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Voice of the Mountains: My Ice Axe May Be Your Paintbrush with guest Jimmy Chin
5.5k Plays17 days ago
Most of us will never reach the pinnacle of our most passionate pursuit, no matter how driven we are. Our guest today has, through dedication, creativity and ingenuity, reached the pinnacle of three of his passions.
Beginning with a unique journey to discover climbing and skiing, then the discovery of an interest in photography, which finally led to becoming a premiere feature and documentary filmmaker, Jimmy Chin has forged his path with resilience, empathy, and a desire to tell important stories.
Jimmy’s accolades and accomplishments speak volumes about a climber and artist who has pushed boundaries and silenced doubters. But it has always been the manner with which Jimmy has achieved that is most impressive. Steve and Jimmy discuss the evolution of his career and the catalyst for picking up a camera in the pursuit of climbing. They dive into the moral qualms Jimmy had shooting Free Solo and how and why he decided to create the award-winning documentary. Tune in for a conversation between two legends of the sport.
Check out the companion essay and more information on Voice of the Mountains here:
https://uphillathlete.com/voiceofthemountains/
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Transcript
Photography as a Means to Climb
00:00:04
Speaker
The best documentary filmmaker of his generation began not by wanting to tell a story. His aim was simply to be able to dive into more dumpsters and climb more big walls and to be the best climber he could become.
00:00:18
Speaker
For Jimmy Chin, taking pictures started as a means to a rather inglorious end. And he will tell you of his beginning, selling a single photograph for $500, and how that image was a means to perpetuate his life as a dumpster-diving stone monkey in Yosemite Valley. My ice axe may be another man's paintbrush.
00:00:40
Speaker
And mountain sports are indeed sports. And the starry night is a painting. Yet climbing is a sport, and yes, Van Gogh left us with a painting. But what we do in the mountains on the daily and over a lifetime is an expression of creation. The paintbrush, the ice axe, and the film camera are creative tools. And they are more. They are means to an end.
00:01:10
Speaker
but what means and to what end.
Life Choices and Universe Forces
00:01:15
Speaker
One of the puzzles of life is how one goes from a dumpster diving climber to winning an Oscar. How did you go from where you came from to where you walked today? And how much of it is the choices you made? And how much of it is a mysterious, sometimes cruel, sometimes benevolent gift from the universe?
00:01:37
Speaker
When Jimmy tells us that composition always made sense to him, that he'd hold the camera to his eye and see the frame, how does that apply to your life, to mine? How do you see your frame and how can that put you on the not so proverbial red carpet of your life? That is a puzzle we're trying to un-puzzle because we all know there's far more to seeing a frame than holding a viewfinder to your eye.
00:02:04
Speaker
You have to be able to see images woven into a tapestry that will capture an audience and transport them deep into the minds of the subjects of your creation. To do that, you have to know what is real. But how do you know what is real? How does Jimmy Chin know what is real?
00:02:23
Speaker
climbing, skiing, running, these are all a continual exercise in failure and futility. They are a steaming, hot, heaping portion of humble pie served up every time you lace up your boots and go big.
00:02:37
Speaker
Think about it. We purposely pick things we cannot do and then we go try our hardest to do them and we almost always fail anyways. And we go home, get more information, train more, pack lighter, whatever, until one day you can do it. Because at some point along the way, you became the person that could do it.
00:02:57
Speaker
Mountain Sports teach us that. Mountain Sports teach us to dream big, to set goals, to just go for it and to fail. And as Jimmy tells it, he has a lot of bad photographs. Starting, trying, doing, whether in the editing room or in the mountainside, the creative act of doing is what unleashes a flood of experience that can teach us to understand what is real and what is not.
00:03:22
Speaker
Creating is so difficult, and yet creating is what allows us to understand life in a way that nothing else can. There is a lot more to swinging an ice axe than aligning your thumb vertically along the broadside of the shaft. And mountains, whether under a pair of Hoka running shoes or La Sportiva mountain boots, teach us what is real, what is not, what is badass, and what is easy, what is cake, and what is frosting.
00:03:50
Speaker
It has been part of our mission with Voice of the Mountains to celebrate the diverse bounty that mountains bring into our lives. Grit, toughness, and determination are the seeds that sprout merit, self-determination, and success.
00:04:06
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And the means can serve the purpose. The means certainly determine the priority, and the priority determines where we spend the energy. And the energy we have in this life is certainly, in my opinion, our most valuable asset. I think we can all agree that if Jimmy hadn't needed that 500 bucks to live another month in Yosemite Valley, we would all be poorer for it.
00:04:31
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He just wanted to be a better climber. That weighs on Jimmy constantly.
Climbing and Filmmaking Journey
00:04:35
Speaker
How to be a better climber, even now, 25 years later. He thinks about that and how to stay authentic and how to peel back layers of meaning and story and resources and boil them all down to extract the essence of human experience into film, into creation, and into one more good day of climbing.
00:05:02
Speaker
From uphill athlete, I am founder and CEO, Steve House, and this is Voice of the Mountains, where we explore the philosophy and humanity of mountain sports. This is where we ask ourselves who we are, what we learn, and who we want to become as a result of these adventures. This is Voice of the Mountains. Most of us will never reach the pinnacle of our most passionate pursuit, no matter how driven we are. Our guests today, through dedication, creativity, ingenuity,
00:05:30
Speaker
has reached the pinnacle of three of his passions, beginning with a unique journey to discover climbing and skiing, and then the discovery of an interest in photography through that. And finally, becoming a premiere feature and documentary filmmaker, Jimmy Chan has forged his path with resilience, empathy, and a desire to tell important stories.
00:05:53
Speaker
As a climber, Jimmy has led expeditions to the Karakoram in Pakistan and has done numerous first ascents around the world. As a skier, Jimmy, along with others, became the first and I think only person to ski down the south pillar route on the Loti face of Everest. Jimmy's award-winning photography has appeared in National Geographic, Vanity Fair, and Outside, among many other publications. His first book of photography, Theorem Back, was a 2021 New York Times bestseller.
00:06:23
Speaker
Alongside his wife and co-director, Elizabeth Chai Vassarelli, Jimmy won an Academy Award for their documentary's free solo, which, as most of us here know, chronicled Alex Honnold's harrowing pursuit to become the first person to free solo El Cap.
00:06:38
Speaker
The critically acclaimed film had the highest-grossing opening weekend for a documentary film in history. Jimmy's accolades and accomplishments speak volumes about a climber and artist who has pushed boundaries and silenced doubters. But it has always been the manner with which Jimmy has achieved this that has impressed me most. His charismatic but humble, ambitious but knows that a path without shortcuts is the most rewarding one.
00:07:06
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He has become an icon but never forgets all of the people who aided and influenced his journey. I can say without any hyperbole that he is one of the adventure sports true originals. I am honored that he has taken the time to join Voice of the Mountains. Welcome, Jimmy. Oh, man. You're making me blush. But yes, thank you for that very kind introduction.
00:07:30
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Yeah, it's heartfelt. Do you remember the first time we met probably around 2000, 2001 or so? I was trying to remember yeah when it was. I forgot until this very moment. Oh God, I used to know the name of the hotel is a little ah side hotel in Skardu.
00:07:53
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Yeah. Um, God, I can't remember it now either. What is that place? scott we I stayed there every time. It was like, uh, the Indus hotel, the Indus hotel. yes yeah It was the Indus hotel. And, um,
00:08:09
Speaker
I was there with Brady Robinson. I forgot that's where we met. And pretty fitting, right? Like that's where you want to meet climbers or someplace like that. And you guys were heading. Did you guys go into the Charcoosa that year? Do you remember what year it was? We were heading into the Charcoosa. Yeah.
Early Climbing Connections
00:08:27
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And I believe you guys were going for G4.
00:08:32
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ah We went to G4 in 1999. It was 1999. Was it 1999? Yeah. You were with... Yeah, Steve Swenson, Andy de Klerk and Charlie Mace. yeah And I remember thinking, oh, there's the big boy team. We're like the little groms and we're going to go out and try to climb some little pinnacle and these guys are going to climb something really big and burly. Well, you probably climbed something. We didn't get too far. But one of the things I remember for that trip, we were dedicated. We spent 89 days at base camp. ah We hit the whole season up there. We were so emaciated and destroyed at the end of that. That's still my personal record for the longest time without a bath. That is incredible. And I don't need to ever beat that record, by the way. Hope I never do.
00:09:28
Speaker
There was another time we met, I think it was a couple of years later, and I think it was at the Patagonia Service Center Warehouse up in Truckee. Remember that? I do. In preparation for this, I went back and rewatched to Meru and Free Solo and listened to some of your podcasts with other hosts and stuff. and ah particularly with Meru, it really reminded me that, you know, I distinctly remember this feeling like that you, you, you sort of opened the door to some collaboration. And if I have one regret, it's that I never took you up on that. And i I take responsibility for that because I really felt at the time that it wasn't possible. Like that alpinism was sort of like, you know, the like quantum physics, like if you observed it, it would change it.
00:10:21
Speaker
And right particularly with Meru, like, you know, you showed that that doesn't have to, of course, can be like that, but you showed ah a path to to doing that. And now that I'm, you know, my early fifties, I look back at all those stories that we sort of you know, lived and missed and you know didn't get to tell that are hard to tell without a powerful storyteller like who you are. So I just wanted to kind of put a pin in that because I think that it it comes back to a lot of the the topics I want to talk about today. And our theme for today is ah ah' a little quote and it said that I wrote. We are not to be blamed for thinking our undertakings are beautiful and grand, for they are.
00:11:08
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my ice axe may be your paintbrush. And you started out as first a skier and then a climber and sort of learning the art of the ice axe, if you will. And then along the way, you picked up the paintbrush of a camera. And this is a path that other climbers have taken, picking up various paint brushes, cameras, pens, lecterns, different things.
00:11:30
Speaker
You know, do you have a story of how that came to be that sort of dawned on you that the mountains were a canvas for you beyond climbing and skiing? You know, it started out as something very practical. And there's this story that I've told before, and you've probably heard Brady Robinson, who was my climbing partner and mentor in a lot of ways, had picked up a camera and wanted to be a photographer.
00:12:00
Speaker
And he showed me how to use his camera. And I took one photo with it. And i um when at the end of the month, when he had taken all his photos, he he submitted it to a bunch of places to see if he could sell some of his photos. And he only sold one photo. And it happened to be my photo. And he was so pissed.
00:12:23
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but but
00:12:26
Speaker
So Brady sold the photo for $500 and, you know, I'm a total dirtbag climber. Um, I was literally like dumpster diving. I remember with like Brady and some of the other monkeys in the Valley. And I remember thinking as like a 20 year old would think, man, I only have to take one photo a month and I can live like this forever.
00:12:54
Speaker
And there was no idea of being a visual storyteller or any of these things. I was just naive. And I thought, well, how hard could it be to become a professional photographer? Like, this is great. You can make money just taking photos of like your friends. And It certainly evolved from there, yeah but that was the beginning. It was very practical dirt bag you know rationale. Was it the photographer or was it the subject and the rich subject matter that was all around you every day? It was the idea that, I mean, this this goes to show, I mean, in a lot of ways, it still holds true to a certain degree. Like, what do I need to do to be able to keep climbing?
00:13:41
Speaker
yeah And that part's still true. I still, you know, it's like all of this is a means to being able to spend the time with the people who I respect and admire that inspire me and to be able to go into the mountains or to go climbing and have those experiences that really I feel enrich my life, that give my life meaning and purpose. like I still wake up in the morning and if I get to go climbing that day, I still wake up in the morning and I'm still as excited as I was when I was 19 or 20. And that feeling has inspired all the rest of it. You know, what I have gotten out of climbing and the relationships I've gotten out of climbing and the experiences and the feelings
00:14:40
Speaker
um and understanding what's real and not real and understanding, you know, life in a way that nothing else has ever shown me or taught me. So in a way that 20 year old rationale for how am I going to keep climbing I'm happy that it's still true for me. and And it has provided all of the the rest of the inspiration. So, you know, I was hanging out at that time, it was like Dean Potter and Timmy O'Neill and Conrad Kevin Thaw and I think the human brothers were around and Sennett and Ogden and
00:15:30
Speaker
you know, I can list Jose Pariah, Ammon McMeany, Leah Holding, Hichona, like, it was just such a cast of characters that were constantly blowing my mind, you know, in what they were doing. I also realized I was like, you know what,
00:15:52
Speaker
I don't think I'm ever going to like, those guys are at on another level. And if I want to keep hanging, I got to figure out something useful to do. um So again, it was very pragmatic. And photography really did come to me quite easily. And I attribute it to, um I think that we always had these like amazing Chinese paintings in my house, landscape paintings.
00:16:20
Speaker
and composition always made sense to me. Like I brought the viewfinder up to my eye, I'd look through the camera and I would see the frame and that that came to me and I had a sense that this this was something that that I could do and so I started shooting and you know this is about the time when a lot of these guys were gaining some notoriety. And there were sponsors that needed photos and magazines that needed photos of these guys. And they were
Goals and Mentorship in Photography
00:16:54
Speaker
my friends. And so I could move in the mountains and I could i could move around on El Cap. I had my systems dialed. I was pretty efficient. And they knew I wasn't a liability. So they could trust me to go up there and shoot with them. And that kind of became my role.
00:17:15
Speaker
And I was the guy that they would call and someone needed photos. I had bought a camera with that $500 and I started shooting a lot. But something did happen, which was that a lot of my friends were really inspiring to me and I did feel compelled to tell their stories because I was like, this is incredible. And no one even knows that they're doing this up there. Do they do people even have an idea of how hard it is to do what they're doing and how good they are? And I did feel really compelled to tell their stories and to show, share
00:17:57
Speaker
what they were doing and and that is something that's always stuck with me in terms of like what I look for when I'm shooting something because it comes from a very authentic place and in a lot of ways like you know as a climber as you know you can't not do it And I got to that place with photography where I couldn't not do it because I was seeing images everywhere all the time. And I was going on these adventures and the light would turn a certain way and um we would be in these just outrageous wild places. You know, that that's when the mountains became a canvas for me. And the people that I was with really inspired me to shoot.
00:18:50
Speaker
And that's the kind of the beginning of the evolution. And I really fell in love with photography. I fell in love with coming back with these little treasures, you know? And then I started to set my sights on, you know, like a climber does, you're like, okay, I want to climb El Cap or I want to climb that mountain. I was like, okay, well, I want to be a National Geographic photographer. What's what's it going to take to to be able to do that? And eventually ending up shooting for the geographic and having, just like in the climbing world where you have mentors, I had mentors as um photographers as mentors, and I started to really understand you know visual storytelling and how do you create a tapestry for people to understand a real narrative within um within these images.
00:19:43
Speaker
And just like anything, you know, you become really focused on the craft, but all of those, you know, becoming a photographer and eventually becoming a filmmaker, the basis of how I approached them all came from climbing. You know, I always think about climbing as this exercise and failure, right? Where you, you pick things that you don't know that you're able to do or that you don't even think you can do, but you throw yourself at it and you take all the necessary steps and you fail and you come back and try to be better, stronger,
00:20:26
Speaker
um get your systems more dialed, get more information, and you try and drag in until you succeed. And that that mentality really is kind of the basis of how I approached photography. And it really allowed me to dream big.
00:20:48
Speaker
Because a lot of those early expeditions seemed so outrageous and unlikely
00:20:58
Speaker
And I pulled off a couple of climbs. And I was like, OK, this is how you do it. I don't know any other way to do it. So like I never studied photography, and I certainly never studied filmmaking. But I went into it being like, OK, you got to set some goals. You got to go for it. And you will certainly fail many, many times along the way.
00:21:22
Speaker
i mean have a lot of bad photographs that i've taken you know ah There's a quote of parallel, you know, i I've heard like, from other sports, you know, I've looked at other sports, it's like, you know, Roger Federer has said like, well, you know, tennis is an exercise in failure, because you lose approximately 50% of all the serves. It's like, yeah, that sounds pretty good to me, like losing only 50%. If I could have only lost 50% of the time that I went climbing, that would have been it would have been the most successful climber in history by a long shot. people's climbers have grit. You know, this is one of the themes that I've noticed with mountain athletes. And this is exactly the reason I want to have these kinds of conversations is because I think there's so much richness in the mountain sports. And I'm going to I'm going to throw skiing and mountain climbing and rock climbing and ice climbing and and trail running all into that. that yeah you know there's It just takes a tremendous amount of grit and part of it is because there is no like material reward really. you know It's very rarely like do people make it as a professional climber.
00:22:34
Speaker
yeah Yeah, and yeah, exactly. You said something to me one time. You were like, I just want to become the best climber I can be. And I was like, oh, wait, that's my mission statement. Like, how did you steal my, mission you know, and then like you said, it was practical. Like, oh, I need to fund another month in the valley. So I need to sell one picture. Right. Like it's a that's like the immediate step in the goal of just trying to become a better climber. Like I need five hundred dollars to live. That kind of thing. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm still trying to be the best climber. Every day. Yeah. I'm shredded because I, I mean, yesterday where'd you go I'm getting, I just went to this little Craig in Idaho and Teton Canyon.
00:23:23
Speaker
Yeah. Great little granite Craig. And I haven't been really doing a ton of granite climbing. I haven't been doing a ton of climbing. Actually, I climbed the Hulk twice in the last few weeks, which was great as well. um But yeah, it's still like, you know, my best days in the last couple of months have been getting to go up on the Hulk. And God, that place is amazing. But yeah, I would say that climbing is still very
00:23:58
Speaker
much a part of my life. And in fact, as I get older, I recognize how important it is, and and why it's still so important to me. You know, like I said, it's it taught me so much. And it's taught me also, I think something really important, which is something that you touched on earlier,
00:24:22
Speaker
was this idea of you know when you when you talk about climbing as being like quantum physics, if you look at it, something changes. And and that idea of purity is something that I came up with, not that I came up with, but it was something that i was pounded into me. you know and I'm not just saying this because you're you have me on a podcast. But authenticity was so important to me. And working with like Dean, he was just like really intense on authenticity as well. But like Conrad, that community is about authenticity, right?
00:25:16
Speaker
Because you're you're taught what's real and what's not real. You're taught what's actually badass and what's quite a bit softer. But like for for a non-climber, it's hard to discern between like what's real and what's not real in the climbing world and the style in which things. and You know, that weighs on me constantly in everything that I do because of people like you, you know, and that idea of style and like Yvon Chouinard, right?
Authenticity in Storytelling
00:25:57
Speaker
and Classic. Yeah. My biggest hero to date. Yeah.
00:26:01
Speaker
And my biggest hero too, which is why I literally went and made a movie about it because I was like that community, that group of people, that is the real deal. And you know, you've got all these people in the world, big egos, finance, CEOs, whatever. And you're like, yeah, well, you want to know what's real? Check this guy out. Yeah. This is real. Totally. Doug Tompkins, that's real. Christine Tompkins has to be on that list too, right? Rick Ridgway. Not real. I check up Rick Ridgway and Chris Tompkins and Yvonne Chinard. And what I wanted to say is that like the amount of focus I put on authenticity in the storytelling is the North Star for me when I'm making a film.
00:26:52
Speaker
And when I made Meru and when I made Free Solo, I would think, what would Steve House think? What would Yvon Chouinard think? you You guys were like the filter in which I was like, you know, what about that? No, that's too much, dude. that that that' They're going to look at that and call fucking BS. You know, it's ah it was like, you, Yvonne, crack hour. I'm like, who's going to call me on that shop? And I would literally be like, sit there and I'd think,
00:27:27
Speaker
No, that's gotta go. It's too much. like In what way? Give me an example. Paint a picture for the listeners. Well, because, you know, if you're making a film, it's the same as in climbing as in architecture and many other genres of professions or work where simple is actually the hardest. Yeah.
00:27:54
Speaker
and people who editors or studio heads, they always want to overdramatize. No, no, you got to keep that in there. It's dramatic. but it's And writing, the same thing, right? It's like, oh, you can write and embellish and use all kinds of you know flair to to try to write something that's really simple. And if anybody who knows what's going on is going to be like, that's a bunch of, that's just
00:28:25
Speaker
I can't even read it. It doesn't pass the sniff test, the authenticity test. It doesn't pass the test. I can't think of anything specific right now, but it's like, okay, just tell it as it is and keep it simple and clear.
00:28:47
Speaker
And people will get it because it's going to be authentic. You don't need to blow it out of the water and try to pound something into people um because you're, well, usually if afraid that you're not good enough of a filmmaker to get the point across and you have to trust in yourself and the story to be able to do that. And I just had a conversation with ah a very amazing architect named Tom Kundig And he was saying the same thing. He's like, in architecture, it's the same for me. My philosophy is like the cleanest, the simplest. And same with Yvonne, you know, design philosophy, the simplest, the cleanest. But it's the hardest to achieve, actually, you know, and leo because you're distilling, you're not embellishing, you're pulling it down to the essence. ah And that is how
00:29:46
Speaker
we make films. and And that was a sensibility that I love and appreciate and respect about my wife, Chai. This sheet is brutal in the edit room. it's just you you don't need it and we will literally trim and trim and trim and if it works without it we didn't need it and we call it killing your babies right like it's a favorite shot that i spent two weeks trying to get and she's like yeah it's a nice shot but we don't need it doesn't move the story forward
00:30:19
Speaker
Nope. And it hits the editing room floor and I, you know, it's a little painful, but I get it because it's all for the, you know, to serve this idea of like authenticity and simplicity. And, you know, again, whether it's design or writing or filmmaking,
00:30:41
Speaker
It's the hardest to achieve. I first heard this phrase, killing the babies from Alison Osias, who was an editor at Rock and Ice magazine at the time, 30 years ago. And I had some paragraphs in there and she's like, nope, you got to kill the babies. I was like, what? What are you talking like? I was like, kind of recoil there. So I use that phrase to in my in my writing not my you know, not my filmmaking But yeah, that's it's it's such a thing it is so it is amazing how much emotional attachment you get to those Those things that you feel so attached to one of the themes that has come up repeatedly in this series is this idea of the difference between the things you should not be doing and the things you cannot do the cannot representing like the the impossible the should not
00:31:29
Speaker
are often much more powerful. They're sort of, it could be, I don't know if it's your parents speaking, or sometimes it's the patriarchy speaking, sometimes it could be all these things. And they cannot always have this romantic beckoning, like, well, they say it's impossible, but maybe I'm the one, right? Like, i could if I just apply myself, but they should not imply as a social price.
00:31:52
Speaker
And you've, I think, faced some should nots in your own development as a climber. And the stories I've heard about how you stuck to your you know climbing spirit, you know despite it not being well understood by your by your folks. And that's interesting. But this is where I think like the free solo movie was so good. because and And I just need to say this to you because I never told you. like I couldn't watch it for the longest time because I was like morally Not sure if it was okay. like Even though I knew the outcome, I was just like, I don't know. you know and And then I heard you in an interview where you discussed that conversation you had with Krakauer about like whether or not you should do it. Because you had the same reservations about whether or not you should even be filming him. And then I was like, oh, okay. Yeah, I get it. They thought that through and that that stands up. And then I went and watched it. But I think one of the reasons, and and it's amazing, And one of the reasons I think it's so amazing is because it combines something that's impossible, like for sure nobody can do that. And also it's like, and nobody should do that.
00:32:54
Speaker
it's that's just like why, you know, nobody understands why Alex, or frankly, anyone would um whatever want to do that and then make a film about the the nexus of all of that. And so that's such a powerful story. I want to hear your insights on our thoughts about should
Ethics of Filming 'Free Solo'
00:33:14
Speaker
not. We should definitely talk about it because this is a conversation I would love to have with you. I had an incredibly conflicted
00:33:25
Speaker
period when the film was financed. And the way it came about was that we made Meru, it was, you know, but a pretty successful theatrical release, and a bunch of studios are like, what are you going to make next? And I was talking to a producer, I had all these different ideas, and we were about to hang up. And he said, any other ideas? And I just was like,
00:33:52
Speaker
Well, I have one other idea. And I didn't even want to say it out loud. And I just assumed it would blow over. And I said, I have this friend, Alex Honnold. He's an incredible free soloist. And right then and there, he was like, that's the movie. And I was like, oh, shit. I shouldn't even have said it. The thing is, is that I had worked with so many incredible athletes by that time.
00:34:21
Speaker
And I had started spending some time with Alex and, you know, Kevin Thaw and Marcson and Connor, and I took him on his first international expedition. And I got to see what he was capable of and also who he was as a human being. And I had just never seen or experienced anything like it. And I knew he was.
00:34:48
Speaker
special and different in all of these different ways. it's like He's an intersection of like all these unique attributes that you know make it possible for him to free solo El Cap. So I was conflicted from the beginning I was like, oh, whatever, we'll we'll pitch pitch this stuff and hopefully no one will ever pick it up. I i went to NetGeo and I kind of got sandbagged. They were like, oh, why don't you come in and meet with the president of NetGeo? And I was there for a photographer summit thing, so I was going anyways. And I was like, sure, I'll stop by and say hi. And I showed up at the office.
00:35:29
Speaker
And all of a sudden I got brought in the room with a woman named Courtney Monroe, who'd run HBO for 10 years. um It was like the executive team were all sitting there. And I was like, whoa, what's this about? And they were like, what's the next film you're gonna make? And I was like, well, we've been, you know, playing with this idea of making a film about Alex Hanall, the free soloist. And classic.
00:36:00
Speaker
When you're not pitching, it's a catnip for these executives because I wasn't pitching and they were like, we're going to finance that movie.
00:36:12
Speaker
And we didn't have a budget. We didn't we didn't nothing. They were just like, we're going to finance it. I was like, got to be kidding me. And I had ah a major studio telling me that they were going to finance this movie. And I literally went back to China and said, you know what? I can't make that movie. And at the time, Alex had already done all these incredible free solos. All of his friends were kind of thinking like, well, if you look at his progression of what he's doing, El Cap is basically the next thing. yeah And it was one of those things that none of us talked about it because we were afraid to even put it into the ether.
00:36:59
Speaker
but yeah I remember having this conversation in the Black Canyon with Hayden Kennedy one day, like just talking about this exact thing because he'd just come back from the valley climbing with Alex and we were just talking about like what he's going to do. We couldn't even talk about it.
00:37:14
Speaker
Yeah, cha try like, well, let me meet with Alex and let me just see if there's any, you know, I want I need to like, at least meet him. And so Alex was in New York. I wasn't there. Alex ended up spending an evening and then staying over at our apartment in New York. And she had a conversation with him. And the next day I called her and I said, So how'd your time with Alex go? What do you think? And she's like, Oh, you know what? He told me.
00:37:45
Speaker
He wants to solo El Cap, which is perfect because it's like this perfect goal. And we can kind of like film him as he tries to achieve this goal. I almost dropped the phone. I was like, absolutely like he had told Chai, who is a non-climber and knows nothing about climbing. And of course, she was like, yeah, that sounds great. And I was like, first of all, mortified and then pissed because I was like, of all the people, he's never said that to anybody. Like no one, if he had said it to any of ah my friends or our friends or mutual friends, they would have been like, dude, he said it. He said he wants a solo outcome. He hadn't mentioned it to anybody. And then he tells my wife and I was like, no way. And that's when I i was like, I i told Chad we're not making that move.
00:38:38
Speaker
So wait what what you what's the story? Is Chai just that person that can get anybody anything out of anybody? Does she just like charm it out of him? or what yes Pretty much. Okay. Well, no, she's very direct. She asks exactly what's in her mind and people I think are just unprepared and they just blurred out the actual truth.
00:39:01
Speaker
I love that. It's terrible for me. um And she could read your mind as well. so And she can read your mind and she's brilliant. And she's, yeah, um she's absolutely brilliant, which is like tough when she's brilliant all the time. But that's when I spent a few months kind of pondering and being like, um I don't think I can handle making that movie. And is this even okay to make this movie? yeah Because what if, you know, making a film about Alex causes him to die? Yeah. You know, of course.
00:39:38
Speaker
And I was like, I can't live with that. And that's when I had that conversation with John. And I still remember walking down the street with him and I i didn't even want to ask him. And I finally worked up the courage to ask John and be like, well, cause I think he asked me, he's like, well, what are you thinking about next? And I finally like worked up the courage. I was like, well, this is what we're thinking. This is, this is kind of out there and and and it's a green lit film.
00:40:06
Speaker
And then, like any great mentor, he didn't tell me the answer. He just asked more questions and had me answer my own questions, which was, well, is he going to do it anyways? And I said, well, yeah, he is. And he said, well, is there someone else you think that's better suited to to to make the movie? And I was thinking about it. and just because of my relationship with him and having shot with him a lot and understanding him and being an actual climber. I was like, well, probably not. You know, I think, and I think I'm pretty well suited to do it. And then he asked me, well, do you trust him? And I paused, but it didn't take long for me to have that answer. And I was like, yeah, I do. He's the most calculated.
00:40:59
Speaker
and thorough and detail-oriented climber I'd ever met that was able to compartmentalize fear in a way that I'd never even thought was a man, like never even thought was possible. And I knew that he didn't take shortcuts and that he was going to be incredibly thorough about how he was going to approach this. um And I had a sense of how he'd done it because I seen him prep for other solos before. And so then I had to figure out how to do it. And I thought deeply about it. And I realized the only way we could make the film is if our intention wasn't focused on making the film.
00:41:58
Speaker
that our intention would be to support Alex as his friends and that the film was secondary and that that in that way I could feel good about pursuing the project because now we were able to basically support him. And I mean, we fixed lines. I mean, we hauled loads like it accelerated his there's no doubt in my mind it accelerated the process by years.
00:42:31
Speaker
because we were with him all the time and fixing lines and hauling lines and working with him on the route. And he would ask Mikey Schaefer, what do you think? Should I go this way or that way? And Mikey would be like, well, but watching you climb both those things, you look way more solid. He was getting like objective feedback. And yeah and it would it became a project that was really focused on on Alex and his group of friends. And the other part about that that was like very meaningful was just that we all wanted him to succeed. you know We were like, this is an incredible, incredible achievement and pursuit and the purity of free solo. I mean, just all these things that you know you had to admire and respect
00:43:29
Speaker
And it became something for all of us. And so when we had our first meeting with the production crew, I laid that out. I said, look, this is the intention we're setting is this. And also because if that's not our intention and he falls, we'll never be able to live with ourselves. I said it straight up. like We're there to support him.
00:43:53
Speaker
And the filming is secondary. And the other part that was really important to me was that I'm also an athlete. I get it. Like we have to be there to preserve his experience. If our filmmaking becomes something that changes his experience in the moment for what he wants to do, then the whole, then then we fucking blew it.
00:44:15
Speaker
And so that was the intention. And we wanted to preserve his experience. And, you know, like Mikey Schaefer, of course, he got it. He's like, OK, I can sign up for that. Yeah, I can sign up and and throw myself at this thing if this is the way we're going to do it. um Some of the other guys, you know, younger and just psyched, they were just like, OK, but, you know, Mikey's, Mikey's was really important to me.
00:44:44
Speaker
And Mike is someone that I respect deeply and is one of my best friends. um And so that's how we went for it. yeah And um it meant that we had to be super dialed and that we had to run the tightest show possible and that, you know, Alex should never have to wait for us. We always had to be there early. And if he was ready, we were, we'd already been ready for half an hour. Yeah.
00:45:14
Speaker
You know, like that is the way that so we ran the tightest ship possible. um And that was the standard and the expectation that we set. And that's what we did. And that's the thing that I'm proudest of about the whole film, the whole production was that we pulled it off in good style.
00:45:36
Speaker
You know, it goes back to your comments about authenticity and, you know, I mean, Mikey is such a, there's an authentic guy. I've also been on a couple of expeditions with Mikey and I've talked to him about all of this. yeah And, you know, if you go back to my professor heroes, like the Shinars, I mean, and I want to include Melinda in that too. Yvonne ivone gets all the spotlight, but Melinda is just as much a part of everything that they've accomplished together.
00:46:02
Speaker
They didn't set out to build a billion-dollar company, for example. like That was never their goal. That was a result of them just being authentic to their values time and time and time and time again, even when it made no sense to anyone else.
00:46:19
Speaker
And then you extrapolate that over whatever it's been since they started Patagonia. I mean, it must be from when they started at 1970 or something like that. So 50 years. like and And that's just like, again, like we were talking about each one of those decisions is like a little step in the right direction. And what you were doing was you were living by you know your authenticity, your North Star, as you put it, and then supporting Alex and then that sort of enabled you know actually and and made made something and then you got of course the film was amazing but that was like I can see how that was secondary and that seems like so often the case the story of the film is also like a story of you should not and you
00:47:06
Speaker
And it'd be impossible anyway, like just the logistics. Like I know what that's like running those logistics. I mean, not on that scale. I just know enough to be able to appreciate it. And I can't imagine like that compared to some of the commercial shoots I've been involved with over the years where the budgets are just insane and there's like craft service and all kind of helicopters flying everywhere and it's like they're burning millions of dollars a day and you guys were just like a bunch of climbers just like fixing road like going you know light and fast like you knew to the meter how much rope you needed for each position you had it all on lockdown and nobody else could do that yeah that was an impossible well thing
00:47:52
Speaker
Mikey was the general. I was like, okay, yeah, you know how many lines we have the classic thing those when we would go and like rig everything because Alex was like I'm gonna go climb there tomorrow and then we'd like spend all night rigging and then they' come I'll come back down he'd be like Actually, I'm going over to the rostrum and we just smile and be like, okay No problem like and he'd walk out the door, I'd pull up the radio and he'd be like, okay, we're going to the rostrum. And he would just be like, I'm that scramble and everything like ripping out lines and like moving all the gear because it was literally like we never wanted him to feel pressure in any way one
Legacy of Authenticity
00:48:38
Speaker
way or the other. It was just like, he needs to live his life. We're here to cover it. Yeah. Yeah. um So you're just authentic to those values all the time. I think ultimately that's what people
00:48:49
Speaker
experienced is like the climbing and all that stuff was unbelievable. But I think what really pushed that film over the top is I think people um felt that it was who authentic. It was true. You know, it's true to the spirit of what actually happened. Yeah. And you can't, well, you can't fake authenticity. You can't act authenticity.
00:49:13
Speaker
you know, and I think that, you know, humans that were storytellers, right, as I don't have to tell you this, and what I love about all of your stories is that I've heard you tell is there's the basic premise of move storytelling is black and white, good or evil, them, us kind of duality, and your stories are not framed in those terms. Your stories are framed in the terms of like authentic human experience. And sometimes it's messy. you know And sometimes it's beautiful. and But it's real. That's what I think that the mountain sports in general, as opposed to stick and ball sports, have to tell teach the world. So I'm just so grateful that you are out there telling these stories the way they really are. And we're not sort of being
00:50:03
Speaker
held back by this sort of, I guess, old school black and white thinking that, you know, we can say that still plagues us in much of society, but this is something that how mountain sports and the stories you're telling can move us forward, in my opinion. Well, thank you. I hope so. That's still still the North Star for me. And, you know, I'm grateful i'm I'm in the position to be able to tell these stories. I think stories are one of the most powerful tools you have because you can change somebody's point of view. And that's, that's really powerful. Um, and I, I try to use that responsibly, um, as authentically as possible. So that's still, still trying, still trying to perfect the craft, you know? Yeah. How do you want to be remembered to me?
00:50:58
Speaker
I want to be remembered as I mean the films and the photographs are one thing but like I guess we're maybe overusing the word but like that I stayed authentic and that I kept it real and I think about that all the time and You know, if my children remember me as being that, then I'm, I won. I'm happy. And you, you know, you, especially like in the film world and Hollywood and stuff, and in a lot of different worlds, it's like, you know, while we gravitate to those types of people. And I think, I hope to, to be remembered in that way.
00:51:42
Speaker
I'm sure you will be. this I mean, it's like you it's you're going to be remembered. We're remembered for our actions, not our words, right? We're remembered by how we make people feel, not what exactly we said. it's like that's That's what people carry on. and Authenticity is a feeling as much as as much as it is a perspective. You can't describe the attributes. you know it's like It's that thing that's kind of hard to describe, but yeah.
00:52:12
Speaker
Well, thanks so much for your time today. I really appreciate that ah that you that you came on here to to talk to us. Voice of the Mountains means a lot. I hope we get a chance to carry on these conversations in person sometime. And where can our audience connect with you? What's the best way to to follow your work, keep track of the new films you have coming out?
00:52:37
Speaker
It's funny because like I have this Instagram account but I don't do social media because I literally can't handle it so i I'll be transparent and someone else does that post for me but that is kind of where I do some updates on on films that are coming out or other things. That's probably the the best place but A lot of these films have communications and PR teams that are out there, so usually in the press and and the trade magazines for films, but that's probably the best way to find out what's coming out. And we we do have several films coming out this next year. and Anything you can tell us about?
00:53:24
Speaker
This will come out November 1st, by the way. This will launch this will air November 1st. Yeah. Not long after that, we have a film called Endurance, where they, you know, a couple of years ago, they had an expedition that went and found the the but actual endurance down in the Weddle Sea. And we use it as an opportunity to retell the Shackleton story from a 2025 perspective, and also really to kind of introduce that story to a whole new generation and that idea of leadership and grit and camaraderie that we felt like it was was worth putting out in the world right now. Yeah, such an incredible story. What great leadership actually looks like ah is kind of meaningful to me right now. so
00:54:20
Speaker
That's going to be coming out next and and a few others and we can talk about it offline. Okay. Yeah. so Appreciate it. Well, thanks so much. Yeah. No, thank you. Thank you for being such a great role model for me and someone that I've always looked up to and respected. And like I said, I have a, I have a Steve house filter for my phone.
00:54:45
Speaker
um' that's That's nice as anything anyone said to me in a while. That's good. I liked it. I like to hear that I had some influence on I consider you the younger generation, even though you're not that much younger. but Yeah, so much respect to you. and So much respect for you, Jimmy. Thanks for doing the work you do.
00:55:07
Speaker
Voice of the Mountains is a production of Uphill Athlete Incorporated. Our producer is Alyssa Clark. Sound engineering and editing is done by Christoph Lucaser. Voice of the Mountains is scripted and hosted by me, Steve House, with research and writing help from Jamie Lyko. Thank you for listening to Voice of the Mountains.