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Understanding PDA Through a Gospel Lens
234 Plays13 days ago
In this episode of Raising Autistic Disciples, Larah sits down with her friend Angie for an honest, VERY vulnerable, practical, and gospel-centered conversation about PDA, or Pathological Demand Avoidance.
Larah comes into this conversation the same way many parents do, with questions. What is PDA really? How does it show up in everyday life? How do you parent a child who experiences demands, correction, and ordinary expectations in a very different way? And how do you hold on to a gospel lens while learning new ways to understand your child?
Angie helps walk through the core traits often connected to a PDA profile, while also giving parents language, examples, and encouragement for the moments that can feel confusing, exhausting, or misunderstood. Together, they talk about nervous system survival, regulation, masking, parenting misconceptions, and why understanding how our kids are wired can help us better disciple them.
This episode is especially for the parent who has felt overwhelmed, behind, or unsure where to even begin. You are not failing by learning as you go. And learning your child more deeply is not moving away from discipleship. It is part of faithful stewardship.
In this episode:
- What PDA is and why many parents are still learning about it
- How PDA can affect everyday parenting moments
- Why demands, chores, and correction can feel so intense for some kids
- The difference between behavior that looks defiant and a nervous system in survival mode
- How to think about PDA through a gospel-centered lens
Links Mentioned:
How to know if your child is PDA @ At Peace Parents:
https://www.atpeaceparents.com/clarity
Extreme Demand Avoidance Questionaire:
https://share.google/d7zSPbSOdN8vfBpze
New ESA-8 questionnaire:
https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/resources/extreme-demand-avoidance-8-item-measure-eda-8/
PDA North America:
https://pdanorthamerica.org/
Recommended
Transcript
Exploration of Faith and Spiritual Influence
00:00:02
Speaker
what's going on on the inside. And I'm not saying that, you know, like, yes, the heart is deceptive above all else. Our hearts are not innately good.
00:00:15
Speaker
Um, so I'm not saying that they should follow their hearts at all times in that regard, but that especially, you know, my, my girls have all made a profession of faith. Like I believe that they are all, um,
00:00:27
Speaker
believe in Jesus with their whole hearts and they are involved with Holy Spirit. Like, e the sad thing about masking is it that that fear of Satan is a political.
00:00:38
Speaker
And I want the Holy Spirit to be at home in their hearts. Hmm.
Meet Angie: Neurodivergent Mom and Faithful Student
00:00:52
Speaker
hello friends and welcome back to another episode of raising autistic disciples podcast so glad you're here i have with me my friend and sister um angie and and it well okay let's let me preface something real quickly when i say sister i hope everybody means like sister in christ but angie let me just tell you out of ah out of every woman in the whole entire world i wish you were my sister like my blood i have a i have a little brother and so i'll trade him ah for you any day. But anyway, she is my sister in Christ. I am so excited that she's here. ah And so, so, so, so excited that she's here. Angie, tell the people listening a little bit about you and then ah I'll roll into kind of what we're discussing today.
00:01:33
Speaker
All right. So I'm Angie Klaus. I am a neurodivergent mom, which means that I have neurodivergence and my kids are neurodivergent. I personally have ADHD and PDA, which is I don't think that you knew about me, Lara. I didn't. Yeah, I would identify as PDA as its own neurotype, which is where kind of the level of research is going is that it's not just under the umbrella of autism, but can also present as its own neurotype.
00:02:10
Speaker
So, yeah, so I've been walking with the Lord most of my adult life. my favorite like My favorite place to be in the world is at my desk studying the word. like I have this secretary desk that reminds me of my grandma and if I can get in the flow and study the word there, like I will never leave.
00:02:29
Speaker
And if I do leave, I'm going to bring a ball of yarn and a crochet hook. Nice! Okay. Yeah, so that is and that is me a happy place right there.
00:02:41
Speaker
Yeah.
Family Dynamics and Autism
00:02:42
Speaker
So then, um yeah, I've been married to my husband, Matt, for 15 years. And we have three girls who are 13, 11, and eight, and two of whom are autistic.
00:02:55
Speaker
All right. Yeah, absolutely. So you kind of mentioned a little bit of what our topic is today. But also, Angie, here's the thing. You may be the first um the po the first podcast interview while also being my
00:03:12
Speaker
a girl mom. Because, yeah, so I don't know if I've talked to in recent podcasts or ones last year with, like so so you're not only bringing that to the table, you're bringing a lot of other things. So I appreciate that because I know a lot of my listeners are like, we love hearing about the boy stuff, but we got girl, you know, autism over here and things like that. And though, you know, a lot of things are similar, there's a lot of differences. And so I'm glad that you can bring that to the table for for us
What is Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA)?
00:03:40
Speaker
too. But okay, so jumping into today's kind of topic and conversation, Angie,
00:03:46
Speaker
we're going to be talking about PDA. ah Now, okay, let me just absolutely vulnerable. Let me preface moment all of the above. I know nothing about PDA other than it stands for, I may not even get this right, pathological demand avoidance.
00:04:06
Speaker
Yes? Yes. Nailed it. All right, good. So that is, that's practically the only thing I know. Now I have been prayerful in this last year of going, Lord, I know nothing about this. That's number one. Number two, I know that a lot of my friends on Instagram and, and ones that I meet at conferences have their children have PDA profiles. But sister, can I be completely honest in this last season, especially these last three years, you know, six years, seven years from the diagnosis, autism diagnosis of Graham, I could not, i could not handle one more thing.
00:04:43
Speaker
um Now, what we're going to talk about is there's no doubt in my mind that Graham has got some PDA going on. Right. there's a But i the reason why I think I have to say I know nothing about it is my own sense of like, I can't handle one more profile, one more... Think, can that count as a negative? Yes, because maybe maybe if I had jumped into it two or three years ago, it might be helpful to today, but that's just me. And so now I think I'm ready because I found someone who is safe to talk to about it, you.
00:05:16
Speaker
And that can really, you know you're a few steps ahead of me, parenting your girls.
Understanding PDA: Characteristics and Research
00:05:20
Speaker
But let me go ahead and tell you the absolute reason why I'm excited to learn from you is because you bring a gospel perspective to it. Mm-hmm.
00:05:30
Speaker
And I don't, I have to ah what I would remind my friends listening and what I hope that we all put at the top of our priority list when it comes to having a gospel lens on is is it always has to circle back to it.
00:05:46
Speaker
when we have these conversations. And so what you just mentioned about your happy place is the kind of people I want to talk to. Let my best conversations end and begin talking about the word. And so that, that's what I want. So sister, knowing that, you know, knowing that I am, I i have no, uh, I have no, um,
00:06:06
Speaker
credibility or I have no reason or no, I have, I'm bringing nothing to the table listeners. That's what I'm saying. Other than i have a few questions because i want I want to start learning so that again, what I've been talking about all along is if we learn how our kids learn best, we can then help them know and love God forever in the way that they learn best. And so if Graham does have a PDA profile and has, you know, distinctions and characteristics that align with that, I want to know about it. Right. And so, Angie, that's where we're going to start off. I don't Angie and I listeners talked a little bit about this episode, but really, i I'm kind of naming it. Teach me about PDA.
00:06:46
Speaker
And so, sister friend, you really have the whole episode ah to really just go, hey, Lara, if I was writing a letter to you, like letters to Lindsay. If I was writing a letter to you, here's what my letter would say about PDA. Is that a good starting point, Angie?
00:07:03
Speaker
I think, I think that's a great starting point. Um, and I'll tell you that my version of a preface is a long story long. So, um, that's probably what you're going to get today. love it. I love it. First, the first thing I want to say is that honestly, you're not too late.
00:07:23
Speaker
Um, you're never too late to come to PDA. And that is spoken from a girl autism mom, because um we're not looking at a diagnosis that happened six or seven years ago.
00:07:38
Speaker
oh I just rolled my eyes as I can't even believe I said that. um We're not looking at a diagnosis that happened six or seven years ago. We're looking at a diagnosis that happened eight months ago.
00:07:49
Speaker
Wow. Okay. um And It's just different. It's a different ballgame, especially for PVA girls, because the masking is so central to their presentation that they get that one-on-one time with an adult, at least my kids, and they are social and charismatic and vibrant. And nobody suspects that they have autism because they are hiding it all deep within themselves. So it's,
00:08:23
Speaker
it's been, a you're not too late. That's what I was going to say. You're not too late. It's never too late. Um, God, I'm sorry, go ahead. No, I was going to say God can do a new work at any time. That's right. Amen.
00:08:36
Speaker
Amen. Can we start? Can you tell me, of course, I, like I said, to yeah i know what it stands for. What is it? Okay. So we'll start with what PDA we, um, yeah. So PDA first thing, like,
00:08:53
Speaker
I would say when I was really, when we were starting to like go through like different diagnosis processes and dealing with a lot of the behaviors when my oldest was seven or eight,
00:09:07
Speaker
um like nobody talked about PDA. So you were right. The PDA is pathological demand avoidance. It can also be referred to as a pervasive drive for autonomy.
00:09:22
Speaker
And so having
00:09:26
Speaker
And some of that's because i think the actual autistic, actual PDA voices, you know, that demand avoidance kind of has a negative connotation to it.
00:09:37
Speaker
And so that's pervasive drive for autonomy, which I would say for the PDA individual autonomy, which means, um, freedom of choice, free will and, um, equality are huge tenants to the PDA or, um,
00:09:56
Speaker
So we spent a lot of time in our house making sure that things are equal or discussing why sometimes life is not fair and mom doesn't always do things perfectly equal. Right. Because that's a whole thing.
00:10:09
Speaker
um But yeah, so then when we started to come to PDA in terms of naming it ourselves, we came upon, um well, first I have, ah ah my best friend has her master's in social psychology. And we've been friends forever. And just through talking and living life together, she's like, Angie, do you have a little bit of pathological demand avoidance? You know, does does your oldest have some of that as well?
00:10:38
Speaker
And I really kind of started to ruminate on it and then started doing searching. And, you know, like you said, there aren't people out there talking about it from a biblical worldview at all.
00:10:52
Speaker
um I think there might be Christians that are talking about it, but not through a gospel lens. um so you kind of have to take all those resources and pray through them deeply. But we came to Casey, who is a PDA mom of two boys. um Her website's at peaceparents.com.
00:11:15
Speaker
And she also at that time was recommending using this extreme demand avoidance questionnaire. which is like a Vanderbilt for PDA, but it's not something you're going to go to a doctor for and have them say, okay, why don't you fill this out? And I'm going to diagnose because PDA isn't in the diagnostics, in the DSM.
00:11:40
Speaker
It's just not. And the reason, yeah right. Do you think it ever will be? um No, I think it's coming really, it's coming. It's absolutely coming. yeah um But the reason that it's not is because the DSM is a U.S. published manual.
00:11:56
Speaker
um And there aren't any research studies that have been published in the United States or there weren't at that time when that was published. So it can't be a standalone diagnosis because there's not the research to support it.
00:12:08
Speaker
sure But the first recent research study was published this fall. Okay. And that's over Casey's or it's about Casey's, what she calls her paradigm shift program. um And then she has said that there are four or five more research research studies that are in the wings working right now.
00:12:31
Speaker
So the day it it is coming. So right now, the best you might get um in an office, if you're, you know, at a psych evaluation or something is going to be autism level, whatever. and then parenthetically with pathological demand avoidance. Okay.
00:12:50
Speaker
So my second daughter that was just diagnosed in December, well, my second PDA, or um she, that's her diagnosis. So like that's the gold star. She has autism spectrum disorder, level one with pathological demand avoidance. So that was like a huge win for us. But eight months ago,
00:13:13
Speaker
it PDA was implied throughout the evaluation, but it was not ever explicitly stated. And we went to the same office. So that's the level that things are moving quicker.
00:13:25
Speaker
more quickly and emerging. So the, whi so the, the, when was being able to, so to have that, um, have that, uh, what's the word? Like, like distinguished.
00:13:40
Speaker
Yeah. Like, the okay. Explicitly parenthetical. but okay Okay. I don't know, whatever, yeah but I can take that to the school and I can start, then they're going to see that this is demand avoidant forward. They're going to,
00:13:55
Speaker
I'm going to be able to start advocating. It's going to give me advocacy
Parenting Strategies for Neurodivergent Children
00:13:58
Speaker
power. because Yeah. Yeah. So that's where, that's where we're at. But anyway, so, um, this EDAQ, we started there and I filled it out I had my sister, my husband and one other adult fill it out for my daughter.
00:14:15
Speaker
And it was just very obvious for me, like that there was themes and something going on. So then we listened to Casey's masterclass on PDA, which is called clarity.
00:14:27
Speaker
um Because she just, she has a way of just stating and educating and teaching people what it is and what to kind of where to begin with what to do about it.
00:14:42
Speaker
um And she's, commonly one of the, you know, the best parent resources out there right now. um But I would say that PDA has five characteristics. So I'm going to go through those five characteristics for you.
00:14:55
Speaker
And it'll be interesting to see how you maybe see Graham in those. um So the first one is a survival drive for autonomy, which basically means when um the PDA loses autonomy or choice, they will go into their survival brain. That's your fight, flight, freeze, spawn, or flop response, which in autism terms, I would like screaming, eloping, selective autism, masking, fainting, collapsing. Like we've all, you know, we've all been there. Um, and it can be like, this one's tricky because, and this is a theme throughout all of PDA is sometimes it's related to something that happened in the moment, but sometimes it's related to things that have been going on for days.
00:15:54
Speaker
Jeez Louise, my brain is exploding. Right. It, this is not easy. Yeah. None of it is. So, so if you don't mind, because I'm very, um, uh, like example driven just because I want to, I want to see how things connect. So this survival or the, okay. Tell me the first one again. Tell me the one we just went over.
00:16:15
Speaker
A survival drive for autonomy. So is this a, I had just to tell him no. I didn't give him a choice. I just had to tell him no.
00:16:25
Speaker
And he didn't have any, any. Okay. Also, can we take a timeout and just preface? Okay. We also, ah or Lara is also bringing in, and we all do this. We all have this. So let me just make sure that everybody understands. We're all bringing in.
00:16:43
Speaker
past how we were raised. We're all bringing in things we were told. We're all bringing in different interpretations of scripture. We're all bringing a So like what I'm about to say, Angie, I'm like, oh, mess. Like, okay. But like, like, it's like, ah you know, it's,
00:17:03
Speaker
and not ja more I know, I know. And I'm a millennial. And i I, you know, I teeter totter on this whole like, no, I'm the parent. I said it, you go with it. You know, and so when you have an autistic kid that that flies out the window, not the not the like, I want to keep him safe. I want to keep him loved. I want to teach him obedience, which we'll get to in ah in a moment. But like, but so my mind automatically pushes is like, okay, how does this even fit with like, when I have to tell him no, and he doesn't get a choice, I guess it's just where I'm like, Oh, okay, this is this, you know, yeah.
00:17:40
Speaker
You have to choose your nose wisely. Yeah, totally. You can't throw them out. I mean, that's, that's me, you know, but I think that you're right. It can be as simple as like just a no without a choice.
00:17:51
Speaker
Um, okay. So the second behavior, um, or second characteristic is really the one that's all about behaviors and that equalizing or leveling behaviors, depending on Casey calls it equalizing. i think in a lot of the British and UK resources or British and Australian resources, they use leveling.
00:18:18
Speaker
um So this is when there has been a loss of equality. So a sibling is getting attention. someone else has greater competency, like, you know, they're winning at a game or even just that they see inequality happen. That's not even personal.
00:18:39
Speaker
They will attempt to equalize or level it. And that can be a lot of like the consistent picking and maybe at the youngest kid or consistently trying to one up or,
00:18:55
Speaker
show their competent competency in something when somebody else has been having their moment, they have to kind of come in and have that side by side moment.
00:19:07
Speaker
h ah And that's, I think somewhat normal sibling rivalry, but I think with our kids, that's, it's a lot. um And ah we saw a lot of these behaviors, like, you know, you ask a kid to clean their room and instead they go in and destroy it Oh my gosh, this is making so much sense.
00:19:27
Speaker
Or say you have restrictive screen times. and ah And I pray that this has never happened to you and your child figures out how to hack all of the parent controls and change them.
00:19:40
Speaker
Wow. No, not yet. And just isn't sleeping for months at a time.
00:19:48
Speaker
Leveling. So leveling. Yeah. Yeah. And they will just, it and it's just this, they feel threatened, you know, if they feel like somebody is positioned ah above them, you know? So like for us, when we play family games, um this is one where the rule is he the game, when the game is done, it's just done.
00:20:13
Speaker
We don't talk about it. We don't make a big deal about winning. We don't make a big deal about losing. We just move on. Mm-hmm. Um, and one of like, this is one of the things that's kind of nice. Cause you can kind of feed into it a little bit. Like you can kind of, I don't know like if that's the right word, but like kind of. Play to advantage. Play to play, like play toward it. Yeah.
00:20:40
Speaker
Yeah. Like, yeah so like you can take preventative measures. That's the word. Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. Yeah. Like a lot of times I will. position myself in a way that is lower. Like literally if my child is sitting on the couch, I will sit on the floor and like it helps.
00:21:00
Speaker
It helps. And I don't know why it helps, but it is a weird, like a quality thing. And like just doing that consistently over time. Now, some people have also said they'll go as far as to like, if they're playing a game, letting a child win the game.
00:21:16
Speaker
Mm-hmm. But Angie doesn't work that way. I did not come in that letting somebody else. um That's funny.
00:21:27
Speaker
So, okay. So, and I may just throw out you examples and you tell me, no, that's another, that's another point in a few minutes. So it's like pulling teeth to get Graham to do chores. And this is also another, I got a question on Instagram yesterday about how do you help siblings understand why they have more chores than your autistic kid doesn't have as long as. So that's another whole thing. But like what I have noticed is when we do, we'll do it.
00:21:52
Speaker
I'm sure we'll talk about exhaustion too here in a couple of minutes, but like it gets exhaustive, like, like social stories for everything. And that, and I know like God has given me this kid to steward and raise and,
00:22:02
Speaker
I can't, I'm trying not to be hypocritical when I say, you know, we want to learn how he learns best. But like, so for instance, when we when we do what we think is everything right to give him the right tools visually and all that kind of stuff, but yet he will not ah do dishes. But when we Like when we're trying to teach him, okay, it's a part of being in a family.
00:22:24
Speaker
We, you know, we need you to, the trash is better. The trash he actually enjoys doing because he gets to plop it in the trash can. But let's say it's something he does, like he dishes or just ah like he'll, he'll, he'll say no. And then he'll pinch us.
00:22:41
Speaker
He'll do what? He'll pinch us. Like he'll just like pinch our arm or something like that. i be best That's our pinch. That's our pinch. He'll pinch us. So like, is that leveling or is that another?
00:22:56
Speaker
That is. That's absolutely. And like probably, probably a mix of that autonomy and leveling. The pinching itself is the leveling.
00:23:07
Speaker
Okay. For sure. And chores, it's kind of a funny animal and siblings also funny animal. um You have to have, you got to give the siblings the words yeah that they understand. Right. um And that's hard when you don't understand it yourself. Exactly.
00:23:25
Speaker
yeah So we've been there when we do it regularly. um One of the things that we often say is that S will do it when she is able.
00:23:39
Speaker
So we actually have kind of just a turn taking thing because I have one, one um of the, my, daughter M, she really likes doing chores and has a greater tolerance for them. Like it's just the, she enjoys it and S does not.
00:23:57
Speaker
So M is in the rotation with her sister C and it just goes back and forth between their names. But then underneath it says S will be asked when she is able.
00:24:08
Speaker
And so just takes the pressure off. That's great. um Yeah. And then I have a lot of friends who they literally, they do skills checks. Mm-hmm. Does it matter if Graham can dishes every single day or does it matter if Graham just knows how to do dishes? And so once month they just say, Graham, could you wash these five dishes?
00:24:33
Speaker
That's that. And see, that's what I'm talking about with with, again, we're bringing in traditional traditions of with the way we do that. but And that's listen, let me preface that to nothing's wrong about that. We're not going to go back and go, oh, that was horrible. How you know what what I'm bringing into parenting. It's just understand that we can learn how to pivot to.
00:24:53
Speaker
Right. As parent we can learn new parenting aspects as we learn our kids. So, OK, so let me let me ask you another question and then we'll move on because I am learning so much. OK, so we just got my daughter, ah teenage daughter on an app to where she can, you know, earn money, yada, yada. yada Um, and and it's funny that you say this, Angie, because on this app, I'm wondering if they most likely did research in parenting. They had to have, um, or, or like, uh, psychology with kids or whatever. It says chores up for grabs.
00:25:27
Speaker
Oh, yeah. We can assign chores to her like when she needs like when we need that. We we need you to do laundry every day. But like it's it has a section of like, OK, well, these these aren't on any set time. But if you want to go blow the leaves outside, this chores up for grabs for 10 bucks, you know, or something.
00:25:44
Speaker
So that that's kind of like if we could. if we could take that and be like, okay, well, Graham, um, you know, these chores are on the visual schedule up for grabs.
00:25:57
Speaker
Which one do you want? We're all a family. We've got to, you know, kind of thing. Because again, listen, everything's connected, right? i I don't, I'm, this is where, this is where talking about this whole thing gets really complicated, but we don't know what he's going to be like in 10 years. We, we just had an IEP meeting where they're saying, you know, he's not going to get a diploma. He'll get a certificate, blah blah, blah, blah. But still I want him to have skills that I know is appropriate for him. So I've got to start now. So that doesn't, Angie, I don't think I hear, i don't think I hear you saying we can't not do nothing.
00:26:29
Speaker
They've got to have something to help teach them to be sustainable in the best way ah in how God has created their brain to be wired. So we just have to understand as parents, how
Parenting with Humility and Individuality
00:26:42
Speaker
to navigate all this. Is that, am I on track there? Yeah.
00:26:45
Speaker
Okay. It's not saying that we don't prepare them anything to do. It's just saying in the, in how we do it, it's the method. Right. Well, and let me go back because I was thinking about the definition PDA and I kind of forgot to add this um back we were talking about that.
00:27:02
Speaker
So this will make sense here in a second. But so PDA is a nervous system disability. Okay. Just like autism is a developmental disability. You're looking at a neurodevelopmental disability.
00:27:21
Speaker
And so Ultimately, ah what I found is that my kid can't be, my kids can't be pushed too fast or too hard. Their nervous systems cannot sustain it until they're ready.
00:27:38
Speaker
Like so good. And that's just, it's, it's really being in like being in step with them and in step with the Lord and knowing,
00:27:51
Speaker
knowing kind of what they can handle. And that is going to change because you've said this over and over again, it's going to change your metric is going to change one day or another. it's right like That's right. And so it's not always going to be that same thing.
00:28:04
Speaker
And I think my other, you know, just thing that I've learned over and over again is that I don't have to parent in somebody's prescribed method of parenting. o I need to parent the Jesus way.
00:28:23
Speaker
That's right. Which parenting the Jesus way means laying my life down. That's right. He came not to be served, but to serve and to give his life.
00:28:35
Speaker
That's right. And so am I giving my life? for my child. That's right. And as they see me, and I think that that's been the case this year, like I made some hard decisions to put two of the girls into school to keep one home because it it was what she needed medically and mentally.
00:28:59
Speaker
And,
00:29:03
Speaker
and I grieve over that like every day not i am heartbroken because I love having my babies home. I love teaching. I love being seeing them on the front lines and learning the new things.
00:29:17
Speaker
um But I am seeing her thrive. yeah She sees that I have laid this down for her. We have made these sacrifices for her.
00:29:30
Speaker
And God is using it. Like none of it is being wasted. so Praise the Lord. Yeah. Praise the Lord. Oh gosh. So good. Hey, let me, let me mention something right here. And and I know I want to move on to to three, four and five, but something that along these lines of PDA autism and parenting that I'm learning through ah my time spent in the missions, like the global missions world. um I think it was a missiologist, Ralph winter. I think it was him that said this, but I'll, I'll make sure in the show notes. Um,
00:30:06
Speaker
But he was equipping missionaries in the field, you know, who work with unreached people groups. And he, back in, i'm I want to say, I'm going to get this totally wrong, but it was, you at least 50 years ago, this was mentioned by him.
00:30:19
Speaker
um So you ah the reason why I say that is because... what we just discovered talking to each other is we can't take what we, how we were parented or we can't take how we think out of, you know, past seasons and apply it to our, our, our parenting because he equipped missionaries and he told them this one thing. And it makes so much sense because we see it in, uh, in first or second Samuel, when, you know, David's about to go to war and he, and he's given Saul's armor and Saul's armor does not fit David. Hmm.
00:30:52
Speaker
tri So, so we can't put Saul's armor on ah the armor that we had or the, or what I'm trying to say as a visual example, how we think or what we were parented or what, how, in what time that we grew up in onto our kids, it's, it's so changing. The more, the more time we get to the finish line and live on this side of eternity, it, we've got to understand that some methods are not going to fit some, some pieces of, of parenting aren't going to fit on our neurodiverse kids.
00:31:25
Speaker
arts so Especially our neurotypical ways are not going to fit on them.
00:31:33
Speaker
Yeah, i' absolutely. And when you mentioned IEP and education, like one of our, no, I absolutely agree with that. And I'm like, this is where we've taken the idea of a biological normative graduation date off the table. Like,
00:31:49
Speaker
You know, that is a fairly neurotypical society way of doing things. We're like, we're going to get there when and how we want to, because it's important to her that she wants to earn that piece of paper someday. And by God's grace and for his glory, she will in her time.
00:32:07
Speaker
And that's kind of where we're, I don't know where we're at with that, but it is, it is a different armor. Like, I think we have to, take a step back from everything that we have known, everything we've been told and look to the word and look to God and say, Lord, how do you want me to, how do you want me to navigate this?
00:32:31
Speaker
And if we're really honoring God, we're doing that with each one of our children. We're not doing that with them as a whole, like they're individual image bearers that are going to need their individual information.
00:32:44
Speaker
discipleship. And that's, don't know, something I, um, but you did mention, so good we talked about, you know, number three, four and five and number three is the kicker. This is a kicker for parents and it's the need for constant assisted regulation.
00:33:06
Speaker
They need probably one of three things, either a safe nervous system, a screen, or flow in their hyper fixation,
00:33:20
Speaker
which this is confusing and it's demanding that they just need that person that can be there with them to co-regulate. And I remember this from being with when S was a baby, I look back and she would just need constant with her.
00:33:41
Speaker
this Like I couldn't, I don't remember her ever playing independently. i think the moments of peace I got were when I started to have more kids and she could play with the siblings.
Balancing Homeschooling and Screen Time
00:33:54
Speaker
But I remember nursing C and having, you know, I'm nursing and s is like right there by my side the whole time.
00:34:03
Speaker
And the only peace that I could get when she was little was with screens and lots and lots of screen time. Um, this is one that like,
00:34:20
Speaker
I, I would say that this is my weakness in terms of like, I don't know that I know like a whole lot of what God might have me do differently than maybe, you know, I mean, we,
00:34:35
Speaker
allow allow a lot of freedom and autonomy with screens, especially since the hacking incident. um But we also have very robust protection levels on top of everything.
00:34:47
Speaker
And in a way that like, I don't have to grab the phone and scroll on it. I like, I get notifications because it tracks every text message, every video, and it's screening for the things and the levels that I'm telling them to screen it for. And then I just...
00:35:03
Speaker
I try to let that be the place where I'm not saying no. And that is controversial. It is controversial. But guess what? It is also an individual family's decision too.
00:35:20
Speaker
You know?
00:35:26
Speaker
is. It is. And it's just something you have to break through. um And part of that's like, I need sanity. Like you were saying, you were talking at Christmas time about the Grinch.
00:35:38
Speaker
And yeah, if watching the Grinch 12 times this holiday season gives you 12 hours of yeah ability to not be there right then, then let it be.
00:35:51
Speaker
That's right. I've told people. I'm ah i'm publicly okay with screen time. yeah I really am. It's a tool. It's a tool for my kid to regulate and to help me have some sanity.
00:36:06
Speaker
Like you said, I'm going to put boundaries around it to make sure they're safe to make sure. And listen, he gets a lot of outside time, too. And so, um you know, ah but yeah, there' that's a whole that's a whole nother podcast there.
00:36:20
Speaker
Yeah. i yeah Okay. Need for constant ah assisted regulation. So for those listening that are like, oh my goodness, dots are connected when it comes to, i can never get time alone. Or this may be, that this may, is this, is this where like co-sleeping may, may fall into? is this where like, well, what, what is an example of this one?
00:36:46
Speaker
Um, yeah, I think that co sleeping could fall into this, I would say if I were to look at a conventional Christian stay at home mom practice to get time alone that I have never been able to achieve in my many, many years of parenting is having one hour of quiet time after lunch.
00:37:08
Speaker
Okay. Like where the children go to their room for one hour after lunch, and they are by themselves. quietly while I am able to quietly do something by myself.
00:37:21
Speaker
And I have tried, i tried for years to make this happen and felt like the worst parent because this was an absolutely unachievable goal for me once they stopped napping.
00:37:34
Speaker
yeah um And so,
00:37:39
Speaker
I mean, for me, it came down to, okay if I'm going to have my time in the word every morning before we do homeschool, because I started to realize that was necessary. I let my kids sit in front of the TV for an hour while I was studying the Bible because we needed to put things in the right place. right That's right. So it's some of that's letting go of expectations and and recognizing this is what's going to get it done.
00:38:07
Speaker
yeah, and It's great when they have a hyper fixation and they're willing to do that independently for an hour. That's a good point. Yeah. You know, um but it's hard to also then tell a PDA kid, okay, now you go draw for an hour.
00:38:25
Speaker
You go do this. Like you can't plan on that hyper fixation regulating. It just has to happen. And when it's happening, you need to recognize that it's happening and you need to run and go spend time by yourself. That's right.
00:38:40
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. That's when you go crochet right there. Yeah. Yep. Well, the beautiful thing about crochet is I can do it while I'm co-regulating my kids. I like to too, but I can't.
00:38:51
Speaker
Sewing takes me away. And so I can sit and crochet when I'm sitting with them or whatever. got oh Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. so number four. I'm going to keep moving here, yep um is that the effects of PDA are cumulative over time. Cumulative.
00:39:10
Speaker
So, and ultimately this is where we've talked about it in different ways. It's not straightforward because you're not looking at a single reaction to a single event.
00:39:21
Speaker
Usually the reaction is a tipping point of several events that have led up to it. Dominoes. Domino's trauma, Domino's trauma, Domino's. Yep. Yeah. Well, parents are traumatized because the Domino's. That's right. That's right. Yeah. um So it's just kind of watching. And this is one of those, like, you kind of have to know their tells, you have to know their tolerances. You have to just be.
00:39:47
Speaker
aware. So when, when my neurotypical friends asked me it's day three, why, why isn't he okay? Like it's been three days. This is, this is the cumulative coming out.
00:40:00
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Huh. Yep. Yep. And like, I think I saw this with trips when we were still traveling a fair amount, like, or going to grandparents' houses.
00:40:16
Speaker
We've come home like in and some of that leads into the last bit of high masking. They kind of play together. But so then they'll mask, mask, mask like everything's fine.
00:40:27
Speaker
And then something will happen. But because they've been masking all that time, there's this cumulative effect that's building up and then they just crash. So it's so win when I use the word aftermath, this is really what it is.
00:40:43
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. It's that like, why does it take my kid three to five days to recover from two days away from home?
00:40:54
Speaker
Gosh, geez Louise. Yes. Yes.
00:41:01
Speaker
So it's okay. let Let me see if I can say this back in my own words. Okay. So when I notice next time, ah okay, let me back up. Cumulative meaning.
00:41:16
Speaker
it i i In my neurotypical brain, it's not black and white, meaning I can't connect this event to this meltdown sometimes.
00:41:27
Speaker
it It could be the the ah decision to go down Franklin Avenue where the trampoline park is, not being able to stop at the trampoline park that particular day. The meltdown ensues because he can't have that choice to do that. But then two days later...
00:41:43
Speaker
we go to the trampoline park. He actually gets to go to a place he wants, but yet has a meltdown there. And I don't understand It is, is like, it's all like, so cumulative, like meaning like it's all connected, but you can't, you can't put the puzzle pieces in your neurotypical mind to make it make sense.
00:42:02
Speaker
Yep. Yeah. Well, and it just, and extracting it from them because oftentimes even my highly verbal kids can't,
00:42:12
Speaker
communicate the reasons why, because it's just so deep inside of them that like just makes them like tick. And i I find that in those meltdown moments, like I pray for my kids and I pray to the God who knows, and that's the way almost every every single time in that meltdown moment to help them like pray to the God who knows and knows my child who created my child in his image.
00:42:42
Speaker
And he knows what she needs right now till watkinson to settle, you know. And then am I going to meet that meltdown with grace and openness? You know, because, yeah, that trampoline park and wanting to go to the trampoline park might have kind of come as a demand.
00:43:05
Speaker
Like it might've taken over because he saw it that one day and then he might've been living in that. This is a good example of the survival drive for autonomy. It is.
00:43:16
Speaker
Where the demand takes over. Like you want it so badly and that they like, so they'll have reactions to things that they love and want and are usually regulating and they just can't access presence and joy in that moment because it's become a demand.
00:43:33
Speaker
Okay, we got to take a timeout for a second. Okay, this is Angie, Angie, Angie, Angie. Okay, I got to be very vulnerable right now.
00:43:45
Speaker
Oh my gosh, this is, this is, there's so much connection here. So here's what I have a problem God, I don't even mean a problem. I mean, like if people, if people could understand, and you know, the thought that's coming to my brain around why I'm having such a hard time right now is because the moments that my kid has been called violent, um,
00:44:13
Speaker
My five-year-old kid, my i mean, he's nine now, but a five-year-old kid being labeled violent, are you serious? But the times that he was labeled violent, I couldn't understand it.
00:44:27
Speaker
I could not understand. Why is he so, like, where other people would it was calling him violent, he was he was going through these things.
00:44:39
Speaker
Yeah. he was It was over tiny little things of just one thing set him off. or And I don't mean that. I don't mean that. is That's just my language. The tipping point.
00:44:51
Speaker
The tipping point. Yeah. And we couldn't understand why in the world would this, this little whatever, make such a, but now it's making all sense. But yet those looking inside call it violence.
00:45:05
Speaker
Yep. They call it oppositional defiance. Yeah. Cause that's what we got a diagnosis of, but it's, they just can't, they're trying to survive. They're in, they're in a different head space when they're in that survival brain. They're not, they're not fully there. They're not fully themselves.
Challenges of Masking in PDA Children
00:45:27
Speaker
n
00:45:30
Speaker
I think that the amazing thing and the thing that I've noticed, um, because we walked, you know, a hard road, um we have a an amazing church body that we are a part of, but there has been church trauma from my daughter's undiagnosed autism, from her undiagnosed PDA.
00:45:51
Speaker
And so she walked through those Sunday school years without knowing and accommodating and any of us having, well, like those early years, without us really being able to support her in the way that she needed to, you know? And i think,
00:46:09
Speaker
the thing that has helped us in the last eight months to rebuild trust. And now I have a 13 year old, highly verbal, highly conversational daughter. So this may be different for you.
00:46:20
Speaker
um But it is to take those things to her. Well, it's taken to the Lord to confess them, but to confess them to her. I see this now. I'm sorry. I didn't support you in this.
00:46:32
Speaker
no I'm sorry. That was hard for you. You know, and just being really, humble and curious it'd be interesting if i don't even know if graham could access like remembering about the trampoline park it'd be interesting to kind of like i don't know it or any of those moments like just to be with be be curious about his experience and his mind where he got there but i don't know how much able to
00:47:06
Speaker
that's where it gets so tricky, you know, and they're just trying to, these poor children, these poor image bearers are just trying to survive. Right, right. And you, and you mentioned talking about that. They're just trying to survive in the way that their mind is wired. Let me tell you an example. Let's see if we can kind of kind of dissect maybe what is happening. Cause again, dots are connecting with me when it comes to my son being autistic while also, i mean, I'm learning on this episode, what PDA is,
00:47:36
Speaker
is okay. So church, for instance, um, one of the Sundays listen, and I was, we had, this was at this point, this was fresh, maybe even six months after autism diagnosis, PDA wasn't even on my radar. I don't even know if I would have known what it was, but now it's all connecting. So this particular Sunday, I get the message that says you need to come get him while in church. You need to come get him. I was met by, ah and I quote, he's just not being compliant today.
00:48:02
Speaker
I didn't say anything back. I just kept walking to his room. Of course, it's room. He's all alone. It was just you know him and the one one volunteer who was precious and amazing. But I walked into a room that absolutely looked like World War III had happened.
00:48:14
Speaker
I'm talking Legos. I couldn't see carpet, Angie. I couldn't see carpet. I still a picture of it to remind me of that day. And all I remember is I walked in and I'm like, what? happen.
00:48:26
Speaker
Like what, what, what went from, you know, zero to one 80 in less than an lesson. I mean, at this point is less than 45 minutes of me being in the service. And, you know, sweet volunteer just tells me, well, he, he threw something. He threw one of the, the, uh, not Legos, but the, the, what's the, the brick logs, the log one, the,
00:48:48
Speaker
Lincoln logs. Lincoln logs. He threw a Lincoln log and he then he laughed and then he threw a lot other one and then he laughed. And then I was like, OK, we're going to have to pick those up. And then he and then you threw another one. This is when there wasn't many much language either. So he was trying to express himself, but he was also having fun. So this was a perfect storm. And then she was like, OK, well, when I said, OK, now we got to pick him up. He said no. And he would keep throwing them.
00:49:11
Speaker
And then by the time it just escalated on her. And by the time it was done, he went into an absolute tornado of a child and just destroyed the whole entire room.
00:49:24
Speaker
Well, and I, it does seem like a perfect storm because I'm seeing like, yes, he's in a survival brain, but then clearly this was not a safe nervous system.
00:49:36
Speaker
And these kids, they, are highly in tune with the regulation of the caregiver. m They may not be able to verbalize it. They may not be able to communicate it, articulate it, you name it, any of that stuff, but they are going to know if that person is stressed out and mad and irritated. it is like the...
00:50:06
Speaker
It has been the most growing experience in my life having PDH kids. Yeah. And that's what it was. She was like, I just let him keep doing it. I just let him keep doing it because one, it got away from her. Two, she didn't know how to comment. She didn't have the tools to understand how to calm him down. Three, a little bit, which is everybody here learning is a little bit of like, when I say something, the kids should do it.
00:50:29
Speaker
And that just not, and and when we're still learning how to give him the right tools and and think it's just not, it's not gonna happen. So anyway, that that's just a second. but But you mentioned number five is masking.
00:50:43
Speaker
So for purposes of me understanding, because I know what autism masking is, is it different? ah Like PD, are we talking about two different masking types when it comes to PDA or is it kind of the same? How how would you describe or distinguish that?
00:51:01
Speaker
So how would you just, so when you say, i know autism masking, give me what your understanding of autism masking is. and aunt take Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Autism masking would be, um, especially on the high functioning side, what I've heard, cause I don't think Graham, I don't think he's, he's level two. i don't, we've not seen him mask at all. Cause he's, he honestly has the personality to like, you could, you know, if you like me, you like me, if you don't, I don't care. type of thing. So he's, he's very much like a, well, whatever it's your loss type of thing. Um, and so from what I've heard from high functioning kids, uh, parents, when it comes to masking, it's just, I'm trying to, to fit in. I'm trying to mask my differences so that they will play with me or that I'm, I'm fit in. So masking to, in order to, um, be like everybody else.
00:51:57
Speaker
Yeah. I think that that's, it I think it's pretty similar. i think masking is fairly masking. It is putting on something that is not genuine ah to yeah, like fit in to be like the other kids. um So some of that is modeling other kids as behaviors, you know, taking what happens there. Some of that is just being, you know, my youngest and her, one of her,
00:52:24
Speaker
um deepest, deepest, deepest like desires is to be a good student or to be a good patient. And so, you know, she will be the best patient when it comes time to get her, you know, to get a shot or something. And then absolutely, like she got her tonsils out. She got an IV when she did that.
00:52:46
Speaker
Absolutely awesome. The lady leaves the room and she like totally crashes out because it was not okay. And I'm like, honey, you gotta, you gotta tell me, you know, like I can support you if I know, but if I don't know, I don't know.
00:53:01
Speaker
Um, I think the important thing to know about masking is, and I'll say it, I guess my little caveats of things is that to me, it's a form of deception.
Confession and Growth in Parenting
00:53:14
Speaker
Hmm. And so especially with our high masking, high, um you know, high functioning level one kiddos, I, i think that it's dangerous.
00:53:28
Speaker
m And i definitely have talked with my, you know, my oldest has been a process of taking off those ways that she has deeply masked.
00:53:41
Speaker
and building her up to be confident in her autistic identity in the ways that the Lord has made her to reflect his glory. um But when they're in that place, they're never regulated. It it is absolutely does not equal regulation. This is a different way of surviving because I would i would equal it to like a fawning kind of response.
00:54:05
Speaker
you know, a right here yeah. Yeah. And, and the thing is, is we can learn a lot from this just as adults, because a lot of these things, especially fawning, I had a season of it, I had a season of it and I had to repent, repent of it. Yep.
00:54:25
Speaker
Yeah. So, okay. Just see some people, they know fight or flight response. They maybe fawning is new. Can you define that really quick? So that's when they'll go to school, you know, say to me, this is the classic, they're a perfect angel at school, which is what this, this might be a girl autism nuance. Like that they're, you know, they're highly compliant. They're engaging. They're, you know, so such a delight. And you're like, wait, what? Like she doesn't ever stop talking. She interrupts. She can't, um,
00:55:04
Speaker
catch any social cues? Like, how are you even? um So that's kind of fawning, like that they'll just people please, like they figure out what people want and they respond accordingly, but in a way that is not true to what's going on on the inside.
00:55:23
Speaker
And I'm not saying that, you know, like, yes, the heart is deceptive above all else. Our hearts are not innately good. hmm. Um, so I'm not saying that they should follow their hearts at all times in that regard, but that especially, you know, my, my girls have all made a profession of faith. Like I believe that they are all, um, believe in Jesus with their whole hearts and they are in Holy spirit. Like the sad thing about masking is it that that pure state in the fourth world.
00:55:56
Speaker
And I want the Holy spirit to be at home in their hearts. When I look back at pictures of my kids when they were younger, um it's really hard for me because I can see the mask and I can see their eyes and they don't match.
00:56:14
Speaker
And that's really,
00:56:18
Speaker
it's hard as a parent to see it.
00:56:22
Speaker
And I didn't realize what we were living in. And, you know like I said, my oldest is 13. we've had a lot of conversations this year where it's been, I'm sorry, I didn't see it. I'm sorry. i didn't notice it. I'm sorry if you thought you weren't enough because you are.
00:56:42
Speaker
oh yeah And I think that this gets to where, you know, if you were to ask me the one thing and I would say I have the, it really comes down to two things as parents.
00:56:57
Speaker
with PDA and that's really to know God and to know our children. And ultimately that comes down to everybody's parenting, but how that plays into PDA parenting hu is that as i know God, as I am in his word,
00:57:24
Speaker
I'm able to open my mind. I'm able to see the way that Jesus walked. I'm able to see his grace, his forgiveness. I'm able to see how, when the people didn't have any food, fed them.
00:57:41
Speaker
I'm able to see how, when their feet were dirty, he washed them. I'm able to see when he was attacked. He asked questions. He didn't make demands and I'm able to know that if he came to serve, like I can do dishes, a grown woman who can choose to do the dishes for my family and not put that expectation on everybody else.
00:58:08
Speaker
And there's nothing wrong with that. So, um, because my goal isn't that they're going to be able to do dishes in heaven.
00:58:21
Speaker
My goal is that that they're going to be able to be there if and that they're going to
00:58:28
Speaker
able to walk with Jesus, you know, with an unveiled face, but we can, but they can do that you know, and seeing that come alive in my daughter this year has been the most precious gift that I've ever, ever received in my life.
00:58:47
Speaker
Um, um And I think that that's taken a lot of knowing her we don't and being curious about what her lived experience is, being curious about what she needs in the moment. why Why is she saying no?
00:59:06
Speaker
It's respecting her no when she gives it, letting her have the freedom to let her yes be yes and her no be no who and doing everything that I can to be at peace with her.
00:59:19
Speaker
to not exasperate her, you know, because I know her heart because I have her heart who and I want to lead her heart, her unmasked, her vulnerable heart to Jesus.
00:59:32
Speaker
And that's, and that's why I think that the masking is so hard, you know, it's like, and it's, it's not easy. It's not easy to figure out how to take that down and to,
00:59:48
Speaker
let them be free. It's uncomfortable at times. It's inconvenient. You know, do I have one-on-one conversations with adults at church often? No, I do not because she is right there with me wanting to converse with the adults.
01:00:03
Speaker
But have I had lovely conversations about the sermon with my daughter because she's sitting on her phone playing solitaire while the pastor is preaching for an hour Yes. Like, he yes. And, and I thank God for those moments.
01:00:21
Speaker
And know that
01:00:27
Speaker
I wouldn't trade it for anything. That's right. Amen. Praise of the Lord, sister. Praise the Lord. Let me ask you this, just because I have two questions in mind, because I know I've been asked this first one.
01:00:40
Speaker
And um ah' it's just part of, it's part one, it's part of living on the side of eternity with other people who don't have the knowledge or research that we've spent years doing. And so when, when someone would, if if someone, or if someone has asked you this question, how do you respond with a gospel perspective? And that question is, you shouldn't have to walk on pins and needles around your kid who's about to blow up.
01:01:11
Speaker
How would you respond to that?
01:01:18
Speaker
You know, it's hard. That's a hard question. um And if I'm, if I'm completely honest, because this was another thing that the Lord laid on my heart in this conversation um is that
01:01:35
Speaker
sometimes the other person asking that question is my husband. Oh, because we're wired so differently.
01:01:48
Speaker
You know, our personalities are different, but i that I don't think it's just even our personalities. I think that God has made him as a man differently, like his need and his drive for respect is different. He he receives love through respect.
01:02:06
Speaker
And how much of what we've talked about with PDA and like you get into low demand parenting and how much of it different.
01:02:17
Speaker
that respect piece gets lost in there, you know, and it's hard. It's hard for him to feel loved, to feel respected by our kids. And so he does feel often like he's walking on eggshells around them, pens and needles. And
01:02:36
Speaker
I can say that a lot of times I do not have a gospel centered response. We've had talks about it, um but it's not,
01:02:53
Speaker
It's not that they're
01:02:59
Speaker
they're not doing it on purpose. They're not trying to be controlling on purpose. Their brain, their nervous system is wired differently. m And it's not personal.
01:03:11
Speaker
m How do you not take it personal, though? You just have to stop. yeah You have to struggle there. I mean, this is where I'm like... Is this where you insert preaching the gospel to yourself?
01:03:24
Speaker
This is where you insert preaching the gospel yourself. And I probably need to preach the gospel to myself this morning because last night i was taking it personal like with my kiddos. You know, it was hard.
01:03:35
Speaker
And my whole countenance was just frustrated and irritated. And I had a mom crash out. And, you know, I woke up this morning and in a gospel lens and i looked at my daughter and I was like,
01:03:48
Speaker
That wasn't about you. That was about me. i'm sorry. m she'll, I forgive you, mommy. you know? So it's just,
01:04:02
Speaker
I think there's humility. That's right. That's really, yeah. I have a lot of logs in my own eyes. That's really it. Yep. That's it. I think humility is probably the answer to a lot of our questions, the gospel and then humility. Well, it's gospel humility. If we want to tag it on both, you know?
01:04:21
Speaker
Yeah. So think that go ahead it's very possible that I prayed a prayer in my twenties asking God for humility. And then he made me a special needs mom. So, Oh,
01:04:32
Speaker
Here we are. Here we are. Here we are. Absolutely. He, you know, it's, it's one of those things where I'm glad he doesn't give me what sometimes what I asked for, but then other times he gives me what I asked for, you know? Yeah.
01:04:50
Speaker
So, And I would say, Lyra, I'm not the same woman that I was, and I praise God for it every day. That's right. That's right. I say it all the time. Absolutely.
01:05:02
Speaker
And i i I do praise the Lord because sanctification, becoming more and more like Jesus, I would still be i would still be uncovering things. he The Holy Spirit would be would would absolutely be still working in my life, but it's almost like hyperspeed.
01:05:16
Speaker
You know, like, like, like I have seen things in myself and my sin nature and things be uncovered way more quickly navigating a child, raising a child, ah an autistic kid than I would have, you know, had we not. But okay, sister, just for sake of time, let me ask you the last and the question I think probably is on everybody's mind that they want to know from you. Because especially, especially going back to if you were writing a letter again,
01:05:46
Speaker
and you were wanting to dispel any myths or common things that would be on another sister or or brother's mind when it comes to PDA and the raising of our children.
01:05:59
Speaker
ah For those who's looking inside this window of this life, our, listen, it's just, yeah, the whole bad parenting thing.
01:06:13
Speaker
what what would you say to the parent who's like, I'm just being accused of not being a good parent and that's why my kid, this is a discipline issue. This is a, you know, you should have done this and you aren't you're not doing this. what what's What's your go-to response?
Trusting God in Parenting and Embracing Imperfections
01:06:36
Speaker
My go-to response
01:06:40
Speaker
at this point is I think There's a lot of our history and our story where my response was to try harder. But I don't have to convince anybody that I'm a good mother.
01:06:53
Speaker
It is between me and the Lord. is between my husband and myself and the Lord. oh And I have tried everything.
01:07:09
Speaker
And I've done it well.
01:07:13
Speaker
And this is what works.
01:07:19
Speaker
This has been what's working. And that's honestly throwing all the books and all systems. and seeking the Lord in prayer. And doing what he tells me to do.
01:07:33
Speaker
Over and over again.
01:07:39
Speaker
that's a wheel. That's a wheel. And that's the obedience I want them to to teach my children! Yes. Hmm. yes
01:07:50
Speaker
yes if I get overcome. Sorry. I'm emotional. Absolutely. time i I love it. i love it. i love it. Well, sister, if you could, this has been such a, this has been like a master class for me to, to understand more how my kid navigates the world around him. And, uh, that those five,
01:08:14
Speaker
what What are they called? Five characteristics of PDA characteristics of PDA has been so helpful to be able to understand. I mean, it's connecting dots is what it is. yeah And so in these last few moments for the mom, dad, caregiver, church leader listening, what's your encouragement? I mean you've already given so many, but what's your, as you wrap it up, put a bow on it. what's What's your encouragement as we end this episode?
01:08:41
Speaker
I think that, um,
01:08:44
Speaker
The encouragement is that as Christ followers, we're a family. And in a family, you make mistakes.
01:08:57
Speaker
We're not perfect. We see like good and the bad and the ugly in one another. But
01:09:09
Speaker
sticking with one another in love and helping one another work out our salvation bitter trembling. mean, that's, that's what I come back to. That's the Jesus way.
01:09:22
Speaker
Is that a song that's been out lately? okay That's what I keep thinking about. That's the Jesus way. Like that's Christian way. like Just make me more like Jesus. Make us more like Jesus.
01:09:35
Speaker
And we're all working that out. That's right. That's right. And my mom used to remind me all the time is, is do I know him better than I knew him yesterday? Mm-hmm. And if I know him better than I knew him yesterday, I'm just trying to be like him more than I'm. What I learned yesterday, I want to bring in into today. Right.
01:09:51
Speaker
love that. So, yeah. So, well, praise the Lord, sister. Thank you for modeling and pouring into those a few steps behind you. And thank you for your gospel perspective and all things.
01:10:06
Speaker
And I'm linking arms with you, sister. I'm grateful for you. And so, listen, I'll put in the show notes for those listening, just some some of the helpful resources that Angie mentioned ah for PDA. And let's keep learning how our kids learn best for the sake of the gospel. That's the key here. And so ah grateful for you, Angie. Thank you so much for being here. This is an episode on PDA from Raising Autistic Disciples. Everyone have a great day.