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S2 Episode 1: Interview with Ryan Wain
11 Plays1 year ago
After a short break, the Debatable Discussions Podcast is back with a new episode. This time, we are interviewing Ryan Wain, Executive Director at the Tony Blair Institute. Today we discuss the upcoming election, National Service and whether the Voting age should be lowered to 16.
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Transcript
Season Two Kickoff with Ryan Wayne
00:00:07
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Debatable Discussions podcast.
00:00:11
Speaker
After a short break for exams, we are back today with a very big episode to start off season two of the podcast.
00:00:19
Speaker
And with us today, we have Mr. Ryan Wayne, who is the executive director at the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change, who has also worked on delivering the TBI's Future of Britain programme in the past.
00:00:34
Speaker
Hello, Ryan.
00:00:34
Speaker
Very, very nice to have you here with us today.
00:00:38
Speaker
Hey, Dajan.
00:00:39
Speaker
Hey, John.
00:00:40
Speaker
Good to be here.
00:00:42
Speaker
Thank you for coming on today because we've always been looking for sort of a big guest, someone with lots of knowledge about politics and very involved in it.
00:00:49
Speaker
So it's great to have someone like you on today.
Role of the Tony Blair Institute
00:00:52
Speaker
To start off, you know, this sort of discussion about, you know, the state of UK politics at the moment, we're just going to ask you, what does the Tony Blair Institute do and why perhaps you chose to work for it?
00:01:03
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:01:04
Speaker
So look, the...
00:01:06
Speaker
The Tony Blair Institute, I think, is in a category of one when it comes to organisations because the most important feature of the Institute is who our audience is and who we work with, and that is political leaders.
00:01:19
Speaker
So these are women and men around the world who are leading countries, prime ministers and presidents.
00:01:28
Speaker
And what we do for them is two things, really.
00:01:31
Speaker
we give them advice and that advice comes from teams who are based in their countries.
00:01:38
Speaker
But that team importantly is employed by the Tony Blair Institute because it allows us then to have an understanding, a central understanding of how you make change happen.
00:01:50
Speaker
Because the reason why we exist is that becoming a political leader, you think, oh, I've made it, I've been through a bruising campaign, I've won the election, I've got power, now all I need to do is say the five things that were in my manifesto that need to happen.
00:02:07
Speaker
That's the hardest bit.
00:02:09
Speaker
Because turning campaign ideas and manifestos into reality, what we call delivery, is really, really difficult.
00:02:18
Speaker
But we've got people who are trained in that, have a deep understanding of it.
00:02:23
Speaker
And also the guy whose name's above the door, Tony Blair, he was Prime Minister of Britain for 10 years.
00:02:30
Speaker
And it also allows us to bring his understanding, which has only got stronger and stronger, of how you make change happen in government.
00:02:37
Speaker
So we advise leaders around the world on how to make change happen.
00:02:44
Speaker
And then we also come up with ideas and the two can be linked because sometimes the ideas we come up with can be ones that governments are then implementing, but sometimes they're not.
00:02:54
Speaker
We do a lot of work here in Britain where what our job is, is to create a space where we look at how the world is changing around us, climate change, the technological revolution, even things like the world of work and how that might be developing.
00:03:12
Speaker
the tax base of the country, all of these big issues that sometimes politics can ignore.
00:03:17
Speaker
And our job is to come up with ideas that enable governments to grapple with these challenges and also really importantly seize their opportunities.
00:03:27
Speaker
So technology is a great example.
00:03:29
Speaker
Loads of challenges that come with technology, even more opportunities.
00:03:33
Speaker
And when we come up with ideas that enable political leaders to grasp them and put them out to the outside world, we're doing our job
Leadership in Africa and Rwanda's Minister Paula
00:03:40
Speaker
properly.
00:03:40
Speaker
Who would you say is probably the most impressive leader that you've worked with or the institute has worked with?
00:03:48
Speaker
Yeah, look, it's a great question because I have a bias here and a boss to please.
00:03:55
Speaker
I'm not going to fall into the trap of saying Tony Blair, although I think Tony was an excellent prime minister, especially when he really understood how government works.
00:04:06
Speaker
But I actually look at the continent of Africa and we work in about 14 countries in Africa.
00:04:14
Speaker
And I'm always immensely impressed at the calibre of ministers who we deal with there.
00:04:21
Speaker
But I'll pick one, which is Minister Paula in Rwanda.
00:04:25
Speaker
And the reason why I really like her is because she's so focused on actually delivering.
00:04:31
Speaker
She doesn't just campaign and want to be popular in her country.
00:04:34
Speaker
She wants to deliver.
00:04:36
Speaker
And she's also...
00:04:38
Speaker
plays with what's in front of her, which is a very youthful population in Rwanda.
00:04:44
Speaker
There's been some awful tragedies in their past.
00:04:48
Speaker
It's a very youthful, vibrant, creative population.
00:04:51
Speaker
And the policy agenda that she and her fellow ministers are implementing speak to that because they're really leaning into technology.
00:04:59
Speaker
And that also allows someone like Rwanda to...
00:05:04
Speaker
some ways leapfrog other countries which you know an artificial terminology would be called more developed but actually someone like rwanda when they start to roll out digital identities for all of their citizens or they look at how you can use data to help people take control of their health
00:05:23
Speaker
In some ways, they're having conversations and implementing policies that we rarely struggle with in places like Britain, just because of our systems.
00:05:33
Speaker
So I'm really impressed with a lot of the African leaders we work with.
00:05:37
Speaker
Rwanda's a great example.
00:05:38
Speaker
You should Google her and see some things she said.
00:05:41
Speaker
But I'm also excited about some of the young talent that I get to meet, and I include Diane and John Yoo on this, because you're full of ideas, passion, ambition.
00:05:52
Speaker
If you read about young people today, that doesn't come across wrongly.
00:05:55
Speaker
It's misrepresented.
00:05:57
Speaker
But the folk I get to work with, the next generation of leaders, they're the ones who really do excite you.
00:06:02
Speaker
I was just going to say earlier on, but I think what really impresses me about the Tony Blair Institute, as you said, is that it's sort of more than a think tank.
00:06:11
Speaker
Because as a young person, you hear about these think tanks, you think they sound impressive, but actually implementing the policy, seeing the change through, it sounds so much better than just making up ideas.
00:06:23
Speaker
Definitely.
00:06:23
Speaker
And the insight you get from that cannot be underestimated.
00:06:27
Speaker
I never expected to be working in something close to a think tank.
00:06:31
Speaker
And I have to say, as a result of that, I'm sort of...
00:06:35
Speaker
constantly surprised at how much expensive wallpaper is produced by think tanks where the smartest people will go into a room with the right answer to one of the big problems that the country's facing and it will be the right answer if you read all 360 pages of this report the right answer is there
00:06:54
Speaker
But the problem is politics just doesn't work like that.
00:06:56
Speaker
And so our experience of working directly with governments of hiring leaders who have led countries before or being led by someone who's led a country before, that just gives us this unique insight that when we combine that,
00:07:09
Speaker
with our ideas and the creativity.
00:07:13
Speaker
It's a phenomenal piece of work because not only is it the right answer, but it's also the right answer in a way that takes into account all of those considerations of how you make change happen.
00:07:24
Speaker
And it's got that delivery at its heart.
00:07:25
Speaker
I think that is the thing that does set us apart.
00:07:27
Speaker
I'm really glad you picked up on that, John.
Impact of Labour Party's Potential Win
00:07:31
Speaker
So what is the role of the Institute going to be now that Kirstom is very likely to come into government?
00:07:40
Speaker
Is there something already agreed or is it still a bit up in the air?
00:07:45
Speaker
Well, Dan, you've asked a live question, one that many people in TBI are asking.
00:07:50
Speaker
So you're onto the right line of thought there.
00:07:54
Speaker
Obviously, the UK election has not happened yet.
00:07:59
Speaker
So we do not know for sure who the next Prime Minister of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is going to be.
00:08:07
Speaker
But if I was a Tory candidate, or as we used to call them, a betting man, then I would probably put my money on Keir Starmer becoming the Prime Minister.
00:08:18
Speaker
And look, we are a nonpartisan think tank.
00:08:22
Speaker
We'd be a terrible commercial organisation because we give all of our thinking away for free.
00:08:28
Speaker
for those who want to use it.
00:08:30
Speaker
And some of that has been adopted by Conservatives or right-leaning governments around the world.
00:08:36
Speaker
But what I would say about Keir Starmer and his Labour Party, we saw this at last year's Future of Britain, where he appeared on stage with our Executive Chairman, Tony Blair.
00:08:46
Speaker
I think we are going to see a government that has just been elected with a mandate for change, for change in the country.
00:08:58
Speaker
And I think there's a question that Prime Minister Keir has got to ask himself on day one, which is what do we want that change to be?
00:09:10
Speaker
It's not a new thing or a novel thing to say that the last 14 years have been pretty dire.
00:09:16
Speaker
There's been some highlights, but a lot of lowlights.
00:09:19
Speaker
And I don't think the country's feeling great at this moment in time.
00:09:22
Speaker
So I think Keir and the Labour Party could be forgiven for...
00:09:26
Speaker
Just improving things, making trains, run on time, reducing NHS waiting lists, fixing crumbling classrooms and all the basic stuff really at government.
00:09:37
Speaker
But from the conversations I've had with the Labour Party and those in and around the Labour leadership and the things that I've seen even during this recent election campaign,
00:09:47
Speaker
I get the sense that Labour's ambition for Britain is bigger than that.
00:09:51
Speaker
And like us, they're looking at how the world's changing geopolitically, the rise of China, China's relationship with the United States, countries like India, that technological revolution I mentioned before, the climate agenda.
00:10:05
Speaker
And they're saying, rather than just make things better, we're going to transform the country.
00:10:10
Speaker
You just mentioned, Ryan, previously talking about, you know, Keir Starmer's big plans.
00:10:15
Speaker
And I think...
00:10:16
Speaker
most people in the uk would have obviously heard of one perhaps more divisive one around private education so we're just going to ask for your views of opinions on private education and whether you think kira is doing the right thing perhaps by implementing vat on private school fees yeah
00:10:34
Speaker
Well, look, I don't think we should ever stop parents who want to send their kids to private school from sending them to private school.
00:10:40
Speaker
But I don't think this policy does that.
00:10:42
Speaker
I think what it does do is raise some much-needed funds for state schools.
00:10:48
Speaker
And...
00:10:49
Speaker
You can see that in the data, right?
00:10:52
Speaker
If you're a kid who goes to private school, the chances are that you're getting about three times more money spent on you in your education than a kid who goes to state school.
00:11:02
Speaker
And we need to be more ambitious for the next generation in Britain.
00:11:07
Speaker
My personal view on private schools
00:11:09
Speaker
So I've said before, I think parents should have the choice of sending their kids to it.
00:11:13
Speaker
I am very proudly state educated.
00:11:16
Speaker
I'm part of the 93%, and there's an organisation called the 93% Club, which any state educated kids should check out because it's recognised that there is actually an inherent problem in British society, which is what we sometimes call in wonky circles social mobility, that it's not just about...
00:11:37
Speaker
being state educators and what grades you get.
00:11:41
Speaker
It's then what impact that has on your chances of getting into the university of your first choice, if that's what you decide to go through, or getting a high level apprenticeship.
00:11:51
Speaker
And then it carries on when you go into your job and your business.
00:11:56
Speaker
And one of the things I found in my career is that I'm seemingly feel a lot better
00:12:03
Speaker
I'm sometimes surprised that only 7% of the population goes to private school when I look around because it seems to be a lot more people who are privately educated.
00:12:12
Speaker
And you know what?
00:12:13
Speaker
Some of these people are really good friends of mine.
00:12:15
Speaker
and they can be intelligent, smart, confident, they're able to debate, and they've got a good network.
00:12:23
Speaker
Now, those five things, they are all things that we should be aspiring to for kids, whatever their background to have.
00:12:31
Speaker
And what I would love to see from the next government
00:12:35
Speaker
It's not just raising some much needed funds for our state schools to improve the quality of education there, but also thinking more holistically about what it is that makes private school kids so successful when they go into the world of work and pursue other opportunities and invest in our next generation to level them up.
00:12:54
Speaker
You know, a national mentorship scheme, for example, I'd love to give my time.
00:12:59
Speaker
to kids who want to go and work in policy and politics.
00:13:03
Speaker
That helps on the network side.
00:13:06
Speaker
Debate clubs in schools.
00:13:08
Speaker
Kids talk about every kid having the opportunity to learn a musical instrument.
00:13:12
Speaker
I think about in my school, how many brilliant drummers, violinists, guitarists were in that school who just never got the opportunity to explore that talent.
00:13:22
Speaker
So that's where my view on education and private education goes.
00:13:26
Speaker
The
00:13:27
Speaker
We should aspire for our kids to be the best whatever school they go to.
00:13:32
Speaker
That does require investment, but I think it also requires quite innovative policymaking.
00:13:38
Speaker
And there's one final thing I'd say on this, which is technology.
00:13:41
Speaker
And I think technology and education gives us, for the first time ever, the tools, the policies that will enable us to break that link between how much money is spent in a school
00:13:57
Speaker
and where that school is located.
00:14:00
Speaker
So funding and geography, to break that link between those two things with the quality of education.
00:14:08
Speaker
Things like an AI tutor for every kid, these are within our grasp, but we just need our politicians to really grab hold of them and lean into them.
00:14:18
Speaker
I mean, I can definitely see where you're coming from there, because I think wherever you stand in this debate, there's one thing that everyone will agree with, and that is that...
00:14:26
Speaker
the level of state education should definitely be raised to that level of private education because simply it's not effectively right that perhaps someone in a state school isn't having as good an education as someone in a private school.
Debate on VAT and Education Quality
00:14:40
Speaker
I think personally for me and from a lot of reading I've done on the issue, there's a lot of things of sort of Kia trying to do almost class warfare.
00:14:49
Speaker
you see a lot of, and attacks on aspiration.
00:14:52
Speaker
And I can definitely see why some would think this, because he is targeting a certain section of society.
00:15:01
Speaker
And also perhaps, in my opinion, he doesn't totally realise that it's not just the upper class in society that send their kids to private schools.
00:15:10
Speaker
But you've also got a large middle class who are scrimping and saving every penny they have to be able to offer their children this opportunity.
00:15:18
Speaker
So I think there's two sides to it.
00:15:20
Speaker
One, it's perhaps an aspiration, and it can be viewed as class warfare.
00:15:25
Speaker
But then, as you said, I definitely think the level of state education needs to be raised, because in a democratic society, everyone should have the same opportunities when they leave university.
00:15:38
Speaker
Look, I think that is a well-put-together analysis, John.
00:15:44
Speaker
What I would say is that I...
00:15:47
Speaker
I don't think this is a level and down argument.
00:15:49
Speaker
I don't think what Keir is saying is that we need to remove privilege from society and therefore we need to, everyone should have the same standard of education.
00:16:01
Speaker
I think it's more of a level and up argument, which is how do we get our kids to be the best educated?
00:16:07
Speaker
And you've got to ask yourself the question.
00:16:09
Speaker
Why are those middle class parents who don't necessarily have the disposable income because it's expensive, it could be a massive drain on their household finances.
00:16:16
Speaker
Why are they choosing to send their kids to the private schools?
00:16:21
Speaker
And I think there's two answers.
00:16:22
Speaker
One, because let's be blunt, the quality of education is better because it's more funding, right?
00:16:31
Speaker
So let's put that to one side.
00:16:33
Speaker
And then I think the second point, which doesn't necessarily motivate everyone, but...
00:16:38
Speaker
I think some folk will go through this for progress.
00:16:42
Speaker
It's going to give their child an advantage after school as well.
00:16:48
Speaker
And I think if you take those two challenges, and I think they are challenges for the society that we both want to see, which is an aspirational one, but not just a name, one where you can achieve your aspirations regardless of your background.
00:17:02
Speaker
If we put those two things front and centre for our education policy, I think that pushes into a really interesting space.
00:17:08
Speaker
And I think we will start to see this from Keira and Bridget, which is, I
00:17:13
Speaker
and educate a school system which prides quality and that's where yes investment has a big role to play and is necessary but that's also where you can get excited about things like technology and then the advantage later on in life that i don't think this is about how do we stop
00:17:31
Speaker
well-educated private school kids getting top jobs.
00:17:35
Speaker
But I think it is about how do we have a tranche of well-educated state school kids who can also go into those top jobs as well.
00:17:44
Speaker
And a recognition, really important,
00:17:47
Speaker
that there's not a set pie which is divided up between the classes or the rich and the poor, but actually the pie, which is the economy, can grow.
00:18:01
Speaker
And that's the thing it hasn't done.
00:18:02
Speaker
And the more that we empower and enable the next generation to unlock their talents, to go on and do great things in their jobs and their careers,
00:18:13
Speaker
or in the culture, the bigger that pie gets and the better that is for the country.
00:18:18
Speaker
And I also think the better it is for all of the individuals involved.
00:18:21
Speaker
And if we were having this conversation in 20 years time and we look back and say, God, the number of kids in private schools fell and you tell me that fell just because of the VAT rise, I think I'd be disappointed.
00:18:34
Speaker
But if you were to say that fell because parents started to choose to send their kids to an ever-growing number of excellent state schools, I think we'd both be very, very happy with that outcome.
00:18:45
Speaker
And I think that's where the Labour Party is trying to go to.
00:18:49
Speaker
Yeah, definitely.
00:18:50
Speaker
But it's really just levelling up for that future.
00:18:53
Speaker
Yeah, we hope and we've got to be careful that it doesn't come across as class warfare because that is one of the challenges of being in a political debate, right?
00:19:02
Speaker
And having studied the policy and the speeches made by Bridget Phillips and others, and also if you look at Keir Starmer's background and trajectory himself, I don't think it is class warfare.
00:19:15
Speaker
Now, don't get me wrong, there will be people in the Labour Party who want to make it class warfare.
00:19:18
Speaker
I mean, that is a problem and something that we want to avoid, because that is not good politics.
00:19:23
Speaker
Hey, so moving on as well to another of Keir's, well, not Keir's actually, Rishi's policies, but one that Keir has opposed, national service.
00:19:32
Speaker
You know, it's a big idea that Rishi's sort of put in place for this election, perhaps to get more votes.
00:19:38
Speaker
Well, yes, to get more votes.
Rishi Sunak's National Service Policy
00:19:40
Speaker
And for listeners who don't know, it's that 18-year-olds would have to do either a year of military service or one weekend a month of volunteering.
00:19:48
Speaker
So Ryan, where do you stand in this?
00:19:50
Speaker
Because I personally think it's a great ideological idea, but that can't really be achieved by Rishi.
00:19:56
Speaker
So what do you think?
00:19:58
Speaker
Yeah, I think for me, I do think we need to do more in order to build or rebuild the fabric of society.
00:20:10
Speaker
I think we become an increasingly individualised society.
00:20:13
Speaker
culture and country.
00:20:16
Speaker
And the more that we can do to bring people together, the better.
00:20:18
Speaker
And I personally benefited from this in the past.
00:20:20
Speaker
I volunteered every Monday and Thursday and the occasional weekend.
00:20:25
Speaker
I was in the air cadets, in the air training corps.
00:20:27
Speaker
And I did that for five years.
00:20:29
Speaker
And I was flying planes.
00:20:32
Speaker
I was firing rifles on a shooting range, not our people.
00:20:38
Speaker
I was doing drill, doing sports.
00:20:42
Speaker
And it was great.
00:20:43
Speaker
And to this day, I still don't know what made me want to go and become an air cadet.
00:20:48
Speaker
But it was a fantastic decision.
00:20:51
Speaker
I can trace back things that I'm doing now to what I learned during that time.
00:20:57
Speaker
And so on the one hand, the more that people have access to that, the better.
00:21:04
Speaker
And I mean, I like the aspiration of the policy, which is,
00:21:12
Speaker
volunteering side i do think we have to think about how we make sure people are doing it and this is where the policy falls a little bit short what does mandatory mean how do you make something mandatory how do you tie it to incentives and look i don't think that makes it a bad policy i think it's just a a question that remains unanswered and for me there's a way that you could get it right which is
00:21:42
Speaker
Young people are just troublemakers and problems and individuals who stay at home, gaming or going on social media.
00:21:50
Speaker
They're not.
00:21:52
Speaker
They're also talents and people who need to come together and explore and think what want to.
00:21:58
Speaker
So there's a driver there.
00:22:00
Speaker
But I also think there is a raw deal for young people today.
00:22:07
Speaker
It's never been more difficult to get on the housing ladder.
00:22:11
Speaker
I think education has never been more expensive.
00:22:15
Speaker
And you also see problems around
00:22:21
Speaker
cost of living, antisocial behaviour, mental health, even NHS waiting lists and the impact that has on children.
00:22:29
Speaker
It's not an easy society to grow up in.
00:22:33
Speaker
And so I don't think we just want to beat young people into submission, forcing them to volunteer in the communities or in the military.
00:22:42
Speaker
Instead, I'd love to see some incentives.
00:22:45
Speaker
And when I was in sixth form, when I was doing my A-levels, I used to get paid 30 quid a week to attend school through educational maintenance allowance.
00:22:55
Speaker
I'm not saying that we got the money to go around to do that, but I would certainly love to see more thought given to what is the incentive, what do young people get out of this?
00:23:04
Speaker
And I think that is a really fertile interest and space.
00:23:08
Speaker
So, look, I agree certainly on the community volunteering side of the policy.
00:23:13
Speaker
I think it's a good ambition, and we should be encouraging and creating systems that allow young people to do that.
00:23:20
Speaker
But I think we need to think a little bit more about the incentives that go with that.
00:23:25
Speaker
On the military side, by the way, it's a whole big question around the geopolitical world that we're in and the change in face of security.
00:23:33
Speaker
And I think there is a reality that the world is more insecure than it's ever been.
00:23:38
Speaker
And I do think we want to see more young people wanting to go into the military.
00:23:43
Speaker
And I think one of the things that the Prime Minister made very, very clear is that the military service won't be mandatory.
00:23:49
Speaker
It will be optional.
00:23:50
Speaker
And I'm supportive of that.
00:23:52
Speaker
I think, again, like I did with the Air Training Corps, the Air Cadets,
00:23:55
Speaker
we should be creating avenues for people to go into the military.
00:23:59
Speaker
And I think that will benefit the country in the long run as well.
00:24:04
Speaker
So supportive, but as ever, and I'd say this as a TBI person, the challenge is in the delivery of this and there's some big questions that still go unanswered.
00:24:14
Speaker
So I was also thinking about, well, how, because there's no penalty at the moment, they're looking at penalties and
00:24:26
Speaker
How do you think there might be... Will there be a penalty if you don't do it?
00:24:29
Speaker
Or will there just not be an incentive?
00:24:31
Speaker
Is it going to be a sort of negative remark?
00:24:35
Speaker
Yeah, I think the bigger question is, will they be in government in order to do it?
00:24:39
Speaker
And that might negate all of this.
00:24:41
Speaker
But in terms of the policy, look, I don't think... It's very evident it's not been thought through fully.
00:24:48
Speaker
I don't think you can have a penalty...
00:24:53
Speaker
Certainly not a financial one for a group in society that aren't necessarily dripping with cash to make them do this.
00:25:04
Speaker
One thing the Prime Minister did say during one of the debates, which I didn't get picked up on that much, but a bit of a throwaway remark, is that it could be tied to things like a driving licence.
00:25:12
Speaker
So if you're 17, 18 and you don't do this, then maybe you're not eligible for your driving licence.
00:25:18
Speaker
And I think that's probably where they were going.
00:25:21
Speaker
But...
00:25:22
Speaker
Speaking candidly, I don't think it's been well thought through.
00:25:25
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with you there.
00:25:26
Speaker
Because I think the main thing is that the enforcement would just be near impossible because it's unfair to see if it's on a financial or a criminal penalty.
00:25:34
Speaker
It's totally unfair for that.
00:25:36
Speaker
But I think, as you said, a key thing they should focus on is expanding things like the Air Cadets or other branches of Cadets, because both me and Diane have done it.
00:25:46
Speaker
Brilliant.
00:25:49
Speaker
we have learned like key skills from doing it.
00:25:51
Speaker
And I think young people, I mean, it doesn't personally interest me, but the skills I've learned from doing like cadets, for example, they've been very beneficial.
00:26:00
Speaker
And I think similar skills could be learned if you join the military.
00:26:04
Speaker
That's why I think any future prime minister has really got to re-incentivise joining the armed forces because not only do we need it in the world we're entering, but also I think it is a great place because I think there's a lot to learn there.
00:26:19
Speaker
I agree.
Should the UK Lower Voting Age to 16?
00:26:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:20
Speaker
And moving on to our last, really, our last chunk, we're talking about young people and politics.
00:26:26
Speaker
So should the voting age be lowered to 16 instead of 18?
00:26:33
Speaker
And, yeah, what's your opinion on this?
00:26:36
Speaker
You just asked me a good question.
00:26:40
Speaker
I don't think that we should lower the voting age to 16.
00:26:45
Speaker
I think instead we should focus on what it is that is...
00:26:50
Speaker
the challenges that are facing 16 and 17 year olds and make sure that governments come up with a policy agenda that says not to that we win their votes, but because there is a desperate need for us as a country to improve the outcomes and prospects and opportunities for that demographic and age group.
00:27:12
Speaker
And I feel like the votes at 16 could be a distraction
00:27:17
Speaker
from that.
00:27:18
Speaker
That said, I am very aware of all of the upsides and there are countries around the world which have introduced VOTAS 16, not many, but a fair few, and they
00:27:32
Speaker
They have seen a rise in voter participation and voter turnout.
00:27:38
Speaker
But what I would say is that if that is your objective, that's your policy objective, how do you get more people to participate in democracy, which I think is really important in a big crisis.
00:27:48
Speaker
I don't think your go-to policy should be voted 16.
00:27:52
Speaker
I think there's a series of measures that need to be implemented before then that could help drive that voter participation.
00:28:01
Speaker
For example, I think we need to make politics much more accessible.
00:28:05
Speaker
And I think political parties need to look at themselves and say, how do we become places where young people want to engage and people more broadly?
00:28:17
Speaker
I think we have to give ourselves a sort of fundamental question as well, is how do we give people something to vote for?
00:28:26
Speaker
And I think one of the features of the upcoming election is that a lot of people won't go to the ballot box.
00:28:32
Speaker
They won't turn out because they don't feel they've got something to vote for, rightly or wrongly.
00:28:37
Speaker
And I think politicians and those in and around politics have got to see that as one of their core aims.
00:28:45
Speaker
And at the heart of that is just restoring trust between political parties.
00:28:51
Speaker
and voters, I think that trust has been shattered for many reasons over the last few years and it's on the floor.
00:28:58
Speaker
It's always been low, but I don't think it's ever been lower than it currently is.
00:29:02
Speaker
And the flip side of all of that is that it can be a really positive thing.
00:29:06
Speaker
Being able to say, what can Britain be?
00:29:09
Speaker
What is the future that's ahead of us?
00:29:11
Speaker
Painting a picture of that and then setting out a really credible way of getting there.
00:29:16
Speaker
I think that will do much more for voter participation than votes at 16.
00:29:23
Speaker
And, you know, I do just think if our political class and governments feel that it takes
00:29:33
Speaker
given the vote to 16-year-olds or to deliver for 16-year-olds, then we've got a problem.
00:29:38
Speaker
We should be doing that anyway.
00:29:40
Speaker
Our policy agenda, and I think in part it does, should be speaking to the
00:29:47
Speaker
challenges and opportunities ahead of our young, ahead of our next generation.
00:29:51
Speaker
I mean, the only thing I can really say to oppose you there, Ryan, would be that as perhaps it is the least represented age group in politics, the youth, would perhaps having the voting age at 16 increase its sort of youth participation in politics?
00:30:06
Speaker
But then, as you did say, and the biggest reason for me why it shouldn't be, is that when I think of becoming an adult, I think of the age of 18.
00:30:15
Speaker
Because, you know, the age where, you know, around the age where you can drive a car, age you can get a loan, a credit card.
00:30:22
Speaker
And you do sort of slightly just shift that, like wrongly sort of shape that if you lower the voting age to 16.
00:30:30
Speaker
Because voting is sort of part of becoming almost an adult.
00:30:34
Speaker
Because an adult, sort of as a young person, especially if you, that's when you're a sort of fully educated, perhaps member of society.
00:30:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:41
Speaker
Participates in all sort of the realms of the world.
00:30:45
Speaker
Yeah, look, I think it's a really good point around the representation in Parliament of young people.
00:30:55
Speaker
What I would say to that is there are only 650 MPs, right?
00:31:00
Speaker
And we've got to be careful that we don't find ourselves in a situation where we feel that every single characteristic and age group needs to be represented because there'll always be someone then who isn't.
00:31:11
Speaker
And that's a real challenge.
00:31:13
Speaker
Should we strive for Parliament to be more reflective of the country?
00:31:16
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:31:18
Speaker
Can that be a perfect science?
00:31:20
Speaker
No way.
00:31:21
Speaker
And...
00:31:24
Speaker
If young people don't feel like their voices are being heard, then I think that is on politicians to address that.
00:31:31
Speaker
And they should be doing that because they're focused on the future of the country and they see what I see, which is 16 year olds being absolutely critical to that.
00:31:41
Speaker
And also they see the challenges that group faces and they should therefore want to address it.
00:31:46
Speaker
And I think a lot of politicians actually do for their credit rather than just seeing it as a, how do I get their votes?
00:31:56
Speaker
Which often creates more division in society between groups than
Advice for Young Political Engagement
00:32:02
Speaker
cohesion.
00:32:02
Speaker
Whereas the future of Britain, the future of the country and the policy agenda to get us there, that is something that can bring people together.
00:32:10
Speaker
Yeah, so our audience is mostly young people.
00:32:14
Speaker
So if you could give one piece of advice to young people on how they could get more.
00:32:20
Speaker
Yes, I know, and John knows as well, we're talking to our friends sometimes, and there's people who don't know that the Labour Party is left-wing and the Conservatives are right-wing, which is a bit worrying.
00:32:31
Speaker
So how would you...
00:32:33
Speaker
How would you say one piece of advice for teenagers to get more involved, more engaged and more knowledgeable with politics?
00:32:41
Speaker
Yeah, I'm going to give something a bit more theoretical and practical, which is be political.
00:32:47
Speaker
And I say this every time I stand up in front of a group of young people.
00:32:53
Speaker
And I've started to now say to people who are decades into their career and operate the highest level in business, because
00:33:02
Speaker
I think the world that we're in is so politically charged and everything can be traced back to politics.
00:33:09
Speaker
And I've always taken umbrage and being a little bit questionable of people who say, oh, I'm not into politics.
00:33:19
Speaker
And look, I completely understand why you'd be put off from Westminster and party politics.
00:33:27
Speaker
But being political, it's political with a small p. It's recognising that the world around us can all be traced back to political decisions or absence of political decisions.
00:33:41
Speaker
And so it's opening your eyes to that.
00:33:43
Speaker
Things like social media or football or even this podcast and the software we're using all trace back to politics.
00:33:53
Speaker
So it's that.
00:33:54
Speaker
And then it's also giving yourself permission to think.
00:33:59
Speaker
And this sounds a little bit silly, right?
00:34:02
Speaker
But when I look back when I was 16, the thing that I wanted to do more than anything was just fit in and not be noticed.
00:34:09
Speaker
And then when I went to university, when I first met Tony Blair,
00:34:18
Speaker
One of the things that sort of happened, a bit of shock therapy, was I started to feel like I had to think about what do I want the country to be?
00:34:26
Speaker
What do I think is going wrong?
00:34:28
Speaker
Where are the opportunities?
00:34:29
Speaker
And even if you just ask yourselves those three questions as a young person and think that will give you a massive advantage, not just in being more political, but I also think in navigating the world of education, work and big P politics.
00:34:47
Speaker
Be political.
00:34:49
Speaker
Give yourself permission and the time to think and think about what you want your future to be, your country's future to be.
00:34:59
Speaker
And don't just let these be the preserve of those at the higher echelons of political parties.
00:35:06
Speaker
Everyone has permission to do that.
00:35:09
Speaker
But sometimes we may just need to remind ourselves of that.
00:35:12
Speaker
Well, thank you very much, Ryan, for giving us the time.
00:35:15
Speaker
I know we know you're a very busy man.
00:35:18
Speaker
And thank you for being really the first big guest on the Debatable Discussions podcast.
00:35:25
Speaker
Yes, thank you for coming on as well, because it's been great to hear from you and get, you know, a new and fresh and different perspective to what we usually have.
00:35:33
Speaker
Well, look, you guys have done a great job.
00:35:35
Speaker
There's a bright future ahead of you in politics.
00:35:38
Speaker
The question you've got to ask yourselves is, do you want to be the ones asking the difficult questions or answering the difficult questions?
00:35:44
Speaker
From what I've seen today, I think you could choose to do either.
00:35:48
Speaker
So really good to chat.
00:35:49
Speaker
Really enjoyed it.
00:35:51
Speaker
And if anyone wants to get in touch, find me on LinkedIn or Google and drop me a message.
00:35:56
Speaker
Thank you.
00:35:58
Speaker
Thank you very much.
00:35:59
Speaker
And we look forward to welcoming you to our next episode, which will be just after the election, discussing the results.