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TSP EP 149: A Brief But Inexplicable Examination of Modern Filmmaking Practices or Why the Script is Better in our Heads
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In this episode, Tom and Steve, with their extremely deep knowledge of the extreme discuss the implications of world events, Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise fighting to the death in a not so recent AI video, with the main topic being on the merits of short films for the filmmaker, and finally we get another script for Tom's Masterscript Threatre!
So come along with us as we learn a thing or two!
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Transcript
Introduction & 'Clean Noise' Concept
00:00:00
Speaker
Cool. Yeah, that helped out last time ah for the other episode. was like, oh, finally, clean noise. Clean noise. what ah Is that an oxymoron? Yeah, so ah this might be a very long episode, so... Okay.
00:00:14
Speaker
so I don't know. so Did you go through the notes? Settle in. No, not at all. I... i Even though I told you like, yeah, buddy, don't worry. I'll i'll go through oh don't worry. All right. You know what happened? Like I was telling you earlier, I was doing my taxes because I have to finish them um in two days.
00:00:31
Speaker
And I was sitting at the computer just like literally falling asleep working. Yeah. i was like, fuck this. I'll go to bed. um And then, of course, I'm alone with the kids, so… I haven't had a chance
Twin Shadows Podcast & Modern Filmmaking
00:00:44
Speaker
to actually look down. I did see the AI video of Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt.
00:00:48
Speaker
Fighting about Epstein. Is that a discussion point? Yeah. Okay, so see, I did do some studying. ah Did you watch the spec trailer for the Takis? Yes, I did. Okay. I thought that was AI for a second, too. Yeah. Because the audio didn't seem to sync with the mouth, but I think that was a real video, right? It was, yeah.
00:01:06
Speaker
See, that's kind of scary when it's... Well, that's the... I'm not entirely sure. that's a We can probably get into that topic with the... when we talk about the Tom Cruise video ah and just how skeptical you kind of have to be now of everything. Yeah, you really do. It's like, it was always bad.
00:01:26
Speaker
But we didn't know how bad it could be and how how bad it's going to get. Yeah. And so with that, ah how bad it's going to get, let's ah let's dive into this is Twin Shadows Podcast, episode 148. A brief, but inexplicable. Oh my God, it's already started. You came up with this title.
00:01:45
Speaker
yeah Tongue tied already. i haven't even if we always started the episode. A brief but inexplicable examination of modern filmmaking practices or why the script is better in our heads.
00:01:56
Speaker
This is the Twin Shadows podcast, a podcast about film by filmmakers and filmmaking. Jesus Christ. Hey, you made it through. good Good luck, everybody. Good, good, good, good, good. to To today, Junior. Well, ah cheers, buddy. Cheers. in In front of us, we got some beer and some whiskey. We're going old school. This is a... It's kind of going back a little bit. We haven't quite... We haven't really had an episode like this in a while where it's...
00:02:22
Speaker
We have some actual news and things to discuss. I wrote a script. oh yeah and I don't think we read a single script in all 2025. No, we did. not write I didn't write one.
00:02:34
Speaker
I was going through my notes. Really? You didn't have one saved on your drive? No. The only script I wrote last year at all was the Rico, the short in the diner. That was the only script I wrote last year. Damn. That's crazy. I could have sworn you did one at least in the beginning of the year. Nope.
00:02:51
Speaker
Shit. I was like, holy shit. so Because I was going through and i and um my goal right now is I have a bunch that are like half written. I'm like, I'm going to finish those for the podcast. So at least those I don't have to.
00:03:05
Speaker
I can say that every script that's in that folder is done. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it's just it kind of made me depressed just going through. it's like It's like, yeah, 2025 really fucking sucked. It wasn't a great year a macro level. Of course, there were good days. It's unfair to say. Just as we say, bad year for film doesn't mean every movie was bad.
Challenges in Filmmaking: VFX & AI
00:03:28
Speaker
It's just the majority of films that we watched in theaters or were released that year just... Sucked. And you know if you're judging on a bell curve or an average, and you have a bunch of stinkers, you know it brings down the average quite a bit.
00:03:41
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Yeah, 2020, I mean, we had our New Year's episode, um and that got... ah Any example of how bad the year it was, our wrap-up of 2025 goes corrupted. There you go. That's the word I was like, the file got corrupted, our guest's audio. So, you know, that episode's gone, um which is a perfect encapsulation of the year. It was pretty bad, but...
00:04:08
Speaker
I don't know. There were definitely some positives. I also look at the positives. I mean, we made some huge strides with the film. At least what this podcast is aimed at and on. Yeah. We made huge strides with that.
00:04:20
Speaker
You know, audio's... More or less done. Color's done. i mean, really, it's just on us to get off our asses. And that's a good spot to be in. Yeah, definitely. You know? um Well, right now, we're also kind of just waiting for money to come back up.
00:04:33
Speaker
Yeah. From taxes, because it did take a lot of money to finish color and audio. Yeah. um So, the last thing that we need to wipe out is finishing VFX, because...
00:04:47
Speaker
We have about that fucking green rectangle. I mean, we got to get rid of it in at least the shots that it's very bad and we have to fix. ah it's It's just too noticeable, too bad.
00:04:57
Speaker
Yeah, but thankfully there's only a few, right? Where it's not worried's very bad, yeah. There's scenes where it's noticeable, but we can also, that's, it's an acceptable level of bad. It can be like, it's part of the charm. It's like if the movie ever made any money, the first thing it would be probably go to would be if the movie, if it was going to be released on Netflix or Shudder or something like that, it would be like, okay, you got to fix that. You got to fix that little bit right there.
00:05:25
Speaker
you know pay like a couple grand to get that fixed because we're going to probably pay some freelancer $1,000 to fix a couple shots and we're going to cry. um yeah I mean, we'll have to see the cost. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, because I mean, there is a...
00:05:41
Speaker
there is a ah The more you spend, it's not necessarily even the like the better the quality. It's the more professional the person as well in a weird sense. Yeah. um Because the people that – not paying for the end result, right?
00:05:56
Speaker
Yeah, and the thing that we've definitely discovered with through freelancing a lot through post, because that's just kind of how we rock and roll and and can afford things, is that a lot of people are just fucking scumbags and scummy. and ah They promise you that they'll do things and they don't follow through and then they just disappear with your money and then you just are like, oh, yeah.
00:06:20
Speaker
yeah And then you think, oh, yeah, and then and we'll get into AI later. But it's like, and if you know if people shit on AI because it's taking jobs away from people, I'm like, that made me never want to go and get another VFX freelancer
AI & Freelancing Ethics
00:06:32
Speaker
again. Like, that kind of cut me off from that entirely.
00:06:34
Speaker
Really? Because it was it was the amount of effort just went into just getting the files to the person and getting and going through and getting the work flowing in the process. And then he was sending stuff back. And then for him there's to just dip was...
00:06:50
Speaker
was I don't know. It felt like getting... It was like shit over again, but like not as bad because we didn't spend as much money. We didn't lose that much. Only $800. um But... But maybe that's also yeah where the scams happen more often. Because if it's a small person like us, like what are we going to Yeah. there's like We're not taking this guy to court. There's no recourse that's going to happen. You kind of just get to scam someone out of...
00:07:16
Speaker
money and that's why it's and it's like a it's like a dance because i probably shouldn't have paid anything again until we had more stuff back yeah but he was kind of holding it ransom and he was like hey i finished you need to pay and i was like yeah but we don't have anything and he was like he's like okay i'm uploading and i was like okay he's uploading so i paid him and then He disappeared as soon as the the check cleared. You know, i was like, you Well, he didn't get all of the money though. No, because I was like, I was like i i didn't go full dupe. I was like, okay, I'll pay you a little bit more.
00:07:51
Speaker
And then once everything has cleared, I'll pay the rest. Yeah,
Systemic Corruption & Celebrity Influence
00:07:55
Speaker
we'll test it. Well, you know, that's also why it's so important to just find people to work with. Because I messaged Summer just to thank her. I need a message her again.
00:08:04
Speaker
But I told her, I was like, yeah, I want to work with you again, like for a jog at night. I'd like to get her on there. Probably be super cheap because, you know, it doesn't need a feature. It's not a feature. It doesn't need nearly as much work. And um the color profile is pretty um limited. So it's like it kind of is what it is.
00:08:24
Speaker
Also, it's not there's no crazy green rectangles or overexposure. Exactly. The actual quality of the of the footage is just made way more appropriate. yeah Yeah, it's just way easier to deal with. Because also, like I said, the color profile is not as large as the... um um dynamic range I don't think is as great as it is with the RED.
00:08:48
Speaker
So, you know, because the RED's a professional camera, you can really push and pull and work with the image. yeah Whereas what a jogging night shot on, it kind of is what it is, the image, you know? Yeah.
00:08:59
Speaker
Well, Summer was able, she's ah she's a wizard. Yeah, that's why it's like, okay, well, you know, I'll let you do it. I know you'll get it done right. And that's one thing I don't have to worry about. Well, damn the first topic, I guess we'll just jump into it. So ah this is a little this is not so much related to filmmaking as it is just the overall state of the world. And ah something I had asked Stephen about because I know this week kind of hit me a little hard ah about just...
00:09:28
Speaker
It's a bad sad week to be an American. um You have everything with the Epstein file releases and Pam Bondi. that I mean, utter travesty. um Of our system. everyone like People just being out and out blatantly racist and stupid about the Bad Bunny singing in Spanish thing.
00:09:48
Speaker
The fact that that was a controversy at all just shows you the state of the country. yeah um Sinners being nominated, most nominated film of all time. How can you find hope in these bleak times, Steven? It's nothing but sin.
00:10:01
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, well, with the government thing, it's, I don't think it's as sad because it's like, I'm just, it's finally being exposed with has always the rot that's always been there.
00:10:16
Speaker
Right? I mean, this rot has always been there since before I was born. You know, I mean, look at 9-11 and the weapons of mass destruction.
00:10:28
Speaker
Yeah. And what happened? We went over a million and murdered a million Iraqis. But, you know, yeah. But the people responsible for that just got rich and living good, happy lives.
00:10:42
Speaker
I mean, Colin Powell, he was the most tarnished, right? And he was like the only decent one in the administration and they... he had to take the fall what was that the woman's name Condoleezza Rice yeah she kind of got dragged a bit right Well, she's never been anything since. I can barely remember her name, so there you go. Because I remember she was a big figure at the time for that stuff. Yeah. um And that was like almost 30 years ago now. But you know, like look at Cheney. and And honestly, the sad part is the fact that Cheney, at the end of his life, he kind of became the good guy.
00:11:19
Speaker
Where he was like, Trump? No, this motherfucker is way too far. Yeah. But, you know, that's like this right has always been there. The only difference is is now it's just in front of everyone's eyes and now no one can deny it.
00:11:32
Speaker
You know, like especially like the conservative party. It's like that's been wrapped up in racism since fucking Reagan with the welfare i mean queen and all that shit. Since 1776 when we signed the Declaration of Independence. So we've been a it's always been a problem.
00:11:47
Speaker
yeah The thing was there's always at least until like I would say until Trump. like Obama especially, it it was always like, there was like this idea that there there was an ideal, an ideal that we held that we were trying to free, freedom was a thing that we were trying to express. Even though we were not good, we've never been a good country, we've never been a like positive force in the world. I mean, it's always been to like benefit the rich and Americans and the elite societies of the world. Like that's, it was right. And things are a little bit more out in the open, but it's like,
00:12:24
Speaker
It just makes you feel worse that it's out in the open because now the ideal is dead. Like, you know, they say the the only way to believe the American dream is to be asleep. don't know. I feel vindicated. It's like, ha, I told you it sucks. Yeah.
00:12:38
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, we always believed in that American dream. Right. And I think a lot of people still do. And and I think we are seeing good change. Like Trump said he's going to drain the swamp.
00:12:49
Speaker
All the dum-dums thought he was going to drain it, not realizing he is a swamp. But I think he might drain the swamp. He's kind of like Darth Vader. You know? He's like Anakin Skywalker. Here we go. true stephen Trump 2020 or No, he's going to be like Anakin Skywalker, right? He was supposed to save us, but then he became Darth Vader.
00:13:11
Speaker
And I think Epstein, I don't, i I was listening to one of our podcasts that we were talking about the Epstein files finally being released. And you're like, man, i don't think anything's going to come of this.
00:13:23
Speaker
And nothing's come of this yet. Yeah. But also a lot's been ah exposed to the people. And i don't see how I don't see how a lot of people are going to get out of this.
00:13:35
Speaker
i You know what? There's just so much. The thing is, I agree. i ah But part of me, my brain, the part that the logical part that's always like, Tom, you're dumb.
00:13:46
Speaker
It's like, bro, they are going to get away with it because that's just what these fuckers Yeah. Yeah. Like, it would be— I'm not saying they're going to go to prison, but I don't know if they'll be in office or have their powers of position.
00:13:59
Speaker
I mean, that would that could be the best that we can hope for, but damn, dude. It's scary out there, man. Well, have you been listening to any of those files and what's in them? Yeah, I've been reading about the files. There's some dark shit. The big thing that was the what was with me was the Pam Bondi hearing. Yeah.
00:14:17
Speaker
that Wasn't that ridiculous? I was just like, is it how is this real? like We're literally living in a satire like of the American people. Well, I always thought these committees were kind of like, there was legal systems attached to this. And it's like,
00:14:31
Speaker
what what are what what are Why were we even having these committees or these hearings? like They do nothing do nothing. Yeah, exactly. They solve nothing. They do nothing. Yeah. Just like the January 6th commission.
00:14:42
Speaker
what that did Nothing. Nothing happened. Did anything even come of that? like Maybe I didn't follow it closely enough, but nothing happened. And it's like Pam Bonney's there. Everyone who went pardoned. Yeah. Yeah, literally. yeah That's what happened.
00:14:55
Speaker
It didn't happen. And this week, it if for ah people out there that are trying to ignore that, just go ahead skip like probably the next five minutes. I'm going to try to, we'll try to wrap this up and get into the next wonderful topic of James Van Der Beek's death and the controversy surrounding that. So let's go ahead and skip ahead a couple of minutes for that if you want to. um But the last thing I have to say about it was that I was listening to that hearing. It's like these people are just like openly committing perjury and, ah
00:15:27
Speaker
Like they're exposing the victims' names and not the so perpetrators' names. And people – there were Democrats and other senators and members of the House of Congress that were pressing pretty hard.
00:15:45
Speaker
And it sounds good and sounds like, oh they're going hard and tough on her. But it's like – is anything going actually happen? But she's still the attorney general, so – Yeah.
00:15:56
Speaker
And with that, James Van Der Beek died. At the age of 48, Dawson's Creek actor succumbed to cancer. um While this is tragic, a debate sparked after a GoFundMe was launched the same day of his passing. Oh, yeah. And as of 2013, which was yesterday, Friday the 13th, $2.3 million dollars was raised.
00:16:16
Speaker
The criticism that was I want to discuss is the amount of hate, for lack of a better term, against the family and celebrity in general. Do you feel people are more likely to donate to a celebrity? Or is it just that the reach is really the only factor here?
00:16:31
Speaker
ah Well, I think ah Well, yeah, I think it's the reach. First, have you read anything about the controversy, like how people are like, this is not cool. Like he's actually still rich, even though he was selling off stuff to pay for his bills.
00:16:43
Speaker
Like he's still wealthy. Like they own millions of dollars of land and property. and well yeah Yeah. I wanted to ask a similar question or have a similar topic in the notes.
00:16:56
Speaker
um First off, did you ever watch Dawson's Creek? Because I didn't. No. Everyone's like, eh, James. It's like, where were you guys when he was alive? Jesus Christ. Yeah. Anyways. Where was Dawson?
00:17:08
Speaker
but I've maybe watched a couple episodes. but I maybe watched one. It would have been like, oh, I was watching Buffy and Dawson's Creek came on after Buffy. Yeah, so that that, It was something like that because I think they were both on the CW at the at the time yeah for a little bit.
00:17:23
Speaker
Yeah, I think Maybe. I'm not 100% sure. I was not a Dawson's Creek fan in any way. I never – Never got into that. but Although I was absolutely in love with Katie Holmes. so Yeah, I never was. Yeah?
00:17:35
Speaker
No. I liked a Party of Five. Neve Campbell or Jennifer LaFewitt? Yeah. I love you. I love you so much. I love you. it um But, yeah, because I was going to ask, because I guess before he passed, they bought a ranch or something for like $4.6 million? Yeah, that's what I heard. The ranch that they're living in in Texas. Yeah, okay. So, I mean, they brought a million-dollar home, and yet people still gave so that they could—
00:18:09
Speaker
ah to donate 2.3 million. I mean, a lot of people watched ah Dawson's Creek, right? I mean, it was a popular show. So a lot of people knew who he was and You know, if you didn't watch Dawson's Creek, there's probably a good chance you watched Varsity Blues. So, you know, mean, I watched Varsity Blues. I would say the name James Van Der Beek meant something. Yeah, you know you know who that is. If you were around at that time. If you were live during the late 90s, early 2000s, you probably have heard the name. Or a younger person, right? Yeah.
00:18:44
Speaker
So he has a lot of reach that can generate a lot for the family. I think there is probably some... ah There's misrepresentation where, you know, I heard he was selling off all of his stuff to afford his cancer treatment. So I was like, dang, like, shit, this is a sign that the medical system is completely fucked where a celebrity can't even, is going broke from yeah cancer treatment.
00:19:12
Speaker
And then I thought his family was destitute. And then on Reddit, I read a post where it said, yeah, they had, just before he passed, they bought a $4.6 million ranch that they're living at. I'm like, oh, okay, well.
00:19:24
Speaker
They're homeless like Kevin Spacey is homeless, right? yeah Oh, I sold my $9 million dollars mansion and now I live in ah an apartment in New York City that's only worth $900,000. I'm so poor and homeless. yeah It's like, okay.
00:19:38
Speaker
Oh, okay. And I get it. That's rubbing a lot of people the wrong way. but And I wanted to talk about it because I thought it was kind of fascinating because, you know, we we've we haven't personally launched any crowdfunding campaigns or anything.
Economic Challenges & Crowdfunding Disparities
00:19:52
Speaker
But well we know we know a lot of people who have. and And it's like, dude, these go nowhere. And it's like that this rich guy dies and people are just shoveling out their last yeah pennies to fucking make sure his family is taken care of.
00:20:05
Speaker
I mean, like, I think it was Zoe Saldana. Was this always Haldana? If I'm wrong, please let me know in the comments. Or you can you know reach out to us on social media.
00:20:16
Speaker
ah Real people listen to the show. um But yeah, she donated like $2,500 a month for the rest of the family's life or something like that. Oh, really? like She put a trust. She set up like a trust or something. where they're going to And I'm just thinking like, damn, dude, like...
00:20:33
Speaker
You know, like if Steven died tomorrow, you know, Karen would be calling like, you guys got any money? I'm like, I'll give you like 10 bucks, baby. But that's all I got. I'll give you $5. You want to buy my floors? I'll make it 10. Did you sell Steven's magic cards yet? Because that was his life insurance.
00:20:48
Speaker
Because damn, dude, you know, I think about it. It's like, that's why I wanted to talk about it was it's so, it is so night and day compared to like, right? All the campaigns that our friends try that, you know, we've talked about.
00:21:03
Speaker
And it's like, yeah, maybe we can get $1,000. And it's like, yeah, How different have that level of reach. Yeah. how different it is to have that level of reach Well, I mean, that's why it's cool to be fucking rich and famous, dude. I mean, you know, there's there's ah benefits to it. Just like Epstein we were talking about earlier. There's benefits to being these rich people who are doing, i mean, they talk about torture videos and fucking nine-year-olds and shit.
00:21:33
Speaker
and Babies. They're going to get away with it. Maybe babies. i don't know. You know, when when I was younger, I had to stop watching the news because I was like all absorbed with it during 9-11 and the Iraq war and what was going on.
00:21:47
Speaker
And it started to like really fuck with my system. Like my stomach was getting upset all the time and it was really physically causing me issues. I'm starting to get like that with this Epstein shit again because it's just like, what the fuck, man?
00:22:01
Speaker
And like you said, probably get away with it. And that's the benefit to being rich. And when we're poor, well, we're the ones getting fucked by Epstein. Yeah. Yeah, literally the victims are being fucking exposed.
00:22:13
Speaker
Yeah. Their names are not being redacted. They're being fucking victimized by our own government now. Yeah. The clandestine government did it and now the shadow government did it and now the American government is doing it. You know what? is We paid for it.
00:22:28
Speaker
and we're pay And we're still paying for it. And they're talking about us attacking Iran soon. They said that they're kind of waiting on Trump's going ahead. Well, you that might have fucking attacked Mexico?
00:22:39
Speaker
Really? Yes. no ah There was a thing where all flights were grounded in Texas, in El Paso. Like, literally, you couldn't do do a medevac emergency flight. Well, I heard it was a UFO.
00:22:52
Speaker
Well, they what I heard was that they were essentially trying to shoot down cartel drones delivering fentanyl. Yeah. Which is like, but at the same time, I was like, damn, this is like some shady shit, like, to just close off all this airspace. Yeah.
00:23:08
Speaker
Dude, do you want to hear some crazy ass shit? They were talking about um Israel using thermobaric. Have you ever heard of that word? Thermobaric? Something like that?
00:23:19
Speaker
I've heard the word. ah These weapons that are completely illegal that basically superheat the area. So they create like fireballs yeah to superheat the area and it basically evaporates the person.
00:23:35
Speaker
yeah So all these Gazans are missing. That are just gone because they're using these weapons on them and no one's able to find the bodies. And they're kind of hiding It's clothes. Yeah, they said they're just finding like um scalps.
00:23:51
Speaker
And just likes like – even the teeth are being turned to dust from these weapons. Holy shit. The Jews are fucking putting these people in the fucking ovens. It's like what the fuck?
00:24:06
Speaker
It's crazy, man. It's such a dark time, It's fucking crazy. It's a dark time. We're close to, you know... if They say the end of the world's coming, but... ah They, ah you know, I know the Doomsday Clock thing is a bunch of bullshit.
00:24:20
Speaker
they ah But it's they moved it to like 40 seconds to midnight or something. It's the closest it's ever been to fucking midnight. and i mean... And I was just like, well...
00:24:32
Speaker
Can something just actually fucking happen, though? Because, like, the problem is, is, like, all this shit, it's it's right. We're just, like, constantly exposed. Like, oh, yeah, right? Like, um rich people will just get away with anything. Like, there are no laws for rich people. The only way you can actually get rid of rich people is to fucking Luigi them. that yeah That's the only – it's like – is that seriously the only solution? Like, is that – The American people are being told. I think it is the only solution, man.
00:24:59
Speaker
um It's got to be the French Revolution, man. and That's why they all have their fucking bunkers. And it's like, ah so i mean, soon you you know you hear a of people are like, oh, yeah, the nu like the stock market is up and this is up and all these things are up. and it's like, it's not – Good.
00:25:16
Speaker
Yeah. Nothing is better. Businesses aren't surviving. It's like, who is who is getting rich off of this? like why How is the stock market going up? Dude, every time I go to the fucking market, I get like five things and it's $50 to $70.
00:25:29
Speaker
Yes. Every fucking time. I went to the... I'm going broke because of fucking groceries. I went to Stater Brothers today before we came over and I bought the Fosters, the Wild Turkey, ah one of those little shushi plates for Katie, and... ah what else did I get?
00:25:48
Speaker
Oh, I got some water bottles. And it was like $72. I'm like, what the? What? well what What the fuck? Everything's $10. Everything is like $10 now.
00:25:59
Speaker
And i ah you know I went to lunch just the other day and I and i was like, this is like how I know i feel I'm feeling old. But at the same time, it's like, this isn't right. It's like, just a cheeseburger is like $23 or something in l LA. And I'm like, uh, so I guess I just not eating lunch anymore.
00:26:16
Speaker
like well, dude, I went to Jack in the box and got just me and Karen a meal. It was $30. Yeah. yeah What the fuck? $30 for Jack in the box. It's not even that good of food. I know. It's like, you're paying $30 for E. coli. Like, but you know, like we got it. Cause she was up working all night.
00:26:36
Speaker
Um, On school, I was working all night. And so by the time I was like, dude, I'm too fucking tired to come home. Well, fast food. cook at 11 at night.
00:26:46
Speaker
Let me just, because I had just come from Winco. was like, let me let me just pick up something for us to eat. yeah And it was $30. It's like, fuck, man, I can't afford $30, but I don't want to cook because lazy. I'm tired. And honestly, that used to be the way you did things, right? It was like, okay, oh fast food's the purpose. The purpose of fast food was like, look,
00:27:08
Speaker
It's not a great alternative, but it was always there, right? so You could go to Del Taco, you could get two bean and cheese burritos, a french fry, and a drink for like $4. four dollars And now that same exact meal is probably like $14. Yeah, I mean, when I go to Taco, I'm always spending close like fifteen to like $15 to $20. It's fucking Del Taco. It gives me the shits, man. Why am I paying $20 to get the shits for half a day? Yeah, I remember we had a $60...
00:27:37
Speaker
ah $60 bill from Carl's Jr. And that's when I was like, we're never, ever eating Carl's Jr. again. Because they have a play place. So it's like, it's a great way to just go let the kids burn off some energy. We can sit there. ka and I get to eat and talk and hang out while the kids are running around. And it's like, we can't do that anymore. Just can't do it.
00:27:55
Speaker
Well, even when we went to the pumpkin patch, remember? yeah And this is, you know, an example of why the economy is so bad and what we're complaining about. But anecdotal. But when we went to the pumpkin patch, I know you spent a lot of money I know ah we didn't have a lot of money. And I think that day in total cost us like around $250. Yeah.
00:28:17
Speaker
For me and Karen. And that was with you spending money be like, hey, here's some tickets, guys, to like do some of this stuff. I was like, fuck, man. Yeah, i'm like it's a pumpkin patch.
00:28:29
Speaker
It's these cheesy fucking air ride rule like well even air pumps that are filling up these rides. and Even BJ's. I mean, that was like... Oh, I spent over $100. Yeah, i was I think I spent over $100.
00:28:42
Speaker
hundred Did we pay separate or how did that work? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think I was like close to $100. $70? It might have been $70? I know I spent more at i'm spent more than $100 at the pumpkin patch.
00:28:55
Speaker
And I was like, fuck, why am I doing this? so I know I bought one set of the tickets for $60. Yeah. i was like, why don't we just go play Ninja Turtles? You know, shit.
00:29:06
Speaker
ah I swear this episode will get into something filmmaking. Well, said it was going long, but. Yeah. So stay tuned, please. Yes. Well, hold on. With James Van Der Beek and the GoFunding, you know, that's people's money and we have to do our due diligence to- Oh, I personally don't give a shit. To see how we spend it.
00:29:27
Speaker
People are allowed to do whatever the fuck
Influencers vs. Celebrities
00:29:29
Speaker
they want. I couldn't care less. The interesting thing and the reason why I wanted talk about it with you was because the it is such a stark difference between someone that has a name yeah versus just us. These these random nobodies yeah who maybe are like, if you're lucky, your uncle or your older brother will like, hey, here's $50. And you're like, $50?
00:29:53
Speaker
Woo! We're going to Vegas. We'll make $100. Zoe Saldana ain't like, here's $2,500 for the rest of your life month, kids. You know what? Shit, dude. We just want you to watch our movie once. Yeah. For free. We'll fucking pay you to watch it. We'll pay you to watch it. And it's just... It's like how...
00:30:14
Speaker
you know It kind of ties into everything ah for this episode, which is like why it it's so hard to get in. And then once you're in, it's hard to stay.
00:30:25
Speaker
And it's like this' just this constant battle. But the thing is, is it's still so much better than just like working like this 9 to 5 living. And that's why it kind of hurts to see. Because it's like, okay...
00:30:41
Speaker
you can see You see the effects of what having a name and what it means to like have an impact on someone's life. You didn't watch Dawson's Creek. I didn't watch Dawson's Creek. We both are very familiar who James Van Der Beek is, right?
00:30:53
Speaker
ah Varsity Blues. He has cameos in like James Hunt and Bob Strike Back and a Scary Movie. He's in Scary Movie. he? Yeah, when ah he like pops up in the window and he's like, oh, whoops, wrong set or whatever Like during one of the scenes.
00:31:10
Speaker
ah It's probably the sex scene. Yeah, the sex scene. Yeah. And he because he like opens the window and it's like when the two leads are banging and it's like, oh, shit. Sorry. It's like, doesn it get out of here.
00:31:22
Speaker
That's funny. And i stupid yeah, you know, and it's just it's so crazy. It's such a weird world in that regard. ah running I think that also extends to influencer, right? Because that's like the tier under. That's like your B-lister, C-listers now, right? here Your influencers, your YouTubers, your Twitchers. Because i don't I think we might have touched on this in another podcast. But for instance, Iron Lung.
00:31:52
Speaker
We didn't touch on this at all. And I was actually just going to bring that up and and in retrospect. Because we could probably do a whole episode talking about... I guess that would be an interesting thing that we could do an episode on. We should watch Shelby Oaks. Is that the Stuckman one? Have you seen it?
00:32:07
Speaker
I haven't seen it Oh, okay. ah I have no interest in watching it. Well, wouldn't it be like Shelby? I need to watch Train Dream still. You know, I saw that. I finished it. Because I was only planning to watch like an hour and get back to chores. Yeah.
00:32:20
Speaker
was like, nah, it's kind of fun. Drinking my coffee and enjoying the movie. And it was not what I expected. Because I thought it was going to be those... Slow burn movies where nothing happens throughout the entire movie, which kind of is in a sense.
00:32:36
Speaker
But you know, you know therere there are these monotone mute movies where like the lead doesn't say anything. it's just him looking off into the distance like, wow, so deep.
00:32:49
Speaker
So deep, this person. And you know, just those boring kind of slow movies that always get nominated for an Oscar. It was not that. And I was surprised. Yeah. And it was actually really ah good. um You know, I'm a big fanboy of, a what the fuck's that guy's name? Joel Edgerton. Joel Edgerton.
00:33:10
Speaker
was thinking someone else. But I'm a big fanboy of Joel Edgerton. He played a very interesting character. Because I think he could have gone the way of like the non-speaking protagonist who's
00:33:25
Speaker
Just quiet, right? It's not necessarily that they're too deep or anything. They just don't say anything. We're supposed to be wowed by that. But he played a really good character. um That Felicity Jones, man. I don't know. Maybe she's got that Midas touch because everything she's in is like a best picture.
00:33:42
Speaker
Right? The Brutalist last year? Yeah, yeah i was very ah pleasantly surprised with Train Dream. But... So would it be like Shelby Oaks versus Iron Lung? Or not even necessarily Not verse, but compare, contrast. It's more the the idea of this person that builds an audience. Yeah.
00:34:08
Speaker
Right. This is kind of what we have thought about through the podcast and Dickhead. But we aren't Markiplier or Chris Stuckman. Yeah, not at all. We're not even audience. Yeah.
00:34:19
Speaker
point oh one percent of their audience But it's the idea of these people that they've pre-built their audiences um through their movie review. I don't really know what Markiplier does. I've seen him once because I think I was looking up streamers for video games. And I think he did video games. And now – I think he does video games. He's also like commentator. This is where I feel like I'm an old man because I'm like, who's Markiplier? Do you know who Asmongold is?
00:34:46
Speaker
He's the racist WoW player. Yeah, who's real gross. Yeah, well, now he does like commentary, and he's kind of transitioning away from, i guess, streaming games? Yeah.
00:34:58
Speaker
i remember i watch i don't really know I remember I watched Asmongold once, and I was like, okay, this guy, his biggest dream is that his mom would have sex with him. Yeah. And then his mom died and now he was really upset because he'll never get to have sex with his mom. And that was kind of like my whole grasp of Asmongold. And when I saw Mark Plyer, mine was, ah okay, this guy wishes he was Robin Williams.
00:35:22
Speaker
really? That's just what I got. i think because of the way he he changes his voice and stuff. I have – I don't think I've ever actually heard him speak. i i I can recognize him because he's just – he's very internet famous. Well, I found – I didn't even know who he was. I found him in researching because, you know, like – Not in show notes. but then You didn't read them. Yeah, exactly. but But that's worst thing about, like, social medias is that it just keeps you so so much in an echo chamber that, like, on YouTube, you can be so oblivious to –
00:35:56
Speaker
Huge YouTube people like, I never knew who Mr. Beast was until he went on Joe Rogan. Yeah. And that's like the biggest YouTuber. I've never seen a you Mr. Beast video. me either. it' never even popped up on my feed or anything. But Luke has seen them and he knows who Mr. Beast is. But I didn't.
00:36:11
Speaker
Yeah. It's like, why don't I know? like suggest me a video. Maybe I might want to know. And that's how crazy, that's why it kind of comes back into the James Van Der Beek thing a little bit, which is like on topic.
00:36:23
Speaker
It's the reach. Like, these people are actually famous. Like, people know who these fucker pet these fucking people are but and the thing is but they're not no one has like a global reach anymore very few people like Taylor Swift um Lady Gaga Maybe. Bad Bunny.
00:36:46
Speaker
Bad Bunny now. Now, but I had never heard a Bad Bunny song before. Even when I was hearing the song, I don't know if I've ever heard a Bad Bunny song. What the fuck is he saying? That was the thing. I was like, my thing was, don't care that he's singing in Spanish. I just was hoping the songs were good, but they weren't.
AI's Impact on Culture & Filmmaking
00:37:05
Speaker
I was like, oh, it's Mumblecore, the music. Mumblecore rap. Yeah, I'm like, oh, fuck, I hate this. Did Noah Baumbach write the fucking halftime show? Well, shit, that's pretty cool.
00:37:18
Speaker
But I was like, God, dude, you know what? i Because I was like, you know what my favorite halftime show is? The Michael Jackson one, dude. it's like the Well, he started it all, man. He's fucking king, dude. And it's like, i i like is like but he was with Epstein. Shit, goddammit. According to Macaulay Culkin, Michael Jackson was saving kids from the Epstein Islands for himself.
00:37:38
Speaker
ah He just wanted to play with them, but they wanted to play with them. Yeah. He was like, I want to show you my giraffe. It's got a long neck. That's the line before time, kids. um But yeah, I think that honestly, I thought it was, I was kind of fascinated by this for a little bit to go back to the, the iron lung all over the place. because Iron lung made like a shit ton of money and Shelby Oaks did not.
00:38:06
Speaker
Well, but also Iron Lung made a shit ton of money in relation to its budget. But not only that, Iron Lung just— It made— Because I think Shelby Oaks did pretty decent. I don't i don't know, honestly. This would be like if we were going to an episode on it, I would find could actually research it. I think it was it would be considered a success.
00:38:25
Speaker
It just had a massive drop off it and wasn't received well. Because the whole thing was like— there's there's like controversies that felt like studios don't want iron lung to succeed. That's why they were trying to pull it out. And the worst thing is me trying to root for iron lung. Cause it's like, ill.
00:38:40
Speaker
Yeah. I don't want to root for that guy, but we should in a sense. And that's kind of the point that was kind of coming back to. We shouldn't. Cause I mean, he's YouTube. He's huge in YouTube land. We're not huge in any land. We try to be huge on YouTube land. We put up some episodes. No one watched them.
00:38:59
Speaker
Um, You know, we we were really committed to, what was that other one that we used? SoundCloud? it was called? Yeah, SoundCloud. I like SoundCloud.
00:39:10
Speaker
Well, actually, we were we got a lot of views, but I think they were all bots. I'm fine with that. It doesn't matter. There's no real or there are no real anymore. That's true, and there's not necessarily not even a real. That's subjective. Because we were pretty big on SoundCloud.
00:39:23
Speaker
We'd get thousands of listens. Well, we're getting we I saw we got a couple hundred. Psst. On one video or one episode. it Totality. No, saw i know i saw it on Zencaster. It shows you your total plays. And I think we're at like 40,000 or something. And I was like, total plays?
00:39:40
Speaker
Hey, that's a lot. I'm sorry. Like 212 episodes. Averages out to like nine episodes of nine views listens or something. I was like, fuck, dude. You know, but we need to get some rich people. We need to find some rich people. but but my point is like even being on YouTube and to be successful there, like that's a massive um platform with tons of reach. I mean, you know, YouTube channels are now getting on senators.
00:40:10
Speaker
and Podcasts are getting on celebrities. Like, this internet space. Everyone has. And platforms are really starting to be this big thing. yeah So, you know, Mark Plyer is, he's not really one of us.
00:40:23
Speaker
No, he is not. He is not one of us. you know is He's like, this guy ain't one of us. This guy's still like... Steven Arrapez is one of us. Joe, whatever, Greening, Green, Joe Greenling, Greening, Green. He's one of us.
00:40:35
Speaker
ah Smart player's closer to, you know, Luc Besson than he is to us. Oh, I make that joke later. Did you read the notes? No, I didn't. Damn. We're in sync, buddy. It's a new It's a new year. you know, 2026, bad what should,
00:40:56
Speaker
should say that with as much emphasis on the War is still a possibility. It's still the Beagle card. See, that the finally, the wrapping and releasing of Dickhead. Yeah.
00:41:11
Speaker
Wow. Right? That should be... twice twice a We win better. That's kind of special because 2026 finished. 2016 started. Even though I think technically it might have been 2015. No, it was 2016. No, we started in 2015, but we shot in 2016. We wrapped principal in 2016.
00:41:29
Speaker
Yeah. So we've been in post 10 years. We just got to have that 10 year thing. Okay. We can't be nine years. We can't be 11 years. We be that solid 10. So we got to finish this year. But right. And it's like, man, you know, we're not Markiplier, but I do think there is, it's, it's an interesting thing because there are so many routes to becoming a filmmaker. And that's kind of what the main discussion is about later.
00:41:54
Speaker
um about the ah the efficacy of short films and like if you should even bother and maybe you should focus your skills onto doing something else. And that's the one of the things I wanted to bring up because these guys made this spec trailer for Takis And we've worked on a spec trailer ah for Verizon. Was it Verizon?
00:42:15
Speaker
It was an internet. So it was like Verizon. Or Spectrum or some something like that. We worked on that with your cousin, Sean. And I was kind of thinking like, maybe this is where filmmakers should kind of,
00:42:27
Speaker
tend their our shift their focus into using shorts as a means of viability to make some actual money to become a filmmaker.
00:42:40
Speaker
Is that what they always do? Yes, but we'll get into that later. Okay. So, two friends made a spec trailer for Takis. The blue Takis are super hot. um I don't think they're that spicy, honestly. I'm i'm also not a big Takis fan. They're kind of too crunchy.
00:42:55
Speaker
ah So... It's just just this it's just cute little short. it's like It takes place in medieval times in a forest where time travelers come back in time and hand a talkies over to villagers of that time. And the dude's head melts. like ah And it's ah it's a practical head melt, which is nice. that was that practical? It was a practical head melt. They used the same style that they did for ah Raiders of Lost Ark. Indiana Jones, yeah.
00:43:24
Speaker
And I saw that and I was like, oh, this is so this is cute. But not only is it cute. That's interesting because I remember i just saw and the guy's face melts off. And it's like, whoa. and it that's for I was like, its this serves a purpose outside of just the fun of like making a short. because ah And the thing was, it was i was and I got fascinated about this idea of the efficacy of short films. which just like This whole episode is about short films. We're going to talk about that.
00:43:52
Speaker
later Well, that's interesting because on Reddit I saw a post that was a guy did a short film and it was like and nothing came of it. Is this the one where the guy was like, I went into major debt?
00:44:02
Speaker
Yeah. That was what sparked at at this episode. Okay. Because i was go to I saved it to because I'll save posts and be like, oh, maybe this can be for the podcast even though I'd never add to it. Yeah, it's okay. But I do save stuff to potentially put in there.
00:44:17
Speaker
ah So yeah, I saw that. See? I researched without even knowing it. That's how odd I was. And so I was watching this. And issue like I said, it's I don't think it's like mind-blowing, but it's it's nice.
00:44:33
Speaker
No, it's good. It's well-made. Very well-made. But the thing is that it has the potential to be so much more if Taki gives these these kids – don't know if they're kids. They've that. They've been doing it for a long time. But years of money. Yeah.
00:44:46
Speaker
And – essentially the whole episode we're going to talk about is what filmmakers of our level should actually be doing or what we think or what we think about short films in general. Because, you know, we recently judged...
00:45:04
Speaker
Temecula Valley Film Festival. Great festival. recommend everyone check it out. You guys should all come out to Temecula. There's a filmmaking party. That edible was hitting so hard. You were looking at me. Temecula Valley. was like, I remember. I was there, wasn't I? I was just impressed. I said it clearly. Advocated it nicely. Okay.
00:45:26
Speaker
okay Film festival.
00:45:31
Speaker
Uh...
00:45:34
Speaker
Where was I? um but rare Right, right, right, right, right. So... so The thing I wanted to talk to you about. So we had this experience of making a a trailer on spec. And what a trailer on spec means for people that aren't aware, because this was a criticism I think Karen brought up, is that we don't we just say industry terms and then people have no idea we're talking about. Well, we also are. Sometimes they're exactly sure what we're talking about. But essentially, my understanding ah is when you make a trailer on spec, it's the idea that you're going to make it to potentially sell it to that company. It's like a script on spec. You haven't been necessarily paid to write it.
00:46:12
Speaker
You're hoping that someone will pick it up and buy it. ah So you make this trailer on spec and you and you pick a product. A lot of people on on the comments were saying like you should pick smaller local or companies to kind of do these trailers for.
00:46:25
Speaker
But the cool thing is, is's like the commercial felt like a short film. Yeah. and i was like And that's what kind of like kind of was the impetus and the spark of this idea and the the guy's post about, hey, I went bankrupt trying to make a short film. that It got in a couple of festivals, but it literally went nowhere.
00:46:45
Speaker
and i wanted to And that kind of got me thinking and... Yeah, that's what this episode is about. I won't go into i won't go too crazy because we're going to touch on all this literally we're only on page two of three.
00:46:56
Speaker
We're on page one of three. i was going to say, I just opened it up and I saw a crystal ball. with tro're gonna get We're going to talk about that a little bit. and then And then the last thing for the news before we wrap into the main discussion ah is which hopefully, well, this might go long.
00:47:14
Speaker
A Chinese company called ByteDance released its newest AI model. Yeah. And then someone made a video of Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt fighting over Epstein.
00:47:26
Speaker
And Brad Pitt's in defense of Epstein. Yeah. As a podcast, we've talked and we've tracked and talked about the introduction of AI for years. Literally, if you go back...
00:47:40
Speaker
ah to our earlier episodes. AI Jesus. we're taught we Yeah, we are we coined, i don't know if we coined the term, but we sure, we coined the term AI Jesus. We talked about the the introduction of AI for years on this podcast. It's crazy to witness the progression.
00:47:54
Speaker
I think it's always safe to say... Whoa, too many notes. It's always safe to say it's not there yet.
00:48:05
Speaker
Because people hate it so much that once it is there, we'll still deny it. So it's always safe to say that it's not there. But... It's getting so much better than it has any right to be, and it's kind of scary. ah So you watched the video, right?
00:48:22
Speaker
ah Yeah. And ah to give a quick rundown of the video, it's maybe a minute long, maybe 40 seconds. No, it's 15 seconds. Is it it really that short? Yeah. if Okay, maybe. I was hoping it'd be a little longer. i was getting into it. So it's... it's I wouldn't say it's like a well-choreographed fight scene, but it is a fight scene between Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise, and it looks...
00:48:44
Speaker
pretty good yeah um Yeah. not Honestly, ah the faces, Brad Pitt was a little off, but the faces looked like it was them.
00:48:56
Speaker
And it's not only that the fact that they're fighting and it's their faces, but they have a conversation, a dialogue about Epstein being killed in prison. Yeah. Yeah. And I can't remember exactly what they're saying. like Tom Cruise is like, he had to go. like Yeah. ah Brad Pitt's like, Epstein was a good man.
00:49:17
Speaker
and then Tom Cruise is like, he had to go because of the other government. or so He says something because he's the villain, right? So that I think this brings up a lot of implication in the fact that One, you can kind of make anyone say anything in a convincing enough way that – because we've talked about – when we first – Brad Pitt sounded like brad Brad Pitt. Tom Cruise didn't. No, you're right.
00:49:44
Speaker
And I agree 100%. But it was – But it's getting to the point where it's like – Yes. It sounds pretty damn good. I mean, we know it's fake because we know it's fake.
00:49:55
Speaker
But i too we also called this. We called that ah you will have models where you're like, I want to make seven. But instead of Brad Pitt as the as the guy, it's going to be Laurence Olivier yeah or whatever.
00:50:08
Speaker
And that's going to be a thing. We're going to be able to watch Star Wars with and like instead of – Hayden Christensen as that. James Franco. It will be James Franco. And you could literally make that happen.
00:50:24
Speaker
Yeah. Although James Franco probably fucks kids, so we'll never see it. Well, he is an enemy. What did you do to those kids, Andy?
00:50:34
Speaker
My lightsaber. You're tearing me a apart! um But, dude, like, fucking shit. Like, did you watch that video? It was good. The fact that nothing is real in that video is absolutely absurd. And it it's not perfect.
00:50:53
Speaker
No. But it doesn't need to be perfect. No. You know, I'll say this, and and this might— oh Let me get your opinion, because— As I've been learning about AI more and more, like when we first initially talked about it and discussed the possibilities of what it could be, like AI Jesus, I think I was a lot more afraid.
00:51:18
Speaker
I was very scared of what it could be because of the potential. And I think AI still possesses that. But now that I've learned more about it, I kind of feel that I'm less worried about it.
00:51:34
Speaker
For instance, all the data centers, I think we touched about this on a podcast before, but where the technology is not necessarily there to facilitate the demands of AI, like its um needs for energy, like they're making these data centers and apparently they don't take a lot of people.
00:51:54
Speaker
They consume tons of resources and a lot of communities are actually coming out against them. So a lot of the data centers are um not going through. a lot. I didn't say all of them.
00:52:07
Speaker
Well, I'm sure there's a lot of mid to small tier data centers that are getting pushed through, but like... That's not the thing. But while Zuckerberg's Manhattan size one isn't. Oh, you mean the one that's the size of the island of Manhattan? Yeah, Manhattan, yeah. Yeah, no shit that didn't get pushed through. But that's a good, like, so, but they're saying... That would be trillions of dollars to build that thing. Trillions.
00:52:30
Speaker
Well, they're saying that they can't... They can't. But see, that's what I'm saying. It's like, the money's not there to facilitate the demands of AI. The resources aren't there. You can't make a fucking data center the size of Manhattan to facilitate this Yet. Yet.
00:52:45
Speaker
Well, because the technology is not there, right? Correct. it Like the technology has to be better. So this is more cost efficient. And we're not there yet. AI is the most interesting bubble because yeah most bubbles are made out of like whatever. What is it? What is the material like in bubble mounds? Like what is that? Soap. Is that just soap?
00:53:06
Speaker
Yes. Well, no, because it doesn't like burn my eyes. Is it like it's like fancy soap? It's the soap that used to clean off like the ducts that get caught in oil spills. The dot-com bubble, ah the housing bubble, all these things were made out of that dipping soap.
00:53:20
Speaker
Yeah. And youre just like it was like, you blow it, and it's like, oh, shit. It's pretty well it floated, right? Yeah. Oh, wow. you know There's like shine of the fucking rainbow of ah the ink you know incandescence or whatever. AI bubble is kind of like this. It's like a condom bubble.
00:53:36
Speaker
Where like, you know, like a condom thing. You get condom bubbles, bro? No. damn, buddy. No, I Shit, no wonder why you got two You know how they're like, oh, you can use condoms for like, as like a water bottle. Like this shit. Oh, yeah. It's like ah the material that it's made. The bubble is thicker because it has more potential.
00:53:54
Speaker
Because if AI follows through, it's the end of times. Well, if... and And what I mean is I don't necessarily... I'm not saying it's the end of times like Terminator, Skynet, blowing up the world. I mean, it's in the end of time where it's like if AI keeps progressing at the rate that it is, humans become...
00:54:14
Speaker
ah we just don't you just don't need people for a lot of these things. It will literally replace people. yeah A lot of people, oh, and you know that's um one of the things. At work, they always fucking say this.
00:54:25
Speaker
Oh, we're going to implement all these AI things, but it will not replace
AI's Role in Creativity & Ethics
00:54:28
Speaker
people. Don't worry, it's not going replace people. And I'm like, it is! It is, because the next thing they say is we need you to do more with less people, because is going to fill the gaps. It's like, you can't, don't plan for it. Don't plan for that.
00:54:42
Speaker
But if AI does follow this the the trends and it does get better and it does get smarter, because it is getting better. Yeah. I don't give a shit what anyone says. Because people fucking love to hate ai And I kind of love that. Oh, I love to hate AI too. I mean, i get it. it's It's a good thing. because Also, I think it's a good thing to hate on. As a human.
00:55:02
Speaker
Yeah. I actually love it because I see it as a poor man's – it's like a – it was like the It's like the printing press to me. AI is like the printing press because so many things have been kept like out of the hands of the peasants.
00:55:21
Speaker
And we're finally kind of getting that those tools in our hands yeah but through AI. But see, then the AI. And that's always what's scary because you know what? People are probably like, well, I don't want to learn to read. Reading is bad. Well, not just that, but AI is going to give the peasants slave labor.
00:55:40
Speaker
Yes, and I want slaves. The printing press didn't give that to anyone, right? I don't know about you, buddy, but couldn't we use some slaves to make dickhead? I mean, what do you have me i know't I'm not saying this in ah in any kind of like American history, racial term of slavery. I'm just meaning the general term of slavery, like having unpaid labor.
00:56:00
Speaker
Just think of the advantages that slavery offers because you know there's cultures where being a slave really isn't that bad. I mean, look at the Romans. I think the Chinese actually have a good standing on slavery. Who are really hurting with AI slaves?
00:56:15
Speaker
They're just robots after all, man. They're not human. Thanks for keeping me honest, buddy. I appreciate it But honestly, seriously, like we need help making films. Oh, of course. And we cannot do it all on our own. And people that say it's taking jobs away from people. It is. It is. But it's not taking jobs away from people from stuff that we're doing. well Because we can't pay those people. her Perfect example of that is ADR, right?
00:56:42
Speaker
There's stuff we should ADR. We can't because we can't pay them. Not only can we pay them, they're like 100 years older now and they just literally won't sound the same. Okay, yeah. True. But, you know, like if we could use AI to ADR their voice, it'd be like having Michael Jackson sing ABC 123 again. ABC.
00:57:02
Speaker
I'm like, oh my god, his voice is deeper. ah But, right? ah Like, literally the thing is,
00:57:11
Speaker
As a filmmaker, it's incredibly advantageous
00:57:17
Speaker
to have tools that we can use to make our stuff as professional as possible. Yeah. And that is what is fascinating about AI.
00:57:31
Speaker
It's in this aspect of the fact that it's giving plebs... Tools to do things that normally you'd never be able to do. Okay, you know, let's not focus on that because you always focus on the positives of AI and that's granted there are going to be positives. Yeah.
00:57:51
Speaker
I think the worst thing about AI is that the negatives currently outweigh the positives. Absolutely, but not for us. not And I'm narcissists and I only care about you and me. But not for us within our very a narrow...
00:58:09
Speaker
lens for that because I mean let me face let me phrase it like this real quick real quick and then you can say what you have to say I'll be real quick and I'll be quiet course podcast baby we talk all we want it doesn't matter how good AI gets for us as filmmakers it only helps us because we literally don't have the resources to do otherwise like the better the AI tools are the better our films will be yeah but again that's that small vacuum right It is a small vacuum. Also, I don't know, man. Like, the reception to AI has been not as welcomed as I thought it would be.
00:58:48
Speaker
Of course it's not. And this amongst, like, the regular people. Yes, it's because the regular people have the aspirations of doing these jobs that AI is going to be replacing. No, I mean, it seems like everyone I talk to Everyone who thinks they're an artist.
00:59:02
Speaker
What? No, in general, like even my mom isn't necessarily for ai and what it's doing. My sister definitely isn't, even though she she does she started to paint.
00:59:14
Speaker
Like a lot of people i I know and talk to just don't seem to be in favor of AI. So I think you have to be a little careful right now. Like it we're going to be using AI to an extent, right? Because we're going to be using um the warp stabilizer.
00:59:30
Speaker
Yeah, a bottle or i think that's but I AI in this sense. I'm being as transparent as possible. I mean, we're not using AI to the extent of it replacing anyone in any way. It's just literally to a smooth out warp stabilizer. And wow if we're doing some audio stuff, it'll clean up some of the audio to where you're not hearing, like, background noise over the dialogue per se. I mean, the audio is pretty much done, but at the same time. I'm just saying, for example, you know.
00:59:58
Speaker
Yeah. um The thing I want to say, i guess in defense of, of not in defense of AI, but in opposition of AI is, I wish I didn't need to use it.
01:00:11
Speaker
Well, also, I think we're using AI in the way that you're um describing it as a good thing, as a tool. Because also, we haven't used AI where it replaces anything. I would love to pay people instead. Let me ask you this. would love someone to pay us to make dickhead. Let me ask you this, because this seemed to bother you, I think, more than it bothered me, interestingly enough.
01:00:37
Speaker
Was when my cousin showed us an AI... um um mock-up trailer or proof of concept trailer for a feature film.
01:00:48
Speaker
And rather than invest in tons of money, ah he just typed it all into a prompt and worked on it for ah at least 24 hours. Yeah. To get it in the ballpark of what he would want.
01:01:01
Speaker
I guess of just telling it the prompt over and over to redo until he got a good shot. Yeah. And also, you know, it looked really good to use as possibly like a storyboard.
01:01:14
Speaker
Like that seemed really nice as a storyboard type tool. But when he showed us the trailer, i don't know. You just didn't seem, you seemed apprehensive. there There seemed to be ah a caution maybe towards it to some degree that I sensed from your our apprehension, and a negativeness. I don't know.
01:01:36
Speaker
I think it was, and because Sean was like, oh, the audio is bad, the audio is bad. I was like, no, it's just sloppy. ah Like, as a narrative, it's sloppy. Like, it's um
01:01:49
Speaker
it's not, like, Sean did a great job of having as much control as he did, but he didn't have complete control, and you could tell. It's still a thing doing its thing, right? Like, its own thing? Because the whole thing is, it was like,
01:02:04
Speaker
It's these short segments of shots that he tried to connect together into an overall narrative. But the problem is- you're not directing it, right? You can't. It's impossible to direct it. and Well, you try as best as you can. You sample. Yeah.
01:02:17
Speaker
But that's not directing it, right? But it's- I mean, I know he would have delivered something different if he had 100% control. and Because my thing was, it's like- it Style and stuff matters. Yeah.
01:02:33
Speaker
And like having it, it it didn't match. Shots didn't necessarily match. It was like, it was like watching, like, it's like the first five minutes were done by Dr. Seuss. And then the next five minutes were done by like Tarkovsky. And then the next five minutes were done by Bava. And then the next five minutes were done by Seuss again. The Russo brothers or something. And then you're like, and it's like, okay, i can I can get what you're trying to say, but the product itself is a mess.
01:03:03
Speaker
Yeah. And I feel like that it can be, i don't know, man. Every time we talk about stuff, it always, I think, goes back to the same thing where it's like film is a discipline.
01:03:22
Speaker
And that discipline is fucking tedious, hard work. And there aren't really that many shortcuts. Yeah. Because the shortcuts aren show a lot of the time.
01:03:36
Speaker
And I think a lot of people just are like, they want to do they want to do it, get it done the easiest way they can. It's like this instant gratification paralysis or something that everyone has where it's like, to go back to the short film. like My short film didn't go anywhere. It played these fests. It got some awards, whatever. But I'm not a filmmaker now. ah No one's coming at me for jobs.
01:04:00
Speaker
And... It's like, dude, that's you made ah a short. Good for you. Now go make a feature and make another feature and make another one that it's actually good. because there is a pete you know And I fucking hate these posts. And I've kind of wanted to get one of these guys on. the ones there's like i don't want to I wish I had a ah clever or witty name for them. But it's the YouTubers that are like, I made 45 feature films in a year and...
01:04:29
Speaker
You want to watch them and you watch them and you're like, this is fucking unwatchable. It's so bad. Are you blind, retarded or stupid? Like I can say that word. i told you I'm fucking tired. I don't care what anybody says. I'm loud. Okay. I get the R card for being R worded.
01:04:48
Speaker
Um,
01:04:51
Speaker
But it's like, dude, they're, you know, because people will say like, oh, you you know, you worked on a ah film for 10 years. Like you fucking suck. it Wait, has anyone said that to us? Many people have said it to me.
01:05:08
Speaker
oh it's like It's like tough to talk about. It's like I pour my whole, we pour our lives and our fucking finances and our hopes and dreams and they a fucking into a fucking dickhead. Into a movie called Dickhead. And you know, we it and it really is like a perfect encapsulation of like what we are, who we are. And like if anything happens, it's because Dickhead got us there.
01:05:31
Speaker
Because we allowed our, we took our time to actually make this thing a real thing. And I don't want to be the film. It is not a badge of honor to to say you made a feature film in a day.
01:05:45
Speaker
Unless it's like mind-blowingly good. Because I think you can use it as a marketing tool. But at the end of the day. You a really good point about it. um In one of our previous podcasts, we talk about it. And, you know, you ultimately just said, doesn't matter how long it took you as long as like the...
01:06:05
Speaker
qualities there are the stories there you said something more poignant than what I'm saying but it was it was very well put you know it's not about the time right it's just no one cares the end result yeah no one knows the story of how hard it was to make the film all they have is the film yeah And I think most a lot of filmmakers just don't have that in their head. And it really bothers me when I see it. And I really wanted to bring on one of these guys. And maybe we should. Maybe I should try and just talk to them. And we could maybe be a little more hostile. It could be a kind of a fun podcast. We're going to be confrontational. Yeah. Where it's like, no, your shit actually does suck.
01:06:42
Speaker
Because I watched one. I didn't watch the whole feature. I couldn't get through it. I literally couldn't get through it. Really? I've never seen... Because I've only seen like Shelby Oaks, but those guys weren't like... No, I'm not talking about Shelby Oaks. Filmmakers.
01:06:54
Speaker
I've never seen... I'm talking about these guys that they like therere there's no and color grade on the film. there They didn't even like try try to put a lot on there like like i would have done or something. like where I would have limped along a little bit.
01:07:13
Speaker
It's like, dude, the audio is like, well, this is what is what we captured. And it's bad because we shot it so fast. And it's like, that's not a fucking excuse. yeah I'm sorry. It's not an excuse. That's how we're going to get into it.
01:07:24
Speaker
It's not an excuse. It's not an excuse to be bad. Period.
Filmmaking Integrity & Personal Belief
01:07:29
Speaker
you're such But see, that's the interesting person. like you know You're talking about this YouTube person who has made all these films and then you see them and they're shit.
01:07:42
Speaker
But then- Because everyone- Because, you you know, if feel I don't know what the word grifter means necessarily, but it feels like that's a grift, right? But- I don't know if it's a grift. But what but what if- It's like Marty Supreme. but Is he actually conning himself? But if they believe in- That's what I'm saying. If they believe in it, isn't there something to be- I don't know.
01:08:03
Speaker
Oh, man. Isn't there something admirable in that? No, man. If they see this, it's like, no, dude, this is great. I did a really good feel, man. No, because, we said it in our movie. It's really a line of dialogue in Dickhead. Shit is shit is shit. like And I don't care how many times you say it.
01:08:24
Speaker
Shit is shit. yeah you No one wants to fucking sit through garbage. Phil, I'm not saying that there's not something that you could gain from it, from watching it. You could learn what not to do, for sure.
01:08:37
Speaker
But not only that, it's just like, You aren't respecting the fucking art form. Yeah. Like, it is fucking hard. You don't get to just fucking shoot a movie in 38 minutes and call it a feature film and say, here you go. No, guess what?
01:08:53
Speaker
Sound processing, film development, ah the fucking edit, everything. All these things actually matter. There's a discipline to this. yeah You know what? People say AI is replacing jobs. No, fucking shitty filmmakers and are fucking replacing jobs because they are du trying to do it themselves.
01:09:10
Speaker
They have no right. Well, is that us, though? No, we're fucking hiring people. That's why it took 10 years. Yeah. If we did ourselves, think it would have been released 10 years ago. we would have been like, yeah, that was a thing we did. And guess what? Yeah.
01:09:24
Speaker
and We probably would you know it's like we would have seen each other once a year and got high and played magic. And that would have been it. Well, you know, it's interesting because... And now we're fucking tied to each other like brothers in chains. Well, how do you feel about AI then? Because it's only making movies easier to make for filmmakers, right? like That's why I'm saying I'm positive about it. because it But then it just sounded like you were very against it because no they're just going to type it into a prompt, make this movie.
01:09:52
Speaker
what I'm saying is maybe these people have a nugget of a good Like you're taking away the discipline. You are. And that's going to make a lot of bad films. But then you but i'm I'm so narcissistic to believe that with but you and I with that power would make something great. But then there's that. Do you understand, buddy? We're we're better than these fucks. I don't. But see, there's where that delusion is.
01:10:14
Speaker
I know. And I'm scared of the delusion. You can't say we you can't claim that until there's success. see That's the fuck. You know, I i all talk. right now I'm undiagnosed bipolar for sure.
01:10:30
Speaker
There's no doubt about it um It's going to stay undiagnosed. It's like, are you thinking I'm getting out with this shit? He's going to be like, i why are you getting 72-hour cycle? He's like, this is my easiest case. Bye, Paul.
01:10:50
Speaker
You didn't even have to finish writing your name and date of birth. Lobotomy. It's going to be like that episode of The Simpsons where he has he fails his psych test because he lets Bart fill it out. But the whole reason he has to take it is because he wore a pink shirt to work.
01:11:05
Speaker
So it's like everyone wears a white shirt to work, but Bart threw his hat in the washer with his white. And it got changed, right? Yeah, they're all pink. That's the Michael Jackson episode, which you can't really watch anymore. because Yeah, it got removed. Yeah, but unless you are on my Plex.
01:11:19
Speaker
But, dude, AI, that's the the hope and dream is... So there are... There's the... That's interesting because you sound like you're at a ah dichotomy.
01:11:30
Speaker
Is it? No. Yeah. Dichotomy. Yeah. Opposing views. Yeah. Within your own lens. I am. Because there's the two points that I'm saying about this. Here is. Yeah.
01:11:42
Speaker
one yeah There is a chance. Dickhead goes nowhere. And we just struggle along trying to make films because it's our passion. It's what we love to do. That's the most likely answer. Yes. This is the probable answer. Yeah.
01:11:59
Speaker
And that we make... ah a short film a, maybe we somehow scrounge together a feature film at once every 10 years. And then we're 15. We die. One more. We're done. Yeah. I can't take any more stress. This is the likely, this is the likeliest outcome I mean, like, just being real. just I mean, like, this is what this episode is about, is being fucking real. they're smarter people than us, because, like, we hung out with Jared and Clark not that long ago, and i was like, man, these people are way more educated than me. They're like, oh, well you know, you did wait, did you guys, like, freelance to other countries to get tax breaks? And I'm like,
01:12:38
Speaker
Ricks? Ricks? They were using some big words over there, and i was like, shit. yeah You're up. ah But in all honesty, right, it's like that that is the moat that is a very plausible outcome.
01:12:54
Speaker
Yes. This is the expected outcome for most filmmakers. Their first feature film is not going to do anything. You hope on a prayer, but really, yeah you're hoping on a prayer. and you know, we're we're striking all the luck, right? Like, all the bad luck, everything. ah It's like we're just trying to – we're shooting it off so that dickhead is like the one windfall. I think the only way I've ever – and this is us going off a tad – but the only way I've ever managed to handle that idea are that truth
01:13:29
Speaker
is just trying to make the best film – that we can within the scope that we can. Absolutely. And then there's pride in that, right? Yes. It'll be like, yes, this is a shit film that got us nowhere, that that was you know our own arrogance, vanity, hubris, all compacted that narcissism, right?
01:13:50
Speaker
To think we could do something of this magnitude. And involve others. That's where the magic comes in, right? Because there's people like, hey, can I get my, what do they call it when they it for the reel? Oh, yeah. Whatever those shots are. Yeah. Can I get shots for the reel? Yeah. Like, can I get this, you know? So it can be useful for me and be something to build my career. Like, nah, it ain't going to go out. Sorry, Chris. I love you, baby. I love you, Chris. This shit ain't there, man, bro. It's not going to happen. Chris, hope one day.
01:14:23
Speaker
I hope one day, Chris, Chris LaMonda, I hope one day you and can sit in a room and watch the finished canon. You can look at me and say thank you. Because they we fucking worked so hard to just try and make something good for you guys. Because it but it's been a rough road, man. But there was there was ah a promise to meet that we didn't, which is to get them that footage to use.
01:14:48
Speaker
Yeah. And create a film that could hopefully... And then we saw the footage. And then we saw the footage, yeah. I mean, we we came out of it out of pure innocence and concern for them. Yeah.
01:15:03
Speaker
But and quite honestly, no, like, they could not use that green triangle footage. But, yeah, no, they couldn't. They couldn't use the footage. Well, they couldn't use the footage to any degree of what we should what we had at the time they wanted it to any degree. it was I mean, this shit was as rough as it gets. It would be – they'd be very mad at us.
01:15:25
Speaker
It's like, we're so... But the thing is... So we chose the better alternative, which is, hey, I know it's 10 years late. You know what, though, buddy? Other than, like, maybe Max...
01:15:38
Speaker
Thickhead is still the best thing these fuckers have ever been in. Well, you know. i know. not They're not fuckers. I'm drunk. I'm just saying. you know I'm just talking shit. Give me a fucking break. God damn. ain't Tarantino. I ain't calling fucking Paul Walker a piece of shit. I don't know. Not Paul Walker. was it What am I getting at?
01:15:54
Speaker
What are we talking about? That we owed them their real footage but wasn't usable. yeah we owed them that. But why? What is that? The whole idea was like, I was like, well one day we hope that we can actually sell them a product they're proud of.
01:16:08
Speaker
Yeah, and that that's what we're aiming for. and it is a film of magnitude, right? Because people were expecting a certain kind of ah payment regardless, right?
01:16:20
Speaker
like Like they say, hey, this will be good for your reel, right? That meme. And that was the idea like, hey, this will be good for your reel. But we didn't give that to them in the hopes that we're creating something that will be worthy of people's time, the audience's time.
01:16:38
Speaker
And so there's a conflict there too, right? Like, do you bend the knee or do you stand upright and not until the artwork's ready? Like, that's a crossroad you can face.
01:16:52
Speaker
We escaped it. No one no one thinks this movie is coming out. Yeah, that's true. We took so long. Everyone just forgot it existed. I hope they could forget it existed. Look, I i don't know about you.
01:17:04
Speaker
ive I know you do. I know you do. I daydream every day that we write the post. I know it's been a long time and you guys haven't heard from us. But Dickhead's a fantastic fest and LA is premiering and blah, blah, blah. Like we made it. The film actually made it. We went somewhere.
01:17:24
Speaker
daydream about it every day. would love to have something good to tell them about It it says he'd be like, well, if you want to watch the finished Dickhead, go to Temecula Valley. It's in the four to six PM slot. And please vote for us.
01:17:41
Speaker
We can really use it. We need Smitty folks. We got to win this, guys. It's like, don't worry. They they take, they take ah there's a senior discount because our cast 100 years old.
01:17:58
Speaker
An of wheelchairs and walkers coming into the set. Oh, yeah. so So this was a long-winded explanation of all that. And that stupidity I never considered was, you know, what I do to others.
01:18:13
Speaker
um But yeah, like let's say we come out with this film. It doesn't go anywhere. It doesn't amount to anything, which is the most likely. Yeah, just be honest. It's the most likely outcome. Because we have a lot of other friends who have done their first movie. Literally nothing happened. And nothing happened, and that's been it.
01:18:30
Speaker
um For instance, there is Steve and Joe's film. Hair Trigger. Hair Trigger, which was it was like... Yeah, if I saw that as someone with money, I'd be like, hey, let's give these guys a shot let's give these kids some more money and ah let's get a producer to kind of corral everything and let's see what we can call it. like I think that would be a good investment.
01:18:53
Speaker
um They have that. you know They went to school for that. you know They have that ability. We've seen it. Hair Trigger... For every issue that we have with Hurtrigger, it's just like, look, you guys just didn't spend enough time on it.
01:19:07
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. No, it's like... And you didn't have enough money. But the other thing was... But also, you could see the potential in the filmmaker. you know It's not just like... Yeah. Great and terrible day of the Lord. Jared and Clark, right?
01:19:19
Speaker
Everything was against them to get that movie made. oh And it's a fucking miracle that the movies ah the film is as good and as watchable as it is. And it is very watchable. yeah And you can see that that potential that's there. you know It's like, well, what what would happen if we actually gave them some money and let them run?
01:19:35
Speaker
Yeah. Director's cut. Steven Arrepez. Yeah. Like, if he actually could afford, like, more than one light, like, it'd be great. I'm fucking with you, buddy. I know you're listening to this and thinking, goddamn those fuckers. but Yeah, I gotta get him that script. I've been thinking about that a lot. that Not until my taxes are done, though. but Sorry, Steven. If you're listening to this, text came up.
01:19:55
Speaker
Gotta get that. But as soon as that's done, your script is next. The My Bad script. But... To be produced and directed soon by Stephen Arapes. But the way like I managed with our film not mattering. Damn, that so that episode will never come out.
01:20:12
Speaker
Where I was like, you gotta to get rid of the poker scene. Did he agree with it? I blacked out. He did not agree. Okay, sorry buddy. I'm sorry. Please, continue. It's his film.
01:20:25
Speaker
Um... like it I almost spit-tanked my turkey 101. But that's the only way I can argue any of this is you know just creating something that's worth everyone's time. And I think we have – Like it if you only are within the vacuum of the vacuum our audience will be, because let's be honest, the majority of our audience are going to people who were involved in this film to some degree.
01:20:51
Speaker
Like our family watching it, ah workers, families watching it. You know, it's all going to exist within that. Yeah. But if we can work within the vacuum of what we hope to, which is an audience who don't know shit about what's on screen other than what's in front of them.
01:21:08
Speaker
and that's why They don't know any backstory and they're just there to see piece. That's why I've kind of been dying to watch it with Jared. ah Jared, your neighbor. Jared and Clark. Jared and i was Dude, isn't it so fucking weird that he ended up like my neighbor? Yes. That's fucking bizarre. That's why I'm like. He's from fucking Pennsylvania.
01:21:29
Speaker
and He's a random Redditor. I've never been to Pennsylvania. We had no idea they lived close. Yeah. When we were like, hey, you want to come on? Because it could have been a... Yeah, because we saw what they were doing. It like, hey, yeah, you guys seem cool. Like, you got some good shit. like And now he's your fucking neighbor. Now he's my neighbor.
01:21:44
Speaker
Like, dude, like that's too spooky. You got a great post. Spooky action at a distance right there. Let's see this movie and then... Like, we ah we vibed too hard. Like, something's going to happen there, right? It has to.
01:21:56
Speaker
Epstein Island. It just doesn't happen. It doesn't happen organically. Look, there are they're vibes and things that happen. Yeah, I mean, there's that exciting part too, right? Bill Gates don't just get STDs.
01:22:11
Speaker
Well, you know, I think that's when it's it's exciting to be a filmmaker is is getting more and more involved with people who are closer and closer to the tip of the spear, right?
Networking & Filmmaking Expertise
01:22:20
Speaker
Like being involved in doing this.
01:22:24
Speaker
right Because even Kasusha, who's way above any of us, yeah i mean, you know she's out there making films and shit. Aaliyah. you know They're actually out there getting it done and getting closer to their end goals. And it's like, hey, remember us? And hopefully if we continue on a forward momentum and be like, yeah, I remember you. Hey, I need a DP.
01:22:47
Speaker
you know And that's how it grows and blossoms into something. And hopefully riding that momentum because... I mean, I think that's also the logical point too, hopefully, right? If everything goes well, we kind of just have some success for forward momentum and then we can reach out to better people.
01:23:06
Speaker
so I shouldn't say better people, but more experienced people. Like having a DP who's who's you know made more than one feature film and actually wanted to do this for a living. you know Yeah, that's one of the tough things because it's like,
01:23:26
Speaker
There is such a difference in having someone that does this for a living. Well, they just take time to learn the the field. you know These are serious um areas of expertise that require lifetimes of knowledge. This is the anti-AI argument. To be so good. Is that we need these people. Yeah. And then as you grow, you get closer and closer to who you want, right? Because then you get people who will be like, you know, my normal – Uh, rate is this, but I like what you're doing. Let me take that chance on you. And you just, Oh, they do slowly blossom. Well, it kind of happened. I mean, look at audio, look at color.
01:24:07
Speaker
We don't deserve them. No, we, and if we don't deserve VFX, this is what, you know, and this is what think is what is the most heartbreaking thing about the whole project is every step of the way. We haven't deserved anyone. Not only that, but people are always like, you know what? This is like something special. And you're like, yeah, it is, isn't it? It's my fucking dream. This is something special. We worked, Steven and I worked, I mean, it's so hard to like express like how fucked much of ourselves we've tried to we've gave to this goddamn thing.
01:24:41
Speaker
And at the and like at the end of the day, like people are still going to cringe at that jump scare. And people are still going to cringe when Marianne's like, help, we're starting to the house. Fuck, dude. like You don't get it. like ah i We didn't know. If we could cut it, we would have chopped it so fucking fast. But we had to have some of it. We just have to. There are connective tissues that are so important and integral to a scene and to the actual... I mean, we just didn't know better. There's the arrogance. But hopefully it has that innocent charm. The point is, that's where hope that we're different.
01:25:23
Speaker
Is that... We have accepted and like we've literally like fucking Frankenstein stitched every little inch of fucking footage tissue and sinew by sinew to just try and get the best possible thing that we have with the footage we have. But see, that the problem is is we've done that and you're right. like That is a truth and that is something to be proud of. Yeah. Yeah.
01:25:50
Speaker
And we're just like focusing on that needle going through the meat and the thread coming through and just getting that perfect stitch and just refining it more and more, of that stitch, you know, and really making it look nice by the time you're done with it.
01:26:02
Speaker
Because we put in the effort. Yeah, but we still haven't had my fucking Frankenstein's monster. And then we step back far enough and it says, dickhead. It's like, oh no. It's like, ah ah Why does it look like Jared Leto's Joker? No!
01:26:22
Speaker
Fuck!
01:26:26
Speaker
We tried it so fucking hard, man. It didn't look like that of close, I promise. It's like, dude, i remember, you know, as it pretentious as this might sound, it's like we put so much effort into making sure that everything mattered.
01:26:43
Speaker
Everything you see on screen is there because we are expecting it, hoping that it matters enough that you catch the glimpses and you pick up on any ah any subtlety that we possibly could have captured. Dude, the fall is going to be great.
01:27:01
Speaker
We're leaving Las Vegas, baby. I'll tell you that. See, this is why I like the podcast because at the end of this the day, it's a nice case study.
01:27:11
Speaker
Absolutely. We give hundreds of hours of case study and it'll be like, wow, this is... This is how a Nazi is formed.
01:27:24
Speaker
Jesus Christ. And we haven't even gotten into the main discussion. But in all honesty, dude,
01:27:34
Speaker
it's you know it's it's so cliche at this point because we've said it a million times that it's just a miracle to finish. ah any anything any anything Hair Trigger The Great Turbo Day of the Lord Who done done done it ah
01:27:54
Speaker
and Sacred Killing no what was it a Wounded Fawn Old Man by Lucky McKee ah i mean you Boy fuck you you know what's his name ah
01:28:13
Speaker
sinister boy
01:28:17
Speaker
Cargill. Oh, yeah. if We needed help, Cargill. I thought we made an impression. He doesn't care. He don't. Because I was like, hey you he want would you want to come back on and talk? And he's like, yeah, no, I'm good. He said that? Yeah. He said, no, I'm good.
01:28:35
Speaker
Yeah. Well, he did say he had a good time. So he's like, I'm busy. Look, Cargill's a real one, OK? hey and You know what? That's the reality, right? It's our turn to show up.
01:28:47
Speaker
Right? Exactly. And now, let's get into the main discussion. but or Do you have any final thoughts on AI? No. ah Dude, I was going to tell you something. Please. I was a little shook today.
01:28:59
Speaker
Because I was running errands. It's fucking crazy. I was running errands and I was calling me back up in a squally. And, you know, I'm just like... d did do to j to do Oh, you're singing some Japanese city pop.
01:29:13
Speaker
And then ah I hear, oo but you know it sounded real distant. I was like, hey I don't know where that's coming from. I'm just hearing it. And it like, boom flies right past me.
01:29:26
Speaker
I'm like, shit, man. I didn't really kind of notice it because it wasn't really that loud. And then the sheriff was driving so fast. And then I hit Nisqually and Hesperia Road to come back home you know and clean up clean up as much as I can for the podcast.
01:29:43
Speaker
And ah I'm turning, you know where Hesperi Road and Esquale meet? Yeah. Yeah, I'm turning right there. Everyone's driving crazy. I'm like, man, this is such a fucking weird day. This is one of those days where everyone just, I don't know if you ever ever have these days, but it it feels like there's just some days you're on the road and this is the day where everyone in the world in your little area is going to drive like shit. Yeah. And everyone is trying to kill you it's like, fuck, my levels are too high. i need to get off this road as soon as I possibly can. Like, get me off the fucking road. Because it's like every single person, you can't even be mad at you know, the guy who's on your riding your ass all time.
01:30:25
Speaker
Because you have someone cutting you off on some other end and that's just terrible driving all day long. So I'm finally heading home and, you know, the sheriff is like, well, whatever. They ain't pulling me over, you know, shit. I ain't even supposed to be on the road, you know? Hey, officer.
01:30:40
Speaker
But um then i I turn and as I'm turning, i just see like, This black, ah it was like a BMW SUV, hatchback type, you know, the small SUVs.
01:30:56
Speaker
And like sure four sheriffs trailing him. I'm what the fuck's going on? Because cause I saw him and then I saw the sheriffs. And that car wasn't pulling over for the sheriffs and everyone else was. And I was like, what the fuck?
01:31:10
Speaker
And so I complete my turn. There's a Popeye's chicken right there. I parked by the Popeye's and I'm watching this unfold. And dude, I fucking realize the cops, the sheriffs are chasing that BMW.
01:31:24
Speaker
And it like turns the corner on to Nisqually where I just came out of. Yeah. Hits it. There's a AM PM right there. It jets right behind it.
01:31:35
Speaker
And then it comes around and then it hits back onto Hesperi road. It just drives off. And there's. Four sheriffs, two further down. I'm very familiar with this area. There used to be a Los Roberto's right there, and I would eat there all the time. was good. And then two ah other sheriffs come in, and there's a helicopter flying overhead following this person. I'm like, holy shit, this is a fucking car chase. Yeah. I'm in the middle of a car chase.
01:31:59
Speaker
And it was exciting, you know, because I'm like, holy shit, I've never seen a car chase happen in front of me. I've only seen it on TV. Yeah. But then it kind of freaked me out because I was like, shit, if if I were just a little further back...
01:32:16
Speaker
And this person was a little further forward. We kind of intersected at some point. And then I have the girls with me. And I'm like, holy shit, man. That could have fucking. Well, that's not as fun anymore.
01:32:28
Speaker
But it was fucking wild to see that. I was like, shit, man. that's a That's a car chase right now. Yeah, man. Yeah. Absolutely. And it like kind of came close. What does this have to do with a i Nothing. Nothing at all. No, this was just a wild thing that happened to me. Because, you know. Okay. Okay. No, that's... down. down for this. I'm on a complete tangent. This had nothing to with it. Okay. Okay.
01:32:49
Speaker
Because I think about... um I'm like waiting for the punchline where you were like... No, there's no punchline. And then fucking Arnold Schwarzenegger sent out at the BMW or... No, there's no punchline. It was just fucking wild to see that. Okay. Okay. Cool. Cool. Cool. Because then I was also like, well...
01:33:03
Speaker
Shit, you're in a car chase in the high desert. Where are you going fucking hide? Everything's flat. You're not going to escape the ghetto bird. you know you're Godspeed, man. Godspeed, thank you for not killing me.
01:33:16
Speaker
But it kind of reminds me when, remember when we were leaving after the podcast or the film before and we were going to Red Robin? And Margarita was with us. And that fucking car that was getting chased by the cops. Yeah.
01:33:27
Speaker
And they literally almost sideswiped us. And just murdered us. Yeah. And then we're. Remember how close. Because we were like, what's going on? like Yeah. No, it was so surreal. like This was actually how we There was a lot of processing power that was not happening. Because it was like, what the fuck is going on here? just remember thinking. Because it was like, dude, we fucking just almost died.
01:33:47
Speaker
That's what I thought too. Because it wasn't even during it. I was remember was just watching it. then Margaret it was just like, oh, did get more price? Yeah, no, cause because it took me. And then I was like,
01:34:00
Speaker
is that van missing because it just leaped into the golf course and now it's gone? Yeah.
01:34:07
Speaker
Did you guys just see this? What the fuck? Yeah, man. that That's how that felt with that car chase. It just so surreal. Yeah, just a surreal. Well, you know, buddy, they always say like truth is stranger than fiction, man. Like, and how crazy life can be.
01:34:22
Speaker
There's no way anyone would have written Trump. No one ever wrote Trump. That's the saddest part, right? Like Big Brother was still more competent than Trump.
01:34:33
Speaker
Yeah. Like. Maybe Mal Brooks did with Springtime for Hitler. I don't I don't know. Like even Kubrick's someone mentioned Dr. Strangelove on Reddit. They're like, even in Dr. Strangelove, they were better than this. it's like Well, yeah, dude.
01:34:53
Speaker
Oh, my God. And that's crazy. So, main discussion. All right. Have we even touched on it? No, let's start. Is this page two? Page two. Hell yeah.
01:35:03
Speaker
You got your notes? Because you're going to have read them little probably. Oh, shit. Okay. All right. The main discussion. Thank you everyone for sticking around for our Twin Shadows podcast. I hope you're having time. Hey, Crystal Ball.
01:35:15
Speaker
The business of barely understanding the path to filmmaking by two drunk dudes. She's so bad. I wanted to discuss something that sparked a few ideas in Minagin. The first of those being the efficacy of short films and more importantly, spending considerable sums of cold, hard cash.
01:35:34
Speaker
Is it fair to say we both like short films? You like short films? um I don't dislike them. ah Sure. Love them even.
01:35:46
Speaker
There are entirely different beasts in structure, writing, execution, and most of all, reach.
Short Films vs. Feature Films
01:35:53
Speaker
If you've been listening to this episode, it's actually, wow, we're pretty good at this.
01:35:57
Speaker
ah what are Well, yeah, we have like 500 episodes that no one listens Like we're not just sitting here. I mean, I know we're talking to the void, but you know, you learn how to communicate to the void after a while. You you appreciate the void after a while. yeah You know, what's it's so unfair. You look into the void and the void looks back.
01:36:17
Speaker
you know And then what happens after that? the void don't talk back. It don't listen. It doesn't write. It right and don't call. So, buddy, Stephen.
01:36:28
Speaker
Stephen Tejas. Yeah. What are your thoughts on the reach and impact of short films versus the potential of a feature? ah You know, i I... God, this is going to be such a long fucking episode. We'll see. Well, you know, i I really don't know. I love it. i've been having I'm having a great time.
01:36:45
Speaker
I really don't know because, you know, we did Dickhead, which was a feature, and I was like, yeah, go for the feature because that's always going to be way more impressive. And I think that's still true. Although I don't think it's anywhere near as true as it was 10 years ago. And it's not even anywhere as true as it was like 15 years ago or 20, you know, like to clerks, for example.
01:37:06
Speaker
That was like 30 years ago. But I want to say... Well, no, 10 years ago and then 20. Yeah, but well but I want to add to, before you continue, and I think you're making an excellent point.
01:37:20
Speaker
I think even like what our... like cohorts have released the features have at least had some return you think Right? Jared and Clark said, I think they made their month like some of their money back. Well, I ask that because i i think their dreams are as lofty as ours. And we never asked Stephen if and i Director's Cut ever made money. And we haven't had other Stephen. It's not even about the money, though. No, no, no, no. But to a point it is. But to a point it is. Yeah, it's about the money when you don't fucking succeed.
01:37:55
Speaker
Yes. That's what I'm saying. we can't be the Redditor that went broke making that short film that made... but But that's what I'm saying. It's like, i don't think it it has it's ever been about the money to any of us yet like No, course not. We're so in debt because of filmmaking. It's because we love it, period. Well, also, i think we believe in the dream.
01:38:16
Speaker
You and I believe in that hope and dream. Jared and Clark still believe in that hope and dream. We're struggling towards it. You know what it is? Joe and Steve, you know. Can I say one thing real fast?
01:38:27
Speaker
I don't even know if it's that we believe in the hope and dream. It's we've tasted we've tasted the nectar We've had the sip. What nectar? That's what I'm saying.
01:38:39
Speaker
You have to be fucking insane to want to do this. i don't No, no, no. Wait, hold on That's a bad point. Let me say this. The nectar is we made a film.
01:38:52
Speaker
We've struggled. We've fucking labored for 10 years to try to make this film. You've labored for eight years to make a jog at night.
01:39:03
Speaker
so And the thing is is, we're like, when are we you doing it again? Yeah. Well, that's what all of us hope for, right? If haven't, it's like, it's like ah it's the worst kind of AIDS. I mean, it's almost more expensive than AIDS, honestly, being into filmmaking as an independent, low-budget filmmaker. We need to quote that from you. More expensive than AIDS.
01:39:27
Speaker
But, you know, I want you to continue on your thought, but, like, really consider the fact that, like, it we still want to do this. Yeah. After everything we've been through, hundreds of- Well, that's why we're on this fucking podcast. The hundreds of hours of this podcast. You know, Twitch channel's podcast, the podcast about film and filmmakers and filmmaking. Brought to you, as always, by Tom and Steve, 195 episodes later, and we're still poor, broke, and dumb as fuck.
01:39:52
Speaker
And ain't nobody ever saying, let me give you 100 But we still want to do this, right? I want to. i want to do with you. No, I mean. And continue what your thought. I'm sorry.
01:40:04
Speaker
I mean, well, I kind of forgot my thought. But I'll say, going off of what you're saying about doing this, yeah, man. But also, for me, dickhead is the possible last narrative.
01:40:22
Speaker
And I think you have to have that mindset. Like this is a one and done. If it doesn't succeed, i ain't fucking going to live in the delusion.
01:40:33
Speaker
Just send me to work. Let me do some drugs. And I'll sit in my chair and watch a so the moon set and the sunrise. you know I'll accept the fate.
01:40:45
Speaker
um Yeah. what was What else was my... Oh, ya What? I don't know. That's beautiful. But let's take it back.
01:40:56
Speaker
Let's take it back. Back to the basics. Back to the basics of the idea of why short films. Tell me, buddy. Why write and direct a short film?
01:41:09
Speaker
Okay, well, back to the ultimate discussion because I'm kind of in a weird point with A Jog at Night. like We did um Dickhead. were at principle and it kind of felt like we're done.
01:41:21
Speaker
It kind of felt like, hey, now we just put it together. We just piece it together. We're done, bro. Dude, I remember you saying everything went so well, it was almost impossible to think about well. It did. To get to there, it did.
01:41:38
Speaker
a To an extent. Scene one? I didn't know about post. Well, no, scene one even went as good as we could hope for. i've tried so hard. i tried so hard to save that edit. I don't know how many versions I sent you, and you just like, it's not there, buddy. It's not there. It's not there. We tried. We tried. But, like— I tried so hard, by the way, you guys. You have no idea.
01:42:01
Speaker
but But we did everything we could to save every scene. We did everything we could to save everything in this film. But we always knew that it had to be shorter.
01:42:12
Speaker
And so we killed so many scenes we loved and we did that over and over and over and over until Bo's fucking not in the film. He's in, but he's not in. He's not in it.
01:42:23
Speaker
And that might potentially be the best individual scene within a vacuum. That could potentially be the best scene in the film within a vacuum.
01:42:34
Speaker
But do you know what the issue is? No, no, no. Hold on. It doesn't even matter what the issue is. Oh, we could talk about this for a while. No, no, no. But my point is that we did decide to cut it. We refined it.
01:42:48
Speaker
Regardless, I mean. It was absolutely a kill your darlings moment. Because we couldn't take more from the rest of the college scene. But it was refined, right? We cut it. we we trimmed that little piece of goodness.
01:43:01
Speaker
And maybe it was too much fat. Maybe it was too lean. But whatever it was, we trimmed it in the hopes of creating ah more cohesive piece overall. We really wrote ourselves into ah a dangerous corner with scene six and the college.
01:43:16
Speaker
Because so... Why am I talking about Bo? Because we cut Bo. Yeah. So much... but ah We're talking about why write and direct a short film. and you're taught And we're getting into... oh yeah, yeah, yeah. A Jogger Night.
01:43:29
Speaker
But just just like to to close off this anecdote, and i you'll you'll agree with me 100% on this.
01:43:39
Speaker
Scene six is fat as fuck. I like a big something. some know on intention. Yeah. That was like the one scene to develop character.
01:43:51
Speaker
And it was intentionally, it's overwritten, it's very bloated. And... In the editing process, I learned this, and i hope we both, you and I have both learned this as as potential writers, and if we could ever do this again, we'll never fall into this trap where we try to overload a scene on, um i don't why I don't want to say exposition, but it's essentially exposition. It's just talking.
01:44:21
Speaker
It is like, hey, you want we're setting up every character right now. talking in a space where no one moves for 15 minutes. Yeah. Well, it wasn't 15 minutes. It used to be like 24 minutes. It was like 40 minutes. It's like 24, 25 minute long scene. Yeah, it is extremely long, long scene. And the thing is, it was like, okay, it's still very long.
01:44:44
Speaker
it's It's still too long. Even after we cut more than 25% or less than. There is so much less than that happens here. Wait, more than? And it is just it's just the inexperience and hubris of us as filmmakers and writers at this point in our lives where we really just didn't have any idea.
01:45:04
Speaker
And I want to wrap this up because you've got to talk about why you made Jogger Night.
01:45:12
Speaker
But that scene in particular, it's like every film has scenes that are the make or break moments. And scene six is our make or break moment.
01:45:25
Speaker
Because essentially, if you do not get through scene six, you don't get to get to anything else. Like the film really doesn't take off in the way that we like until Jennifer gets home.
01:45:40
Speaker
Yeah. Because that's where it's like those edits and all those things have just been so like set. And so it's like, this is us. Like we actually did it. We demand so much. Right. But right. when Like right. Jennifer getting home, the trick or treaters, the intruder, everything like this is us firing off on every cylinder. Everything is working that we want it to work in a very nice way.
01:46:07
Speaker
But that's thirty that's at the 30-minute mark of the film, or the 22-minute mark. Yeah. It's a little early, right? Yeah. but Because if you if you give us those 22 minutes, we have you.
01:46:22
Speaker
But that's a big ask. Yeah. Go ahead, buddy. Take it away.
01:46:28
Speaker
Yeah. And and that's – I mean, that's the biggest ask on the film as a general is that we have to ask people to get through the – so Because seen four not even scene five scene five and scene six are... yeah's Not even the opening. It's literally just the school scene. it's if you can And if you can before that.
01:46:47
Speaker
It's not that bad. yeah Jennifer and Richard are talking. The school scene is pretty egregious, man. It's very egregious. But you're right. like we We set them up. We're like, hey, guess what's going to happen probably next? You're going to be here a while.
01:47:03
Speaker
And it's only 22 minutes. ah so So we push it there. Yeah. But it's only 22 minutes. Like, please just give Because the thing is, it's like after that. We distilled it as much as possible, right? After that, we just go, man. We just go. And it is fast-paced after that. Like once. Once Jennifer gets home. Once 2-Tip shows up.
01:47:26
Speaker
I mean, it really does end like in 20 minutes after that too. Yeah. So we're only at 40 minutes. And that's still not an hour, so we kept it tight.
01:47:37
Speaker
No, our 80... This is, you know... ah The big Oscar front leader for me is one battle after another this year. Let's compare ourselves to PTA. And that film is two hours and 40-something minutes, but it doesn't it feels like an hour and a half.
01:47:52
Speaker
Dickhead is 80-minute movie that feels like it's 40 minutes, which is like the greatest compliment I could give to you. And it... it it's ah It's a great mercy when... Because it's like, look, we didn't have the budget.
01:48:07
Speaker
We didn't have the... Our actors did so good, man. They did so good. They gave us so much. um So much more than we could ever have hoped for.
01:48:20
Speaker
And if this film is anything, it's because of them and the dedication that Steve and I have to make what we could. The best we could. I promise we will stop talking about Dighead for most of the rest of this episode.
01:48:38
Speaker
um But I wanted to talk about short films because, look, there's there's something very alluring about a short film because, right, like 1 to 45 minutes or whatever you consider a short film, maybe anything under an hour i think could technically be a short film.
01:48:59
Speaker
um But the shorts that I'm talking about are going to be in the 1 to 20 minute frame.
01:49:09
Speaker
Because anything longer than that, it's like you probably have a budget way more than anything that our listeners are going to have a war experience. um Like, you're you're paying your crew? well We don't know what that means. Like, we want to know, but we we don't.
01:49:28
Speaker
So...
01:49:31
Speaker
Here's the setup. You love movies. You love film. I know a lot of people might argue there's a distinction between movies and film. And you can say that the semantic bullshit and the argument ultimately boils down to one thing.
01:49:49
Speaker
And it's that we all love movies. We love the the storytelling of film. And that is why this podcast is a thing. And it's why we hope it's a thing.
01:50:01
Speaker
It's why we hope you listen is because we really do love movies. Steven and I fucking love film movies, whatever it takes. If it doesn't matter if it's as silly as odd ah well, um your, you know, your, come on, like who loves your, we do.
01:50:24
Speaker
ah But, and it's virtually who loves Tokyo story? we do. yeah that That would be a movie night. Your and Tokyo story, that would blow your fucking mind. Your dick would fall off. Or your vagina would squeeze up. I don't know. Whatever.
01:50:39
Speaker
I'm an evil Nazi, so who knows?
01:50:44
Speaker
But if you're like us, you want this to be what you do. The ability to live your passion fully, completely...
01:50:56
Speaker
without the restraint and stress and struggle of living a capitalist commercial life is beyond most of us.
01:51:07
Speaker
Simply and truly, it is beyond most of us. We do not have the option to just live this life where teachers and hotel clerks and i t guys and photo lab technicians and student aides and we're struggling individuals.
01:51:36
Speaker
And the allure of a short film is that it feels more possible.
01:51:42
Speaker
And I guess I'm here to argue that while it feels more possible, it's not necessarily the right thing to do.
01:51:56
Speaker
And it's weird to say because I really like to make short films. I like the idea of short films. I like watching shorts. I had an absolute blast at the Temecula Valley Film Festival.
01:52:13
Speaker
If you've never been, please come out and show some support. If you're in the Southern California area or if you would ever want to come and see a very well developed and cool film festival, come and check out the Temeckia Valley Film Festival.
01:52:30
Speaker
But short films are are ah theyre a passion of ah filmmakers because they're accessible. And the idea I think they're marketable. Well, my point is ah is ah is that they're not.
01:52:46
Speaker
And the the idea is that short films... like filmmakers Filmmakers really need to take a rethink and thought on short films because the idea of spending $5,000 $10,000 to make a short film...
01:53:04
Speaker
Versus what we could do on a feature is something to consider. Yeah. Because it wasn't Great and Terrible Day of the Lord ah relatively done on a low budget? Yeah, absolutely. Well, obviously. But like wasn't it like 22? 2010?
01:53:22
Speaker
ah Sure. I don't know exactly. Because our budget's a little more than we... it it was Our budget's going to be close to $100,000. Yeah, at the end of the day, yeah, probably. That's a big budget.
01:53:36
Speaker
I was expecting that, you know. I was expecting maybe like $25,000, you know. i was but but But in retrospect, we could probably make a feature length at a respectable, like maybe like a $20,000, $50,000 budget. you promise this would ah just be $25,000?
01:53:55
Speaker
No, but what but what I'm saying is, right, we probably could. No, but but that's also what I'm saying too is like, Ours has ballooned I'm so glad you're back. I think you were gone for like an hour. and i just sorry. I had to make a bottle.
01:54:07
Speaker
I was getting deep, man. I'm glad you're back. I love you, buddy. I fucking love you, Steven, man. Well, hope so, buddy, because ah we've been in this for you over years, man.
01:54:18
Speaker
um What are we talking about? Short films. Oh, yeah. Short films. So why did you make A Joggin' Night? Well. And let's go into let's go into that. because So this whole episode and what we've kind of been talking about and what I've been talking about is the efficacy and the consideration of short films versus feature films versus what we saw with the Talkies ad and like why not just make like a spec ad on or an ad on spec ad.
01:54:46
Speaker
Because we've been talking about Rico on this show for quite a while. Yeah. And we've been talking about Bob Alowski and other shorts. And it's like, do we really want to sink thousands of dollars into a short film when we could sink thousands of dollars into what could be a feature and then that that that potential? And that's kind of what this episode is about. and i want to And we're going to dissect that and kind of go through some of these things. We still have many pages of notes and still a script to read. i have ah I have a good way to this. So please.
01:55:21
Speaker
You know, we were we were doing Dickhead and we were, i think, a year in to post at that time. And we were still kind of, I think, writing that momentum that this is going to get done quick.
01:55:35
Speaker
So then I should get started on the next project, which should be a short. And i was like, okay, it's going to be done quick, but it wasn't done in that year that we thought it would be. And now we're kind of slowing.
01:55:47
Speaker
So maybe I could get a short out ah ahead of time of Dickhead. And then we could use a short to be that momentum for Dickhead. And that's why I was saying that I think shorts are still good for marketing.
01:55:59
Speaker
And I think this is still true in that if you do a really good short, That you can still get money to accompany that. This is why you really need to read the notes.
01:56:11
Speaker
but that But yes, you're right. So so i I think there's still that belief system because that's how it was back in the day, right? Like you do a short, it's a proof of concept. You get the money. You can then do your feature.
01:56:28
Speaker
Those are kind of the old school natural progression. Now everything's shaking up. To no end. And people are doing shorts and not coming out with anything. Even though back in the day, yeah, maybe you can argue that that short should have led to something more. And so that's even... There's something I want to kind of ask you.
01:56:48
Speaker
yeah Do you have any... you have a thought to finish before I ask you? i was going to say quadruple so for features, and then that's it. So I'm curious kind of you're kind of curious to get your take on I just had this thought while we while you were saying that.
01:57:02
Speaker
I think a short film... is like the one in a million chance. What is that? Butterscotch candies? Oh no, I'm bitch. doing it because I haven't done nicotine in a month and man, that craving's strong, bro. No worries, buddy. Do whatever you need to do.
01:57:18
Speaker
i got a plenty. I'm so fucked up. It's still good. i yeah I'm feeling good though. You look like Nioh right now. You're like, yeah I've seen it all, man. I am. I feel like I am. um And it kind of sucks when I do feel like I see it all because I have this idea that's like, damn, you see it all it's like, you're a failure. Yeah.
01:57:38
Speaker
You're a failure, dude. If only you actually it tried, you stupid fuck. um No, we didn't know anybody. We tried hard, dude. Don't you remember writing that script? No, one and that's not what I'm talking about.
01:57:52
Speaker
I just mean in life in general. Well, this is what this this is all compressing down to is our entire existence, right? Because we thought so highly of ourselves and now it's like, well, now it's time to kind of show. Hold on. One, I never would say I thought highly of myself. Yes, you do. You totally think highly of yourself, narcissist. and That's the whole point of a narcissist is you guys think highly of yourself.
01:58:13
Speaker
Fuck, you're right. I hate it. Like that's, what a narcissist is. You know what the beautiful thing is? It's like as highly as I think of myself as I think of you, man. It's like, you know, like we're actually like doing something. I feel like we're, it sucks to feel like we're better and different when we have nothing to show for it.
01:58:30
Speaker
that's the ultimate you've achieved you are like you are narcissistic that's your name dude I don't gotta show anything dude trust me it's better yeah fuck you know you know what you're right man who done done it is like it's still better because we got nothing to show for it but that but that's That's one of the hardest things to to face, right? The the greatest of hubilities. Well, you know, I wanted to say, because I predicted that you were going to say that the reason why you still would want to write and direct a short film is for the sake of the art of it.
01:59:05
Speaker
And well that' and i literally wrote in the notes, if you read it, did you read it? No. Look at it. Look at what I said. Look at the but the bullet point. I see Crystal Ball's face.
01:59:16
Speaker
No, what? Because my argument, my argument, is that yeah we cannot afford to invest the resources we thought we could into short films.
01:59:31
Speaker
And that's my argument. It's because we could just push a little bit harder and make that the feature. No. my Because the what I want to say is, like look, the the the short film is the one to million shot, where the feature is like the one to 10,000 shot.
01:59:49
Speaker
Well, see, my my whole... but Now, that's my setup. yeah Take it away. So my thought process to that... Because obviously you didn't do a short. What? No, because i mean you sent me so many ideas and features of you sent me so many ideas of various lengths of films that you could do. and you could yeah I mean, you could ditch Dickhead and do that. And you know, I'd help you.
02:00:18
Speaker
And those could take priority. I mean, look at Blink. All we got to do is maybe invest like... Two, three days of solid work to recover files and shit.
02:00:28
Speaker
And we could make a little one minute short that we could then put out there. And then that gains us traction, right? That builds momentum. Blink ain't that about We can still use it. But that's what I'm saying. We can invest time into Blink and get it out there. But we haven't.
02:00:42
Speaker
And... I mean, I'm at that point, and you've been at this point longer because you your family's older than mine, where I'm burnt out, and all my effort is going into dickhead.
02:00:55
Speaker
Everything else has stopped. Even this podcast. like we haven't I haven't released a podcast episode. I've been very sloppy in my release dates with the podcast. like There's been ah weeks of nothing, and there's going to be another week of nothing right now.
02:01:13
Speaker
And we've devoted so much of our little bit of energy left it to dickhead. That's the worst part of it, right? It's like we're giving it that little extra. It's like, this is all I got.
02:01:26
Speaker
And we're squeezing our finger for blood, but nothing's coming out. Let me go a little lower on the head. You're at your elbows. Oh, it's still dry. such I don't want to get too close to the heart, man. I kind of need that. Yeah, dude. I get it. So that's what I'm saying. like you've You've always been focused on dickhead where...
02:01:50
Speaker
I think I was still riding that high of finishing through principle. And i was like, okay, well, okay. Dickhead's taking a longer. Let me do a short so short short film.
02:02:01
Speaker
And, you know, like I can probably finish that in a time span that Dickhead will take to be completed in post. And then we could use the short film to kind of generate momentum.
02:02:13
Speaker
I think that's how I see a short film. It's like it's a momentum better builder. Your short film's not going to succeed to the point where someone's just going to probably give you money to make a feature. That's one in a million. Yeah, you could sit on that for like a year or two and not worry.
02:02:30
Speaker
Like a short film's probably going to get you... a six month advance to work on another short film that's going to be bigger. And if you're lucky, if you're lucky, it's probably not going to be that. But, you know, you again, like i was talking about networking, you know, just trying to build and build and build this bigger thing. And I think that's where a short film can exist because it can exist in humility and humbleness.
02:02:56
Speaker
Because we ran into a lot of error errors in Dickhead that I don't think we would have run into if we had started off with short films first. Absolutely.
02:03:06
Speaker
100%. If you and i had collaborated and and made some shorts before, you know what the worst part is about getting older? Is you remember how dumb you fucking were?
02:03:19
Speaker
And then you remember like, damn, I'm still sharper than I am today. It's not even that. I just think like, fuck, dude.
02:03:28
Speaker
We... We know so much more now, and it's it's unfair that to our younger selves that we can't hold the same standard to them because they just we were just way fucking dumber. like The best thing we had ever seen was Interstellar.
02:03:43
Speaker
Yeah, but also— Why? but i know You fucked us— But also there's the older self that wouldn't take the chances that we're taking, that we took. Oh, no. We would take the chances. We're dumb. ah we're still we're still We're still that naive. We're still that we're not. Because. Motherfucker, you worked on the Barrett thing. Look at. but I know you're going to cut it, but you taught you said.
02:04:04
Speaker
Look at, brother. Look at this. When we were writing that script, I don't know how you were, but there were nights where I was staying up all night. Yes. Absolutely. And I was just motivated by excitement.
02:04:15
Speaker
And enthusiasm. Now, I'm like, well, I got to get to bed early. I mean, I'll get on the edit soon enough. I'm going to i work on that dialogue. Like, there ah there's a trauma that happened, you know, that we did to ourselves. absolutely. but no dude, there's a trauma because we fucked up a lot. Yeah, but when we started, like, dude, I was like,
02:04:38
Speaker
I'm going to go home. I'm going to Denny's. I'm staying up to six in the morning because I work at 1.30. So I was like, I'm staying up six in the morning, seven in the morning. I'm just going to fucking write. And then I'll send that to you. And we just had this long back and forth that lasted what?
02:04:51
Speaker
Months. ah Three to six months. Yeah. You know, before we got into post or not post until we got into pre and re and then we were planning for that. And we set deadlines for the script. We did like everything. We did everything we thought we were supposed to do. yeah We got a storyboard artist who fucking drew his stick figures. And there were some serious enthusiasm and effort. And even the stick figures we got back for the storyboard were like, hey, man, how many of those storyboards? How many of those did we do?
02:05:22
Speaker
Like at least 40. forty No, we did the whole film. I know. We have the whole film storyboarded. We have a storyboard artist on our film. That storyboard is hundreds of pages.
02:05:34
Speaker
Yes. Like literally, it's hundreds of pages. i have a fucking copy of it. It sits above my desk. We made copies. We made director's copies. We made actor's copies. We made ah crew copies. Like...
02:05:47
Speaker
We invested ourselves full-heartedly. And I think that requires ah the beauty of youth. The beauty.
02:06:00
Speaker
And as you get older, you're like, I do all day it Trust me, there's a lot of stuff that's a bit of a waste of time. I always think about like, dude, like there's like no way we could do it again. Exactly. That's what saying. It's like we got it. We worked. We got to get this right because it's like we can do some short films because we love it. Maybe we'll do an anthology. Maybe we'll do one more film like because we love it.
02:06:27
Speaker
But then there's that reality, and and that's the harshest part. Yeah. We worked so hard to make Dighead. Because like it's like Vanderbeek. If you would have gave me $2.3 million, I wouldn't be on a ranch in Texas.
02:06:41
Speaker
right But at the same time, like we worked so fucking hard. like Just thinking about it, it's like it would be impossible to make again. yeah the fact i mean we were like we were I remember we would ah just the casting.
02:06:55
Speaker
We spent like a weekend just having people come and interview us. And then we brented you rented a space in LA. And we went down. And Luis was like checking people in. And we like were literally like interviewed and fucking casted hundreds of fucking people. Hundreds. Yeah, we went through hundreds. In the literal 100s of people to cast this film. It was thousands.
02:07:19
Speaker
Yeah. I think we were. And we have we have these all recorded where and they live on a Google Drive. Maybe I don't know how to count to 1,000. It's not thousands. We were at least like a solid.
02:07:29
Speaker
We have over 100. We were probably around 300 to 400. Yes. yes When I think about it, literally, maybe 200. We were probably around the 200 mark. It's over 100. Oh, way more than 100. Like, literally, I went through thousands.
02:07:45
Speaker
Yeah, I probably went to about, through around 2,000. um actors who submitted for the role. And these are the ones we selected, everybody that watches the movie. These yeah these were people who selected ah to audition, and then I would go through page after page after page of just actors and watching reels.
02:08:06
Speaker
And then we narrowed it down more and more and more. Casting calls, callbacks. So to bring it back to the topic of the short film, would you go through an effort again through this for a short?
02:08:17
Speaker
Because this is kind of what we're kind of doing with Rico. Oh, absolutely. But that's that's why I say, like, I can't do what I did. ah I'll speak specifically specifically if we're going to talk about Rico. like I've been telling Alex, like dude, you really got to take care of it. You really got to take the lead because I can't do what I did on Dickhead for Rico and I can't do what I did for a jog at night on Rico.
02:08:43
Speaker
It just requires so much effort, time and effort. And if you're going to put in that time and effort, you're not going to finish post. You got to finish the project first. You know, like we can talk shit on anyone who came out with a film within seven days and released or whatever.
02:09:00
Speaker
But at the end of the day, they have something to show for it. And that says a lot. Like we can brag about our 10-year film that hasn't seen the light of day. oh we want. We can call it the greatest masterpiece ever made that's ever been printed onto digital negative. Like it is the greatest digital film ever made. We can say that all we want. But we ain't saying that.
02:09:23
Speaker
We ain't got no Casablanca hidden under our bedsheets. But until it like is actually there to be viewed, that says a lot. And ah i don't know. My point was I kind of lost it. Well, don't worry. What are the pros of making a short film?
02:09:41
Speaker
Well, again, I think it's that momentum. I don't think it's marketing in the way it used to be. i think... And maybe I'm wrong, but I think back in the day when you were shooting on film, if you did a short film that was really good, you could get a feature.
02:09:55
Speaker
Now I think if you do a short film that's really good, you can ride that momentum into maybe the next short film. That's going to be a little bigger. That's going to be way bigger and much better. Well, what about like Sandberg with Lights Out, David Sandberg? What was his name?
02:10:13
Speaker
Yeah. That's right. Or you write it into- Something like that. Or you write it into a feature. And he's kind of in that area where he did one viral short film that then turned into a feature and launched his career, right?
02:10:30
Speaker
Which the short film, he wouldn't have gotten his career. He wouldn't have made Shazam, which is pretty fucking big. You know, regardless of how it did. Or Shazam 2. He made Shazams.
02:10:41
Speaker
like It's like, dude, you're up there. You got all the funding you need. Regardless if that film came together or not, you were at that place where you pretty much had anything you could want.
02:10:55
Speaker
Anything else more that you want, you're a fucking phony. Right? like It's like, either you get it done with $200 million or you don't get it done. Like, what the fuck are talking about, bro? ah Yeah. Right? Right?
02:11:08
Speaker
But he did that natural progression with that short film that went viral, but also he did a ton of other short films that didn't get noticed, but led him to his viral video.
02:11:20
Speaker
But then also, I don't know if he counts because he was a YouTube person more than... No, he wasn't though. He did short films and then went to YouTube? are No, no, no. Short for it. He did festivals and then he went to YouTube?
02:11:32
Speaker
No, but he's like a – he only made like YouTube videos. Yeah, so he's different from us. But he's not – he is, but only because we don't make anything.
02:11:47
Speaker
Okay, that's the biggest difference. Yeah. that's the biggest difference. Yeah, you want that argument. Yeah, you shut me down right away, buddy. We haven't made anything in fucking years. Touche.
02:12:03
Speaker
yeah I mean, butt spaghetti was literally years ago. Okay, yeah. well i All right, next question. What are the cons?
02:12:14
Speaker
Of course, the next question is what are the cons? Why not make a short film? The reach, right? i think Hold on. How about this? Let me ask. ah the Fuck the question. Let me ask you this.
02:12:27
Speaker
How can you justify spending $10,000 on making a short film? I wouldn't. I wouldn't make a short film for that much. I would do a short film for maybe $5,000 at most.
02:12:39
Speaker
And that's it. At most. Because Jagged Night was like 2,500? twenty five hundred I think. It might have been 5,000. ah But it wasn't above. It wasn't 10,000.
02:12:53
Speaker
No, dude. If you're going to go $10,000, why not make it like $100,000 and just go to debt and make a feature? Well, that's my whole argument is that this is filmmakers are like... If you can afford $10,000, you can probably afford $100,000 because you know they'll sign you up for anything, dude. I got so much debt that I can get into. Well, no, but my argument if not even just actually the debt. It's the potential.
02:13:18
Speaker
No, but that's what I'm saying. Like... Money buys you production. You know something we kind of slept on and I brought it up and i we didn't really talk about it? And ah maybe it does should be talked about and discussed.
02:13:32
Speaker
The structure of short films is different from a feature film. What you mean? You do not have the economy of time that you have for the feature film. like where We always talk about like trimming the fat.
02:13:45
Speaker
Well, a short film. well Dude, a short film is like fucking Ethiopian lean. i I'll say it. Like 0% body fat on a short film. Yeah.
02:13:56
Speaker
You're not allowed any. you Because, right, a short film, you feel the time ah on a short film longer. I think you're more forgiving of a short film. Because you don't know where it's going to go.
02:14:09
Speaker
And it just ends. But it has to go somewhere. Well, no. Fast. Do you remember Temecula Valley Film Festival? and I do. Oh, yes, I do. You hated every single film. Except for like two. Yeah. Yeah.
02:14:22
Speaker
But that's not the reality. The reality isn't those two films are the majority. The reality is everything else was the majority that you saw. Yeah, absolutely. I'm not disagreeing there. What I'm saying is that makes it harder to make your film stand out because so many of them are so bad.
02:14:37
Speaker
And that people do not understand the economy or the structure of short films versus making a feature film. Because they're so used to the pacing and understanding of a feature film, and they have no understanding and aspect of the pacing and timing and execution of a short film. but Because there is difference. But it's a spectrum, right?
02:14:57
Speaker
But there you can't deny there's a difference. But there's a spectrum. Hold on. There's a spectrum. And there were some short films that you didn't like, but that you felt some momentum on, right? Yes.
02:15:08
Speaker
And so you ride that momentum, right? I think that's the best that a short film is going to do for you nowadays because it's like, why not why didn't you do a feature? That's my whole point of this podcast.
02:15:21
Speaker
And that's where it's gone. And my my ah my bipolar dichotomy argument against why you should do a feature a short is you could still make them for cheap well there's no reason you can't make a great short film for nothing not only can you make them for cheap but also think think of the virality of a is that a word sure of a short film why not like you said it the lights out short film is a minute and a half yeah i mean think about tiktok
02:15:54
Speaker
Think about ah YouTube shorts, Instagram, Facebook. All of that shit gets shorter and shorter and shorter. so pulls back into the talkies and the video with ah pipper pitburgh Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise fighting. Yeah, you felt like that was an hour? That was only 15 minutes.
02:16:12
Speaker
But my argument is... It was 15 seconds. Oh, 15 seconds. But my argument is it' like maybe shorts have a bigger place because they're just shorter.
02:16:23
Speaker
Shorts have a place. I think the thing that I'm trying to fight against or rally against is the expensive short. I think you have to challenge yourself. you think should be the limit?
02:16:36
Speaker
Like when you're doing a short, when do you say like- don't- 5K. It can't be above that. If you spend more than 5,000, you're doing something wrong. I got to pee. Are you going- Is that what we're doing?
02:16:47
Speaker
Yeah, let's do a pause. I really- I could really use to pee. And then we have- beers in the So the idea that spending more than say like 5,000, which I think is a reasonable within your means number- That's like not the bar for a short.
02:17:04
Speaker
If you're spending more than that, you're you should probably invest in a feature because you could probably get away with it. Yeah. um I mean, you got to be creative, right? because i mean Here, let me even say this. Let me just read the notes because I wrote something here that… Do we even know what the fuck we're talking about? No. Or is all this anecdotal nonsense spouted by men who have more in common with Ubo than Stanley Kubrick? Yeah. Unless my crystal ball is wrong, and if you look at the notes, there's a picture of crystal ball. I mentioned it earlier. And bitches that are hot are never wrong.
02:17:40
Speaker
Damn. Reagree, short films are pretty damn cool. But in closing, to answer the question prompted for the main discussion...
02:17:52
Speaker
Jesus Christ. actually wrote a lot here. He had he didn't even have the goddamn common courtesy. Sorry. Sorry. no you're Buddy, I love you. Don't worry about it.
02:18:04
Speaker
The question prompted for the main discussion...
02:18:11
Speaker
Is it really worth it to produce, direct a short film for thousands of dollars for doing something in a safer budget and be challenged by the money limitation? Because we cannot deny that budget slash money is very important, especially with a short film.
02:18:29
Speaker
Because short films need to be an even higher quality and production to really stand out and be something. We can debate this, but you will lose. No, I think ah there has to be a threshold of ah short film to feature film.
02:18:48
Speaker
You know, there has to be
Low-Budget Film Success Stories
02:18:49
Speaker
that threshold where you cross from one into the other. And, you know, there was that one feature with Harold and Kumar. God, I can't think of his name.
02:19:02
Speaker
Not Kumar. Ken, Cal Penn? No. ah No.
02:19:10
Speaker
Kumar. No, the other one. Harold. Yes, Harold from Cowboy Bebop. Yes. You know who I'm talking about. yeah I do.
02:19:23
Speaker
God, his selection of films is so bad. Missing. That missing movie? Yes, but he did Missing. Which was very... What's his name? Which was a really good... John Cho? John Cho. Steve Cho?
02:19:38
Speaker
Cho something. yeah It's not John? Sure. and yeah It's John. I think so. John Cho. Anyways, ah you know he did that film that was on like basically a computer screen.
02:19:51
Speaker
Yeah. And that worked. I mean, I don't know how expensive that film cost to make, but it kind of don't cost that much. But then there's also the greatest possible self-funded film, which is Blair Witch Project.
02:20:05
Speaker
You think? For marketing. Haven't you heard how like they like they made no money and they were trying to doesn't matter, you but from from cost of production to ah generation of- Are you seriously, you're forgetting a film. That's like the easiest layup for this ever of all time.
02:20:21
Speaker
Paranormal Activity, which was made for like $14,000. That was cheaper than Blair Witch. Oh, yeah. I thought Blair Witch was like $7,000. Paranormal activity was made from absolutely nothing, and it made millions and millions and millions of dollars. Even better than paranormal activity.
02:20:38
Speaker
That's like the gold standard, buddy. Yeah. That's like that's the the the the nothing to hero story. It literally fucked everything because – Skinnamarink, right? Do you remember how much that – production was for... Let's just focus on Paranormal. do you remember but Do you know? No, don't look it up. Come on, give me a number.
02:20:59
Speaker
I want to say it was made for under 100k. Okay, that's expensive. I'm talking about if 5,000 is the threshold for a short film. i think Paranormal is not a short film. I'm pretty sure Blair Witch was less than 100k.
02:21:13
Speaker
Dude, that's that fucking movie was made in 1999, man. Yeah, so it was probably like 70k. Even though it was like 5,000. But anyways, there is that threshold and you can create very um ah interesting films for very little, right? Absolutely. Blair Witch, Paranormal Activity, Missing. um ah that There's that short film where they go back in time. Primer.
02:21:43
Speaker
Primer. That was made for like $10,000. Clerks, obviously, is like the film. $40,000. So you can make these films, but... But that's pretty rare.
02:21:56
Speaker
That's pretty rare. This is my challenge. Hold on, hold on. But you're better off doing the feature than the short. Yes. Because a feature is always just going to be more impressive. Because you're going to give more slack to a feature, right?
02:22:10
Speaker
Absolutely. I give way more slack to Evil Dead as a feature film than I would to it as ah a short film. As a short film, The Evil Dead, Sam Raimi never makes it. Coen Brothers never become anything. you know All these filmmakers just don't exist because they did a feature our a short film. But because they chose to do a feature, you respect it so much more, right?
02:22:34
Speaker
Because, dude, you guys came together and made this impossible thing. And you came with enough sincerity to make me appreciate it. Maybe the story wasn't there. Maybe the effects weren't there.
02:22:48
Speaker
Maybe the lighting, maybe the film, like blah blah, blah, blah, blah wasn't there. But I could still see that sincerity that makes me love and respect art. Motherfucker's wearing a hood like a goddamn Sith Lord, dude. I'm ready, bro. We talk about Attic and Vader. You know the thing, and this is, we'll all'll wrap it up ah a little bit, and then we'll get into the script.
02:23:08
Speaker
Because ah the script kind of ties into the idea of what, because I wrote this script with the intention of like, this is something you could like film for very cheap, for free, like a very cheap thing. Yeah.
02:23:25
Speaker
It's just the interaction of two people. um Didn't you say all of your scripts are for free? Yeah, absolutely. If you listen to this podcast, I dare you to make it one of my scripts. I dare you, motherfucker.
02:23:37
Speaker
Please, motherfucker. Please. I tell you, there's some gold in there. There's some real gold. But I think, you know, we talked about it. ah I'm sure we could have gotten it a little more. But the end of the day is like, look, don't go broke making a short film.
02:23:55
Speaker
Yeah. You should really use short films as practice, training, and like, you got, like, short films have to be unique in a way where features don't.
02:24:12
Speaker
Yeah. Because shorts are, they're you know, they're punches, they're quick, they're like, they're an idea, they're a concept. They're fun to meant fundamentally fundamentally different than a feature.
02:24:23
Speaker
Yeah. Because they are they have to tell their story. and I want to say 10 minutes. But like there are very there are there are a lot of short films that are longer than 10 minutes. but I mean, my favorite short film. and i The Red Balloon. Yeah, and that's like 40, 45 minutes. Yeah.
02:24:42
Speaker
That's a tough one. I mean, I think within a short. But come on. that's like one of That's like one in a billion. But that's what I was going to say. i think with a short, your mindset has to be get out as soon as possible.
02:24:52
Speaker
Yes. If it can be 10 minutes, make it eight. If it can be eight, make it six. If it can be six, make can like figure out a way to get out literally as soon as possible while maintaining the integrity. Right. Absolutely. And
Script Analysis: Therapy Session
02:25:07
Speaker
with that, why don't we read a script? So it's Valentine's Day, buddy. Happy Valentine's Day. If hey look if you look at your show notes, there's a big ah picture of Faye Valentine. Faye!
02:25:18
Speaker
We have a script in front of us, but you got to read the action And you're Winky and I'm Ruthie. I'm Winky. That sounds about right. Winky and Ruthie. I don't know why I did this to myself, but I did apparently.
02:25:34
Speaker
And Steven's going to read the action. This is a script. We haven't read a script in a while. So this is a first script since 2024? Yeah. Do you know when the last script is you wrote? Was it like October? but I have no idea. Because you usually stop before we're done. I don't know, but this the first one in a while.
02:25:53
Speaker
Well, it's a special occasion. The knob may be rusty, but I promise it is still functional. So here's the curious happenings involving young men in therapy.
02:26:06
Speaker
Written by not-so-young men. You know what the saddest thing Because you say not so young men. And I was watching K-pop Demon Hunters because it's very… I watched it as well. Pop. And it's good. It is good.
02:26:20
Speaker
Because it's up for best music versus Sinners. Yeah. And honestly, i think that's the most exciting Oscars, ah I don't know, fight going on. Because Sinners, it's got some fucking amazing blues… every music All the music in Sinners is very good.
02:26:40
Speaker
If Sinners is going to get something that's for sound, Sinners should get something for sound. But then I saw K-pop Demon Hunter and it's like, wow, that's a pretty good music.
02:26:51
Speaker
And you know that film has been very instrumental in in ah in introducing an American audience to Korean culture.
02:27:04
Speaker
it's pretty It's pretty damn good. There's some pretty good songs. I'm not going to lie. That golden song, is it's a pop masterpiece. Well, I was also listening to some songs. I was like, wait, that's from K-pop Demon Hunters? I thought that was just a pop song.
02:27:18
Speaker
ah So, tangent, I think that's ah one of the most exciting um face-offs, I guess, with the ah Oscars.
02:27:30
Speaker
Yeah. Byung C. Fuck. What's his name from that movie that just came out by Park Chan-wook? No other decisions?
02:27:42
Speaker
Devices? Something like that? I haven't seen it yet. Park Chan-wook? Park Chan-wook. The old boy guy. Yeah. i No other decisions.
02:27:55
Speaker
Shit. Just continue on the web browser. Something like that? No other choice. No other choice. No. Yeah. With a
02:28:07
Speaker
Lee Byung-hun. You know that actor. He was... What else has he fucking... He was either... he he was in the movies we love. Parasite?
02:28:17
Speaker
Was he in Memories of a Murder? No, he was in... Oldboy? Stoker? No, we've seen the films. We love them.
02:28:30
Speaker
Shit.
02:28:32
Speaker
He was a murderer. Wow, he's really been a he's been in a lot of movies. yeah The Good, the Bad, and the Weird. I don't know if you saw that. Yeah, heard know what I've seen that one. He's the ah the bad.
02:28:44
Speaker
Yeah, he's good. He was in a K-pop Demon Hunters. And it's sad because... All the men's songs suck. Grace, it's so sexist. They're really not as good. Dude, like, know Golden and, uh, what is it, Takedown? Like, those songs are, like, yeah they're so so a good. I was, like, bobbing my was, like, all right, girls, you want to watch this again? Gonna be, gonna be Golden. I'm, like, okay, I get it. I get it.
02:29:11
Speaker
it's It's, like, miraculous how fucking good that is. Let's do the script. But that Korean actor, uh, He did the voice for K-pop Demon Hunters. You can't talk about Koreans and then read a script I wrote.
02:29:23
Speaker
Oh, no. It's not that good. Interior therapist office day. An extreme close-up of a large elementary school-style hand clock ticks towards 1 p.m.
02:29:37
Speaker
The second hand passes over the 12, now officially 1 o'clock. Two men sit in a room, one on a cracked leather couch that creaks at the awkwardness.
02:29:48
Speaker
The other sits on a tall backed office chair, his legs crossed, a yellow legal pad in his lap. The man on the couch is Rutherford Ruthie for short.
02:30:00
Speaker
And the one counseling him is Dr. Winky. You're Dr. Winky. Okay. Okay.
02:30:09
Speaker
The time is officially now, wait, the time is now officially one. How are you, Ruthie? Ruthie looks away at anything in the room that isn't Winky. Well, doctor, I have recently found myself in a bit of a bind.
02:30:30
Speaker
Scribbling some notes, Winky nods, pauses for a beat, then looks squarely at Ruthie. What kind of bind? Should I be worried?
02:30:43
Speaker
nothing so sinister. i just guess maybe I'm a bit embarrassed.
02:30:56
Speaker
Ruthie grabs one of the couch pillows, pressing it firmly into his lap. Lately, ah
02:31:06
Speaker
I've only been able to pleasure myself while watching X-rated films from the the sixties I've tried to control my impulse, but I can't stop lately.
02:31:22
Speaker
What about the decade that has you so under its spell? Ruthie allows a pillow in his lap to drop, and he brings his head up slowly, meaning Winky's eyes for the first time today.
02:31:37
Speaker
The music, the color, the light, the tits, the hair. i just, it's memorizing.
02:31:48
Speaker
I don't see anything wrong having these desires. Is it affecting your day-to-day life? Come on now, Winky.
02:32:01
Speaker
you know i ain't got no fucking life. Language, please. Winky. Sorry. Doctor, how am I supposed to meet a woman if I can't even get it up without some saturated the color and women today? They don't have the bush.
02:32:20
Speaker
Winky stares doodling a naked woman on his legal pad. Starts. Starts doodling. Time reads 1.05 p.m.
02:32:30
Speaker
That's not true of all women. I can't speak for the color differences, but Rutherford, you know, they have these lovely little blue pills.
02:32:40
Speaker
Have you spoken with your medical doctor? You know I can't do that. I do? Why is that? My, uh, my mother.
02:32:52
Speaker
She's my doctor. How could I? no ah no, doc. I don't think this is such a good idea. Has your mother been your doctor all your life? No, she didn't have her practice until I was 14, which is when my father died.
02:33:14
Speaker
year forty tools she says all You're 42 years old now and unemployed. You live at home with your mother.
02:33:26
Speaker
Your doctor? Redness erupts on Ruthie's face. ruthes Ruthie's? Ruthie's. Ruthie's face. His embarrassment plain as day.
02:33:36
Speaker
Well, ah yeah, ah you know all this already. Dude, look, i I kind of suck. like you know Why are you bringing this up?
02:33:49
Speaker
Take a breath, Ruthie. You are in a safe space. There's no judgment here, okay? I just wanted to gauge your reaction. You know you get very defensive when your mother is brought up.
02:34:04
Speaker
Ruthie. Ruthie, look at me. Why is that? You can't make eye contact. Ruthie, look at me. She's protective.
02:34:20
Speaker
you know What's what wrong about that? Nothing's wrong about that. Unless you think something is wrong with your mother's protection.
02:34:32
Speaker
Ruthie dug the lips of his toes into the cheap patterned rug. His legs began to shake. You know, isn't it it's not easy. ah I don't know why she wants me always to be home.
02:34:49
Speaker
She's holding me back. ah ah just I just want to have my own life. i just want to have my own life. i want my own destiny. I want love. i want someone. I want some, someone who loves me.
02:35:06
Speaker
When was your mother born? nineteen 1969. Why? just curious. Do you think that that, that, that, does that hold some relevance?
02:35:20
Speaker
Possibly. What do you think?
02:35:25
Speaker
I think my mother pays you a good amount of money to hear some gossip.
02:35:35
Speaker
She thinks these sessions are helping you. Do you believe they are a benefit? Wait, go now hold on, hold on. Doc, don't change the subject.
02:35:47
Speaker
Do you think I'm holding some strange sexual repressions towards my mother? due to my need to watch women fucked around the same time she was born?
02:35:59
Speaker
do you know how fucking crazy that sounds? Do you, Dr. Winky? Would you even consider putting such a malicious, malcontented thought into my own brain?
02:36:14
Speaker
Panting out of breath, Rutherford slouches in his chair, legs up and his leg His chair, legs stop shaking, he gets real quiet, leans over and picks up his pillow.
02:36:28
Speaker
The two men stare in silence at each other for two full minutes. Dr. Winky smiles as he draws, repeating patterns of circles around the large breasted stick figure drawing. 1.25pm The silence is unbearable.
02:36:46
Speaker
The thickening of the clock grows louder, distorted as if underwater. Ruthie clutches a pillow tighter. Winky finally looks up from his legal pad.
02:36:57
Speaker
Two minutes of sleep. Wait. Two minutes of silence can be very revealing. You didn't look at me the entire time. I was reading. No.
02:37:08
Speaker
I was listening. Okay. oh With your eyes closed. instincts. With my instincts. Winky tears the page from his legal pad. He folds it once, then again. Carefully, he sets it on the side of the table between them.
02:37:27
Speaker
Ruthie eyes it suspiciously. What's that? An exercise. I don't like exercise. You don't like change.
02:37:38
Speaker
Ruthie exhales sharply through his nose. You know what I don't like? Being dissected like a frog. Is that because frogs have guts?
02:37:51
Speaker
A.B. oh What doesn't my mother think we've been doing here? She believes we're working toward independence.
02:38:02
Speaker
Well, the that's funny. Why? Because she's scheduled today's appointment herself. The clock reads 1.27
02:38:15
Speaker
Winky stiffens just slightly. Did she? She called me this morning. Woke me up. Told me not to forget my sweater.
02:38:26
Speaker
Why is mother calling you about a sweater? She worries I'll catch a cold. Winky nods, scribbles something new.
02:38:38
Speaker
Rutherford, what would happen if your mother stopped worrying?
02:38:46
Speaker
She'd get bored. And what would happen to you? Ruthie opens his mouth. Nothing comes out. He stares at the folded paper on the table.
02:38:59
Speaker
What's the exercise? I want you to imagine a future where no one is watching you. ah That sounds illegal.
02:39:11
Speaker
What if I told you your mother was in a relationship with someone yeah I wouldn't know what to do. She's afraid of whatever she wants.
02:39:21
Speaker
Exactly.
02:39:24
Speaker
this me? Yeah. Gotta read the action. Ruthie picks up the folded paper. He unfolds it. It's a crude drawing of breasts on a stick figure. ah Oh.
02:39:35
Speaker
So what is this supposed to be? You tell me. Ruthie looks up. I didn't draw it No? Then who did?
02:39:47
Speaker
Winky smiles, calm and pleasant. Obviously, fucking you drew it, man. Like, i saw you draw it. Are you fucking my mother?
02:39:57
Speaker
The clock suddenly clicks louder. 1.29pm. Have you ever noticed how time moves faster in here? Time moves faster when you're avoiding something.
02:40:09
Speaker
Answer my question. Are you fucking my mom? What? Winky leans forward for the first time.
02:40:18
Speaker
What exactly are you avoiding? Rutherford? Some repressed... Edible. Edible. Wow. yeah You don't give me a chance to read it man. I know for phonetics. Come on, man.
02:40:33
Speaker
Shit. He's like, he ain't getting that one. You know, maybe you did help me shorten the time a little bit. I want to cut out a couple minutes.
02:40:44
Speaker
Oedipal, is that what you said? Oedipal fixation deep inside yourself. Are you worried you see me as some father figure worth slaying?
02:40:58
Speaker
Well, let me tell you this, boy. You're a grown-ass man, and your mom's only got so many years of good fucking left, and you have no right to take that from her. You selfish fucking prick.
02:41:14
Speaker
Slay me! am the dragon! Let's go! Let's fucking go! Ruthie grips a pillow that slowly sets it aside. ah ha ah the my mother's waiting for My mother's waiting in the car.
02:41:34
Speaker
She always is. a long beat. Ruthie stands. The couch creeps one final time. It's the same time next week?
02:41:46
Speaker
Winky checks the clock. Of course. Ruthie hesitates at the door.
02:41:55
Speaker
doctor Yes.
02:41:59
Speaker
Are you afraid of the knight in shining armor? Winky considers this carefully. No. Then, what am i Winky smiles, not unkindly.
02:42:16
Speaker
The bitch. His bitch. His bitch. The bitch, his bitch. You know what? ah It matters. Ruthie exit. Winky sits alone.
02:42:28
Speaker
He looks down at the legal pad, turns the page. We now see the earlier drawing more clearly. Not a stick figure, not a fantasy, a very recognizable full pair of breasts.
02:42:42
Speaker
Winky adds one final detail. A parked car outside with Ruthie watching. Time reads 1.30 p.m. Fade out. The end. What's the final detail? He's watching. Fuck his mom.
02:43:00
Speaker
What do you think, buddy? It's good to be back, buddy. ah It's good to be back. I think 2026, twenty twenty six man What did you think of that script?
02:43:13
Speaker
Awesome. awesome Awesome. Rusty yet functional. Rusty yet functional. like I kind of set you up for that. That was the episode. Thank you for listening to the Twin Shadows podcast. This has been episode 148. A brief but inexplicable explanation of modern filmmaking practices or why the script is always better in our heads.
02:43:36
Speaker
Thank you everyone for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Cut.