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The Green Hornet (2011)
340 Plays2 years ago
For the 150th episode, Perry is joined by the show's first guest, Adam Lance Garcia, to discuss the 2011 Green Hornet film. Divisive among fans when it came out and poorly received by critics, we discuss what went wrong with this movie and what aspects surprisingly work.
Listen to The Green Lama audio drama on Apple Podcasts and pre-order From a Certain Point of View: Return of the Jedi featuring a story by Adam.
Want to tell us what you think? Have any questions or comments for Perry about superheroes in media or comics? Leave a voice message to play on the show. You can also apply to be a guest on the show.
Patrons get to listen to episodes before everyone else and they also get access to my exclusive companion podcast, the Superhero Cinephiles Book Club. If you want to join in, please consider supporting us through Patreon!
This episode is brought to you by BlendJet. Use my special link, zen.ai/supercinemapod12, to save 12% at blendjet.com. The discount will be applied at checkout!
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Transcript
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00:00:00
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Speaker
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00:01:59
Speaker
Whoa!
Humorous Debate: Gas Gun
00:02:00
Speaker
What the hell is this? It's a gas gun. Your Hornet gun. A gas gun? Yeah. Why not a gun gun? Our enemies have gun guns. I don't understand. What are these? What is this? What are these? These paintballs? No, inside these knockout gas. That's insane. Where's yours? Do you have one? Do you have a black version of it or something? No, just you.
00:02:26
Speaker
Well, why not? Why just me? You are so special. I know I'm special, but how come I'm the only one with a gun? Because you don't have much fighting experience, so I thought you needed a gun. Well, I'll be honest. That's a little insulting, man. I mean, I thought we were both badasses the other night. I kicked that guy in the face like three times. Remember? I kicked him in the face. Yeah, I remember. Yeah.
00:02:48
Speaker
It makes you look cool. I need to look cool now? What the hell? You said my outfit was pimp. I remember even thinking, that's a weird word for him to use, pimp. But you said it. You said it was pimp. It is pimp. Yeah. The horny guy is just an accessory. An accessory? Yeah. Well, then you need, uh, you need nunchucks, then. If you don't like it, don't use it. No, I mean, how does it work? Shit! It works.
150th Episode Celebration
00:03:16
Speaker
Welcome to the 150th episode of the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine, and bringing back a returning guest. And I swear to not plan this, it just ended up happening coincidentally. But Adam Lance-Garcia, who's probably the most frequent guest, is now here for the 150th episode. Adam, how you doing?
00:03:36
Speaker
I'm honored. I did not know this was the 150th episode. I'm very happy to be here. This is exciting. I did not know either. I honestly did not. Because we had been talking about you coming back on and you'd been busy with a lot of stuff because you're a busy guy these days. And we'll talk a little bit about that in a minute. And it just so happened that the time you scheduled, and I'm looking at the episode lists and everything, I'm like, oh, wow, that's going to be 150. OK, nice.
00:04:04
Speaker
Also, I'm impressed that you've done 150 episodes. That is no small feat. I did eight episodes of an audio drama podcast and I was just like, all right, I'm taking two years off and you've done 150. Good Lord.
00:04:19
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, it's surprising. It's even more, it blows me a waste too because the only reason this podcast exists is so I could have an excuse to talk to Derek every week. And we'd done 60 episodes together and then he passed away. And now it's crazy to me to think that I've done more episodes solo than I did with him. That is insane. Yeah. Oh, Derek, man. I know we talked about him the first time I was on, but like he was such a good guy.
00:04:49
Speaker
And I always think about how, as a young writer coming up, he was so supportive and so kind. And that goes a long way. You don't forget the people. I mean, you don't forget the people who support you. You'll never forget the people who tell you you will never succeed. But the people who support you, those are the ones that
00:05:13
Speaker
they last and they matter because they say, like, hey, you can do it. And Derek was always that guy. Yeah, he is so sorely missed. Yeah, it's kind of nuts, man, that 90 episodes since then, you monster. Yeah. Well, it goes down to the listeners, too, because after he passed away, I asked them, you know, what do you think I should do? Should I continue it? And they're like, yeah, you should keep it going. I think he would want you to keep it going.
00:05:41
Speaker
So I kept it going for that. And I think it is fitting to talk about him a little bit on the 150th episode, so absolutely. And I go back and forth and I listen to some of those old episodes we did together. And I'm glad that we have that record, too. So I can go back and I can go back and revisit those episodes and revisit those conversations. So that's one of the nice things about it, too. Yeah.
00:06:07
Speaker
I mean, it's also interesting because in the movie that we're going to talk about, there was a conversation that he and I had about it, not necessarily over voice, but in text. And we'll talk about it more when we get there, but it does seem very fitting to kind of remember the man who helped start this journey that you are on.
00:06:29
Speaker
Yeah, I had, um, I've been trying to find out if he had done, uh, I was just searching right now, see if he had done a review of this on his website, because his movie review website is still up, but it doesn't look like he does. But he did do, um, on his old podcast, Better in the Dark, episode 99, they had talked about that, that, um,
00:06:48
Speaker
that this movie Green Hornet. So that was I believe he there was myself, Derek and Ron Fortier, who did three reviews, I believe for God, what was the name of the blog at the time?
00:07:08
Speaker
It was Sorella Smith who was going by Tommy Hancock at the time. It was their website. I don't know if she still has it up, but it's, yeah, the whole thinking is, and we're kind of spying on the movie that we're going to be talking about, but we're talking about our three very different reactions to the 2011 film, The Green Hornet.
00:07:32
Speaker
Yeah, I know I because I but at the fourth stage, that's not on his website. And that's us. And I know he had done a review because I know I remember reading it at some point. So that's why I was trying to look for it just now. But even just a Google search result for Derek Ferguson, Green Hornet didn't turn up anything. So if anyone knows if that if that blog is still alive, send me a message, send me the link to the review. And I'd be happy to include it in the in the show notes for this episode.
00:08:00
Speaker
But before we get too deep into that, let's talk about what you've been up to because
Adam Lance-Garcia on Writing for Star Wars
00:08:07
Speaker
to you are going to be writing a Star Wars for some reason. Oh, I let you do it. I've written a Star Wars. It is going to be published. What I mean, it is going to be published coming out. Yes. So what's great about this is what what's really exciting for me and talking to you very, because you and I sort of started off and the the pulp community
00:08:32
Speaker
early on in our careers. So, you know, I remember you when, but I've always, since I started writing, wanted to write a Star Wars. And last year I got a really great email from Elizabeth Shaffer at Delray. And it was just, do you want to write a Star War? And I'm really glad that I was kneeling down at the time because I would have fallen down.
00:08:59
Speaker
I I'm I wrote a short story for the upcoming anthology Star Wars from a certain point of view Return of the Jedi it is for the 40th anniversary Which is amazing because it's also my 40th year on this earth so it all kind of syncs up but the idea is
00:09:20
Speaker
It's retelling the events of Return of the Jedi from different points of view, from characters both within the film and within Star Wars canon. And I knew exactly who I wanted to tell, because I knew the anthology was coming out. They had done Empire Strikes Back. They had done Star Wars and New Hope. So I knew it was coming, and I was really crossing my fingers that it would happen.
00:09:49
Speaker
apparently both Lucasfilm and Del Rey wanted me to be a part of this anthology and I can't yet reveal who it is unless this is coming out later this year. I have no idea when this episode is coming out, so I'm not gonna. No, no, this will probably be coming out, I think.
00:10:09
Speaker
either late April or early May, but I'm not sure exactly what the timeline is for that. And also, even though it won't be released, they have web crawlers and stuff that go around, because I noticed that even though the episode's not released, it says like, you know, five plays or something like this. So yeah, better not to spill anything. Or better, yeah. It's better to run this. So yeah, so while I can't reveal who the character is or when this story takes place,
00:10:39
Speaker
I can say that it's a character that I don't think anyone's going to expect. It is a character that I chose because I found a way to say something with them, things that spoke to both the in-universe stuff and stuff that we have all gone through in the real world.
00:11:06
Speaker
They, it was due in this, they, I think they hired me in August or they offered me in August. I immediately have wrote the pitch like within an hour and they're like, okay, great. Like a couple of days later, it's like approved. Great. Go ahead.
00:11:21
Speaker
It's due by December. I got it to them in October. And if anyone knows me, I'm not the fastest writer, but that's the fastest I've ever written anything in my life. And my girlfriend was like, I've never seen you write this fast. I'm like, I've been waiting 40 years for this. It is really exciting. I really can't wait to talk more about it. Like I said before, writing a Star Wars was the reason I started writing. So this is all just a dream come true.
00:11:51
Speaker
Yeah, September 5th comes out 2023. Awesome. Well, then you're listening to the future. We'll have to have you back up on when you can't can talk a little bit more about it and you can tell people a little bit more about what's going on. So we'll mark that down. So trust me, try to stop me talking about it. So, but shut up about it. But I think the big question everyone has on Twitter about this is Adam finally going to be canon?
00:12:20
Speaker
So the question of the canonicity of this in Star Wars is a little loose. It is, as Elizabeth, my editor, once put for the other ones, is canon adjacent. But it's kind of...
00:12:39
Speaker
You know, it is canon until proven otherwise. So Adam is canon until, you know, the Mandalorian says it didn't happen. Or JJ Abrams decides to make a new movie. Yeah, that well, that well, one of those things won't happen. So I yeah, it's it is it is canon. If you want it to be canon, it is closer to canon than
00:13:08
Speaker
some of the old legends books or EU or from when we were growing up. You know, it is about a character's point of view. So they're seeing these events from this point of view. But I worked very, very hard to make sure that it
00:13:26
Speaker
fits into every established can, like all canon that they've released right now, that it fits into that canon, like even like stray lines from other books or things. I'm like, all right, how do I fit that into this story? And it was actually really interesting.
00:13:43
Speaker
What I found is the more cannon I butted up against, the better the story became because you're like, oh, well, I have this box to think inside. What is that? How do I take that event that's true and make it relevant to this character? The one thing I was I mean, I'm sorry, I know I'm going really deep in this. No, no, no problem.
00:14:05
Speaker
Yeah, so the most interesting thing about writing the story was sort of avoiding fan service, not just like fan service for the fans, but my own sort of personal fan service, things that meant something to me, like references to the first Star Wars book I read, the glove of Darth Vader or or really random things. What it was a big exercise in was like, what is true for the character? What is true for the universe? What will say more about this?
00:14:31
Speaker
just sort of learning everything I could with the era and this character and then ignoring it all and just focusing on what was true for him or her in this moment.
00:14:46
Speaker
and on this place at this time. It was really, it was a really interesting example of like avoiding sort of like, let's give the fans what they want. It's like, what is true for the character? What is true for the story? And what will mean the most? Whether I succeeded or not will be remain to be seen, but it was something that I was really
00:15:07
Speaker
I think, again, speaking to where we were when we first started writing, it was a maturity of
Balancing Life: Work, Media, and Family
00:15:13
Speaker
storytelling that I think if I had gotten this opportunity 10 years ago, I would have not been able to do. I would have been like, let's give the fans what they want. Let's have an action scene, and this, and this, and this, and it became a lot more somber and internal of a story.
00:15:31
Speaker
You know, I have to say that one is better than the other, but I think it's more about like where I am now. It's like I'd really rather tell a story that has more emotion where I think I would have written something a lot more action based and something that winked and nudged the audience more than what I did in this book. And then obviously out of context, context, none of this means anything, but we'll see. We'll see. We'll see what happens.
00:15:57
Speaker
OK, good, awesome. And so it's coming out in September and and you said it's September 5th. Is it up for a preorder yet or no? Oh, yeah. Yes, it is up for preorder. So we'll have a link to the preorder page in on Amazon on the in the show notes then for that. Congratulations, man, that is so cool. That is so cool. Have you gotten any sort of feedback about any other possible future stuff you might be able to do for them or can't say yet or what?
00:16:28
Speaker
No comment. No comment, okay. So that's a good side then, because that means it's not no. But anyway, let's move on then, and nothing to talk about. Yeah.
00:16:51
Speaker
All right, so let's move on then. And another thing I like to do now is ask people, what are they into lately? What kind of stuff has been grabbing your interest right now? Comics, movies, TV, anything?
00:17:04
Speaker
man, what's been, I am binging the new girl, new girl, which is something that I never thought I'd say I'm having a great time. It's been weird. I, I'm reading right now. Well, I'm actually, it's called the spare man by Mary Robin a call. I'm mispronouncing that. But it's very good. It's a murder mystery and a cruise ship in space. I'm still listening to a lot of audio drama, lots of Dr. Who audio drama. Obviously, I'm
00:17:32
Speaker
reading and researching a lot of Star Wars. And what am I watching these days? I've seen so many movies. I see so many movies. So my day job is I'm a creative producer.
00:17:46
Speaker
director for Connie Nass and I do a lot of interviews for celebrities. It's a dumb job. It's so dumb. It's so great. But like I watch a ton of movies and TV shows like I binge watched so much Helen Mirren recently for an interview that didn't happen. And then I watched a ton of Tony Collette stuff for an interview that did happen.
00:18:10
Speaker
Um, so I have no idea what I watch anymore. I, I'm so, I like, I like Bob's burgers. That's something that I watch when I'm like trying to fall asleep because it's relaxing. Um, I'm going to be seeing, uh, the new Ari Aster film, which I'm terrified about because I horror films upset me and they make me sad because everyone's dying. Um,
00:18:31
Speaker
I, uh, God, what else have I seen? I saw John Wick four. That was great. I liked Shazam two. Um, what else have I seen recently? I'm going to see dungeon dragons next this week. Uh, I just, I am ice. I consume so much media Perry. I it's all the time nonstop. It is my, I mean, look, it sounds like I make it sound like worse than it is, but like, it's my job. Uh, so it's like, there's this weird, like,
00:18:56
Speaker
This is great. I just like today was great. It was sunny and 61 degrees in in New York. And I sat outside and I read a book and it was quiet. That was wonderful. Oh, I'm playing a death loop. Death loop is really good. That's a fun game. Really good time. Terrible mechanics. I'm really big in it.
00:19:19
Speaker
Yeah, I'm just a rambling mess tonight. I am so tired. You have children. I do not understand how you are alive.
00:19:29
Speaker
I am not in that place. So anyway, yeah. I don't understand it either. Because I was like, just as one example, last night, because usually I'll when the kids go to sleep and everything, I'll watch something. And then last thing I'll do before I'll like read a comic, read some comics for like an hour, half an hour or so before I go to sleep. And so I was doing that last night and I finished. It was the second book in the most recent Batman and the Outsiders series.
00:19:57
Speaker
just finished it. And then I'm thinking like, all right, I'm about to go to bed. And then as soon as like I turn off my music, my background music on Spotify, I hear footsteps coming down and it's Elena and it's like two o'clock in the morning. Like, what are you doing up? And so she comes, she sits on and she wants to sit next to me. So I put on some I put on episode scrubs me both lay down and fall asleep on the couch that way. But that's the kind of stuff. And then Phillip wakes me up at like, you know, six o'clock, seven o'clock in the morning.
00:20:29
Speaker
See, it's crazy. We were talking off mic about my exercise program lately and how the trainer said, well, let's see if we can get you four times a week. And I'm just like, how the hell do people do it? It's just impossible.
00:20:44
Speaker
I honestly don't know how people with children do anything like I, I, I love kids, I may or may not have them one day. But you know, I approach like hanging out with my friends with kids in a very understanding one like, Hey, like I have a friend who like lives basically 20 minute walk from me. And I'm like, Hey, it's gonna be sunny tomorrow. Do you want to hang out? And he's like,
00:21:09
Speaker
maybe it depends on the kids. I'm like, no worries, no stress. Because yeah, they are the number one thing you need to be worried about. So I'm...
00:21:19
Speaker
I'm always, I'm in awe of what you are capable of doing. The fact that you don't do so much, and we were talking off mic about all the things you do, that you were able to do all those things, including like even shower with two children is a miracle. So you should be very proud of yourself. I'm very proud of you. The shower thing sometimes, especially when I don't have to go to, when I don't have to go over to campus or anything, the shower thing takes a backseat actually, to be honest. It's just like, what was the last time I showered? Two days ago.
00:21:48
Speaker
It's okay. It's all right. Yeah. And a friend of mine, he was, yeah, he was like saying that like he, he just had, he was like a newborn and a one year old. And he's like, I haven't showered in days. I have no idea what I'm doing. I've been wearing like this just vomit covering my shirt. I'm just, I just don't even care anymore. I'm like, yep, that sounds like children.
00:22:10
Speaker
Yeah. Two of my friends, they live in Tokyo, but the husband, he owns a bar out here, about like a 30-minute train ride away from where I live.
00:22:23
Speaker
And he comes back and forth a lot, and he's always sending me stuff on Facebook. He's like, hey, we're doing this and this at the bar this weekend. This past weekend, he's like, oh, it's my wife's birthday. She's coming down to Tokyo. I'm like, all right, so I should go out for this. I'm like, OK, so what are the plans? And he says, OK, so we're going to have a party at the bar on Saturday night, and then Sunday afternoon, we're going to go out to a barbecue. And I'm just like, I can do one of those things. I can't do one.
00:22:50
Speaker
So, and even so, it was just like, okay, 1130.
Parenting and Social Life Challenges
00:22:54
Speaker
I gotta go catch the last train back home and they're going out to like the second, the after party and all that. And I just know they're probably out until like three o'clock in the morning. Yeah, I had a party, a birthday party a couple of weeks ago. My girlfriend surprised me. It was wonderful. But like, I was one of only like two people who didn't have kids. And they were like, all right, we're leaving now. It was like 10 o'clock.
00:23:19
Speaker
Dude, I get it. I always remember my friend who, before he had kids, I'm gonna do a terrible Australian accent. He was like, well, I'll have kids. I'm always gonna, like, tell him to see my mites. I have not seen him in two years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sounds about right. I mean, that was a part pandemic. But I was like, I remember, like, we go out to jurings or something. He's like, why is Blanka Blanka not here? We're like, because he's got two kids. And he's like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, no, no, no.
00:23:48
Speaker
he has two kids. And now you know, you know, just God, he was so anyway, you know, the
00:23:56
Speaker
I hate the series finale of How I Met Your Mother, but one of the things that they nailed was when they're all at the bar in the future, and Barney's falling asleep at the table, and it's like, we're going out late today. He's like, 9.30. Yeah, that's about what it is. For my part, when I got into The White Lotus,
00:24:20
Speaker
and because I had seen people talking about it and I'm not and trying to consume as much stuff on HBO Max while I still have the subscription because I think I'm going to cancel it now that they're taking so much stuff I like off of it. I think I'm going to save until the end of Titans and Doom Patrol and then I'm going to that accent but.
00:24:38
Speaker
But, um, White Lotus, I just gave it a try because I heard people talking about it. And so I'm like, all right, let me, let me give this a try. And I watched the first season over the course of like a week. I'm like, Oh, that was pretty good. And then the second season I binged in like two days. It was so good. Yeah, it's just, it was surprisingly captivating. I was, I did not expect to like it as much as I did, but it was, it was so good.
00:25:02
Speaker
Um, and now they said that the third season is apparently going to be in Japan too. So I'm really looking forward to that. Yeah. One thing that I always like in my question about like white Lotus is the same thing with succession. It's like, I really, I hear they're good. It's like, there's so many shows actually right now that are out white Lotus succession last of us. Um, and a few others that everyone's just like, it's so good. I wish stress the entire time. I'm like, that is.
00:25:32
Speaker
That is the last thing I need right now. I'm sure it's great. I'm sure it's well-acted. I'm sure it's well-written. I'm sure it's well-produced. I'm sure all the things. But there was one episode of The Last of Us that everyone was talking about. And they're like, I was crying so much at the end. And I'm like, OK, you've actually told me. You gave me the reason why I don't want to watch the show. Not to say that there's nothing
00:26:00
Speaker
I want to be clear, I think it is valid and wonderful that there are shows that can make people feel like that. And that's not to say that I always don't want that, that I don't want to enjoy it, but I think it's weird.
00:26:15
Speaker
especially with Twitter, there's this sense of like, it's either all or nothing. It's like, I can acknowledge that these things are great and well done. Like what lotus looks beautiful. I've heard only good things about it. But it's like, this is not what I show that I actively want to watch right now.
00:26:30
Speaker
And a lot of people take it as like, well, why don't you like good things? I'm like, why are you making it? I don't like it. I just don't want to watch it right now or ever. It might not be what I want to watch. It's like, do you know how much content there is? Like I'm like, I'm really enjoying the Star Trek Picard. Like that's a fun show, but also it's like the kind of stress that I'm like.
00:26:52
Speaker
that was fun. You know, like, I love Ted Lasso, because he feels like a warm hug. And that's kind of where I'm at right now. I mean, mind you, like one of my favorite shows is Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul and they're like the most stressful fucking shows you've ever seen in your life.
00:27:09
Speaker
But yeah, I feel like I want, I want to make that distinction of like, I don't think they're bad, but I just don't want to put myself through that right now. No, I totally get that. I mean, like, that's why it's like, you know, I'm, you know, doing a Scrubs rewatch for like the 90th time because it's a fun show and I like, and I like putting it on the background as I'm doing other stuff. And, um, and I will say though, the White Lotus, you know, comparing to the Last of Us or Succession, it is,
00:27:35
Speaker
It's also kind of like heavy content, but it's delivered in a way that's much more light, if that makes sense. Like it's a lot more consumable than, I didn't feel stressful at all watching it. It was just very engaging.
00:27:47
Speaker
Gotcha, yeah, there's also something about like the, like, let's watch all these white people be mean to each other. And I'm like, I don't, I don't, I don't need that right now. Like, oh, great. Like, I'm an America guy. It's like, I got a lot of white people being mean to each other all the time. Thank you. That was another really good, like, well, that's the thing I really liked about the first season, especially, because it's all about like, class and colonialism and like, all this stuff going on in there. And the second season is just all about sex, basically.
00:28:16
Speaker
Uh, but there's some of that class stuff too, but it's basically just all about sex, but it was it was really good. It was really enjoyable And it was weird because on hbo max it's like classified and the first trailer too I saw it seemed like it was partly a comedy, but it's really not so i'm not sure why they classify it like that I yeah, I found out that it's like a murder mystery and I was like I knew that like someone
00:28:41
Speaker
I know that I mean there's a murder in the first episode and then you find out who dies in the last episode, but it's not at all like You don't really care about the murder mystery. It's just more like it's just like the impetus to start it off to like bookend the show Yeah Gotcha. Yeah now and I know who dies in both because I again I wasn't it was like I looked at the show I'm like this looks nice, but it's not something that I'm gonna watch but I try
00:29:06
Speaker
because of the job to be as plugged in on the things that I might need to talk about. Sometimes, much to my detriment, I really did not want to watch 1923, but I watched all of 1923. It's a show. It's your grandma's Game of Thrones.
00:29:29
Speaker
So it's like, I know about who dies and what loses. And again, this is not being disparaging. I'm sure it's done really, really well for all the reasons you've listed, but it's just like, ugh.
00:29:42
Speaker
Do I need to do I want to? No, no, I get that. Yeah. Yeah. It's like I'll watch. I'll watch The Mandalorian and be, you know, watching Grogu and I've been sleeping on that. I got to catch up on that. I've only seen the first episode of the new season so far. I yeah. I mean, have you have you watched and or yet I've halfway.
00:30:04
Speaker
Yeah, finish Andor first. That is that is that what's great about Andor is like it is. I mean, every three episodes is an arc and we're going to get into that rhythm. You kind of get it. But like it is such good television. Like it's the best thing on Disney plus period. Marvel or Star Wars. It's just so well done. It's so well done. It all comes together.
00:30:25
Speaker
Complex characters that like, and also really good legacy characters like Mon Mothma is a perfect example of how you take a legacy character, make them a part of a larger narrative, and it's not just band service, it is this.
00:30:38
Speaker
meaningful story about this in this it's this character just happens to be Mon Mothma. So okay. Yeah. All right. Yeah, I've got to get back into it. And now that I finally finished White Lotus now I can looking for something else to watch. So I'll definitely be checking that out. But anyway, like we mentioned earlier today, we are talking about the the 2011 Green Hornet movie starring Seth Rogen and Jay Chow and
00:31:03
Speaker
I had the idea to do this episode because I think another time when you were on, I think it was the Man of Steel episode. You had mentioned that you're actually a fan of this movie or a defender of it. I can't remember exactly what you had said. I was, yeah. I'm just like, okay. That's stuck in the back of my mind. I remember when you said that, I'm like, really? That movie? Then I'm like, yeah.
00:31:25
Speaker
But we had done this before because a while back we had had Liam Kerrigan on and he came on to talk about the original Power Rangers movie. And he had mentioned also in passing that he's a defender of Superman IV. So I'm like, all right, let's have him back on and let's have him defend Superman IV. And it was interesting to revisit that movie and find some things that I didn't see about it, that I that actually liked about it.
00:31:49
Speaker
and to talk about that. And so I thought it'd be an interesting exercise to do the same thing with the Green Hornet movie because I did not like it when it came out, when I first saw it. But going into it, I was actually
00:32:03
Speaker
very intrigued by it. I'd found out about Seth Rogen and how he'd lost all this weight. And I'm like, oh, it looks like he's taking it pretty seriously. So I was really keen to see what he was going to do with it. And I was disappointed when I saw it, but it was still worth it to go back and revisit, I thought. But anyway, what was your take on it when you first saw it?
00:32:27
Speaker
Well, it was interesting. We sort of insinuated this before, but I remember when it came out, and it was really divisive amongst the sort of pope-author community that you and I were a part of. There were some, like Ron Fortier, who in this blog post just basically said, I refuse to watch it. This is an offense. How dare they? I mean, Ron did write The Green Hornet back for Now Comics back in the day. Now Comics, yeah.
00:32:55
Speaker
Yeah, so he had like a sort of he was invested in that capacity, but it was a very Iran, but also very indicative of a section of the fan base that just like you have to like look at this movie. The only Green Hornet that's correct is my Green Hornet, like just a very, very narrow vision for the character.
00:33:21
Speaker
And there was Derek, who is more open minded to go check it out. And there's me who is more sort of defending the idea that. I think it's a mistake to necessarily say
Green Hornet Movie Discussion
00:33:33
Speaker
that, like, there's only one way you should approach certain characters. I think I always the example I always give is that you have the Adam West Batman, right? That, you know, the fact that the one of the reasons why Batman is such a big
00:33:50
Speaker
part of our zeitgeist, our cultural zeitgeist, is that Batman had this really goofy show that ran for three seasons in the 60s, and it sort of gave you a sort of extreme to go to. Then you can sort of create the extreme of Michael Heaton's Batman, then you have Christopher Nolan's Batman, and then you can have Ben Affleck, and you can have
00:34:20
Speaker
Robert Pattinson. The reason why Batman exists and it has existed for so long is that we have all these really interesting variations of the character. And then an animation you've got like the Brave and the Bold, you've got the Batman the Animated Series, you've got the Batman Animated Series. Yeah. And all that kind of stuff. Like I remember Batman. Exactly. With Batman the Brave and the Bold. Like I remember that coming up. Like you did. Like I was very much in the knowing camp. Like you can't
00:34:47
Speaker
do it's Batman's a serious character, don't be goofy. And then I remember watching Batman the Brave and the Bone be like, I'm wrong. I'm a fun person. This is so much fun. This is such a fun show. I get it now. Like I was like, I get it. Like it allowed me to have this variation of the character and my stance on the Green Hornet just based like even before the film came out, it was like,
00:35:10
Speaker
You know what? Whatever keeps this character alive, do it. Like, let's have a version of this with Seth Rogen be a comedic character. Whereas Ron was like, no, you can't make a comedy. It's not right to make a comedy where I'm just like, you know, let them. It's got it. You got to try. Like the reason the only way you can keep these characters alive is if you're trying different things.
00:35:31
Speaker
I think about it a lot with like even Star Wars or Doctor Who or whatever. I think every sort of major franchise needs a period of like where they're just exploring that they have like a wilderness era that they can sort of figure out what the boundaries are for this franchise. Star Wars had the expanded universe, Doctor Who had the new version of adventures.
00:36:00
Speaker
Now, like you have with Batman, you have the extreme darkness of the Snyder films, which, you know, I don't care for. And if you're listening to our Man of Steel episode, you know that like my sort of like feelings with Man of Steel was like, oh, here's a new version of Superman. We haven't had this version. And now that like we see we saw the sort of the full exploration of of that Superman, I can say like, no, that's not where you want to go. I'm looking forward to James Gunn's Superman because it's like
00:36:25
Speaker
oh what happens when hope isn't cool anymore and you have this guy who's like all about hope like yeah that that's what i'm looking for um you know so it's like the same sort of thing where i'll say like i'm glad even though we and i know we talked about some of the man's deal but so yeah it's like i did not i'm not happy with batman versus superman i think that while the justice league standard cut is better than the than the joss weeden cut
00:36:50
Speaker
you know, I can at least like, I'm glad those exist because now I know like, there's this version here and that version doesn't work for me. But I can know what I do want, I know what I like from this character. So Green Hornet, it's like, we haven't seen this version. And I remember being very, not 100% effusive, but if I remember my, I can probably find it on my computer, my review of it. Probably more effusive about it than I was,
00:37:21
Speaker
Like if I was being, if I, that morphies about it than I am now, because it was sort of in reaction to the, how dare you? How dare you do something different mentality, which I think is restrictive and silly. So yeah, I think I, I remember liking it, not loving it.
00:37:45
Speaker
when I first saw it and now revisiting it literally before we started recording. It's interesting. I think it's interesting in almost less of a superhero story and more of a snapshot of a time when
00:38:06
Speaker
the superhero industrial complex, as it were, was still forming. And how hard it was to find the right, find the right formula for it. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah.
00:38:22
Speaker
No, I get what you're saying, especially with the reaction part, because I've definitely had times like that. I can think back to the Ang Lee Hoek film, or the Daredevil movie, or Superman Returns, where the fan reaction was overwhelmingly negative to those movies. Whereas when I watched, I'm like,
00:38:41
Speaker
I kind of like these. And then after. And then in response to that, I kind of became like the stalwart defender of them because I'm like, because of that reaction to just like how negative the the other side was on it. So yeah, I totally get that, too. What before we dive too deep into the movie, how familiar how tuned into the Green Hornet were you before the movie? Like, could you watch the old show? Are you writing the comics or listening to the radio programs or anything like that?
00:39:09
Speaker
Probably more familiar with it than most cats our age, because my dad grew up with a cereal. So I think I watched some of the cereals as a kid. I watched some of the 60s show as a kid. Is it fresh in my mind? Not really. I mean, obviously I watched the Batman crossover, which is literally like something that will never happen again in live action until someone buys out the Green Hornet, almost like Green Llama.
00:39:35
Speaker
I really want to I really want to write it. I how familiar am I? I really want to write a green llama, green hornet crossover. I have an idea for that. And I have soft pitched it to moonstone a couple of times. I really want to do it as a radio drama. But that's neither here nor there. So I haven't listened to the audio drama, the radio drama. I, you know, I always knew the basic idea. And I think it's a really interesting idea, the idea, the conceit that
00:40:04
Speaker
to be a superhero, they're pretending to be villains. That's a really clever take. And obviously the Bruce Lee of it all. So yeah, I was pretty familiar with it, but not like not encyclopedic. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't have a whole lot of connection to it. I had it was I like vague memories of maybe catching an episode here or there when I was a kid. And then when Kevin Smith was involved, I got I got interested in in it at that point when he came out with the
00:40:33
Speaker
the comic version of his script. And I read that and I'm like, oh, this is pretty good. It's entertaining enough. And then when I started to know Ron, I went back and I tracked down the now comics he did. I read a bunch of those. Those are really good, too. And since then, I've seen a few episodes. In fact, after I watched the movie last night, I went back and I rewatched the first episode of the TV show just to have a better comparison of it and a better
00:40:58
Speaker
And one of the things I thought was really interesting was at this point in time when this movie came out, you've got the very Batman is like the very dark thing with the doing the Nolan stuff. Dark Knight had just come out. Dark Knight Rises was two years down the line.
00:41:14
Speaker
and then you have this very comedic take on the Green Hornet, which is funny because you watch 66 Batman and 66 Green Hornet, which were both produced by William Dozier. And it's like the opposite, where in that one, it's Batman, that's the campy thing and is treated more tongue in cheek. Where's the Green Hornet? It was actually pretty damn serious for 1960. So I thought that was a funny little parallel between the two.
00:41:44
Speaker
So that was kind of like my, so I'm not, again, I don't have a whole lot of history with the Green Hornet. So I wasn't watching it from the perspective of someone who is like, I can't believe they did this to my favorite character type of thing, but it was just more trying to watch it as a movie in its own. And I didn't like it when I first saw it. And then when I watched it last night, there were some things that I can find that are really interesting in it. And then there are other things that I'm just like, I don't know why you're doing this. And so that was kind of, it was just like this mixed bag with it.
00:42:13
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's interesting. It's like I was in just watching it now. I got the sense like this movie was edited within an inch of its life. Like there it was a different movie that I feel like they were trying to do. I think it was not poorly cast because it's a really good cast. But I think it was incorrectly cast like like looking into like who almost played Britt Reid. You're like, oh, that kind of would have been more interesting.
00:42:40
Speaker
I mean, you know, especially knowing Seth Rogen's career since with the boys and all these other sort of comic properties, he knows how to tell superhero stories, stories that sort of like poke that sort of like poke fun at and play with the genre. I feel like.
00:43:03
Speaker
in almost every respect, like everyone involved with this project almost was the wrong person to be involved with this project. Like you could have taken the original script, which, you know, I don't know how much of that actually survived to what was produced because some of the stuff that was in the film, it's like, wow, this is really just cliche. You know, what like if it was a different director, even though Michelle Gantry was like, on and off this project for years,
00:43:32
Speaker
You know, since like 95, I think. You know, I think everyone took it seriously, but I think it was like the wrong ingredients for the wrong recipe or something like that. I don't know the I don't know the analogy I'm trying to make. I'll figure it out eventually. I'll figure it out in the middle of the night and scream it like, oh, God, the wrong recipe. Anyway, so basically, it's like
00:43:58
Speaker
There are so many things that Michelle Gondry does that are like, oh, that is visually interesting, like the way the sites, the fights are staged, some of the sort of visual effects. And I'm like, oh, you know, I don't see that in modern superhero films, you know, like, oh, that's a really interesting take on all the things I'm like, that's I understand what you're going for, but it's not effective.
00:44:24
Speaker
It's weird, like there are some scenes that I'm like, I like the scene a lot. There's some moments I'm like, yeah, this is really fun to watch. You know, I like Seth Rogen as an actor. I mean, he's great in The Fableman's. And again, I think Seth Rogen, really everyone in that film, you know, has had the best career since then. I think he took a lot of learnings from that film. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I just think that this film was just
00:44:53
Speaker
it is a really interesting snapshot of 2011 early on in the rise of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, the end of the Dark Knight trilogy to your point, where people saw that there was a market for superhero films and a market for superhero films that
00:45:21
Speaker
actually meant big budgets and big names. And I think, you know, for a number of reasons, they produce something that wasn't that doesn't stand the test of time. But it is interesting to watch. I think that is like the biggest thing is revisiting it. And like, yeah, there's this can only have been made in 2010, if that makes sense.
00:45:50
Speaker
No, yeah. And I think, especially when you're looking at in comparison to those early Marvel films and what DC was doing with the Dark Knight stuff, it's an interesting snapshot because it's kind of like trying to find that line because the early Marvel films were much more serious than they ended up becoming in post Avengers, post Guardians of the Galaxy, where they leaned into the lightness and the humor a little bit more. Whereas the Nolan films were obviously much darker. And
00:46:19
Speaker
this is kind of like this it's kind of like this attempt to see how we can do with a more humorous take on superheroes but I don't feel like it was the right and I think a big part of the reason is there's a lot of things that work here like I love that
00:46:33
Speaker
when I first saw this, I hated Christoph Waltz in it. But when I watched it now last night, I actually kind of liked the fact that he's a supervillain who's going through a midlife crisis, and tried to reinvent himself as a, this crime boss who's trying to reinvent himself as a scary, I found that actually kind of entertaining. I don't think it completely works throughout the whole film, but it's a fun idea that they play with a little bit. And also the idea of, because the whole basic conceit of this is, it's kind of like, it reminds me of
00:47:03
Speaker
what the urban legend is for the original pitch of Knight Rider, where it's, you know, well, let's just get, let's have a guy with a talking car. That way we can get a good actor who can do the voice of the car. And then we can just get some pretty boy to play the, play the actor. And then that, and it doesn't matter if he can act or not. Cause we got the guy who's doing the voice acting, doing all the heavy lifting. And that's kind of like the urban legend of how they got, you know, William Daniels and David Hasselhoff for Knight Rider. I don't know how true that is or anything like that, but it, it holds up.
00:47:32
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of like a similar idea here where you know, you've got you've got this rich playboy guy, but he can't do shit for himself. All we can get is basically funded. So then you've got the the guy who is actually the superhero who's Cato doing all the action stuff. And it's a fun seat to play with it, especially with this idea of him being like this spoiled rich kid.
00:47:55
Speaker
But I think the biggest problem with this is, and I think a big problem, too, going to this movie that a lot of people had, it was a very visceral, negative reaction, just the idea of Seth Rogen playing this character. And because I know a lot of those same people despised Seth Rogen, just based on it, which I never got. Like, I think Seth Rogen, I mean, he's not, he doesn't have a whole lot of range, but he's entertaining. I love watching him in these movies. And I haven't seen the favor. I will point on that.
00:48:23
Speaker
Yeah, I was going to say like I will push back like that was one of those moments where I think Seth Rogen's I mean, he doesn't have as wide a range as other actors. But the fablebends was like, oh, yeah, like you are actually a really good actor. There is just this one scene. And I just bought the fablebends because it's one of those movies where
00:48:46
Speaker
It sounds so weird to say, but it sounds weird to say as a white passing male, cis male of Jewish descent. It was one of the few times in recent memory that I personally felt very seen in films, which sounds really, really weird to say right now in general. But it's a hyper-specific sort of, and I know we're kind of gunning up track here,
00:49:15
Speaker
The Fade Ones is a really good film. It felt very hyper specific to my upbringing and the need and the uncontrollable need to tell a story. Something that sits so deep inside you.
00:49:34
Speaker
that everyone else around you and your family will never truly understand you. And that, like, the need to be creative and, you know, have a creative life means that, like, you're going to be living something that's left of center to everyone else. And it's like, ah, me. And there's this great moment with the sort of Spielberg character and Seth Rogen's character.
00:50:00
Speaker
And it's like, yeah, this it's so complex, that relationship. And you're like, oof, what a scene, what a scene. So, yeah, like, yeah. But to your point, like, I think a lot of people at the time just had a visceral reaction to Seth Rogen as this this donor of comedies. You know, he's like.
00:50:22
Speaker
Who is this kid, he doesn't know this character like what George Clooney who was originally gonna play him at one point, then in the role I think there would have been a lot more positive to it. But yeah, I think the Seth Rogen of it all just meant that like there's a
00:50:39
Speaker
a pulp fan base who just hated the film on existence. But to your earlier point, I agree. I like the conceit that Kato is the hero. And I think they lean a little too into the bumbling doofus thing on Kato.
00:51:00
Speaker
Seth Rogen's end. And I think that's kind of like you can sort of see like there's a very narrow line they needed to walk on this. And they just kind of like went a little too far on either end. Yeah. Making it like an unbalanced film. It's like all the conceits are right. Like, yeah, OK. Have them like have Kato be the hero. That's an interesting take on things. But maybe don't make Britt Reid an idiot. Like make him more well meaning.
00:51:29
Speaker
So yeah, it's uh, yeah Yeah, I I felt I think that's probably the biggest weakness of this is probably seth rogan's casting in it. Um And I mean I think if he had just done this in the writing role and you'd gotten someone else Like towards Clooney or jake jillin hall was also rumored to be in the the kevin smith version And there are a few other actors that that were up for the role that would have probably done a better job. Um or you know, even someone like um
00:51:58
Speaker
Jon Hamm like he can easily switch between comedy and drama like that would he would have been a really interesting choice for that too But yeah, I just don't think Seth Roke especially at this point in his career. His range is very limited and Yeah, just can't really He just doesn't really seem to know how to play anything but that the doofus and that's a big yes with this movie Yeah, I agree. And again, I I don't think it's I I think it'd be wrong to say that he is
00:52:28
Speaker
he's he he did something bad because I think that's what he was kind of hired to do. That's what he was known for at the time. So it's sort of like. God, it's what's a good analogy. Well, good analogy is Joel Schumacher's Batman films, right? He was hired to he you know, he wanted to do like a serious take on year one and Warbird is like, no, we want something campy. So he gave him campy.
00:52:52
Speaker
Yeah, and the same thing. It's like, I think that like, you know, you hire Seth Rogen to play a Seth Rogen character. He plays a Seth Rogen character at that point. It's like, yeah, he's you're going to get a Seth Rogen character. Yeah. So I think that was one of the biggest, like, again, I don't want to say it's a mistake. I think what's interesting about this film is that I feel like everyone is doing their best version of the story, but they're all in different films.
00:53:20
Speaker
and they had to kind of cobble together. I feel like Cameron Diaz got some really clunky lines. I think that whoever like the script was like, I'm like,
00:53:30
Speaker
uh his temp secretary or something like that like this is a pickup you wrote this is this is this is not the original draft because then you have like a scene later on where like she's basically a reporter at that point you're like something's off here something is like i feel like there's a lot of anyhow this is i i don't know i don't know the story production but i i could like
00:53:53
Speaker
I feel like there's a lot of reshoots trying to like sort of bring this film together. Yeah, Seth Rogen had said that this film was a nightmare. So that's, I think there's definitely something to that. He wasn't more specific than that. So I was just looking at the trivia on IMDB and he said it was a nightmare and he had chalked it up to studio executives paying little attention to the most expensive portions of the film and its inflated budget. That's all it says on IMDB trivia, but
00:54:21
Speaker
But yeah, that was, and I think he had said like, even if he had been offered a, if they had done a sequel, he probably wouldn't have done it just because of all the, how much of a pain in the ass it was to do this, to do it. And yeah, I mean, like the Cameron Diaz part of it, she's, again, this is, there's like these elements of a good film, like her, you know,
00:54:46
Speaker
you know, bulky at the fact when he says, when Seth Rogen's calling her old and all that kind of stuff. Or when, you know, she reads in the riot act when he tries to kiss her and that kind of stuff. And they don't go into the regular cliched superhero, you know, and his girl Friday having a romance type thing, right? They're fighting back against those things, which is good. And I like that. But it's that then you pair it with other stuff. And it's just like, like you said, it feels like different movies.
00:55:15
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like the calling her old, I'm like, oof, this is like, that's 2011, this is humor that would never fly today. But also I think it was, the thing that I found really interesting with the Cameron Diaz plot that just sort of like is there, but they don't really use it, is this idea of, again, the girl Friday is like the mastermind, like she is like coming up with how they should, the green horse should act to sort of like fight crime, right?
00:55:44
Speaker
Kato is the real hero in like the green horn of the face of this operation. That's really interesting. That's a really interesting take. Yeah. You know, it is completely left to center, unlike anything we're seeing today. And it just doesn't all kind of come together. You know, and I was wondering, I was like, you know, not necessarily rewriting this,
00:56:13
Speaker
But I think one of the hardest problems, one of the biggest problems with this movie is that it's an origin film because there's that one scene where it's just like, what if we're the bad guys and we're doing like, it's like the logic on that. I'm like, how did you get to that point? Like it's a real reach. It's a real, like, and there's a lot of stuff at the beginning of the film that's just like, this is clunky. And that line specifically sit on like, this is a,
00:56:43
Speaker
you are reaching here just to justify this. It's almost like I think even the TV show, and if I were to like, if I were to make a green or to film or something or write something today, it's like you just it's I can't pronounce that word. You ship this. Thank you. You just issue the the the the origin because it it's almost more interesting to dive in and
00:57:12
Speaker
portray this Green Hornet as this vicious killer or this vicious crime lord, and then learning that he's actually the hero. Yeah. Like if you were to have, like, what if you made the Cameron Diaz character who's, I can't remember her name. Lenore Chase. But you, Lenore Chase. What if you make Len, yeah. You make Lenore Case, or Chase, the protagonist of the story.
00:57:40
Speaker
um and you know she is investigating the green hornet she's a reporter and you know the green hornet is this criminal mastermind and he's tearing his way through chicago because that's where he originally started um and she's working at the daily sentinel and she has like this relationship can be romance whatever like with brit reid then she finds out like
00:58:06
Speaker
Britt reads the Green Hornet, and then that's a shocker. And then it's like, wait a minute. And then she realizes that, no, he's actually the hero. It's sort of a similar problem, I think, sometimes with Superman, it's like, because we see the story through his point of view, for us, it's sort of like, well, of course he's going to win. Or of course he's boring. But if you set something outside of the character,
00:58:36
Speaker
and help us give that perspective, maybe we'd understand the story better. But because we're in this story with Britt Reid and discovering like, oh, I'll be a villain to be a hero. You're like, okay, how does that logic happen? You know, it almost would work better if
00:58:55
Speaker
You know, she's like, well, why are you the villain? And it's because we tried to do it the right way. So but that wasn't working. So we started doing it the wrong way. That's all you need. Yeah, that like that that that one line just solves all the you know, you just it answers all like the plot holes where it's just like it's these leaps in logic that you have to sort of see them go through. It's also weird because they devote they devote odd amounts of time to the wrong aspects of the origin. Right. Like they
00:59:24
Speaker
Yeah. They spend so much time on that aspect of him being like, what if we were the villains? And like you said, that's like the easiest thing to do. Like you just one line of dialogue and you got it out of the way. But they spend so much time on that to the point where then they're driving around trying to find like, where do we go to find crime? And like, you guys. Yeah. But then and then you look at the other stuff like the whole all the gadgets and stuff they make, it's like, oh, yeah, your father had me do this stuff to his car. It's like, OK, why? That doesn't make any sense. Yeah. All that stuff is completely glossed over.
00:59:55
Speaker
Yeah. I feel, again, I think there's something happened in the edit where there's a reason why he had him build all those things, but they just cut it for time or whatever. Yeah, and it's like, yeah, I think, to your point, they focus on all the wrong things in the early origin stuff.
01:00:17
Speaker
And I think again, this is like David Harbor as a district attorney, which I was like, right, David Harper's in this movie. Yeah, my wife pointed that out. She's like, oh, she's like, oh, that David Harbor. I'm like, oh, oh, yeah. I didn't even recognize him. Yeah. Like it's it's almost like he has the almost inverse storyline of Britt Reid where he is like this
01:00:38
Speaker
you know, just do go to district attorney that starts using bad guys, the right thing. That's not really explored. I think this like, again, the ingredients are there to make a really interesting Green Hornet film. But I don't think they necessarily succeed. Again, I think
01:00:58
Speaker
I'm glad this movie exists because I think it really gives us a lot of insight into what makes a successful superhero film in general and like seeing how studios were still learning. It's a really interesting snapshot. But at the end of the day, I don't necessarily reject what I wrote, whatever it is that I wrote. It's been 12 years.
01:01:28
Speaker
what I wrote my original review, but I was, I just, I've cooled on it. It's just like, for all the reasons that we've, we've listed, it's like the sort of how dare you not let someone try something attitude. Like I'm going to be a big defender of this because you don't like it. Uh, and it's also just the,
01:01:46
Speaker
seeing how superhero films have grown and changed and how, you know, from both Ant-Man and Shazam 2, which again, both films I actually enjoyed. I actually enjoyed Ant-Man more than most people. You're talking about the original one or the? No, the Quantum Media. Okay, yeah. I did too. It had issues, but I enjoyed it a lot more than a lot of people were complaining about.
Marvel's Production Challenges
01:02:14
Speaker
Yeah, I was like, everyone's like really bad at like, I actually want to see the screen. Like some people, we hated that. I'm like, I was fine. And it's funny because you're, you're not the biggest Marvel fan to speak to. Yeah, I am. Yeah, I'm not. And I mean, part of that comes from just working in the industry and knowing how this also just made. But like, yeah, the other part of it is it's like what I liked about
01:02:41
Speaker
I was like, Oh, it's, it was funny. I was actually on set the other day and they were like, someone was like, they just like, why did you like, why did you like Black Panther Wakanda forever less than Quantum Mania? And I was just like, because, you know, it like Black Panther, the first film is one of the best movies that Marvel put out, period. I think it's like, it is an
01:03:05
Speaker
A level film, it could have been an A plus, but that train fight at the end really still bugs me. That was like the, like the dip in it. I'm like, just, I don't need to see the CGI. I just, just let them fight. So it's like, it's, it is, I'll put it like, it's, it's essentially an A plus film. It is, you know, one of their best movies. And then Wakanda Forever comes out and it's such a dramatic step down for me. And I was just like,
01:03:35
Speaker
that it's so disappointing because all the stuff that's really interesting in that movie, like the using the meta text of Chadwick Boseman's passing is really interesting. And all that stuff is like, that's what I want to watch. And then Neymar comes in and I'm like, right, you have to feed the beast.
01:03:54
Speaker
So the first two Ant-Man films were always kind of small and light and fun. I think the first one's still the best. And this one, I think Loki did a better job of telling the story than Quantum Mania did. Who is our big villain? Oh, it's Kang. We'll see how long that lasts. Yeah.
01:04:22
Speaker
Yeah, for anyone who doesn't know, like apparently Jonathan Majors just got arrested like yesterday for yeah, yesterday, domestic abuse. And so like, we don't know the whole story. This is agent says he's innocent. So but just like disclaimers and all that we're recording literally the day after this has happened. Yeah. I mean, you know, the fact that like, it's just that the whole story, like, again, we don't know all the information, but like, no matter what,
01:04:51
Speaker
You know, don't don't hit women. Don't hit people in general. Yeah. Don't don't don't don't be a dick. Point is, it's like like Loki did a better job of introducing this plot line than Quantum Mania did. But at the same time, it was such a like a minor step down, relatively speaking, from the previous Ant-Man films and sort of like
01:05:10
Speaker
where I am as a, as a Marvel fan. Uh, I was like, all right, whatever. Like that was fun. Like that, like, whereas like, you know, comparatively like multiverse of madness. I really don't like that film. I kind of fucking hate it because it's like, you took like the most boring version of this story and then you like completely shout on Wanda's, uh, on WandaVision's ending again, which I have issues with. So.
01:05:34
Speaker
Quantum media, fine, it's fine. It is better, but where was I going with this? Somehow this came out of a Green Hornet discussion. So yeah, so Green Hornet, it's interesting because it's like,
01:05:53
Speaker
You could sort of see them sort of learning how to make a superhero film by failing. I don't think that succeeds, but it's interesting to see Sony, because Sony produced this, trying to make their own superhero film and failing spectacularly. So you can sort of see, why did this one fail, and why did the other one succeed? And now, where we are, where quantum media is poorly at the box office, Shazam's bombing, which is unfortunate, because I really like Shazam.
01:06:22
Speaker
And you sort of see like now the audience is sort of like like it for a lot of reasons is leaving superheroes behind like black Adam. God, what a bad movie. You know, like they're sort of like they're forgetting the lessons of Green Hornet. You know, like you're you're you're you're they're putting so much money into these movies, but they're not necessary. Oh, man. Shit. Yeah, let's think about this.
01:06:53
Speaker
Part of the reason why Green Hornet failed so spectacularly, even though it made a lot of money, you look at the Wikipedia article, and I would have to do more research on this. But it did relatively well in the box office. But because they spent so much money on this and did the 3D conversion, which is such a 2011 thing, because it
01:07:20
Speaker
made less money than they could have if they had just done a little bit smaller of a movie.
01:07:27
Speaker
set it in Chicago or whatever it was. Yeah, because it filmed it in LA. Yeah, it was $120 million of the budget, according to IMDB, and worldwide gross, $227 million. So it did make money. And yeah, I think one of the producers had said, if we had not done the 3D conversion, if we had not shot in LA, we would have definitely gotten the sequel. Yeah. And then you look at what happens now with
01:07:55
Speaker
You know, it's clearly that film was shot, like it was re-shot a lot and re-edited a lot. I don't know how well the script was done, but you look at where a lot of superhero films are today, and I think Marvel is dealing with this right now, where they're going into production without scripts. They're re-editing and re-shooting significant portions of their films.
01:08:18
Speaker
And now they're spending basically like the way Marvel makes a movie is let's go in with a little bit of script, we'll shoot it, edit it together, it doesn't work, and then spend millions of dollars to reshoot the film again and put it all together.
01:08:37
Speaker
And obviously that worked for a long time. I mean, I think it's worked for a majority of their films, arguably. But you look at Love and Thunder and what is going on with that movie. There's five different movies in that. We have one of my colleagues at Vanity Fair, I think it was Jackie. Maybe it was Jackie, maybe it was Fumi.
01:08:55
Speaker
Um, did a taco a TD notes and a scene for love and thunder. And they're like, does this, they're like pointing out like that there's like one of these scenes is a composite of two different scenes, but because of digital technology, they have like one actor from another scene and another actor from another version of the scene together, you know, like where, uh,
01:09:15
Speaker
because that's what they do. They just kind of put it all together. And you can start seeing the seams. And that's the forgetting the lessons of Green Hornet where you can like have, there's like one scene in the Green Hornet where she, Cameron Diaz comes in in this one outfit and it's all these like ties and he picks a tie up, right? And then they show,
01:09:37
Speaker
Her in that outfit, I think Seth Rogen's in the same outfit that he's wearing in that scene during this montage, getting a call from David Harbour's character. And it's clear that they took this scene, this thing from the end of the movie, and put it in the beginning, or vice versa. And it's like, oh, you really cobbled this together. And yeah, I think that's, yeah. Oof. Yeah. Galaxy Brain.
01:10:10
Speaker
Well, let's talk about some of the things that still do work. And I think one of the things that really does is Jay Chow's performance. I think he is without a doubt the MVP. Oh, yeah, definitely. He is without a doubt the MVP of this movie for me. I thought he, you know, he he nails the action. He's got this. I he really nails this this part of this guy who's like this, you know, this long suffering, you know,
01:10:36
Speaker
hate to use the word manservant, but, you know, this long suffering aid to these two dicks, basically. Yeah, I he didn't work so well for me, and I think partially because it's like I really wish it had been. Stephen Chow, who was originally cast in the role, right? And had to drop out because of scheduling. Yeah, I don't know. He was fine. I don't know. I
01:11:05
Speaker
It was clear that like English is the second language, which is not a problem necessarily. But I think, I don't know, I didn't see that sort of like long suffering thing. Like it was actually, I liked them better when there was like, they're doing the buddy cop thing. And I kind of wish there was more of that. Because I think they lean too heavily on
01:11:31
Speaker
Like them being at odds when they were best when they were just like being together Yeah, I think there's a balance that needs to be struck between that because At the end of the day you still have this
01:11:46
Speaker
especially with the way this movie's set up, you still have this guy who's basically a rich and competent asshole. And then you've got the competent guy who has to do all the work basically. So I think you do need to have an element of them at odds, although I think to your point, they did overplay it, especially when they get into the whole forced love triangle thing with Lenore. That was just completely- Yeah, it was just-
01:12:12
Speaker
Complete waste of time. It made Brit seem petty. I felt like they needed an excuse to have them be at odds at the end of the movie, so they came up with that. It's like you really didn't need that.
01:12:30
Speaker
I think, yeah, man. Well, especially because their reconciliation feels very forced. It's like they spent all this time driving this wedge between them and there's like no time spent on the reconciliation, right? He comes up with them in the gun. He's like, I'm really sorry. He's like, I forgive you. And it's like, well, I mean, obviously if someone's going to point a gun at you and you're going to tell them you're sorry. So like that, that did not felt. And I get, I get what they're trying to say is that, oh, he was
01:12:58
Speaker
he had realized that before he had forgiven him or something like that but it's not portrayed any believable way in the movie yeah yeah again i really think there's i don't know if there's a better version this is one of those instances like i released the
01:13:15
Speaker
Not even the Rogan cut. I would love to read the original script, you know, because I think it's there's I remember this is funny. Like, I always think of the first Avengers, which is still one of my favorite Marvel films after it came out.
01:13:30
Speaker
Everyone's like freaking out because it's like, oh, my God, they did it like they fucking did it like they they build this universe at all worked. Even if you look at Marvel, the Marvel Phase One is sort of like it's one of the weaker phases. Like it has Iron Man, you know, even though like I really loved First Avenger, but like Thor's fine. You know, Incredible Hulk is made it best. And Iron Man 2 is divisive, which I kind of like it, but it's also kind of a mess.
01:14:00
Speaker
Then Avengers comes around, you're like, oh my God, it all works. And someone asked Steven Rogers. Jesus. Chris, not mine. Oh my God. Evan, thank you. Wow. That was a slip. They asked Chris Evans like, did you, too many Chris's, like, did you know it was going to be this great thing? And he was like,
01:14:22
Speaker
Um, you know, sometimes you get these amazing scripts that are like, there's just, I can't believe I'm getting to act in this. And then you see the film final film and you're like, it's terrible. And then sometimes you get these terrible scripts and then you see the final film. It's like the best thing ever made. So he's like, you never know. Um, so he's like, yeah, I didn't know this was going to be what it was. I, I.
01:14:46
Speaker
you know, I signed this contract, I was part of the movie, but now I'm seeing it like, yeah, I had no idea. So I always feel like I would love to see if like you take the script, like does that work better on its own? And if you just taken that script, got a different cast, got a different director, or different cast, same director, whatever like
01:15:07
Speaker
like different ingredients to make that recipe would have been a better would have been a better movie like or is like the script are really better like my friend Patrick I have to I have to ask him about it but like apparently he was saying that like 47 Ronin which is not a good movie he read the the novelization of the movie and he said the novelizations really good it's like revenge of the Sith like revenge of the Sith is
01:15:34
Speaker
a mixed bag of films. I think kids who grew up with it think it's the best Star Wars film.
01:15:41
Speaker
I can see why they think that like I can I understand why they think that I loved it at the time. I don't hide it. Hold it as high esteem as I did when it first came out. But the novelizations, the goat like the novelization is the best version of the story. You know, I remember talking to my girlfriend about it and we're just like, wait, why do people read like why is that a thing like like Star Wars novelizations of movies are actually like
01:16:11
Speaker
odd big deal because they add nuance and stuff to the stuff of the movies that you've read or the movies that you've seen. Um, it's like this weird exception. Uh, so it's like the same thing. Like if I would almost like say, like if I were to take the story from the green Hornet movie.
01:16:45
Speaker
That script, the original script was one of the greatest scripts he had ever read.
Exploring Green Hornet's Media Presence
01:16:50
Speaker
it might be
01:16:50
Speaker
And he had no idea how that movie had come out to be such a pile of shit at the end. He's like, because that script, he said, was apparently amazing. So I'm really I'd be curious to see that. And, you know, I think Alec Baldwin said something similar at one point as well about working on different movies. Like, why have you worked on? Why have you taken on projects that were so obviously terrible from the start? He's like, well, actually, it's harder to tell when you're just going in on this. Yeah.
01:17:16
Speaker
100% because you're just like, you don't know, you just don't. Yeah, I'm looking for green hot cornet novelizations and all I'm getting is moonstone stuff. So yeah, probably if you're listening. Yeah, there might have been but I will say like, if you're listening to this and you're like, Oh, like, I don't know if I really like this movie, but I like this idea of the character. Excuse me, check out.
01:17:39
Speaker
Moonstone, one of my publisher does the Green Llama. They have a whole series of books that are really good. There's the Kevin Smith graphic novel that's really interesting. There's like listening to the original radio dramas. You can listen to watch the original TV show.
01:18:00
Speaker
The Green Hornet in and of himself is a really, really interesting character. It's just, you know, no one's really gotten him just yet. Yeah. And there's been a ton of common stuff like the, you know, Matt Wagner did Green Hornet year one. You know, Kevin Smith, you had mentioned Michael Uslan had done some Green Hornet stuff as well. Mark Wade has done some stuff. So there's a lot of
01:18:25
Speaker
A lot of really talented people have worked on this character. And I'm not sure how available the original, the 1960s TV show is, but if you can find a way to watch that, it's, like I said, I just re-watched the first episode last night, and it's not the greatest thing in the world, but it's pretty serious when you consider that it's made by the same people who did Batman 66, and yet this is a much more serious version of it.
01:18:52
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, it's I mean, like it is. It looks great. It's Bruce Lee. There's actually if you ever watched Once Upon a Time in the Hollywood, they actually like reference that pretty directly. It was a I mean, it only lasted one season, just one season, one season. But it's like one. It's 26 episodes, just like basically three seasons today.
01:19:19
Speaker
And I, it was, I can't remember the reason why it was canceled, but it was very well received. I mean, I know that whenever I talk about people, uh, whenever I talk to people about it, like it's still very warmly remembered. Um, and I don't know why it was only lasted for one season, but again, it was.
01:19:41
Speaker
It's for many people, it is like the best version of the show, of the character. Van Williams is the Greenhorn, Bruce Lee is Kato. Yeah, it is. In many ways, still the standard version of this. Yeah, I'm not sure why it was. I'm trying to look it up because maybe it was a rights issue. I'm not sure. But I'm not or maybe it was just too expensive.
01:20:09
Speaker
might have been it. I think I think it just it yet. In fact, they didn't even end the last four episodes or something like that. It was or something like that. Like there was some episodes or but for whatever reason. Oh, Dozier found itself at odds with his boss at ABC Network from the outset. So apparently there was a lot of behind the scenes stuff going on as well.
01:20:35
Speaker
And I think also just like maybe also might've been the popularity of Batman 66 because people don't remember now, but that was, you're talking about Batmania. That was huge back in the day. And Green Hornet was this much smaller type of thing where it was taking itself much more seriously. So I guess maybe there just wasn't that same kind of appetite for that style of superhero back in those days.
01:20:58
Speaker
I mean, which is interesting considering they crossed over, as we mentioned before, but I think, I mean, it might have been not so much an appetite, but maybe it was just like they really wanted another success like Batman. Right. And it didn't get those numbers. So they're like, you know, or we want it to be like this. And the network's like, we want it to be like Batman 66. And they didn't call Batman. I mean, you can kind of compare it to might also be a similar situation where
01:21:26
Speaker
you know, you had smallville, which is this huge runaway success for the WB layer CW. And then they, oh, let's keep doing this. And then they try birds of prey in it.
01:21:37
Speaker
bombs right away and of course that very different levels of quality with those two shows but but I think it's a very similar type of idea that you see happen and I mean you're even kind of seeing this now with um you know the CW they've had all this success and all this praise with Superman and Lois and they try Gotham Knights and it's um it's just getting you know torn apart online which I haven't seen it but I understand why from what I've heard
01:22:03
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, yeah, well, because it's I think it's interesting. It's like what you had this sort of thing with I haven't watched the second season, Superman and Lois. I love the first season. I think it was really interesting. It's good. It's it's got it's got some of the same story beats, but the but it's still very, very entertaining. Good. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a really good Superman. I think the idea of him as a parent is very interesting. I think it adds an interesting dynamic.
01:22:35
Speaker
that we really like we're only beginning to really see in comics. You know, I think with Jonathan Kent, I don't know, again, it goes back to this idea of like, I'm really glad, even though I'm like way behind it, I'm really glad these things exist because it allows us to figure out what works and what doesn't with these characters. I think Gotham Knights, just based on the premise alone, what I don't think works for me is just like,
01:23:04
Speaker
I mean, you're you're you're you're trying to have it both ways, right? You're like, let's have a. Let's have a show about Batman, but like not be about any of the characters that we actually really care about. And I think like even like his son is not like the son from the comics. It's like it's not Damian Wayne. It's someone else or it's weird. Yeah, it's this. I don't know. There's been this obsession that TV studios have had
01:23:34
Speaker
going back before Smallville with the idea of doing a Batman show without Batman. And so much so with the original, before Smallville, that was supposed to be young Bruce Wayne, and then they decide to do Smallville instead. Then they do Gotham, they do Birds of Prey, they do Titans is very heavily Batman influenced. So you've done like five or six versions of Batman without Batman. So why do
Adaptation Challenges and Successes
01:23:55
Speaker
you keep on doing that? How is Titans? Because I tried to, I watched the first four episodes and I absolutely hated it. Like I, I,
01:24:04
Speaker
I think for my money, it was such a misunderstanding. Speaking to something that was kind of edited within the inch of its life, that very first episode where he's a detective, like interesting, Dick Grayson's a detective, interesting. And then there's a line where he's like, Batman might want to cross a line that I didn't want to cross.
01:24:25
Speaker
motherfucker and the scene beforehand you killed four people like so what was the line that you didn't want him that he wanted you to cross that you were not okay with because you would literally Murdered people and then there's that one moment with like hawk and dove and they're trying to have sex He's like, I'm sorry It's don't get used to and I'm like, oh no And then they have like her get in the mirror look up and get smiley and she's like, oh my god She had her in a fair with Robin. I was like, oh
01:24:54
Speaker
It's like it was just this extreme version of the story. I'm like, I don't I don't want this. This is not what I want. But I believe it's going to be going for four seasons. I enjoy it for the most part. Like it's definitely it's I mean, there's a very different level of quality when you compare it to like Doom Patrol, which is amazing. I've heard only good things about Doom Patrol is so good. It is so good. If you read the Morrison Doom Patrol.
01:25:21
Speaker
No, no, I've heard all again. It's amazing and it's like They they use the Morrison Doom Patrol as like their Bible for this So if you're a fan of Morrison Doom Patrol like this series which I am like this series is just it's it's such a perfect Way to translate that onto into the live screen. I've it it is amazingly well done Titans it's
01:25:46
Speaker
Like, ah, because I was cool on it to begin with from the trailer and everything, because it looked like they were going with the whole, the Snyder type, you know, angsty, dark type thing. But I found myself actually really kind of enjoying the first season, because it, there is some of that, especially early on. But it does kind of course correct a little bit, and you find out that, and it gets really, and it has ups and downs. But there's some really good stuff that keeps me coming back to it.
01:26:15
Speaker
This is an example of the first half of the most recent season four.
01:26:23
Speaker
had Titus Welliver is Lex Luthor and he was amazing and just like unfortunately you know spoilers he dies but they had him in there for a few episodes and he was great and like I would have watched a whole season of him um there's a lot of other stuff in there too like you know I really like the guy they got playing Superboy um they got Tim Drake in there now too which is which is interesting to see so there's and I overall I like uh
01:26:48
Speaker
probably gonna mispronounce is it Brendan Thwaites I think is his name or whatever his name is. But as Robin, Nightwing, Dick Grayson, I really like him. I think he does a lot more good than bad. I think he's definitely the best version we've seen of that character in live action. Not exactly stiff competition, I understand that, but still.
01:27:09
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. Like, I think I'm more readily, I'm more willing to give Doom Patrol a chance because I know it's like a lot more adults and I know it's a lot more like absurdist, but I it's it's weird. Like, I feel like there's like an allowance and an allowance, but it's like a.
01:27:31
Speaker
It's weird, especially considering how our conversation started, understanding the limits of what these certain characters, yes, I will feed you, my cat is hungry. Certain of the limits of these characters and wondering, with Man of Steel and seeing the range and accepting them, I feel like, you know,
01:27:57
Speaker
What I saw on Titans, I felt like and those those episodes was like, you lost sight of what made these characters interesting. And I think and that's and that's kind of where to the Green Hornet of it all, like they lost sight of what make this character interesting, you know, where when they do do it, like, oh, this guy is the hero, but he's pretending to be the villain.
01:28:20
Speaker
that's when it gets really interesting. That's the cool story. You know, Titans, I think, when you're seeing Dick Grayson kill and things like that, that's not really Dick Grayson. It's like Superman killing. You don't really want to see that. You know, it's I think so many times when these
01:28:41
Speaker
when these projects go awry, like the Green Hornet, like Man of Steel and Batman versus Superman, is that they lose sight of the core appeal.
01:28:52
Speaker
of these characters. I think whatever creative is behind that project starts seeing like, Oh, well, this is I like they see the wrong thing. Like Snyder, I think always understood the likes the wrong thing about Batman. It's like he's badass. It's like a lot. And let's be honest, like a lot of fans seem to like, yeah, well, I mean, it's the it's the same problem he had with Watchmen, right? Where he
01:29:16
Speaker
He wrote this on, like you watch, whenever someone says like, oh, Watchmen is such a great movie, it looks just like a comic. I'm like, yeah, but he doesn't understand what those panels were trying to say. That's the, you know, I went on a whole rant on this way back on when we talked about the Watchmen movie. I think it was like an episode five or something of the show.
Creative Ideas for Green Hornet
01:29:35
Speaker
So go back and hear my take on that, because. 130 Five episodes back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a long time ago. But yeah, and I think, yeah, I think
01:29:45
Speaker
same thing here with Green Hornet is I think everyone gets so hung up on the idea of Britt Reid being a dick that they forget that at the end of the day you're still supposed to be telling a story where Britt Reid becomes a hero and they they lose sight of that and also like you said the most interesting part of the Green Hornet story here is the fact that they're they're posing they're heroes posing as villains and
01:30:11
Speaker
Uh, part of the problem here is that they, they lost sight of what makes that character interesting. And like you'd said, and that idea of like, you know, breaking the law to protect, protect it. That's a really interesting idea. And that's something that is.
01:30:24
Speaker
I think part of the problem too is I don't think the Green Hornet really works in a movie setting either. I think you'd really want to do something where it is a TV show where you can explore the ramifications of these decisions. It's hard to fit all that kind of stuff into a movie too, I think. Yeah. I mean, I think like, again, I think it can work in a movie. I think it has to be
01:30:50
Speaker
sort of reconstructed. I think the origin story is a mistake. You can explore the repercussions. Like, God, imagine the green hornet, but heat. Like, that's how you do it. I really just watched Heat for the first time, and I can't believe that was like a blind spot. I can't believe that was your first time. But yeah, good, good.
01:31:15
Speaker
But like, yeah, my girlfriend's like, you haven't seen I'm like, I've seen scenes from it. Like, that's actually one of the weird things about going to film school is when you watch a lot of clips from a lot of movies that you think you saw the movie and then you see the movie, like, like fucking Die Hard. Like I watched Die Hard once. I mean, I saw Die Hard 3 with Die Hard with the Vengeance. I love Die Hard with the Vengeance and I love Die Hard. So I bought Die Hard on Blu-ray and I sat down to watch and like, I've never seen this movie.
01:31:42
Speaker
ever. And this is years ago now, I can watch it countless times now. That was like heat. I'm like, I know I that was one of those like, I've seen a lot of clips from it. I've seen a lot of talk a lot about it. But I know I know that I did not see the movie beginning to end. And it was like,
01:31:59
Speaker
The 4K was like eight bucks on Amazon. And I was just like, yeah, this is cheaper than a movie ticket. Let me get it. And it was like, oh, yeah, this is great. This is cinema. So imagine a story like that.
01:32:23
Speaker
but the Green Hornet. So you can tell a sprawling crime drama in film with the Green Hornet. I just don't think it's a tougher nut to crack. But yeah, I think a TV series is really good. Again, I have a really
01:32:43
Speaker
interesting idea, I think for the Green Horned Green Llama crossover that I really want to do, because I like, it'll never happen. So I mean, if it does, it'll just point like, Oh, this is one, this is when he pitched it. Basically, because my Green Llama stories are all like one continuity. And I establish that he lives beyond the Pope era, that he
01:33:09
Speaker
ages very slowly. I want to do I think Dynamite did something similar to that in their project superpowers when they aged him very. Yeah, but it sucked. They very slowly. They also made him a plant based superhero. That was. Yeah, I think that was a I think that was a way to get around any potential rights issues or something. Maybe I don't know. No, no, no, it wasn't. That's a whole different story.
01:33:32
Speaker
No, they just made him a plant-based superhero because they misunderstood the appeal of the character. He's a Buddhist. He's a Buddhist. He's a bodhisattva. He is someone who is delaying his own enlightenment so others can follow him and become enlightened themselves.
01:33:51
Speaker
That is an interesting story. That is a plant-based superhero. I have Swamp Thing. I don't need the Green Llama to be a plant-based superhero. So yeah, they did something similar, but I think the, I don't know, the alternate history of the Project Superpowers, I really don't care for, but that's another story. But the idea is that like, I really wanted to tell like,
01:34:18
Speaker
you know, sort of the or inverse of Steve Rogers, where like the further like you jump him that like the thing, the way thing about Captain America is the further away you get from the origin story, the more relevant he becomes. You know, it was really interesting. It was a good choice. Like when Stanley said, Oh, he was frozen.
01:34:42
Speaker
We're retconning all that stuff. He was frozen in time and now he's back. It's been 20 years and he's like, wow, things have changed. And now with the Chris Evans version, it's been like 70 years and that's even more interesting. It's much more interesting, yeah. Yeah. So when they eventually reboot the character at some point,
01:35:03
Speaker
You know, it's a hundred years he's been frozen. That's going to be nuts. We I hope to see that. I really would love to see that version of the characters. And it's going to be really because who knows if there will be America by then. That's depressing. So like I want to do something similar with like the green llama, but like have him live very long.
01:35:24
Speaker
and lose the
Seth Rogen's Superhero Involvement
01:35:26
Speaker
people he cares about along the way. And I think what, you know, he is a Tibetan hero. He loses Tibet. That is a very different kind of story where it's not like Methuselah, but it's just like, you know, he becomes less relevant in the world. And how does he move through it?
01:35:49
Speaker
So, yeah, eventually I had this idea of of Jethro Dumont pretending to be like his son in 1960s Chicago and, you know, facing off against the Green Hornet, who he thinks is a crime boss because of course he would. It's very similar to like what they did with Batman 66, but it, you know, it would avoid, you know,
01:36:15
Speaker
I would actively avoid retelling that story. But like, it'd be really cool to have like, you know. Going into this story where and that was the best thing about the balance, 66 girls, I was like, Batman believes that Green Hornet is a villain. Right. So that's that. That is how they first interact.
01:36:38
Speaker
So there's something to be there. There's something there. And I really would love to do that story if I did. But so, yeah, my point is, is that like there are lots of ways in with the Green Hornet as a concept. And I think this story, this film tried to do too many different things and kind of ended up with a mess.
01:36:58
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a that's pretty good note to end on. Like, it's just, there are some, there's some good things in it. And like, I find myself really loving the stuff with Chris off Walt's a lot more this time around than I did the first time. Jay Chow, I still enjoyed him a lot in this. And yeah, I still just come back that and
01:37:21
Speaker
for anyone who's who said like, I think Seth Rogen, I think has done a lot like you'd mentioned, you know, he did The Boys, he did Preacher, he's doing the new animated Ninja Turtles movie. This is a guy who knows his geek shit, obviously, and he knows how to do it. He knows how to do it. Well, like, you know, The Boys is amazing. Preacher got off a bit of a rocky start. But overall, I enjoyed it for the most part. And
01:37:47
Speaker
And one of the things I found. He's also did like Invincible, right? Or no, no, he didn't. I don't. He might have. I think you might. I think you might have had some involvement with Invincible as well. But the only things I found hilarious was all these people who were praising like the boys and and preacher were some of the same people who were shitting on Green Hornet before it even came out just because of Seth Rogen's involvement. I'm like, you guys know who wrote those things you now love, right?
01:38:17
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that is. I thought I thought I got a I got a bit bit of a I got a bit of a jolt out of that. But yeah, I mean, and I think he if he was going to do a version of the green hornet, I mean, I know it doesn't have the rights anymore, so it doesn't matter, but.
01:38:33
Speaker
I would much rather see him take a backseat to it and just stay on the other side of the camera and just focus on like the writing and the producing and let someone else play the character. I think is because I think that is really where the biggest fault in this movie lies. And I think a lot of the other stuff we do have the problems with a lot of other the script problems. But for me, the biggest fault is really Seth Rogen is just not the right pick for this character.
01:38:58
Speaker
Yeah. And it's funny because like even the Christoph Waltz who's like amazing in what's not what's fun time in Nazi Germany in in glorious bastards. Like, yeah, I really wish we had had that menacing version of him. I think there's a again, there's an interesting story there that he's
01:39:20
Speaker
But I feel like he's playing for comedy. And I think while Christophe Walsh can be very funny, I was I know I was wishing for like his character in just that menace. Well, you know, who was originally supposed to play that part because Christophe Walsh was a recast, Nicholas Cage. Oh, and you see that you realize that that is a part that was definitely written for Nicholas Cage.
01:39:46
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. See, that's the thing. I think it's just like, yeah, I think it's just like there was a better the script might have been fine, but the wrong cast. No one. And it's no one's fault. I like I don't want to sit there and like, say, say like, again, says Rogan didn't do anything wrong. He was doing what is hard to do. Christophe Walsh didn't do anything wrong. He was doing was hired to do like Jay Chow, Cameron Diaz, you know, everyone.
01:40:14
Speaker
was there doing the thing they were hired to do. But, you know, there's a reason why those ingredients you don't put together. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. And this is like you said, this is early in the the superhero factory. So they're just still trying to and they're still so hooked on the idea of doing an origin story, too, which is like we'd said, that's another problem, too. And I think if they were to make this movie now, I think they would completely cut out the whole origin part of it.
01:40:41
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was like the best thing, like with my favorite part of Spider-Man Homecoming was like when the thing happened happened, you know, like, thank you. That was and Batman Batman Batman. Yeah. Like just like it's we don't need it. We don't need to see pearls falling in slow motion for the 50th time.
01:40:59
Speaker
Yeah. And I think, God, like, that's a again, again to the like, the Batman is a good example. Like, yeah, you could like, it's a crime drama. Like, you could have you could do it as a movie. But I think, yeah, I think the mistake was the origin.
01:41:15
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Well, that's one of the mistakes. Yeah. It's some interesting things. I think it is an interesting movie to revisit, especially if you had a very visceral reaction to it back at the time. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't say it's a good movie. I wouldn't say it's even that enjoyable of a movie because I think I actually fell asleep a few times watching it, but it's got some good moments in it nonetheless.
01:41:40
Speaker
Yeah, I think the biggest thing is if you are going to watch this, and we've touched upon this several times already, but the biggest thing is you're gonna go watch this out of curiosity. It is a really interesting snapshot. It is not a bad film. It's not a good film. It is a thoroughly mediocre film that is evidence of a time in superhero cinema that is both lost and is kind of returning.
01:42:10
Speaker
Yep, all right, good way to end it on. All right, Adam, why don't you tell people where
Wrap-Up: Social Media and Sign-Off
01:42:14
Speaker
they can find your stuff? Well, you can follow me on basically every social media account under Adam Lance Garcia. That's all one word. I'm on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok and a few other places. And you can preorder Star Wars from a certain point of view or Turn of the Jedi at your favorite store. It's basically on literally every store because it's Star Wars.
01:42:40
Speaker
I wrote a Star War, that is the coolest. I repeat it to myself sometimes when I'm just walking around. And you can listen to my Green Llama audio drama on your favorite podcast app. It's a grandma with Green Llama with one L.
01:42:56
Speaker
the first season eight episodes. I'm really proud of it and we're going to be working on season two once I finish the Green Llama novel. I'm going to do it. I promise. All right. All right. Well, thanks again for coming on and we'll have links to all that stuff in the show notes.
01:43:13
Speaker
This is fun. So glad to have you come back on. I'm so glad it was the 150th episode just to work things out. And this is a fun pick to revisit. But that does it for this episode, Superhero Cinephiles. Superherocinephiles.com is the website, SuperCinemapod on Twitter and Instagram. And if you subscribe to the Patreon, you get these episodes a week in advance, and you also get access to the Superhero Cinephiles Book Club, where we talk about comics and graphic novels. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you next time.
01:43:43
Speaker
If you enjoy the Superhero Cinephiles, then you'll also love my companion podcast, the Superhero Cinephiles Book Club. All my Patreon subscribers get access to this exclusive podcast where I review superhero comics and graphic novels. Not sure what comics you want to read next or what you should dive into? I've got you covered on that. I'll be doing reviews, recommendations, and also talking to you about useful entry points.
01:44:03
Speaker
If you're interested in reading some comments but don't know where you should start, plus you'll get access to all episodes of the main show a week before everyone else. On all of this for as little as just a dollar a month, all you have to do is go to patreon.com slash supercinemahot and you can sign up at any subscription amount to get started. Thanks so much for your support and please don't forget to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:44:47
Speaker
Thank you for listening and as always good night. Good evening. God bless.