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S4 Episode 8: Iran-Israel War, Nuclear weapons and Trump.
55 Plays25 days ago
Today John and Dejan are discussing the current Israel-Iran conflict, whether countries should have nuclear weapons, and Donald Trump. Please like and follow the podcast wherever you listen, and follow us on social media.
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Transcript
Introduction and Overview
00:00:01
John Gartside
Hello and welcome back to the Debatable Discussions podcast. Today you join us for another exciting episode as we're going to delve into the Iran and Israel conflict.
00:00:13
John Gartside
So Diane, can you perhaps provide a brief overview of what is happening in the world and, well, I guess again, Israel dominates the headlines.
00:00:22
Dejan
Well, they they do I'm sure a lot of our viewers have seen those videos from Beirut, mostly from Lebanon with people enjoying a night out and bombs and missiles lighting up the sky in the recent attacks happening both from Israel towards Iran and from Iran towards Israel.
00:00:37
John Gartside
I mean, shocking. Yeah. Yeah.
Trump's Provocative Statements
00:00:48
Dejan
It's really interesting, I think, because that does just show of where we've come to. You know, people in the middle, in Lebanon especially, because they're caught in that sort of middle area next to the conflict, are just finding this normal.
00:01:07
Dejan
There is no fear of seeing the missiles in the sky. There's... quite a famous video of this guy singing, singing, playing the saxophone whilst people are unfortunately dying in the recent attacks.
00:01:23
Dejan
So we've seen what Trump has said. And Trump says the following thing, and i quote, Israel must unconditionally surrender.
Iran's Military Action Against Israel
00:01:34
Dejan
And he says that at least for now he's not going to kill Ayatollah Khomeini.
00:01:40
Dejan
I don't know what this statement is.
00:01:42
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:01:43
Dejan
I don't know how the US president can say that he's going to not kill a leader for now. What do you think about that, John?
00:01:50
John Gartside
Yeah, I mean, I think with Trump, I mean, his reaction to the whole conflict has been just slightly bizarre, perhaps characteristic of himself anyway.
00:01:59
Dejan
Yeah.
00:01:59
John Gartside
i i mean, a quick summary for our listeners who don't know, but beginning on Friday, the 13th of June, Israel Amin attacked military sites across Iran.
00:02:08
John Gartside
In particular, they sort of aimed at these nuclear sites. And this whole operation was actually called Operation Rising Line. they've done around 50 strikes on Tehran and the surrounding area, all aimed at these military sites.
00:02:23
Dejan
Yeah.
00:02:25
John Gartside
And I believe they've actually made quite a bit of progress in stopping Iran's, well, quite fearsome nuclear armory. Another sort of talking about famous clips, Diane, there was obviously that one that went viral across social media of those people in that Beirut terrorist with a saxophonist, as they can see this horrendous sight of missiles raining down on Iran.
00:02:52
John Gartside
However, there's also been another one go very popular. And that is actually there was an Israeli strike. I think it was on the Iranian state television service. And the presenter literally had to leave the rumors.
00:03:06
John Gartside
As you can see, sort of the walls and the ceiling was crumbling. But Trump, as you said there, Diane, he's tried to renew his role as international peace broker. He's sort of encouraging, one would presume, Iran and Israel to enter agreements.
00:03:21
John Gartside
This is amidst claims that they have had no involvement in these strikes. And then...
00:03:26
Dejan
I mean,
Global Nuclear Weapon Debate
00:03:27
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:03:27
Dejan
I mean, that's just that's just that's just outrageous, isn't it?
00:03:31
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:03:31
Dejan
You can't really say you can't say we found no engagement in the strikes and then actually going to do this now. I'm going search up Benjamin Netanyahu's Instagram page. and try get a direct quote.
00:03:42
John Gartside
Once you do that, let's...
00:03:45
Dejan
And actually, I have gotten one. Israeli forces control the skies of Tehran. I am proud of our country's security force. We will win together.
00:03:56
Dejan
I mean, it's just outrageous trying to actually say these things and trying to get people to believe you when...
00:03:57
John Gartside
Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:06
John Gartside
No one has...
00:04:06
Dejan
Clearly they've, yeah, I mean, clearly both sides have really lost the plot. Because, yeah, and I agree, you know, it it Iran's nuclear program is a cause for concern.
00:04:16
Dejan
But so is Israel's.
00:04:18
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:04:19
Dejan
Israel should not have nuclear weapons. And they do.
00:04:23
Dejan
For me, that's concerning. Pakistan having nuclear weapons is also equally concerning. India having nuclear weapons is equally concerning. There is no reason for these people to have nuclear weapons.
00:04:35
Dejan
The only countries that should have nuclear weapons, as agreed by international law, are Russia, the US, s the UK, France and China as the P5.
00:04:47
John Gartside
ah I see that idea of nuclear weapons, as you mentioned there, we'll go back to Trump in a second, but that is very interesting because... Obviously, with nuclear weapons, when one country has nuclear weapons, for them to be a deterrent, you also have to have nuclear weapons.
00:05:04
John Gartside
And you sort of enter this cycle of which countries have this sort of mutual, almost this relationship with each other, where they mutually know they won't strike one another because of their nuclear potential.
00:05:17
John Gartside
But to carry on that deterrent, they further develop their own nuclear weapons.
00:05:17
Dejan
Yeah.
00:05:22
John Gartside
And therefore, we've seen countries, as you mentioned that, like Pakistan, like Iran, like Israel. These are countries that want to be big players on the world stage. And how do they do this? By creating a nuclear arsenal, which is frankly terrifying, isn't it?
00:05:38
John Gartside
Because, mean, the consequences of nuclear war are destruction.
00:05:38
Dejan
Yeah.
00:05:41
John Gartside
There's no sort of, there's no leeway in that. It's complete destruction. Therefore, I think, yeah, I mean, perhaps let's sort of explore that idea, Diane. What's your take on nuclear weapons? They're obviously a deterrent, but would you be an advocate for a complete ban of them, let's say?
00:05:58
Dejan
Well, I would for a couple of reasons. I'm not sure would be the most practical, and and I'll say that up front. Because I think it's very hard when you're dealing with people such as Putin, Kim Jong-un, Donald Trump.
00:06:10
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:06:13
Dejan
to actually believe anything they say. I don't really, I wouldn't really trust any of these people when I ask for the time, alone if they've gotten rid of their nuclear weapons.
00:06:25
Dejan
But ah in theory, if we didn't have these three characters anymore, but these three big players, the idea of getting rid of nuclear weapons is a very good one because it sort of brings back
US Foreign Policy Critique
00:06:40
Dejan
the potential for destruction hugely.
00:06:43
Dejan
Now, some might argue, and I do see their point, is that nuclear weapons actually cause more peace, because less potent countries get involved less in war.
00:06:49
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:06:52
Dejan
I don't think that's true. I think you look at the USA, they've gotten involved in about every single conflict in the last 30 years, even if they have nuclear weapons. Maybe not directly, but
00:07:03
Dejan
They still provide weapons, intelligence, etc., etc., etc. So my big reason for getting rid of nuclear weapons is simply because, again, we have a couple of people who have access to these that I simply do not trust with the world.
00:07:22
Dejan
You know, Trump having a big red button, Putin having a big red button, Kim Jong-un having a big red button. It's just not sustainable in the simplest terms.
00:07:33
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:07:36
Dejan
You can't try to preserve and build a world when you've got multiple people can just do this and have the whole place blown up.
00:07:48
John Gartside
Yeah, I mean, I agree with there. And I agree with your stance there. I do think it's also very good counter argument as well, that obviously they do sort of encourage, encourage peace in this paradoxical way, because they are a deterrent for invasion, because one would know the consequences of destruction.
00:08:05
John Gartside
But likewise, with you, Diane, refuting that, I would say, can't conventional military force also be deterrent, because that can cause a lot destruction.
00:08:15
Dejan
Yeah.
00:08:16
John Gartside
And the whole unpredictability thing is really imperative in the modern day because just the other day I was reading that actually this is the UK's nuclear weapon. So I'd imagine China, Russia's and the USA's are far stronger.
00:08:31
John Gartside
But just the UK's, I think, nuclear arsenal is individually 50 times stronger than the bombs dropped on Hiroshima.
00:08:42
John Gartside
now that bomb managed to a drop master's basically a white house an entire city therefore that just sort of goes to show how much stronger you know more harmful and dangerous nuclear weapons are at the moment since world war ii and actually the level of destruction it would cause has transitioned probably from this national scale to actually a global one i think ah ah the effects bomb would be global
00:09:05
Dejan
Yeah, I think I do think Russia in do think Russia in the USA definitely have weapons that can blow up continents.
00:09:14
Dejan
You know, i i maybe not huge continents, but I think if you drop a bomb the central of Europe, you could have pretty devastating effects all around.
00:09:19
John Gartside
Nevertheless.
00:09:25
John Gartside
Yeah. And I think, you know, think Putin wouldn't, but at the end of the day, one thing I think anyone would agree is that no one knows what goes on in his head and you want to eliminate that risk.
Trump's Diplomatic Blunders
00:09:39
John Gartside
But going back over to Trump and the Iran-Israel conflict that has raged on for the past five days since the time of recording with Israel attacking nuclear sites in Iran.
00:09:51
John Gartside
Trump, as you said, Dayan, has been quite characteristically unpredictable about this. You mentioned how he said, at least not for now, we are not going to kill Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.
00:10:04
John Gartside
do you have to say about this? I mean, at least not for now is quite an interesting statement. Does that mean later?
00:10:09
Dejan
I think it's an outrageous statement.
00:10:11
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:10:13
Dejan
So quickly, I think it's an outrageous statement. I don't think as a president of a state, you can make the claim that you're you're you are going, you are thinking about assassinating another world leader, whether you agree with them or not.
00:10:24
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:10:26
Dejan
You know, this is things that Stalin used to do. Things that I mean,
00:10:34
Dejan
You know, I don't really want to say this, but not even Hitler did that.
00:10:38
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:10:38
Dejan
You know, not even the meanest of the mean, Hitler, Mao, did that.
00:10:40
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:10:42
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:10:44
Dejan
You can't, you can't go around saying that at least for now, implying that maybe in the future you are going to kill Allah Khomeini.
00:10:56
Dejan
Yeah, it's not the US's business, frankly. What?
00:11:01
Dejan
Dude, it's illegal.
00:11:03
John Gartside
Yeah, I mean, in fact, there probably are actually comparisons with Hitler. I mean, Hitler probably did want to assassinate world leaders. But yeah, it's totally ridiculous that Trump would be like, would say something of that degree, but very characteristically Trump.
00:11:18
John Gartside
And another statement he said is, we know exactly where Ayatollah is. He is an easy target, but is safe there. whole language of target, at least not for now, i i mean, is he saying on the world stage that he's about to assassinate the leader of Iran?
00:11:36
John Gartside
mean, both you and me, we think he's a callous.
00:11:37
Dejan
I mean, that seemed like it.
00:11:40
John Gartside
Yeah, both of us think he's, I told us, a callous, heartless individual. But we probably wouldn't say, well, we're thinking about assassinating him later on. I mean, that's sort of the opposite of diplomacy.
00:11:50
Dejan
Yeah.
00:11:53
John Gartside
Another thing that Trump's done as well, sort of further stoking the chaos of the situation, is that he sort of encouraged Iranians to flee.
00:12:04
John Gartside
And we've got this situation of around 10 million people in Tehran trying to flee, but they've got nowhere to go. So it's just created this mass hysteria, mass panic in the city.
00:12:15
Dejan
I mean, I do think this is a bit, I think maybe this is sort of my more chompskin wing coming out, but it's just classic USA involvement the Middle East.
00:12:16
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:12:28
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:12:28
Dejan
You know, we've had Sierra, we all know how that went. Obviously not very well. Basically brought the country to its knees, destroyed it.
00:12:37
John Gartside
Yeah. The US has a mixed-tracked record.
00:12:42
Dejan
caused caused caused the greatest migrant crisis in history and now they're about to do the same thing in iran and now just instead of uh assa sad but she bashar al-assad now you've got al-adol al-assad as the target and it's just again that that sort of track record just does not make me more comfortable and at ease at all the opposite the opposite to be honest because
00:13:09
John Gartside
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:13:13
Dejan
I am afraid we're going to have another migrant crisis. I think we might have another long, prolonged war in the Middle East that's going to end with destruction, economic non-existence and a country being brought to its knees.
00:13:30
Dejan
I mean, you look at the leader of Syria. He's a former ISIS member or Al-Qaeda member.
00:13:35
Dejan
I'm not sure which one of the two, but it's one of them. Because apparently it it was the only place he could get political experience in.
00:13:43
John Gartside
Oh, wow. Yeah.
00:13:44
Dejan
I mean, is this, do we really want to repeat Syria?
00:13:49
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:13:50
Dejan
Is it really a smart move to start making the same things that have happened before?
00:13:56
John Gartside
Yeah. I mean, I guess the US wasn't directly involved in... in the Syrian leader coming recently in the coup. But I mean, as you said, Diane, that is a very Chomsky-esque take on it. And the US, as you said there, they do have a mixed sort of negative, one could easily say, track record in the Middle East.
00:14:15
Dejan
Especially in the Middle East.
00:14:15
John Gartside
They're very,
00:14:16
Dejan
Yeah.
00:14:17
John Gartside
despite the Monroe Doctrine, which is the traditional US s doctrine, saying that they should be isolationist, they are very interventionist in the Middle East. And I think it was very interesting, but someone from the Middle East was recently telling me about how they view there is this Western perception of the Middle East as this hotbed of regional conflict and hostility.
00:14:26
Dejan
Yeah.
00:14:41
John Gartside
And if you think perhaps about US involvement in the Middle East and about... all these events that have taken that place there, one's perception of the Middle East is almost quite clouded as one does associate it with warfare, which is a very wrongful association for a region which is so rich in a culture, rich in history.
00:14:59
Dejan
Yeah.
00:15:03
John Gartside
Yeah. Perhaps as a final thing, Diane, we could also mention the recent G7 summit in Canada. ah ah So sort of classic,
00:15:13
Dejan
Indeed we can. Just before I interrupted that, I was crowding through Siamidate for some reason. And I end up on a sort of pro-Republican page with the G7 summit.
00:15:28
Dejan
And it showed the approval ratings of presidents or leaders president of the G7 summit.
00:15:33
John Gartside
Oh, wow.
00:15:37
Dejan
I mean, it was just outrageous. Trump having the second highest approval rating.
00:15:42
John Gartside
Oh, wow. That surprises me.
00:15:44
Dejan
Well, no, but it's not true.
00:15:46
John Gartside
Okay. Yeah.
00:15:52
Dejan
approval with with sir friedrich merz the german chancellor who just got elected having something of about 30 percent now the election happened about two months ago and he got about 45 percent of votes so i don't i don't see how these people are getting these numbers but it is it is just this world we live in where
00:16:01
John Gartside
Oh, yeah.
00:16:07
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:16:15
Dejan
Unless you're you you quite attuned to fake news and quite ready to intercept them, can see something like that and actually think Friedrich Merz, Emmanuel Macron, basically every reader apart from Trump and George Maloney had horrible numbers.
00:16:21
John Gartside
um Yeah.
00:16:24
John Gartside
It's true.
00:16:31
John Gartside
Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, yeah. And as you said there, one's perception of Trump would be changed by this sort of fake news endemic that strikes the world.
00:16:42
John Gartside
But at G7, one would have to say that comical Don striked again at G7 this year. Comical Don obviously being comical Donald Trump because there were a few interesting slip-ups, I thought, that made the whole event quite funny.
00:17:00
John Gartside
Firstly, UK-US trade deal. This was previously negotiated when Starmer was over in Washington. was things such as the lowering of aluminium tariffs, agreeing sort of number of car imports.
00:17:12
John Gartside
However, when they did the sort of the photo shoot for announcing this deal, Trump did actually drop all the pages of the deal from this book it was in onto the floor. And you had this interesting thing where Trump was holding it Starmer was sort of having to pick up all these pieces of paper off the floor.
00:17:29
John Gartside
Then I'll ask for your reaction on this one, Diane. But in characteristic Donald Trump style, he sort showed his boastful and one could say rather arrogant personality with some comments towards Emmanuel Macron.
00:17:44
John Gartside
Macron presumed that Trump had left G7 a day early to sort of negotiate to negotiate a ceasefire with Iran and Israel.
00:17:54
John Gartside
However, Trump has claimed this is not what he was going to do. And is comment from Truth Social, the social media platform he does own, about Emmanuel Macron, taken as reaction to his comments.
00:18:09
John Gartside
Publicity seeking President Emmanuel Macron of France mistakenly said that I left the G7 summit in Canada to go back to DC to work on a ceasefire between Israel and Iran.
00:18:21
John Gartside
Wrong. Emmanuel always gets it wrong. Stay tuned. What do to say about these perhaps rather arrogant comments from Donald Trump, Dan? It's
00:18:30
Dejan
I mean, again, again, it's just not a great way to do diplomacy,
US-European Relations Tensions
00:18:36
John Gartside
not, yeah.
00:18:37
Dejan
is it?
00:18:37
Dejan
When France is probably the US's biggest ally at the moment, France and Germany in the EU. Because there is, I think there's a genuine sort of part of the EU that absolutely dislikes America nowadays.
00:18:49
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:18:49
Dejan
and think that EU should be much less reliant on America, stop imposing things for America, put big tariffs on America, and basically just cut down US corporations in Union until Trump gets his act together.
00:19:05
Dejan
think Emmanuel Macron and Friedrich Merz, but mostly Emmanuel Macron, actually were reasonable with Trump.
00:19:13
Dejan
We saw that meeting with Macron and Trump. I thought, know, very cordial, went very well. And again, Macron is one of those people in Europe at the moment who are running the show.
00:19:25
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:19:26
Dejan
He is, in my opinion, I've said this before, the number one guy in Europe at the moment.
00:19:32
Dejan
Every time there's something, there's a Ukraine summit, he's there, he's leading it, he's hosting.
00:19:38
Dejan
much more than Keir Starmer and slightly more than the new German Chancellor, who's obviously got some big, big issues, economic issues in Germany to to to deal with.
00:19:49
Dejan
But Emmanuel Macron has always been the US's number one ally it comes to foreign policy in the Soviet European landscape. I find it incredibly stupid to make these comments when it wasn't anything insulting.
00:20:03
Dejan
If Macron said Trump went home to play golf a day, I think fine. You know, can see that.
00:20:08
John Gartside
probably true. Yeah.
00:20:10
Dejan
I mean, it was probably true, but the guy genuinely said, you're going back to work on this world changing piece. You could just take it and the thank him for the best wishes instead of making these arrogant comments that
00:20:20
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:20:28
Dejan
I've got another question now. If you weren't going back to negotiate a trade deal, what were you doing?
00:20:35
John Gartside
Yeah. I mean, yeah, that is a very good question.
00:20:37
Dejan
Not a trade deal, a ceasefire. If you weren't going back to negotiate ceasefire, what were you doing?
00:20:41
John Gartside
That is a very good question. But I think it has been, as you said there, Diane, a trope of Trump's second presidency, this rather demeaning look, this demeaning perspective upon Europe.
00:20:55
John Gartside
This is reflected in this quote he said on Truth Social towards Emmanuel Macron of France. And he downplays the significance of Europe hugely.
00:21:07
John Gartside
think this idea of America first, he's obviously always campaigned for this idea, but he believes it a bit almost too much.
00:21:07
Dejan
Yeah.
00:21:15
John Gartside
He's a bit, he believes in Americans sort of reliance almost too much. And he should actually look at the role of Europe. Anyway,
00:21:23
Dejan
Yeah, I think generally the administration has been a bit ignorant because there was this press conference with Caroline Leavitt, the press secretary.
00:21:33
Dejan
And she was replying to some French politician in the European parliament who made the statement. And her sort of response was, you should be thanking us because if we didn't come in in 1945, you would still be speaking German.
00:21:51
Dejan
And that just shows the sort of complete ignorance because if the French didn't come in, come in in the US in the 18th century, the US would probably still be a colony.
00:21:58
John Gartside
yeah
00:22:02
John Gartside
still be calling it yeah that is right yeah
00:22:03
Dejan
So, know, I just wanted to ask you before we end, what do you think about this sort bust up between Trump and Gavin Newsom recently on Twitter and other social media platforms?
Gavin Newsom's Political Ambitions
00:22:15
John Gartside
Yeah, I mean, we we haven't covered it on the podcast, but obviously there were these l LA riots over immigration. And I've always found Gavin Newsom an interesting figure, actually, because he's a fellow competitor of us, Dan, actually, because he does have a podcast, Gavin Newsom.
00:22:29
Dejan
Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:30
John Gartside
But he's an interesting political figure because he almost encompasses the two parties.
00:22:34
Dejan
Yeah.
00:22:36
John Gartside
I saw something recently about a Republican who voted for Trump saying that they'd actually vote for Newsom
00:22:43
John Gartside
if Newsom was president. Or they voted for Newsom, I think it was, in the gubernatorial elections. So I don't want to say too much of an opinion on it, but I do think Gavin Newsom in himself...
00:22:55
John Gartside
He is the governor of California, the world's seventh largest economy in itself. I do think he's a fairly formidable figure. And I think if Trump does lose the the support Gavin Newsom, he's only going to further stoke this fire of discontent that lies in California.
00:23:13
John Gartside
And it only goes to
00:23:20
Dejan
days.
00:23:20
Dejan
I mean, you look at some of his posts and it is a bit childish, but at the same time, it does appeal... to a section of society that requires a bit more show bit more scandal a bit more flamboyancy you know Gavin Newsom telling uh Tim Tim Holman Trump's borders are come get me tough end quote or telling a governor of another state stick to football bro
00:23:42
John Gartside
sure Yeah. God, yeah.
00:23:50
John Gartside
Yeah, I mean, American politics, Twitter interactions could literally never happen in the UK. ah Yeah, Yeah, they're just totally alien to us. Yeah.
00:24:01
Dejan
I do think he's playing incredibly well because this sort of notion of the spectacular, a bit of a show, giving the people a bit of a show, is exactly what Trump does. And Newsom has taken this to another level.
00:24:13
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:24:16
Dejan
I think he's preparing for a presidential run. I'm going call it now, a a couple of years early.
00:24:20
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:24:22
Dejan
But I think he's preparing for a presidential run.
00:24:24
John Gartside
And I think actually he would have a strong case if he can sort of keep an upwards trajectory. Anyways, thank you everyone for listening to the episode. Please do give us a five star review. Go follow the podcast, like us wherever you listen and also check out our social media.
00:24:40
John Gartside
That's probably the best way to stay updated with what is going on in the podcast.
00:24:48
Dejan
Thank you very much and see you next week.
00:24:50
John Gartside
See then.