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Spider-Man 3
206 Plays3 years ago
Anthony Desiato of the Digging For Kryptonite podcast is the guest in this episode to discuss the much-maligned Spider-Man 3. Though it's got definite issues, both he and Perry have found aspects of it that turned out better than expected in retrospect. Especially when the slightly altered Editor's Cut is taken into consideration.
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Transcript
Alliance Against Spider-Man
00:00:21
Speaker
End of the light, Spider-Man. I want him dead too, Flint. That's why I've been looking for you. Oh yeah, I know all about you. Like the fact that Spider-Man won't let you help your poor daughter? It's just, that doesn't seem right to me.
00:00:45
Speaker
Look, I want to kill the spider. You want to kill the spider. Together, he doesn't stand a chance. Interested.
Podcast Introduction
00:01:07
Speaker
Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. I'm your host Perry Constantine. And last year we had Bernie Gershmeyer, who was one of my old teacher on the show to talk about All-Star Superman. And the reason I decided to have him on the show was because he posted on Facebook about being on another show.
00:01:24
Speaker
called Digging for Kryptonite. And after he told me about that, I started listening to the show and I became kind of addicted to it. And the host of that, I reached out to him and got him to come on this show. And that's Anthony Desiado. Anthony, how are you doing today?
Diverse Superhero Film Perspectives
00:01:39
Speaker
I'm doing well. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited.
00:01:42
Speaker
Thanks for coming on. I love listening to your show. I've just been listening to the, you're doing the Donner series right now and that's been really cool to listen to. One of the cool things about your show is I'm listening to you and most of the time I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. I agree, I agree. And then you get to talking about Snyder and I'm just like, what?
00:02:05
Speaker
That's I think that's the beautiful thing about it for me as the host is that we don't always agree. The guests and I don't always agree. The audience and I don't always agree, but I like to think. And for the most part, the interactions I've had with people online.
00:02:21
Speaker
support this that you know we're all still coming at it from a place of of love of the character and respect for each other and that's been my experience and it's been great and i mean to be honest it's i appreciate it when someone has a different perspective because it might you know might change the way i look at something there are things that i've come to enjoy more because of what someone else has brought to it so
00:02:44
Speaker
It's all good. We don't always have to agree. And especially with a character like Superman, who's been around for over 80 years, so many different interpretations. They're not all going to work for everybody. And we we always bring so much of our, you know, personal history and experiences to these things. And that informs the way we take them in and the opinions that we form about them. So it's all good. Like, it's so fun to have these conversations.
Reevaluating Smallville and Man of Steel
00:03:10
Speaker
You've actually gotten me to take a look back at some other stuff. Hearing you talk about Smallville all the time, which I loved in the first few seasons, and then I kind of started hate watching after a certain point. But listening to your show, it's maybe go back and revisit, especially those early seasons. I'm not sure what I'm going to do once we get to the point when Rosenbaum leaves.
00:03:33
Speaker
But those early seasons were great. And also I revisited, in fact, the episode that's coming out before this one, we revisited Man of Steel. And I was able to enjoy it a lot more, even though I still found it very, very frustrating. Although some other stuff, like I had always said on this show, most of the movies that we've covered on this show, almost a hundred episodes in are movies that
00:03:59
Speaker
I find a lot of things I like about them, the only exceptions, one of the exceptions being steel. So that was one where we just could not find a whole lot in there.
00:04:15
Speaker
I can't even say I came around on the steel movie because I don't think I ever had that much of an opinion on it other than I watched it as a kid and kind of wrote it off. But when we covered it on digging for kryptonite last year, I had to tell you, man, I had so much fun with that movie. You know, would I hold it up as one of the all time greats? No, but I do think it's better than it gets credit for. I had fun watching it for whatever that.
00:04:37
Speaker
I will say that we had a lot of fun covering it. Like that was a fun episode to do. And I think that's probably the beauty of a movie like Steel is that you can have fun talking about it more than anything else. And that's kind of a nice little segue into what we're talking about today.
Superhero Film Trilogies
00:04:52
Speaker
Because when I asked you to be on the show, you didn't pick a Superman movie. You picked a Spider-Man movie. And just serendipitously, this has been the string of episodes where guests are choosing movies that Perry is not very big on.
00:05:07
Speaker
So we got Iron Man three, we did a few episodes ago, then we did Man of Steel last episode. We're doing Spiderman three today. Um, the next episode is going to be the justice league of America pilot. So just like all these, all right in the countdown to the big 100, we're doing end game. It's all these movies that I don't really care a whole lot about. Well, I appreciate you being such a good sport and, and covering things, even if you don't have that much affection for it.
00:05:33
Speaker
Well, it's been interesting. Like I found, I came around on certain parts of Iron Man 3 and Man of Steel. So I think it'll be interesting to hear where the conversation goes about Spider-Man 3 because this is a movie that, this is the weird thing about Spider-Man 3 is that there are
00:05:54
Speaker
aspects of this movie I like, but the aspects of the movie I like are things that almost everybody else universally despises. And then other things that people like about this movie are things that I don't really like.
00:06:08
Speaker
Oh, very interesting. Yeah. I'm excited to to dive into it with you. And it's funny.
Love for Superman and Spider-Man
00:06:13
Speaker
You're right. I did not pick a Superman movie. I mean, I cover Superman all the time. So I figure this is a fun opportunity to do something a little different. And my heart is always with Superman and with the DC universe generally. But I love Spider-Man and Spider-Man is my favorite Marvel character and one of my favorite comic book characters in general. So, you know, I really welcome the opportunity to talk Spider-Man and
00:06:35
Speaker
As far as this movie, I had been thinking about Spider-Man 3 a bit recently, I think with all of the excitement for No Way Home and all of that business, it sort of got me thinking about the Sam Raimi, Tobey Maguire movies again in a way that I hadn't been in for a while. And with three in particular, I just started to wonder if it had been misjudged. And maybe that's informed in part by what I'm doing on the Superman show, right? I'm going back to all these things and finding
00:07:04
Speaker
things that maybe I didn't appreciate the first time and so I was sort of thinking about it and you know of course I've seen all the bully McGuire memes and everything that are out there and I just started to wonder like did I write this movie off did we write this movie off unfairly and
Spider-Man 3 Editor's Cut Rewatch
00:07:21
Speaker
I rewatched it, of course, in advance of this. And I gotta tell you, I think we did misjudge it. I really, I had a major turnaround on this movie. And I watched, I did not, I apologize, I didn't give you a heads up about this, but I watched a different version of the movie. I watched the editor's cut. Oh, I was reading about this last night after I saw the movie again.
00:07:43
Speaker
I had always wanted to watch it. It was always on my radar and I never got around to it. I've watched the theatrical cut multiple times. I'm very familiar with it. And the editor's cut is not vastly different. This is not a justice league theatrical versus Zack Snyder's justice. It's not that it's not vastly different. It's actually a couple of minutes shorter and they reorder some scenes and there are other minor differences, but it's solved and we can get into this as we move forward, but it's solved two of the major issues that I had with the movie. So it's, I definitely look at it as an improvement.
00:08:13
Speaker
And for anyone who's even remotely open to going back to this movie in any form, I really do recommend the editor's cut.
00:08:20
Speaker
It is really amazing how just these small little edits can completely change your opinion on a movie. And of course you have the more drastically different versions like, you know, like you mentioned Snyder's Justice League versus the Justice League or my go-to has always been the Ben Affleck Daredevil where the theatrical cut is really kind of a mess but the director's cut is actually for the most part pretty solid.
00:08:48
Speaker
Um, yes.
Impact of Director's Cuts
00:08:50
Speaker
Uh, that's also, but they also added like 30 minutes of extra footage in that. Um, but even those small changes, like just reordering the scenes or, I mean, you look at something like the, the, the de-specialized editions of the, of the Star Wars trilogy and which, you know, going back and rewatching that and comparing it to like the.
00:09:11
Speaker
the special edition of, especially New Hope, I think, you know, you really, you really kind of see how just those small little changes in a New Hope made it to be a better movie. But yeah, this, before we get into the movie, because I heard you talk about on the show, on your show a few times, how you're a Spider-Man fan. So one of the things I like to talk about, talk, ask people, especially when they're new guests, is how did you end up getting into this character, into Spider-Man?
90s Comics and Spider-Man Fandom
00:09:37
Speaker
So it was the one, two punch, I think of comics and film. So the comics came first for me. And my entry point is one that I hold near and dear to me, but it's not a very revered piece of Spider-Man history, but it's the nineties clone saga. Oh yeah.
00:09:55
Speaker
That's what got me into the character. And it was just, you know, I had been a comic book fan and reader. I was buying the Superman books. And I think I picked up the Spider-Man issue and that was kind of it. And it was, as I recall, it was towards the end. It was the very end of the clone saga. For anyone not familiar, this ran for two years across four
00:10:17
Speaker
monthly Spider-Man book. So it was a significant number of issues all told. And I jumped in at the end, but was very intrigued by it. And I was just the right age. I mean, it was mid 90s. So I was, you know, eight or nine, you know, it was perfect for me. And so I actually went back through back issues and I picked up the entire clone saga and and that was it. And I read ever since. I mean, I although it's crazy to say this because I realized recently I haven't read regularly since one more day.
00:10:47
Speaker
Which in my mind is like a few years ago. It is weird when you think about that and realize how much time has come past. I'm doing- It's the issues of Amazing Spider-Man have passed. I'm doing another, I do another podcast where we talk about Grant Morrison's X-Men run. And it's crazy to me to think that when we started that podcast, it's the 20th anniversary of when that run started coming out.
00:11:14
Speaker
Yeah, it's bonkers for sure. So it's been a little while since I read Spider-Man regularly and consistently, but the clone sock is what got me into it. And then really though, the Sam Raimi movies, I think it's fair to say that really solidified my fandom of the character and there too.
00:11:30
Speaker
is the right age for it and I mean I remember watching the first one when I was in elementary school the second one was high school and the third one was college so you know it covered a very formative span for me and you know I've been a fan of the 90s animated series that was huge for me too yeah
00:11:46
Speaker
I loved the spectacular Spider-Man cartoon that only ran for a couple of seasons, but that's so, so good. Such an underrated gem, I think. So again, there are sort of a few tent poles within my Spider-Man fandom, but the Clone Saga and the Raimi movies and that that 90s animated series on Fox. I think those were definitely the ones that really made me a Spider-Man fan.
00:12:08
Speaker
Yeah, the 90 series was my was my gateway as well. It's funny you talk about the clone saga because I've got us, not with the clone saga but I got a similar experience
The Clone Saga's Reception
00:12:18
Speaker
because I started out in comics as an x men fan, and I also came in.
00:12:23
Speaker
in an ignoble period in a lot of fans' minds, which was the mid-90s, which a lot of people write that era off as like the worst of the X-Men. And it's like the most continuity, dense, self-referential, you know, navel-gazing part of the history. And there's a lot of truth to that, but you know, I still, that's what got me hooked when I was a kid at the time. So it's hard to
00:12:47
Speaker
Um, it's hard to judge it too harshly in retrospect because of that. Uh, although I did, because now they have these massive collections of the clone saga. I'm not sure if you've seen these, uh, it's like four or five volume set. And I had bought, I bought the whole set on Comixology. I had a year or two ago and one of their big sales they were having and.
00:13:10
Speaker
All in one, when you read it all in one, it's not so bad. There's definitely parts where it drags, but I think the biggest problem is, and there's a really great web series called Life of Riley where they go through the whole history of this. And you can kind of see what was happening behind the scenes and how the guys in marketing will kind of force them to drag the story out a whole lot longer than they intended it to be.
00:13:37
Speaker
But if you're reading that month to month, I imagine it must have been really frustrating the entire time. But if you're reading it all in one set, it's not so bad. It's actually pretty decent.
00:13:48
Speaker
That's sort of the conclusion that that I came to as well with the clone saga, where I benefited from coming in at the end and knowing that spoiler alert. Peter Parker is the one true Spider-Man by the end of that story. But yes, I can imagine if you're reading that month to month and you're being jerked around as to whether Peter or Ben is the real person versus the clone.
00:14:09
Speaker
and not knowing when this is going to end or how it's going to shake out. And you constantly feel like you're having the rug pulled out from under you. And yes, to your point, this was never meant to be a two year saga. And that's what it ended up being. And but again, if you are reading it, knowing that going, it makes a huge, huge difference. So for anyone who read it at the time and is like, what are these guys talking about? It's like, I do get it. I really can't appreciate it. But, you know, knowing where where it ends and being able to sort of have that context and that mindset going in, it helped a lot.
00:14:37
Speaker
And we got Ben Riley out of it, who I've always loved anyway. And I'm just, I'm at the end of Nick Spencer's run now. I got the last book of that. And then I get to jump into when Ben Riley became Spider-Man again in the current comics. So I'm looking forward to, to see, I know it's only, I know it was only a temporary thing, but I'm looking forward to seeing him as Spider-Man again. Cause I loved when they brought him, well, I mean, Peter David did a Scarlet Spider series a few years back that was okay, but it wasn't quite the Ben Riley that, that I, that I remember that I was a fan of.
00:15:09
Speaker
I hear you. I'll be honest, even though I have a lot of affection for Ben Riley, I never read that Peter David series. And like I said, as far as Spider-Man generally, I've been out of the loop for a while on a lot of the current comics, as much as I do follow, like I know the broad strokes of what's happened in the book.
00:15:24
Speaker
over the years, but yeah, I haven't read in a long time, but the fact that Ben Riley is back is definitely good reason to try to catch up. It's good. Yeah. The first trait of him is it's on sale of comicsology right now. I just bought it last night because I noticed that.
The Trilogy Curse on Spider-Man 3
00:15:39
Speaker
But so, yeah, Spider-Man three. This is a movie that had, you know, everybody was anticipating this movie because Spider-Man two at the time was like the pinnacle of superhero movies.
00:15:53
Speaker
you know, I think the only real competitor you had for it at that time was X2. And me being an X-Men fan, I think it probably vacillate between which one I like more, but, and then Spider-Man 3, this, just like the X-Men trilogy, just like a lot of superhero trilogies, or a lot of trilogies in general, this suffered from the trilogy curse, where first one's really good, the second one's amazing, pun intended, and then the third one kind of crashes and burns.
00:16:23
Speaker
I remember going to see Spider-Man 3. Like I said, I was in college. I think it was towards the end of my junior year, if I'm remembering correctly. No, wait, this is 2007, right? Yeah. No, I think it was, might've been 2006, 2000. I know it was, it was, it was before I came to Japan. I know that. And I came to Japan in 2008. I want to say it was seven. Anyway, so I'm in college and I remember going to see it on the, on opening night, the midnight release.
00:16:50
Speaker
And I remember sitting there in the theater in White Plains, New York with my buddy from the comic shop. And I remember just that sinking feeling as I was watching it, because like you said, I mean, the first one was really solid. I enjoyed it a lot. The second one, you know, I've not re-watched Spider-Man 2 in a little while, but based on what I remember of it, I would still hold it up there as one of my favorite all-time comic book movies.
00:17:13
Speaker
So expectations were high going into the third one. And I remember the sinking feeling as I was watching it and it was not living up to what I wanted it to be or what I thought it would be. And I remember people groaning at emo Peter dancing down the street. I remember people in the theater laughing every time Peter cried when Harry dies, when Mary Jane breaks up with him and he cries and audiences laughing. And I, and.
00:17:37
Speaker
Were there moments where I might have been part of that myself? Probably. But I just remember it was such a disheartening feeling to love the character and to love this version of it and this franchise so much. And and to just see that reaction, because it's just like, oh, this was clearly not what they what they wanted to elicit. Right. So, you know, I came away from that. And in most of these years since, up until right now,
00:18:02
Speaker
you know, whenever I've talked about it, it's always been in kind of a, a dismissive way. And I've, I've shared in a lot of the criticisms that people have had about it. And I always, it always kind of made me sad that this, that the series ended on that note. So going into this rewatch, that was kind of my mindset. Um, and I think a lot of people had kind of turned around on it in years past because of
Spider-Man 3's Character Dynamics
00:18:26
Speaker
the Amazing Spider-Man series, because a lot of people, which also now people have turned around on the Amazing Spider-Man series. So it's interesting how time does that to these things. But rewatching it, I had a lot of the same opinions, I think probably went through a lot of the same things that you went through and other people went through, is at the time I'm just like, it's really disappointing. And I tried to like it so much, but there are just
00:18:52
Speaker
One of the big things is it's just there's way too much stuff going on in this movie. I mean, you've got you've got Sandman, you've got, you know, Venom, you've got Harry as the New Goblin or whatever he's calling himself. And it's just you're trying to cram in all of that and Peter going through with the alien costume.
00:19:11
Speaker
And then the whole MJ, Gwen Stacy love triangle. And it's just, there's way too much story in one movie. And it just, and the stories is those different elements do not connect very well.
00:19:25
Speaker
I so I mostly still agree with that, even though I have a lot more affection for the movie now, I can't dispute that generally. Although it's funny, as I was watching it, I was thinking exactly that I'm like, man, this is a busy movie. But part of me was like, you know what, I kind of appreciate it. There's not a dull moment. There's always on. So I kind of was okay with that. But your point is well taken. I will say the criticism that remains for me is that
00:19:53
Speaker
it would have been great and hindsight's 2020 in all fairness, but it would have been great, especially since we had two prior movies. If some of these characters and elements had been introduced or even teased, like in the prior movie, if Dr. Conner, if we had quick scene of Dr. Conner's introducing Peter to his lab partner, Gwen Stacy. So at least now we know she's in this world. The symbiote, I mean, is the biggest example where the prior movie had John Jamis and the astronaut
00:20:20
Speaker
if there had been any more, even just a throwaway line, like, oh, Jamison brought this thing back from the moon. There's your, you know, there's your in, as opposed to, you know, this meteor conveniently landing silently right next to Peter. Yeah. That's what everyone thought going into this movie. Cause whoa, we had John Jamison in the last movie. They talked about him playing football on the moon. So obviously he's going to be bringing back the symbiote with him. And it's just, I don't know why you don't go with that. It's just such an,
00:20:49
Speaker
It's such an, I don't know, me as a writer, I'm just, that's such an obvious link to make. I don't know why you wouldn't do it. You don't even have to bring back John Jameson at all. Yeah, I know. And look, and we know, you know, Sam Raimi has talked about this famously, right? He didn't want to include Venom, but Avi Arad really pushed him to do that. And rather than jettison Sandman and the rest that he was planning, he just decided to do it all. And the conventional wisdom is that the movie suffered for it. Maybe that, maybe that's part of why
00:21:19
Speaker
we got Venom the way we did and the symbiote in particular, the way it landed like that, it was just sort of like, all right, you want it? Here it is. But yeah, especially when they had- Literally just throwing it into the movie. Exactly. But yeah, I know that the mechanism was in place where they could have done it more organically. So even with my turnaround on them, I do still wish that things had been sort of seeded a little bit more
Sandman's Development
00:21:45
Speaker
Um, in the prior movies and, and, you know, it wouldn't have felt like so much. Thrown in here, you know, the very notion that uncle Ben wasn't actually killed by the killer. We, we suspected all along anything like, you know, if any of these pieces had sort of been a tease before, I think that might've helped cut down on this, like this overload of, of new in this.
00:22:08
Speaker
Yeah, I think especially Thomas Hayden Church got really robbed in this movie because his that opening with him is is flip Marco, you know.
00:22:17
Speaker
It is his escape going back to his home. And then, I mean, I really, maybe it's because I'm a young father myself, but like I saw, I really felt sympathized with his character in those moments. And I've talked about this before, rewatching these movies after you become a father, you start to look at aspects in different ways. Like the example I always talk about is Amazing Spider-Man, where when,
00:22:45
Speaker
George Stacy is dying and he tells Peter to stay away from Gwen. Before you become a father, you're like, come on, man, why are you putting that on Peter? But after you become a father, you're like, you know, I kind of see his point.
00:22:57
Speaker
As you know, I mean, I talk about this all the time on digging for kryptonite. It's like being a dad as a fellow young father myself. It's like it really has shifted my perspective on so much. And especially in the Superman realm where we deal with Jor-El and Jonathan and now Clark himself as a father. I look at so much of this in a vastly different way. And in virtually every instance, I mean, it's really enhanced my enjoyment and the emotion that elicits in me from being a dad.
00:23:25
Speaker
Yeah, and I think, especially cause I found out reading the trivia on this that the little girl who Jameson buys the camera from is actually Sam Raimi's daughter. So you got to imagine him being a father too. That's definitely playing into how he's portraying Flint Marco in this. And it's just, it's such a crime because we see so much potential in that character, in that storyline. And then he just becomes a giant sand monster in the end to make way for Venom.
00:23:55
Speaker
And that was my biggest, I think that in retrospect, that's my biggest disappointment with this movie is just that unrealized potential of the Sandman story. I hear you. And I think others share that and would echo the same about Venom as well. And I'm sure we'll get into that. But I think a lot of people came away from this feeling like those two villains really got shortchanged.
00:24:20
Speaker
Again, I can't really dispute that, but watching rewatching it now and maybe it was the editor's cut. I don't know. But I really came away from this at looking at it more as this was really Peter M.J.
Main Characters in Spider-Man 3
00:24:34
Speaker
and Harry's story. And Sandman and Venom had very specific functions to serve, but it wasn't wasn't like Spider-Man 2, where where Doc Ock really drove so much of it and had a larger part to play and was more
00:24:47
Speaker
about, and the dynamic between Peter and Otto and all of that. So again, I do think it's fair to say that Sandman and Venom were short changed, but at the same time, I think
00:25:00
Speaker
In the context of this story, it worked. They really were supporting players as opposed to the main villains, the way I think we typically think of them. Yeah. Yeah, they did serve those purposes well. And talking about Venom, because this is probably the biggest criticism people have of this movie, is Venom. And I got to say, I actually kind of like Topher Grace in this movie. I like that he's this. Instead of, you know, I know he's not Eddie Brock from the comics. That's another thing.
00:25:28
Speaker
I kind of like that he's literally Dark Peter, whereas Peter's this geeky photographer. Topher Grace is this smarmy conniving photographer instead. I kind of dug that, honestly. I'm with you 100%. Now, in fairness, I'm not a huge Venom guy. I like the character well enough, but I don't have that much invested in Venom.
00:25:58
Speaker
The fact that this was not the traditional depiction of Eddie Brock and even the visual representation of Venom himself didn't match the size and ferocity of the comics or anything. That didn't bother me.
00:26:10
Speaker
And I really think that in the context of this movie and this series, this version of Eddie Brock worked. Yeah. To your point, he is like the anti Peter Parker. He represents the worst, the worst qualities and aspects of Peter.
Reevaluating Eddie Brock
00:26:24
Speaker
And in a movie where Peter's dealing with that darkness within himself, it's personified in the character of Eddie Brock. And yeah.
00:26:30
Speaker
It works. Also, I am a big Topher Grace fan. So that went a long way for me too. But yeah, I really, I think people were unfairly harsh on this version. No, it's not the traditional comic book version, but in this context, man,
00:26:47
Speaker
He works. I think it works. And I, yeah, I mean, I like, I wish they would have done some sort of voice modulation when he's wearing the venom, the venom mask or something, like have someone else come in, because it sounds, it sounds weird to have him speaking in his normal Topher Grace voice when he's got the venom head on. But other than that, I thought he did a really good job. And I kind of like
00:27:13
Speaker
I kind of dug the design of Venom like it was much more of the, I know people now associate Venom with the long tongue and you know, but
00:27:22
Speaker
You go back to his early appearance when Todd McFarline first started drawing him, there was no tongue at all. It was very similar to what they did in this movie. So I kind of dug the design, although the nails were a little bit weird. It looked kind of like he's wearing bugles on his fingers. But other than that, I like the design. I like that they brought in the
00:27:43
Speaker
the black Spider-Man, the white spider symbol on his chest. I liked that they did that for Venom. I wish they would have done that for this costume. Toby wears, but we can talk about that too. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now that's a fair point as opposed to the all black. But yeah, again, I get why people were put off by this interpretation of Venom. I think it probably
00:28:10
Speaker
The movie didn't do itself any favors, I think, by going in a different direction with Eddie and having a toned down Venom. I think if we had this version of Eddie Brock, but when he became Venom, it was the version that we have in the movies now, the Tom Hardy movie.
00:28:28
Speaker
maybe that would have appeased people a little bit more, but I think it was probably that combination of Eddie Brock didn't line up with expectations. And then I think for a lot of people, the visual depiction of Venom was lacking. And so I think the two of those together kind of worked against it. But again, I think it worked for what it needed to be in this story.
00:28:51
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I'm totally fine with Venom, although one of the things to do about this movie, and you can't put this movie down too much for it, because that was early 2000.
CGI in Spider-Man 3
00:29:02
Speaker
Some of the CGI work is kind of janky in retrospect. And that was the best they had at the time, so I understand that. Although Sandman still looks great, I'll say that.
00:29:14
Speaker
Yeah, you know, it was funny. And my wife watched this with me and she had watched, she had seen it when it came out years ago, but she didn't really remember it. So she was really coming at this with fresh eyes. And I think we were both sort of on the, of the opinion that, you know, it visually, it holds up really well. I mean, this is 15 years old, you know, but it really holds up. Well, yes, there are some definitely some kind of wonky, but you know, all in all, I think it holds up pretty well from a, from a visual effects standpoint. At the time, I remember being really upset that
00:29:43
Speaker
Topher Grace kept taking off the Venom mask, but rewatching it last night and seeing when he does speak in the Venom mask, I understand why they did that now. Yeah, yeah, I know. I think that's fair. And look, with all these movies, masks are always there, you know, the masks. Yeah, you can't fault that, but my favorite example of that is in the first Avengers movie when the Chitauri alien conveniently pulls off Captain America's mask so we could see Chris Evans face.
00:30:11
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. But one of the things I thought really holds up well though is even though him as a person, he's a monster, but James Franco's performance, I think he's just having so much fun playing the bad guy in this.
00:30:26
Speaker
Look, when the waitress asks him how the pie is. I love that scene. So good. It's so so good. I want to say this because I know I had alluded to this before and I don't want to forget because it's sort of a big point about the editor's cut and what made such a big difference for me taking in this movie as a whole.
00:30:46
Speaker
The editor's cut most notably reorders the portion of the movie after Peter has the black suit. So basically like the whole portion of the movie dealing with Peter's bad behavior. So enacting his revenge on Eddie Brock and Harry and Mary Jane, uh, all of that. It reorders some of those scenes a little bit and.
00:31:10
Speaker
It might be it adds a couple of little pieces, but the takeaway was that it became a lot clearer to me in the editor's cut that Peter was repeatedly taking
00:31:19
Speaker
the cost of the black costume off and then making the conscious active choice to choose to put it back on when he was going through a tough time. So this whole like venom as a drug metaphor. And I know that's what they were going for. And I think that they are in the theatrical cut. But in the editor's cut, it was just clearer to me. I felt like they reinforce that a lot better.
00:31:40
Speaker
And I feel like there were more, unless I'm totally imagining this, but I feel like there were at least one or two additional moments of him going to that closet and taking it out. And it just, like I said, it was just a lot clearer that he was taking it off and then putting it back on when he was having a tough time. Cause he was longing for that power that it brought him. So it just worked so much better for me.
00:32:01
Speaker
I think you're having, not having seen it, I'm only going on speculation, but I only really remember one or two moments in the theatrical cut when they clearly make a point of showing that he's taken out of the closet again. So I think you're right. I think that the editor's cut did add in a few extra moments or maybe recycled some moments or whatever it was. And yeah, that would probably have made it look a little bit more obvious, although
00:32:27
Speaker
I think we should talk about the dark PD of it all. So this is an interesting aspect of the symbiote, because this actually, as I recall, this actually wasn't in the comics, the whole thing about the symbiote corrupting him. It was just more, you know, it's trying to take him over. But it didn't, that really came, I think, from the animated series. That's the one where they really did that with the costume is influencing him. And it's funny watching it there, because the,
00:32:57
Speaker
I think part of the reason is just Tobey Maguire can't really do dark as an actor. It just seems weird whenever he tries to do it. And although when we get the, I gotta say the dance scene is ridiculous, but I still think it's fun.
00:33:16
Speaker
Yeah. So, you know, this was one of those things that I know a lot of people hate about it. Although, like I said, those bully McGuire memes and everything, I feel like there's, there's been a resurgence. My favorite one is the, the Joker for Joaquin Phoenix's Joker and, and dark PD dancing. Yeah. No, that's great.
00:33:36
Speaker
I think that, again, in the context of this story, you know, Peter's a dork. So the idea that that would be his version of being cool or dark or a bad boy or whatever that tracks. And it is funny.
00:33:54
Speaker
The hair is probably one thing that I would have changed. I probably would have changed that, but I get, you know, they wanted to have a very clear visual representation, a very easy visual cue for the audience.
Intentional Humor in Dark Scenes
00:34:08
Speaker
Like, oh, he's, you know, bad now. And again, especially in the editor's cut, where it's, it's clearer when he has the black suit on or not. I think maybe that, you know, maybe you need a little bit more of that visual represent. I'm not sure, but.
00:34:22
Speaker
But I don't know, all in all, I just think that, yeah, it tracks with what this guy would do, what he would think cool would be.
00:34:33
Speaker
It was very off-putting the first time I watched it, but now I've come to terms with it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't mind it as much at all. Like it is kind of fun. And to your point, it does make sense that, you know, him being such a dorky guy, this would be like his version of being a dark guy. And also too, I love that Sam Raimi
00:34:53
Speaker
kind of acknowledges that it's ridiculous right he's like when Peter's dancing down the street and he's doing the finger guns and everyone like all the women around him are like what the hell is this guy doing i'm glad you brought that up because i feel like maybe that gets a little bit lost in the shuffle sometimes when people talk about this because it's yeah it's not like people are receiving this well you know people are having a similar reaction that i guess people did in the theater but that's the point
00:35:18
Speaker
Except for the only one who does seem to have a positive reaction to it are Betty Brandt, oddly enough, which I thought was weird because she's totally dismissive of Eddie Brock. And then when Peter's acting like Eddie, she's like, oh, Peter. Although I gotta say, I love seeing Elizabeth Banks in these movies in retrospect, after seeing the kind of career she's had since then. It's kind of funny to see this is where she started out.
00:35:43
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I agree with you, but I think maybe we can chalk this up to that. She has a soft spot for Peter to begin with. So and, you know, he's showing her more of an interest. Right. They did before. So maybe maybe maybe we can we can attribute it to that. And you could probably make a similar argument with Gwen. I mean, we don't get a ton of Peter and Gwen.
00:36:04
Speaker
But, you know, the scene where she, you know, uh, runs into Peter and Mary Jane at the restaurant and she, you know, she's got her hand on his shoulder and everything, which of course, you know, Mary Jane Cox, but I don't know. You get the sense that there's some, some level of affection there too. So, you know, when, when Peter, you know, takes her out to the jazz club, it's like, I don't know. I kind of buy that she, you know, uh, would, would go along with that.
00:36:28
Speaker
One thing I did like about the jazz club scene is it it's one of those scenes that it's it's fun in the moment it's fun to watch but when you think about it in the larger context of the story it's really weird because it's like okay so the costume apparently turns him into a jazz pianist and a skilled dancer too. But one of the things I did really like about that scene is
00:36:49
Speaker
Gwen realizes why he's doing it and she apologizes to MJ. I thought that was a really nice thing to throw in there instead of just, because I think the way this movie is written and how underwritten Gwen's role is, you could easily turn Gwen into the bad guy in that scene. And I like that they had that moment where she realizes and she gets angry at Peter and she apologizes to MJ.
00:37:16
Speaker
I love that too. I thought that was great for her character. You know, it's funny because you look at Emma Stone's Gwen in the Amazing Spider-Man movies or Zendaya in the current movies and the, you know, thankfully we've come a long way in terms of the depiction of female characters and their strength and their integrity and their agency in the story.
00:37:38
Speaker
Unfortunately, you know, for Kirsten Dunst, like her Mary Jane, like that was often a thankless role. And there was some stuff there. And I don't think she would be written that way now. So when you have a moment like like that, like with Gwen, I agree. And for Gwen in particular, because you're right, she does not have much to do in this movie. So I really appreciated that a lot. You know, it's funny, because the other thing, too, with the emo Peter
00:38:03
Speaker
I'm going to sort of argue against myself because I made a case for it, but I'll argue against it a little bit. The moments where Peter is shoving Eddie Brock up against the photo in the Daily Bugle and when he attacks Harry and calls him little goblin junior, those are some dark moments for the character.
00:38:23
Speaker
And I feel like playing, you know, emo Peter on the street for such laughs, maybe underminded a little bit, you know, might've undercut what they, what the effect might've been in terms of charting Peter's descent and the darkness that's coming out. So, you know, in fairness, that's one instance where the editors cut, maybe they could have
00:38:49
Speaker
taking that down a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. I'll say, I will say that. No. Yeah. I think that's a really good point. And it, it kind of feels like rabie was trying to do two things at once. It feels like at one time, at one point he was trying to take the alien symbiote story seriously. When he's got those moments of Peter being really dark, like that
00:39:10
Speaker
Like that, when he throws the goblin, the pumpkin bomb back at Harry, that's a dark moment. That's a pretty chilly moment in that. And I thought Toby played it really well in that scene, or also when he shoves Brock against the photo. But at the same time, it feels like he's also trying to parody the idea of this storyline in those other scenes. So it's this weird mix that, like a lot of things in this movie, that those two things don't quite fit together.
00:39:40
Speaker
Yes, and I think that's, I do think that's fair. But what I love, what I love about this dark Peter storyline overall, and especially those scenes with Eddie and Harry, it's that it's not like the black suit is making Peter commit crimes or hear something like so wildly out of character. This is a guy who traditionally is kind of walked all over and now he's standing up for himself. And the thing is,
00:40:09
Speaker
You know, he's not wrong. Like any Brock, you know, you know, fake this photo. Harry tried to kill him, manipulated Mary Jane, you know, has done all this stuff. And so, you know, when Peter fights back, like it's more vicious than you would typically expect for him. And clearly, you know, he's giving into that side of himself. But at the end of the day, it is justified. Yeah. So I think that just it makes it interesting because it's like he is giving into the wrath.
00:40:38
Speaker
He's still ultimately right, but I guess the way he's going about it and the way he's allowing himself to give into that, you know, shows you that he's on this, you know, this, this, this darker path, but.
00:40:49
Speaker
Um, it's interesting, like, and it's, there is something on a visceral level. There's something very satisfying, even though, you know, our character, our character, our hero is not acting the way he quote unquote should. There's something really satisfying when he tells Eddie to get religion or Harry goblin junior, even the beginning of the scene with Harry when Peter's lying on the couch.
00:41:12
Speaker
And he gets up, he's like, I'm going to enjoy this. It's there's something very fulfilling about that. Yeah, I mean, you can't because, you know, when you think about it, especially from Peter's perspective, because this entire time he's been trying to be patient with Harry's like, look, I really did not kill your father. I'm telling you the truth. And and, you know, Harry's just having none of it. He's not. And so finally, you know, even without the black suit, I can understand him finally getting to a point where it's like, you know what? I'm sick of this shit.
00:41:41
Speaker
Yeah. So that's the other major, major, major improvement with the editor's cut. So as we all remember in the theatrical version of the movie, Harry's big change of heart comes when the Butler burner, all of a sudden, all of a sudden decides to share this crucial information that he's kept secret for years. Yeah. Yeah. That Norman did in fact, die by his own hand, by his own goblin glider. It wasn't Spider-Man. And that's what sends Harry off to help.
00:42:11
Speaker
In the editor's cut, that's gone, baby. And in its place, Harry just looks at the shattered photo of Harry, Peter and MJ. And that's his, that's his change of heart. It works so much better because I was thinking about this.
00:42:26
Speaker
You know, in the theatrical cut, I guess the takeaway is that Harry really didn't believe Peter. Right. And so when he gets this confirmation from Bernard, that's enough for him. But in the editor's cut, I mean, I think you can still read it that way. And that probably still tracks, but I kind of more prefer the idea that.
00:42:46
Speaker
you know because it's like how unreasonable or irrational is Harry like I feel like you know is it the case that he literally doesn't believe what Peter is saying or is it that he just still ultimately believes Peter is responsible not that he literally stabbed Norman but that he's responsible and in a sense he's not
00:43:04
Speaker
wrong. Like they did, you know, Norman did die in battle with him. So if it's not that he like, doesn't literally believe Peter, it's more just that he holds Peter responsible, but looking at the photo reminds him of this deep friendship that they have. It's I don't know. I think that's more interesting than if he's just like, no, I don't believe you. Oh, my Butler told me you were right. Okay.
00:43:24
Speaker
No, absolutely. That is, it's an imperfect solution, but it's definitely a preferable solution to the magic Butler scene.
Improving Harry's Arc
00:43:32
Speaker
Although I was reading the trivia that one of the intentions that I guess they didn't, is that they were gonna reveal that actually Bernard was another hallucination, like how he's always hallucinating Norman. It's that Bernard was kind of like his good side, which is, I like what they did in the editor's cut better. I think that works a lot better than
00:43:54
Speaker
than having the Butler come in in any form. Yeah, I think I would have definitely preferred that. Because the Butler scene at the time I hated it, last night I still hated it, and it just does not work. So having that photo there instead would definitely have improved that scene 100 fold. And it just plays way more into this theme of forgiveness, right? Because in that moment, that's what Harry is able to do.
00:44:23
Speaker
That's the thing, it played really nicely where Peter shows up and he's like, she needs us. And then he has the moment with the photo and it's so much more compelling than this exposition from Bernard. Again, I think the problem with that is it's so clunky
00:44:47
Speaker
And, and it really just defies logic because I, everyone has the same question. Like why would you not say something sooner? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, uh, another thing too is I'm watching this. I'm thinking that the, the amnesia portion is, it's kind of.
00:45:07
Speaker
a weird addition in this movie. It doesn't really feel that necessary. I think it actually would have played a lot better if Harry's faking the amnesia or if maybe we don't even have the opening goblin scene and he just tried. And we start off with this reconciliation with Peter and then as it builds up to him and show him a little bit more manipulative, I think it would have played a lot better in context of what we've seen in this character over the past three, the previous two movies as well.
00:45:38
Speaker
You know, that's interesting. That's interesting. I feel like that, that could have worked. I agree. The amnesia bit, look, it has its, its precedence in the comics for sure, but it does feel very soap opera ask. Yeah. Conveniently he remembers only the parts that he needs to forget for the box. I know. I mean, I guess.
00:46:03
Speaker
If you didn't have, I mean, I don't know. I'm just trying to think like looking at the structure of the movie, they have this battle early on. I think you might have to sacrifice that. Yeah. And then play it more like he's just manipulating them. I think I probably would make that sacrifice. I would too. Yeah. I like their their nighttime aerial battle where Peter's in his civilian clothes. I really do like that. But at the same time, yeah, I think you're right. Because if
00:46:31
Speaker
It's like, does he really need to have amnesia? I mean, after that battle, yeah, I guess he kind of does. Otherwise a lot of it, maybe it wouldn't work, but absent that it's like, yeah, he could just pretend that he's forgiven Peter and then he's getting closer to Mary Jane. Yeah. I think that, I think there, you got a
Re-editing Suggestions for Spider-Man 3
00:46:48
Speaker
point there.
00:46:48
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'd be willing to, maybe if not sacrifice it, but re-edit it in a way and put it later in the movie, I think it would have, because that is a good scene, you're right. What did you think of the Harry's Goblin gear, the design he did? Because, I mean, one of the things that kind of, I don't know why I never noticed this before, but, you know, in the opening when we're in his lab, we see the hobgobble mask, right? There was this gold mask there and I'm just like, and part of me,
00:47:16
Speaker
I've long had a problem with the goblin design in the first Spider-Man movie. Like, I think it reminds me of those mascots at Disneyland, but where you can see Norman's face clearly through the mesh of the mask, which I think is why No Way Home just figured, came to the conclusion that, I think most of us did, that Woolop DeFoe's own face is scarier than any mask you could put on him anyway.
00:47:44
Speaker
Yeah, I think they finally nailed it with the no way home mask. You know, like others, I always I was never a huge fan of the Green Goblin costume from the first movie. The one that Harry has is fine. I don't really I don't have such a strong opinion. Like as a comic book fan, I guess I always, you know, would have been excited to see something closer to the comics, either in terms of a Green Goblin design or the Hobgoblin. Like that would have been totally cool as well. So, yeah, I guess.
00:48:15
Speaker
Yeah. At the end of the day, I guess I just sort of feel like why not utilize a design from the comics, unless you're going to come up with something that's a lot better. And I don't think that they did. No, it's, it's, it's like he's basically rocket racer. Yeah. That's what I kept thinking of when I'm rewatching the movie. Cause he's got the, he's got the flying skateboard and everything. Um, and I think, yeah.
00:48:41
Speaker
Yeah, it doesn't quite work for me. I would have liked to see, maybe not, you know, the exact same thing that Norman wore, but at least something that's a little bit more goblin inspired would have been nice. I mean, it's only in there for a short time. And even with the new mask he wears, he takes it off right away and we never see it again too, which I thought was kind of funny. Yeah. Well, of course, again, the mask always has to come off. Mask always has to come off, yeah. Now, the one thing that I think
00:49:09
Speaker
And here's where I think I'm going to piss off a lot of people because the one thing that I really don't like that much in these, and it's not just this movie, it's all three of these movies, is the Peter and MJ relationship never quite works for me in these
Peter and MJ's Relationship
00:49:24
Speaker
movies. It always feels
00:49:26
Speaker
And it's funny, when I watched these movies with my wife, because we had actually watched the Amazing Spider-Man movies first, and then we went back and we watched the Tobey Maguire. Well, actually, we had watched the Tom Holland ones first. And after we had watched, I think it was Far From Home, she wanted to watch the other ones. We watched Amazing Spider-Man, then we went back and we watched the Maguire ones. And after we watched the Maguire ones, I asked her what she thought, and she was like, why is MJ such a bitch? This is what she said.
00:49:56
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, so a few things to unpack here. There was one, the one thing in particular, my wife and I were both, you know, very much against MJ, which was early on in Spider-Man three, she is dealing with the negative theater review.
00:50:13
Speaker
And Peter is trying to offer some advice by relating it to his experience by talking about how he's been vilified in the press. He knows what it's like to read bad things about himself that he knows aren't true, right? That's why he brings it up. He's not bringing it up to make it about himself, but that's how she takes it. And it just, I hate, I hate the way she comes off in that scene. Yeah.
00:50:39
Speaker
There are moments later on, like when they're having their dinner and she's still upset and he starts talking about, oh, what an icon Spider-Man has become. It's like, okay, I get here. Now you're starting to see it's going to his head and she's picking up on that and she's put off fine. That works. Okay. But that initial scene, you know, I know they're trying to ramp up the tension between them, but it just, I hated the way she came off there because it just was like, come on. I felt the same way. Yeah. I felt the exact same way is.
00:51:06
Speaker
In that dinner scene, you're right. I'm totally with MJ there. It's like, when he's talking about what an icon he is, that it's just like, okay, now you're just talking about yourself and you're not even listening to what she's saying. But before that, when he says, look, I've dealt with this as Spider-Man, I know what it's like. And she's like, no, you don't know what it's like. It's like, you had one bad review. He's had J. Jonah Jameson writing editorials and vilifying him in the press for years now. And he's got to supply the pictures.
00:51:35
Speaker
to make money for Jameson to continue smearing him. So he does understand. He is trying to be supportive and helpful in that situation. And I did think that she comes off very bad the first time and the second time Peter comes off very bad.
00:51:53
Speaker
Yes, which I don't know. Maybe that was the point there. You know, they're both sort of, you know, both at fault. But as far as, you know, Mary Jane generally in their relationship, I mean, I could see why, you know, you would, you know, maybe not be so invested in this incarnation of them as a couple, especially. Yeah. It's like when you look at the Peter and Gwen of the Amazing Spider-Man series and the chemistry they have as actors, but also the way they're written, there's there's just.
00:52:22
Speaker
It's much more dynamic and, and again, Gwen has written, I think, you know, in, in a much stronger way than MJ. It's so funny though, going back to smallville, the Peter, Peter and MJ of the rainy movies, really, I see a lot of similarities to Clark and Lana on smallville, where, you know, there's this other girl next door and, you know, really sweet and beautiful. And you know, there are these feelings there.
00:52:51
Speaker
but you don't always know that there's so much more behind it really. Also there's the damsel aspect where I swear like Lotta probably has to have brain damage after all the time. She's got to get on the head in those early seasons. Yeah. And look, and look in these movies, literally all three movies, the bad guy kidnaps Mary Jane. And in fact, that actually wasn't supposed to happen originally in this movie. It was originally supposed to be Gwen that gets kidnapped at the end, which, and, and, um,
00:53:19
Speaker
And MJ was going to be the one who convinces Harry to go and help. And then when they changed it to MJ being in the text like Kirsten Dunst got so pissed off and apparently Sam Raimi actually had to go and apologize to her afterwards. But that would have worked so much better for
00:53:36
Speaker
all that, like it would have given Gwen more to do. It would have made more sense with her relationship with Eddie. It would have had a lot more impact with MJ going to Harry as opposed to the magic butler of it all. And all of that would have played out. I mean, you still have the problem with you got the damsel in distress aspect, but that aside, it would have been a lot stronger for almost all the characters involved.
Damsel in Distress Trope
00:54:00
Speaker
Yes, and it would have avoided the repetition from the prior movies and and it would have given Gwen more to do. Yeah, that would have worked in a lot of ways. You know, when we talk about the the romantic aspect of this and make a sweeping, you know, observation about the the franchise, all three movies, it always disappointed me that it didn't play up the soap opera aspect from the comics with Peter's multiple love interests.
00:54:25
Speaker
You know, again, Betty is there and you just have those couple of little moments here and there and they don't introduce Gwen until the third movie. Like, I wish I wish there had been other love interests for Peter who were viable, you know, and maybe that would have made the the Peter and MJ of it more more interesting or more appealing. I don't know. No, I think they played that. Yeah, because, you know, you go back to those, especially like the the Lee Ditko stuff, like it's all soap opera.
00:54:54
Speaker
It's soap opera with some occasional superheroes mixed in. And I think this is what really kind of...
00:55:01
Speaker
And this is kind of one of the things that I keep coming back to. And I think a lot of the TV shows we've seen in recent years kind of helped drive this point home is that there are some characters that work much better on the big screen. And there are some characters that work much better in a serialized way.
Spider-Man as a TV Series?
00:55:18
Speaker
I think Spider-Man is one of those characters that would really work a lot better in a TV series as opposed to a movie because then you have a lot more time to
00:55:27
Speaker
to play with the soap opera dynamics and these different character relationships because otherwise you're trying to cram all these things together and it's really hard in a movie format to do all these soap opera-esque storytelling that we've come to love about the comics.
00:55:46
Speaker
Yeah, totally. And, you know, going back to that spectacular Spider-Man cartoon, they did that beautifully. I mean, they utilized virtually everyone from the supporting cast. And it was great. I just want just to jump back for a second. When you're talking about the original plan for MJ going to Harry, there's MJ has a line in the trailer that I, unless I'm totally blanking, I don't think is in the movie where she says we all we've all done terrible things to each other.
00:56:12
Speaker
But we have to forgive each other. Was that originally meant to be something she says to Harry? Maybe I'm trying to because it sounds very familiar. And I, I could have started with a trailer. OK, I could have sworn it was in the theatrical cut because it sounds very, very fresh. It's not like something I'm half remembering, but I can't recall exactly. But yeah, that would have that would have worked so good in that. And that in a scene where she convinces Harry to go back. Yeah.
00:56:40
Speaker
Yeah, again, I can't, I can't remember if it was in the actual, it was definitely in the trailer, but no, it is interesting to know what the original plan was. You know, speaking of which, and I know we mentioned Zack Snyder's Justice League. Are you aware there's this movement on Twitter to release the Raimi cut of Spider-Man 3? No, but oh God, how many of these are we going to go through?
00:57:05
Speaker
So there's a Twitter account, you know, check it out. I was scrolling through one day. I was like, this is, this is kind of interesting, but I guess they did end up reshooting a lot. I think the, and I'm not an expert here, please, but the gist that I, that I, from scrolling through some of these tweets, I think the, the original intention was for the movie and
Potential Raimi Cut Speculation
00:57:26
Speaker
the venom of it in particular to be like darker and scarier and that they rarely tone down a lot of that. That seemed to be a big piece of it. And then, you know, deleted scenes and things like that. But for whatever it's worth there, you know, there are fans, there's a, you know, a not, not, not a tiny contingent of fans who seem to be pushing for an alternative version. That's truer to what Raimi wanted to do. I mean, that'd be interesting. I always liked the ideas of director's cuts and just in principle, I think the,
00:57:56
Speaker
a lot of the, some of the Snyder fans with some of the behavior really kind of
00:58:02
Speaker
In fact, I was someone who was very much in favor of the idea of the Snyder Cut for a long time. And then some of the more extreme fans really kind of turned me off to that idea, because I felt like it was kind of rewarding bad behavior. But in principle, I think it'd be interesting to see how that would play out. Because like I said, I do think that the, like I mentioned, the Daredevil Cut, I thought that was a far superior movie to what we got them theatrically.
00:58:30
Speaker
Or, you know, you own some other ones like, you know, even though there's never been a proper director's cut of Alien 3 because David Fincher won't participate in it, like there's this assembly cut, which is a much stronger film. It'd be interesting to see what Raimi would do with it if he had that opportunity, or like the Donner cut of Superman 2 as well. It's another one that I go back to.
00:58:53
Speaker
which I've got another, I can tell you about that. I don't go too far field, but I got to wait a better way to add that cut then than they did in the, it would use reusing the time travel aspect, but it's the worst. It is. Yeah. There's so much that I love about the Donner cut. So this is so funny. You mentioned this. So as you and I are recording this episode, my episode of digging for kryptonite on the Donner cut comes out in two days. And so it's all very fresh for me, but, uh,
00:59:20
Speaker
I'll just say real quick with that, so not so as not to derail us, but if they had just ended it after he flies away from. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. That's the perfect spot to end, especially because you don't have to worry about how it influences Superman three. And, you know, Superman Returns has so many plot problems with the continuity anyway that it doesn't really matter. So, yeah, I think that would have worked so much better for sure.
00:59:45
Speaker
Yeah, if I ever get around to covering the Donner Cut on here, that's definitely something I'll talk at length about. But back to Spider-Man 3.
Directors' Strengths in Spider-Man Films
00:59:53
Speaker
You know, it's interesting watching these movies, because I have, there's things about the the Raimi trilogy that work really well and other things that I don't really like. And then the Amazing Spider-Man series, it seems to have fixed some of the things that I didn't like with the Raimi series, but then it gets other things wrong. So like the,
01:00:14
Speaker
My favorite part of the, of the rainy trilogy is the villains. I think the villains are all, for the most part, like, you know, there's, we talked about a little bit, you know, Venom getting shortchanged and all that, but for the most part, I think the villains are very strong in, in the rainy trilogy. And while the Peter, Peter's personal life, that's kind of,
01:00:36
Speaker
it doesn't quite work as well. Whereas in the Mark Webb films, the villains are the weakest part and then it's the Peter and the Gwen stuff that's the strongest and the interpersonal relationships work really well there. And I think it comes down to these different directors, right? You've got Sam Raimi who comes from a background of doing horror films and he's much better with dealing with those types of characters. Whereas Mark Webb,
01:01:00
Speaker
you know, most famous for 500 days of summer. So he's really good at those interpersonal dynamics. Although on the flip side, I think Tobey Maguire works much better as Peter Parker while Andrew Garfield works much better as Spider-Man. So I kind of wish, and I was thinking about this because we talked about yesterday's when we recorded the Man of Steel episode. And I was thinking, and in that episode I compared it to Superman Returns where there are aspects of both movies that I want to kind of
01:01:27
Speaker
remove and fit together. And I feel the same way with the Raimi trilogy and the Mark Web films. I don't know about you if you have any thoughts similar to that as I did. Yeah, you know, it's fine. I've.
01:01:39
Speaker
I've always been a fan of the web films, mostly for the relationship between Peter and Gwen. I, you know, I agree. I think that was, that was really the highlight. And I really did enjoy him as Peter, but I enjoyed Toby as Peter. I, and it's, you know, it's hard to separate, you know, sort of my objective assessment versus the nostalgia and the experience of watching those.
01:02:01
Speaker
those movies at those specific ages when I watch them. But. Yeah, the Raimi series is definitely holds a very special place for me, but there's a lot of really good stuff in the in the Web movies. Oh, yeah. There's always a bummer that they didn't get to move forward. And there, too, you know, there was so much that they were setting up. There's so much they were setting up as far as an ultimate, you know, sinister six confrontation. But but even on the back story with Peter's parents, I mean, there's so much stuff that in each movie
01:02:31
Speaker
You know, they kept teasing their stuff and trailers that never went anywhere. You know, really got the sense that there was a lot that got left on the cutting room floor. So, you know, that series never totally came together, but a lot of good stuff. I mean, I'm glad that No Way Home has sort of caused people to take another look at those movies and show some appreciation for Andrew Garfield, Spider-Man. But yeah, I mean, I think for me, ultimately, yeah, it was the Peter Gwen relationship that was the highlight of that series.
01:02:59
Speaker
But overall, you know, my my heart is with with the Raimi movies. And it's funny because I like the Tom Holland movies a lot.
Nostalgia's Influence on Spider-Man Films
01:03:06
Speaker
They're fun. They're enjoyable. They're entertaining. But the thing I realized, they don't stay with me. They haven't stayed with me the way the Sam Raimi movies did. And.
01:03:19
Speaker
And I don't know, maybe it's cause you know, I'm 35 now and I'm watching, you know, Tom Holland running around. I was like, yeah, it's fun. But it's like, I don't connect with it as much. And maybe that has something to do with it, but it just, that was again, one of the other reasons why I picked Spider-Man three and why I had been thinking about Spider-Man three. Cause it's like the Tom Holland movies are fun. Like I'm not knocking them, but like I said, they just don't stick with me the way these other movies did.
01:03:41
Speaker
I think maybe you're on something with that nostalgia factor because the first Spider-Man movie I saw, that was the end of my senior year in college. So it's right, I mean, senior year in high school. So that's right before I'm about to go off to college. So I was very much in that stage of life when I'm starting to get more discerning about movies and everything.
01:04:04
Speaker
the rainy films don't quite stick with me in the same way that they do to you, probably because of that of the ages that we watch them in, because I think comparing it to say,
01:04:16
Speaker
Burton's Batman, 89, or the daughter of Superman, those stick with me a lot more. There's a lot more nostalgic value, probably similar to you with the rainy Spider-Man films. Whereas I look at the rainy films and I can see them, I'm looking at them much more in isolation compared to, I'm not as tied to the nostalgia aspect of it.
01:04:38
Speaker
Yeah, I hear you. Cause it's funny. Like with Tom Holland, I feel like objectively he's probably the best. I think he's in terms of what you would want in a Peter Parker and a spider man. He probably strikes the best balance. I think so too. Yeah. Toby's still my favorite. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I get that. I see that taking it back to, I get, I get, I see that with Keaton's Batman or Donner Superman. Whereas I think Christian Bale or Ben Affleck are
01:05:08
Speaker
much better representations of the character, even though, you know, some of the scripts that Affleck got, I got problems with, but I think in terms of the way they embody the characters much better than much closer to what I think of as the quintessential Batman, as opposed to Keaton, but Keaton's got that nostalgic value for me. And that's why I love, that's why he ultimately ended up, I ended up going back and back to him. I think it's, it's probably a similar thing with you and Toby McGuire, cause I,
01:05:35
Speaker
rewatch these movies. I always think that I love Toby as Peter because Toby is so obviously a geek, right? And I think that's one of the problems I had connecting to Andrew Garfield's Peter Parker is he's just too good looking. He's too charming. He's too cool. I can't buy Andrew Garfield as a geek. I can buy Toby McGuire as a geek. I can buy Tom Holland as a geek. Andrew Garfield, he's just way too charming and I just can't buy it.
01:05:59
Speaker
Yeah, I know. Yeah. No, I don't I don't disagree with that. And, you know, as much as they tried to play him as more of the like, I don't know, emo loner sort of. It's just like it's still Andrew Garfield. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but what I think Andrew Garfield excelled in was the being Spider-Man and being like quippy and, you know, with the the motor mouth aspect, I thought he did that arguably maybe even better than Tom Holland. I thought he did that really well. Whereas Toby, every time he tries to crack a joke as Spider-Man, I'm just I think part of it is also
01:06:30
Speaker
Sam Raimi's got a very corny sense of humor, so I don't think it's really working in there as well. But every time he tries to make a joke as Peter, I'm just like, as Spider-Man, I'm just like, really? Come on. Yeah, no, unfairness. That was definitely an area of the movie did not excel. And when you look at the web movies, it's like, yeah, it definitely taps into that quippy side in a genuinely funny way. Yeah, that was, I agree with you. I would put Andrew Garfield Spider-Man at the top of the list when it comes to that for sure. Yeah, I think so too.
01:07:00
Speaker
The black costume in this movie, like I said, I think I was so, cause I love that black costume design. In fact, I got a, I got a spider man. I got a little statue of him right here. But I love that black costume design and just seeing what they did with it here was just so disappointing. Cause it's just, it's just the regular suit without any color. And I, I was really kind of disappointed with that. How about you? What'd you feel feel about that?
01:07:28
Speaker
Yeah, same, same. And it just felt like a missed opportunity. Very nice. Yeah, I mean, what do I want to say?
Black Costume Design Critique
01:07:41
Speaker
Generally speaking, I'm not, I don't think that I, you know, am so rigid, right? Like, oh, it was this way in the comics. It has to be this way in the movies. It's not that, but
01:07:54
Speaker
I do think when you have an opportunity, especially when something works really well, like I think it's such a great visual and the animated series did it great, utilizing that design as well. It sort of seems like a missed opportunity to not tap into it. And I also think just making the suit black, like it's not different enough, it's not interesting enough. Like I feel like there was that step that was missing there. So yeah, no, I too wish that they had gone with the white.
01:08:23
Speaker
especially because they went with it when, when Topher becomes Venom. So I thought it was really odd. It was an odd choice. They didn't use it when, when Peter's using the suit too. So I don't know what if there was just a, doesn't seem like a, well, maybe they ran out of money because I know they spent a lot of money on just the Sandman effects of it all just on that as well. But yeah, also I didn't quite like the fact that it's
01:08:45
Speaker
And I'm not sure if it was supposed to mean that the symbiote had just kind of like infested his regular suit or what it was trying to do with that. Cause like the idea of him like the black suit literally just being a suit, right? It's not like the symbiote had the symbiote behaves in the comics. I thought it was an interesting choice as well.
01:09:05
Speaker
So I originally, that was one of the things I didn't like. I really was more, more looking for like what the animated series had done because I'll be honest, I don't know that I've ever read a ton of the original comics dealing with the black suit. Generally, you know, here and there, but it was not something that was like really part of, of my reading history.
01:09:25
Speaker
Well, I read I remember reading that because I saw that my first exposure to the black suit and that storyline was in the animated series. And then at the time, Marvel had like the alien costume saga was this big trade paperback and I read it and I was disappointed as a kid because it had it's just it's literally just this costume where it doesn't affect his personality or anything like that. The whole it's just the adventures he has while he's between when he comes back from the end of Secret Wars where he got the suit and then
01:09:55
Speaker
the issue when he discovers it's actually a symbiote and then he has, and then Reed Richards helps him get rid of it. But the rest of it, it's just regular Spider-Man stories. So there's no real, even though they call it the alien saga, there's no real alien costume aspect to it. The only thing is like, it behaves differently than his regular suit. It doesn't affect his personality. It has no real impact on the story at all. So you're not missing a whole lot if you're going into it expecting some big storyline dealing with the costume itself.
01:10:27
Speaker
But yeah, so I think that was something that I always thought was lacking in the movie was the fact that it really just becomes this costume that he can take on and off. And when I was watching with my wife, she was like, wait, it's just like it made itself into a costume and he could take it off. But again, I think that this, you know, the symbiote as a drug, right? And I think that's why this works because if it's something that just bonded to him and it's always there,
01:10:50
Speaker
Gotcha. Not all good to know, but
01:10:56
Speaker
I think you lose the effect, but here it's something that he he puts on and he takes off and he keeps going back to it when MJ breaks up with him or, you know, when he's experiencing this turmoil. So this darkness within him, you know, is sort of, you know, reaching out and, you know, when this suit feeds off of it. And so I think it it works until it gets to the point where he can't take it off anymore. Right. Like a drug addict. I mean, it
01:11:26
Speaker
Again, I think for what this, what Rainey was going for here, I think it was a solid choice. You know, again, I know maybe not what, you know, what fans were looking for. I recognize that, but if this was the approach that you wanted to take, that it's like this drug, then I think it forms a costume. He takes it on and off and he uses it when, you know, when he's feeling down. So yeah, I, I, I came around on that for sure.
01:11:52
Speaker
I think a big thing is, like you're talking about with the editor's cut, doing those constant callbacks to him putting it on, taking off. In that context, I think it works a lot better. In the theatrical context, it seems weird when, like, I had a very similar reaction to your wife. I think that's the big difference there. I think if it had done it, if I had seen the editor's cut, I think I would definitely be with you on that.
01:12:16
Speaker
Yeah, because I think looking back on the theatrical cut, I don't know that it was totally clear to me.
01:12:25
Speaker
what was going on, like when he had it and when he didn't or when it was influencing him or when it wasn't. And I think in part because I was thinking about it in terms of like what I had seen on the animated series where it's always there and then it just sort of envelops him and he's in the costume. And so there was always a little bit of that disconnect. So yeah, the editors could help with that for sure. Yeah. One other thing I wanted to talk about and that's the, and you kind of mentioned it earlier on where the whole idea that
01:12:53
Speaker
know, Sandman killed Uncle Ben as opposed to the original Carjacker. What did you think of that? Because I remember at the time being really kind of uneasy about it because it's you're taking away one of the key aspects of Spider-Man's origin story and it
01:13:14
Speaker
I'm a little bit okay with it now and as the years have passed, but at the time I remember really being upset that it ended on that note. I expected it to end on some note where the entire, you know, all in the lead up to the movie and then all the way up until the end, I kept expecting it to be that, you know, they were wrong, that it actually was the carjacker who killed Uncle Ben and it was, and Sandman was his partner, but he wasn't the one who pulled the trigger. I don't know, what did you think of the way they did that?
01:13:41
Speaker
That's one aspect that I'm still not totally sold on. Like I'm on board with this Topher Grace iteration of
Retcons in Superhero Origin Stories
01:13:49
Speaker
Eddie Brock. I'm on board with Emo Peter with the bangs in his face, dancing down the street. It works in this context. The origin retcon is tough because and it's funny to bring this back to Superman. I've recently recorded episodes talking about the return of Jor-El in the recent comics.
01:14:06
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. It really, really bugs me because I feel like it undermines the integrity of the origin. And so, especially when you're dealing with, again, Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, these iconic characters and these origin stories that are so well known and so indelible, I think you have to tread very carefully. And so on its face like yourself, I'm not I'm not a huge fan of the idea that no, it wasn't actually the burglar. It was it was Sandman and
01:14:37
Speaker
To be honest, I probably still kind of land on that side, but I think in terms of the themes that this movie was tapping into of revenge and anger and ultimately forgiveness, Sandman and this retcon, it does lend itself well to those themes. Now, you could kind of argue, it's like, do you really need it? Because you have it with Harry, right? And that's ultimately the emotional core of this, the Harry, the Peter and the MJ of it all.
01:15:06
Speaker
So it's like, do you really need it? Or, you know, could Sandman have not done something else to someone else in Peter's life and Peter forgave? Like, I will say it is, I think, a very poignant moment at the end where Peter says, I forgive you. And you see Sandman's humanity too, where he's like, I did a terrible thing to you. I don't expect you to forgive me, but I just want you to understand. And there's a moment of true humanity that's shared between them.
01:15:33
Speaker
And then surprisingly, they go back to a no way home, which I thought was really kind of cool. I completely forgot about that moment at the end of Spider-Man three. So it popped up in no way home. And I was like, oh, Sandman and Spider-Man are friends now, I guess. And then rewatching it last night. I'm like, oh, I get it now. I see. Yeah. So I guess I really like.
01:15:55
Speaker
that moment when we get there, I guess maybe I just wonder if we couldn't have gotten there a different way without, you know, I wonder if we could have gotten there without upsetting the, you know, the Uncle Ben piece of the story there without that retcon, but I can live with it. Yeah. Yeah. I feel the same way. I think it's because yeah, when you're playing with that origin,
01:16:20
Speaker
I always get nervous every time a comic story or a movie says, we're going back to the origin. Because almost always it's a bad idea. I can think of very few times when it actually has worked out and made the origin story stronger. Most times it's just kind of like, you really just wanted something to kind of draw attention to the story. Because like you said, the Jor-El thing, I kept thinking that when I was reading that in the comics, I'm like, oh, it's gonna be some sort of
01:16:49
Speaker
you know, multi-versal shenanigans or something, it's gonna be Jor-El from an alternate timeline. And then when it wasn't, that just, yeah, that still doesn't sit well with me, as much as I love the rebirth stuff. And the same thing here, or like in another more recent comic story, having this idea of Tony Stark actually being adopted or whatever, and not being the actual child of Howard Stark, and there being another,
01:17:19
Speaker
Arno Stark being like the real biological child of Howard. And like I had real problems with that as well. And it's, it doesn't, I feel like it's not, unless you're doing something like Winter Soldier where you're really adding something new to the character, this doesn't really add anything new to it. It's just, it just feels like you're trying to find a way to make it more personal to the hero as opposed to telling something that enhances the origin story.
01:17:47
Speaker
Yeah.
Future Potential for Spider-Man Films
01:17:48
Speaker
Now, so I, I mean, I, I agree with all of that, but I'll play devil's advocate here and I'll even argue against myself just now. But I think, I know this wasn't intended to be the final movie, right? They were ready to go on Spider-Man four. Oh yeah. I mean, change it. I was reading this. Apparently, Ramey had had like ideas up to Spider-Man six. So.
01:18:09
Speaker
Wow. So again, I know this wasn't meant to be the end end, but it was at least the end of this initial trilogy. And so there is something I think fitting about bringing it full circle and going back to the origin. And I also, I do think, well, gave Aunt May at least a little something to do. Yeah. You
Metaphorical Black Suit
01:18:28
Speaker
know, in those scenes with Peter, I mean, going back to what you were saying about having something else Sandman does, I was almost thinking as you were saying that, and I think now that you just said that about Aunt May, it really kind of drove that point home for me. I think if.
01:18:39
Speaker
you would have him do something to Aunt May, like, you know, he steals her car or something or he, you know, when he's, you know, on his escape, he takes her hostage or, and the trauma that gives her a heart attack or something like that, I think would have given Peter that same emotional need for revenge to go after Sandman without mucking with the origin. And it would have given May more to do too.
01:19:03
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. Fair point. But I guess what I was going to say is that, like, you know, in a sense, I do get this whole idea of Peter being susceptible to the black suit and in the theatrical cut, when he's on the bed, as the suits crawling up, are we seeing his flashbacks to Uncle Ben? Is that in there? Yes, I think so. Yeah.
01:19:23
Speaker
Okay. Cause I wasn't sure if that was, I was watching the editors kind of like, did they, is that new or did they add more of that? But in any event, it's clearly showing us that all of the, you know, the fear and the guilt and these feelings of revenge over uncle Ben, it's like, it's calling to the suit.
01:19:39
Speaker
Yeah, and it's it's leaving him vulnerable and open and susceptible to the influence of the suit. And so
Integration of Multiple Villains
01:19:45
Speaker
I don't think you're wrong. I mean, I think had it been Aunt May, you would probably still get the same effect, but there is something very, you know, very compelling, right, about about it being Uncle Ben.
01:19:58
Speaker
And it's like that, maybe that's the one, you know, the one piece of his history, one person in his life who like would leave him like there's so much wrapped up in Uncle Ben's death for him, right? That if this is like reopening it is twisting him up so much that it's leaving him vulnerable to this, to this different kind of attack. So I can I get, I do get the choices that were made. That's one where I'm still not totally sold. But like I said, I, I've come to terms with it.
01:20:25
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, it's like you said, it's been 15 years now. So people can let it go. So, but yeah. Insummation, I think this is, it's frustrating in a lot of ways. I don't, I haven't come around on this in the same way that I've come to appreciate aspects of, you know, Iron Man 3 or Man of Steel, but there are still things in this movie that I think are fun. And I think some of the things that,
01:20:56
Speaker
A lot of the criticisms that people have in the movie are actually things that I think are the most fun of it. And the things that people don't really talk about, like we kind of talked about here with the Peter MJ relationship, those are the things that stick with me a lot more on rewatch, that don't work for me as well in the rewatch. But the villains mostly work for me.
01:21:20
Speaker
You know, Harry is, you know, James Franco is definitely having a lot of fun playing a bad guy in this and I think that's cool to watch. Like you said, the pie scene is great. And again, I make no apology. I love Topher Gracie here as Venom. I would have liked to see, I would have liked this to have been,
01:21:41
Speaker
The first of a two part movie and which was actually something that the screenwriter was thinking about. You know, because he felt like there's too much in this one movie and he wanted to split it up, but he couldn't really quite figure out an appropriate climax for for this part because of that. And I think it would have worked so much better if
01:22:00
Speaker
you get Topher Grace as his own movie, give him his own movie to be the villain in a Spider-Man 4, I think would have worked so much better and I think would have given people a much better impression of his character. Totally.
Ranking Spider-Man Films
01:22:15
Speaker
And I don't think anyone would dispute this. To introduce the black suit and take Peter on a journey in the black suit,
01:22:26
Speaker
and do Venom in one movie is- As well as doing the payoff for Harry's storyline and throwing in Sandman too. It's like I said, there's too much story. It does remind me of Dark Phoenix because Dark Phoenix in both instances had the same problem, right? In X-Men 3 and in the Dark Phoenix movie, they're trying to combine these two big, big, big storylines into one and then throw in other aspects to add them to it.
01:22:56
Speaker
Yeah, no, absolutely. And like going back to what I said before, so you can look at it two ways, right? Like this movie probably should have ended either right before the credits or a post credit scene of Eddie Brock in the church becoming venom and like cliffhanger, right? Alternatively, had they had a scene or two of Eddie Brock in the prior movie or, you know, like, or, and again, I don't want to touch Spider-Man too, because I really that's, I love it so much, but just hypothetically speaking, like if,
01:23:25
Speaker
if the black suit had been introduced previously. Like if we had some breathing room in either direction, I think that would have gone a long way. But all of it in one movie was totally a lie. At the end of the day, would I hold this up as my favorite of the series?
01:23:42
Speaker
No, but like I said, I really do think it works better than people have given it credit for. I think it works particularly well in the context of this version of the character in this film series. The Emo Peter tracks with this version of the character. The black suit as a drug metaphor works well. And it's a different interpretation, but again, I think it works. And I will say for anyone who's even
01:24:09
Speaker
open at all to going back to this movie. Try the editor's cut. I rented it on Amazon. It was four bucks. And like I said, not not a night and day difference, but it changes a couple of things in a way that really enhanced my enjoyment. So there's there's some value to be had here for people who like totally, you know, wrote this movie off. There's some good stuff there.
01:24:30
Speaker
Yeah, based on what you said, I think the editor's cut would have worked a lot better for me as well. I mean, just the big change of just having him constantly look back and forth and making it clear that he's taking it off and putting it back on again. And then, you know, giving Harry a different reason to come out and say them. Those two aspects would have definitely made this a much better movie. It wouldn't have made it, it would still been flawed in a lot of ways, but I think it would have made it a better film.
01:25:02
Speaker
Definitely. Um, no, you did say, would you hold up? Where do you think you would rank this on the spectrum of Spider-Man movies? Do you, would you still put it at, at the bottom? Would you put it, uh, would you put something else in the bottom? Where do you think you would put this? Just within this series or all of, I don't know that I can do all this. Okay. Because I, within this series, I think it's pretty obvious, but if you were talking about all of them, what do you think you'd put this?
01:25:30
Speaker
That's tough. I wish I had a better answer for you here. I don't know. Cause it's hard to as you know, I kind of look at them as, as, as the, as the franchises overall. And I don't know. I don't, I don't really have a great answer.
01:25:47
Speaker
Oh, it's funny, like, I don't know, Spider-Man far from home, like it was fun, but honestly, I probably rewatch Spider-Man three before I rewatch that. And it's not, again, it's like, it's not like, oh, it's a terrible movie, but I don't know. This is more interesting. I feel like this is more interesting. So, you know, I don't know. I'd have to give that some more thought, but where does it rank for you now after rewatch? I mean,
Appreciation for Spider-Man 3 Editor's Cut
01:26:12
Speaker
before it would have definitely been at the bottom.
01:26:15
Speaker
But we had, I'd done, I'd done, I covered both the Amazing Spider-Man movies last year. So those are still somewhat fresh in my mind. And there are, I think it might still be at the bottom, but there are, just like with Amazing Spider-Man 2, there are aspects of it that I really like and then aspects of it that I really hate. And I think it's,
01:26:42
Speaker
It depends on which aspect I'm focusing on. If I'm focusing more on the interpersonal relationships, then Spider-Man 3 would be at the bottom. If I'm focusing more on the villains, then Amazing Spider-Man 2 would be at the bottom. So it would kind of go back and forth between those two for me. I hear you. Fair enough.
01:27:00
Speaker
Okay, um, this was fun. This was a fun discussion and I like going back and revisiting some of these movies and giving them another another chance and I, I didn't even know the editor's cut was available, like on Amazon or anything I thought it was like something that had been released online like the
01:27:17
Speaker
you know, like the, like the de-specialized editions or like the, there's an Iron Man 3 cut apparently floating out there. There's a Superman 4 cut apparently floating out there. So I'm kind of surprised that I didn't know that they had actually officially released that. So I'm gonna have to go and check that out. Maybe not right away. I think I might give it some time before going back and doing it, but it would be interesting to watch at some point.
01:27:41
Speaker
Look, this movie always kind of made me sad going back to the first time I watched it in the theater. And anytime I've either rewatched it or thought about it or talked about it with guys at the comic shop, it was always kind of a bummer. Like, Oh man, like that series ended on that note. And, and like I said, in recent times I've sort of, I've been curious about it, but I thank you for this opportunity. Cause it
Podcasting Community Benefits
01:28:01
Speaker
gave me the final push to rewatch it and specifically to watch the editors cut in.
01:28:06
Speaker
You know, I don't want to oversell it, but it's a great, it's a really great feeling to now have affection for a movie that previously was a bummer to me. So again, this was a great experience, a great rewatch project, a great discussion. I thank you so much. I really got a lot out of this. So I appreciate it. Yeah, me too. And like I said, you, you introduced me to the idea of the editor's cut. So I'm going to have to look that up. Um, but Anthony, why don't you tell people where they can find you?
01:28:35
Speaker
Sure. So, you know, we've been talking about the Superman podcast. It's called digging for kryptonite, a Superman fan journey, and it's on all major podcast platforms. So wherever you get your podcasts, uh, you can go ahead and check out some episodes and subscribe. And my website is flat squirrel productions.com. So you can find out more about my other podcasts and documentary films.
01:28:54
Speaker
Uh, but again, I really hope people check out digging for kryptonite. It's been a real, real passion project. And I, I, you know, it's for 50 episodes in and it's like, I just, I love doing it so much. So, uh, to anyone who has listened or who does listen after this, I really appreciate it.
01:29:11
Speaker
Yeah, it's a great show, and I'm really glad that Bernie introduced me to it, that I was able to find out about it. And that's one of the cool things about doing stuff like this is, and when you have, because when I first started the show, it was me and my regular co-host, but once he passed away, we had to switch to a different format. And it's been kind of cool to do that as much as it was amazing doing it with him, but it's also kind of cool because it's given me the chance to
01:29:36
Speaker
get different perspectives. And like, if that, if, you know, if I hadn't seen Bernie post about your podcast and then listen to him and then had him on here, I probably would not have gone and found your podcast and then thought to reach out to you and bring you on. So it's really cool how these little connections in the, in the fan community can be made like that. It's been one of the unexpected joys honestly of doing this. I echo that totally.
01:30:01
Speaker
Okay. Um, but yeah, it's a great show. Definitely listening to it. And I'm looking forward to hearing the rest of the Donner series. Cause that's definitely very near and dear to me. And it's been really, I've really enjoyed the episodes you've done so far. And I'm really looking forward to the Superman two one. Cause that's,
Podcast Wrap-up and Promotions
01:30:15
Speaker
I think, I think I'm definitely going to have a lot in common with you guys based on just this conversation here. Um, but thanks again. And, uh, more than welcome. Come back on anytime you want to. Oh, thanks so much. Appreciate it.
01:30:28
Speaker
Okay, and that does it for this episode of Superhero Cinephiles. Superherocinephiles.com is the website. Supercinemapod is our Twitter and our Instagram, and you can find us on Facebook as well. Please leave us a review on Apple podcasts, and that does it for now. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll talk to you next time.
01:30:46
Speaker
You have been listening to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at SuperCinemapod. Join our Facebook group by searching for Superhero Cinephiles, where you can interact with us and other superhero fans. If you'd like to support the show, you can become a regular supporter at Patreon or make a one-time donation through PayPal, both of which can be found at our website, SuperheroCinephiles.com.
01:31:09
Speaker
If you buy or rent any movies through the Amazon links at our site, it helps support the show. Please be sure to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening. And as always,
01:31:39
Speaker
Good night, good evening, God bless.