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TSP Ep 150: You Can't Spell Fart Without Art or Why we Learned to Stop Fearing Being Bad And Love The Art or The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly
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In this episode, Tom and Steve discuss the new Resident Evil movie and the video games, they unravel the hallmarks of a good film, the script and what it really means throughout the filmmaking process, and what it takes to go from hobbyist to pro.
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Transcript
Cameos, Burnout, and Sick Days
00:00:00
Speaker
Our best cameos were were dogs. That's all we could afford. Actually, there's no dogs in the movie. sure Yeah, we hate dogs. We kill them all.
00:00:12
Speaker
um So yeah, buddy. How you doing? You know, I'm all right. I took some time off of work because I've just been feeling really burnt out on just work. and ah the st still We had a storm here in California this week, and it cut off the the mountain on my drive home. So my drive homes have been two and a half to three hours every day.
00:00:35
Speaker
um As opposed to And that's like an hour and 45 minutes to two hours. So it's like 30 minutes to an hour longer getting home. And it really, you really feel it.
00:00:49
Speaker
I know I do. like Like my elbows hurt from like driving so much. um Maybe i need to like do some stretches when I'm in the car and shit, you know, like, oh yeah, work out. But yeah, you know, I'm doing okay. How about you, buddy?
00:01:04
Speaker
You sounded a little under the weather instead of in the clouds. That's for sure. i'll I'll say, you know, you're getting older, buddy. You got to start taking better care of your health, man. You're getting to that age, man. Or you are at that age.
00:01:17
Speaker
This is my active retirement plan. I'm just going to keel over dead.
00:01:26
Speaker
That's my retirement plan. just by Hopefully one day I go to sleep and I don't wake up and that's how I'll quit work. I mean, at least when I'm 40. I'll give it to till all I'm 40.
00:01:38
Speaker
Well, that's pretty soon. I know. every Every day is a and ah like a nice last day is all I like to say.
00:01:48
Speaker
But yeah, buddy, are you not feeling good? Yeah, I'm feeling a little sick at... ah Uh, audience will probably notice a little delay cause we're doing this remotely to make this all work out.
00:01:59
Speaker
Sucks. I hate being sick. I don't know what I got, man. I think it's different than a cold. I was thinking it was COVID for a second, but I don't know. I can't smell anything. Oh, well, yeah, you know, could be COVID. that that It didn't go away.
00:02:13
Speaker
Yeah, I know. And I've been sick since um like Tuesday. Yeah, gross. Called off a couple days and yeah, still not better.
00:02:25
Speaker
Well, buddy, hope you get some recovery. Sorry, I haven't worked on much shit. No, dude, you're sick. Don't worry about it. But, I mean, I've been working a
Finding Motivation and Creative Struggles
00:02:33
Speaker
lot. I wrote two scripts in the past two days. Yeah, so what's ah inspired this ah what's inspired this ah new sense of, you know, getting getting in there and getting work done? Is it because it's a new year and all that?
00:02:46
Speaker
No, honestly, I think it's the burnout. Yeah. Like, I, like, for pretty much since, I want to say, ah probably a little bit before Christmas, it was just like, dude, like, I just haven't just had any motivation to really do anything.
00:03:06
Speaker
And yeah I was kind of just sitting around and ah i had opened up my script folder on the Google Drive. And I was just kind of going through and like,
00:03:21
Speaker
Seeing like, oh, I was like, because I was like, I remember I think on the last podcast I had mentioned it, which I'm kind of excited to listen to it because I did not remember anything. like ah really You out that bad? think was a good one.
00:03:34
Speaker
I blacked out pretty hard. ah Well, we were like, we killed killed that everything that we were drinking. Yeah, I blacked out. I blacked out during the podcast at some point.
00:03:47
Speaker
Yeah, I'm excited to read the script. Josh, he wasn't on the last podcast. no no No, no. That's the podcast I blacked out for was with Josh. This last podcast, I wasn't that bad. And I didn't even think you were that bad. You didn't seem like as drunk as you've been other times.
00:04:04
Speaker
Oh, I was, yeah. I don't know what it was, but yeah, you know, I'm excited to listen to that one. I was, I really liked that script and I can't wait to hear ah you read it because I don't remember it at all.
00:04:17
Speaker
That's kind of the problem about doing the script at the end of the episodes, right? It's like, I'm pretty much gone by then. i'm Maybe I'm not given the best performance, ah but, but that's part of the front. I had noticed.
00:04:29
Speaker
I had noticed that like I had only written one thing 2025.
00:04:34
Speaker
And that was the little spec script commercial thing for Ricoh, which I thought I did OK on that one. um I i like worked pretty hard to get that one good, that Ricoh diner script.
00:04:47
Speaker
um But then I was just like, dude, what am doing? So wasn't even Ricoh the short. It was Ricoh the diner? Yeah. just that It's like five pages or something. And I was like, that's nothing. like i I used to crank out 10, 15 pages a week.
00:05:01
Speaker
ten fifteen pages a week um You're writing as fast as But yeah, and i was like, you know, I got to... You can't stall forever.
00:05:14
Speaker
And there is some dickhead stuff I i need to do. like I think I need to get like the VFX directory essentially going. um Like what shots need to get done, like a readdressed um since we have the color done.
00:05:27
Speaker
And what was fixed and what... ah Like, I need to do that. But I was just like, I also we ah you know need to write. if i wanted If we want to do this, like, writing is number one. And that's kind of a the theme of today's episode a little bit, too, is writing bad films, what it means to be bad and great, and why being bad isn't always necessarily a bad thing, right?
The Art of Writing and Filmmaking
00:05:54
Speaker
There's the good, the bad, and the ugly in film, so to say.
00:05:58
Speaker
And yeah, that's going to be at the thesis of this episode. um Because yeah, I wrote a feature script. ah and It was one I had already started and I was like 20 pages in and I just kind of went and finished it and then kind of went through and was punching it up a little bit. And then i was like, oh, this is actually something.
00:06:22
Speaker
I think. Yeah. But i need your help on it. and So that's why I sent it over to you because there's a couple there's a couple beats, a couple scenes where it's just like, fuck, I just... Normally it just happens, right? I don't really think about it too much.
00:06:37
Speaker
But I ran into a couple roadblocks here and I was like, damn, is that just... Is that the rusty yet functional functionality of ah where I am? I don't know, but... yeah I'll say welcome everyone to Twin Shadows Podcast, to episode 149. Podcast about film filmmakers and filmmaking.
00:06:55
Speaker
Title this episode is, You Can't Spell Fart Without Art, or Why We Learned to Stop Fearing Being Bad and Love the Art. And in the news, hey talking about bad things, Robert Duvall died. Legendary actor, huge Coppola mainstay.
00:07:16
Speaker
um I mean, from Godfather to Apocalypse Now, I mean, not only the shows, but just Robert Duvall, the outfit.
00:07:28
Speaker
There's a lot of movies that Robert Duvall just really kicked ass in. yeah I mean, he was an old man, right? 95 is not, he's not a young buck. um Yeah, I mean, that's a good age get up to.
00:07:42
Speaker
Yeah, it's... ah But not only that, we had um that Grey's Anatomy actor also passed away this week. There was like a bunch. There's been a lot of deaths. Is there something like people just wait around till the new year to like kick off?
00:07:57
Speaker
um It seems like it, right? I don't know, man. the start of the new year, there's always like 10, 20 people just dying. Grandma's like, I made it through Christmas. Goodbye. Goodbye.
00:08:10
Speaker
Yeah, maybe that's how it is. It's like, hey, I made it out through this year. I'm i'm good. Catch you later, bro. Man, I wonder. There's probably some studies on that. but yeah yeah um I was thinking about that too. is Our generation is maybe a ah novel generation in the fact that we have so many celebrities that we're kind of connected with.
00:08:36
Speaker
Because we're connected with the previous generations and our generation and as we're aging up. it's just like It just seems like more people and more people are dying. We're just more aware yeah of all these people.
00:08:49
Speaker
um So you're saying that Gen z doesn't ah realize that Robert Duvall passed away? Yeah, they're probably like, who? Who's that? Who the fuck is that?
00:09:01
Speaker
Robert? Is he on YouTube or TikTok? Yeah, exactly. They're like, Godfather? That's a pedophile, right? Epstein? Like, oh, God, dude. That's hard that's Gen z um but Sorry, Robert Duvall. Rest in peace, man. And you know yeah everyone else that sadly lost this week.
00:09:26
Speaker
Yeah, he was he was a legendary actor. you know that That's always one that stings. Because he was one of my favorite actors. he was Anytime I see like his name, I always kind of check out those films with him.
00:09:39
Speaker
And he always elevated... Is he To Kill a Mockingbird? Yeah, I think that was his first film. his He's little, right? Or he's young. Yeah, well, he plays, isn't it like Boo Bradley or something? Damn, dude, I'm what i'm just looking at his filmography. I forgot Falling Down. He's the cop.
00:09:56
Speaker
Yeah, he takes up Michael Douglas. Right. He was even in The Road. do You remember him in The Road? Oh, yes, he is. He like tries to save them. Yeah, he's like, you guys got any beans? And Viggo's like, get out of here, old man. He's like, oh, shit, I can't see.
00:10:12
Speaker
That was his last film. Well, rest in peace,
Resident Evil: Film vs. Game
00:10:16
Speaker
Robert Duvall. Speaking of bring coming back from the dead, Zack Greger, he's doing Resident Evil. Zack Greger of Barbarian and most ah and maybe more notably Weapons. I think that's a far better film than Barbarian.
00:10:31
Speaker
um oh is he the director, he just or the writer? Yeah, both. Yeah. What did he do on Barbaria Weapons? He directed wrote them? Yeah, I believe so. Or co-wrote them or something. Oh, okay. But that's Zach Craig. Resident Evil film wrapped.
00:10:48
Speaker
Are you interested in this? Are you interested in Resident Evil films anymore? or How do you feel? Um... Yeah, I mean, I wrote that I'm always willing to give IPs I like a chance, which is a shame because so many companies know this and abuse this, you know, and that's always the area of trepidation. Because, you know, I still remember playing Resident Evil on the original PlayStation. Yeah.
00:11:08
Speaker
When they had the live action, what do you call those? The live action cut scenes. Yeah. And they were fucking cool. But, you know, there's such B-movie a little scenes. Oh, they're so bad.
00:11:22
Speaker
Right. You know, but i mean kind of kind of like what this this topic is as a whole is, you know, so bad it's good. And it has that certain charm that a lot of these ah bad horror films have, right? Yeah.
00:11:37
Speaker
Yeah. Well, you know, i was thinking about this and I was like, I think it's the the framing is wrong. Maybe it's because bad does not equate unwatchable. And damn, those you you're right. Those cut scenes were cool. But on an objective level, they were awful. Like they read it like two. ah Yeah, they are super laggy.
00:11:57
Speaker
ah It was like they're blurry and super pixelated. And the voice actors are atrocious. But, there you know, it's something. look quite cool about it uh it was definitely something quite charming cool at the time oh yeah i was gonna say i think if they could capture that because i think that's what um what romero was because he was slated to do resident evil originally and then they canned his ass because he was gonna make it like a campy zombie movie and they wanted something more interesting right and
00:12:29
Speaker
But I think that's where you got to go is kind of like back to the roots of some of the camp of zombie films. and And then mix in like the deeper, atmospheric, interesting elements of Resident Evil. Because, I mean...
00:12:46
Speaker
One of the best elements of the video game was solving the mystery of the zombie outbreak, right? Like finding little pieces of information that are telling you what's going on ah prior within the mansion and exposing you to this ah deeper, darker world of Umbrella. Like that was cool, right? That world building,
00:13:08
Speaker
the The exposition dumps that tell you what's happening in little chunks that build to this larger, cohesive ah idea of what happened. Absolutely. Kind of like 28 days later, right? They don't show the initial outbreak.
00:13:26
Speaker
but I think maybe there's one scene at the start where they do – yeah, the the monkeys. But then after that, you don't see London being torn apart. It's already torn apart. Yeah. And then you're only getting information of what happened through the characters as he – Cillian Murphy's character meets them along his way.
00:13:45
Speaker
And that's kind of what Resident Evil is, right? it It's already happened. Yeah. ah You're in the aftermath. There's zombies everywhere the around the mansion, right, with the dogs. And so you're just getting exposed to the bigger story.
00:13:58
Speaker
And it's not like they're ah familiar with zombies, right? Jill or Chris, depending on who you pick. Yeah. they're They're not walking in like, oh I'm going to come kill some zombies. No, yeah like that cut scene where the zombie is like eating the dude in the library or right outside the dining room or whatever the hell it is. It's like, damn, that, you know, that kind of scared me when I was little. Yeah.
00:14:20
Speaker
and yeah And I think the other thing too is these filmmakers just don't fucking respect the game. And can I say something to that? Did you raise your hand? Did you just fucking click your hand raise?
00:14:32
Speaker
What the fuck? I think it's faster than me talking. Are you hearing the delay? I'll pay attention. Well, you know,
00:14:44
Speaker
The original Night of the Living Dead had some iconic scenes with the zombies, right? Like you have the, ah they're coming to get you, Barbara, and all that shit. But I would say one of the most iconic zombie shots in zombie, you know, pop culture is the Resident Evil first zombie that turned its head for you to see it covered in blood. Because I remember I showed my mom and she freaked the fuck out because was like, what the fuck kind of video game is this? You never saw that kind of shit in video games. To see that for the first time. Especially if you weren't rich. If you weren't rich, you never saw a live action video in a game before. Because that shit was on Sega CD or Sega Saturn. No one had that shit. Only the fucking rich people had that.
00:15:31
Speaker
The fucking Wing Commander. couldn't afford that shit. I played Yoshi's Island 900 times because that's all we had. You know, if we were lucky, you get to go to the fucking Hollywood video and I could rent Chrono Trigger or something, but your save would always be gone, you know? Like, yeah, dude. I had to start over every time.
00:15:51
Speaker
ah But, yeah, I mean, the i was going to say, this is what I want to say, because I know you're Resident Evil fan as as much as I am of the of yeah games. Yeah. they just never have made anything close to what the actual essence and story of the at least the original game at all.
00:16:08
Speaker
The original movie, like it has the Mila Jovovich films, the Paul W.S. Anderson. Yeah. ah whatever his name is, films. Those films have a, they like have the dressing, some of the dressings, right? Where it's like, okay, there's the mansion, they have the dogs, they have they have elements from the games, but they don't ever follow like the story or, yeah because the story is kind of interesting and they do have a link and they build upon these certain characters like Leon and Chris and Jill and Claire.
00:16:44
Speaker
And but what's that? Hunk. Wasn't that his name? Hunk. ah Hunk. Oh, Ada. Ada Wong. That's her. Right. She's so hot.
00:16:55
Speaker
I've been re-watching Cowboy Bebop. And like i I kind of forgot like how horny that show is. And I love it. kind of love it. Oh, yeah. It's fun.
00:17:07
Speaker
Oh, yeah, man. I was showing the girls Cowboy Bebop not so long ago. was like, oh, shit, I didn't know it was this bad. Yeah, but not only that, like I miss like legit animation.
00:17:19
Speaker
like I watch a lot of new anime, and it's like, dude, just like one episode of Cowboy Bebop probably has more frames than a new episode of any anime today. ah The hair, just like the way Spike's hair moves. is like I'm like, wow, like I can't believe hair moves like that. This show was made in 1999.
00:17:38
Speaker
like What happened? yeah Anime characters nowadays are like fucking cut and paste. You just change their name and like there's a little dial on how big you want the tits. like and Half the time it's like, move all the way to the right. You know what we're doing.
00:17:52
Speaker
And she's 14. He's like, oh, God, dude. It's like, oh, God, Epstein Island again. I know, the fucking lollies. What were we talking about, Resident Evil?
00:18:05
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, i think I think Resident Evil could always be a good... a series, a franchise, movie-wise, they just kind of have to be small about it.
00:18:18
Speaker
You know, the first Resident Evil is like Alien, and then Resident Evil 2 is like Aliens. And then everyone's trying to be like Resident Evil 3, which is, i don't know, fucking Alien versus Predator.
00:18:30
Speaker
And they kind of just miss the whole point of everything. um So I think if they just kind of dialed it back in with something a little more... atmospheric something a little bit more mysterious, it played into that area of Resident Evil. I think that would be a ah really good way to revitalize a franchise. And I'd be down for it. There's so many cool aspects of Resident Evil, like Umbrella and shit, you know, stars and... Yeah. And all of that. So well i mean so there's a lot of elements there.
00:19:02
Speaker
My favorite is 4, which I think is an extremely filmable yeah ah game. I mean, that has like all the character beats and the all the the way the intro and everything plays. You're saving the fucking prince president's daughter. Yeah.
00:19:19
Speaker
But Resident Evil 4 was such a departure, right? Because that's when it really went into action. Yeah, it it really it shed um its horror elements. Well, Resident Evil 4 does have some great horror elements. It's not... Well, like it's it's survivor elements, yeah right? Yeah.
00:19:39
Speaker
yeah that Yeah, that too. Because I would say the thing the the thing is like every aspect, it's a more puzzled. Resident Evil is very a puzzle-oriented kind of game.
00:19:51
Speaker
it Even down to like, should I fight this zombie and use like my last three bullets? Or should I just like yeah try to sneak past him or like knife his leg or whatever and then just run like hell because if I run into like a zombie I can't get past and I have no bullets like ah I game over have to start back from like a different save or something yeah and that would happen a lot like that's why it took me so long to beat the original game was because you would just get like you would soft lock yourself
00:20:24
Speaker
with like yeah Or at least i didn't i couldn't find any ammo. I couldn't find anything. and i don't know people that were I don't know how people could like kill zombies with knives. It's like the most realistic game ever. ain't killing a zombie with a knife. like Yeah, I self-locked myself on the ah remake of the original. Because I was in the room where you find the crows um that are like inside and it's a two-story section.
00:20:50
Speaker
And I didn't know there were any crows in there. Yeah, we're forced. Fucking like a... Like, zero health, so the crows just dive down, peck me, and then I'm dead. So I got, like, soft-locked on that, and I think the prior save was, like, an hour or two back, and i was like, fuck this.
00:21:06
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, I mean, it's... It's such a cool, it has such cool elements, the first game. I know we're just like, it's like, this is a fucking video game podcast. It's whatever a podcast. The main discussion will be more about movies. um The introduction to news is about anything.
00:21:23
Speaker
ah That's what I was thinking. I was like, we have like two segments of the show. It's like the main discussion, which is like more, you know, at film education, our education, discussion and then the whatever the fuck we want to talk about or know hopefully not you know too long or too uninteresting but yeah Resident Evil right like Trying to figure out how to beat that fucking plant. And it and then you realize you have to poison it.
00:21:50
Speaker
You don't fight it. You poison it. Right? And you have to like fucking find all the little ah chemicals to mix together to make the poison. yeah And it's like, dude, that was like the first boss in the game. And it's really cool. Yeah. No, I never actually beat Resident Evil because I kept getting stuck on like ah essentially puzzles.
00:22:09
Speaker
And I was like, fuck this. And then I'd forget. you know i So much time would go before I'd play it again. I'm not going to say like i I fucking beat that shit vanilla. I was on GameFAQs like, how the fuck do I find the poison to kill the plant? I was never good at doing that that kind of that kind of game. i just don't have the I always overlook things or something. And then it's like I get frustrated and i'm like, fuck this. That's why I like playing like Super Metroid. It's like...
00:22:37
Speaker
Walk, shoot. Well, Super Metroid had a little bit of puzzling. puzzle I'm too dumb for puzzles. Yeah, so... had a couple, but, you know... not It's not Resident Evil. How do you feel? Like, like are you hopeful considering the director? And I don't know. Did you read the article that you sent me?
00:22:55
Speaker
I was skimming it. I haven't read all. i I was just more interested in the actual topic of, I wanted to talk a little bit too about IP. Yeah.
00:23:06
Speaker
Because that's what the article was talking about a little bit as well, is like filmmakers as IP.
Intellectual Property and Storytelling
00:23:11
Speaker
Like some people are like so tied to franchises and the Like, Zack Greger hasn't made anything that's even close to, like, being an IP yet. He's been a very original filmmaker so far with Barbarian and Weapons. I'd say those are two ah very original films.
00:23:30
Speaker
ah I mean, yes, they they wear their references on their sleeves, but... But that's also kind of Resident Evil. I think we're kind of in a renaissance of video game adaptations.
00:23:41
Speaker
ah As schlocky and... um you know We talked about in the title, Art and Fart. ah right There's some beautiful farts.
00:23:56
Speaker
Yeah, I've been laying some beauties myself. um But I did read the article and it was kind of interesting. And I want to get your opinion on it.
00:24:07
Speaker
is a It's through Constantin Films and the CEO Bourbon. I might be pronouncing all this wrong because this is European studio. We drink bourbon. I don't know. I can't say his name. I think like German or something like that.
00:24:24
Speaker
Anyways, he's the one who seems to be spearheading the notion of making the director the IP and also kind of pushing what independent films are right now and pushing that market.
00:24:37
Speaker
So, you know, if you read the article, I think his words do sound very promising, um like something filmmakers like us would want to hear. You know, because I think you're like me where – You know, a lot of the companies have just had, have committed so much bad faith with IPs and have abused the fans' love for these franchises so much.
00:25:03
Speaker
But still, like, you know, Star Wars is just about dead to me. It certainly is in its current state. But if we waited like 10, 20 years for another Star Wars film and they kind of revamp it, re-approach it, you know, really be thoughtful of how they want to go about doing another one, I mean, I'd be all on board to watch it. If they're going to make a good Resident Evil, I'm on board. If they're going to make a good Batman movie, I'm on board. Like, if they're going to treat all of these IPs as really good films and really put in the time and effort, I'm on board. But it just seems like everyone's just trying to figure out how to get the most profit out of this as fast as possible. And then it's all like short-term thought and projection.
00:25:48
Speaker
What do you think? No, you're absolutely you're absolutely right. And I think you put, you nail it like you nailed the head, the you you hit the nail on the head a bunch of times when you just said, if the film is good, I will watch it.
00:26:02
Speaker
It's like, of course we like fucking IP. i mean, we fucking grew up with this shit. It's like a fucking nostalgia injection right into our dick, right? Like you feel like you're a kid watching that Super Barrio Brothers movie when he hits the little block and you hear the sound and you're like, i remember that. Like, I'll never forget that sound. yeah I remember it every fucking day when I see it. Right? Right.
00:26:23
Speaker
like Just make them good. the problem is they often just feel so soulless and and hollow. And the writing is is bad. And they make the they make these just weird changes that don't make sense to us as fans.
00:26:40
Speaker
And you are like i would the biggest example of this would be like in those Mila Jovovich Resident Evil films. It's like... what Why Atlas? What the fuck? like Why did they make a whole new character to base the franchise around?
00:26:54
Speaker
yeah i get it's they They made it work because Mila Jovich is hot and cool and yeah she's actually kind of a great action star. like I would say like oh yeah no shit. She might be one of my favorite action stars.
00:27:09
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. In general, male, female, whatever. Oh, really? Okay. I love me a Mila Jovovich movie, dude. Like, give me some Fifth Element. Give me ah that Monster Hunter movie she did in the land of the lost. I couldn't get through that one. Dog shit, but she was great.
00:27:29
Speaker
Sorry. Yeah, she is great. a blow my nose. Ah, you're sick too. I thought you sounded nasally. i've been I've been draining pretty bad today. i don't know if I'm sick or allergies, but I think it's the plague, maybe.
00:27:43
Speaker
i think you're sick. but ah Yeah, you know, I don't mind if they followed her around and made it about Alice. Look at him judging But just, ah you know, show respect to the video games and, uh-oh, the bandanas come on. Oh, shit. He ain't sick no more.
00:28:01
Speaker
He ain't sick no more. Level up. yeah Senpai! Banzai! Banzai! But you know, there's something I actually... Before we jump in the main discussion, let's go on a little tangent ah down memory lane. We're talking about nostalgia.
00:28:20
Speaker
Good film, bad film. The good, the bad, the ugly. What... What is like watchable now for this episode? Maybe I should have thought of that a little bit better. But I just wanted to say it's art. I just wanted to say fart and art. or yeah that was he' watched ham That was the only purpose.
00:28:39
Speaker
Yeah. oh yeah I liked it. I thought it okay. No, I like Cabinet a lot. I haven't been disappointed with the best pictures so far. like I haven't seen a movie where I was just like, ugh. I was talking to Katie about this. i was like, holy shit, there is not a bad best picture film this year. Even though it's like and Sinners. The worst film is Frankenstein. The worst film on the category is Frankenstein that I've seen.
00:29:05
Speaker
Frankenstein's one of I like that one. I mean, is it best picture? No. but No. it It delivers on exactly what it's supposed to, right? It's like this high adrenaline. It's like a the Christopher McCrory. I think he might even be the director of that. like this is the kind of This is his fucking bread and butter.
00:29:29
Speaker
i think I hope it's him that directed it. I can't remember who it is, but... ah just have a computer right in front of you. i was going to say, I'm literally sitting in front of a computer. You're literally in front of your computer.
00:29:41
Speaker
Let's see. It's directed by... No, Joseph Kaczynski. Christopher McCoy the other Mission Impossible director. the Joseph Kaczynski is the new Mission Impossible guy, right? And it's it's very much in that vein.
00:29:53
Speaker
It's in that Top Gun Maverick vein. you say that, it makes sense. That's why I liked F1. Is it isn't as good as Top Gun Maverick? No, but it's thrilling. It's exciting. Brad Pitt is fucking a goddamn godsend. That kid is cool and he's good. And Carrie Condon or whatever her name is, is hot as fuck. And she's great.
00:30:18
Speaker
um And then Harvey Burt him. like And the thing is, like no one's really like that evil in the movie too. like Which is a nice change of pace, right?
00:30:29
Speaker
Yeah. It was like, dude, I'm so sick of like, It's like bad writing and bad characters and just like almost like cartoonishly stupid villains. And it's just everything is just garbage. And F1 wasn't. It wasn't a masterpiece. well It wasn't pretending to be. Yeah. you know, dickhead.
00:30:50
Speaker
Well, you know, it's it's funny you mention this because I was getting the Plex onto my phone. So once I got it on the phone and I was able to stream it to the TV in our bedroom, ah mine and Karen's not mine and yours. that's Our bedroom's just of change. All right.
00:31:05
Speaker
But, ah you know, I was able to stream it. Rest in peace, man. Pulp Fiction. You have a certain section or there's a category in films that haven't been seen by like anyone, I think.
00:31:18
Speaker
But it's in the a catalog that you have. And so Say Anything was on there. So I put it on and I've seen it like once or twice before. And I was watching it again. I was like, damn, man, I forgot what this film is about at all.
00:31:35
Speaker
and But it was nice watching the film because no one was really evil. Everyone was kind of like good, just making mistakes. And no one was like this dweeb or this dork. Like no one was this caricature of a person. They were just people. And one person was a nerd who was very successful. And the other one was like a nerd, but very worldly. Like he had traveled. He was a kickboxing person.
00:32:05
Speaker
kickboxer and And a good guy that everyone liked. And so it was just really cool to see that kind of film, you know, where it's like, you don't have to have an end of the world thing. You don't have to have a villain who are a drama where the kids are dead or are this really super heavy thing. Sometimes you could just have a really good film that's touching But also dealing with more real life issues where we're privileged to be in the situation where we're at, where we're not dealing with death at all all quarters, right? It's, you know, so like our biggest issues is keeping the lights on or a roof over our head. And that's something relatable, you know, and it's not, it's dramatic, but it's not end of the world dramatic. Like you'll survive if you don't have a home.
00:32:53
Speaker
It won't be easy. It'll be miserable, but it's not like, That modern feels where everything has to be an end of the world type event, you know, and so it was refreshing to watch say anything because it was like, yeah, you know, it kind of sucks with the girl you love ah treats you like shit and gives you a pen and tells you to just write her or, you know, when you cheat the IRS s and ah they're coming after you.
00:33:15
Speaker
Yeah, that does suck, you know, then they're threatening you with some jail time. It's like, oh God damn it. I'm going to go to jail for nine months. That fucking sucks. ah Yeah, you know, that does suck. um but But nowadays, it's like, you know, if you go to jail, it's because you're on death row or something.
00:33:32
Speaker
but But not only that, it's I don't necessarily need you want to say it's the stakes. It's it's like, there's almost like a There you go, the stakes. God, I hate to say it because it's so it's ah it's such a it's such a clicky term, but the virtue signaling in a sense...
00:33:50
Speaker
And I know it's like, oh, there it's like oh this guy must be MAGA now. He said virtue signaling is bad. It's it's not that it's bad, it's just annoying as fuck. I mean, like, ah there are modern film, a lot of the time it's like it's like, okay, this guy's the bad guy. He's like an evil, unforgettable, like, super Nazi.
00:34:13
Speaker
And that's the bad guy. Right? Like, There's not as much subtlety anymore because you can't be subtle because you have to like absolutely be on one side or the other.
00:34:25
Speaker
And if you waver at all, you're an enemy. And I think that makes storytelling less interesting because it's not reality at all. It's like not even close to reality.
00:34:38
Speaker
and yeah Yeah, no, that's a perfect point that you have there because it's actually kind of nice. want to interrupt you as much, but that's actually a really beautiful point because you know what I always think of when you are what I thought of when you said that was diehard was diehard where, you know, ah you know, there was a part of me that wanted Hans Gruber to get away.
Villains and Storytelling Techniques
00:34:58
Speaker
Yeah, I mean he killed a couple of people, sure, but you know, shot Takagi right in the face. Yeah, he did. He did kill quite a few people, but he wouldn't ask. Wait, no, he was going to kill everyone ah ah when they evacuated. Huh?
00:35:11
Speaker
We just never got to see that because Java players. Yeah, he's gonna he was going to blow up the roof. Yeah, he was going to blow everyone up up there. Well, I still kind of wanted Hans Gruber to get away a little bit.
00:35:22
Speaker
You know, he he was kind of a bad guy to root for. where Like, you're right. Nowadays, it's like, no, you can't root for the bad guy because they're Nazis. It's like, well, yeah, I'm not going to root for Hitler in this.
00:35:33
Speaker
Of course. Yeah, exactly. But then again, you know, it's at stakes, right? Like everything's elevated. Like the ante's always up. Yes. To simplify it too, right? And then it's always, and especially this might be more harping on ah superhero films, but almost every superhero film also has like, it's like there's the bad guy and then there's the 95,000 faceless extras slash CGI characters that they have to fight that are like carbon copies of each other, which is why I fucking can't stand the John Wick sequels.
00:36:07
Speaker
Because there's just like 9 million guys that he has to go through. I'm like, did he it's like he like literally like murder everyone in that town? Because everyone's an assassin?
00:36:20
Speaker
like Wouldn't that be a great John Wick sequel though? Like everyone's afraid of him because he's just going around killing everyone because he's defending himself. And it's like, no, John Wick, I'm just cooking. This knife was not meant for you, man. I just got to cut i just got to cut the carrots, buddy.
00:36:34
Speaker
He cuts your fingers off. No, John Wick. No. okay And is there's literally just a John Wick movie where every every human is dead and he's just like the last man standing. it's like and And then he can go really go around killing all the dogs.
00:36:51
Speaker
He can go around killing all the dogs and then kind of comes back around full circle. And he's like, no, no, I'm the evil one. They keep asking me, am i back?
00:37:03
Speaker
Well, yeah, I'm back to kill everyone. Dun, dun, dun. You know, there you go. John Wick, chapter 69. um Fucking dark garbage. and was Speaking of garbage, I guess we, if you want, if you're ready, we can jump into our our main discussion, um which we've kind of hinted on. I think we've done a good job of ah getting people in the mood of... of ah what we're going to talk about. So I have a quote here from the, some people might say great.
00:37:37
Speaker
Some people might say problematic. Some people might say, who cares? But Alfred Hitchcock once said, to make a great film, you need three things, the script, the script, and the script.
00:37:52
Speaker
So listen up, yeah everyone out there. Listen to good old Alfie. I wanted to talk about yeah what makes a film good or dare we say great.
00:38:03
Speaker
You want to take a stab at that there, buddy? Well, I mean... If we knew what the solution was to that, if we knew the magic soup to all that, we wouldn't be on Twitch Shadows podcast with only two viewers.
00:38:17
Speaker
So i think that's difficult. but um ah So I'm going to kind of move on to what you had next in the notes because I did answer this, but I think you had really good follow-ups. And you put, we discuss and watch a lot of films from random YouTubers, hopeful of Akira Kurosawa. Yeah.
00:38:38
Speaker
There is probably no argument to be made that research resource, experience, and talent all play a role. What do you say to the talentless broke fuck that dreams of being a filmmaker?
00:38:51
Speaker
I mean, we are talentless broke fucks.
00:38:56
Speaker
I did write that, yes. um Yeah, you did write that. So so let you know let me rally it back to you. like Because I think with ah with what you wanted to talk about, we do it we do get as close as we can within our limited scope on what makes a great film.
00:39:16
Speaker
And so I think if we kind of start to unravel that onion, we might get the audience there with us. I think it's that if you have a good story to tell, you can make up for a lot of essentially what you're lacking of.
00:39:37
Speaker
And what I mean by lacking is like most of us don't have million plus dollars to go and make a film. And we're going to try anyway. So you could scratch resources off. Most of us don't have experience that of hours and hours on sets to that doing this thing. It's a lot of our first time jumping in.
00:40:00
Speaker
And then talent is it is what it is. Some of us are Stanley Kubrick and most of us aren't. um yeah And the way you kind of make up for that is discipline, hard work, study.
00:40:15
Speaker
you can't have your you have to... deny your ego and these are things that don't cost money they don't cost like you get it with experience a little bit if you're not completely jaded at the end of your projects and you don't have this absolutely this because the that the dangerous thing about being a filmmaker is you have to be delusional to do it there has to be a level of delusion to be like I'm gonna like this is what I'm gonna do
00:40:48
Speaker
Delusion and innocence, right? There has to be a level of innocence too to it. Because the fact of the matter is, in 1993 or whatever, when Kevin Smith was making Clerks, there were probably only like...
00:41:05
Speaker
maybe like 10,000 Kevin Smiths. There are probably like 500,000 Kevin Smiths today making films of varying levels of quality and expertise.
00:41:17
Speaker
And cutting through that is... i Right? That's where there's there's definitely some luck. You just can't... It's not the greatest one wins out anymore in a sense as well.
00:41:29
Speaker
It's that determination and... Honestly, it's just blind luck. like how I don't know how else to really say it, but if you're out there and you're listening to this and you're thinking like you you know you're also townless broke fuck and you are lacking the things that and you need to make the film the exact way you want it, I i don't want to say that
00:41:52
Speaker
some of the best films have been made because of the ingenuity and ah the fact that they had to work with a smaller budget that allowed that film to be the great film that it is.
00:42:09
Speaker
um You are Just because you have less resources and experience and talent doesn't mean that you can't, like, you know, fucking persevere through this.
00:42:23
Speaker
Like, you can do it, like... i we all have to like believe that we can, right? um Yeah. What's the saying? ah
00:42:37
Speaker
It's like when you don't have any resources, it breeds ingenuity or something like that. I can't remember there's like a better saying, but go ahead, buddy. Your hand was raised. I kind of just wanted to to say this. you know When I was thinking about ah the notes and what to write,
00:42:54
Speaker
You know, certainly there is an element of luck. I don't think that's deniable. don't think you can deny that regardless. Even if you have like a $200 million dollars production, there's a certain element of luck. For instance, look at The Thing, look at Blade Runner, right? Weren't both of those like financial failures in the wake of E.T.?
00:43:16
Speaker
Yes. And then today, you know you look at them and they're considered some of the greatest films alongside E.T. there But definitely Blade Runner in the forefront. And the thing right behind that, like those are considered some of the best films from those respective directors.
Luck, Discipline, and Filmmaking Success
00:43:35
Speaker
And they definitely had the funding to do it. So when I think of luck And then making a good film, you know, I think of it like a yin-yang kind of thing. Like, yes, there is some luck, but there also isn't.
00:43:51
Speaker
And then, yes, there isn't luck, but there also is. You know, and and those two things kind of working in tandem and hopefully working together in your benefit.
00:44:05
Speaker
Or do you think it's like purely a luck-based thing? Which maybe it is. I mean, maybe it really is just purely a luck-based thing, especially saturation becomes more and To your point, to your point it's it's unfair to be so succinct and say it's it's one thing or another. Sometimes it is just pure luck.
00:44:28
Speaker
the right person at the right time watched your movie and like actually connected with it enough to like reach out to you. And they have the resources to literally make you happen that. And that has happened, right? That that's a thing that happens. Like, look at what's a Sandberg, uh,
00:44:49
Speaker
Pony. Pony Smasher. Pony Smasher. Right? he He came from nothing. He was just a dude in like Sweden or Norway fucking some place in Scandinavia.
00:45:00
Speaker
And was like making short films with his wife that because that's what he loved to do And he's just plucked out of the millions of short filmmakers.
00:45:11
Speaker
I mean, is lights out Lights Out is a great short. That's not so fair because Lights Out is a great short. like it's a very It's a brilliant little two-minute short.
00:45:24
Speaker
it's It's quite brilliant. Or at least ingenious, if you will. can you Can you argue against that in a sense to say, or just to straw man that argument for a second with there are probably um thousand great shorts that i just have never been seen by anybody?
00:45:43
Speaker
Yes, because I think they haven't been seen by anybody. I think that it is quite difficult to be that novel and successful. Like, for instance...
00:45:55
Speaker
You know, there was Blair Witch Project, there was Paranormal Activity. But even with Blair Witch Project, which I think was the biggest success of them all, you know, people really thought that they were watching eight real life thing.
00:46:09
Speaker
Like no one was quite sure if these people really did go missing in the forest. And I remember when Blair Witch came out. I mean, i saw at theaters with i saw it I saw it in theaters with my cousin Sean and we were like, shit, is are we literally watching like real shit happening? Like, do they capture real paranormal X-Files shit on here?
00:46:32
Speaker
And obviously they didn't, but they were the first to to do it and the first to go that deep. into it, right? Because they made websites, they really pushed the marketing, and they really blurred the lines. I mean, one of the reasons why the Coen brothers are so successful, in my opinion, is because for Fargo, they put, this is based on a true story.
00:46:54
Speaker
Which Fargo was not based on a true story whatsoever. But they lied on it. But because they said that, that got it a lot more recognition. And I remember at the time, people were talking about that.
00:47:07
Speaker
And that was a ah topic of discussion for Fargo. And then after that, I mean, the Coens are amazing. Well, but that helped them to get notice. and And I think that, yes, luck plays an element, but also you got to put in the effort. If you don't put in the effort, you're never going to get lucky.
00:47:27
Speaker
you You at least have to position yourself to be lucky. Oh, ah yeah, I think... ah you know to be realistic. And then there was something wanted to say because there's I'm always fascinated by this. And I'll bring it up every time I can. I probably can if possible. But to talk on your current point first,
00:47:50
Speaker
it's best to always hedge your bets towards the most success that you can without having to rely on luck.
00:48:03
Speaker
never rely on luck. Right? Always go in with your best fighting chance. Like if, yeah if you, if you can, like, you know, so like we always said with dickhead, it's like, we're trying to make the best thing that we can make with what we have.
00:48:22
Speaker
And that we so take that seriously. we're trigger like That's why it's part of the reason it's taken so long is because we've seen some potential and we're going to make it the best fucking thing that we can.
00:48:33
Speaker
um But I want to go back to what you're talking about with the Coen brothers and this idea of the marketing end. The Kimiko story, if i'm if if I'm remembering the name right.
00:48:46
Speaker
But the Japanese woman that traveled to Fargo to look for the missing money and died yeah froze to death in the snow. and it's like, yeah that yeah shows you the power, right?
00:48:59
Speaker
Like, I mean, rationally, we all have to kind of understand that anything we see on film is fake or is faked. Like, sure, there's probably been, you know, there's been actual animal deaths on film.
00:49:14
Speaker
Right? And it's never... yeah It's probably never okay. would say that's probably a safe thing to say. It's Cannibal Holocaust, Apocalypse Now. Come and see. Right? It's probably never okay to actually harm animals.
00:49:31
Speaker
Yeah, the cow. Well, in Apocalypse Now, they were trying to actually sacrifice a cow, and then Francis Ford Coppola got permission to film it. Well, my understanding is it and about that story, because from watching the documentary...
00:49:44
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Right. It was like, hey, like, this is they're to, they're going they're going to kill this thing anyway. Like this is going to feed the village. Yeah. But the point, the point is like, we don't need to capture unnecessary suffering on film.
00:49:59
Speaker
I mean, sure. It's more real, but I don't know. Maybe there's an argument to be made there. You should watch sentimental value and tell me what you think. Yeah. But what about documentary, right? Because you want to capture the suffering as it happens, right? I mean, I watch so many animal planets or National Geographic documentaries.
00:50:20
Speaker
So I guess I would only specifically relate to fictional, right? I would say documentary then there's some films that blur the line between fictional and nonfiction. The goal of documentary is to capture the truth.
00:50:35
Speaker
While I'm sure some art fuck, fart fuck is going to say, well, the goal of narrative film is to capture the truth. No, it's fake. yeah You're not actually like in love with this person. You're not, you know, like none of these things are actually happening, like regardless of whatever yourself based where you are really saying, like right Texas Chainsaw Massacre is not real.
00:51:01
Speaker
right? Yeah. Leatherface. There's not some guy named Leatherface sitting in a chair like with his parents and, you know, zombie grandpa or whatever. That's not real. I thought Leatherface was Trump.
00:51:13
Speaker
But documentaries about animal cruelty and factory farming and things like that. Those things are real. And yeah the graphic mix of that is to employ, it's like those, that emotional and manipulation is kind of acceptable in the sense that like we should know what's happening. What's capturing the truth, right?
00:51:38
Speaker
Yeah. Our A-truth is capturing A-truth. A-truth. Maybe the most yeah diplomatic. Yeah. It's... It's not narrative.
00:51:50
Speaker
And we live in the narrative, which is we are designing and creating fictional realities that we hope give you something, a real ah reaction.
00:52:06
Speaker
ah Can you recap what you would tell telling us broke fucks that dream of being a filmmaker? What do they need to do? To become filmmaker. would say... are are You know what? Scratch that. What do you think you need to do to become a filmmaker?
00:52:23
Speaker
Because, I mean, you are a filmmaker, but you know what I mean. Like someone who is actually getting paid to do this shit and where you can focus like your actual day job is filmmaking. I would say the thing you have to do is you have to...
00:52:38
Speaker
One, you have to destroy the the... Not destroy, because I mean, that's strong word, but you have to realize and the reality and not that romanticize like the filmmaker life.
00:52:53
Speaker
Because really, it's excruciating, painful, hard work and not anything that you would like necessarily love. ah like And it's so risky. And you have to be kind of insane to want to do this for like a full-time job.
00:53:14
Speaker
But for us actual talentless broke fucks, it's discipline, man. It's simple. you got to have to You have to be disciplined. You have to... It's not okay to ah just kind of be idle ah because it is... It's like but we've talked about this a million times on the show, right? Writing and creativity, it's a muscle.
00:53:38
Speaker
um You can have sparks of inspiration at different times, but the main thing is You have to exercise that muscle to maintain greatness. like don't rely Don't rely on the exception. don't Because I think that's what every filmmaker falls into, a trap they fall into. They so they read the Kevin Smith story. They read shaen Carruth's story about making Primer. They read about the guy that did... ah
00:54:12
Speaker
but ah Lights Out, David Sandberg. They read these stories and they're like, I could be that guy. No, you won't be. like You don't count on that to be your reality.
00:54:26
Speaker
Just don't. like If you go in with that expectation, you are going to fucking kill yourself trying to do this. You have to look and be like, I'm the guy that struggled every day for 90 years, and I just got paid for my first movie on my 91st birthday.
00:54:44
Speaker
like That's the reality, unfortunately, for most of us. And if you're not ready to accept that, then like you want to be a grip on dickhead too?
00:55:00
Speaker
Yeah. And what about you, man? You got some thoughts on this, I'm sure. Let me drink for a minute. Yeah, if you want to hear my thoughts, I'll share them with you, buddy.
00:55:12
Speaker
Because I wrote them down. I did work on this. I felt bad because you were like, hey, Steven, do you want to pitch it and throw some notes? And I was like, yeah, man, I got you, I got you and then And then nothing.
00:55:23
Speaker
And that was mainly because, well, I've been sick, but mostly I think I've been burnt out. And then I looked on Reddit and I couldn't find any of the stuff I saved to actually talk about.
00:55:36
Speaker
Except for that one dude who just died from Euphoria at 53. Because he started a, ah I guess the family started a GoFundMe for the children.
00:55:48
Speaker
And I thought that might be an interesting topic, but I really didn't follow up on it. Anyways, long tangent. He wasn't James Van Der Beek. He wasn't James. And that's true.
00:55:58
Speaker
And that's the truth to it. And you know what? That's the sad truth to it because he probably, the family probably won't get as much money. Yeah, he ain't gonna get that James Van Der Beek money.
00:56:09
Speaker
hate James Van Der Beek. That's why we don't have that many viewers. But there's a sad truth to that. A disgustingly sad truth to it. And then also a disgustingly sad truth to the fact that they're asking us for money when we have no money.
00:56:23
Speaker
Especially right now. I mean, like... I would give James Van Der Beek's family $5, but you know, ain't got fucking $5. And there's a lot of other people I think that are in that same situation.
00:56:37
Speaker
Anyways, let's not talk about the debt. Because they're not here to defend themselves and all the money they make. But what I would say to telling us broke fucks that dream of being a filmmaker is it's actually quite simple.
00:56:53
Speaker
I think you, again, as you always do, buddy, you nailed the nail on the head. You hit the nail on the head. There we go. And that it requires discipline.
00:57:04
Speaker
And that's really all it it is. And by that, Work within your budget making films or shorts. Help other filmmakers on set and do that for free if need be. Write, write, and write scripts with someone to give knowledgeable critique because you need that feedback.
00:57:28
Speaker
But you need good feedback. That's really important. You need really good critique. And you really need to spend time looking for that person who can help to elevate your writing.
00:57:41
Speaker
Because if you can write, you you'll understand story, which films are. Watch movies, read books, and then probably tutor under a director.
00:57:53
Speaker
ah For instance, yeah ah if I ever find time, I do plan to assist like local theater directors around, probably at the college. And just be like, hey, man, I'll be your assistant for free. These are the hours I can work up for free. So, you know, i get premium hours that I request and I'll do whatever you want for free. So, you know, take it because it's free.
00:58:18
Speaker
But, you know, that way I can watch how they work and and learn from them and and just kind of steal the elements that I think they possess that are good and bring about the results that they're hoping for.
00:58:32
Speaker
And i I think that's all that you have to do is, you know, you just have to be committed to this craft or to this art form, I should say. And you have to have the discipline to keep up with it.
00:58:47
Speaker
And it doesn't have to be like, oh, I got to work on a set. I got to work on a set or I got assist a director. I got assist a assistant director. No, sometimes there's days off or weeks off, months off where you get to read books because that's going to become the most important thing.
00:59:02
Speaker
Or you get to watch movies because that's going to become the most important thing. I mean, if Dickhead is successful at in any way, it's because you and I grew up watching movies.
00:59:14
Speaker
And that's how we learned how to make Dickhead. But of course, reading books, it's a little bit more it's insightful. It's a little more knowledgeable. It's a little more deep. Yep. And so you sure that you need to spend that time.
00:59:27
Speaker
Like shadowing your local director, they're going to get you so far. But at some point, you know, you maybe it's good to read Milton. You know, or Dante.
00:59:38
Speaker
You know, maybe they might be a little more insightful into some beautiful storytelling and and approaches to that. um Same thing with Shakespeare. You know, you got you gotta to put in that time and you got to just have that discipline to put in that time.
00:59:54
Speaker
And that's really all it takes. But that's hard, right? It's like working out. No one wants to do it. We just want to eat chimichangas all day and jerk off and play magic.
01:00:07
Speaker
And that's fun. That's a good life. but you're not going to succeed in the more difficult aspects of existence. Yeah. and it's of any internet Of any discipline.
01:00:18
Speaker
Yeah. And it's um it's a cold truth, right? like None of us are owed anything. Yeah. As much as we could fight and scream and argue, if anything I know to be true is that we aren't owed shit.
01:00:39
Speaker
yeah Everything we have we have to fight for, tooth and nail. um And if you want to keep it, you have to just you have to fight just as hard. And that's what's hard about it is that struggle, it has a weight.
01:00:56
Speaker
And Each and every one of us is Atlas carrying our own world on our backs. And the problem is is those worlds, they change size change sizes as we grow.
01:01:09
Speaker
Sometimes we can bear the weight no problem. And it's like we have no care in the world, right? It's like, damn, I got a comma in my bank account. Life is good.
01:01:20
Speaker
And then you're like, well, I'm getting notifications because i have no money. or you know i you It kind of sucks to talk about how much money is involved in filmmaking, but it's a fucking hard, cold truth, man.
01:01:40
Speaker
like If everyone was just working for free to do this, we we would do it all the time. it would we would it would be like a nonstop endeavor. But the fact is, is we want to have want to pay people to do this. And we want people to be we want to everyone to know that they're worth their time and effort.
01:02:01
Speaker
And we also acknowledge that ah you cannot just work people to death for free. um The other thing too is it's really fucking hard to like to finish these things sometimes. I mean, 10 years on dickhead. I know it. it I mean, i I cringe to say it myself, but it's true.
01:02:26
Speaker
It's absolutely true. like We've taken a very long time, way longer than anyone has any right. um But part of that is, and kind of what we said is,
01:02:40
Speaker
we've We wanted to we want to make get it right. And I hope that it shows in the end.
01:02:53
Speaker
um It's a cold, hard truth that there's a good chance that it it was never going to be worth the 10 years. And that's just a simple fact.
01:03:07
Speaker
But for us, it we had no choice because we can't go back in time. um it was always in It was always in earnest. we've always been we' We've always worked in earnest to make the film. the but Oh, Stephen's showing me the empty bottle.
01:03:28
Speaker
Yeah, he's... he he You think he's sick now, ladies and gentlemen. Wait till that wild turkey hits. You know, I'm drinking a fine sea bottle of Buffalo buffalo Trace myself. i got it nu Well, I got the wild turkey you know left here. But don't worry, I'll refill.
01:03:49
Speaker
No, I really love the wild turkey 101. That's kind of my go-to. But i ah the Buffalo Trace... um It was the same price today as the 101.
01:04:00
Speaker
And was like, yeah, let me. Oh, shit. Yeah, let me mix it up a little bit. yeah Let me mix it up a little bit. And you know what? I prefer the 101.
01:04:13
Speaker
What's that fancy one we get that's like 80 to. Will it. Or 70 to like 100. Will it. Damn, love Will it. Will it ride. That might be my favorite. That's it That might be my favorite right now because, dude, it's top every time I have it, I'm just like, I haven't had anything better. I think I've had a few that are a little more expensive.
01:04:33
Speaker
But, dude, it's like, yeah, will it taste better?
01:04:37
Speaker
That's like a perfect rye to put in the glass, and you're not going to pound it because it's so heavy. And then you're sip on it. And by the time you get to the bottom, you're going to be fucked.
01:04:51
Speaker
You're going fill up a good buzz. that's what's That's what's great. You know what gives me a good buzz, buddy? A good script. And you and I talk about it. I don't know. Did you want to intro us into the next bullet?
01:05:04
Speaker
Well, it all starts with the script. We know that, we preach that, but it really doesn't end there.
Editing and Story Development
01:05:10
Speaker
The script, the story, it never stops being read written until picture lock.
01:05:16
Speaker
With Dickhead, we struggled to maintain the spirit of what we wrote with our edit for years. And finally, we were able to pull it back to something we knew.
01:05:28
Speaker
Buddy. Do you think that was a bit of luck or that we were always going to find those nuggets of the story? Well, when I wrote this, my immediate answer was we kind of got lucky.
01:05:42
Speaker
ah That was what I initially thought. But the more and more I thought about it, I think despite our nativity, our ignorance, just the fact that we were just getting you know the new kids new kids on the block, dumb new kids on the block,
01:06:00
Speaker
Yeah. We always, we believed in this fucking story. um Even though we had so much pushback in some aspects from our actors, which I mean, literally we took a lot of that to heart and we changed the script a lot. We shot a lot that we did not want to shoot.
01:06:19
Speaker
And that's just a plain cold truth. I mean, I've said that twice now. im Sorry. That's kind of an annoying saying. I won't say it again. but Well, it's because it is cold and it is harsh, right?
01:06:30
Speaker
I mean, like i don't know what you said earlier, but essentially the world doesn't stop for us, right? We're not that special. And so we have to put in that effort to get noticed.
01:06:43
Speaker
Cold, harsh truth, man, right? Yeah.
01:06:46
Speaker
I mean, yeah it was in reference to what I said while you were well you had stepped out. ah it was I said that the cold hard truth is that we could have spent 10 years on dickhead for nothing. like It just ends up in the bottom of the 2B barrel.
01:07:04
Speaker
and Well, hey, there's still time, buddy. I mean, there's still time. ah That barrel goes deep. Yeah. But you know like I want to know, like what how did you feel essentially like your first reactions from seeing footage and what Because I remember like when we were doing the edit, you're always like, I want the script. like I want to have the script like near me.
01:07:32
Speaker
But I'm like, buddy, just don't do that to yourself. thatop Because I think the script our script for Ticket is pretty strong. and like There's a lot of monologues, but I think the actual like nut and bolts of the script is very strong. like We have a lot of... like linking of, you know, right. The story builds, builds to something and every character has a little bit of growth and change or not necessarily growth, but they definitely have arcs.
01:08:02
Speaker
I mean, most of yeah our characters devolve into something very primal and, you know, and then, and then that's me like stroking my own, our egos, I guess, ah to just nut all over ourselves because Maybe I'm crazy, but please, you talk you talk for a bit.
01:08:20
Speaker
Yeah, well, I'll just read what I wrote because, I mean, it captures what I wanted to say, and especially when I was more sober. And this is regarded to luck or that we found those nuggets of the story along the way.
01:08:37
Speaker
And I would certainly say it was both or it's been both. I read the script like a year ago and was surprised by how much of what we captured, of how much what was captured was right there in the script.
01:08:54
Speaker
We also spent a lot of time on casting. And I think we did an amazingly well job, even with changes and people dropping out at the start, right? Because we had some actors we had in mind for specific roles that then um kind of walked away, essentially. Backed out.
01:09:13
Speaker
Yeah. And i wrote, I think it was also luck. For instance, I think we were lucky that the actors knew what we were doing for the most part because we didn't provide much, if any direction, especially in the vein of rehearsal.
01:09:31
Speaker
So most instances, the actors figured things out or were able to on set when we had to do another take. Most of all, I know for the edit,
01:09:42
Speaker
We were just going with the best takes and trying to find the best ways to arrange the shots to make the most fun and entertaining scene while trying to maintain sense of story.
01:09:52
Speaker
And luckily, we cut something together that is much stronger than I would have hoped for. And that's luck, but also not because of the amount of edits and time we put into the script.
01:10:07
Speaker
So I think within ours, you know, there is a yin and yang because, like I said, when I read the script, I was quite surprised because there were some really funny moments. It was like, damn. For instance, so the one that stands out to me by far is ah when Toasty, played by Gianluca, is in the garage and he says, Kumbaya, motherfucker.
01:10:29
Speaker
And I think that's just so fucking funny. I do. i find that quite funny. And the fact, I was like, damn, Tom, he came up with that on his own? Like, damn, that's cool. And you're like, no, man, that's actually in the script.
01:10:40
Speaker
And then I went back and I read the script. And sure enough, it says, kumbaya, motherfucker. And was like, goddamn, that's fucking cool. Like, that was cool that we wrote in these elements that Even if it wasn't – it was cool that we wrote in all of these elements that played together because some of it wasn't intentional.
01:11:01
Speaker
And it still was cohesive enough to play together when we cut everything out. For instance – We originally had a scene with Jennifer and Richard when they first meet, and Jennifer goes on this long exposition of how women are treated, how Wonder Woman is objectified within comics. And, you know, it was essentially the objectification of women and and such.
01:11:28
Speaker
And... And we kind of captured this dynamic between who Jennifer was, who Richard was within the script, how they played together. Like that was the, that scene was the building blocks of who our characters were or who were, who, who we were going to follow.
01:11:45
Speaker
And then we cut it because it fucking sucked. But then we wrote later on that the characters are still kind of dealing with the events from the previous night.
01:11:55
Speaker
And then they actually take some time to to talk about it. and ah And it's supposed to go a little deeper into what happened. Like, why did Richard leave that night so early? And, you know, kind of having this little back and forth, the kind of the issues of...
01:12:10
Speaker
of that night that we weren't really privy to until the audience is finally exposed to like, hey, you know, like I wanted to do this with you, but you didn't want to do this. You just wanted to rant and not pay attention. And, you know, we have that little dynamic plane.
01:12:25
Speaker
But because we cut ah Jennifer and Richard, we were like, oh, fuck, how are we going to do this? But then luckily we had wrote this other scene where they actually confront each other on this topic.
01:12:36
Speaker
And then that's also character building scene. And then we realized, fortunately, through edit and kind of going through it, is that, yeah, we didn't need the previous scene because we have enough in this other scene that establishes what we're trying to do. And it even does it more intelligently because we're, while we are telling without showing, we we're giving just enough to place these nuggets into a much larger world that's existing. And so you can kind of understand the characters um from yeah from the audience's own perspective as like, hey, maybe Richard's a little too needy.
01:13:24
Speaker
Hey, maybe Jennifer's a little too mean, even though you don't see it, but we're kind of implanting that into the audience. And then it and then it does actually pay off. And so, because it was funny, when there was the first edit that you did, you took like some of the best takes we had and you created this comedy and it was a really funny film.
01:13:47
Speaker
and it was like, okay, we could make Dickhead funny as it was always meant to be. But it was like, hey, let's lean into the comedy elements. Yeah. Right. Because I think if I could say so, that dickhead was kind of this dramedy where it it had very comedic elements where we wink at the audience and we just have fun. But it also had some very dramatic audiences where people are getting date raped and ah someone's father has killed Osama bin Laden by sacrifice of dickhead.
01:14:16
Speaker
bait Baby. Baby grenade. So we have these these wildly, i mean these wild extremes, right? We have these polar extremes.
01:14:28
Speaker
We have these polar extremes. And... I don't even know what my point was. But we have these polar extremes. Oh, yeah, yeah. And and you, of course, you you leaned into the comedy elements of the film, which were good. And it was like, hey, if we can't be dramatic or scary, let's be funny.
01:14:48
Speaker
And I think that was a very intelligent approach to take the film. And the film kind of has maintained that kind of maybe shell or core to it. But... By going through the edit and working on it more, you know, we eventually kind of found our way back to the original script where it does have a lot of heart and it has a lot of drama.
01:15:09
Speaker
ah We eventually coined it as like a soap opera horror film, right? Because it has such just melodramatic moments and But you you feel for the characters. I mean, i i maybe i do we do because we wrote it and we've been working on it so long. But, you know, I feel for Richard.
01:15:28
Speaker
I wish things didn't work out the way they did for him. I wish she could have been different. I feel for Jennifer. I really wish things could have been different for her.
01:15:39
Speaker
And so there is an emotional attachment. And I think we did capture that. And then that's where the luck is because because we saw that we had a comedic film and we could lean into that. But through examining and rearranging pieces and working on it, we organically found ourselves back in a circular motion kind of towards the original script we wrote.
01:16:05
Speaker
And that's where the luck falls because we could have just been this comedic kind of silly, stupid story, but we actually ended up kind of coming back around to what our original intention was and even surpassed that in some instances.
01:16:18
Speaker
um and In fact, probably in all instances, we actually surpassed our original aim um and created something that's a lot more intelligent and thoughtful.
01:16:29
Speaker
And that's that's where the luck is for us. I think you put that quite beautifully. And to just add like a little bit of that that sugar on top, I would say that part of it, at least from my perspective, and I'm not going to speak for you, you can speak for yourself on this.
01:16:48
Speaker
I just kind of, and I think I've talked about this a few times, but I honestly felt like I just lacked the confidence to be able to um take myself and ourselves seriously enough to give the credence to what we tried. Because a lot of times we'll we'll make a joke of it.
01:17:09
Speaker
And we'll always try to find the joke. We're always trying to find the joke. It feels like you know whenever we're writing something. think that's undermine ourselves? And I think it is to undermine ourselves because there's part of us that's afraid to take ourselves seriously when it comes to drama. And when it comes to being real.
01:17:32
Speaker
Right? Openness. One of the jokes in the movie is like, his is the dude but jerking off on his sister Which, right, to us, it's like, ah, we're laughing our asses off fucking writing in this, thinking about it, setting it up, shooting it. We're laughing our asses off. But when you actually watch the film, it's like, why were we laughing? We're sick fucks. Like, ah what were we thinking?
01:17:59
Speaker
What were we thinking? It's not it's it's only funny because... of like the behind the scenes context and, and the fact that, you know, we had just had this sick, darker than black sense of humor.
01:18:15
Speaker
And it's funny in a gallows sense of humor, right? Yes. And that's what I mean. When I say it's a, there's, there was, there's a defense mechanism that,
01:18:31
Speaker
We are, I don't want, like i said, I don't want to speak for you because and maybe this resonates. It's like twin shadows, baby could speak for me. And it's, I, I can say this truthfully. I honestly didn't believe we could do the edit.
01:18:48
Speaker
I honestly didn't think we could do something really good when we, then that's why it took so long for me to like really do the first. You never shared that with me before. I was like, that's why I always thought we had to we were going to have to hire an editor to fix the film.
01:19:06
Speaker
And i was i've always was kind of nervous about it because I was like, I don't know if I have... the smarts or the the skills because you have to like do this. It's a job. like but People win Oscars for editing, like Emmys, like Sean, or not Sean, Andre. like they wouldn't edit They fucking win awards for this kind of shit.
01:19:27
Speaker
It's like, dude, we're fucking we're fucking the new kids on the block with the capital R word. you know It's... ah what like what What do we know about editing and fucking writing and storytelling and fucking Stanley Kubrick and Akira Kurosawa and George Malay, right?
01:19:47
Speaker
We're not these fucking people, but you don't have to be. And I think that's part of dispelling the romanticism. We love movies so much that it's like we over-romanticize the but the creation of it. Like,
01:20:02
Speaker
You hold James Cameron up as a god, right? James Cameron is a god. I fucking kind of hate James Cameron. I'm not a huge yeah Cameron guy. um yeah I love Terminator.
01:20:14
Speaker
T2's great. True Lies, okay. Aliens. I don't think it's good at Alien. but Aliens is great. yeah It is, but I digress. i'm i'm i'm i I'm off in the weeds, as they say. I've i've left the path.
01:20:33
Speaker
i'm going get Let me ah get back to my my initial point here. and it's
01:20:41
Speaker
If you don't believe in yourself, this is not the business for you. That stink is the ah that's stink is pugnant.
01:20:53
Speaker
It's reproachable. No one wants to be around the, oh, I'm so shitty. Like, please pity me and watch my movie. Like, go suck a dick. Like, you know how we fucking work to make these things.
01:21:07
Speaker
And i think part of me was like, fuck, like we worked our asses off. Like, why can't, why can't the, like that miracle editor exist? I remember that was why I was so excited about Sean was I was, I literally thought we were going to see something that would like change our lives.
01:21:23
Speaker
Yeah. And it did because we got slapped in the face with the reality. You were right. And it was no one's going to give a shit about your film, but you. the And no one's going give a shit about the film, but you.
01:21:38
Speaker
as And that's just, the you know, I'm going to say it again for the third time. That's such just the cold, hard truth. no one's going to give No one's going to care about that film succeeding as much as you.
01:21:50
Speaker
Your actors will care. ah They'll care a lot, but not as much as you. They're with you until they're they're not At the end of the day, that's why I'm so glad it's been you and I, buddy, because we've been able to lift our each other up, I hope.
01:22:09
Speaker
Oh, for sure. to and to bring it back, it was all about that fucking script. That's, I mean... from the beginning it was like we knew we had some heavy monologues but we wanted to shoot for it we were just we were shooting for it we overwrote the shit out of this movie it's probably like 20 pages too long if not yeah longer right um yeah but But the problem was, and i think this was a great thing, was we had such a good experience writing it.
01:22:42
Speaker
And it felt to me like, at least i this is from my perspective, is while it was hard, it never felt like it wasn't worth it. Because I kept seeing it get better.
01:22:55
Speaker
And yeah I but would just i would remember you would just send me some pages back and it'd be like, we're fucking doing something here, man. Like, look at him go, man. steve's He can fucking write when he fucking sits down and does it.
01:23:07
Speaker
You know? Goddamn, the boy could write. And i would feel it, man. i would i actually i did it And then it's like it always felt like a discovery. Even if I was writing stuff, I would write and it'd be like, oh, fuck, dude. Oh, yeah, for sure. We're tying it back. We're tying it back. but you Like, holy shit. like but I remember i would I would just be typing just random shit. And I was like, it's not random.
01:23:33
Speaker
It's like subconsciously I remembered. that was some the parts. I remember that like we're tying this all shit back. Like it's like a mirror. We're doing this thing where characters are reflections of each other and and that's why that other scene is kind of important with Lexi and Jennifer where Lexi's trying to warn Jennifer to not become her reflection essentially like the used up trash that is yeah that's probably the the most important scene um that we cut out but it still worked and then there's the luck with that you know there's the luck with that is that it can still work even though cutting it out
01:24:14
Speaker
The end of that segment of the scene, which was when they're at school where Lexi warns Jennifer and then when Bo or Mr. Ward comes on to Jennifer. Like cutting out all of that because that kind of foreshadowed and established and, you know, was metaphor for much larger elements to come.
01:24:32
Speaker
To cut out all that was probably the hardest cut of the entire film. But let me ask you, buddy, because hearing you talk, it sounded like doubt eventually kicked in.
01:24:45
Speaker
But if you doubted yourself so much, I don't think you ever would have engaged in this project. So at what point, because it has taken us 10 years, so I think it's safe to say this, at what point did the doubt kick in where it was crippling?
01:25:05
Speaker
day one when we were shooting the fucking first set and the first shot when I'm looking at that fucking red camera and then you're sitting behind it and we have actors that have are trained actors that were serious about their roles and I was like holy shit we were making a movie called Dickhead like this dude fucks his sister like oh fuck what You know, and then I remember thinking, because it was like, but that evaporated rather quickly.
01:25:43
Speaker
But it it came in waves. The confidence and the real worry came has come in waves because it's it's like this. i don't mean it you know like I've never seen a therapist. I technically saw therapist when I was a kid and he gave me pills to eat more food and look at me. Fucking asshole.
01:26:02
Speaker
not that i not not that Not that I blame him for my obesity, but you know he's got to share some guilt. I wish I could remember his name so that he could you know be shamed properly.
01:26:13
Speaker
na He should have gave me some fucking early 1990 Ozempic, whatever that was, the fucking diet pills that were killing everyone. should have recommended Tab. ah But my point is this confidence would would would come in waves because I have this crippling self-doubt. It's like imposter syndrome mixed with you were never good enough for anybody in your life, so how could you be good enough for this? And it's like, I know that's not rational. How could you be good enough for decade? It sucks having probably undiagnosed bipolar syndrome.
01:26:50
Speaker
yeah But the thing was, like I wanted to be like i wanted to this to be the best thing that you know I thought every step of the way, ah even to today, it's like, fuck, like, I just keep waiting for, like, the rug pull.
01:27:07
Speaker
um And I hate that, like, nobody has been, like, except for Andre that one time, and then I think we fixed all the issues, and he was like, it's not that bad. I think. Maybe he said it sucked. Like, I don't remember if the if he said the the picture lock was good or not, but everyone's, like, very encouraging.
01:27:27
Speaker
And positive. like Even when they were like reading the script, and I just kept feeling like, oh no, these you know they're they're desperate. They're desperate to be in a feature. like It's so easy to ride away to write off.
01:27:43
Speaker
But it's like, no. they like Barry Ann and Freeman, they gave us like a year of their lives and we have nothing to show for it. you know like Chris and...
01:27:54
Speaker
All of them, even with Grace, who jumped in late on the project. And, you know, we haven't, we shot with her like a couple of years ago. It's been a couple of years now since we did those pickups with her.
01:28:07
Speaker
More than a couple. Was COVID even a thing yet? Yeah. Yeah, it was post-COVID, but like, it was like probably... Oh, okay. Well, that's not so bad. Only two, three years.
01:28:20
Speaker
Yeah, that's not so bad. Honestly, that's not bad. On a dickhead scale, it's you know it's a it's a blink. That was like last weekend. ah But, you know, ah and i I feel like, and this is something I've kind of like been...
01:28:40
Speaker
freeing myself up too is like to because I have the the book that you that you made for me so lovingly, the rest of yet functional. And I have it on my desk at work.
01:28:50
Speaker
And every now and then I'll go through and i'll I'll read something. And I just think, fuck, the stuff I'm writing now is like actually good. Like this stuff, yeah maybe this stuff's not bad.
01:29:02
Speaker
But I think it's like, oh, wow, I can actually like objectively see that I'm better. And I think about that with Dickhead. Objectionably, we are just better filmmakers. We're better at... ah Even just the way that we were talking with the audio team, like...
01:29:18
Speaker
We pushed them so hard to get a score that we liked because it was, we were very dead set on getting something that we wanted and we pushed and we pushed and we probably pushed maybe you were even a a little harder than we were comfortable with.
01:29:33
Speaker
But yeah, at the end of the day, it's like, we're happy with it now. Wow. That's great. it feels it's a It's a fucking relief to say that like I'm happy with with it.
01:29:46
Speaker
And I'm happy with the edit. And when I watch the movie, it ah gets me excited because I'm like, shit, maybe these people that said it was not dog shit aren't wrong.
01:29:57
Speaker
And I want to believe that. And I want to believe that will mean something for us in the future. But I still believe that we have worked our hardest to make it the best that we can.
01:30:10
Speaker
And I'll always hold to that. Well, I'll also point out one thing that like that first day that we shot, you actually puked. And I was shocked because I was like, Tom, you need to eat something.
01:30:22
Speaker
And then I think you kind of told me and then Katie definitely told me. She's like, yeah, Tom's just been puking this whole time. He's not eating anything. yeah And i that was like a It was at least 12-hour days. It might have been like a 16-hour day that first shoot.
01:30:37
Speaker
It was probably, we'll we'll say 14-hour days. We'll hit it in the middle. It was a 14-hour day. And you didn't eat at all. I think the most I could get into you outside of alcohol was Gatorade.
01:30:50
Speaker
I think you might have had a Gatorade. But you didn't eat at all or anything. it was so It was surreal. And even looking back now, the whole the whole experience, the actual production of Dickhead is surreal.
01:31:06
Speaker
Because it was like, dude, we were a fucking rocking and rolling, dude. Like, we really fucking... Steven and I rocked and rolled. like I mean, Steven worked his fucking ass off day and night. I was mostly there to kind of make sure... I i really did...
01:31:21
Speaker
if there's a bad direction in the movie, it's because of me. Cause I was doing a lot of the directions. Cause Stephen just didn't have the bandwidth. he, I tried to free up space for him to do as much directing as I could.
01:31:35
Speaker
But in reality was it's just, I, the camera was a big thing and not having the DP was, it was catastrophic in a lot of ways.
01:31:47
Speaker
Um, I think the film suffers for it and it will always suffer for it. And that's a tragedy because it was something very foreseeable.
01:32:00
Speaker
But I mean, we're believers. We're dreamers. ah We're beavers. ah You know, and like i I was saying while you were gone, buddy, I was like, you know, not having...
01:32:17
Speaker
like having to split us up from directing, i think we'll always have, we'll always be a, if there's issues with the film, it's because we weren't both able to like focus completely on directing you, especially with having the, you pulled so much weight on all the other roles. um Yeah. Well, you know, you, you, you spoke about like the benefit of working with each other where you said i was able to lift you up and encourage you, you know, that was also another benefit of working with each other is,
01:32:47
Speaker
We were both attached to this project as close as you can be because we were both directors and producers and writers and everything else. And so there was a deep ah knowledge and understanding of what we wanted.
01:33:06
Speaker
But like when I was doing the camera work, you know I was just trying to pay attention to camera and trying to figure out what was going on wrong and trying to keep in some sort of balance.
01:33:17
Speaker
And so when the actors would do some of their takes, like I had no idea if the take was even good or anything, but I knew I could lean on you when you were satisfied and be like, okay, we got something here.
01:33:32
Speaker
We got a take. If we move on to the next shot, it's okay because Tom's satisfied with what we got. And so that was like a huge encouragement. I mean,
01:33:44
Speaker
You know, there is a huge benefit to doing this together as opposed to by ourselves. I mean, not to go on a tangent, but if you are doing this by yourself, maybe it's better to try to stick as much as possible with doing a short film as opposed to a feature.
01:33:59
Speaker
Because, you know, doing this without you, buddy, I mean, fuck. i I don't think I could do something this ambitious alone. I think I could do a short film. I think maybe a web series, but...
01:34:13
Speaker
I don't know. I don't know. But but I don't think dickhead exists without you. And that's the benefit of working together. Well, obviously, it doesn't
The Value of 'Bad' Films
01:34:24
Speaker
exist without you. I guess what ah i guess what I'm saying is um is I couldn't cross that finish line without you.
01:34:33
Speaker
Even though we're not cross it yet. Yeah. Frodo, Samwise, or vice versa. Oh, yes. And we we take turns with the ring, that's for sure.
01:34:46
Speaker
Yeah, we take turns being Frodo, we take turns being Sam and carrying the other. Fucking Alex is our golem, right? He's like, make me DP. It's like, oh, goddammit, Alex, you gotta show up.
01:34:59
Speaker
No, make me DP. Like, no you gotta put in the effort. Why are your hands shaking? Precious, where's my precious? God damn, stop shaking.
01:35:13
Speaker
Don't hit record yet. Don't hit record. You want to jump into the next bullet point? Yeah, sure. We all know most movies are bad, but I want to take a bit to talk about the good qualities of bad films.
01:35:27
Speaker
We all love a yore. Are Ninja 3 the domination? What do you... enjoy about, in quotation, bad film?
01:35:38
Speaker
And what are the distinctions between the good, the bad, and the ugly? And this, ah by the way, buddy, is a very difficult thing to answer.
01:35:49
Speaker
Because when I saw it in the notes, I was like, this motherfucker. I'm trying to write these notes up in like an hour. and like, what makes it good a good and bad and ugly film? It's like, oh, shit. Yeah.
01:36:01
Speaker
I don't fucking it know. ah So it's quite the ah quite the heavy ah topics, topic we want to tackle here.
01:36:12
Speaker
So why don't you go ahead and lead the way, Captain? The kind of thing that I was interested about was i don't necessarily think we had to dive like into semantics or delve too deep into this whole good, bad, and ugly thing.
01:36:29
Speaker
As much as I wanted to talk about, just because like films aren't the best film that's ever been made doesn't mean they don't are they're not worth something. that they can't be entertaining, that you can't enjoy them.
01:36:42
Speaker
One of the reasons I love, like I said, quote unquote, bad films is, dude, it's it I like making fun of shit. like i i don't Maybe I'm just an immature asshole, but mockery is fun.
01:36:57
Speaker
like i oh yeah. But not only that, it's like there's some legitimate, like i love the like ingenuity of fucking like cheap film. I love seeing the inventiveness of the desperate filmmaker.
01:37:12
Speaker
and that And that's what I love about like that when I talk about like talentless fucks, broke people. It's like, that is your inventiveness. You have to... Your ingenuity and drive to get out of those situations is what will separate you as a filmmaker.
01:37:32
Speaker
Sam Raimi would not be Sam Raimi if he didn't... like fucking make Evil Dead the way he made Evil Dead. right That puppet is ugly as fuck.
01:37:42
Speaker
But there is something about it when you watch that movie. like It's undeniable. like Either you're going to laugh or ridicule it or something, but guess what? That's an emotional reaction. It's not this stone-cold look when you're watching fucking Thunderbolts and you're like, okay, here's the next scene with the big car explosion. Wow.
01:38:05
Speaker
isn't it cool when all these people punch each other? Whoa. Yeah. But then you watch fucking puppet master and it's like, yeah the way they like these, like his little drill hand moves and the fucking inventive debts and the interesting, like, right. Like,
01:38:23
Speaker
that Not only that, it's like, where's the here's some sleaze, man. you That's where the sleaze lives. and i'm a you know i don't care if i I'm not a 21st century kind of guy. I'd like me some sleaze. I like naughty films. i like I'm a fucking creep. I like them dirty and naughty, man.
01:38:42
Speaker
um But yeah, like how do you feel about there's two parts to this question that I wanted to bring up. The idea that like things have to be like the best thing that have ever been filmed.
01:38:56
Speaker
And conversely, like your enjoyment of things that you objectively know are bad. And then I have to pee. So go, go ahead. all right. Well, luckily I wrote this down and I answered both because i mean, it is,
01:39:16
Speaker
It is a hard ah thing to figure out. I think if we could figure it out, ah none of us would ever fail at filmmaking.
01:39:28
Speaker
And yet, so many of us have, even the great filmmakers. But within this topic, on this podcast, I think we've discussed this before. And I'll say i honestly don't think I have the education or language to adequately express my thoughts on this.
01:39:45
Speaker
But I grew up on films. And so I believe there is an inherent understanding that most of our generation have, which like other art forms, where we say something good, we know it's good.
01:40:01
Speaker
And when we see something bad, we know it's bad. And I'm going to blow my nose real quick. Where's my fucking tissue? God damn it. I'm back. Talked about this before. And in the case of a...
01:40:12
Speaker
In the case of good, bad films is what I think we're talking about when we were talking about the bad films in quotation. They're the good, bad films like The Room or Your or Three Ninjas, Dominion, Domination, Ninja Three, Domination or that other one that we saw with the two brothers. it was like Tropical Island or something with like tons of naked women and RPGs. And it was amazing.
01:40:42
Speaker
But in the case of good, bad films, I think it falls to entertainment, which is possibly the core element of film and storytelling. And those films don't have to be thoughtful, polite, or well executed.
01:40:57
Speaker
But there is a charm in its sincerity where someone cared. I don't think there is such a thing as luck in a good, bad film as opposed to an ugly film.
01:41:08
Speaker
But I think luck is a critical part. Luck in the sense of films and a film's luck in finding someone deeply caring somewhere in the assembly of the film.
01:41:21
Speaker
But not luck because that person put in the effort the film needed. And so I guess that's where I come to that yin and yang where, you know, i think a good, bad film and a great film have probably more in common than, let's say, an ugly film.
01:41:42
Speaker
And I think the thing they have the most in common is ah someone who cared. You know? Like, I don't know. Maybe Sinbad sucks. I don't i watched that when I was a kid with the claymation and shit.
01:41:56
Speaker
I fucking love me some Sinbad, man. i fucking love Sinbad. Or like Army of Darkness or The Evil Dead. You know, you can argue that those films are bad. But seeing the stop animation, like you see...
01:42:12
Speaker
the heart that someone along the production is putting into these films. And it stands out just like, um you know, like in the eighties, I would watch some films with stop motion or some um practical effects that were just phenomenal, but the story itself sucked, but it was still like the practical effects that I fell in love with.
01:42:33
Speaker
And that was enough to carry the film. for me as opposed to everything else. And it, you know, it made some of those films enjoyable. Like ah Leviathan kind of comes to mind. ah Or there was someone with the with the robot that was like evil, but then good. God, what was, I forgot that. Short Circuit.
01:42:54
Speaker
Short Circuit, I think is what called. Oh, shit. Johnny Five? You know, just yeah, yeah, yeah. And some of, you know, They're not masterpieces, but there was some love and and tenderness placed into certain elements of these stories that that just really shine and and took it to a level that it never would have achieved without the people behind the scenes that were involved.
01:43:22
Speaker
yeah that's fairly well said, buddy. And I want to ask you one last question on this topic as you examine the, don't know, viscosity of your beer. I'm trying to make, wait for the ice to melt.
01:43:36
Speaker
Ah, okay. I was like, what the fuck is he doing? Like he's prospecting. I don't know. Um, It almost made me lose my train of thought, but I think I got back to it. ah and the And the question is, so we brought up your Ninja 3. Oh, I did. Because i I love those fucking movies. um Yeah, you do.
01:43:54
Speaker
What do you like more? ah Your or Ninja 3? Oh, your your is like... i don't want to say your is a masterpiece. It's not a masterpiece. It is not a masterpiece.
01:44:06
Speaker
I get a lot of enjoyment out of watching that stupid fucking movie. yeah like I was like to the screen. Well, that's why... That's why I think it it rests in entertainment, you know? Like, yours not a masterpiece, but it's fucking entertaining.
01:44:20
Speaker
Bloodsport. Not a masterpiece, but goddamnit, that movie isn't entertaining for me. But I want to say is, there's a distinction but here that I want to make. Um... Yor and ah Ninja 3, the Dominion or Domination or whatever the fuck it's called. Yeah, yeah I keep screwing up the title. These are actual studio What about the YouTube guys?
01:44:45
Speaker
like studio films what about like the youtube guys Are you feeling the same way about these like YouTube heroes like these days? and don't I'm not talking necessarily about the Iron Lung guy or whatever his name is. Markiplier or Stuckman.
01:45:06
Speaker
But what I mean is like yeah that josh the Josh Amperos, right? like ah get well josh I don't think Josh has done a feature. But like these guys, that's like they... they Their biggest reach their local kind of heroes.
01:45:26
Speaker
And yeah it's yeah we've had a couple of these people on our shows. What about these kind of films? I've been sending you some Reddit ah posts of these these guys. And it's like, it's it's i
01:45:45
Speaker
it's worth a... It's interesting. it's very interesting. Did you watch the the guy that was like, oh, I made 11 films in a year or whatever the hell it was. No, over 10 years, I made 11 films or whatever the fuck it was. I can't remember exactly.
01:46:02
Speaker
thought he wanted to make 11 films in a year. I thought that's what it said was I want to make 11 films in a year. and I was like, what the fuck? But like, did you watch any of his movies?
01:46:14
Speaker
Yeah, i checked out a little very minuscule amount and it was surprisingly better than I thought it would with that much ambition. Were they good? I have no idea because I was not going to watch any of them. I had no interest because I didn't know who that person was and because also they had so many films.
01:46:35
Speaker
and And this is what I was curious about because I was thinking about this lately. like you know You and I will have dickhead and then we want to go on to do some anthologies which are going to be feature films. but And let me ask you what you think of this because this is kind of sidetracking it.
01:46:54
Speaker
But staying on track with the YouTube idea you're talking about. Do you think it's po possibly detrimental to have like 10 films?
01:47:05
Speaker
under your belt that you've done and not have anything to show for it? Like, for instance, I think that actually can be a detriment. Like, you don't want to have a bunch of films that you've done that haven't gotten you gotten you anywhere.
01:47:18
Speaker
Right? Or how do you feel? Personally, i think, well, damn, this is going to sound like I'm such a fucking asshole.
01:47:32
Speaker
Like I wouldn't want like when I watch some of those films, like I watched ah like 10 minutes of one of the like the late when he released the latest. And I was like, I wouldn't put my name on this if I was the fucking guy that like yeah dumped the port-a-potty outside the fucking trailer.
01:47:50
Speaker
It's like, this was embarrassingly bad. like Everything was, everything about it is wrong. Like the color grade, the sound, the the framing, the dialogue, the editing, the pacing, the writing, the narrative, everything, nothing is working. Literally nothing.
01:48:07
Speaker
And I'm like, how did you watch this and think, how did you get away with it? Like, you've seen a movie before. I know your favorite movie is Interstellar. Like, just from looking at you, I could tell.
01:48:18
Speaker
um like Like, what happened? And this is where I'm like, yeah well, I can't really say anything because Dick Cat's not out.
01:48:30
Speaker
Right? I have no idea. like are i like My validation right now is hanging on a razor's edge. I don't know if we're full of shit or not.
01:48:42
Speaker
I don't think we are. I have to believe we're not because... Then yeah like the hundreds of thousands of hours of this podcast would literally be us shouting into the void and no help to anyone. And I can't allow that to be a reality because I actually do like make an effort to try and understand this shit. Like I try, maybe I'm fucking, I've never claimed to be the best or the smartest or whatever, but like I genuinely try to understand like how this shit works. Oh, that's where the discipline comes in though, right?
01:49:18
Speaker
Like we're not exactly out there reading books on filmmaking, which would probably important. read couple books on filmmaking. like some film. Huh? you read We've read a few. so We've read some books on filmmaking, at least one.
01:49:35
Speaker
Yeah, like what one or like one to five maybe, but there's more than that. Or like film history books. Oh, yeah. You know, like there's some real, effort there's some real like shit in time we we could put into this that we're not. I read Hollywood by Charles Bukowski. Does that count?
01:49:58
Speaker
Yes, it does, buddy. Because I read it too. ok Okay. Okay. But there we go. We're fucking filmmakers. um
01:50:08
Speaker
But dude, right? Like sometimes it's like there is.
01:50:16
Speaker
There is a mountain there is an an amount of effort that you have to put in. oh absolutely. And I think it shows, right? If you're... Yes.
01:50:29
Speaker
I hope. God, I hope.
01:50:33
Speaker
I think it's honest... like It's like my second biggest nightmare, I think, is... is that everyone's like, yeah, this is the biggest piece of shit I ever seen. Like, why did you guys try so hard? yeah Because that's like not... Holy shit. That's like not the... right Right? Because the thing is, is like the daydream or the dream is just so strong. like It's so present.
01:50:59
Speaker
It's like, I don't believe in the whole vision board shit, but like I could like perfectly visualize the vision board for Dickhead. I've been i' like i' felt the feeling of sitting in that seat sitting next to you and we're like, keep touching our fucking ties because we're wearing fucking suits because we're fucking losers.
01:51:20
Speaker
And we're like wearing our suits and we're fucking tying on these ties and we're like, And we're fucking tripping our fucking minds out because we're like, we won't be able to sit through this so sober. So we like ate mushrooms or dropped the tab or I don't know what we did, but we're fucked up for sure because we're degenerates and that's what we do.
01:51:40
Speaker
And we're sitting through it. And like at the end of the movie, people are like are plotting and it's like we can't move. Like we're stunned. Like we can't. It's like that day one experience of it all being a real thing.
01:51:55
Speaker
it's like comes back. it's It's this idea, the validation. It's the it's like that's the dream. It's not that we're filmmakers and we're rich and we're famous or whatever. It's that we did it.
01:52:07
Speaker
We made a fucking movie. like We made an actual movie that has connected and reached people that aren't our relatives. Yeah. Time wasn't wasted, right? You know, i think the one of the biggest fearful things that we can witness will be if we see Katie and Karen take a quiet moment together and then just sit like at the bar having a drink together it's silence.
01:52:36
Speaker
That might be the scariest thing we could see. Wasn't it worth it, guys? Wasn't it worth it? yeah But, well, speaking of worth it. You know what? Go ahead, buddy. I'll say this.
01:52:49
Speaker
I'll say that that's less scary in the sense that I know what we've been working on. And I think we're getting this film to be the best thing that it can be. And I can rest on that. Yeah.
01:53:08
Speaker
I don't think there's any fear of that. I think the fear maybe for me is just um
01:53:19
Speaker
devoting so much time and effort to this film.
01:53:25
Speaker
You know, it's like, yeah, I got it to be the best, but it was like, well, but, you know, the best was like a C plus and you still devoted 10 years of your life to that.
01:53:35
Speaker
Like, how does that...
01:53:38
Speaker
What does that say about yourself for your your time management you know and your devotion, like your priorities? Because there's so much to life and it's like you dedicated this to that.
01:53:50
Speaker
And that's the biggest fear. I would say lot of people never hit a C. That's a passing grade, baby. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. A plus? You mean like there's a plus, dude? Like shit. I mean, I've been thinking D minus, but...
01:54:09
Speaker
Yeah, I guess he answer my like that's been my biggest reassurance is that I feel like we're hitting new benchmarks and we're doing good in that regard.
01:54:23
Speaker
So I guess i guess maybe my my ultimate fear is a bit um nonsensical in the sense that it would have to be just someone watching this and be like, you guys are fucking stupid. This is the worst piece of shit I've ever seen. And I don't think we're ever going to get that.
01:54:39
Speaker
i don't think that's possible. um But if that did come to truth and that did happen. That means someone's watched it. I always say doesn't matter what your mistakes are.
01:54:51
Speaker
People have to actually witness them. It's like the whole, if a tree falls down in the wood, does it make a sound? It's like that jump cut don't work. Well, it only doesn't work if someone never sees it. Yeah, that's true. That's true. The only way you know it doesn't work is because you it. We have have an audience to fail. We have to have an audience to fail.
01:55:09
Speaker
um Until then, we've made a masterpiece. and you know I'll stick to it. ah and And I've interrupted you. As far as everyone knows, it is a masterpiece. but But that's my biggest fear is that like being so disillusioned.
01:55:24
Speaker
And I will answer it. Here's my rebuttal. Let me rebuttal real quick. Let me put it this way and then you can rebuttal. I am so arrogant and narcissistic that if I see myself in the same vein or the same playing field as other filmmakers that we know, and you know who I'm talking about. I'm not going to name names out of respect.
01:55:53
Speaker
This is the only respect I'll give. But if I am in the same place as them,
01:56:01
Speaker
then,
01:56:05
Speaker
then, because this is ah an illusion of grandeur, then i yeah it's so fucked. I'm so fucked. I'm so disillusioned.
01:56:16
Speaker
Because I think we've produced something that's much better. i just don't know if it's that much better. I guess it's just ah the the breaking of reality for me, right? And no, Jared, we're not talking about you. Shut up, Jared. We're not talking about you. about But you just need that one person to be like, you just need that one person to be like, you're Tyler Dirted.
01:56:40
Speaker
What the fuck? You know? like Well, that's the beauty. That level. i don't want to be that delusional, I guess is what I'm saying. And I hope I'm not. And this might be the gayest thing I've ever said, but...
01:56:55
Speaker
I guess it's not my biggest fear because I can't believe that we're both that disillusioned and I trust your instincts and maybe i rely on that so much that i that's not my fear.
01:57:10
Speaker
The fear is more that nobody's said that it's dog shit and I'm like, that means that it could be something and that is only part of the puzzle.
01:57:23
Speaker
ah because the other part of the puzzle is we got to market and we have reach because we're literally competing against movies that have like Mila Kunis and Mila Jovovich and mela yoovic and Other women named Mila that have... But not just that. It's also what what's next.
01:57:49
Speaker
It's like, what else are you working on? ah Rico. It's about a hitman that likes to dance. He's i got good moves. I got a script I just wrote called The Funny Man.
01:58:01
Speaker
um The pitch. Here's the elevator pitch. Wait, we're not even done. No, we're not. But that's that's unrelated. okay i was due ah I guess I won't do my elevator pitch for... no, no please do my elevator. you please Please do it. Please, I'm sorry. I'm stupid. Okay.
01:58:21
Speaker
A failed comedian is enlisted to find his neighbor's missing daughter, which leads him on a journey of self-discovery he...
01:58:36
Speaker
as he runs into old friends and new friends and something sinister is brewing to be unleashed upon the sleepy little town that inhabits the funny man.
01:58:54
Speaker
So we were just talking shit about all these scripts that are like end of the world events. ah And that's what you wrote, huh? It's not end of the world. It's just one town.
01:59:08
Speaker
It's as big as your boat.
01:59:11
Speaker
It is. i mean, the whole idea is that, no, yeah, it's like this little town. and it's this It's Victorville. It's this town that somehow we all know each other.
01:59:23
Speaker
is it like a town like Victorville or a town like um Tremors where it's like 20 people? No, it's more like Victorville. Oh, okay. Cool. There's enough people that you don't know everybody, but you don't have you wouldn't have to try that hard to get dirt on anybody. like You're like two mutuals away from knowing everybody.
01:59:47
Speaker
right like It's two to three degrees of separation. Yeah, we don't have, it's not LA where it's like you have to like had sucked. ah What's his name? ah The guy from ah the ah news radio.
02:00:05
Speaker
um joe Rogan? No. Phil Hartman? The drug, the druggie. The crackhead. John Lovitz? Andy. Andy. and Andy Dick.
02:00:16
Speaker
Andy Dick, right? it's like you had to have sucked Andy Dick to like to get anywhere in LA or something, right? It's not like that. It's like, it's this Victorville. like We have some local C. We have a local C. You didn't even get Andy Dick in Victorville, dude.
02:00:32
Speaker
No, no. But what I'm saying is, right? like We have, right? Like, we're... we're just big enough to have like a thing for almost everything, but we're not the it for anything in a weird way.
02:00:49
Speaker
That's for sure. We're not the it for anything. Right. yeah I mean, we have our local bands, our local comedians, and essentially that's, that's who Larry Chinasky is. Larry Chin, Larry Chinasky. And that's for you there, buddy. The main character's name is Larry Chinasky.
02:01:10
Speaker
And he is the worst comedian of all time. He is not funny. He's essentially been banned from everywhere except for his own watering hole, Jocko's. Except for the place he owns.
02:01:25
Speaker
Jocko's. We're going to make that place famous one day. ah I'll say is, buddy, just check out the script, I think. don't know. No, going to work on it during the week. And... ah Give some notes. But I'm in a weird mood, man.
02:01:42
Speaker
I'm in a weird mood. I saw Say Anything. You know, I i kind of want simple. I think I'm in a simple mood for stories. Especially watching like Train Dreams and Hamnet. Even though Hamnet's not simple because it's like you're dealing with William Shakespeare. Yeah.
02:01:59
Speaker
yeah But yeah, you know, just just like, I don't know, a story that has heart. And heart doesn't have to be the end of the world and adrenaline's coursing through your heart. I'm telling you, man. That's what I wrote, baby.
02:02:13
Speaker
It's about a guy that's like... He's about about a guy that's about to give ah It's about a guy that's about to give up, but he learns that giving up sometimes is worse than being a failure.
02:02:30
Speaker
And yeah, that's what I wrote. Yeah, no, that sounds great. So what are the hallmarks of a good film? can i Can I, hold on. I think an interesting topic in that that we're facing. is Not even the giving up, but the prolonging.
02:02:49
Speaker
The procrastination of the inevitable. Of whatever that is. There's something to that. And it kind of hit deep personally. that's That's where I'm at too, right? The prolonging of all of this.
02:03:06
Speaker
And I will say, you you inspired me you inspired me for this one, buddy. You were a little bit of my muse because you always call me the closer. but but I thought you were going to something sweet. You always say I'm a dash hole.
02:03:24
Speaker
shit, everybody. don't mean to be me. No, I don't know.
02:03:31
Speaker
Well, wait till you read some of the stand-up. there's Some of the jokes of this that i ah I've tried to pull out. I did do some research. I wrote my best jokes, but you know what? They're all the closes.
02:03:42
Speaker
I did do some research. i I stole a couple jokes, but it's on purpose. But I ain't that good. But I did write a lot of the jokes that are in the film.
02:03:53
Speaker
But out of the hallmarks of a good slash great film, I think the easiest answer to this is yeah the emotional reaction. Your connection to the film.
02:04:07
Speaker
It's like when we talk about Tokyo Story and you have this, if you actually like give yourself to the film and you don't just like watch your mom,
02:04:22
Speaker
there's probably something deeply wrong with you. Maybe you have some if you want your mind settled it maybe have some unsettled mom issues or per like you don't have a good relationship with your parents.
02:04:39
Speaker
But right like a great film, you watch it and it's so like awe-inspiring as well that like you can't even really take it all in. You can't even absorb it all at that moment because of how like intricate and layered and good everything is. It's like you you're just getting sandblasted with such greatness that you you're not ah able to even necessarily appreciate it because you're dumb like me.
02:05:12
Speaker
ah Like, right? i That's why I can't watch David Lean. I'm so afraid to watch fucking David Lean films. I've never seen Bridge on the River Kwai. I've never seen Lawrence of Arabia. Oh, that film's all right. never seen Zhivago.
02:05:26
Speaker
That film's all right. Give me another one that's all right. Dr. Zhivago, that film's all right. Motherfucker, he's too lean, if you know what I'm saying. Ah, David Tuleen. That's what ah his Indian ancestors were called.
02:05:41
Speaker
um But, you you know, it's it's funny you mentioned what you mentioned because that's what I spoke about in answering this. And I'll just read what I wrote.
02:05:52
Speaker
This may be the hardest part to answer, especially because it is so much more subjective ah in this specific, um as far as the good, the bad, and the ugly.
02:06:05
Speaker
But take, for example, Back to the Future v Tokyo Story. Which one is higher rated? Which one possesses the better, in quotations, technique?
02:06:18
Speaker
Which one is the better film? But even if you lack the language of understanding when you see a good film, you know it. And you know it almost instantly.
02:06:31
Speaker
perhaps of what makes a good bad film, a great film is the antithesis of that where it is thoughtful and well executed, but not necessarily entertaining.
02:06:43
Speaker
Okay. That's what I wrote. So yeah, a great film is the antithesis of a good bad film where it is thoughtful and well executed where a good bad film will may not well be.
02:07:00
Speaker
But a good bad film will be entertaining, whereas a great film might not be entertaining because only see Tokyo Story once. And it's hard to say that's an entertaining film, even though I think that might be the greatest film ever made.
02:07:16
Speaker
And I've seen Come and See like five, four times, but that was really pushing it. And as much as I love that film and as much as that might be a favorite for me, it's a hard film to watch. You know, like I wouldn't put Come and See on the like list of most entertaining films ever.
02:07:38
Speaker
You know, I think Come and See is a film that you have to watch. If there was a list of films you must watch, Come and See is on there. If there's a list of the most entertaining films in film history, RoboCop probably pushes out Come and See.
02:07:56
Speaker
So
02:07:59
Speaker
so i I think there is... Who's Bigelow pushes out Covet C, dude? There is literally nothing entertaining about Covet C. But you know I felt like Back to the view back to the Future vs. Tokyo Story was a very good example because there's a lot of people who love Back to the Future.
02:08:18
Speaker
um I remember growing up, I watched Back to the Future 1 and 2, like, on repeat those were like films i i gravitated towards and i watched repeatedly but then we saw it with the criterion top 100 and we just shat on it so much unfairly i think we were a little unfair and disrespectful to it but we shat on that film so much i don't think so i think that film is it's it's
02:08:48
Speaker
But I'll say this. I'll say this. I don't know if this is true, but I bet Back to the Future has a higher rating than Tokyo Story. I bet that's true. And I bet it's true that you can argue objectively that Back to the Future is technically better than Tokyo Story.
02:09:06
Speaker
Like, with all of the production value, it's probably higher than Tokyo Story. Okay, how how about this? We have a couple of metrics. IMDB, the people's choice.
02:09:20
Speaker
8.1 for Tokyo Story. Wow. IMDb, the people's choice, 8.5 Back to the Future. Wow! oh ron That actually gives me hope in humanity. Rotten Tomatoes.
02:09:35
Speaker
No, fuck Rotten Tomatoes. The snootiest, probably least, like, best form ever. Tokyo Story, 100%.
02:09:47
Speaker
Okay. Back to the Future, 93%. ninety three percent Now, this is where it gets a little interesting because Letterboxd. Wow. The CineSnob.
02:09:59
Speaker
You have to be a film nerd to even download the app. Yes. Tokyo Story, 4.4 out of 5. to the Future, 4.2 out of 5. back to the future four point two out of five So Tokyo Story edges out Back to the Future, according to Leatherbox, just slightly.
02:10:22
Speaker
Well, it sounds like Tokyo Story beat Back to the Future everywhere. um Except for IMDb. But here's the... Wait, what was Hold on, hold on, hold on. But you want to know that there's a stat here that is missing that we haven't discussed, which might indicate something valuable.
02:10:44
Speaker
Are you ready? ah Tokyo story, 204,000 views on Letterboxd. Back to the future, 4.2 million views.
02:11:04
Speaker
Yeah, that's a stat. That's a stat right there. That's a big stat that we're ignoring. And that 204,000 on Tokyo Story, only half of that actually watched the movie. with Damn.
02:11:20
Speaker
But how many of those 4.2 million views have rewatched Back to the Future? 90%? ninety percent I know I have. I say Back to the Future a hundred times.
02:11:31
Speaker
I see. it wast Well, that was my that was my gift to you as a gag. I know. He fucking won't stop giving me Back to the Future shit, even though I'm like, I fucking hate that movie. I know. That's why. Well, because i I got the little ah thing for the DeLorean ah that was super expensive. And then I was looking for your gift. I have the fucking Marty unopened still. that i sit Yeah, dude. He sits next to me every day when I write.
02:11:57
Speaker
that's good You're going to have the biggest Back to the Future collection if I ever become rich, buddy. One day you'll have a DeLorean if I make it big. Again? Another DeLorean? Yes. can race this one. Seriously, though. Look at that.
02:12:13
Speaker
that That is saying something. It's like the amount of more people that have seen Back to the Future vs. Tokyo Story is not even close.
02:12:26
Speaker
But I think that's comforting comforting and the people that have seen it have rated it higher. Because I would never recommend if my family was like, hey, what do you want to want to watch on Thanksgiving?
02:12:38
Speaker
Tokyo Story versus Back to the Future. Oh, yeah, that's not fair. I know what I'm picking for the family film to watch. You know? No. Tokyo Story is I woke up at 6 a.m.
02:12:51
Speaker
Even though Tokyo Story for a family film, right? Like Tokyo Story literally made me call my mom and I was holding back tears just talking to her. Back to the Future never made me do that. Back to the Future made me feel weird about my mom. Yeah, I was going to say, Back the Future made you feel weird about your mom. It's like, uh-oh.
02:13:10
Speaker
But, I mean, in reality, right? Like, You have to beat to you have to appreciate Tokyo Story more than you have to appreciate Back to the Future.
02:13:26
Speaker
And what I mean by that is like, you know, there's just we're video game we're gamers. yeah It's fair to say Steven and I are our video game enthusiasts. Yeah, we had a long tangent on Resident Evil there.
02:13:40
Speaker
Some games are harder than others, right? it's you got your mist right back to the future is like your fucking animal crossing. It's like a chill, you know, there's no steak environment here. You're just going to close your eyes and enjoy. or Right.
02:14:04
Speaker
You know, it's hip to be squared or whatever the fuck the song is from that movie. Yeah.
02:14:11
Speaker
Hailey Lewis and the News. It never hip for me. um But like Tokyo Story, right? It's like this is like chess versus fucking a grandmaster. You're like, oh, fuck. Like I have to like think about things and like the everything is actually super important.
02:14:32
Speaker
I'm not going to say that things aren't super important and Back to the Future because I think it is very technically very well made. Robert Zemeckis is not a slouch. Robert Zemeckis is great. And you know what? He really doesn't get enough respect. and every little honestly every little piece of that movie works because it keeps building on the... It keeps building right into this monumental end, which is this giant set piece of DeLorean driving through the lightning and smashing through the fucking 88 miles per hour, hitting the lightning.
02:15:08
Speaker
Boom.
02:15:11
Speaker
But Tokyo Story is just this, you could probably pause it every 15 seconds and write an essay on the framing and the blocking and why everything, right? It's so much it's like a educational versus entertainment, yeah which is kind of what you had brought up with your reference to ah Tokyo Story versus Back to the Future.
02:15:41
Speaker
It's like one is... One, while I don't think Ozu is like sitting there like, oh, my art is magnificent. that no You do not understand how smart I am. I so i understand humans and the truth.
02:15:59
Speaker
I don't know why he's French. But... a um but Did you forget your train thought? but what I'm saying is like...
02:16:13
Speaker
that's the dog party Yeah, they're howling. don't know why they're howling. It's like the thing, man. I fed them and everything. They should be happy. But I'm just i i'm hung up on this idea that Zemeckis is just like, I'm going to make everyone happy and I'm going to make everyone a lot of money.
02:16:33
Speaker
And Ozu's like, I'm going to rip people's souls out and show them in a mirror who they are. And I'm going to be broke.
02:16:44
Speaker
Oof. And... i mean there's these are This is the dichotomy of film as an art because Zemeckis is the best. ah He's not the best of the entertaining directors, I don't think. That's probably Cameron, right? like His box office numbers prove it. like People just fucking love watching james camp Jim Cameron movies. They love Avatar. yeah And I don't get it. like i don't get it's like I don't either. but It's like, how does this fucking make so much money?
02:17:17
Speaker
I don't understand. and it's so funny because James james Cameron would be like, oh, my favorite movie is 2001. And one I'm like, and then you made fucking Avatar 6? Like... like Jim, like rationalize it for me. And then he's like, you see my yacht?
02:17:34
Speaker
d me see Do you see my yachts yacht? Have you seen my helicopter and my fucking subterranean sea lab 2021 base that I live in nine years, like days out of a year, like whatever. And I'm like, oh, Jim, OK, I get it.
02:17:55
Speaker
you you like right there are There's like the filmmakers that are like not in it to make money, but they make entertaining films and they're rich because of it. Nolan, somehow. Yeah, but that that's what Nolan is. no whole how Nolan is a billionaire, probably.
02:18:15
Speaker
Let me say this. because Please, I've been talking too much. Cameron made Terminator 2, which is like one of your favorite films. And Zemeckis, who I will defend more, he made Forrest Gump, which when we watched it, I saw a little tear when Forrest was like, he's not like me, is he? ah you're like, he's not like you, Forrest.
02:18:41
Speaker
But more than any of that, Robert Zemeckis made Who Framed Roger Rabbit? Which is, bar none, one of my top 10 films ever.
02:18:55
Speaker
That might be my like one of my favorite noirs ever, is Who Framed Roger Rabbit. I think that movie's a masterpiece. I gotta say that.
02:19:07
Speaker
So, just watched it recently. and ah dude, I fucking love Who Framed Roger Rabbit. The kids liked it a lot, too. and I think that film, I always like to shit on it a little bit because it's a it feels a little long.
02:19:26
Speaker
ah That's fair. And I'm like, okay. like But part of me is like, I also want to live in this world forever. The evil villain's plan is that he wants to build a freeway.
02:19:44
Speaker
Right through Tootown. Yeah, right through Tootown. And I'm like, God, dude. i ah He's an evil motherfucker because when he fucking pours that shoe into the acid, I mean, that's one of the most disturbing deaths ever in a fictional tale.
02:20:02
Speaker
I'll say that. well Like, seen disturbing deaths and, like, like come and see, they show a cow literally being machine gunned down and you're watching its eyes roll over into its head.
02:20:13
Speaker
And that's very disturbing. Yeah. But clearly, Roger Rabbit, a cartoon shoe going to a vat of acid is completely fake. And that was so fucking disturbing. Well, I will say... That was a very disturbing scene.
02:20:26
Speaker
When John and I did our Noir watch back at Kohl's, it was a long time ago now, maybe like six years ago. yeah i remember I i rated it pretty harshly. and then i Who framed Roger Rabbit? and I watched it again. okay And i I was like, the fact that everyone plays it so straight, so honestly, is, it's kind of undeniable. Hoskins, Hoskins, dude.
02:20:56
Speaker
He's the glue to everything. You don't get it. tune killed my brother. What happened? They dropped the piano on his head. And he's like, well, that's life. Every now and then a tune drops the piano on your head. It's like, what the fuck? It turns out it was Doom the whole time.
02:21:18
Speaker
It's brilliant. It's brilliant. It really is a brilliant film. And it's so brilliant because it's played... It's played so honestly, like as if it was real. Like if everything was real. Yeah.
02:21:31
Speaker
Bob Hoskins, man. I mean, Bob Hoskins, in my opinion, he's one of the most... un He's one of the most neglected film ah actors alongside ah Franklin Jala. Oh, do want to say Bob Hoskins in Brazil is great.
02:21:48
Speaker
Him and Robert De Niro in that film are fantastic. Yeah. Was Bob Hoskinson Brazil? Yeah. he's he's what He's the guy that helps. He works with Robert De Niro. And then Robert De Niro gets killed by all that paper, that suffocation. Which is the funniest part in the whole film. It's like you're watching it and you're like, you can't believe what you're watching. What the fuck? That's the best part of that film. It really that part it really is. Robert De Niro getting killed.
02:22:18
Speaker
He's suffocated by floating paper. Like paper that had... Bob Hoskins is in that film? Yes. don't remember that. He works with De Niro. He's like the other garbage guy cleaner-upper.
02:22:30
Speaker
um Bob Hoskins, dude. But yeah, you know i wanted to say like...
02:22:37
Speaker
There's...
02:22:40
Speaker
that that There's a lot of films. There's a lot of films ah that, you know, and this is like something that we struggled with with Dickhead until we got to where we are now. With Bob Hoskins? No, it's like it's like... He'd be proud of us.
02:22:58
Speaker
It's like the characters of the film have to take the world seriously and genuinely. or Absolutely. Or it's so bad. It's so ugly.
02:23:10
Speaker
and Oh, dude, Who Framed Roger Rabbit could easily be such a terrible movie, right? Yes. it like it what It walks the thinnest tightrope ever of any film, right?
02:23:24
Speaker
and And it's a perfect example of what you're talking about right now with playing it serious and respecting the world you're in. Yes, because a lot of i think a lot of people, are they shove their idea, their politics, their too much of their perspective into it when it's like, no, that's not you're not being genuine to the world. You're just being genuine to yourself? Yeah. and Or not even that. You're just shoehorning. Yeah. yeah like Look at sinners.
02:23:56
Speaker
i And I think this might be a tightrope walk of itself, but... Dude, Sinners insists upon itself so much in the fact that it's it's like
02:24:12
Speaker
you have to side with Smoke and Stack or you're You are your evil. yeah You're literally the KKK. Yes. Right. Like they they're like, hey, look, we've done some bad shit. We all acknowledge that we've done some bad shit.
02:24:28
Speaker
But like we're coming here to do something right and be go straight and be good. But we're we're not the KKK. But we're not. Right. Yeah, you're right. The movie literally takes the time to like gun down the KKK. Yeah.
02:24:42
Speaker
And literally gunned down the KKK. Like literally we're like, really? We're still going on with this shit? Like, yeah. 20 more minutes, huh? 30 more minutes, 40 more minutes. We're still going to continue on with this shit. Okay.
02:24:56
Speaker
And you' you're kind of asking yourself like, why? you know what? Like we know they're bad. But the other thing is like, there's too many stories happening here.
02:25:11
Speaker
like You know what, buddy? i haven't seen all the Best Picture nominations, but Sinners might be the worst because when you said F1 was exactly what it's supposed to be, you make a really good point.
02:25:26
Speaker
like I think F1 is probably the worst Best Picture nomination, but it's exactly what it should be. And that's... Very hard to do in film.
02:25:39
Speaker
There's very few films that are exactly what they're supposed to be. Yeah. Who Framed Roger Rabbit? Not exactly what it's supposed to be, because it exceeded, but still, it's supposed to be exactly what it's supposed to be.
02:25:53
Speaker
Sinners...
02:25:55
Speaker
Like, why? From Death Till Dawn exists, and that's a much more fun and entertaining movie. Yeah, the thing about Sinners is... Maybe that's the worst film on on the list. A little unfair. But you know, every everyone has to vote for Sinners because it's popular, right? No, no, no. It's like the people popular thing. People are voting for Sinners because they're only remembering the good bits.
02:26:24
Speaker
And the good bits are great. The crazy like. No, they're not. They're not even that good. The only good bit was Haley Steinfeld spitting in his mouth. it was like, well dude, i'll I'll drink your spit.
02:26:36
Speaker
but it is The vampire river dancing when the implication drops that like, oh. They all have like the exact same memories. And it's like this hive mind.
02:26:47
Speaker
That's kind of terrifying because like everyone they've known is also probably now in danger. But the movie kind of devolved. But that never comes across. so it just It just happens for a second.
02:27:00
Speaker
But what I'm saying. but it never comes across. It's never established. All I'm saying is is like there was all this there was a great potential because there were so many like well-executed scenes. they just never where It didn't all work as a whole.
02:27:16
Speaker
It's like the only good thing about Sinners was Delroy Lindo. He was great. Yes. And ah that young kid, that buried woman he was trying to seduce because she's gorgeous. Yeah.
02:27:32
Speaker
And then ah Michael B. Jordan. But Michael B. Jordan's great in everything. So it's not fair. I don't know. I'm trying to defend the movie. I don't like it that much. It's not that good, though. That's my point. It's not that good. It's not. It does't it it doesn't deserve to be the most nominated film in history.
02:27:51
Speaker
No, it doesn't. Because it's not technically great either. If Parasite was the most nominated film in history, I'd be like, okay, that film deserved it.
02:28:04
Speaker
I don't know if it should be the most nominated film in history, but if you're going to nominate, if you're going to give a ah credit to that, let it be that film. Sinners?
02:28:16
Speaker
It ain't clearing the bar on fucking anything. Maybe just like... Song? Maybe song. Not even sound. Not even like score.
02:28:29
Speaker
Just maybe song. And it's competing with K-pop Demon Hunters. What you know, I don't know if you've seen K-pop Demon Hunters, but that shit's pretty fucking good. I watched it.
02:28:40
Speaker
That shit's pretty fucking legit. Um... I hate all the... I would say, before we talk about K-pop Demon Hunters real quick, like I only like the girls' songs.
02:28:51
Speaker
That's all it is? boy The boys' songs suck. They sing for like two seconds. No, they don't. And then they kill i have a ton of music. Yes, they do. I've i've seen that movie a hundred times. I watched it. I've seen it a hundred times. There's one duet with the demon boy and then maybe one demon no the song. No, they have the soda pop song. they Not only that, they have the the boys song when they're like...
02:29:17
Speaker
We're going to go and beat them at their own game. We're going to get them. We're going to get them. We're catching up today. We're going to beat them at their own game. We're so pretty. They can't stand us. We're going to fuck them.
02:29:33
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. even but And I was like, all right, I like this movie. But K-pop Demon Hunter also had some really fucking good songs. I didn't even know were from that movie that I had heard.
02:29:46
Speaker
But Sinners really doesn't have any of that. Like, Sinners has some good ah songs. Like, as blues songs. Which I love the blues more than I love K-pop.
02:29:58
Speaker
So it'll be like, yeah, naturally I'll go towards the Sinners ah song. But...
02:30:07
Speaker
For Sinners to be, like, record-breaking...
02:30:14
Speaker
I mean... Like, sinners? ah So, buddy, same question as above. What are hallmarks of an ugly, shitty fu film? ah Uh... Cash grabs.
02:30:28
Speaker
Where no effort was put in other than... ah
02:30:36
Speaker
effort to make a quick buck. I think Five Nights at Freddy's 2 might fit that description. But really, Predator, Wastelands, not Badlands, I saw in the writing, acting, editing, coloring, cinematography, lighting, set directing, were all so uninspired.
02:31:01
Speaker
The only hope was to sucker people like me into thinking I was watching Predator Badlands. Yeah. These films just make you feel gross and not in a good way.
02:31:15
Speaker
That's an ugly film. Yeah. And I would say there are movies. Which Sinners isn't. I'll say this. Sinners is not an ugly film. No. It's not a bad film. It's a perfectly serviceable film.
02:31:28
Speaker
Yes. It's like the definition of a 6 out of 10. it's just It's better than average. 5.5 out of 10. Maybe you hate it more than I do.
02:31:41
Speaker
I'm a sucker for vampires, as they say. But once you compared it to From Dusk Till Dawn, I think that really um ah skewed my perspective on things. Because
02:31:57
Speaker
From Dust Till Dawn's fucking good, dude. Especially that first half before Robert Zemeckis. Before Robert Rodriguez steps in. When it's just QT's film.
02:32:11
Speaker
Because I think Quentin Tarantino did the first act. I don't know. Did he? I think he did, yeah. Well, I know he definitely did the foot And that's fucking... Well, yeah, he did the first act and then he acted in But like that first like quarter or third of the film is phenomenal of of from Dusk Till Dawn.
02:32:36
Speaker
One thing I'll say,
02:32:40
Speaker
and I think, well, I mean, i don't want to just talk about Sinners. i don't want to just touch on that, but... When we talk about bad films, to me, like the the real hall hallmark and what I would impress upon people to be familiarize themselves with is pacing.
02:33:02
Speaker
um Nothing sticks out more in a film than scenes that run on too long or too short. And the other thing I would say is like, please, for the love of God, do not show the I'm getting ready in the morning shot that that to me is like the most egregious hallmark of a shit film.
02:33:28
Speaker
Just straight away. I know I'm in for garbage as soon as I see that kind of shot. ah The... i Like, getting up, brushing my teeth, dressing my clothes. Like, that shot is like a hallmark of bad.
02:33:45
Speaker
oh yeah, you hate that. I hate it. there's And that's funny, because I put that in a jog at night. You didn't. I did in a way. You did not. She's not brushing her teeth.
02:33:57
Speaker
Like, there's... i Look, yeah I think a jog at night...
02:34:06
Speaker
actually executes that ah and different way. It's not like the, oh, she pours coffee and then brushes her tea i brushes her teeth and then pours coffee and then blah, blah, blah, blah blah blah blah blah right?
02:34:20
Speaker
And then ah she ah ties her shoes. No, it doesn't do that. You have a couple of quick cuts. Literally the whip pan, right? Because it's too late in the evening for coffee.
02:34:32
Speaker
Wait, the whip pan. But you didn't do the whole... the egregious, you didn't, you didn't commit the mortal sin. No, that's funny because, um, I would totally fall into that.
02:34:49
Speaker
If you didn't express your, uh, disdain for that and be hearing you talk about that, like I would definitely do that on my own.
02:35:02
Speaker
But you know, there' there's the interaction of you and me, like working together and me wanting to indulge in like something like that. And you'd be like, yeah, buddy, just don't. Let's cut that out.
02:35:17
Speaker
And then me hopefully being intelligent enough to be like, okay, well, let's, ah you know, ah we'll save that for the end of the shoot. And if we can film it, we can film it.
02:35:28
Speaker
but My thing is, Okay, you know what the true hallmark of a of an ugly film is? but the actor The directors that not only couldn't kill their darlings, but like leaned into them.
02:35:44
Speaker
And there's something to say about killing your darlings in that what I think of as my darling is the excess, the um indulgence the self-indulgence, really, that you... It's like the...
02:36:10
Speaker
it's It's tough because I think as a filmmaker, you really want to lean into the self-indulgence. There's this ego about having this...
02:36:22
Speaker
oh, this shot will change the world. like I am Tarkovsky. like The fire will lighten her eyes and she will see the brightness of the daylights. like You haven't even seen a Tarkovsky film. you Exactly. I'm guessing.
02:36:39
Speaker
ah But you know who hasn't seen a Tarkovsky film? The guy that made Beverly Hills Chihuahua 2. Like, i mean, maybe. as I don't know. I mean, he might be Tarkovsky, actually.
02:36:54
Speaker
It was quite successful. Tarkovsky's ghost directed that film. He's like, I'm tired of making films no one watches. Beverly Hills Chihuahua 2.
02:37:05
Speaker
Ah, I see. You are also a fan of the tiny dog. So... so Buddy, finish up your thoughts, and I have a final question for us on the main topic. Yeah.
02:37:21
Speaker
my My final thoughts here.
02:37:28
Speaker
Steven and I... yeah Throughout this episode, have expressed over and over and over again the necessary need to have discipline.
02:37:42
Speaker
And with discipline, you have to know and understand that you have to be able to be critical of your own work to grow.
02:37:58
Speaker
And you need confidence as much as you need anything, any other resource is you need some confidence.
02:38:10
Speaker
It's a dangerous line to fall into the ego, the so the id, the the voice in your head telling you that like this is great. Or not great. Or not great. But regardless, right like that voice...
02:38:28
Speaker
It can be a guiding thing, but you like I said earlier, and I truly mean this, and I think ah if you so if anything, and this whole, where like um we're going to go for three hours.
02:38:43
Speaker
This three-hour podcast. Oh, shit. This three-plus-hour podcast. If anything sticks, there it's that you hear this.
02:38:54
Speaker
You, young filmmaker out there. The thing that matters the most is that you are determined to complete the goal that you wanted to stick out and strike out and that you do it.
02:39:09
Speaker
that you do like It doesn't matter if you have a jumbo jet or bunch of cardboard. You do it and you do it the best that you can. You persevere and that you have you believe in yourself because no one is going to tell you that you can do it. like And if you do have people telling you can do it, they probably like want your money.
02:39:36
Speaker
or telling you telling you you can't too, right? Yeah. Oh my God, dude. The shit that we got for fucking dickhead. i remember just like people who haven't even seen it. That's the scary part, right? Like how many people are on board when they haven't seen it? It's like, dude, you haven't seen the film. Well, not only that, dude, I just remember like the pushback for some of the stuff in the script that we were so sure about.
02:40:01
Speaker
And we were like, and and it was just like, we did and we backed down because it was like, oh, maybe we did go too far. No, we didn't go far enough. You dumb fuck. We like, we had to push.
02:40:15
Speaker
We had to like, we had to bring it there. The 110%, they had to be bigger, larger than life. Well, we expressed our reservations on that.
02:40:26
Speaker
And we gave in. So, buddy, go ahead. That's my thought. Believe in yourself. Work hard. And the other... and And, you know, fucking... You have to fucking reach out.
02:40:44
Speaker
This isn't a thing... ah Let me say the one last thing, I guess. And I'm sorry. I've been saying a lot of last things. no, no. Please. This is about us. It's all about us.
02:40:56
Speaker
You... you have to have a community to do this. And you need that input.
02:41:07
Speaker
I just literally shit on like, oh, the input we got was was wrong and we kind of caved in. But it was valuable to know that we were dancing on that line.
02:41:21
Speaker
And even though we were cowards and kind of backed down, we shouldn't have. And I think,
02:41:32
Speaker
I don't know. What do you feel about this? Like, it's important to kind of share your work to get an idea. Like fresh perspective is so rewarding and dangerous.
02:41:46
Speaker
So what do you like, sharing your work and getting those critiques. but What do you feel? Well, that's that's a tough one.
02:41:57
Speaker
I think you should listen to the critique and the other points of views that tell you to change things. And I think you should lean on that side.
02:42:09
Speaker
Unless you have a very distinct understanding of what your film is. And if you have a very distinct understanding of what your film is, then you you'll know what can stay and can go.
02:42:21
Speaker
But if you don't have that, it's probably better to lean on the other side of what people want. And I think you see that a lot, right? Because ah big budget movies, they have the test screening audience, right?
02:42:36
Speaker
And then they vote on what they want to see and what they don't want to see. And then the studios will actually go with what the audience wants for that. And there's so many movies that have been ruined because of that.
02:42:48
Speaker
So I think you need to I guess as a rule of thumb, just lean in the perspective of others. And unless you know what you're really fucking doing and talking about, then you have to trust in yourself.
Discussion on Notoriously Bad Films
02:43:03
Speaker
But it's always better to give your, to yield to critique. Okay. You know, you got, you got to have that humility in your work. And your final question, sir.
02:43:16
Speaker
Yeah. So I have a final question. um So you wrote on here, final question. And I wrote, well, I got a final question.
02:43:27
Speaker
And what my final question is, and this is a little off the cuff, buddy. So i forgive me for asking this of you. um Because I wrote mine down.
02:43:39
Speaker
But you didn't have a chance, and it and it's definitely a question that should have taken some thought. But of the films you've seen in, let's say, the past year, what is a film that means the good, the bad, and the ugly?
02:43:53
Speaker
So, I can start off real quick with the ugly. Because recently, we I tried to watch a movie, and we just turned it off. Because it was... nothing was like, it was as, it was really bad. And the movie was called, um, murder size.
02:44:11
Speaker
And it is a film like exercise, but murder size. I think I've heard of that. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you probably saw it on the Plex and I thought, Oh, this will be one of those like, so bad. It's good. Dumb, like Z level movie with, you know, terrible acting and boobs. And, but,
02:44:32
Speaker
No, it was just so much worse. and and how was it worse? Like I said, one of the things about low-budget films or bad like films that films that just stand out in the ugly category to me is that the fucking everything every scene feels either too long or too short in the worst way.
02:44:59
Speaker
I don't feel like there's the pacing. The pacing is always off in bad, but in really bad movies. And you really fucking feel it. Yeah. um
02:45:13
Speaker
And that was the thing was like, okay, I already knew the acting was going to be bad. I knew the lighting would be dog shit and it would just be like the same gels over and over again. Like,
02:45:27
Speaker
That's what you can expect from a lot of these like super low-budget, cheap movies. But damn, dude, you can at least edit. o Right? like There's no reason the edits on these films should suck as bad as they do.
02:45:42
Speaker
yeah And then we'll go for the bad. Because I just watched a fantastic bad movie last night. It was called Hawk the Slayer. 1982 and it's a sword and sorcery film about this whose brother murders his wife to be because he wanted to marry her and his quest to enlist the help of an elf a dwarf a giant and um fuck I think there was one more and this one armed priest and they have to go and save this nun from essentially like a one armed beast and a one arm yeah and like dude the elf shoots like 900 like arrows a second but it's just like them like cutting the same shot of him drawing the bow back and
02:46:37
Speaker
It's sped up motion over and over and over again. so it's like, do do, do, do, do. And then like all of a sudden, like you just see a bunch of dudes just explode with arrows. And then the one-armed priest has an automatic crossbow that's like a gun. And he's just like, that he's just like, and he's killing people. And the giant has a giant hammer and he just like smashes skulls and shit.
02:46:58
Speaker
And, Hawk is just this guy. He has a sword that has a hand on it and has a glowing orb at the bottom and he can teleport. He has telekinesis and all these powers. And I'm like, what was his movie called? Hawk the Slayer.
02:47:13
Speaker
the Slayer. Okay. mean, it's like a your in the sense that it's like, yeah dude, the people and then for no reason at all, the elf talks like a computer.
02:47:25
Speaker
and he's like, I'm the last of my kind. I'm so tired of murdering. I wish I could just move on and live with the rest of my people. But I'm here for you, Hawk. And then Hawk's like, thanks.
02:47:37
Speaker
Cool, bro. at The guy that plays Hawk is like the worst actor that's ever lived. But he's hot and has a six pack. So he's the guy. and it You know, you know was one of the coolest things about Yore was they like built a spaceship to fly off into the sunset. Mm-hmm.
02:47:57
Speaker
Do you remember that at the very end? That yeah craft they made? That was fucking cool, dude. like See? And that's like a good bad film.
02:48:07
Speaker
They didn't have to make a vehicle or aircraft that could fly off into the horizon. yeah But they did Yore. So one of the best things... So there's two really great things about Hawk the Slayer.
02:48:20
Speaker
One, there's like this witch that's all powerful and everyone just calls her a woman. so woman, save us. And she's like, all right, I guess I got to. And the other thing is the guy was the the villain, the evil villain, the Hawk's brother.
02:48:39
Speaker
He was burned by the the woman that he wanted to marry, which was Hawk's wife. She burned him. And no matter what the wizards do, like the dark wizards, they can't heal it but they can numb the pain by using their like dark magic on his face.
02:48:56
Speaker
So there's like all these weird scenes where he's just like, ah the the evil villain like walks in and he's super evil. Like, they did a great job. Like, he's just like, I don't give a fuck.
02:49:09
Speaker
What's the matter with you? I'm going to fuck you and burn your entire village. And it's like, oh, wow, he's crazy. He's evil. yeah But he he like walks in. He's like, the pain.
02:49:20
Speaker
Heal me, wizard. Heal me. and then the wizard zaps his face. It's like all green and like shitty 80s effects. And he's like, ah, the pain. It's subsided.
02:49:33
Speaker
and it's like it's like a best of the worst movie. like But one of the ones that you're like, wow, that's actually kind of good. So yeah, Hawk the Slayer. Check it out. That's my bad movie. And then for a great film that I've watched recently.
02:49:48
Speaker
ah I would say and so Hawk Hawk is so bad. It's good. right Oh, yeah. I loved it. OK, I'll definitely I was like, I want to watch this like right now again after. OK.
02:50:00
Speaker
um Because it takes a while to kind of get into because a lot happens. And you're like, this movie sucks. And then the movie, and then it's like, oh, you need to go gather all the heroes.
02:50:12
Speaker
And then the elf shows up and the giant shows up and then the midget shows up. I mean, sorry, the dwarf shows up and it's like, wow, dude, this cast is incredible. But let me I've been talking too long, but let me talk about a film that I watched recently, which was on the Oscar Best Picture list, which was Sentimental Value.
02:50:31
Speaker
And I had this suspicion that I just wasn't going to love it. It was going to be a film I appreciated because it was going to be well acted and had a good script and everything.
02:50:45
Speaker
But it literally left me speechless. i remember I woke up early to watch it because like if I watch movies where the kids are running around, like I just can't pay attention and i subtitles are hard because the movie is mostly subtitled Norwegian, I think. um
02:51:09
Speaker
i was just blown away by the performances. and Also, lot i like saw a lot of not myself because, well, maybe my, even some of myself and Stellan Starsguard where he's like, I had to fuck all those women because it made my art better.
02:51:30
Speaker
and I'm like, yeah, I get it. You know, as a it's a joke. i You know, I, uh, uh, Stellan Starsguard, you crazy bastard.
02:51:43
Speaker
You can't fuck for art. Uh huh. Yeah. But I mean, but, the The story it sets itself up in this, it's very pretentious. like the The opening of the film is like, when I was a child, I wrote an essay as if I was my house. And here is the essay.
02:52:08
Speaker
and then it's like the story of the house like telling it the story of its life. which I kind of liked. That's so lame. It works pretty well in the film. You'll you'll see.
02:52:18
Speaker
Oh, God. That sounds like a ghost story. It might be a little bit like that. I don't know. Have you even seen that film? You said I couldn't watch it until I watched it with you fucking ah either on acid mushrooms in the backyard on the big biggest wall screen. Dude, can you get it can you kidnap me for like a weekend? Jesus Christ. Let's do it.
02:52:39
Speaker
okay She's a little Mexican. You can hold her out hostage. Just bring the kids. Katie will watch them all and we can be delinquents. We can't do that to Katie. Yeah, she loves it. She owes me. I'll go on my own. She owes me.
02:52:53
Speaker
um But yeah, buddy, what about you? i answered. My good, my bad, and ugly film. What were yours? Wait, what was the ugly? The ugly film was Murder Size.
02:53:05
Speaker
Okay. And the good? The good. Like a legit good. a Sentimental value. Really? Yeah. Even though you said that was a pretentious piece of shit? Not a piece of shit, but it's very pretentious, but in a way that I enjoyed a lot.
02:53:20
Speaker
Okay. Okay. So, good, the bad, and this is within the last year, so it didn't have to be like new films or anything. Yeah. Okay.
02:53:31
Speaker
So, my good was The 400 Blows, which was like one of the first French New Wave movies. That's Truffaut. That started all. all Yeah, Truffaut.
02:53:42
Speaker
And then, Nouveau Vogue, which was by Linklater about the French New Wave and Godard and all them.
02:53:53
Speaker
Fuck, dude. I love those fucking films. Talking about pretentious. did you see it? Yes, I did. I loved it. Did you not love it? loved it. Okay. I mean, even though you might not like French New Wave, you loved it. Did it not give you a romanticism towards that era of filmmaking? It did, but it also made me so mad because I was like, fuck you, fucking Godard. Like,
02:54:18
Speaker
not meeting your schedule, just being a complete asshole, just being like, ah, we are done shooting today. Like, go home. Like, there's nothing more here. Like, dude, like, we can't, we shot for like every weekend for 30 days and like, no one's going to give a shit about like our fucking new wave. Like our new wave is like putting on a new diaper.
02:54:36
Speaker
um but yeah but but i love it dude i fucking loved it because that's the dream that is but all say the dream is the fucking french new wave that's what we're all striving for making movies with our friends doing whatever the fuck we want and just being fucking renaissance like not like not nazis but renaissance like like fucking like creators and like ah collaborators and like right it was like oh like uh ah Claude Chaubert or whatever the fuck that guy's name is and Truffaut all these dudes are like, they they weren't like this...
02:55:14
Speaker
It's not like, you know how we think of like Michelangelo and Shakespeare and these great artists of the past. It's like they're fucking these on this monolith of greatness. No, it's more like ah Hemingway. Yes. i Fitzgerald. reminded me in a lot of ways of Midnight in Paris.
02:55:30
Speaker
i was like It was like, i ah it captured just like this moment of these people just being people that we admonish so much as film nerds because... But to shift the paradigm too.
02:55:44
Speaker
Because they did. And you owe a lot to, if love it or hate it, but you have to give credit to modern filmmaking to the new French New Wave.
02:55:54
Speaker
That's why it all sucks now. You ever see Breathless? Motherfucker can't edit. it But... God damn, did you not fall in love with the actress that played...
02:56:06
Speaker
The ah woman, ah the girl in the film. All all of them, right? like Oh, man. In my opinion, Nouvelle Vogue was the best film of the year, personally. All right, that's the good. what Come on, give me some bad and ugly. Well, the the other good was Train Dreams. You haven't seen that? I'll watch this weekend. I was pleasantly surprised with it.
02:56:31
Speaker
I thought it was a really good film. That's why when you said like, hey, you know, the Best Picture nominations, there's nothing bad. It was like, yeah, all these films are pretty fucking good. You know, they're they're solid.
02:56:43
Speaker
a Even it like, I think F1 is probably the weakest one on the list. But it's like, like you said, it's exactly what it should be. And because it's exactly what it should be, it deserves a place on the list. Because how many films are exactly what they're supposed to be?
02:57:02
Speaker
There's so many films, few films that are exactly what they're supposed to be. There's so many films that are, like, more than they should be, less than they should be, but not many films that are exactly what they're supposed to be. And F1 is that.
02:57:16
Speaker
So I think you have to get some credit. um But for bad, like... Like a bad good film. ah I think this is the hardest category to succeed in.
02:57:32
Speaker
It is Like to make a ah bad film that's good. that's That's by far the hardest. you're either Either you're going to make a good film or a bad film. You're not going to get in the middle. But what about like Leviathan? You talked about like Leviathan earlier.
02:57:46
Speaker
But I don't remember it that well. I mean, I saw it as a kid. Oh, okay. I've seen that movie many times. I like it a lot. ah because No, I remember loving it, but it was like it was one of those movies that I saw as a kid that I knew I liked, but I don't remember. Honestly, for me, a better film would be Tremors.
02:58:06
Speaker
you know Which I don't think anyone could argue is a not a good film. Yeah, Tremors ah trevmors is great. like that I don't even think you could... If you call it Tremors bad, it's like ah i there's no conversation left. like you We're not on the same wavelength.
02:58:25
Speaker
Tremors is a great film. It is great. like that's That's good. Yeah. ah But as far as like a good, bad film, the only film that I saw that could really meet that criteria, if anything. Sinners? maybe nothing can. No, not even Sinners. No, Monkey Paw.
02:58:45
Speaker
What? Monkey Paw was fucking awesome. That's what I'm saying. A good, bad film. I could see that. Because you know what? Yeah, because Monkey Paw was so fucking stupid, ridiculous. It was just like...
02:58:58
Speaker
What the fuck am I watching? i I'm on board, but... There's this thing. Oh my God, this is so bad. Osgood Perkins has this style of dialogue that I cannot fucking stand.
02:59:09
Speaker
Like, all his characters talk like ah they're fucking robots from the fifty s It's like what I imagine the Fallout robots talk like because they stopped technology in the fifty s And it's like...
02:59:23
Speaker
they just they're just so weird. And the way that they fucking say things, it's, I don't know. It's like, the dude's not fucking, it's like an alien downloaded English and then was like, I'm going to write a script.
02:59:36
Speaker
But he never spoke English before or never had an actual conversation with another human being. Because it's like, did you say all your prayers? That's good.
02:59:47
Speaker
If you don't say your prayers, you know what will happen. What will happen? If you don't say your prayers, it's not good. All right, darling. I love you.
03:00:00
Speaker
Please say your prayers. Good night. And that's long legs. Yeah. Yeah, no. That's why like monkey paw was so. It was interesting because, you know, I saw. um Is it black coat's daughter? Is that the one?
03:00:18
Speaker
Dude, that that film's fucking amazing. I think I turned you on to it. was dude, you got to watch this. You did. is great And I love it. I love it lot. And it's a great film. And then you see his other stuff it's like, Jesus Christ, this is a shit.
03:00:32
Speaker
But like Monkey Paws, there's that scene where... There's that scene with the school bus and there's like a bunch of kids outside.
03:00:42
Speaker
And then like a diesel truck just drives right past. And then they're all dead. Like it it clipped every single person sticking their head out the window. And I was like, what the fuck am I watching? This is not that that's serious, but I love it. Well, i I just remember the pool.
03:01:03
Speaker
What was the pool? lady that like explodes because the yeah electricity pole falls into the pool. and She just explodes blood and guts all over him. And he's like, no, like I fucking know why'd you jump in?
03:01:17
Speaker
She dives in and she just like explodes because the water's electrified. No, dude. Yeah. Yeah, dude. That's what I'm saying. Like... Like, Monkey Paw, I don't know if it is a so good, a so bad it's good, but it got pretty close, because that's that's a hard fucking bar to hit.
03:01:37
Speaker
I mean, talking about The Room. You're talking about Yore. You're talking about Ninja 3 Dominion. Domination. Like, Those films don't just come around. you know they're hard Those are hard bars to hit. yeah you know I don't even think Kurosawa could hit that shit. Kubrick couldn't hit that shit. No.
03:01:58
Speaker
There's the truth to that. It takes special... Okay, so what's the ugly? What's your ugly? So ugly to me is just bad films. And so I just named a few films that I saw that where i was like, wow, this is bad.
03:02:11
Speaker
ah Number one was Tron Aries. Oh, you watched it? ah I'm a Tron fan of like the new era. I'm a Jared Leto fan. But I've seen Tron Aries like three times. Three times?
03:02:26
Speaker
Hold on. And I've fallen asleep every single fucking time. I've never made it a bate it all the way through. Because it's like the fucking worst thing I've ever seen in my life. i it's like the It's the epitome of everything bad that you hate.
03:02:40
Speaker
ah like compressed into one thing. Damn. I couldn't even bring myself to watching it. No, I didn't. Dude, when I saw the initial trailers for Tron Ares, I was like, this shit looks cool.
03:02:56
Speaker
Now, I will say for Tron Ares, the best thing is the soundtrack. That fucking soundtrack, the fact it didn't get nominated is a crime. Because it should have won. It should have won a nomination. Like...
03:03:09
Speaker
It's by Nine Inch Nails, Trent Reznor. That fucking soundtrack is phenomenal. The other one that I saw that I thought was shit was I Know What You Did Last Summer. no Oh, yeah.
03:03:22
Speaker
Did you watch that? I've seen it twice. I tried watching it twice. I couldn't make it through either time. i The second ah first time I didn't make it through. The second time I watched it all the way through and it's a pile of shit.
03:03:37
Speaker
It's bad, huh? It's real bad. It's fucking bad. like It's bad. It has a couple. The only thing you could say for it is like it has a couple cool kills.
03:03:48
Speaker
but even Oh, really? Not even. Wow. not even well like the The whole story, the way they like shoehorn Jennifer Love Hewitt and ah Friday Prince Jr. back into the film, and they make it all about Friday Prince Jr. It's all about him? Finally going crazy. Oh, yeah.
03:04:11
Speaker
He's the killer. He is? Yeah. i Like I said, I never made it that far. a double There's like multiple killers because the other killer...
03:04:24
Speaker
one of the other kids is a killer. Yeah. It's fucking stupid, but yeah, dude, that's it, man. Let's do that. That was bad. The other, the other like, and this is a legit bad one that I think if anyone watches it, they can understand.
03:04:40
Speaker
And I know I did a breakdown somewhere. Um,
03:04:45
Speaker
I don't know where I put it. But it was Predator Wasteland. Not Badlands. Wasteland. I'm going to peak no waste i'm goingnna pe talk about Wasteland. I'll be back real fast.
03:04:56
Speaker
I put on ah Predator's Wasteland and me and my dad were watching it because I thought it was Predator's Badlands. So I was so excited to show my dad. i was like, hey, dude, let's let's we're going watch Predator movie. We're gonna watch a Predator movie. And I put it on. And it was like, this does not look like what I imagined it was going to look like. I think this is something else. And sure enough, it was Predator's Wasteland, not Badlands. And my dad was so mad at me because I changed it on him. and I was like, dad, ain't going to let you watch this. this is
03:05:30
Speaker
This is elderly abuse. But Predator's Wasteland was one of the ugliest films I've ever seen. It's it's bad in set design. It's bad in casting. It's bad in acting. It's bad in set design, art direction.
03:05:49
Speaker
It's bad in practical effects. It's bad in directing. It's bad in editing Sound design might have been okay. I don't know. ah i don't know what else I could have been okay with.
03:06:03
Speaker
But it was it was pretty much bad in every way a film could be bad. You know, you watch it, you know you're not watching Predators Badlands. and And that was one of the worst things I've ever seen in my life.
03:06:16
Speaker
And And that's where I go back again to like what's a good film versus a bad film, is that we inherently understand what these films are. like You see a good film, you know it's a good film. You see a bad film, you know it's a bad film. Speaking of bad films, we got a script to read. What separates your from Tokestore? Oh, shit.
03:06:38
Speaker
All right. Let's do it. You got the the page open? and The inevitable cancellation of the Sally Springfield show written by her biggest fan.
03:06:56
Speaker
So do you want it is that it do you want to be Sally Springfield? Who do you think? You're the director, Mr. Director. you want to be a girl? do you want to the girls or the boys?
03:07:09
Speaker
I'll do whatever you think I should. i you No, pick. Girls or the boys? I'll pick the girls. Okay.
03:07:20
Speaker
Then you're going to be Sally Springfield. Okay. I'll do ah the announcer. There's a lot of characters in this. Probably and not a great script for us on the podcast, but I finished it. But you wrote I finished it recently. oh Who's going to do the script read? I'll do this.
03:07:40
Speaker
Okay. You have a lot of dialogue as the ladies. Oh, fuck. The inevitable cancellation of the Sally Springfield show.
03:07:51
Speaker
Interior TV studio, day. Relentlessly upbeat music. The set is aggressively cheerful. Too many pastel couches.
03:08:04
Speaker
Announcer. From a network that legally cannot apologize enough. Give it up for Sally Springfield. Sally enters to thunderous applause. She basks, soaks in it.
03:08:20
Speaker
Refuses to sit.
03:08:25
Speaker
Refuses to sit. ah ah Thank you, thank you I deserve this. Some of you clapped as you bent it.
03:08:37
Speaker
The rest of you all work on it. Welcome to the Sally Springfield Show, where messy people come to make my life better. Woo!
03:08:49
Speaker
Sally Springfield. Today's episode was almost canceled because Ligo said, Silly, this feels dangerous. So obviously doubled down.
03:09:04
Speaker
One theme today is my partner is not what I thought they were. She gestures grandly. Please welcome a man who claims he is.
03:09:18
Speaker
Checks card always already smirking. A vampire. Vladimir enters pale, immaculate, unsettlingly composed.
03:09:35
Speaker
Oh, shit. I got to.
03:09:39
Speaker
Circling him. Okay. First off, no accent. That's disappointing. i I lost it in the nineteen thirty s
03:09:50
Speaker
audience Right, and I lost my soul in basic cable. Sally sits crossing her legs. So let's get this straight. You're saying you're immortal.
03:10:01
Speaker
Yes. You drink blood. Yes. And you still dress like a divorced magician. Vladimir nods calmly.
03:10:14
Speaker
We did some research. Sally gestures to Portal TV. A graphic pops up. Vampire check. Do mirrors work? I have no reflection.
03:10:28
Speaker
We tried it backstage. Camera three just quit. Audience laughter. Nervous. Garlic. Mild allergy.
03:10:40
Speaker
Of course, everyone's got something. The lights the stage light above them buzzes. and coffins. A memory foam.
03:10:52
Speaker
The audience loses it. Now we have another very special guest. And folks, this is where things get tragic. Please welcome...
03:11:05
Speaker
Marlene. Marlene, early 30s, enters. Pregnant, anxious, waving weekly. Oh, look at you. Just glowing with precious delight. Poor decisions.
03:11:21
Speaker
Poor decisions, precious delight. What the fuck am I reading? Jesus Christ. ah Audience laughs.
03:11:30
Speaker
I didn't know. I didn't know he was a vampire at first. Of course not. None of us knows anything until it's too late. Sally winks into the camera with a sly smirk.
03:11:44
Speaker
Ladies, if he won't meet your friends, won't go out during the day, and hisses at your rumba, that's a red flag.
03:11:59
Speaker
Applause.
03:12:02
Speaker
He said he was a night security consultant. That's actually pretty good. Marlene, who is your father? Who is the father? Who is the father? Vladimir. Audience explodes.
03:12:19
Speaker
Wow. To Vladimir. I thought vampires couldn't do that. We cannot. I'm not the father, I swear. So your baby is a medical mystery, a supernatural event, and already more interesting than this audience. Audience moves. Boo! bo The light above creaks louder.
03:12:44
Speaker
That light is fine. The fixture drops. Crash! Just missing Marlene. Pandemonium. That's adrenaline, folks. That's real.
03:12:57
Speaker
Sally to camera. We'll be right back after this. Or not. the Depending on liability. A fake commercial graphic. The Sally Springfield Show is sponsored by Meditation.
03:13:10
Speaker
And now, back from commercial. Studio still shaking. Marlene's husband is here. Ooh.
03:13:19
Speaker
He begged us not to come out, so obviously, welcome Frank! Frank storms out, drunk, clutching a steak. You did this on TV?
03:13:34
Speaker
Oh, he's angry, angry. You're pregnant with that! Frank thrusts the point of his steak towards Vladimir Sir, please don't put the point the weapon until we get close-up. Audience roars. I'm gonna kill him! You're welcome to a try.
03:13:57
Speaker
This lands hard. Frank charges! Vladimir dodges effortlessly. Oh, this is my Emmy reel. Audience members start shouting, let him fight.
03:14:10
Speaker
My cousin's a vampire. Sally ruined my marriage. Security rushes in too late. Vladimir lunges again.
03:14:22
Speaker
Frank lunges again. Vladimir catches the snake, snaps it. Audience screams. Someone throws a chair. Sally! Sally! Sally!
03:14:33
Speaker
This is why people don't trust experts. Another light falls. Smash. Smoke. Sparks. Alarms. Cut it! Cut it now! Cut it! No, they need to see The feed cuts to black.
03:14:48
Speaker
Interior. Destroyed studio. Night. Ruins. Broken lights. Silence. Sally stands alone, staring. A network executive appears.
03:15:01
Speaker
You crossed every line.
03:15:05
Speaker
They will talk about this show for decades. She turns defiant. They'll miss me. No, they won't.
03:15:18
Speaker
He leaves. Sally looks into the dead camera.
03:15:26
Speaker
They always do. The end. All right. yeah
03:15:33
Speaker
All right, buddy. What'd you think of us the inevitable cancellation of Sally Springfield? Well, let me ask you this, buddy. How does it feel to be back?
03:15:45
Speaker
Um...
03:15:49
Speaker
It feels pretty... Or are you not back? And this is the last script we're going to read until who knows what. it feels pretty good. Yeah? Um...
03:15:59
Speaker
this was another one of the scripts where I had like written some of it and just never finished. I was just like, i just, let me just finish it. Even if it's like short and to the point, like let's just get it finished.
03:16:12
Speaker
And it's just a story I've always had in my head of, of this Jerry Springfield ripoff that everything goes wrong. And yeah, that's the Sally Springfield show.
03:16:25
Speaker
Wasn't Sally Springfield like a real person? Shit, maybe. I'm thinking of Jerry Springfield and Sally... Who was that blonde lady who was like a Jerry Springfield? Sally Struthers? who she has that Sally Struthers?
03:16:38
Speaker
No. I don't know. But you know who I'm talking about, right? Ricky Lake? Yeah. That was close. well Well, buddy. I think this was a good podcast. a aside Aside from the delay and ah everything.
03:16:56
Speaker
yeah I think we accomplished today's tasks. All right, buddy. And with that, i say cut