Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Spider-Man Clone Saga: Web of Death
48 Plays2 years ago
Corinne and Derek take a look at the Web of Death storyline from Spider-Man's Clone Saga!
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Comically Pedantic, where we take a detailed look at the complicated concepts, characters, and history of comic book culture. I'm your host, Eric L. Chase, and joining me again on this episode is the wonderful Corinne Levy. It's a me. A Levy. Woo!
Weekly Highlights and Thanksgiving Talk
00:00:30
Speaker
All right, before we get too far into it, I got to ask what your bright spot is for this week. Oh, I didn't beat you to it this time. No. I really rapid fired it in the last episode.
00:00:43
Speaker
It was a surprise. I know. I like to keep you on your toes. That's why I stay here. I am the element of surprise.
00:00:55
Speaker
I had a bright spot. I've been eating copious amounts of pie because though this episode will not be released at the time, it's turkey day time. Whatever holiday you want to call it for this lady is the day I eat a lot of birds and eat a lot of pie. It's fun. I've been doing that.
00:01:19
Speaker
It's fun you're bringing this up because I actually painstakingly removed references to Halloween in one of our previous episodes. Oh no! Now you're giving it all away. It's okay. I don't care. Hee hee hee hee hee. I can, okay, bright spot number two.
00:01:37
Speaker
Honestly, I think it's all going to be turkey related because I got to hang out with my family. I can't say that my bright spot is like what I read every week because I've been doing that a lot.
00:01:50
Speaker
I've been so tired, so I just take what I can get. No, I think, yeah, we'll keep that turkey stuff in there. I'll spoil it for everybody. I really like
Raisin Rant and Childhood TV Shows
00:02:02
Speaker
pie. I'm a pie enthusiast. I made an apple pie at the crack of dawn one day, and then I got a free blueberry pie from work one day, and I'm about to make a pecan pie because I'm absolutely crazy. I love pecan pie.
00:02:19
Speaker
Oh, it's my lads favorite pie, so I have to bake it for him. Really? That's interesting. Well, he doesn't have much of a sweet tooth. Me either. Well, god damn it.
00:02:34
Speaker
I tend to be really into like I like almonds and things like like of that nature like those are my favorite like sort of snacky things um and uh I go trail mix yeah I Austin thinks I'm insane because I like raisins
00:02:52
Speaker
Oh, I hate raisins. I hate raisins. Okay. Here's my bright spot is every time I get to talk about how I hate raisins. Raisins are the worst. They're boring, they're basic, and they're weird. I would take any dried fruit over a raisin. Give me a dried cranberry. A craisin, as you may call it. Give me a banana chip. I'll take some dried blueberries. I don't care. Dried cherries. Love it.
00:03:20
Speaker
But if you gave me a fucking raisin, I will be furious. The Grapes of Wrath, they don't know me yet. Oh boy, I don't like raisins. I'm not a fan.
00:03:39
Speaker
So my bright spot, my bright spot is the box of raisins that I just bought you for your. Oh, well you can fuck right off. That's like, I would rather take coal from Santa than if Santa gave me raisins. If I got coal, I'd be like, oh no, I guess I had a bad year. If I got raisins, I would be like, who hurt you?
00:04:05
Speaker
Because I didn't. Someone else did. You're taking this shit out on me.
00:04:11
Speaker
You have very strong feelings about your fruit. I hate raisins. They're so boring. They're either too wet or they're too dry. They don't know what to be. And most of the other fruits, they're just go by dried and what it is. Dried cherry, dried banana chip. If you got to add a chip at the end of it, a dried blueberry. But for some reason raisins had to go like a totally different way. Instead of just being like a dried grape, you had to say a raisin.
00:04:41
Speaker
and it's stupid it's pretentious and it's rude and offensive and it hurts my feelings well on that note i will say uh my okay my actual bright spot uh okay i
00:04:58
Speaker
It's actually a little bit more difficult for me because really outside of going to work every day, I have largely just been reading and watching the Power Rangers, which is fun. It's enjoyable. It's very much, I feel like it's lost a lot of the emotional weight it used to have.
00:05:21
Speaker
like stuff that was new power rangers. Yeah, no, I'm watching one that came out just this past year. Oh, okay. I it's fun and cute. And I love I love kids stuff. You know, I love kitty things. Yeah, I mean, we talked about it, like won't go from like,
00:05:41
Speaker
Edgy, dark, sad, everything is wild. Sometimes I like to watch ahead. Yeah. I'm enjoying this show. I think it's a lot of fun. But I'm noticing a lot of differences where I felt like a lot of stuff, there was room for you to feel sad about a thing in the Power Rangers I grew up watching.
00:06:04
Speaker
And where we are now, they're like, sad thing, quick, someone make a joke so it doesn't feel so sad. And I get it, cause it's for kids, but also kids understand emotions. Do you think that maybe, cause like, I can't, I can't really think of anything like, like, is it for the kids of COVID?
00:06:34
Speaker
where it's like, oh man, the kids of COVID really need something to smile about. Cause they've been trapped alone in a house for so long and they can't see any of their friends. And like, these are their friends now. And like, I don't know. Do you think it's like that kind of thing? Cause it's like, oh wait, we got to make, and also I feel like there are so many right now.
00:06:55
Speaker
kids shows that are just like very deep and like meta and stuff and like meaningful like you've got like your Steven universes and you're like your adventure times now and there's a ton of others where it's like they are sending out like as many like big messages as they can
00:07:17
Speaker
And then maybe this is like the, the after dinner mint show for kids where it's like, Oh, they just need a break here. Put on some power Rangers. I mean, that could, it does feel very breezy. And that's one of the things I am enjoying about it is again, put it on and just kind of be like, you can just enjoy this for what it is. You don't have to get too invested in a thing that's happened.
00:07:40
Speaker
Yeah. And that is kind of fun. I will say it is. I am enjoying the hell out of that. In fact, and there's more to it than just that as well. There's like.
00:07:53
Speaker
There's an episode early on in the first season of this new Power Rangers. Dino Fury is the name. Fun. Yeah, it's great. It actually had a really cool, solid moment in it that's like, we're going to teach kids actual things that they should learn.
00:08:13
Speaker
right? Because like everyone's like every kid's show has a friendship is the real power and like stuff like that and like yes that is important but sometimes it's important to impart practical advice to kids and this one had was like a lot about these people joined a gym because uh the person there was saying you know we're the best we're going to teach you the best we're going to keep and they were just milking everyone for money and they very they
00:08:40
Speaker
the people there learned very early on. This person is just trying to do whatever they can to get money out of me. They don't actually care.
00:08:49
Speaker
And I was like, hell yeah, you go Power Rangers. That's an important message for these kids to learn. Cause there's also like, oh, you have to buy this thing. You have to get the expensive membership. Now you have to buy the expensive suit that you have to wear while you're here. And if you
Spider-Man: 'Web of Death' Discussion
00:09:03
Speaker
get any, if it gets messed up at all, you have to buy a whole new expensive suit. Like it doesn't, you know, it's
00:09:10
Speaker
It was interesting. I very much enjoyed that. Plus, hey, it's the first Power Rangers show that has a lesbian Power Rangers main character.
00:09:20
Speaker
And it's not just a throwaway, hey, she kind of likes this girl. It's like a girl that they introduce and she meets her and you don't see most of the relationship form, but it's clearly there. You see the crush form and then you see them start to date. Now, unfortunately, once they start dating, that person's not in the show that much anymore, but it's still pretty cool and interesting for them to do.
00:09:48
Speaker
Yeah, that's fun. At night I've been reading a lot of the Power Rangers comic book, which is...
00:09:56
Speaker
way more mature than the show. Oh, okay. And very good. It is. Power Rangers day shift and Power Rangers after dark. It feels like it. They're like, you know what I'm saying? Like letting some of the emotions hit and like sit for a while. One of the big events early on in the series starts with one of the Power Rangers dying. And like, that's how it sets up the event. He gets murdered. Oh God. Yeah.
00:10:27
Speaker
It's fun. I'm enjoying having different aspects of one franchise that I get to enjoy. That's true. That is fun to have when you just get both sides of the coin. A good vibe. Yes. Also a good vibe is this Spider-Man story that we are going to be diving into today. Ooh, yay! I like that we just talked about one of the Power Rangers gets murdered, and then I'm pretty sure... Isn't this one called Web of Death?
00:10:57
Speaker
This is called Web of Death, and we're going to get a little into why it's called Web of Death. So over the last few episodes, we've learned that Ben is still earning his webs as the new Scarlet Spider while taking on a lot of villains a lot.
00:11:16
Speaker
of villains. And maybe a couple of girlfriends. Yeah. And Peter has been dealing with an existential crisis following one of his worst bouts of depression. And bird poison. While being poisoned by a bird during a fight with the elderly supervillain, the Vulture. So Mary Jane has been trying to fix some of the family issues that she's had while at the same time dealing with her husband's abandonment, his civilian life, and his disappearance.
00:11:42
Speaker
And this brings us all the way up to Spider-Man's Web of Death, where we get to see if any of these moving parts start to come together. So we actually get into Web of Death by starting with Amazing Spider-Man volume 1, number 397.
00:11:58
Speaker
Written by JMD Matias, penciled by Mark Bagley, inked by Larry Molestat, colored by Bob Sharon, lettered by Bill Oakley. Which, if you're paying attention, is the same creative team that we have had on Amazing Spider-Man up till this point. Which I think- Is Tom DeFalco still here?
00:12:19
Speaker
Tom DeFalco is around, but not working on Amazing Spider-Man. So it's around this time. Right, he got moved to somewhere else. So he was writing Spectacular Spider-Man, and he still does throughout this period. And this is around the time that they decide to push him off of editorial. Yes. Which is gonna be a little bit more of a,
00:12:48
Speaker
a little bit more of a thing as we get further into like the next series. So you're going to see a bit of a change and in particular things getting sort of prolonged and moved around. For reference, not too long ago, Linkara put out
00:13:11
Speaker
His anniversary episode of his show and for every anniversary he does a storyline from the clone saga and the one that he is doing that he's been doing the clone saga for a
00:13:27
Speaker
like 14 years at this point. The one he's doing is the storyline that you are doing in the next episode. The octopus funeral. Yeah, so it's a lot of fun. Things are so pushed out. There's so many mini series, so many things. That's why this has become such a lightning rod for criticism, exploration,
00:13:56
Speaker
Analyzation like it's it's Weird right so this particular issue Starts with spider-man dealing with the poison running through his body from his encounter with the vulture and the owl He is being observed by the mysterious man of mystery Cain So while watching Spidey swing through the city Cain thinks about the sinister secret that he knows involving Peter
00:14:24
Speaker
He doesn't get into details, he just says he knows a secret. Wait, this is kind of like the intro to Web of Life though, because Ben Riley was like just swinging around and Kane's like just kind of stalking him a little bit.
00:14:36
Speaker
Yeah, it's weird how Kane is just all over the place and also able to just sort of sneak, he's got like a gaudy outfit. And yet no one recognized him. Like he's blue. I don't know if we just, I don't know, like we'll have visuals again, but like a fun reminder. But like homie is full blue with like orangey hair. And like a purple cape.
00:15:04
Speaker
He's got a magenta cape. He has picked a standout color palette. It's enjoyable. I'm fascinated by him. But like in the most furious way. So unaware of all of this and possibly a clue to the mystery man of mysteries identity because Peter's spider sense does not go off.
00:15:32
Speaker
So like you should, Peter, his spider sense should be going off if it is anybody other than like Venom. Well, and that was the same with Ben Riley when he's like, wait, he's watching out for Spider-Man's at his apartment before Grim and like Kane collide. Kane's like behind him and he has no idea because his spidey's didn't tingle.
00:16:02
Speaker
Right, and that's an interesting thing to note here. Like that should be happening. So during all of this, Pete's mind starts drifting to an image of him crawling out of a clone tank. And the sudden foreign memory causes Spider-Man to lose consciousness and he falls to the rooftop below him. Soon after, Peter's body is found by none other than Dr. Octopus. Okay, wait. Before we talk more about Dr. Octopus, I'm pretty sure this is like
00:16:33
Speaker
timeline wise, this is like book three or four in the web of life. Because
00:16:41
Speaker
Like there's the weird dream sequence that I couldn't explain. Yeah. Cause it just was like out of nowhere and there is like a little panel. Now I'm going to have to go back and screenshot it. So this makes sense. Where like Spider-Man's just like curled up like Peter Parker, Spider-Man is curled up and it looks like he's in a gutter, but so he fell asleep on a rooftop where he had the clone dream. Okay.
00:17:07
Speaker
Yeah, he's like swinging through the city and then he just like falls onto the roof. Like he's just knocked out by this. He did look like he was knocked out just kind of like pretty abruptly. So this is interesting. We now know where we are timeline wise in this kind of thing, I guess. Yeah. And I did kind of structure our our reading of the series to be
00:17:33
Speaker
Kind of in the way that things should be read like there are things that like yeah The funeral for an octopus technically came out way later But we're gonna read it after this, right? Oh, okay Yeah, I was just like because when we first started this it was like we have no idea where anyone is and then like Now we're kind of like oh my god. We have a fake idea of where people are And it's like it's such a small win and I love it
00:18:04
Speaker
So Doc Ock finds Peter, and he starts thinking about what truly made him into the villain that he has become. And he questions if it was his first battle with Spider-Man or the abusive childhood that he had. And saddened by Spider-Man's apparent oncoming death, Ock believes that it is best to leave his foe to live out the rest of what his life is. You know, like whatever he has left, he should probably go and live it. I'm not going to bother.
00:18:33
Speaker
Which is a nice thing, you know. It's also interesting that he's trying to figure out, like he finds his nemesis knocked out and he's like, gee, I wonder if he made me what I am or if it was like, you know, this very traumatic thing that I went through. I also just think it's funny that it's like,
00:18:57
Speaker
To him, the two options were basically beat the shit out of Spider-Man or just leave him be and let him die of bird poison. None of the things were like, oh, take this man to a hospital. Auk has a very interesting way of looking at the world. And we'll get into more of that as we go further on.
00:19:21
Speaker
I just think it's funny that he's like, oh, like I'll let you live out the rest of your life. And it's like, this man's clearly going to die in like a couple hours. And he's clearly not getting up anytime soon. So like, what do you think he's going to be doing for the next bit of time? So after Ak leaves, Spider-Man regains consciousness and realizes that there is still one person he can go to for help.
00:19:47
Speaker
Meanwhile, a tall, muscular, and voluptuous woman walks into a bar in Manhattan. This is the first appearance of a minor character named Stunner. And it is like that jarring. It's just like this giant woman. Like, she's like an actual giant. She is
00:20:10
Speaker
she is probably like six and a half feet tall, something like she's crazy tall and very muscular and has a gigantic breasts. Oh, well, I mean, of course she does. And so this, her name is Stunner. This is her first appearance. She attracts the attention of all of the men inside the bar and starts to ask which one is man enough for her.
00:20:36
Speaker
And when none of the men can answer, they all kind of stammer and don't really have a response, she begins thrashing and like destroying the bar. And as the bartender reaches for a shotgun, Dr. Octopus soon arrives and he pays for the damages, then escorts Stunner outside, which is like kind of a classy move. He's like, hey, hey, nobody needs to get into a fight here. Yeah. Also, this woman is wild. It is like if Arnold Schwarzenegger
00:21:06
Speaker
was just a woman. And it's like, wow, good for you lady. Like the six pack is terrifying. Good for her. That's a lot of work. I have, I have this issue that is that her first appearance and I,
00:21:23
Speaker
It's an interesting cover that she's on, and I honestly thought she was a much bigger part of the story than she actually ends up being. Because they really put a focus on her, but she's secondary to everything. Right. I mean, cool intro, though. She clearly knew that none of them were fan enough for her. Yeah. Tomaloom.
00:21:51
Speaker
So Doc Ock and Stunner then return to Ock's penthouse. And she starts to question if he is mad at her for acting out. You know, going in and trashing the bar. Because he's acting kind of odd. And Doc Ock reveals that she is the best thing that has ever happened to him. And that he is actually upset. They are dating.
00:22:12
Speaker
Oh, wow. Wait, I didn't realize. Oh, that's kind of cute, though. This is kind of how that's right, man. And then like buff lady. That's a cool combination.
Character Development: Relationships and Challenges
00:22:26
Speaker
I hope at some point Marvel Unlimited puts up the issue of Unlimited Spider-Man. There is an obituary for Dr. Octopus. They wrote an obituary in case Dr. Octopus dies. Oh, wow. One of those things where it's like, we have to update the obituary because there's a chance he might die. And if he does die, we're going to put this as the official obituary.
00:22:52
Speaker
And a lot of it is like stories about him when he was younger. And there is one about him like falling in love and like being very insecure and feeling inadequate with like who he is. And it's nice to see this as like the other side of that. Him finding a stunner, you know.
00:23:11
Speaker
Wait, that's also like so cute now that I'm thinking about it. If they're like in a nice committed relationship, she's just walking into a bar and just be like, which of you is man enough for you? Just kidding. None of you. Cause I got this awesome like eight armed boyfriend. Screw you. Like, wow. She's really, that was just a great like buildup to gas up your boo. Yeah, it's fun. That's so cute. Wow. I love that you got to read that. Good for you.
00:23:41
Speaker
So after being questioned about his, uh, whether or not he was upset with her, Ock reveals he's actually upset over what has happened to Spider-Man. See, Ock always saw Peter as an honorable and good natured man. Not knowing that Peter Parker is Spider-Man, but just Spider-Man in general. But now he has seen Spider-Man out in the city and he notices that Spider-Man is humorless and angry. Like he's much more likely to just beat the shit out of someone than he is to like crack a joke.
00:24:10
Speaker
Right. So this leads Auk to realize that he has always needed Spider-Man to sort of maintain the humanity that he had. You know, he may be like a bad person, but the little like, uh, the little bit of him that still was a human being was maintained by like seeing how Spider-Man was. Interesting. Wow. He's really learned a lot about himself right now.
00:24:39
Speaker
Yeah, most of this issue, most of actually the first couple of issues, they're like, it's all Auk's point of view, and it's interesting. That's kinda cool though, that's fun. So out of nowhere, Stunner reacts to a strange sensation and reveals that she has to leave, but she will return. And when Auk asks her not to go, suddenly Stunner just disappears. She's just no longer there. She's like, that man escaped.
00:25:07
Speaker
Well, she's like, it just gone. It's like she teleported almost. Oh, is that a thing that she normally does? This is the first time we're seeing it. And it's an interesting thing that is not really followed up on in this particular story, but it's definitely set up. Oh, okay. I was going to say it's kind of like the Judas Traveler.
00:25:32
Speaker
No, there is eventually an explanation. I do know there is an explanation. It's just not in this story. And it's inappropriate. This story is not about her. She's just in it. Yeah, she's here. And after, he gets angry after she disappears, but after that kind of goes away, he gives in to despair and just stands alone in his apartment, which is incredibly sad. He's just, he doesn't want to be alone.
00:25:59
Speaker
Well, yeah, I mean, he just learned so much about himself. He had, like, the worst epiphanies ever, and he was just like, guess I gotta sit here with it.
00:26:10
Speaker
Uh, in another part of the city, Mary Jane has finally returned home, but she quickly realizes that Peter isn't anywhere to be found. So she finds the kitchen in a disastrous mess and realizes that she's just too tired and emotionally drained to deal with it. So instead she lies down in her bed alone, which is just, I think it's a really good scene. It sounds silly here, but if you read it, it's very clearly like.
00:26:37
Speaker
She comes home, her husband's not anywhere to be found, the apartment is a wreck, and the only thing she can think to do is just go to bed because she just can't deal with it. Well, yeah, I mean, she just like, you know, ran it, the trip sounded like it was a success with her family, but that's like a lot of effort to put in. And then you come home and it's like, no one bothered to take care of anything while you were gone.
00:27:06
Speaker
No, yeah, it's definitely... It would be upset, too. And you didn't even have to say hello to you. Like, that's devil-worse. Meanwhile, Spider-Man realizes that he has to go home to his wife. But he's caught in blinding pain as he begins to see visions of himself in the cloning vat again. So, this causes him to fall off the rooftop and is caught at the last minute by Stunner.
00:27:36
Speaker
As Stunner helps him to the roof, she then starts a fight because she wanted to be able to defeat him on her own terms. She just starts like throwing him and beating the shit out of him. Oh, okay. Spider-Man is too weak to fight back and he gets knocked out, but is saved at the last minute by Dr. Octopus. Doc Ock believed that something was wrong with Spider-Man, and seeing that he was unable to defend himself against Stunner, proved it.
00:28:03
Speaker
So he has decided he is going to find out what that is and ends the issue by removing Spider-Man's mask to see Peter Parker's face underneath.
00:28:15
Speaker
So this is where we leave off and we get picked up in Spectacular Spider-Man, Volume 1, Number 220, which was written by Tom DeFalco, penciled by Sal Buscema, inked by Bill Sinkevich, colored by John Kalis, and leaded by Klim Robbins. This is basically the same creative team from the last Spectacular Spider-Man, except we now have Bill Sinkevich as the anchor.
00:28:41
Speaker
And a spoiler for things that I don't like about this series. As much as I absolutely love Bill Sinkiewicz, I think he's a wonderful artist, a wonderful man. I am not a fan of his inks over Salvishima. I don't think they go together. Whenever Bill ends up inking someone,
00:29:05
Speaker
their art ends up looking like a very weird version of Bill's art and it doesn't quite work all the time. And I don't have a way of describing it unless like you have to know some Kevich's art to really understand what that means. Yeah, no, that makes sense. But it's like, you know, you're doing a group project and it's just no matter how hard you try, your group members aren't really getting along.
00:29:30
Speaker
Yeah. Sinkevich, his artwork tends to be very scratchy, very heavy on blacks, very, very stylized. And it works a lot for horror stories, for very weird fantasy things. And it can work very well for a super... I mean, he's done X-Men before, or at least New Mutants. Right.
00:29:54
Speaker
And they work really well, but they have to be the right story for it. Absolutely. When he's inking over Salbushema, and the story is about very colorful Spider-Man, very out there Dr. Octopus, it doesn't quite work. Well, that's how I feel about grayscale in movies.
00:30:12
Speaker
Oh yeah. We talked about that recently when we were talking about Zack Snyder. Yeah. That's why I don't like him because I don't, I personally don't think it, even if it is like a more serious comic movie, whatever, it shouldn't just be gray. No, I totally agree. I especially, I think it's way more fun to have a lot of color.
00:30:41
Speaker
and still tell a grounded story. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. My brain caught on fire for a hot second. Sorry. I should have gotten an extra cup of coffee or something. Holy shit. I don't know where I was going with that. We can cut all of this.
00:31:05
Speaker
I just really don't like grayscale. I was thinking about grayscale so much that I was starting to fall asleep. Oh no. We should say for our listeners, we are recording later than we normally do. And in part because you had a very long day. My car died. And I had to resuscitate him.
00:31:34
Speaker
It was not fun. And I was up at like 5 a.m. because I had to drive in my car that died on me. I went to a dentist today. This is gonna be really fun to edit and figure out where is the cut going to be.
00:31:58
Speaker
Where did Corrin start to just unravel? When did we lose her so long ago? What a time. Anyway, back to Spider-Man.
00:32:21
Speaker
So aside from your very long day and your hatred for grayscale. So this is not the best artist duo to have together because it doesn't work. They're great separate, but it doesn't work.
00:32:42
Speaker
That's fine. So we started this issue with Dr. Octopus who has been working throughout the night to find a cure for the poison that is coursing through Spider-Man's veins.
00:32:52
Speaker
Oh, okay. So he's doing what I thought he should have done like last issue. It took him a while to get there. He's not the fastest with this kind of thing. Which is funny. He's supposed to be a genius, but I guess he's not a genius in human emotion and needs. No, not at all. Great with math, bad with people. Yes. So Peter is still unconscious, but he begins dreaming of the cloning bat and writhing in pain.
00:33:21
Speaker
which causes Ak to believe that he has very little time left. So when Stunner asks why he would work so hard to save his enemy's life, Ak reveals that he sees Spider-Man as a source of inspiration. He is someone who has pushed him to be a better man and a better villain.
00:33:40
Speaker
In addition to this, he knows Peter Parker and specifically knows that there are people in his life, like Aunt May, that love him. Now, for those that have only seen the Spider-Man movies, Doc Ock has a very direct relationship with Peter Parker in those. That is not the relationship that they have in the comics. Oh, okay. So does he...
00:34:08
Speaker
Explain. So Doc Ock does know Peter, but it's through a couple of very tangential ways. So is he friends with Aunt May? He is friends with Aunt May. It is weird because so there is a point early on, the sinister six kidnapped Aunt May. And during that,
00:34:35
Speaker
Everyone like Ak got to know Aunt May and like not like become friends with her But like he came came to kind of realize that she is an interesting person later in amazing spider-man number 131 dr. Octopus Almost married her. Oh Wait, is that like canonical to when he kidnapped her though? Oh
00:35:02
Speaker
Yes. Oh, he's so cooked. It is so weird. So it's like he learns about like, I forget exactly the details of it, but it's something to do with like, there's something in the Parker house. And if he marries Aunt May, he then
00:35:19
Speaker
get access to something like legally get access to something so he was her and tries to marry her. And it's really weird but he actually does like it may be genuinely think she's a good person.
00:35:34
Speaker
Like, okay, when you said that they like knew each other, I thought it was going to be like they were P-knuckle pals at the Senior Citizen Center. Not like I kidnapped this woman and then I fell in love with her. So now I'm going to try and take shit from her legally.
00:35:51
Speaker
It is very strange, but it makes sense. And there is a point early on in the Spider-Man comics, like very early on, Peter is unmasked by Dr. Octopus, but no one believes that it's actually Spider-Man. They just think Peter dressed up like Spider-Man to give the real Spider-Man extra time and to give him a way out.
00:36:17
Speaker
So like Dr. Octopus is just like, uh, that's clearly not really Spider-Man and just like tosses Peter aside. That's right. But now that he's done it for a second time, he's like, this is him. He's like, fool me once, but fool me twice.
00:36:36
Speaker
So Otto decides the best step forward is to call Aunt May, and then he's surprised when Anna answers the phone and tells him that May is in a coma.
Visionary Moments and Life Choices
00:36:46
Speaker
So Anna is Mary Jane's aunt. Yeah, the one that confused me when I first started reading. And who has, for the most part, done the wrong thing in every appearance in this story?
00:37:00
Speaker
Yeah, she picked up the phone for like a known supervillain. I'm pretty sure like caller ID was around at this point. So like, if I just saw the little octopus emoji when I was on my phone, I'd be like, no, thank you.
00:37:15
Speaker
So she picks up the phone, they're at May's house. She's there to get things for Aunt May, like for the hospital. And she ends up telling Auk about the coma and all that. Hearing all of this, Auk sends Stunner out immediately to go buy flowers for Aunt May, which I think is very sweet. He's like, I gotta save this guy's life.
00:37:40
Speaker
And his aunt is in a coma. I gotta get her flowers. That's, you know, it's the right thing to do. I gotta send my almost wife flowers. Hey, current girlfriend, go send my almost wife flowers. As Stunner leaves, both she and Ak are completely unaware that Cain has been watching from a distance. And Cain believes Dr. Octopus is interfering with his own plans for Peter Parker.
00:38:09
Speaker
which we won't, like we'll get into eventually, but we cut- But they're not addressed right now? Is that what you're gonna tell us? Classic Cain. Classic Cain. This is the mysterious man of mystery. We cut then to the hospital where we get a scene of Mary Jane praying over Aunt May. She's terrified that if May dies, her death might impact Peter to the point that she loses her own husband.
00:38:34
Speaker
And I think this is a great scene because it feels like it's connecting a lot of Mary Jane's personal growth happening in all of the books at the time. Like she's desperate to fix her family and is panicking at the thought of losing her husband. Yeah, I mean like she's trying so hard and it's like
00:38:55
Speaker
you know, again, she put all this effort in and had like a great time in Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh? Yeah, it is Pittsburgh. And then you come back and it's just like, it's like, it's like coming home from a vacation and then just like reality slapping you super hard in the face. And that's really jarring and really stressful and shitty. Well, and it's also interesting because like part of why she went there was to
00:39:25
Speaker
try to hold together what little family she had. And that ties directly into she was losing her husband at the time and comes back to still losing her husband. She really is like the visualization of like in Spider-Man, like the second Spider-Man movie with Tobey Maguire where he's just like holding on to the train. And like, but it's, it's a her instead and she's like, my family.
00:39:54
Speaker
So we cut actually to Dr. Octopus still dealing with Peter and seeing that his his situation is deteriorating very quickly. Seeing all of this Otto was forced to inject Peter with an untested serum in the hopes of saving his life.
00:40:12
Speaker
Peter is sent into blinding pain and breaks free from his restraints only to then jump out of a window. He just jumps up and is just like, I gotta go and leaps out the window. Completely unaware of what's going on. He blacks out and just starts falling. Where is this lab? It's like a warehouse. It's like a warehouse. It's just like wherever you can find a place
00:40:40
Speaker
So this is a multi-story warehouse and he's falling out of a window now? Yeah.
00:40:48
Speaker
So I'm sorry, but the way that like, and this happened last episode two with Dr. Seaworth, where it's like, Oh yes, my dusty New York laboratory that I never use. And it's like, you are not prioritizing the proper real estate. This person is not wise to have a bunch of mechanical equipment on them. Like not the first floor, put it in the basement, put it in like,
00:41:16
Speaker
You don't know the foundation of this warehouse. You don't know if it's going to crash under you with your weird restraint mechanisms. I guarantee, regardless of where it is in the city, if you just pushed all of that equipment off to the side and you had at least, let's say, 10 square feet in there, you could make it a Starbucks. And the Starbucks will pay for that real estate, regardless of where it is.
00:41:44
Speaker
I'm just upset that the real estate decision, the location decision, the setting decisions of this whole comic series is raisins. It's raisins, it's offensive. It confuses me. I also love that, like,
00:42:05
Speaker
especially with Dr. Octopus. He is a genius and he made these robotic arms, which would make you think that his specialty is robotics. But he is a doctor in a comic book, which means he can do anything. Except for find the proper location for a laboratory.
00:42:29
Speaker
So Peter leaps out of the window and he starts falling and Doc Ock comes to his rescue yet again. It is an ongoing theme throughout this. I also must say that Spider-Man must be pretty dense to be able to break through a warehouse window. I'm sure he just leaped out. It was open? No, no, no, he breaks the window.
00:42:58
Speaker
When he regains consciousness, he's just kind of like unaware, just in a frenzy and just jumps, you know? Unless it's supposed to like, here goes to show how much pain this man was in. He just rammed himself through a window. I wonder if he had any glass like in his skin. Like you have to like pick that out after they bring him back in. I don't really know. That would be so painful. Because what kind of material is the suit made out of? I think it's just cloth.
00:43:28
Speaker
But like, my brain was like, well Denim can't, have you got a good Denim? But like, I don't think Spider-Man is wearing a full Denim suit. That would be pretty interesting. I'm so sorry for all of the tangents I've gone on today. But I think Denim Spider-Man suit is top tier. I want that in the new Spider-Man game. It's just a Denim suit. Yeah, sponsored by like Carhart or something.
00:44:00
Speaker
So much later, Peter wakes up in his full Spider-Man costume near the home he shares with Mary Jane. So he's been put back in his costume and he's suddenly no longer in the warehouse, he's just near his house. He's not in his house. No, he's near his house. He has no memory of the last few hours, but he realizes that all of his symptoms are gone. Oh, okay.
00:44:26
Speaker
So the realization that he is going to live causes Peter to realize how much he wants to live for. And at the same time, Mary Jane is walking home from the hospital, but is being carefully watched by Cain. He begins to cry over what he knows will happen to her in the future. And this comes to what you mentioned previously. Yes. And that's not necessarily laid out super clearly here.
00:44:54
Speaker
No, it's super vague. Oh, but people explicitly say that. No, he just knows something's going to happen to her and he starts crying. So it's interesting, I like that. You have to kind of, I like that it feels like two different series going, and that's an interesting way to play that, you know? Yeah.
00:45:15
Speaker
So Peter makes his way home and quickly changes into his civilian clothes while panicking about finding his wife and what he might say after such a long absence. He's like, you know what? I've been a shitty husband. I need to be able to say something about that at some point. But just then, Mary Jane enters the room and the two immediately drop what they're doing and run to each other and kiss, ecstatic at finally finding each other.
00:45:40
Speaker
which is legitimately a great scene in this comic. Yeah. It's like you went on a terrible Iowa skin retreat. And just is like, oh my God, there's so much to look for. I need to get back to society now. I don't know if, so I'm not going to drop their name. Just, there is a comedian that I used to,
00:46:09
Speaker
No tangentially like through someone and they were probably the world's biggest fan of going on an ayahuasca retreat.
00:46:20
Speaker
And it was always interesting to hear their story. I'm not saying their name because they used to be on Netflix, but they've been on TV and stuff. And I'm sure they've talked about Ayahuasca in their sets or whatever, but it was just so funny to me to see someone so obsessed with
00:46:43
Speaker
like basing their personality around such a very minor thing. Yeah, it's goofy. But back in the lab, Otto realizes that the cure given to Peter only masked his symptoms, something that Peter realizes as his symptoms start coming back. So Peter begins to realize that he is still dying and he decides he has to tell his wife.
00:47:10
Speaker
As Peter tells her, he has something important to say. Mary Jane says she does too. Can I guess? Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Is she pregnant? I think she's pregnant. She's pregnant. I knew it. She went to the doctor for stomach pain and it could have only meant baby or cancer. No other thing.
00:47:30
Speaker
And if you remember way back in like the first episode, there's a point where she's on the plane and someone's like just talking to her and she gets up and runs to get sick. And that was like the first, it was like a very minor moment. I forgot about that. That's great. That was them laying the groundwork to be like Mary Jane is pregnant. Wow. Okay. You know, that's a fun slow burn.
00:47:55
Speaker
I liked that a lot. That's pretty cool. Wow, I'm so excited. This is the first time that things have started to come together ever. We had little hints of things coming together last episode, but now I'm just like, wow. We're actually getting somewhere with something, which is nice. They took their time building up where we were going, and now we're getting to see some of it come together, and it's interesting to see what continues on, what changes.
00:48:24
Speaker
And so that's how this issue ends. He goes to tell her he has something to say. She cuts him off and is like, you're going to be a dad. So we cut to Amazing Spider-Man volume one, number 398, with the same creative team again. Again, that's JMD Matias writing, penciled by Mark Bagley, inked by Larry Malstead, colored by Bob Sharon, and lettered by Bill Oakley. I'm always going to be a big fan. Also, this is my favorite team
00:48:53
Speaker
that we've been reading. The artwork is amazing. All of it is like top notch. So Peter begins the issue by leaping all around the room in excitement that his wife is pregnant and thinking about how much he wants Aunt May to be able to meet his child. Now this causes Peter to start to worry about how he can tell his wife that he's dying. So he decides that he's going to wait just a little bit longer so that they can cherish this good news together.
00:49:22
Speaker
privately both of them are concerned about different things Peter is worried about dying before his child is born and Mary Jane is worried that Peter's spider DNA might cause issues with the baby And think of that yeah, it's an interesting thing to to be concerned about now this will eventually lead to a
00:49:45
Speaker
The MC2 storylines, which I was a big fan of, they're very of their time, so they don't necessarily read the way a modern comic book would, but those are where you follow Spider-Man's daughter throughout. Yeah, we mentioned these before. I don't know, I can't now remember if it was podcast or off. Yeah, it was on the podcast, I remember specifically.
00:50:09
Speaker
But it was, those are some of my favorite just, you pick up an issue and you read it. You get to see like the sons and daughters of like famous characters and where people are. It's a lot of fun. I love it. Yeah, that is fun.
00:50:26
Speaker
Now, the two of them then rush to the hospital so that they can share the news with Aunt May, basically thinking like she's in a coma, but we still need to treat her like she's around. You know, who knows? Yeah. And I mean, like people can hear you in the film as I'm pretty sure. Right. Yeah. So in a rare moment, the readers can see what is going through Aunt May's mind. Oh my God.
00:50:50
Speaker
She is tired and she wants to let go, but she feels like something is keeping her tethered to the living world. She doesn't know exactly what. She just knows that she does not want to be here because of just how exhausting everything is, but she feels like she can't let go yet. It's one of Dr.
00:51:13
Speaker
It's just holding her down. You will not go to heaven, damn you. You're staying here. After the hospital, Peter and Mary Jane go out to dinner, and during their meal, Peter drops a glass due to the symptoms of the poison, like he's shaking and he drops the glass. And a strange man approaches to tell Mary Jane that she has to take her husband home.
00:51:38
Speaker
And the two initially assume that the man works for the restaurant, but he corrects them, he doesn't, and then he just takes off.
00:51:48
Speaker
This is not explicitly laid out in the text, but readers of Web of Spider-Man and adjectives of Spider-Man would recognize this man as Detective Jacob Raven, the police officer from Salt Lake City. Oh my gosh, my reoccurring characters are coming into your reading.
00:52:11
Speaker
Yes. Now, after Detective Raven leaves, Peter notices Dr. Octopus outside of the restaurant watching them. He rushes out and quickly changes them to Spider-Man as he starts to remember Otto had unmasked him earlier that night. And as the two begin to fight, Otto insists that he is here to help Spider-Man, which causes more memories to come back to him, and he starts to figure out that Otto is telling the truth.
00:52:36
Speaker
So Otto explains that he is inspired by Spider-Man and wants to save him so that they can continue their rivalry and push each other further. Peter accepts Otto's help and the two leave for the lab. Meanwhile, Stunner is exercising and reveling in her superpowers when an unseen person announces that she must stay away from Dr. Octopus. Though she can't see him, the reader has shown that the voice came from Cain. Ah, yeah, it does the fancy bubble.
00:53:07
Speaker
Yeah, back in the lab, Dr. Octopus believes he's finally created an actual cure and gives it to Peter, who screams in pain and falls to the ground. Peter's soul leaves his body and he sees all of the wandering souls heading into the afterlife. This is where we are in this series, right? I don't think there has been any, like,
00:53:36
Speaker
kind of hint towards like theology or anything. Like it's all just been like crazy sci-fi, goofy crime. And now it's just like my soul to heaven. So Peter refuses to accept what's going on and he flies over to Aunt May where he is visited by her spirit.
00:54:02
Speaker
She tells him that he is supposed to be on a great adventure and she points to a bright star in the sky. Peter then leaves and heads for the light. And that's how we end this issue. Oh my god. It's even funnier because I didn't write this in, but she quotes from Peter Pan.
00:54:22
Speaker
like third star on the right, that whole thing. And he's like, yeah, I'm gonna go there
Climactic Rescues and Tragic Losses
00:54:31
Speaker
then. I'm gonna go to that light. Cause everyone knows like when you're like kind of dead, you go towards the light, right?
00:54:39
Speaker
So that brings us to Spectacular Spider-Man, volume one, number 221, written by Tom DeFalco, penciled by Sal Bashema, inked by Wilson Kevich, colored by John Kalis, and lettered by Clem Robbins. Again, same creative team. I'm loving this cohesion we have going for so long. Yeah, we're holding on to it for dear life. Unlike Peter. So Peter's soul... Peter's soul ends up finding Uncle Ben in the light that is the afterlife.
00:55:09
Speaker
And Ben tells him that he is a strong young man and that he is proud of him. He then takes Peter to meet his parents and they mention that they wish they could have warned him about the robot duplicates that were in the books just prior to the start of the clone saga. We kind of mentioned that before. Yeah. But they assure him that that sort of craziness would never happen again.
00:55:30
Speaker
And to me, this reads like the writers acknowledging that that was a bad fucking move for the books. And it pushed them into a weird direction that none of them were happy with. That seems like them apologizing for like having done that story. I love that it's kind of like, hey, glad you could make it. So we talked to God. He said, it won't happen again. Like when you turn it, when you turn everything back on, all the bug fixes are there.
00:55:59
Speaker
In the land of the living, Otto is trying to restart Peter's heart, and he has learned that the cure actually worked, but not before Peter went into heart failure. He refuses to let Spider-Man die, though. Right.
00:56:15
Speaker
So in the afterlife, Peter is realizing he is being pulled back to the land of the living, and he is stopped by Harry Osborn, son of the original Green Goblin and a goblin himself. He is dead. So prior to this, Harry had become the Green Goblin.
00:56:31
Speaker
and had done a lot to sort of torture Spider-Man and Mary Jane and just like fucked with their lives in general. And at one point, like the robot duplicates were explained to be part of Harry's plan before he died to fuck with Peter Moore.
00:56:54
Speaker
So but Harry died. So it was one of those weird things where like he saves Peter Parker from a trap that he put himself like he put them into. And because he realized that the last minute he didn't want to be evil anymore and he like had this redemption and then died. Yeah, it's actually very sweet. But so anyway.
00:57:17
Speaker
Yeah, he stops Peter and he tells him that it's not his time, but he is more than happy to force him to stay. And as he says this, his face starts to twist into the green goblin and he tells him that he can't wait to torment him for all of eternity. Oh boy. Peter refuses to stay though and decides to embrace life.
00:57:40
Speaker
Dr. Octopus sees that Peter is about to regain consciousness and orders Stunner to go carry out a task that he had given her before. Peter wakes up and Otto hands him his mask, explaining that he saved his life so that they can continue their endless struggle with each other. And at that moment, the police burst in, having been given an anonymous tip on the whereabouts of Otto Octavius.
00:58:06
Speaker
Doc Ock immediately surrenders and warns Spider-Man that this is just a plan so that he can better plot his next move. So essentially, Stunner is the one that called the police. This whole thing was set up so that he could turn himself in. Right, okay. Mary Jane, meanwhile, has been cleaning the apartment and wondering what the future may hold when Peter returns home with roses and a gift for her. He tells her that he is ready for the first day of the rest of their lives.
00:58:37
Speaker
Mary Jane opens the present and is happy to learn that it's a crib for their unborn child. Oh, cute. Yeah, every bit of them having a kid I think is adorable in this. Yeah, and he really just like, he got, he decided to get his shit together just in time. Yeah, this is a vastly different Spider-Man that I've been reading. Yeah, because now he's got like nine months to like get his shit together.
00:59:07
Speaker
Yeah. So meanwhile, Stunner watches the police transport that holds Dr. Octopus and is ready to free him. She is taken out by a gas bomb, however, and Kane leaps down into the transport truck. While Mary Jane and Peter put together their crib, Otto and Kane fight in the streets. Kane overpowers Octavius and snaps his neck before burning his mark into his face. Oh my God.
00:59:34
Speaker
Later, Stunner wakes up and rushes to find Octavius and is horrified to see his dead body. Yeah. And that's how we end the web of death. Oh my god. Yeah, so it's a weird... Kane's killed two Spider-Man bad guys. Yeah, and we're gonna get into a little bit of why. Okay.
01:00:00
Speaker
So to start off, I'll go with what's good and what worked. Sure. So Spider-Man's decision to embrace life, I think, felt earned. It's been a long and slow process over the last few issues of returning Peter Parker to the kind of person that everyone can recognize. And I think it's really interesting to give him multiple opportunities of piecing back together who he was.
01:00:26
Speaker
Like it's kind of annoying that he has to learn the same lesson over and over, but it does feel like he was on a path. And I guess in the end, it's a pretty big lesson to learn. Like it is very much like a self identity kind of thing. And like, yeah, you probably do have to go through like a bit of hell to realize like what matters to you in life.
01:00:54
Speaker
So shout out to bird poison. If you're a fictional character who doesn't know yourself, I guess, bird poison, you'll learn a lot. This podcast is brought to you by bird poison. Not good for real people, great for comic characters. I just need to say that now.
01:01:22
Speaker
in case one of our five people is like, oh, Karen said drink first, so I gotta do it.
01:01:29
Speaker
Don't do it. I also genuinely loved Peter's reaction to finding out that he's going to be a dad. Like the pure joy that is just so much more fun to read than the easy route of milking that exact same scene for drama. Like having him be like, oh, I don't know what to do with this information. And then Mary Jane being upset, like that kind of comes into it. But had that been the focus, I would have been very bored. Yeah, it's nice to like give your character just like a little joy box.
01:01:58
Speaker
Yeah, it's good. It's fun. I love it. And it reminds you that they do actually like love each other. Yeah. Yeah. And Otto's weird heroic turn is also one of the only reasons that I think this character is more interesting than the Green Goblin or some of other bad guys that Spidey has. It's
01:02:18
Speaker
an interesting take on the character. And I like it more when Otto is written this way than when he's just like the crazy villain who will do whatever to get like the thing that he wants. Yeah, you gotta have a blend of both. Yeah, I think. And I love how evil the Green Goblin is and like the crazy things that he will do. But that's a very different kind of character. And I like that Otto is a different kind of villain.
01:02:43
Speaker
Yeah, there's always different types of unhinged and evil, and you gotta explore them all if you're gonna have a comic character with this many villains. So. Yeah. There's just so many motives. I'm gonna get to what didn't work. Cool.
01:03:01
Speaker
And I think having Peter think he's cured just a couple of issues after Peter thought he was cured at the end of this, the last storyline makes this whole thing feel a little rushed. Like you were, you gave him a, a cure, it didn't work. And then a couple of issues later, you gave him a cure and it didn't work. And then a couple of issues later, you gave him a cure and it worked. That's weird. And it, it's not very good, uh, dramatic storytelling. I think it's, uh, um,
01:03:31
Speaker
It feels like you didn't know what to do for the middle part of your story. Yeah. Like maybe if it was like he had the first attempt of like an antidote and it starts to go really well. And maybe he's like starting to fall back into the shittier habits and then eventually like the pain doubles.
01:04:01
Speaker
Yes. And then it's like, it's hard to find the doc again. And then like, you know, it becomes even more painful of a process to get it right. Yeah. To really show like, Oh God, like, okay, well this time if it, like, you know, we don't know if it's going to work or not. I got to make the best of it. Cause clearly like I'm going at some point. Yes. Yeah.
01:04:28
Speaker
Another thing that I didn't think worked, so the afterlife scene. I think it's interesting and I think it's fun. And it makes the Clone Saga a little bit more complicated than it may seem right now. It's not the scene itself I have a problem with, it's what we will eventually learn that makes this way more of a problem.
01:04:56
Speaker
Uh, yeah, I feel like, okay. So they were really leaning in on like the clone dream and everything. And now you've tossed like souls in the matter. So now it's going to be like, does Ben Riley have a soul? If Kane is connected to the two of them, does he have one or are they sharing a soul? Like what? Like.
01:05:20
Speaker
I'm going to start being like, what kind of supernatural season is this? So it isn't a problem for the clone saga as it was originally planned. But things change, and that unfortunately puts a weirdness on how this particular scene plays out. And I'll get more into it later. We're not crazy far off from where I will get to explain to you why it doesn't make sense. Right.
01:05:47
Speaker
But at the time of its publication, all of the characters were considered dead. All of the ones in the afterlife. Yes. But that has since been shown to be not the case. For instance, Harry, as revealed in Amazing Spider-Man number 581, did indeed die, but only for a very brief period and was revived shortly after.
01:06:10
Speaker
There there's another character still considered to be alive during the scene, but I'm not gonna hold on to that for I'm not gonna like give you that info. We're gonna talk later
01:06:21
Speaker
But the Harry thing in particular is interesting because if that later retcon is considered accurate, then he cannot be in the afterlife in this scene. It's just nothing. So it could be like a delusion. There is also a bit, we're in more trivia in a minute. I'll get into a possible explanation, but it,
01:06:50
Speaker
you're still having to make assumptions and guess at how does this fit together. It's weird. I've read a lot of Spider-Man, and ghosts and souls and the dead are not necessarily a big part of it. It's weird when that gets thrown in. Yeah, it's something I think of when I think of Spidey Boy. Yeah.
01:07:19
Speaker
But moving forward, so now we're gonna get into a little bit of trivia. An interesting wrinkle in the complaint about dead characters, later being revealed to be alive, was put forth in the official handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z number six. That handbook contains an entry regarding the Legion of the Unliving, which is a team of villains whose members were all supposedly dead at the time of their membership.
01:07:48
Speaker
Now, many of those members were revealed to be alive when they were thought to be dead. And the handbook suggests that these members, such as Norman Osborn or Bucky Barnes, the handbook suggests that they were demonic impostors. And that is one of the things that people have brought forth as like a possible explanation for who the spirit of Harry Osborn was that Peter ran into.
01:08:15
Speaker
Which is kind of an interesting thing, like, oh, it was a demon the entire time. And it's just kind of weird to me. I don't really get why that would, it makes more sense just to be like, he was hallucinating. Unless we're going to learn that like Kane is like some sort of demon-y type of character, but it still just feels very much like he's so sci-fi oriented. And I don't know if that's just because I'm biased with
01:08:46
Speaker
the other issues we've read before this. Yeah. I mean, it's well, we'll eventually get more into to Kane. And there are some characters that are a blend of both in Spider-Man. Yeah. So, I mean, you can you can walk that line. It's just. We're in a weird spot where that it doesn't nothing makes this part make sense, you know. Yeah, I getcha. Now I'm going to quote from Life of Riley.
01:09:16
Speaker
which we've been going over, one of the definitive things about Ben Riley, I love it. Glenn Greenberg states, Mary Jane's pregnancy was Tom DeFalco's idea, and it came early in the planning stages for the clone saga. As editor-in-chief, Tom had approved the clone storyline in the first place, and shortly thereafter, as Spider-Man editor Danny Fingereth's urging, he ended up as one of the regular Spider-Man writers.
01:09:43
Speaker
In this capacity, Tom proposed that a major dramatic event that would help set up the saga's ultimate resolution would be that Mary Jane becomes pregnant. It was a ballsy idea and everyone was excited by it. And since Tom was still the ultimate authority at Marvel at that time, it was safe to say that the somewhat controversial idea would go through without a hitch. I also think it's interesting that they mentioned that this is a setup for the conclusion of the clone saga.
01:10:13
Speaker
because that also shows you we're early in the stages of them setting up the ending for it. Because again, this was not supposed to last as long as it does. So we're already setting up everything that becomes the climax of the clone saga. It does feel like the stakes are definitely rising.
01:10:34
Speaker
A lot. Right. And we're super early on because, again, it was supposed to end like like if it ended when it was supposed to, we would be done in a couple of episodes. Right. But we've got a lot more to go through. Yeah, we've weeks and weeks of stuff.
01:10:55
Speaker
Now back to Glenn Greenberg's comments. He says, I remember being in a meeting with Bob Budiansky and it was explained to Tom and me that Dr. Octopus was going to be killed to show just how badass Kane was. This was going to be a really big deal, a dramatic high point, and Kane was going to be a major player. Make no mistake, Doc Ock's death was intended to be permanent. We clearly saw his dead body, remember?
01:11:24
Speaker
Upon hearing about it, I was pretty skeptical. I'm not a big fan of killing off major villains, especially classic ones like Dr. Octopus, and I had serious doubts that a character of his stature and history could ever suitably be replaced by a new villain. Now, again, it is interesting here because, yes, they were planning on keeping Doc Ock dead. Now, he doesn't stay dead.
01:11:49
Speaker
I don't think it happens during the Clone Saga, but at some point they bring him back from the dead. And he doesn't remember Peter as Spider-Man. It's resetting him back to before this event. Right. Which is like, okay, that's fine, whatever.
01:12:11
Speaker
Now, again, back to Glenn Greenberg. I clearly remember reading the issue where Doc Ock died. Tom DeFalco wrote the issue, but I got the feeling that he did it somewhat reluctantly. I don't think he particularly liked the idea of killing off Doc Ock, especially in the way that Ock was to be killed. And while the story was certainly well written, I just don't get the sense that Tom's heart was really in it. The fact that Tom later resurrected Dr. Octopus at the first opportunity would seem to back me up on this.
01:12:38
Speaker
I also like because so in the issue when Doc Ochs gets killed, do we see that? Like do him and Cain have a discussion or like you said, is it just like when Stunner walks in and he's just dead? You see Doc Ochs neck getting snapped. Like it is a like.
01:12:59
Speaker
It is on panel. They break his neck. So do we get any like dialogue between him and Cain before that? Or is it just like it's mostly them like kind of it's like like fight banter, you know? Oh, it's nothing like so it's not like a ceremonious kind of.
01:13:22
Speaker
It is a brutal brawl that ends with someone being murdered. Like if you read it, it's very, especially because it's juxtaposed with Peter and Mary Jane putting the crib together. So it's, there is like a weird mixture of yes. So it's an interesting way of doing it. And it's, I'm, I do like Dr. Octopus. I'm,
01:13:50
Speaker
Not opposed to killing off characters, but I am also, and I tend to be one of the people that like, I think it's way more interesting to find things to do to a character that doesn't kill them. Right. Because once you kill them, like that's the end of the story for the most part.
01:14:07
Speaker
I don't find killing off characters as interesting as a lot of other people do. I think you can easily raise the stakes without having it be, oh, we're gonna kill Captain America. It's like, okay. You will do something that makes it harder for Captain America. And I think that's far more interesting. Yeah, I think the whole Mary Jane pregnancy
01:14:33
Speaker
It's like a great way to like make things more interesting because now like he's already been struggling with the balance of being Spider-Man and having a marital life. Yeah. But now he has to add on raising a kid with a wife and like what a time. I think it's great. I'm fully on board. I was also super on board with
01:15:01
Speaker
their marriage, so I think you should let Peter Parker be a dad. I also, I loved Superman as a dad. My, like, the- Super dad! The series where he has a kid, one of my favorite, I mean, he's like a teenager now in this year, and I don't really, like, that's fine. I don't really care so much.
01:15:26
Speaker
I liked it more when he was a little kid and he had to teach him. I also, there's the TV show, Superman and Lois. Yeah, where he's a dad. I loved it. That was my favorite part. Honestly, as they got more into the plot of the show, which had to deal a lot with like Superman stuff, I cared so much less. I wanted to see Superdad being a Superdad. That was my favorite part of that show.
01:15:54
Speaker
And I honestly watched all the way up to the finale of the first season, and then I realized I don't care about the villain. Yeah. I just wanted to see Clark Kent trying to teach his kids how to be good people. Yeah. I am here for it. Absolutely. Go dads. But that's all I really have.
01:16:19
Speaker
for the web of death. And we will be coming back with the next episode being the funeral for an octopus. And then shortly after it'll come back, we'll do smoke and mirrors. And that's where we'll get a lot more of the mixing of the two books.
01:16:44
Speaker
Right. So we'll have, we're going to have a lot more to go over and I think we're going to have a lot of fun. Funeral for an octopus, I think in particular, you will have a good amount of fun with. I'm vaguely aware of the story. So it's a good amount of like seeing where the characters get to be, how we deal with Doc Ock's passing and what that means to
01:17:13
Speaker
the lives that he's touched. Right. Anything to add before we wrap everything up? I just liked how it started. Like you can see where bits of both of us reading connect. I liked that we were starting to see that.
01:17:34
Speaker
Cain is still weird. And rest in peace, Mr. Octopus Man. I'll read about you soon. Yeah, we have plenty to go. And I think if we ever get caught up in the clone saga, an interesting thing to follow up, maybe not right after, but an interesting thing to follow up this would be the superior Spider-Man, where you see Dr. Octopus as Spider-Man.
01:18:04
Speaker
Oh, yeah. And get an interesting look at the way the character, uh, works. Yeah. But you can find more information at comically pedantic.com. You can also follow us on Twitter. Oh, actually, no, you cannot follow us on Twitter. I deleted that. Forget about Twitter. Forget about Twitter who needs it.
01:18:26
Speaker
You can follow us on Instagram by searching at pedanticast. New episodes come out most Sundays on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and at comicallypedantic.com, which we will also be adding, probably not super regularly, but we'll be adding some comic book reviews for you to go over. If you have any comments or questions, you can send them in text or audio recording to comicallypedanticatgmail.com. Please indicate if you'd like your name or question right on the air.
01:18:53
Speaker
We will again be back with Funeral for an Octopus and another deep dive into the world of comics, but until then, you can find more exciting adventures at your local comic shop.