuff like that. And obviously, you know, we're spoiled nowadays and that's all we get. But that was like the first time that it really happened.
00:08:14
Speaker
in a medium like that. Yeah, I remember back in those days I always tell the story that I remember when I was watching Batman Forever in the theater and Bruce Wayne just says Metropolis at one point and I remember freaking out like they exist in the same universe. That was all we got in live action for years.
00:08:30
Speaker
There is a moment like that in the movie we're going to talk about today. I was just like, oh, shit. Yeah, yeah, you can. You can. But yeah, that moment always, I remember when I saw it at the theater and I was freaking out and my friends were like, why? Like, I'll explain later. Or probably didn't explain because it was, you know, that was before comic books were cool. But like you mentioned, today we're talking about Spider-Man 2.
Praising Spider-Man 2's Influence
00:09:01
Speaker
This movie, I think was because, you know, I grew up, like you said, like I grew up also in the nineties. I was born in 83, but so most of my formative years were in the nineties. And in that time, we didn't have much in the way of good superhero movies, at least not like the big ones like that. We had, you know, Christopher Reeve, Superman from 1978. We had Tim Burton's Batman from 1989, but there was like nothing in between. So,
00:09:29
Speaker
This movie and X-Men 2, X-2 were like the first two movies that I think I was really like, oh, these are really special for superhero movies. And I'm not knocking the first X-Men or Spider-Man, but they didn't have the same impact that those sequels did, I felt.
00:09:50
Speaker
No, yeah, I totally agree. And I feel like honestly, you could really trace a lot of what the MCU is directly back to this movie. Like you said, there were obviously superhero movies before, but they were never like this. They never felt like, you know, they were jumping off the comic page, you know, they were always like,
00:10:09
Speaker
You know, okay, here's Superman, but it's just kind of, you know, like, it's kind of more like the serials or here's Batman, but it's kind of Tim Burton's take. And the X-Men movies were at least the first one was like, honestly, even kind of ashamed to be a superhero. I feel like they're like, ah, what would you want to wear, yellow spandex? But you can't change Spider-Man's costume like Peter Parker is so iconic. You know, you can't really rewrite him.
00:10:29
Speaker
Really in any meaningful way, or changes costume really because he that's, you know, everyone knows that that costume, and he's obviously had some different ones of the years but his
00:10:39
Speaker
like you know the blue and red is so iconic and just to see that on the big screen and you know I think that it is probably this and maybe Batman Begins the year after are the two most important movies in terms of like getting us to where we are today and we're just like superhero movies dominating everything and maybe this one even a little bit I say we edged out Batman Begins a little bit
00:11:04
Speaker
I think it would because Batman Begins still also had a little bit of that, we're a little bit ashamed to be calling ourselves a superhero movie thing, the whole idea of it has to be set in the real world type of thing, whereas, and the X-Men had that too, and the costume is something that,
00:11:20
Speaker
I remember when we saw the first images of the costume from the first Spider-Man movie. And because the whole buildup to all that was like, we knew Sam Raimi was directing it. We knew it was coming. But the big question was, how are they gonna handle the costume? Because you can't really put Spider-Man in black leather. You can do that with the X-Men.
00:11:40
Speaker
Right, because the X-Men, their concept, it works there. You can do that with Batman. You can put them in black rubber, but you can't really do that with like Superman. You can't really do that with Spider-Man. There was a lot of questions over how are they gonna make the costume work? And even, I remember Alex Ross even designed a version of the costume that he thought is what a movie version of Spider-Man would look like. And it was basically replaced all the blue with black and it was a lot more streamlined. And it's a cool design too, but it wasn't the classic one.
00:12:10
Speaker
And that was like what we thought was like the best we were gonna get. And then we saw the first image and it was basically the costume from the comics, which nobody was expecting that. It blew everybody away at the time.
00:12:23
Speaker
Yeah. And also I think this is, it was, you know, came out 2004. So that was like right when CG, you know, was probably starting to get good enough to make a good Spider-Man movie. Cause you watch like the live action Spider-Man stuff from a year's pass. It's kind of a little bit laugh about it. You know, it's the 1970s one. Yeah. The Nick Hammond stuff.
00:12:42
Speaker
Yeah, like it's it's rough. It's a rough because unlike, you know, Batman and all these guys, Spider-Man, his whole thing is he's so just like he's just swinging around and doing all these like physically impossible things. And he's like bending back. And you can have, you know, athletic people do things that are somewhat unbelievable and stuff. And you can have like a guy just kind of like fly up into the air. But, you know, doing all these acrobatic things and swinging through a city, you do kind of need to see that. And I remember way back
00:13:09
Speaker
forever ago seeing some extra on like the Spider-Man DVD where the producers at Sony who are consistently dumb, I feel like, were like, oh yeah, you got to have it, just do it all practical. And I love practical effects obviously, but like, you know, there's times when you need to integrate CG and have a good balance of them. And they like showed them some like be like real of like, oh, here's, you know, Tom McGuire like doing all this stunts. And it was actually like CG and they tricked
00:13:34
Speaker
producers at Sony and that's how they were able to get the CG of the movie because it was like still like at the time like you know there were some rough scenes like the Scorpion King had come out like a year before the Mummy Returns had come out like a year before the first Spider-Man movie so people weren't all in on CG so I think it was right at the time where it was like and it wasn't like everything needed to be CG they still had there's still a lot of practical stuff like a lot of ox arms and stuff like that in this movie still look great you know um
00:13:59
Speaker
But so we found a really good balance and it came out of the perfect time for this movie, I think. Yeah, this movie did a lot of really good work because if you watch some of the movies with that early CG work it.
00:14:12
Speaker
you can kind of see the scene when you're looking back at it now. And there are a few moments in this movie, even where if you're looking closely enough, you can kind of tell when something's a little bit off, but they really did a good job of balancing it well with the CG and the practical effects. Whereas if you compare it to say Spider-Man 3, which came out a few years after this, where they had used, the CG was a little bit heavier in that movie. And I remember the,
00:14:39
Speaker
the battle between um peter and harry that aerial battle it's like it the background looks much more obviously cg compared to this movie where it looks much more integrated into the whole thing um and also if you look my favorite example is the first blade movie um where deacon frost transforms into the giant blood monster and he looks like just and it just looks like giant purple jelly or something
Balancing Effects in Spider-Man 2
00:15:05
Speaker
Well, it's like, you know, if you look at the Hobbit movies, those movies with all their CG actually look worse than the Lord of the Rings movies, which came out 10 years before. And they obviously are both, you know, I think the Hobbit movies probably had a bigger budget. They were just as huge a production. They had a lot of the same people working on it. But with the Hobbit movies, they were like, let's just CG everything.
00:15:24
Speaker
where the Lord of the Rings were like, we'll use CG when we need to, but we're still going to do all these practical things. You're still going to have orcs be mostly wearing prosthetics and stuff, and the Hobbit, they're just like, fuck it, just make everything. This guy is CG, this guy is CG. And then the Lord of the Rings are like, OK, we'll do it when we have to. We have to CG Gollum, but we don't have to CG everything else. And I think that's why the Lord of the Rings movies hold up so much better than the Hobbit movies. And it's a similar thing you're seeing with a lot of these superhero movies.
00:15:51
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So let's jump into the talk about the movie. I think one of the things I especially love about this movie, and this goes back to the whole superhero thing, is I don't think, not since Superman the movie,
00:16:06
Speaker
was there a movie that was as unabashedly proud to be a superhero movie as this one was? Like it just, Sam Raimi is obviously, you know, he gets being a superhero fan, he gets being a comic book fan and he's not shying away from that. Whereas if you have someone like, you know, Bryan Singer or Christopher Nolan who didn't come in as fans, so they don't get that. And so they don't have that same kind of,
00:16:31
Speaker
love for the source material that Sam Raimi obviously does. And that really makes a difference in the final product. That love of the source material really shines through. Like this isn't someone who's just throwing in visual cues to the comic books because he knows the fans want it. He's doing it because he wants it himself.
00:16:53
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. You can really tell that, you know, this is a movie for Spider-Man fans. It's not just like, OK, well, we have the rights to Spider-Man. We got to make a movie. Otherwise, they'll go back to Marvel or whatever, you know, they were doing with the Fantastic Four. So it does feel like a real labor of love. And I think.
00:17:09
Speaker
You know, you see all the people that came from this, like we talked about how this is kind of a precursor, like this feels like the grandfather of Marvel. You know, you have Kevin Feige. He worked on this and X-Men, a lot of these movies that he learned a lot of lessons. You have Alfred Goff and Miles Miller, who are some of, I think, the most underrated writers in all of Hollywood. They also did, you know, superhero stuff. They were the creators and showrunners for the first couple of seasons of Smallville.
00:17:35
Speaker
So you have a lot of people who really are caring about making something that is a good Spider-Man movie. And they've been trying for a while to make a Spider-Man movie. We could have had a horrible James Cameron Spider-Man movie with Arnold Schwarzenegger as Doc Ock. The script for that is insane. If anyone's ever read it, it is just wild. It is, yeah.
00:17:57
Speaker
And you know, and then, you know, just kind of what you're saying reminds me of a there's this story and I love Batman, but this is a really good story of when apparently Kevin Smith had kind of called out Tim Burton for cribbing the ending of his Planet of the Apes movie from the comic. That was a, it was actually a joke he made and some reporter took it seriously and then asked him Burton about it.
00:18:19
Speaker
Yeah. And Burton was like, you know, I don't read comic books, especially not Kevin Smith comic books. And then Kevin Smith's line coming back was, well, that explains Batman. So it is, you know, it doesn't matter that you have people, like as much as I love the Batman movies, especially Batman Begins, you know, like you said, Nolan isn't like a Batman guy. And, you know, Sam Rami is obviously a big Spider-Man guy.
00:18:42
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So going back and rewatching this, I think one of the things that I love about this movie is, especially the opening sequence, it's, I think, The Amazing Spider-Man 2 also did this really good, where the opening sequence is so perfectly a Spider-Man thing,
Peter Parker's Double Life Theme
00:18:58
Speaker
right? Where he is, he's Peter Parker, he's trying to do stuff as Peter Parker, but the Spider-Man stuff keeps intruding on his life.
00:19:08
Speaker
The Amazing Spider-Man 2 also did that in the opposite way where they had him mostly as Spider-Man while he was talking on the phone as Peter Parker and trying to balance those two. And I love those intros to both those movies because it really nails what the central problem of Peter's life is, is it's trying to balance the superhero with the personal.
00:19:28
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. You know, I got that vibe and I was really surprised going back and rewatching this how little he is Spider-Man, especially in the first half. Like he is Spider-Man, but there's a lot of stuff where he's just like dealing with his personal problems as Peter Parker. And I think that's what's...
00:19:44
Speaker
endeared me and so many people to Peter Parker and Spider-Man is just that he is so real. And when Stanley wrote him, he was like, you know, way back in the sixties, he wanted to make somebody who was a relatable character and like have the secret identity be just as interesting as like the powers, you know, and have this guy be really relatable and have all these problems and having him be Spider-Man causes these problems. You see that so much in this.
00:20:09
Speaker
And I think that's why for a really long time, up until very recently, I was like, this is my favorite Spider-Man movie, one of my favorite superhero movies ever, because he is feeling these effects of, and he just kind of, you know, at the midpoint of the movie, he's like, I quit. I don't wanna do this anymore. It's messing up my life. And he realizes like, no, like I have to, you know, with this great power, accept this great responsibility and go out and make a couple sacrifices in my life to do things for the greater good. And that's what makes him,
00:20:38
Speaker
Such a cool, great character. And I think especially that scene where that train sequence, which is one of the all time great action set pieces, you know, you get to see Spider-Man save people. And that's what I felt like was missing from a lot of
00:20:55
Speaker
the more like the later Marvel movies up until the most recent Spider-Man movie, I think he didn't he was more like, okay, I'm going to be a vendor, I'm going to save the world. But he wasn't like, okay, I'm just going to help this person out. And this when he's like, oh, that's his main objective is like, this train is running, I could go leave it and fight Doc Ock, but I got to stay on this train. I got to save these people, you know,
00:21:14
Speaker
That's us. Just as a brief note, that's one of the things I loved about the Andrew Garfield movies is when he takes those moments to help people out. Like when he, in Amazing Spider-Man 2, when he helps, when he starts just walking and talking to the little kid about his science project. And just like those little moments. I mean, those movies have a whole lot of other problems, but those moments were what
00:21:35
Speaker
you know, keep what is why I still like those movies is because of moments like that where they really get into his character and yeah the the train sequence and we're going to talk about the train sequence because I I haven't I can't remember when the last time I saw this movie was before preparing for this it it had been a few years at least maybe like two years I think since I last seen this movie and watching that train sequence again I mean
00:21:58
Speaker
I forgot how amazing it is. And we'll get to that. So I do want to talk about that a little bit more in depth, but I think too, this movie, and you mentioned a good point there is the whole fact that he's not Spider-Man a lot during this time, but the movie doesn't make the mistake of, I think a lot of other superhero movies where they keep the character out of costume for a lot where
00:22:25
Speaker
It never goes too long without having a Spider-Man moment, right? So we have moments where he becomes Spider-Man, like, you know,
00:22:32
Speaker
We see him stopping a bank robber. We see him stopping a carjacking or whatever. There are these little moments in there where he has to suit up and do the Spider-Man thing. And I think that was really key. I think that helps us remember the fact that, okay, he's got this struggle between the dual identities. And also it's not letting us forget that it's a Spider-Man movie, even though it's not involving the main villain plot.
00:22:57
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think that it works really well too with kind of reinforcing the themes of the movie of just because he'll be trying to like not be Spider-Man. He'll be trying to be Peter and they just kind of get, oh, no, I've got to do this thing. You know, here's some bank robbers that just showed up while I'm going to try and go see Mary Jane's player. I'm just trying to go to the bank so that my aunt doesn't get kicked out of her house. And now, like, there's a bank robber with dock off happening and she's get so it just keeps interrupting his life. And, you know, like I said, there is so many
00:23:24
Speaker
you know, superhero movies, like I'm thinking of like, you know, the Dark Knight Rises where like the whole beginning of that movie, he's not Batman. And then there's like another long stress where he's not Batman, but this is, you know, kind of peppered in like, okay, here's a good Spider-Man scene. Here's a good Spider-Man scene. But you never lose the threat of him being Peter Parker and how that affects him. It's not two separate stories. It's all kind of woven together. Yeah. I don't think there was another superhero movie at this time that had done such a good job of balancing the two aspects of the two identities because they either,
00:23:53
Speaker
lean too far into one or the other. I mean, talking about the Superman movies, they always, they leaned very heavily into the Superman stuff. And they touched very lightly on the Clark Kent stuff. Whereas the Batman movies, they tend to do the opposite. They tended to lean very heavily into the Bruce Wayne stuff, at least like in Batman Forever. They leaned very heavily into Bruce Wayne. And then Batman and Robin had the opposite where they leaned very heavily into the Batman persona. And he's only Bruce Wayne in like two scenes in that movie.
00:24:22
Speaker
Or then the Burton movies where Batman only appears in like 30 minutes and Batman returns. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right about that. It is a really hard balance to find. And I think that's because it's so hard. That's part of the reason why, you know, a lot of modern superhero movies have kind of just gotten rid of super secret identities and just kind of made them, you know, like, OK, Iron Man is Iron Man, you know,
00:24:45
Speaker
Thor is just always Thor, like his secret identity isn't even in the thing. It's a hard balance to strike, but you can't really do that with Spider-Man. I think he's like one of the very few characters in the MCU that actually still has a secret identity. So that's a big aspect of him and all the hardships that he goes through. They really managed to find the, you know, kind of toe that line really well here. Yeah, the secret identity trope,
00:25:10
Speaker
With I think one of the reasons why is that the MCU had started off with so many characters that the secret identity trope had never really felt like a good fit for like Iron Man having the secret identity and like the whole thing about this Iron Man being Tony Stark's bodyguard that always felt kind of like tacked on whenever Steve Rogers was trying to have a Steve Rogers secret identity.
00:25:33
Speaker
It never, it never felt right, same thing with like Thor and Don Blake those, those secret identity aspects they never quite work with those characters which is why in the comics and kind of jettison them and then why the movies also kind of followed that same track, but you're right with Spider Man you can't do that you have to have the dual identity and every time.
00:25:53
Speaker
They've tried to, you know, take take away the dual identity in the comics or in the movies. They've always ended up having to reverse it somehow later on because they realize that you can do it for a story or something. But long term, it doesn't work for this character. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I know people are not a huge fan.
00:26:11
Speaker
kind of one more day and let so it makes sense to kind of have him be the one character in the MCU who's kept his identity because a lot of like you were saying a lot of those characters doesn't really work for them it feels like just kind of something that was it's been baked a trope that it's just kind of been baked into well we're making the superhero he needs to have a secret identity
00:26:29
Speaker
But as was here, you know, Spider-Man, his whole thing is a dual identity and the kind of like, who are we on the outside? Who are we on the inside? You know, are we the person that, you know, we reveal to the world? And, you know, Batman Begins does that really well, too, where he's like, am I the person who, you know, is it who am I who? I can't remember what he says exactly, but am I whoever defines, am I whoever defines me? Like, you know, that whole thing. Right. It's what you do that defines you.
00:26:55
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you. I couldn't remember the line. And that's a very, very big thing with Spider-Man. Is he Peter Parker? Is he Spider-Man? Is he some kind of combination of the two? And I think that's why Peter Parker is such a well-known thing and why his secret identity is
00:27:11
Speaker
almost as popular as the character of Spider-Man and why up until you know the last 10 or however years when Miles Morales got introduced, unlike you know so many other characters which have had all the you know people step into roles like, you know, there's been, you know, however many different characters that have put on, like, there's been a few different Batman even there've been
00:27:31
Speaker
you know, all these different characters that have stepped into whatever superhero role. But Spider-Man has pretty much always been Peter Parker. There have been, you know, recently Miles Morales and all these guys, like I was saying, are really cool. But Peter Parker is iconic. Right. I mean, that's why, yeah, like in the 90s when they had
00:27:49
Speaker
the clone saga and Ben Riley stepped in why eventually they had to reverse that because even though he was quote unquote the real Peter Parker, nobody felt like he was so they that's why they eventually had to go back and undo that. Yeah, absolutely. And
00:28:06
Speaker
I wanna talk about Doc Ock in this. Cause I think one of my biggest problems with the first Spider-Man movie is that I don't buy Norman's motivation as much. I don't buy Norman as a character. And I feel like once he kills the Oscorp board of directors, he has no reason to keep putting on the goblin suit. And so I, and I always felt like when he's telling Spider-Man like,
Doc Ock's Complex Character
00:28:34
Speaker
or we can control this city, we can take over the city. I just, every time he says that, I always find myself thinking, but why do you want to? I don't know why you want to. You're like the richest man in the country now. You've gotten rid of all your opposition. Why does this matter to you? It doesn't make any sense. Whereas this, I totally buy Doc Ock's motivation, right? He's trying to, he's first being driven crazy by the arms, which I do have some issues with that, which you can talk about, because I think it's weird that
00:29:03
Speaker
the arms want him to build the AI thing. It always seems kind of weird why the arms want that anyway, but that's a different story. But the overall thing, whereas like I built this fusion machine, I know I can get it to work. I have to keep working on it. I have to finish my work. I get that motivation. It makes so much more sense. And his,
00:29:29
Speaker
Cause Doc Ock in the comics, he's always been, you know, kind of for a while, he was always kind of one note in a way, right? He wasn't really, he was just very much the arrogant mad scientist type. Even in his first appearance, he was all, he was very arrogant. He wasn't, he didn't have a likable side to him, not really. And I was really surprised when I watched this, how much I liked Octavius in the beginning here.
00:29:52
Speaker
Yeah, no, he is, you know, a big part of that I think is obviously Alfred Molina is just incredible in this and, but yeah, he is kind of that like tragic figure, this like really likable villain, which is something that, you know, wasn't, I don't think hugely popular at the time. You know, you look at all the Batman villains and you look at like the Superman villain, like Lex Luthor, all these guys, they're not like tragic guys, you know, who could have, you know, been the hero in another story, but, you know, with Spider-Man and then also- We did have Magneto though, yeah.
00:30:20
Speaker
Yeah, I was about to say Magneto and you know, and then, you know, with the Spider-Man movies, you do start to see kind of, you know, them creep in. And, you know, obviously now that's a huge thing. You've got like Thanos and Killmonger and all the great villains are like have these big motivations. But you really do get the sense that like, OK, he is trying to do something that he thinks is good for the world. And he just doesn't care. And like great technological advancement. He just doesn't care who he hurts or like what, you know, which is something like I feel like that's even more relevant now.
00:30:50
Speaker
you know, with, you know, all the billionaires in the world that are just like, yeah, you know what, like work an 80 hour weekend, you know, and I'll pay you minimum wage, but I can build this car of the future, you know, so I feel like that is very, very, you know, relevant right now to kind of everything that's going on. And, but yeah.
00:31:06
Speaker
Melina is just so good in this you can tell that he really likes Peter and Peter likes him and they're just kind of like on the opposite side because of this and because of you know and it was like you know the early 2000s they're like oh yeah well maybe it'll take over your brain who knows you know but I really dug the whole Doc Ock storyline as well as I will say also speaking of villains the whole Harry storyline that kind of runs through this and I think that something this movie does really really well
00:31:34
Speaker
And then something that obviously MCU would take note of is that it's its own movie. Spider-Man 2 is very much like its own thing. It's very self-contained. But it's also definitely also the second part of a trilogy. You have plot threads like the Harry thing, like the Mary Jane stuff.
00:31:52
Speaker
from a character level that carry over from the first one and lead directly into the third one, but you don't really feel like, okay, well, I just watched half a movie. When's the rest of it gonna happen? Like all the hairy stuff is so Shakespearean and interesting and it works really well. It's tied into this movie, you know, with him like, okay, him being like, okay, I'm funding Doc Ock. And then he's the one who gets, has to be like, okay, go kidnap him.
Harry Osborn's Emotional Arc
00:32:16
Speaker
It all works. It's all over the piece, you know?
00:32:18
Speaker
Yeah, that continuation part is a really good point because a lot of times, at this point in time especially, it didn't always feel like the second movie was really a continuation of the first. I mean, you'd have some references sprinkled in here and there, but the Batman movies are a really good example, right? Each one feels so different from the ones that came before. And like, you'll have references like, you know,
00:32:43
Speaker
Michael Keaton mentioned- Did he get a name drop? Yeah, she gets a name drop in Batman Returns. Chase Meridian references Catwoman in Batman Forever. She says, do I need skin-tight vinyl and a whip? In Batman and Robin, you see Two-Face and Riddler's costumes in Arkham Asylum, but that's it. It's all Easter eggs. It's all Easter eggs, yeah. And even in X-Men, we had, even though that was somewhat of a continuation, it was still very much pretty disconnected. The only things we really have is,
00:33:11
Speaker
Logan going to Alkali Lake at the very beginning, which is where we left him off at the first movie. And we get Magneto in the cell and we get Scott's reference to Liberty Island. And that's pretty much it. Otherwise, you could
00:33:26
Speaker
You could watch any of those movies in isolation without having to watch the first one and you would not be lost. I think if you try to watch Spider-Man 2 and you haven't seen Spider-Man, you can watch it. It is a complete movie, but I think there are some things that you'll think like, I really should watch the first one because I feel like I'm missing some context here.
00:33:48
Speaker
Yeah. And it's interesting because, you know, they, it starts with a recap of the first one in the opening credits, which is like, there's something that would like never do today. They're like, so if you didn't see the first three Thor's, I'm sorry. You know, there's just like so many movies, you know? Um, but it is interesting that they, at the time they felt like, okay, we need to kind of catch you up a little bit, even though it is a standalone thing. And the other thing I was thinking that like was interesting that they would have probably done today is that scene at the end with Harry, when he talks to his dad and you see him looking out of the green goblin stuff would have absolutely been a post credit scene today.
00:34:18
Speaker
had come out now. Yeah, I thought that was, you know, interesting to see kind of like, how it was setting, you know, the things for what would come later, but really how the genre has changed over the years. Yeah, that definitely, you're right, it does feel very much like a post credit scene now in retrospect. I want to talk about some of the things I didn't really like about this movie, because as much as I do love this movie, there's still some things that
00:34:42
Speaker
don't quite work for me. And the biggest one is still the Peter and Mary Jane side of it. Like that, Tobey Maguire and Kirsten Dunst, they just don't really seem to have a lot of chemistry together. And as much as I love Sam Raimi, I feel like he's not really good at that interpersonal dynamic. I mean, he's, and it shows in some of the dialogue. Like you compare it to
00:35:09
Speaker
what Mark Webb did in the amazing Spider-Man movies. And the best parts of those movies are the Peter and Gwen stuff, because Mark Webb is really good at relationship dynamics, like he did in, you know, 500 Days of Summer. But Sam Raimi, you know, the best parts are when he's getting into the sci-fi and the special effects aspects of it. And those are the best parts of this movie. When he gets into the interpersonal stuff with Peter and Mary Jane, it feels kind of hokey.
00:35:36
Speaker
Yeah, I can see what you're saying. I remember not loving the scene where she's running to Peter at the end like that. And I think part of it is, I think that a lot of the Spider-Man and Mary Janes that have come after them have had such chemistry.
00:35:52
Speaker
And it's interesting because I think all of the Spider-Man and Mary Jane's have dated. I think even Toby and Kirsten did date for like a little bit, but you have Tom and Zendaya and they're obviously still together in real life. You had Emma Stone dating Andrew Garfield. They were really kind of a power couple for a while. And I think they had so much more just chemistry as actors that it really paid off on screen. And not to say that Kirsten and...
00:36:21
Speaker
Toby aren't incredible actors, because they are. They're both great, especially Kirsten. I think she got some Academy Award consideration this year, rightly so. She's always been really good. But they just don't really have that same kind of zing between them that some of them do, although I will say that last scene where it's kind of like her being like, hey, this is my choice. We should be together. That scene hit me a lot. That's a good scene, yeah.
00:36:48
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I think that's the problem. That's such a problem with it is it's the script doesn't do them any favors, especially to Mary Jane, like the scripts in these movies are terrible treat Mary Jane terribly. Like, yeah, I remember watching these with with my wife a few years ago and and we had seen the amazing Spider-Man movies actually first.
00:37:07
Speaker
when watching them with her. And then she wanted to go back and she wanted to watch the original one. So we watched them. Afterwards, I asked her what she thought. And she's comparing obviously Mary Jane and Gwen from the Amazing Spider-Man movies. And first thing she said to me is like, why is Mary Jane such a bitch?
00:37:25
Speaker
Yeah, I think, you know, yeah, it doesn't do a lot of it. She kind of just is the damsel in distress at the end of every every single one. Yeah, so much so that she wasn't supposed to be in Spider-Man 3. And then she ended up being and she was so pissed and Sam Raimi had to go and personally apologize to her for that.
00:37:41
Speaker
Yeah, that's like, Spider-Man 3 is when I feel like I really started to feel it. Like, I was like, you've done this twice. Like, it's like, this one, it's like, okay, you know, it's happened before, but whatever. He also kidnapped his aunt accidentally, not even knowing who it was for a second. But it's, Spider-Man 3 is where it really started to, I think, wear on me. It's like, do these guys have any other note other than kidnapping his girlfriend?
00:38:01
Speaker
Yeah. This one, it didn't bug me so much. There was, it's weird because this one, there is some echoes from the first one, like the fire, the building fire and stuff like that. I was like, okay. But you were seeing it through another angle, I felt like, and this one's what did work. He is, he is like going and saving that kid in the fire as Peter Parker. It's not just some trap that the Green Goblin set.
00:38:24
Speaker
But yeah, just, you know, I really, the one other scene that I love between them is kind of when he does admit that he loves her and he's like holding the thing up because he's still like, oh yeah, I love you. But also, you know, and maybe it's because, you know, it is Sam Raimi writing a love scene in an action scene is why it works. And he's like, we're maybe about to die. But also, and this is something I think maybe people don't like about Mary Jane, but I think it's great is that Kirsten Dunst is such a good screamer.
00:38:51
Speaker
She has an iconic scream in these movies. She's got a set of lungs on her that are amazing. So I really dug all that. Yeah, that's a good point there. One of the things too is I feel... So the setup in both of this movie and The Amazing Spider-Man 2, I know I'm comparing these to a lot. And I know that even though objectively Spider-Man 2 is a better movie, there are still parts of Amazing Spider-Man 2 that I feel are worth pointing out. Because I think
00:39:19
Speaker
The weaknesses of this movie, they really improved on it, whereas they kind of dropped the ball and a lot of other stuff. And it's and it's really those because the beginning of both these movies starts off with Peter not being able to be with the woman he loves and in
00:39:37
Speaker
In Amazing Spider-Man 2, it makes sense why he's still trying to win her back, but he's still hesitant because of the whole aspect of, this is not my choice. I'm doing this out of obligation, right? I'm trying to stay away from her because of what George Stacy said to me before he died. And I'm trying to honor his last wishes. Yeah.
00:39:59
Speaker
that's a really good conflict for him to have. And that really makes a lot of sense. In this one, it feels so weird because it feels like Peter's just being a dick and just leading her on because he's the one, it's his choice. He told her, we can't be together. And boom, that's his choice. But then in this movie, he's like always trying to get back with her. Like he's, you know, the whole scene at the, when he goes to,
00:40:26
Speaker
a party honoring her new boyfriend. And he's trying to win her back by reciting poetry. And I'm just like, these two things do not connect together.
00:40:37
Speaker
Yeah, no, I hear you on that one, you know, he, it does feel like he is kind of a dick. And, you know, I think that, you know, the idea behind that is you do see him try and kind of like grow and realize like, okay, I, he starts, you know, I love that moment when he's like, I'm different now. And she's like, you are different. And because he, you know, he, the way he ends the first movie was like, he kind of has this realization, like, I can't really be with her. And this one is like,
00:41:00
Speaker
Maybe, maybe not, though. Maybe I can. Maybe I can just be selfish. Maybe I can just do things for me. And then he just, you know, obviously ends the movie with him being like, you know what? No, I got to be Spider-Man. I can't be selfish like this. You know, and she's the one that's why I really appreciate that. She's the one who's like, you know what? I get to make this decision. I get to decide if I'm going to put my life on the line. So that part at least worked for me.
00:41:24
Speaker
That part did, yeah. The ending works for me, although again, it's so bad to her character because John Jameson is the nicest guy in the fucking world, right? He's such a sweet guy. And even when they're planning the wedding and everything, and it seems like she's only with John to spite Peter. And just kind of, he's the backster, you know? If you've ever seen that movie, you know?
00:41:49
Speaker
And he, but he's such a, he's such a sweet guy. And like, even when they're planning the wedding and he says, are you gonna invite your friend, Peter Parker? And she's like, no, he's like, why not? He's even rooting for Peter. And then, and it's, and I liked comparing it to another movie that was worse in some ways, but handled this aspect of it better, Superman Returns, where again, you've got this situation where you've got this really nice guy who comes in and he's the foil for the hero.
00:42:16
Speaker
But in the end, you know, Lois makes the choice. She's like, I'm going to stay with with Richard. I'm not going to go back to back to Superman. And it makes so much sense. And whereas here, like it's.
00:42:28
Speaker
she leaves job at the fucking altar yeah that was rough that i remember when i first thought i was like why would like what just make her like leave before that like i know it's more dramatic to like be a runaway bride but like that that kind of pissed me off i mean it doesn't so much anymore but like i think that the when you have that of like okay she's with the main characters with somebody and then they should be with the art or like the leavengers is with somebody they should be with the main character
00:42:54
Speaker
you have two choices you either make him like the nice guy the backster carrie l weston liar liar or you make him just like an irredeemable jerk and it's like why are you with this person in the first place anyway um yeah you have to find a balance between those two you have to i can understand you know you don't want to make him a jerk but you still have to
Mary Jane's Romantic Dilemma
00:43:13
Speaker
You don't have to be such a bastard to the guy too. Yeah, it was, it was a little rough. That was like, you know, a little bit like, okay, like maybe like poor guy, you know, the other thing that's bad about him is that his dad is an asshole is about it. Yeah, I kept thinking, I was doing a, I was thinking about the, one of these episodes. Did you ever watch how I met your mother? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the episode when, when Ted meets with,
00:43:41
Speaker
the husband of the woman he was supposed to marry, Stella. And he's like trying to, and the guy's trying to apologize. Like, I stole her away from you. You know, she left you at the altar. And he says, he's like, I don't want her. Why would I want someone who left me at the altar? She lied to me. And then he starts questioning it too. And I feel like that when I'm rewatching this movie last night, I'm like, would I really want to be with someone who left her other husband right at the altar?
00:44:07
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting. Are you caught up on Stranger Things at all? No, no, I've seen the first season and I have not seen anything, Sid. So I have to, once the last one's out, I'm going to go and sit and binge watch it from beginning to end.
00:44:20
Speaker
All right, well, I won't spoil anything, but I will say, you know, like with, you know, the whole like Steve, it's, you know, Steve dynamic of him, like Jonathan kind of wanting to be with Nancy, but she's with Steve. And I feel like they, season one, it kind of grows into something very different. And you're like, he starts at that like kind of mean guy, but like, I think Steve becomes a much, you know, they realized that he was a really good actor and a much more interesting character and where they took that whole like love triangle in later seasons, I think is really, really interesting and kind of unexpected.
00:44:48
Speaker
and this one yeah this this was not exactly the best level triangle you know he's just kind of a generic nice guy john jameson who apparently like apparently they're still doing missions to the moon in 2004 in this universe which i thought was interesting you know like obviously that's a reference to the character in the comics but like i was like wait we stopped going in like the 70s you know that's i was like all right cool i guess you know nasa's a lot cooler in this version of uh
00:45:11
Speaker
But it was also weird because it seemed like this was the setup for Venom, like in the animated series where he brings the symbiote back from the moon. And then in the third movie, they do nothing with that.
00:45:24
Speaker
Yeah, it's just a rock. Although I will say that I'm glad that they kept Venom as an alien symbiote. It still came from space, because I was really worried they were going to do the thing with it. It's been developed in how the Phoenix Force in the X-Men movies was not some kind of space protector. It was just Jean Grey's dual personality. I was really worried they were going to do something like it with Venom. So I'm glad at least they stuck with it being an alien. Yeah, yeah.
00:45:51
Speaker
Well, we talked more about Spider-Man 3 not too long back. So if anyone wants to go back and listen to my thoughts about that, not as bad as I remember it, but it still definitely has issues with it. Yeah, it's a flawed movie, but I'm very flawed. But going back to this movie and
00:46:12
Speaker
The Harry and Peter dynamics is another thing that's done really well here. And I wasn't expecting Harry to find out at the end of the movie. And I thought that was a really big moment. I thought that was a really good progression. They did a really good job, again, comparing it to Amazing Spider-Man 2. They did a really good job weaving Harry into the story and into the villain story. Whereas in Amazing Spider-Man 2, it was just very much, we need Harry. So we are just gonna like nail him onto Electro, even though they don't fit at all.
00:46:40
Speaker
Yeah, no, like the Harry stuff is honestly Shakespearean, where it's like, he's his best friend, but he's like, okay, I know you work with Spider-Man, and like, that's kind of wearing on them, and it's set up so well in the first movie, you know, and then it continues here, and then finally, you get a payoff that, you know, may or may not work in the third movie, but I think it does, their whole dynamic, just like, and the stress you feel between them is built up so well over the course of these first two movies, and then,
00:47:08
Speaker
that scene, which follows the train scene, which is incredible. You have the best action scene in the movie, and then you have the best scene from a character standpoint directly following it where you have him and he's like, all right, I'm gonna stab you. And then just the look, Franco really sells it with that look of the ultimate betrayal. He's like, oh my gosh, it's been you this whole time. You've been lying to me and going behind my back. The person I loved and trusted the most, my brother, essentially is the guy I've been trying to,
00:47:38
Speaker
and how do I grapple with that and do I continue? It was getting me very emotional just when we're watching it now. I mean, I think James Franco, and you know, the guy's a piece of shit in real life, so you get that out of the way. But man, I think he definitely walks away with the acting honors from this trilogy, like consistently throughout all three movies, his performance is just perfect in all three of them.
00:48:04
Speaker
And I mean, it's even in Amazing Spider, even in, not Amazing, in Spider-Man 3 where he's got such a terrible script, a character arc to work with, he still sells it completely. Like I love that moment where Spider-Man swings in and then saves his life and he just looks at him and goes, this change is nothing. Like that's such a good, like he's so wrapped up in his hate. And then he like, afterwards he's like, all I have left is Spider-Man. That's all he has going for him.
00:48:33
Speaker
is this like hatred, this need for revenge in this movie, which doesn't even happen in this movie, but it still works so well. It's still integrated so well into like the plot of him hiring. He's like, all right, well, I'll give you this treat him if you go and get him. And that's the reason you have the whole train scene. And the reason he's going after Peter and Mary Jane ends up kidnapped is it's the catalyst for all of that is this antagonism he has for Spider-Man. It's really great.
00:49:01
Speaker
One other issue I had with this, though, is part of the whole idea of Peter giving up Spider-Man. I mean, it makes total sense for the character's story.
Villains and Responsibility Concerns
00:49:14
Speaker
I love what they do with it here, but I feel like the more I watch this, I do kind of get vibes of Batman Forever, where
00:49:23
Speaker
You know I mean you've got a super criminal running loose still, and you're like I'm going to give it up now, and I understand he doesn't have his power so I understand that part but it just feels like Peter just has like a bout of amnesia and forgets that there's a supervillain running around still.
00:49:39
Speaker
Yeah, that's a fair point. I wonder, because he doesn't know, he doesn't know, right, that he's building a machine again. He's just like, okay, he's robbing banks and stuff. Right, yeah. That sucks. But at least, yeah, he doesn't, he's not like, okay, well, there's some imminent threat. That does kind of lead into something that I do like about this, though, is it's not like, for most of the movie, it's not like, oh my gosh, like the world's in danger, or even New York's in danger. It's him just kind of like dealing with these interpersonal problems and smaller things.
00:50:05
Speaker
and you know it does kind of become like okay well we got to save new york at the end but it is most of it is just about him dealing with like the stuff in his life and these quote unquote smaller criminals even doc ock at the time seems like a smaller criminal um so i like that aspect a lot yeah i think it would have worked better if there was a bit more finality to that first fight with ock like you know maybe he he gets arrested or maybe he gets you know
00:50:32
Speaker
maybe it looks like he's dead or something, or like, you know, he gets knocked into the, he gets knocked off a building or something. And it seems like maybe he's dead, but he's, or gets caught in an explosion or something to make us think, to make Peter think, okay, well that problem solved. I think that would have worked a lot better, but, but as it stands, it just feels like there's this loose end hanging out there, kind of like in Batman forever, when you've got Riddler and Two-Face still out there and Bruce decides in the middle of it, yeah, I'm not going to be Batman anymore now.
00:51:00
Speaker
Yeah, no, that makes sense. You know, it's interesting because it's taken me like, like about how kind of differently like the super villains were treated in these earlier ones where it's like, okay, now this is just the villain for this movie. And, you know, it's super villains until like probably Spider-Man 3 didn't feel like something that regularly came in the world like this is the second
00:51:20
Speaker
guy that he's ever met that has superpowers you know and they're barely so he's got art like metal arms you know so i feel like it's kind of like grappling with like okay well what is this we don't really know at this point what a supervillain is and then obviously in three he's like where do these guys come from they come a little more commonplace and with the mcu they are recurring villains and people who are just like out in the world
00:51:39
Speaker
but with this one, it's just like, okay, here's the, you know, like with the Batman movies, they're like, okay, here's the villain or the two villains of this movie and they're gone. And then Batman is just doing whatever dealing with bank robbers between movies. And you do get that kind of sense here that like Spider-Man is just dealing with a lot of small time crime and he isn't really used to dealing with someone on this level and maybe just assumes that he was just kind of another bank robber or something. Yeah, that's actually,
00:52:01
Speaker
I wish more movies would do do that and have like these maybe minor villains appear in like these scenes where he's just stopping bank robberies and that kind of stuff because it would make it feel a little like these supervillains are more commonplace than they do feel in these movies because you're right. It feels like, you know, it's like, OK.
00:52:19
Speaker
you get a super villain pop up every two years or so. And then other than that, you know, he's just stopping bank robbers. And I would like, yeah, and that was, there was a little bit of a hint of that in Amazing Spider-Man 2 when they involved the Rhino. And I think if they had just had Paul Giamatti playing the Rhino at the beginning, I think it would have worked a lot better. Cause it would have been like, okay, here's just a random super villain who pops up, we're going to stop him. And then, but he's not going to be the main thread of the movie.
00:52:46
Speaker
Yeah and that's something I think that you know Homecoming did especially well and obviously Homecoming had been you know said in the world where Peter had already dealt with all these different characters in the video but it's just like okay like you know Keaton's Vulture starts out as a bank robber and he's got this crew and he's like here's a shocker then here's the second shocker and then here's this guy who comes like there's all and then you know Michael Mando is like the Scorpion and there's all these guys who are just kind of like they're always just super villains
00:53:11
Speaker
in this world you know and part of that is the advantage of being in a pre-established continuity but yeah it would be cool like you know if there was kind of just more guys around you had the feeling that like well spider-man's been you know in the two years between this and the last week he had he had dealt with you know chameleon or whatever it might be right yeah yeah uh i thought
00:53:30
Speaker
Age of Ultron did a good job of kind of making it feel that the Avengers were still doing stuff in that time when there wasn't an Avengers movie. And I would have liked to see a little bit, I think a lot of these movies would benefit if they had a little bit more of that. So it didn't just feel like these heroes only pop up whenever there's a random supervillain.
00:53:47
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, and that's that's yeah, because it's Avengers Ultron starts in media res, you kind of get that feeling, even though you're like, wait, didn't Tony Stark just like quit in the last time we saw him in the movie? It's like, doesn't matter. We're moving on. Yeah. He's back. There's there's so many threats in this world. He's got to put the arm back on. He's got to do these things. Thor's back, you know. So I do really like that aspect about Iron Man three is a really weird. That's another one we talked about not too long ago, but that was a really weird movie because of just how out of place it feels for that.
00:54:16
Speaker
That one, I always say it's a good Shane Black movie, it's a bad Iron Man movie. Exactly what my conclusion was with that. I do want to talk about Peter in this a little bit too because I think, so here's the thing with, and I think also this is kind of a weakness of Sam Raimi because Sam Raimi
00:54:35
Speaker
He's not really, Sam Raimi is good with campy humor. He's not so good with witty humor. He's not so good with sarcastic humor. And with Spider-Man, you really gotta be good with sarcastic humor. And I feel like, and Tobey Maguire, he can be a really funny guy. He's had a lot of roles where he's been really funny, but he doesn't really have that kind of like sarcastic edge to him, which is what I always associate with Spider-Man. So for me, it's always felt to me like he was always
00:55:04
Speaker
perfect as Peter Parker, like the scenes with him and Octavius in the beginning, and when he's geeking out over the science stuff, boom, perfect. All of that, I buy that. Or the scenes where he's running late, he's trying to justify why he's late all the time, he's always really awkward. All of that pitch perfect Peter Parker. When it comes to Spider-Man though, he just can't sell a joke to save his life.
00:55:27
Speaker
Yeah, that is one thing like in retrospect, like going back because like would never bother me when I was like, you know, like a kid and like a young teen watching this movie, but then being like, OK, you know, he was always quipping on like the 90s Spider-Man show or like the really, really underrated spectacular Spider-Man show. Oh, yeah.
00:55:45
Speaker
he was so good with the quips. And I think that they tried to overcorrect for that a little bit in the Amazing Spider-Man films. So the point where I feel like Andrew Garfield's Spider-Man is so quippy and just like, he's just mean. He's just like really kind of an asshole. So like everyone he meets is like shooting guys in like the crotch with his web. And I'm like, that's just like, come on, take it back a couple of notches, dude. Now see, I love those parts of the, that's why I love about the Amazing Spider movies. Cause I think,
00:56:14
Speaker
Andrew had the opposite problem where he's...
00:56:17
Speaker
He's such a funny guy, he's so charming. He's so good with the timing and the quips and he sells that so well, but he's too charming. So when you see him as Peter Parker, you can't buy him as this awkward nerd type because he just doesn't, it just seems like you're Andrew Garfield, man. Come on, everybody loves you. Yeah, it's like the honest trailer for that. It was like Peter Parker is just an attractive, cool, skateboarding, awesome loser.
00:56:47
Speaker
Well, that's what I said when we talked about those movies. I said that it feels like Peter in the first movie is a loner by choice. It doesn't feel like he's a loner because he's an outcast. Whereas, and I think this is what I love about Tom Holland is he managed to find a way to really kind of balance those two aspects. Like he's really funny as Spider-Man, he's got the quips down, but he's also still really awkward and nerdy as Peter Parker. He's found that perfect balance.
00:57:12
Speaker
Yeah, I think you are absolutely right about that. I think Holland is the best of all worlds. You know, he's like, you know, what I, what the reason I like Chris Bronzman as the best James Bond is he doesn't do anything better than any James Bond, but he has the quips. He's, he's good looking. He's cool. Um, but he's not necessarily the best in any single aspect, but he's got enough of everything. And I think that Holland also he's got the quips. He's got the athletics, you know, um, he's got all the kind of right aspects you want to have a really good Peter Parker. Yeah. Yeah.
00:57:42
Speaker
It's funny you mentioned Brosnan. I'd actually re-watched Goldeneye fairly recently and I'd come away thinking a lot of like
00:57:49
Speaker
I still love Sean Connery, but every time I watch a Brosnan movie, I'm like, man, he's so good. He really is. And, you know, obviously he's my James Bond, you know, I grew up, that was my Golden Eye was my first James Bond, but I saw him biased, but I do really think he's the best James Bond and super underrated in the role. He's just, I think he just got stuck with other than Golden Eye, and maybe Tomorrow Never Dies, not great films. Yeah, yeah, that was a big problem.
00:58:14
Speaker
You know what, I noticed something else was interesting in Spider-Man 2 is, is it just me or does it seem like after you've watched this movie that both Robbie and May know that Peter is Spider-Man?
00:58:26
Speaker
Yeah, I felt like definitely Robbie. Robbie gives him that look. It's a pretty intense look. He's like, I hear Spider-Man's there. Yeah. Like if Peter kind of gives him a look back, like, yeah, he was there. Like, what is it? What are you trying to blow up? Like, what's going on, dude? Like, I felt like he definitely has that vibe. Maybe I could see that too. But like Robbie, I was like, kind of like, did I miss remember a scene where like Robbie like is like, hey, like confronts him or something. But yeah, no.
00:58:56
Speaker
That was jumps out to me every time like, come on, you can't be do you can't be any less subtle about this if you try. And and but may like that scene when I think it's the last thing she's in actually when when they're at when she's getting her pouch ready to move and and Peter comes and she's given him the whole speech about you know what it's like to be a hero and it feels like you
Aunt May's Subtle Encouragement
00:59:19
Speaker
know
00:59:19
Speaker
Cause she's talking about the fact that, you know, you know, we don't see Spider-Man around so often. And it, it really feels like she's trying to tell him, I know you're Spider-Man, I know you're going through something, but look, we need you right now. Yeah. That's interesting. Cause I feel like you could, you could definitely read that scene that way. And it's just like, is she saying that because of this, or is it just like a thematic thing that like, Raimi's putting in and she knows Spider-Man. And so yeah, I think it's a lot less obvious than the Robbie thing, but you could definitely look at it through that light. It makes a lot of sense.
00:59:47
Speaker
also it was funny watching the bank scene because joe mccale is the is the banker joe mccale pre hair flux joe mccale i'm like oh shit and then also um if you're a fan of lost jin dango de kwon is in this movie he's like he's like i like two lines he's like the like random assistant who's like does the power level is what i was like i like had to double take it was like
01:00:07
Speaker
Is that Jim? I was really cool. Also, apparently, and I saw this in the credits and I was looking for him, but Phil Lamarr, and I saw it on IMDb, so maybe it was a mistake, but it credited Phil Lamarr as being one of the guys on the train, too. I don't actually know. Nobody sounds like. I don't know what he looks like. Yeah, he was. If you're in Smallville, he played the Martian Manhunter.
01:00:26
Speaker
Oh, OK, man. OK, it's been a minute, but I think I. Yeah, I think I know what you're talking about. Yeah. So I was I was trying to look for him on the train. I didn't see him. So I wonder if maybe it was just a mistake on IMDB or what, because that was another surprising, like, you know, fairly big name to have just in the as an extra on the train.
01:00:43
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting you catching like there's a lot of like people that are you kind of catch before they're big in this movie it's there's like four or five, you know, we mentioned a couple. What's it Zooey Deschanel sister is the person who wears pizza. Oh, that was really interesting. I can't remember her name. She's on bones.
01:01:01
Speaker
But and then you also have one of my favorite people, Cal Sparks, shows up in the elevator scene, you know, from famously from anybody who watched I Love the 80s or any of those BH1 shows.
Notable Cameos in Spider-Man 2
01:01:11
Speaker
He's the guy who's just like, oh, nice suit. You know, I recognize that guy and I'm trying to figure out I couldn't figure out where because I tried checking the credits and I couldn't maybe I passed them by. But
01:01:20
Speaker
But yeah, I was trying to figure out, I know this guy from somewhere and I couldn't play him. He's in all the VH1 stuff and the only other movie he's in that I would be able to tell you is he's Zoltan in Dude Where's My Car? She's one of the dumbest movies ever, but I love that movie. What else do I want to say? Oh, we got to talk about the train scene. I mean, Jesus Christ, that train scene is so amazing. One of the things I loved about
01:01:44
Speaker
Garfield Spider-Man is the way he moved, right? The movements were handled really well, like it felt very, very like the twist, the contortions and all that. I think part of the problem with a lot of the movements and the Raimi movies is Toby's wearing this muscle suit underneath and it feels kind of bulky in retrospect when you compare it to
01:02:05
Speaker
You know, when you compare to Garfield and, and the Holland Spider-Man, whereas there, because my, my image of Spider-Man is always he's, he's always, he's lanky. He's like, you know, he's very kind of, he's very kind of thin. He's very much, you know, like a, like a swimmer's type of build.
01:02:21
Speaker
overly buff. So I always feel like, you know, Maguire Spider-Man in retrospect, like I didn't think this at the time, obviously, but he feels a little bit too bulky sometimes in comparison. So, but seeing him in that train scene, like the movements are just boom on point.
01:02:38
Speaker
Yeah, no, that scene is so good. I think, especially, like there'll be that stuff where he'll just jump through the air and he'll just kind of just like squeeze through that bridge. It's such a cool shot. And, you know, there's this stuff like when he's fighting Doc Ock, like they're on the standing on the side of the train, you know? And that's another thing, like I was talking about before, you couldn't really do that stuff before the advent of CG. And it looks pretty, even now, look, it holds up, you know, pretty well.
01:03:04
Speaker
And I think that, you know, the environment like it works for on so many levels, because it's a really just interesting environment like that had not really been done before it's been parry to death now like there's always like a Spider-Man train thing. But it was really kind of a new thing. And it's, it has naturally a ticking clock like Spider-Man has to stop this train before it gets to this point.
01:03:24
Speaker
and you know Doc Ock is like okay well I'm gonna use the people on this train to kind of like he doesn't care about hurting people like that's not his deal but it's like if I can use this to get an edge up in this fight against spider-man I will so spot that's another level difficulty for spider-man and then you know obviously he he stops it and it's you see him you know the whole point of this movie is like him being spider-man he has to kind of sacrifice and be willing to hurt himself and that he's like
01:03:49
Speaker
in excruciating pain at the end there to like do this and you know it doesn't get him anything but he's doing this to help these people out and I honestly almost started tearing up when they start like carrying him and everybody's just like we're they're all gonna keep this secret they're all like oh it's just a kid he all just saved us and you know it's a scene that probably wouldn't work now because everyone has cell phones but even then they're like no we're not gonna we're not gonna tell anybody we're gonna keep this secret you know like in the first one he has I think maybe
01:04:18
Speaker
You know, Norman is the only person who finds out that he's Spider-Man, but in this, you have this whole train work. And they're all like, yeah. And then they all like we're like, we're going to defend you when they all just kind of like he's like, you have to go through me and me and everyone just kind of like stands in the way. I thought that was such a cool, powerful scene.
01:04:36
Speaker
And that's what the best action scenes I think do, is they're not just cool to look at, which obviously this was, but they reinforce the themes of the movie and kind of what the characters, even the villains are thinking and going through, and this did that in spades. Yeah. You know, I think the train scene with everybody's reaction, I think it would have worked better for me if
01:04:59
Speaker
Because all the movies up until I think The Amazing Spider-Man 2 was the first one that didn't have it. It had, it felt like they were obligated to include New York loves Spider-Man move. Right. Yeah. The part in the first one really kind of like, I was like, and this was the first one I get it came out like a year after 9-11. So they really felt like they had to put it in. It didn't bug me so much in this one because it wasn't like, Hey, we're all New Yorkers. Come on. Forget about it. But also like,
01:05:24
Speaker
But also in three, you've got the whole thing with the Spider-Man day and all that kind of stuff. And then in Amazing Spider-Man, you've got the whole thing with the crane operators. That was so dumb, the crane thing. I really did not like that. I will say that you're right. It works best here out of all those movies.
01:05:45
Speaker
And again, it's not a problem with this movie. If we're looking at this movie in isolation, it's fine. But when you're looking at it with all these movies together, it really feels like, oh, here's the time for the New York love Spider-Man moment. Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting to see which tropes this movie kind of like repeated from the first one in superhero movies in general that have faded away and which tropes that this one kind of inspired that like future, everything in the future, all the following MCU movies.
01:06:12
Speaker
would follow uh so and you know I think that this kind of like big clash at the end before and it's interesting because this is not you know the final scene like this is the most important scene but like he goes and meets doc again and has another action scene but this is the one everybody remembers for a lot of reasons well I mean speaking of that and speaking of like tropes you've established uh this is a trope that exists that continues to exist in the marvel movies where
01:06:37
Speaker
the best fight scene in the movie is not the climatic fight scene. It's the one that happens before the climatic fight scene. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's, it's, and that's, I think this is, you know, kind of, you know, for better or worse, definitely set that precedent of having this kind of like, you know, I guess end of the second act, beginning of the third act, kind of like big, big set piece that really is kind of the most memorable part.
01:06:59
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And God, just the way he moves in those scenes, like the one that always sticks out in my mind is when he swings back on the train, he spins around the pole, and then he lands on the pole. And that one is just the one that always jumps out to me, because that's just like perfect Spider-Man action right there.
01:07:19
Speaker
Yeah, and it's it's it's you know, because it's not using two dimensions. It's using like the train. Here's like they can see Spider-Man in the dock. Also can do it. They can like stand on any side and they can go through the different levels of the like they can stand on this side of the top or they can go into the train and then jump out a window.
01:07:35
Speaker
They do that all really, really, it's really well written or really well storyboarded, I guess, from like an action standpoint. And that's hard to do. That's like, you will see like in the fan, that's one thing that Fantastic Four movies got killed for is they've got all these interesting powers, but they never really do anything that cool with them. And this feels like it really understands the powers and the limits of the powers and how best to use them in an interesting fight. Yes. Yeah.
01:08:02
Speaker
Definitely. Especially just you mentioned when he swings through the bridge in that in that one scene. One thing that jumps out to me is at the beginning of the movie when he's swinging and he passes through the truck where he got the you've got the the cab and you've got the the carriage part and he just swings right between them. That was another one of those moments where it just it reminds me of you've played the video games, right? The PS4 ones. Yeah. Yeah. Like it reminds me of that when you
01:08:28
Speaker
Yeah, the one I played the most was this actually video game for this one. I love this. OK. Oh, yeah, this was a great game, too. But I love that where there are those moments in the when you're swinging around and you can like swing through like the construction cylinders and stuff like that. But it's it's freaking hard to do so. I remember I was kind of like, did you need to do that? Like I get he like it felt necessary when he went through like the little bridge. He's like, he's just flying through it. But I'm like, did you need to swing through that truck right there or just showing? I guess he's just showing just showing off.
01:08:58
Speaker
Something to about the, you know what I found myself missing about the costume in retrospect is, which I love that the MCU did this. Before the MCU I would have thought this was impossible but the best addition to the MCU costume was the eyes being able to move.
01:09:17
Speaker
And I find myself missing that so much because the mask is just so expressionless. And when I was a kid reading the comic post, I'd always be annoyed when I'd see the eyes move, be like, come on, they can't do that. And then when the movies were able to do it, I'm like, oh, I get why they do that in the comics now.
01:09:36
Speaker
Yeah, you know, because he does have that rigid thing. And, you know, that's I watched a video, I can't remember it was Vox or something about like how, you know, that's why they gave him the eyes move because in the comics, you can just kind of draw that in, you know, like, OK, like his eyes are moving and it's just kind of more abstract thing. But in the movies, it's a lot harder to do, like you mentioned, wouldn't have thought you would be able to do that before the MCU. And so that's why he's kind of like, especially in like these movies, he's taken his mask off so much that like it's burned.
01:10:01
Speaker
Uh, or, you know, whatever. And so you get to see, you know, an actual human like reacting to things instead of just like a blank kind of like face like that, or even like have it only get cut off or something. So talking about, talking about tropes that this movie established, that's, that's another one. The fact that the hero is always taking his mask off every 10 minutes.
01:10:19
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, it works for this one. I think it does lead really well into that moment where they're all on a train. They kind of, you know, set him down and you have him, you know, he takes it off to be like, hey, Otto, it's me, because he's trying to get him back. And then you have the culmination of that Mary Jane story. And you talked about, you know, how like Robbie and Aunt May kind of know who he is. And you
01:10:40
Speaker
definitely get some hints that Mary Jane does. And she even says it at the end, like I think I've always known, but,
Casting Perfection: JK Simmons
01:10:46
Speaker
you know. But also before that, when they're in the coffee shop, she wants him to kiss her. She's like, you know, she's like a lot of stuff. Exactly. Yeah, that's what I was about to say. Because yeah, she has, you know, because she, you know, at the end of the first one, she kind of like touches her lips after he kisses her. And then, you know, this one, she's like, okay, Kit, she kind of recreates the upside down Spider-Man kiss and doesn't get that kind of same feeling. And she's like, well,
01:11:07
Speaker
if I kiss Peter and it is that same feeling, then I know, you know? So I'm curious, you know, what would she have been like your Spider-Man if like they had kissed, you know? But she was definitely had her suspicions that were more like overtly mentioned in the movie. Yeah. And one other thing I really want to mention is JK Simmons is so good. He's like the, I don't think there's
01:11:30
Speaker
It's hard to think of a more perfect casting, because even though, like, as much as there are good actors in a lot of these other roles, they're not the only actor who can play them, right? Like, you know, I mean, as good as Christopher Reeve, as iconic as he was as Superman, we still got Tyler Oakland. And, you know, watching this, like, watching these movies every time, I'm just like, I don't think there's anyone else who could have played J. Jonah Jameson as well as J.K. Simmons.
01:11:56
Speaker
I, you're absolutely right. And I think that's why they never recast him. Like everyone else in all the Spider-Man movies is recast. They bring in, you know, new Aunt May's. They bring in, you know, there's new Uncle Ben in one of them. They bring in all the new villains, you know, obviously new, all these different iterations of Spider-Man have existed. But J.K. Simmons has always been J. Jonah Jameson in live action format. Right. And when they couldn't get him for Amazing Spider-Man 2, they just didn't put Jameson on screen. He was just communicating through,
01:12:26
Speaker
Peter through email and they're like okay well we need someone to play him in this new these new Spider-Man movies we're gonna get the same guy and even though it's a different universe and that was the first time they'd really done that where they're like okay it's gonna be the same actor in a role he played in old Spider-Man movies like you know what let's bring it in let's have it and it was pretty like that was a big revelation at the time it's pretty pretty kept on the wraps and yeah because I can't picture anyone else
01:12:47
Speaker
in this role you know and like even like Alfred like you have all these iconic character actors playing Alfred in the Batman movies you know there's there's a lot of great British actors out there who can do Alfred but I can't see anyone else doing they'll just like he's a menace you know yeah yeah so good well also too just like and I found myself missing this in um the in Far From Home and No Way Home is I miss the flat top because he
01:13:12
Speaker
It looks so good on him. It's so iconic. And it's funny, because he's talked about how he just gets recognized all the time walking down the street. That was before these movies. They're like, oh, you're Jonah Jameson. He's like, people don't recognize me from Juneau or things where I'm like, all these like, no, I don't have the flat top. I don't have the mustache. But people are still like, there he is. There's Jonah Jameson. But I just love his moments in this. He's always on the phone. And when Betty comes in, she's like, your wife lost her checkbook. Thanks for the good news.
01:13:41
Speaker
And he is, like, I think a really interesting character because he does have his weird set of morals, but then his sans body is his code. Like, I know it's not this movie, but in the first one, when the goblin, like, you know, strings up and he's like, who takes pictures of Spider-Man? If he won't sell it, Peter Parker. Right. He says he sent in his he sent in his stuff by mail. We never met him. Yeah, I thought that was a good part, too.
01:14:01
Speaker
he's a really really interesting character that you know is kind of you like even though he's such an asshole you really like him yeah yeah and i think um i'm not sure if you've read some of the the more recent comic books but i thought um
01:14:16
Speaker
I can't remember the name of the guy who wrote it, but there was a recent Peter Parker spectacular Spider-Man series where they did a lot with the Jonah Peter relationship that was so good. It was such a good exploration of their relationship because he found out Peter was Spider-Man and it was just, it was so well handled. Like, I think it was Jim's up if I'm not, if I'm remembering correctly, but it was so good. And if it's not Jim's up, I apologize to whoever did write it.
01:14:44
Speaker
Um, but yeah, that's pretty much everything I wanted to say about Spider
Superhero References in Spider-Man
01:14:48
Speaker
-Man 2. Is there anything else you wanted to know? I think, yeah, we touched on everything. Oh, I just wanted to say that I kind of alluded to the fact that they are, they do kind of the thing where they reference other superheroes, you know? Oh, right. Yeah, yeah. Not really. Um, but there's two instances of, I forgot, there's actually two examples of one, of course, being the like,
01:15:06
Speaker
where like, you know, Ted Raimi is like listing all the different names and he's like, Dr. Strange. And he's like, it's good, but it's taken. And you're like, okay, that's really funny. Especially since he went on to direct a Dr. Strange movie. Exactly, yeah. Which is so cool because, you know, even at the time they were like, you know, Kevin Feige and all those guys were like, oh, let's make some connective tissue here. The other one was also funny because Sam Raimi has said that his two favorite characters are Spider-Man and Dr. Strange.
01:15:32
Speaker
Well there you go, yeah perfect. But the other one which was a much more like direct trying to connect to another superhero movie is that the Punisher is in this movie. Oh really? Yeah technically not but like basically he is because that scene where Mary Jane is like running at the end and there's some guy in like a black trench coat that looks over his shoulder and looks at her, that was supposed to be Thomas Jane.
01:15:58
Speaker
because they wanted to like, be like, okay, this is happening in the same universe as the 2004 Punisher. But because Sony didn't have the rights of the Punisher, they could not officially make it the Punisher. So instead of Thomas Jane, they just got, and which is something they tried to get like Wolverine, the first one too, but like it's causing them to get lost, but they couldn't put Thomas Jane in it, but they could put Thomas Jane stunt double just wearing a black overcoat. So that's kind of basically supposed to be the Punisher right now. Oh, wow. I never even, I've seen this movie like, you know, probably two dozen times. I've never caught that.
01:16:27
Speaker
Yeah, it's one of those things you don't really notice it. But then when you know it's there, you're like, yeah, there is a guy just in a black trench coat who just like looks at Mary Jane who sort of looks like Thomas Jane. So I'm going to have to go and rewatch that scene after we finish recording. Yeah.
Raimi's Horror Influence in Spider-Man 2
01:16:40
Speaker
So I think in retrospect, this is.
01:16:44
Speaker
It's such a good movie. There are some, most of the problems I have that are pretty nitpicky. You know, I think the biggest issue is really the Peter Mary Jane stuff. Oh, also I love that Sam Raimi got an opportunity to kind of lean into his horror roots a little bit here with the hospital scene. That was so good. And also when he's climbing up and you just hear the kung kung kung. It's kind of like surprises, Harry, that's so good.
01:17:14
Speaker
And also, I love that he finally got to direct a superhero horror movie with a multiverse of madness now. Yeah, that one is way more Sam Raimi feeling. Exactly. Watching that, I felt like, OK, you know, Doctor Strange is the perfect character for Sam Raimi because you can really lean into the horror stuff, the campy humor.
01:17:32
Speaker
does work in a weird way for Doctor Strange where it doesn't work so much for Spider-Man. And it's just, it's perfect for him. I just hope the next one he gets to do it more of a straight Doctor Strange film instead of having to deal with all the other larger universe stuff. Yeah, yeah. That's what he does with it. Yeah, yeah. So do you have anything else you wanted to say about this movie?
Spider-Man 2 as a Superhero Blueprint
01:17:55
Speaker
I think that about does it other than, yeah, I think something I've kind of touched on before, but this really was not maybe the father, but the grandfather of modern superhero movies. It laid the blueprint and you can see everything that would come after just kind of in the DNA of this movie. Right, yeah, absolutely.
Derek's Podcast and Media Work
01:18:14
Speaker
Okay, Derek, why don't you tell people where they can find you?
01:18:17
Speaker
Yeah, so like we mentioned before, you can listen to my podcast underrated. However you're listening to this, we're on all the podcast apps, we're on YouTube. So if you have any underrated movies you wanna hear us talk about, we've covered a ton of them. Let us know, you can check us out on Instagram, at Undercast Company, on all the social media stuff, Undercast Company, that's the name me and my friends use for making our podcasts. You do that also, the Infinity Stones and Dragon Bones podcast if you want.
01:18:45
Speaker
to hear more MCU stuff. Check me out on Medium. I write Derek McDuff. Just look me up on Medium or check out some of my videos on WatchMojo.com. I do write for them sometimes too. Okay, great. Well, thanks so much for coming on. It was a lot of fun having you on. You're more than welcome to come back anytime you want.
01:19:02
Speaker
Yeah, thank you for having me. And again, I'm putting you on the spot. I'm coming on to talk about Alien 3 on your podcast. All right. All right. Sounds good, man. OK, that does it for this episode of Superhero Cinephiles. Superherocinephiles.com is the website, and we are SuperCinemapod on Twitter and Instagram. And don't forget our Patreon, patreon.com slash SuperCinemapod. If you sign up there,
01:19:22
Speaker
You get these episodes a week in advance and we're starting now to release movies where we talk about comic, special episodes where we talk about comic books and graphic novel reviews. Thanks so much for listening and we'll talk to you next time.
01:19:38
Speaker
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01:19:58
Speaker
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01:20:42
Speaker
Thank you for listening and as always good night. Good evening. God bless.