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Episode 32 - Part 1: Understanding which survey type is appropriate and when
65 Plays1 year ago
In part 1 of this episode, we sit down with Tim Kenny from Tim Kenny Surveying to discuss everything from entry routes in surveying to the intricacies of survey levels. This is a must-listen for anyone in the surveying industry!
🔑 Key Highlights:
- Tim's unconventional path to becoming a surveyor
- The importance of comprehensive training
- Understanding the real differences between survey levels
- Client needs vs. property requirements for survey levels
- Real-life case studies and regulatory insights
- Enhancing client satisfaction and minimizing risks
- Tune in now to elevate your surveying knowledge!
#Surveying #Surveyors #SurveyingIndustry #Podcast #ProfessionalDevelopment #SurveyBooker
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Transcript
Introduction to Survey Booker Sessions
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Survey Booker Sessions. Tune in to hear from people working in a range of industries and roles to provide you ideas that you can take away and use in your own business. I'm your host, Matt Nalley, the founder and director of Survey Booker, which is the leading CRM and survey management system for survey surveyors.
Guest Introduction: Tim Kenny
00:00:15
Speaker
So on this week's episode, we have Tim Kenny from Tim Kenny Survey. So thank you for coming on today. and Thank you for having me on. Do you want to give everyone a bit of background? I think some people will have seen you on LinkedIn and sort of, you know, you post on there quite regularly. So some may already know you, but do you want to give a bit of background as to sort of, yeah, who you are, what you do? Yeah, okay.
Tim's Career Journey as a Surveyor
00:00:33
Speaker
For those that do, I'm the person who just waffles garbage on LinkedIn on an overly regularly basis, according to some people. But apart from doing that, I'm also a residential surveyor, qualified back in 2007.
00:00:49
Speaker
ah Didn't take the most traditional route into saying I actually qualified as a home inspector first. So for anybody who is old enough and has been hanging around, the property industry long enough will remember Home Information Packs, which apparently I'm making some kind of comeback at some point, but um yeah, I don't like to think about those because I had, I might say traumatic experiences, but but complicated experiences. but um i So I trained as a home inspector. I was going to produce home condition reports that were going to go into into the Home Information Packs. and probably everyone already knows what what happened with those and and what they went where they went. But good news is that that kind of gave me a basic starting point as a surveyor. um And then I've gone on from there to kind of have a career, ah you just getting out, inspecting properties and reporting on them. um And then from there sort of
00:01:38
Speaker
fell into fell into into training work as well um back in 2020, so kind of full-on lockdown period. Saba, the organisation, actually trained me. They wanted to give their students a little bit of a some kind of taste of of mentoring. you know if Students couldn't get out with with surveyors anymore because nobody was going near anybody. So they want to bring in a little bit of a, some takes that, so they they brought me in just to do presentations on on some of the properties that that I've been to. And that then went from there into kind of, you know, developed into the training after now.
00:02:14
Speaker
That's really interesting. Okay.
The Importance of Training in Level 3 Surveys
00:02:16
Speaker
So I want to think what we're going to talk about today is obviously, um, level threes and a number of different things across the three topics. So, um, understanding when a survey type is appropriate and requirements for them and so on. But what, what sparked your interest with level three specifically, I suppose, and then, and staying in the training side since, since COVID. So I kind of, I, I got issued in, while I provide the training on, on level three surveys is because no one else does. In all honesty, there are, you know, most of most of the training of this type that happens tends to happen in-house, doesn't it? Kind of it we where you get, you know, the president of this company or the the senior surveyors will train up there, the the the more junior members and give them their idea as to what a level three survey is or a level two or whatever it is. um And that that's great. And i and I'm all for kind of this, that mentoring approach to to training, kind of giving people the benefit
00:03:11
Speaker
of your experience. um But also it can be a little bit ad hoc. It's a little bit, yeah I reckon it's done like this. So that's how I think you should go ahead and and do it. And actually, there's, you know, maybe ah ah there's an what is a need for to kind of step back from it and go actually, what really is a level three survey? um And I know particularly because I So I didn't take my statistical route.
Understanding Level 3 Surveys
00:03:38
Speaker
I kind of had to teach myself what a level three survey was. I had some support from other good surveyors and everything else. um But yeah, I had to kind of work it out from first principles. I had to go back to the documents, go back to the case or go back to as many copies and reports I could get my hands on. um And you know, that kind of led to this understanding of what actually a level three survey is. You know, and I think as an industry,
00:04:05
Speaker
with We're quite good at focusing on the the building pathology, the construction knowledge, that solid technical knowledge. There are some really great surveyors out there with really great knowledge that they share and and and and those that are just out working. ah We can always do better. I'm not going to say we're perfect that mistakes are happening on a regular basis, but I think, you know, as an industry, we do we do that side of it well. um But they say no one's focusing on actually the the what actually makes level three. If you have all of that, you can have the the the best construction, the best building quality knowledge, you can go out and you can you know mentally pull a building apart. But if you can't put that into a a compliant and useful rapport, that's not worthless. That missing step, and that's what I try and kind of fill with the training that that I offer.
00:04:58
Speaker
Okay, so it's an interesting starting point there. So, and we touched on this just before we actually started recording, but um how do you decide what level of survey is appropriate for, I'm gonna say a job, because is it based on the property or is it based on the sort of clients requirements? So can one trump the other?
Critique of RICS Home Survey Standards
00:05:14
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, here here we do have the RICS home survey standards. And quick we're gonna talk, with but we're gonna have to talk about the home survey standards quite a lot in this. And I really want to kind of just sort of start by saying, I think it's a good document. You know, this is, it's a massive improvement on on what we had before. I think it is it's really well structured. the The concept of it is really good. But I tend to view it as a good first draft. You know, we're still at that relatively early stage with this this format of standard. We do a new one, hopefully the work on that starting soon and and we'll see a new one
00:05:52
Speaker
next year. So that'd be really good. um But i same like like with any first draft, you know it has its flaws. And it hasn't been until it's really been in use you know it's only been in use since 2021, so it's three years now, um that you kind of start to see where where the problems in it are. So I'm just saying, in like I do think it's a good document. So I'm not going to flag it off. And you're not going to be overly critical about it. But we do have to kind of but reflect somewhat somewhat on the elements that are missing, the kind of the problems that that are there and we need to work out. I think it's looking at it from a continual improvement perspective though, isn't it? It's not, we're not saying yeah you have a perfect anything and that's that's where it goes. It's just, yeah, we're now on the continual improvement path of how you refine it. And as times change, as as new things come in, new things will go into that that document as well, even in the future. um But anyway, but one of the things it does do really well is,
Determining Survey Levels Based on Client Needs
00:06:50
Speaker
it's When you look at the requirement or where it's just what type of property should have a sort of have what level of server or the fact that the descriptions of the levels, the first thing it talks about under each of those levels is the client. you know you know for For number one, it says, this this survey at this survey level is designed for clients who want a cost-effective report. you know This ah but this is this what level tier, this is for clients who want. First thing it talks about is the the want of the client, what they need. what they they think they need. So ultimately, yes, it is the client who determines what level of survey, what their their needs determine the level of survey, not the property. you know I think to me, too many surveyors have this strict idea of, okay, well, if it's it's this age, it has to have a level three.
00:07:38
Speaker
Yeah, nothing. And vice versa. The other way sometimes as well. Yeah, there is nothing, nothing in the standards, nothing in the case law, dictating that you cannot do a level level one on a 500 year old house. I mean, literally, the standards are open. If your knowledge of client is is suitably advised of the risks, then then that's all you need to do. I mean, obviously, We kind of have to talk about part and large if we're going to talk about survey levels. that's that's the kind of that the you know We don't get many cases as residential surveyors that relate to condition. The valuers, there's plenty out there for valuers. I'm not a valuer, so I don't get to have to read all of those ones. But this is this is the case that is really stands out for us as as as condition-based surveyors. Because a lot of that does revolve around survey levels, doesn't
Case Study: Legal Implications of Survey Levels
00:08:32
Speaker
it? ah you know there There's even an argument from
00:08:35
Speaker
one of the kind of the experts he was involved in in the case that you know if if the survey had done a level three he'd have probably got away with it. Now obviously I've accepted his opinion he was involved in the case but my reading of it doesn't quite fit with that. For anyone that's not um I think most people should have have ah heard about how it first starts, but is it worth it if we can just a quick bit of background on that one, if anyone doesn't know. Yeah, so Sveya went out, Sveya obviously took an inquiry for a survey. They did what we all do, like a right move or whatever else you want to look at to get some details. Saw a property that was relatively modern, I believe it had extensive renovation. I think it was interpreted as being rebuilt, not much renovated. So obviously Sveya went out, did their survey, carried out their inspection,
00:09:22
Speaker
um where they had some some concerns over the quality of some of the work. And I mentioned that because I think it's a really important point that we'll probably come back to. They were concerned about the quality of the finish and that kind of gave rise to a concern. But they didn't see many specific defects. They moved in, found the property was damp. Turns out it hadn't been rebuilt. This had been renovated and extended. And one of the things that got missed out was the damper, of course. i see yeah We can have a longer conversation about rising damp and the purpose of damp-proof courses, but in this instance, there was no DPC and the property was suffering from significant damp issues. Obviously, Surveyor hadn't reported these, so that immediately comes to a claim. Goes through the process. Surveyor is obviously is the one up in court. I think they did. They took action against the solicitor and the architects involved in the project as well.
00:10:20
Speaker
but unfortunately for the surveyor the architect and solicitors both settled out of court so their responsibility was not considered as part of the case so everything fell on the surveyor. So um it's a big case because the first of the numbers involved were quite large. The judge accepted the one of the opinion the opinions of one of the experts that the only way to resolve the issue was to literally fit a new physical DPC, which obviously is not actually knock down and rebuild with a new DPC. So you get a damages figure, which I think is in the 200,000 or 300,000 range. ah There's also was also very considerable costs, which gets you to the sort of 600,000.
00:11:04
Speaker
um It's also significant because the kind of the the the judge was considering different a different approach to to damages as opposed to thinking about the reduction in value. They were thinking about the cost of the works and and there's some other technicalities in that. um But one of the one of the key findings in there was that um if the surveyor had carried out a level three, so so they they booked it at a level two because they saw the property as as relatively modern, so in level two, what we would generally book for it. um But they found actually that if the surveyor had got there and and carried out a level three, they would have identified the defects that were present. Now again, we can question some of the expert opinion that says that any level of survey would have found those defects, but that's expert opinion, not not legal judgment. Yes, they found that if he'd done a level three, that would have flagged up the issues and he'd have provided safety for for his client.
00:12:01
Speaker
ah There was also some discussion around a ah professional consultant certificate and and the kind of documentation that backs up extensions.
Advising Clients on Survey Levels and Communication
00:12:08
Speaker
So anyway, so there's all of these complex issues involved in it. But I think what is what is most relevant for kind of this this aspect of the discussion is that the judge found that yes, the surveyor had booked at a level two and that that was reasonable to do based on what they could see before they visited the property. But actually, what the surveyor should have done is when they got there and found there were differences between what they believed to be present and what was present, um they should have updated their advice to the client. they So the surveyor should be like, okay, look, I'm here. This isn't what I thought it was. There are potentially some some more significant issues. Therefore, my client and you would be better served by having a level three survey. So they should have picked up the phone or got an email or whatever you would want to do. Contact the client and say,
00:13:01
Speaker
Hang on, this isn't right. I think you're going to need a level three, sort further advice from the client ah before carrying on. And I think it's really good because it does set a clear pattern now for what we we should be doing with service. And I think, you know, it's perhaps something that there should have always been there, but we now need to think about this. So the way I look at it, we have the home survey standards that say it's the client's need or opinions or desires that dictate the level of survey, they make the decision. But we as a surveyor offer them advice as to what might suit them best. Now, the home survey standards include some basis for that advice, age of the property, condition, complexity, all of these things come into it. So we can look at that and go, yeah, I think based on this, what I can see, this is the level of survey you should have.
00:13:55
Speaker
if you So for example, say I think I've seen it, I think you should have a level three survey because it is complex or it's old or it's in a very poor condition. um
00:14:07
Speaker
But if you choose not to do that, if you choose a level three, yes, you will save money, but you will take on this additional risk. So I yeah i may not report to you some of the things that might get flagged up on a level two. Again, that's a little bit iffy because I can very make stop make a strong case that everything that you'd find on a level two, you'd find on a level three, but pretty much. But ignoring that, you're saying to them, okay, yep, I think you should do a level three, but actually, if you choose a level two, you will save money, but you will take on some risk. That's kind of how it should work. And if they go, yeah, okay, I want you to go ahead and do a level three, that's fine. If they want you to go ahead and do a level two, that's fine. I'm not saying you have to.
00:14:52
Speaker
you know I've quite often made the point that point before that the standards and regulation don't dictate what level of survey we we can do. We can do a level one on a 200-year-old house. We can do a level one on a 500-year-old house if we really wanted to. um And sometimes I get, I've got a little bit of flat-quarters of my eyes on that a lot. But yeah ah again, it's good to make the point that I'm just saying that's what the regulation and the statute said, but but the regulator, sorry, and the case law say. you know
00:15:23
Speaker
It doesn't mean you have to do it. You're not obliged to take any survey. We're not we're not barristers. We don't have a cab rank rule for surveyors. You only don't want to take the work. Don't take the work. No one's making you. I'm just saying that if you choose to. you are well within your rights to do that. If a property really isn't in the surveyor's opinion better suited to a level three and you provided that advice, um I suppose you've covered yourself on that respect. Is there a risk? and i know this I know you're not a lawyer, so this is not legal advice, of of course, but ah just to caveat that before I ask, but ah is there still a risk that if you go ahead with a level two or a level one, for example, that that
00:15:56
Speaker
um you know you're going to be admitting advice ah emitting some information potentially, ah although you've advised that as a risk, that it's outside of what a professional would do, and that you're there for a risk, or did the do the standards cover you? for Yeah, i I can't see how you would be. As long as you've been clear in your advice to your clients, that's all that matters. Now, I always kind of, the the kind of the example I give on this is one actually not from from residential surveying, but actually from my days working in in in block management. So one of my first jobs was managing blocks of flats and freehold estates and dealing with all of those things. And anybody who's done any property management will work will know it's a quite a tough world. But in that, youre as the property manager, you're the agent working on behalf of a freehold or usually a resident management company. And the way I would always explain my role to a resident management company was to say, okay, well, look,
00:16:50
Speaker
Obviously, I'll set a service charge budget for budget for you. I'll tell you what I think it's going to cost to to run this property. and And part of that will include a reserve fund provision. So the roof will need replacing and and the windows need doing or whatever. I'll put some money aside into you here for that. i If one year you come along to me and say, actually, you know what? We've got 30,000 pounds sat in our reserve fund. I want you to go and go away and build us a swimming pool with that money. We don't want to spend it on the roof anymore. We don't want to spend it on the vehicle gate. We want to build a swimming pool because we love a swimming pool. um My job as a managing agent would be saying to them, okay, I think that's a bad idea because if you do that, you're not going to have money for your, for all the things that we plan to do it. On top of that, it will be, it's not compliant with the terms of the lease, which don't permit management company to spend money on improvements. So it's, it's really a flawed idea.
Responsibilities and Liability in Surveying
00:17:40
Speaker
And I would do that. I but i could put that in writing to them and I would definitely put it in writing. If they then wrote back to me and said, we want you to go ahead and build a swimming pool. I'd say fine.
00:17:50
Speaker
ah it's not i don't I don't care whether you your roof falls in next year because you know you' I've got my instruction from you. I've clarified to you the risks. You still instructed me. My job then is to go away and build you the best possible swimming pool I can with the money that you have available. That that would be my my role. So as long as I had advised them, and I was not negligent in my building in the swimming pool, which would mean I'd just pay someone else to go and do it, because I'm not competent to build swimming pools, um then i've I've satisfied my job, I've got no no risk in it. And it's it's exactly the same for surveyors carrying out surveys. So if I've told you this level of survey would suit your property, because of these reasons, and if you choose a different level, you are taking the risk, you come back to me in writing and say, I i understand that, I'd still like to go ahead. As long as I carry out my survey in accordance with the requirements for that level of survey, then I covered myself. You know? Yeah.
00:18:48
Speaker
today as we don't We don't dictate to our clients. We advise. We've got to be quite clear on that. Yeah, I think one of the important points as well there is um definitely put things in writing. I would always agree with that. And when it gives you a reminder of whether you did say something or not, because you can always think you had, yeah, you did i did I say that on the phone? I can't quite remember. It's always there, but it definitely covers you later because it's so hard to prove, yes, we had a discussion on the phone or in person when we said this. Yeah. You can you can take yeah you can take your conemp contemporaneous notes and that's good. But yeah, there is, I mean, you know, much you can cant can do by email. Again, anything where it is that you are,
00:19:29
Speaker
you drifting away from from the standards. You know, again, to kind of yeah touch on another point about about standards. We have home survey standards and they're a good document. They they specify what ah what constitutes or what we should do under a level two survey, right? But they're a, in effect, a minimum standard only. And also they don't they don't dictate. So we can't, we tu we're free to ignore them as long as we put that in writing to our client. So, yeah you know there are minimum There's a minimum standard in there, but if we want to do more, think we can do more. We can give more information. We can we can upgrade elements of a survey to to level three, but most of it's level two. We can even exclude elements of the building. you know If there's a section of the building that is that they're literally just going to knock down, if it's ah an outbuilding or something that they're going to knock down, and you could choose in your your terms to to to exclude that. But you've got to put it in writing. you know It has to be very clear. You can't just issue out your standard to terms.
00:20:28
Speaker
and You know, and I think this is the thing that I think it's important to get across to most of us is that, yeah, we've got the standards and yeah, we should be noting them and and and Rick's can enforce those standard on on us as members, but they don't override. our contractual relationship to our client. I've not seen any evidence, seen I've not seen a single ah case or or any other document that says to me, Rick's bricks guidance overrules case law. Case law is, you know, there and then you've got, it's it's not, Rick's guidance is not legislation. It sits under case law in terms of our hierarchy. it's it's a it Obviously the courts will take it into account, but we can we can exempt ourselves from it if we do it in in the right way.
00:21:13
Speaker
you know And again, I'm not saying we we we try and offer a lower standard. We can use it as a minimum and go above it.
Exceeding Minimum Standards
00:21:20
Speaker
But again, it's just making sure we do it properly and we do it for the right reasons and we do it in writing when we need to. Yeah, in terms of engagement are an interesting one. and we've covered this I think we'll be covering this on an episode coming up, but we haven't touched on it before where um potentially ah sometimes they're seen as just a tick box exercise, yeah even if the customer just ticks to agree to a link online. and I don't believe that's compliant at all with the home service standards in terms of personalization and so on. but
00:21:46
Speaker
um But it's, I think, um exactly as you said, if you if you use them in the way that it properly outlines what you are providing and what you're not providing, it's it's there, not just as a compliance aspect, a tick box exercise, but actually just to make the whole process easier for both parties on um what is and isn't going to be in that final report. Expectations are set, I think, is how I look at it. Yeah. Yeah. i like but now One of the, one I kind of, and but when it comes to terms of engagement, actually getting the chance to read the terms of in terms of engagement that actually, i when i when I view that process, I've kind of stolen a little bit from a kind of a sales background with that. When you're looking at the you know the the idea of the customer journey. So that that we use the same journey for it i mean for getting a client to book a survey. So you look at all of the the touch points and see where the the difficulties are. You're trying to remove those difficulties to make it as easy as it can be for them to make a purchase. That's a ah standard sales process. Apply the same thing to your terms of engagement.
00:22:45
Speaker
yeah make it as easy as possible for them to read them, and not just agree with them, but read them and understand them. you know that Take that same approach, and therefore you're you already starting that process of protecting yourself. because Because we've all had the phone call from the client who phones up to Mona or something owners about something, and you actually go, no, if you'd read your terms of engagement, you'd know about it. Of course, you'd find you're legally protected, but nobody wants to have the unhappy client because they haven't read the terms. whether you've got whether you're liable or not, you've still got an unhappy client.
Balancing Flexibility and Client Satisfaction
00:23:19
Speaker
And to kind of bring us back to the subject level three surveys, one of the reasons why you might not want to do the level two, even though the client thinks the level two would be okay, is because they're not going to be happy with it. are they if If it's the wrong survey for the property, they're probably not going to be happy. So again, there's this kind of, yeah, there's there's the compliance and the liability
00:23:40
Speaker
but also there's the customer experience and the having happy customers who give you money and tell other people to give you money for the job. You know, that's, that's, we're all having to, what we do is, but but we're also having to make money yeah as a business. So you want them to go away really happy. So if you're doing ah a level one survey on a 300 year old house, they're not going to be there. So, you know, essentially there's, there's, there's, No reason within the guidance, no reason within the case law that you can't do these, but actually the choice not to do it is probably going to be a commercial one. you know that's That's how I view it. Yeah, I think's essence think it's a very nice point, actually. It all should stem around. ah It's around client needs, as you say, but that customer experience part and all of these points, the touch points from getting a quote to understanding the terms, to the actual quality of report and stuff like that, is all ultimately customer experience and then what drives you forward. but yeah
00:24:37
Speaker
um I think that's been a nice setup ready for topic two. So um for anyone else that wants to carry on this thing, we're about to go on to the basic requirements around level three surveys and everything you need to know.