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#6 ComicsGate Part 4: The End
53 Plays2 years ago
Join us as we dig deeper into ComicsGate and how we tie it all together at the end.
This is the sixth episode in a series that unfolds how we got to where we are.
I'm joined again this week by Corinne Levy who is still upset about all of this.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Comically Pedantic'
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Comically Pedantic, where we take a detailed look at the complicated concepts, characters, and history of comic book culture. I'm your host, Derek L. Jason. Joining me again on this episode is the wonderful Corinne Levy. Woo! Final episode!
00:00:31
Speaker
I know this is, uh, I've been looking forward to doing this, not because, you know, I'm, I'm having a lot of fun, uh, recording with you and obviously I want that to continue.
The Repetitive Nature of Comixgate
00:00:41
Speaker
Um, but I've been looking forward to ending the coverage on this specific thing. Let's shut this book. You and I are great. We're doing a good time, but my God, let's get rid of these people from our lives.
00:00:56
Speaker
I will tell you, just a couple days ago I opened up Twitter and it was just Comixgate this and all over the fucking place and I went and I like I looked for it and it's just it's just so
00:01:12
Speaker
It's the same thing over and over. You can't really give much more to these people because it's like, okay, you're saying the same fucking thing. Yeah, big shit wheels keep on turning. Right. It's not stopping.
Weekly Highlights: Corinne and Derek
00:01:31
Speaker
Before we get into everything, I have to ask what is your bright spot for the week?
00:01:36
Speaker
Oh, my bright spot. So many things are bright and spotted. I went on a hike today. That was great. I got to eat a sandwich today. That was also great. I have completely forgotten everything that has happened this week apparently.
00:01:59
Speaker
I like that your bright spots are like, I got to go for a walk and I got to eat a thing. Yeah. Uh, no, I, the, the lemonade stand, I just told you about 10 minutes ago is, is so like top notch. Um, again, okay. Well, for the people who haven't heard yet right across the street from my home, uh, is a small group of children.
00:02:24
Speaker
that are selling lemonade on top of a radiator box, or one of just those big metal boxes that just come out of the ground. And it's so fun to me. I yelp to them from my porch. I was just like, how much? And they said $1. And then I ran across the street to get my watery lemonade. And I'm living my best life.
00:02:54
Speaker
So yeah, I got to walk outside, I get to eat a thing and I got to drink a thing. I'm set. Basic needs are met. Whereas like I'm, I'm looking back at my, my bar and I have like two new bottles of alcohol and I'm just like, when do I get to open these? That's great too. Why not? I think it's cause like I, I now work with wine every day.
00:03:22
Speaker
Mm-hmm and like so whenever we open a bottle like, you know, we taste yeah to see if it's different whatever or like You know if the bottles been open for a couple days then like, you know You want to make sure it's still good for sampling if the taste it so like not that I'm sick of wine yet, but
00:03:42
Speaker
I just consume a lot of small amounts of wine. Like I'm not chugging bottles at my job. That would be a problem. But it's just like, it's always like an ounce every other day.
00:03:59
Speaker
just smattered in there like Tuesday's a Syrah and then like Wednesday's a Pinot Grigio and it's just like I do have water. It's a good one. I'll have to bring a bottle for you. It's a nice one. Thank you. So we can celebrate our final episode. Yes.
Gamergate and Comicsgate: Origins and Impact
00:04:18
Speaker
So, I mean, we kind of went on like a really long adventure together over the past few episodes. Like, you know, we started talking about the
00:04:29
Speaker
the growing attacks on like Zoe Quinn or Anita Sarkeesian.
00:04:35
Speaker
And we talked about like how that spawned gamer gate and the methodology that went behind that. And even a little bit of like what came out of there, like Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn, both starting different organizations to help fight back against some of this stuff. Zoe Quinn- Which is awesome. Yeah, that's, it's great stuff. I'm very happy about that. Oh, actually- It's just so, oh, go ahead. And then I'll go.
00:05:04
Speaker
I recently, I went back to one of my favorite podcasts from a while back. They had been on hiatus and I just had not really gotten around to listening to some of their older stuff. Well, newer but older.
00:05:22
Speaker
And it turns out they did an entire episode about Davis Arini, who we talked about was the guy with like the little like the whiskey and the sometimes lit cigarette and the cigarette. Oh, I was thinking about him the other day and like, uh, I hated it and I loved it at the same time because just thinking about him is so weird. I'm so mad. I know about him now. He apparently did a matrix four review. Um, that is,
00:05:52
Speaker
absolutely hysterical if you know anything about The Matrix. He just gets every goddamn part of it wrong. So I'm looking very much forward to watching that in my free time. And a great thing, a thing that made me very happy about that is he had like maybe 200 views on that. So like he went from being a very brief star in all of this
00:06:21
Speaker
to everyone thinking he was laughable and not paying any attention to him. I love his comment burned out fast, thankfully. But what I was going to say, though, was I'm just glad that like these people who like, I mean, at least with Gamergate, we haven't heard. Well, Anita was kind of part of it, really. But
00:06:41
Speaker
Just the fact that they were able to do something awesome, like coming out of like such a horrible experience, probably like a horrible part of their life. Like, and they were able to just be like, I'm going to try and make this world better. You know, it was so happy to me. Yeah, that's super awesome. So I will forever be clapping for that. So happy things in the final episode.
00:07:07
Speaker
We do have some happy things to go over. We unfortunately do have to start, though, with a little bit of what came out of what we discussed last episode.
00:07:19
Speaker
So the high-profile victimization of both Peter Simetti and Edwin Boyette, that helped to fill a narrative hole in the comics gate mythology. See, the online harassment lobbed at trans and female creators left the general public extremely wary or largely turned off by the idea of associating with the group or even engaging with their ideas, which makes sense. If you see people being shitty, you don't necessarily want to be part of that. Very true.
00:07:46
Speaker
Having two prominent figures harassed in a very public and dangerous manner were at least tangentially related to the group provided a convenient excuse for some of their actions, even if Samedi's involvement was through remaining neutral or from circumstantial evidence. Like Ethan Van Schuyver's immediate push to blame the anti-comicscape crowd and to highlight these incidents, the moment they happened was crucial to fulfilling this role.
00:08:15
Speaker
Now the argument could be made that their actions were bad because they had to deal with this level of engagement from their enemies. Perhaps more importantly, they could position themselves as the real victims in their campaign. You know, if you can point to a really shitty thing happening to you, you can say, look, I'm the victim here. Yeah. The only downside is that Peter Simetti had still not claimed to be Comics Gate and thus the only Comics Gate publishers were either run by
00:08:40
Speaker
a devout Christian nationalist, or were indie groups crowdfunded specifically for their fans. Regardless of how often people like Van Skyver would loudly proclaim their movement was massive, this severely limited their audiences. Crowdfunded campaigns exceeded their goals, sure, but the idea was to branch out and grow bigger. For this, they still needed a mainstream outlet friendly to their cause.
00:09:07
Speaker
In July of 2020, a Twitter user pointed out that Dynamite Entertainment's publisher, Nick Barucci, made a surprising appearance on a comics gate stream.
00:09:17
Speaker
The company itself was famous for publishing comics like The Boys, James Bond, Game of Thrones, John Wick, Red Sonja, and Vamporella. So there was a much larger audience than that of like the indie publisher, Alterna. Yeah, like I know those names. That's pretty big. That means something. Oh, no. I'm stressed now. We're only like 10 minutes in and now I'm stressed.
00:09:45
Speaker
So the prospect of a publisher cozying up to a group widely known for their hateful attacks left many uneasy and others angry. Comic book fans who opposed Comixgate flooded Twitter and other social media sites to let it be known that this course of events needed to be stopped. And this only grew louder when Dynamite launched their own crowdfunding campaign for a Vengeance of Vamparela variant cover.
00:10:06
Speaker
Dynamite had a history of crowdfunding variant covers for their comics, so this would require little to no attention for most, except for this time, they featured the character of Cecil from the indie comic Cash Grab by writer Cecil Jones and artist Donald DeLay. Cash Grab is a comic largely funded by the common-state community, but the real reason for the outrage is that both Jones and DeLay have a long history of awful behavior online, including several racist or sexist tweets.
00:10:35
Speaker
Jones' association with Comixgate and Ethan Van Schuyver in particular did little to quell the growing frustration creators and fans had with Dynamite. Almost immediately after these events were made public, resignations poured in. So basically you have Dynamite Entertainment doing a crowdfunding campaign and they're going to use
00:10:57
Speaker
artists that were very much associated with comics gate and very much problematic even outside of that. And people did not fucking have this. Okay. So then they have people resigning from that company because they're like, we don't like the decisions that they're making. Right. Okay.
00:11:17
Speaker
So, several of the high-profile talent behind comics like Red Sonja and Pathfinder made public statements on their way out, just as Heavy Metal Ban Gwar removed their own comic from the company. I don't know if you know the Ban Gwar. They're fucking wild. I don't. But Pathfinder sounds familiar.
00:11:36
Speaker
Oh, you know, no, it's not familiar because Pathfinder is just a different kind of tabletop role play game. Um, it's just like D and D's cousin with different math. So wrong nerd genre, putting back on comic book nerd hat. My bad.
00:11:56
Speaker
So things were taking a downward turn, and in response, Dynamite decided to release a statement from publisher CEO, Nick Barucci, as they ended their commitment to the Cecil Varrant cover stating that they didn't think the cover would be so polarizing. Many creators shared their surprise. Because it was just one cover, right? Just one cover? Right. But it's a particular character, and it's just very strange to choose these people. You know what I mean? Right.
00:12:26
Speaker
So many of the creators shared their surprise that a mainstream publisher would risk being associated with a group widely known for their hateful tactics. Writer Karlo Pacheco spoke to ComicBook.com about this fear in detail.
00:12:39
Speaker
Quote, the final line for me was I think two weeks ago. That was just when screenshots were being posted of Nick Marucci being on Comic Skate podcast and apparently paying to get his comments promoted on a Comic Skate podcast. I was just like, yeah, I'm good, I'm done.
00:12:57
Speaker
So this was unfortunately not the first time that Dynamite had made Pacheco uncomfortable. Earlier in the year, Barucci gave the keynote address at an annual Comics Pro industry summit, where some familiar themes seem to appear on the subject of culture wars. Before we dig too far into this, I think it's relevant to discuss what Barucci had to say on the subject of being a young fan. Okay. Quote.
Nick Barucci on Community and Cancel Culture
00:13:23
Speaker
I made new friends at the comic store because it was a haven where I could talk to people about comics and to get excited for when I would have money to buy more comics in this foster community in the shop. There are sliding doors that happen in life. Here's mine. My parents sent me to a private and elite high school and it sucked. I was the nerd. I read comics. I didn't like sports. I wore hand-me-down clothes. Oh, and my name was Nicola.
00:13:50
Speaker
Not endearing, high school really sucked, but I was able to get through it all with some friends in the comics and heroes I loved, Barry Allen, Matt Murdock, Hal Jordan, Prince Namor, and others. So, Barucci's experience in high school mirrors many young comic book fans, down to finding some of the only solace available through the fictional four-color worlds presented by Marvel, DC, and others.
00:14:11
Speaker
Yeah. And the way he's like talking about it, like definitely, you know, like I, I think I said it in the first episode, like I have more comfort talking about these things in a comic book store or like in person with people. So it's like, you know, he definitely paints the picture accurately. So.
00:14:32
Speaker
At least with that beginning part, you know? It is an isolating experience to be so into something that is like a niche topic that you can only really find others in a very specific spot. The comic book stores fulfill a very weird need. Yeah, because it's like you can then go there. Like, you know, if you go to a Barnes and Nobles, like, you know, you've got every genre.
00:15:01
Speaker
So like, sure, you might feel a little weird, like going into like, you know, your graphic novel section, you might just be like, oh my God, they're gonna think I'm like, weird. But if you're going into a comic book store, it's like, everybody is going there for the same reason. So it's a little more like, you know, okay, there's this pressure that shouldn't be there, just lift it off. Yeah. And in addition to that, like I recently went to a Barnes and Noble and
00:15:27
Speaker
I spent a lot of time just kind of looking around different spots. And I ended up at one point in the graphic novel section. And there was an older guy there who I wanted to get into specific comic books. And he was like pulling people that work there and asking them a lot of questions. Most of them didn't really like have the most knowledge on these things. Like I kind of listened. Yeah, they don't know. Yeah.
00:15:54
Speaker
I mean, you're working in a place where you have to know so much about everything, you know, whereas like comic books, you may not know about every comic book that comes in, but you can kind of help people out. You can move them here or there. It's, you know, worst case, you'll kind of know what publishers to think of, what genres to think of, things like that. Yeah. And it's, it's weird because like in,
00:16:23
Speaker
for Nick Barucci to go through this. I think he's really getting an idea of what it is like to form your community. So essentially, Barucci found
00:16:40
Speaker
this community to be like a home, you know, that comic book shop was a second home for him. And he underlines this concept when discussing the relationship between publishers and retailers later on stating, we are family, we can argue, but we need to find the middle ground and work together. And that means not always getting 100% of what we want.
00:17:03
Speaker
So, Barucci is aware of the collaborative and restorative nature that having a community, especially one built by and for outsiders, can be for those that are in need. This intense relationship between consumers, fictional media, and corporations is what fosters the feeling of deep connection with the material and the sincerely felt betrayal if any element of this triad is changed or damaged. The downside to such strong correlations like this is that when they change, like with Gamergate,
00:17:33
Speaker
includes representing or more people like queer folks. If you try to add more family, then the outrage is directed at any of those alterations. This is particularly harmful when those same changes are the ones that would bring in other outsiders, regardless of their vulnerability or similarities and circumstances to the original members.
00:17:57
Speaker
This is in part why it is alarming to see dynamite be supportive of Comkskate or Barucci's comments further in this keynote address about cancel culture. Like, you can't say I made a community that is- Yeah, because it's like, I don't know, when he's talking about, you know, the feeling of like the outsiders and like, you know, the points of having a community on a surface level, like it does sound like, if anything, that he's anti.
00:18:26
Speaker
gamer or comics gate. I got my gates confused. Oh God. There's too many gates. Um, cause yeah, like, cause then it would be like, yeah, why would you be opposed then to having just new material out there in the world? But you know, obviously they're not just accepting that quote as a
00:18:49
Speaker
You know as it is it's a thing where like you can say and you kind of feel a particular way But like there needs to be a little bit of introspection here if you're saying that like I want to Address everyone. Well, if you're addressing the people that are excluding others You are helping that exclusion. Yeah, you know and
00:19:17
Speaker
He goes on further to talk about cancel culture and how that affects us. And I'm gonna quote a little bit more because I think this is also kind of important.
00:19:26
Speaker
So he says, I'm going to say something that may come across as too blunt, but I feel it needs to be said. The overwhelming majority of retailers are communicative and are up for discussions. At times, there is a retail minority that are loud and the equivalent to keyboard cops, and they may not realize it, but they border on bullying.
00:19:50
Speaker
They prefer cancel culture over discussion and understanding and mutual cooperation. Cancel culture for some has allowed politics and personal views to affect the comments you order or the experience your fans have at your store. We need to be open to everything. We need to service everyone. Which is like mind boggling here because he is trying to denounce people who are saying like, hey, don't be a dick online.
00:20:19
Speaker
while describing the exact issue that they are fighting against, right? Like... Yeah, his... I don't know, I feel like he's kind of giving like that classically like political like statements where they're just so like
00:20:37
Speaker
vague and you don't really like you know, I don't know if I just heard that out of context and I didn't like if I heard it before we did the podcast Yeah, I would I would be so confused on what this man is trying to like what question he would be answering right now his pleas for understanding and acceptance are there like a little bit they're admirable to an extent if you just take them at their
00:21:05
Speaker
their surface-level word, you know? If you dig any deeper, you just fall into a really shitty hole. It's the balance fallacy, right? This occurs when two sides of an argument are assumed to have equal or comparable value without regards to the merits. In this instance, Barucci wants it to be clear that those taking a stand against Christian nationalists like Box Day or outright harassers like Richard C. Meyer and Ethan Van Schuyver are the problem.
00:21:35
Speaker
When Ruchi claims cancel culture is stifling creativity within the marketplace, he is stating this while a group is actively campaigning against diversity. Their stated goals relate to apolitical storytelling, but we've already discussed in exhaustive detail how this actually means only their specific form of politics is acceptable. You see this shit on Fox News when they bring up, let's say, climate change.
00:22:03
Speaker
You have a scientist representing the like 90% of scientists who agree that climate change is real and that it is made much more of a problem due to man's involvement. And they put that person representing 90% of people up against one other person. And so you're giving the look of like a 50-50 split when it's clearly not. No.
00:22:34
Speaker
The other main problem with the idea of cancel culture is that the consequences of being canceled never seem to have extremely long lasting effects. Like famously canceled comedians like Louis C.K. or political journalists like Mark Halperin still have lucrative careers even though they may not have the same status that they once did. You don't really get anything out of that.
00:22:59
Speaker
It's just like, I don't know, like whenever people kind of are like, oh, like cancel culture is stupid, like all this stuff, like they're to an extent, I'm like, yeah, like it kind of is. But that doesn't mean, like I'm all for people taking accountability of their shit though. But to me, I guess I just think like at this point, they're so different. Because if you're taking accountability for your shit, you're accepting the consequences of the thing that you did wrong.
00:23:26
Speaker
but that doesn't really happen. So as we've seen. Facing consequences is seen as like the most horrific thing that you can possibly go through by some of these people. And like just the idea that you might face some consequences for what you have done is it's
00:23:54
Speaker
That it's terrifying to them Yeah, but like chuck dixon we've talked about before he's not guaranteed a job regardless of how much work he's done in the past, right so Having a specific job or a specific form of entertainment. That's not a human right so Telling someone like you have done you're like you're a comedian you have done Countless things that are harmful to a particular community
00:24:24
Speaker
Yeah. Louis CK, let's just go with him. Sure. You have done things that are harmful. We are no longer going to work with you. So, he is not, even though he is a comedian, he is not guaranteed the job of a comedian.
00:24:43
Speaker
Right. Because, you know, he can go on and do something else. That's fine. And you know what? He made millions of dollars before he was canceled. So it's still not like life ending, you know? No, he's still secure. Like, even though he can't do his funnies anymore. Right.
00:25:04
Speaker
Barucci and other critics that claim this is a matter of free speech being shut down, all that does is reveal that they fundamentally don't understand how free speech within America works, and that the stated goal is to abolish the free speech of any that criticize them, saying like, hey, you are encroaching upon my free speech because you don't like a thing I said.
00:25:28
Speaker
One, no, that's not how that works. But two, you're saying you can't say this. You're not allowed to say bad things to me. Which is like not correct. I think people forget that, like, you know, kind of like you're saying where it's like, oh, I can say whatever I want because it's free speech. It's like, OK, well, you can't yell fire in theater like.
00:25:52
Speaker
Also, in America, free speech means the government cannot tell you what you are allowed to say. And you cannot be arrested by the government for saying a specific thing. If you caused a problem because of what you said, that's different. But you are allowed to have a political opinion and say your political opinion. That's fine.
00:26:27
Speaker
You are guaranteed a job because like free speech says that you can say these things. Yeah. If you don't line up with the companies, like, you know, whatever mission statement or whatever kind of vision they're going for, they don't have to hire you. Like, much like you don't have to share your shitty opinions to the world on Twitter every day. Right.
00:26:47
Speaker
if the government steps in, that's bad. That is what free speech is covered under in America.
00:26:54
Speaker
or in Ethan Vinskeiver's case, his endless live streams that he comes to. Yeah, on his weird YouTube channel where everything is scripted and makes me feel uncomfortable. So he does live streams. This is a complaint I see constantly against him, because he's always late on fulfilling his job duties.
00:27:21
Speaker
He does cyber frog comic book He's always late in doing that but he spends hours of his day on YouTube. Yeah his live streaming with people and it's like yeah, if you want to do that, that's fine, but like You also have another job, you know, maybe like live stream doing your job. I mean people do that all the time who birds one stone, baby
00:27:48
Speaker
So Dynamite has gone through some of the stuff before, including from Comixgate. During the protests in the aftermath of the George Floyd murder at the hands of a police officer, Dynamite had included some of their comics in a bundle that was about and by persons of color. So money raised from this bundle went to charities like the Bail Project to help those needing to meet bail,
00:28:09
Speaker
To be reunited with their families. Yeah, there's stuff like that many in the comic skate community were angered by their involvement. This is possible Oh Stupid people shut up This is possibly due to dynamite having previously supported high-profile members of comic skate Such as when they commissioned Ethan Van Skyver to produce variant covers using his creator own characters and dynamite staples. Oh
00:28:34
Speaker
So again, they did that one variant cover that caught a lot of attention, but they have in the past had Ethan Van Schuyver on, to do other variant covers. Well, they wanted to include everybody. Right.
00:28:50
Speaker
So this event in particular, the bundle to help the bail project after George Floyd's murder. Which sounds very great. I feel like not a lot of companies did that. So that's cool. No. A company actually did something. That's nice. It's great. Yeah. That brought new focus on Barucci when Vince Kiver himself took to YouTube in the aftermath of the Cecil Variant cover.
Controversies and Legal Battles in Comicsgate
00:29:14
Speaker
Wait, can I guess what happens? Oh, yeah.
00:29:17
Speaker
Did Ethan Van Helsing write a scathing review on our on our dynamite man? It's because he didn't do what he wanted, but he used to do what he kind of wanted. It's kind of a little bit worse than that because he goes so far as to like reveal information he probably should not have. Oh, OK. I mean, I was close and I don't. You're on you're like.
00:29:48
Speaker
Guys, this is character development. I went and it's being like, oh gosh, oh no. I listened to like part of the first episode because it came out today. And I was like, wow. I laugh a lot at the end of my sentences, which I still do. That's not going to change. But I really had no clue what I was getting into. And now I like know shit. It's crazy. I don't know how to feel about that.
00:30:15
Speaker
You know a lot about this is shit that you're going, you're going to have like conversations with people at parties and you're going to be like, Oh, did you hear about this thing? And they'll be like, no, why would I have ever heard of this thing? And then they'll be like, and why have you heard of this thing? We know you. And I'll be like, I've been cursed in the best way. So in the aftermath of the Cecil variant cover, um, Ben Skyber went to Twitter and, and,
00:30:44
Speaker
YouTube in particular, to detail how the CEO of Dynamite had been secretly helping him for years, but kept it quiet in order to protect the publishing. So during this video, Van Skyver repeatedly mentions the meetings that the two men had and the help he received learning everything he could about publishing before stating that his working relationship with the company was over in response to how they handled the criticism of working with Comixgate.
00:31:13
Speaker
This, if true, would represent that both the largest comic book publisher willing to at least implicitly promote Comixgate, they had been involved for a while. And also the first time a publisher was completely rebuked after showing their support. Oh wow.
00:31:35
Speaker
Nick Barucci, who was helping Ethan Van Skyver, according to him, was keeping it on the DL so that, like, people weren't coming after Dynamite. And then they did one thing that Ethan Van Skyver didn't like, and he goes out and tells everyone about this. And again, it could be true, it could not be. I have no idea. But if it is, that's fucking weird. And why, like, why would you have done this?
00:32:02
Speaker
That's like some weird Greg Gatsby affair. It's just... And it's another example. Ethan Van Schuyver cut ties with someone who was no longer useful just like what had happened with Edwin Boyette or Moose Bauman. People who walked away from projects. So Moose Bauman walked away from coloring a comic that Van Schuyver
00:32:31
Speaker
had worked on. And when he did, he found that comics gate supporters attacked him and made fun of his wife's cancer diagnosis. So like, I feel like we've talked about this before. No, that's just, it's just shit that keeps happening. It's history repeating itself.
00:32:51
Speaker
Oh, I fell off the wagon. I was on it and then I fell off. Man, I could have sworn there was another one where people were making fun of somebody's cancer. Oh, it is, but it's just not this particular person. Oh, that's so sad.
00:33:06
Speaker
It's the gift that keeps on giving. It's the sinkhole that keeps getting shit thrown into it. I'm gonna live by the sinkhole theme now. I like it. It only took me five episodes to find it. Now I'm stuck with it for the end. So Van Skyver's parasitic approach to relationships keeps ending
00:33:30
Speaker
with a complete denouncement of the other party, except in this particular instance, it left Comixgate without a major publisher once again. And that brings us to...
00:33:42
Speaker
the cum dumpster aficionado, Richard C. Meyer. Oh no, he's back. Oh no, it all went wrong. We're going to spend some time talking about him today because there is some very fun stuff that actually came out of this. After these five episodes, well now six episodes, the C has to stand for cum, right?
00:34:05
Speaker
I have no idea what it stands for. And you know, he changed. It does now. He changed his YouTube channel. Like it used to be comics and diversity. And now it's, it's like your boy Zach or something like that. And I, I have no idea, like I'm not going to watch his videos. I don't care that much. It's also really sad though. Cause every time his name comes up, I unfortunately think of
00:34:29
Speaker
Oh, John C. Riley? And then I'm like, oh no, what did he do? But it's not him. Thank God it's not him. In 2015, years before ComicScape made its name and loads of cash, Meyer was able to successfully crowdfund a comic series known as Jawbreakers. The series itself isn't that important, but it lays the groundwork for a hilarious string of events.
00:34:55
Speaker
First, it should be noted that Jawbreakers just made its funding goal, which is a far cry from how comic skate projects specifically under Meyer would perform later. The fact that before Meyer's notoriety was firmly established, he was just barely able to raise $3,500, brings into sharp focus a monetary incentive for why pushing comic skate was so important for him on an individual level.
00:35:18
Speaker
The money raised for this comic is applaudable, and many would hope to get even a fraction of that for some of their projects. But it's nothing compared to the more than $400,000, a Jawbreakers book drawn by Malin and with covers by Van Schuyver that Meyer was able to raise with comics to get support. Like he went from like doing a very look $3,500. Great. I am happy for you. That's wonderful. Yeah, I'd love to have that.
00:35:47
Speaker
$400 fucking thousand dollars brought in by people. That's a jump. People are just funneling money to them, you know? And look, good on you, I guess. It's just fucking weird. And even after Meyer is falling out with his chosen community, which we will get to a little bit later, he was still able to pull in over $106,000 for a single project. So even after Meyer is
00:36:16
Speaker
not maybe the best person, uh, uh, under the comics gate banner. Um, he's still, he's still, well, I mean, by their standards, he is still getting a lot of money. You know, like there was, there's a vocal amount of people that want to help.
00:36:35
Speaker
So with an immense amount of funding behind a single book, Meyer now had to focus on distribution. And that's where Antarctic Press, a small publisher known for satirical political comics from both sides of the spectrum, suddenly becomes useful. The two parties reached an agreement where Antarctic Press would publish and distribute Meyer's book, with the profits being split between the two.
00:36:56
Speaker
The announcement of this partnership drew immediate pushback from several retailers and prominent comic book professionals. Some of the comic book shop owners refused to carry the book altogether, so Meyer decided to tweet the names and addresses of those stores, causing a bombardment of negative reviews from those opposed to this practice.
00:37:16
Speaker
And unfortunately, that's just the beginning of this fucking story. So we start off with like, it's doxxing comic book shops. I don't know if that's a thing, but I guess like... I mean, it is now that they did it. They were just kind of like, hey, this specific comic book shop doesn't want to carry my thing. Here's their phone number. Here's their address, which is what you were doing is saying, go harass this person.
00:37:43
Speaker
So stupid. Have these people just never had a business rejection in their life? No, I'm sure they have. They can't handle... Their heads just got too big. They turned into little ego balloons. And I think there's this...
00:38:06
Speaker
they need to feel victimized in order to get their point across. But then there's also the idea that the slightest bit of pushback means that they're shutting everything down, you know? Which is so stupid. It is. No one cares that much. Just stop being a dick, and it's not a big problem anymore. You are not being discriminated against.
00:38:35
Speaker
That's not what this is.
00:38:37
Speaker
Look, he kind of is, but he's being discriminated against because of his own fucking actions. It's not like, it's not for anything else. Yeah, because of political opinion. Like if it was anything else, like, you know, if it was like race or orientation or creed or whatever, I'd be like, you know what? Yeah. Give those people a hard time because they did discriminate you because of like personal things that you can't change. But you can a hundred percent change your opinion in the way that you just behave. Like.
00:39:07
Speaker
Sit down. Like I don't like this comic is different from saying this company is destroying the comic book industry because they're letting minorities in. Like those are wildly different. And imagine like there probably were some comic books that were just like or comic book shops that were just like yeah we just like you know this is what I don't know these are the comics we focus in I'm not looking to add any new material
00:39:35
Speaker
Yeah. And he's just going to assume probably that it's like, oh, it's because I'm part of comicskeet. I'm going to fuck it up now. Oh my God. Sit down, take a nap, eat a cookie, feel better the next day. This is where we come to Mark Wade, who's a comic writer famous for his run on The Avengers, The Flash, Justice League, Captain America, X-Men, Archie, and pretty much
00:40:02
Speaker
like any famous character in comic books. Yeah, those I know. Mark Wade has written a fuckload of these. I actually have a few of Mark Wade's books in front of me. He's good. He's not my favorite writer, but he does a very good job. He's very serviceable and he knows the characters. He knows what he's doing.
00:40:29
Speaker
He decides to write a post on Facebook where he detailed calling Antarctic Press to leave a message inquiring if they were aware of Meyer's online behavior. So he just calls them up and he's like, are you sure you want to work with, like this person has said and done these things. Yeah.
00:40:47
Speaker
Shortly after, Antarctic Press announced that they would no longer publish Jawbreakers. And in the announcement, they specifically point out the blurred lines between art and artist when it comes to this comic and the difficulty with which they made their decision. Essentially, Meyer was too much of a potential problem for them to risk a business relationship. But unfortunately, Meyer did not see it that way. Look, there is a weird blurry line. I still have a bunch of Harry Potter stuff.
00:41:17
Speaker
I was thinking the same thing. And I still like my Harry Potter stuff. I'm not a big fan of JK Rowling. And I'm not going to throw out the stuff that I have.
00:41:32
Speaker
You know, I just acknowledge the context and, you know, you know, you and you then interpret the book how you need to like, there's nothing outright offensive about the books, you know, they're just.
00:41:48
Speaker
They're a young adult story that gives hope to people. Right. Which is cool. In previous episodes I've used Orson Scott Card as one of my things because I like Ender's Game and I like that series.
00:42:06
Speaker
Speaker for the Dead is one of my favorite sci-fi books. It's just really cute and weird. Orson Scott Card is a huge homophobe and I would never buy his books from a retailer. I would just get them secondhand or something.
00:42:23
Speaker
Um, and it doesn't, it doesn't take away, like I acknowledge that he has a particular way of thinking and it does bleed a little bit into the books that he writes just same as JK Rowling stuff leads into Harry Potter. But like you can acknowledge that and still get something out of those books. But that's different. Like if I were going into a business relationship,
00:42:47
Speaker
I would never choose to go in with Orson Scott Carter, JK Rowling. Yeah, again, it's the whole like a company has a face and they know that what they want to sell and they know what kind of personality, what kind of like, you know, the whole point of a mission statement, which is such like, you know, first level, like business degree kind of crap. But like, it's true. Like that's what they have going on.
00:43:14
Speaker
And they are allowed to reject you if, you know, you're not speaking what they want you to speak. Right. So taking to Twitter, Meyer publicly accused Wade of harassing Antarctic Press into dropping the title, specifically claiming that he received a call from the owner who was crying and begging forgiveness because he couldn't handle the bullying that Wade directed toward him.
00:43:39
Speaker
which definitely does not sound true to me. I don't know. No, that doesn't at all. I picture it anything just being like a Zoom meeting. Yeah, just like, hey, we're not doing this. We've decided to terminate and like, or like in the most passive way, like one of those just like weird around the bush sentences where it's like, wait, are we, are we done here? What's happening?
00:44:05
Speaker
So whether or not what he said is true, I have no evidence that it's not, but just based on what he fucking said, I don't think so. It's interesting. Now I'm thinking about it though. It also sounds like 100% one of those guys who's like, hey, do you want to go on a date? And then you're just like, no, sorry, I'm not interested. And they'll be like, whatever, you're a bitch anyway. And they'll be like, me? That's what this sounds like with business.
00:44:32
Speaker
It's interesting to see Meyer's reactions to the online abuse, considering the legions of fans that followed him and Ethan Van Skyver into doing the exact same things. Like he's saying, they're fucking bullying this company. And we're like, what the fuck do you think you've been doing? Again, sit down, take a nap.
00:44:52
Speaker
Meyer went further though and shared a post from Reddit and 4chan that claimed C.B. Cebulski from Marvel had received numerous angry emails from Antarctic Press threatening legal action against Mark Wade's conduct. Supposedly, Wade threatened physical violence against the company for publishing Meyer's book. And all of this is unsubstantiated and Antarctic Press actually publicly denied ever contacting anyone at Marvel over anything to do with Meyer.
00:45:19
Speaker
This whole thing is stupid. Threatening physical violence against a company. What do you want to do? Punch their elevator?
00:45:32
Speaker
The book itself is just a small man kicking ferns in front of the corporation building. That's 100% what somebody would do. They wouldn't be fighting people. That's not what we do here with comic book communities. We are impersonal. We're throwing planters at nothing.
00:46:00
Speaker
So the book itself was even published, but from the new comic skate publisher started by Meyer called Splato Comics. And like, so again, the book was published and distributed. Yeah, it's just the one publisher that like, it didn't go with him. So like, overall, this would be just another incidence of comic skates squandered opportunities due to their own actions, if not for what came immediately after.
00:46:27
Speaker
So nearly four months after the public back and forth between the two, Richard C. Meyer sued Mark Wade for not only the intimidation of Antarctic press, but also for defamation. According to the complaint, Wade damaged Meyer's career by characterizing him as racist, continually harassing minorities and associated with white supremacists. And if he's wondering why someone would do something like that, I have a few fucking episodes of this show I would like to play for him.
00:46:59
Speaker
No, and we'll get to why Two years ago, right? His complaint included that these assertions caused Meyer to miss out on opportunities to appear at conventions or search for new talent Which is why he was demanding a jury trial and damages in excess of $75,000
00:47:19
Speaker
The issue quickly galvanized both sides of the community with crowdfunding campaigns started to fund the legal battles. Wade took to his website and across social media to explain how the lawsuit represented not just standing up for himself, but for all women, trans people, queer people, and the people of color who work in the comic book industry. And a bit hyperbolic, but I would agree with that.
00:47:40
Speaker
You know, uh, the legal battle would continue until 2020 when a joint statement was released stating that Meyer had voluntarily dismissed the lawsuit. So about two years ago, they just said, fuck it. We're not even going to like, we're done. You know?
00:47:55
Speaker
Part of Meyer's argument is that the lawsuit came about due to jawbreakers losing out on a publishing deal and since the book was later published and COVID-19 significantly impacted both the industry and the world, there was no reason to continue in a legal setting.
00:48:11
Speaker
Right. This is this is all true and good on Meyer for the dismissal, but I think it also does a disservice to our show if we don't look into any other reasons that this might have happened. I was going to say, like, I think somebody realized that they were wrong and didn't want to deal with the consequences.
00:48:31
Speaker
When we started this series by detailing the events leading up to and including Gamergate, there was a reason I wanted to heavily focus on some of the frontrunners like Milo Yiannopoulos or Mike Cernovich. Throughout the onslaught of harassment, the inevitable benefactors of attention were those who could speak loudly and with enough vitriol to gather support. This had the effect of both normalizing this behavior within and to an extent surrounding the community. But it also meant that these people were primed
00:48:57
Speaker
as front runners of the movement and to some, demagogues. With the rise of this specific type of attention economy came opportunities for actual financial gain. After all, if they hold the minds and at least some respect of thousands of people, how hard could it be to also earn their dollars?
00:49:16
Speaker
When discussing these specific events, it is important to remember that the currency that they barter with is both attention and monetary. When criticized for what they say, they always position themselves as underdogs fighting censorship, and therefore are deserving of more attention and more money for the fight. Richard C. Meyer, Ethan Van Skyver, and others in Comic Skate are not quiet about how much money matters to their movement.
00:49:42
Speaker
When they flaunt how much a particular project made via a crowdfunding campaign, they use that as a way of validating the emotions of their followers. The comic book community outside of Comixgate is failing in their eyes, and any money that is made is always seen to be lesser than that of a Comixgate project. The logic that they use is that if you donate to our projects, then you are right and can use the act itself as evidence of such.
00:50:08
Speaker
And there are many flaws to this thing with perhaps the biggest being that there are hundreds more titles of mainstream comics as there are comic skate projects, which means that the pool of money is split up much more. Right. And in addition, most publishers don't crowdfund all of their projects and instead operate on a smaller scale budget with much clearer oversight to how that money is actually spent, which is rarely ever seen in comic skate. So you get like all of this money and they never really tell you where it goes.
00:50:38
Speaker
Yeah. It's kind of like with the Academy or like the foreign press or something like that. Like why all people are like mad at the Golden Globes because like they all just really want to meet celebrities. And it's like money goes into that, like, you know, organization and it somehow gets distributed even though those people aren't technically paid, but a hundred percent of those people are getting that money. So.
00:51:01
Speaker
So this brings the focus back around to Gamergate and Meyer. The lawsuit filed against Wade garnered lots of attention and fulfilled a deep emotional need for comicscape followers.
00:51:13
Speaker
Wade was seen as the leftist comics writer who was always inserting politics into his books. And now Comicsgate had a much more direct fight against a perceived enemy. With this more direct fight comes more direct participation and therefore, fundraising. And this is how the feelings of victimization and vindication collide.
00:51:33
Speaker
This is where you get people donating thousands of dollars to like a legal fund. And also we're gonna buy this book because we're gonna show that leftist comics writer that we are big and we are important and our feelings matter. So the legal battle itself didn't really matter. What mattered was that attention right before it.
00:51:57
Speaker
Yes. He probably spent thousands of dollars going through all of this, but I'm sure he made it all back. Oh, yeah. Especially if the whole trial didn't even happen. You still have some legal fees. Oh, for sure. I'm sure. Well, you're for a little bit of his time. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah.
00:52:25
Speaker
I mean I can't say for certain that that was the idea behind it, but I can definitely say that that is something that regardless of
00:52:36
Speaker
if he actually intended it to, that was the outcome. So when dealing with those who have a need to fulfill a victimhood narrative, it's easy to note that the most beneficial elements at their disposal is subtlety and cleverness. I mean, that is how you sort of skirt around a lot of this. You have to be a little bit subtle and you have to be somewhat clever in order to get your narrative across in any way where people might buy it.
00:53:05
Speaker
Yeah, like if you're not really a victim, but you're trying to play a victim, you just have to be manipulative. Right. It can't be obvious how little power you have or how little anyone is trying to oppress you. They need to be seen as both the ones who can turn the tide, but not without the support in some way of their fans.
00:53:22
Speaker
And this is a delicate line to walk because if you fall further to one side, there is no need for your followers to support you because you're just as ineffectual as they tend to be. And if you fall further on the other side, you shouldn't need their support. You're already powerful. Why do you need your followers to support you? So this balance is kept through that clever use of subtlety to present yourself as oppressed in a very specific set of instances.
00:53:47
Speaker
So our next subject, John De La Rose, lacks this fucking ability. He is not subtle and he's not fucking clever. Part of why- Oh, he just sounds like one of those just big himbo. Part of why I kept coverage of this man- I think in a bad way. To the very end is because while he shows up frequently in comics, gate-specific topics, he is laughably bad at the game. During my research, I found several specific claims
00:54:17
Speaker
that only ever seemed to come directly from John de la Rose. And he has complained on several occasions of persecution based on his deeply held religious beliefs, only for it to be revealed that he was never sanctioned in any way or that it was due to his harassment of others. So he's just real fucking loud. And then people are like, you did this thing. We know it. This is why. In one video, he stated that alternate comics was publicly supportive of comics games.
00:54:47
Speaker
I almost wrote that in because that was repeated several times. But the only source I ever found was this fucking video by this guy. And I haven't found any indication of this from anywhere else. So repeatedly throughout that same video, he affirms his status as a journalist to give himself credibility. He's like, hey, I'm a journalist, dude. I know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm a journalist. So I'm giving you all of the facts.
00:55:14
Speaker
And that's wonderful, except I'm going to spend a couple of short paragraphs ripping that credibility apart. We have too much to cover before we end our look at Comic Skate to spend an ounce of extra effort on someone who barely deserves mentioning. So here's a list of why this man should never be taken seriously as a journalist or as a fucking person. John Delarose is a science fiction author, one who often loudly proclaims his status as Christian, conservative, and Hispanic.
00:55:41
Speaker
After announcing his attention to wear a body cam at Worldcon, he was banned from attending due to what was seen as an intimidation tactic. After being removed from their site, Worldcon posted a statement of how they were in the process of removing racist, bullying elements from their convention. The use of the term racist without much merit is unfortunate since Delrose took this to mean that the convention was calling him a racist and decided on the advice of Christian nationalist Box Day
00:56:10
Speaker
to sue the organizers. So he gets called a racist and then goes to a racist to figure out what to do.
00:56:17
Speaker
Great. What a smart man. He sued the organizers, San Francisco Science Fiction Conventions Incorporated. And this was eventually settled out of court. Delarose then sent a letter to Vox Day, which was published on his blog stating, in early 2017, Vox Day gave me a platform on this blog to speak the truth about how the science fiction publishing and fandom communities had become nothing more than the toxic
00:56:44
Speaker
gossip-filled political arms of the extreme Satanist, globalist elites.
00:56:53
Speaker
If any of that sounds familiar, it's because it is identical rhetoric to Alex Jones of InfoWars, which finds most of its conspiracy background from anti-Semitic propaganda like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. And I have no proof that this is where Delarose gets his information, but Fox Day has been on InfoWars a few times, and this conspiracy is one that isn't only attributed to Jones.
00:57:18
Speaker
I mostly just want to point out how interconnected these people and ideas really are. So just within this first story, we have ties to a Christian nationalist and assertions that the publishing community is run by satanic elites. This is an odd stance for a journalist to take. So I went to his website. It really sounds like an onion article.
00:57:38
Speaker
I fucking know. I went to his website to see what journalistic credits he had, and it turns out he is a contributor to the Federalist.
00:57:49
Speaker
The Federalist is an online magazine known for their extremely right-wing views and a long list of reporting on misinformation about everything from vaccines to climate change. A quick glance at some of the articles written by Delarose show numerous articles about how political correctness is killing comics, how he was banned from Twitter after claiming transgenderism is a mental illness, and a guide to keeping your online browsing free of political propaganda, which is a bit fucking rich, coming from specifically him
00:58:18
Speaker
at specifically this website. You're not going to get any business if you share that article. This isn't the end of the issues with Dela Rose, though. Author Jim C. Hines collected a list on his website of the long history of trolling and harassment coming from Dela Rose, from which I'll be heavily referencing for the rest of this, which is not very long actually, but like I'm just going to just fucking highlight, right?
00:58:47
Speaker
It's it's wonderfully sourced and I recommend that everyone just take a quick glance over there because It was if you just Google John Tillerose, it's one of the first things that comes up which I fucking love
00:59:01
Speaker
John Delariz repeatedly insults others online by calling them autistic or some variation thereof. When not insulting others, he has spent his time complaining about being blackbald from Baycon in an act of discrimination when actually it turns out that they just rotate who they invite each year. And he was asked back then at the next year's event. So he's like, they're fucking, they're discriminated against me. I'm banned from going here. And that specific convention was like, no, we just rotate. You're coming back the, like,
00:59:31
Speaker
He's just not on the schedule. Right. In alignment with some of the people we discussed before, De La Rose has claimed that American Muslims should be forcibly converted to Christianity. He repeatedly uses or promotes homophobic slurs and often misgenders other authors.
00:59:47
Speaker
In short, Delarose has shown himself to be an absolute ass who can't handle being held accountable for his own actions. He is a waste of literacy. I cannot overstate this, just fuck this guy in all of his bullshit. He really does get like a D- on being a public figure.
01:00:05
Speaker
Like I'm a journalist I can't give him enough because he's he is doing things so it's like, you know, he gets a participation Sticker which I'm sure he would hate. I'm judging by what this man's about but There's really not a lot of effort in here I feel like D-minus
01:00:29
Speaker
There's not a lot of effort and it is also very heavily skewed. The fact that he's trying to pass himself off as a journalist and then going on about satanic globalist elites and crying about being banned from conventions is
01:00:59
Speaker
It's just, it's laughable, you know? Yeah, it's very silly. Silly is the word to describe many of the people of Art of Calvary's Gate. Yes. And I'm putting the label on him. Silly man. So we're gonna change gears a little bit and we're gonna talk about someone I've actually talked about before on this show.
01:01:27
Speaker
and how they tie him to Comic Skate. So in late 2018, previous subject of the show, Dave Simp, sent an open letter to Comic Book News and gossip website Leading Cool, and addressed his letter to Ethan Van Schuyver. At the time, Comic Skate and Van Schuyver were engaged in a heated debate over whether or not the late comic artist Darwin Cook would be supportive of their movement.
01:01:54
Speaker
This caught the attention of Cook's widow, Marcia Cook, who vehemently disagreed and spoke out against Comixgate as a whole by calling them crybaby losers. Oh, what's her name? Martha? Marcia. Oh, Marcia? You go, Marcia. Good on you. And Darwin Cook was a fantastic artist and writer. He did The New Frontier.
01:02:24
Speaker
which is a great book. They also made, they turned it into a DC animated movie. I think it might be my favorite DC animated movie. It's very like, it's its own thing. It has nothing to do with any of the other ones. But it's really good. It's set in like the, I think the fifties and it's right at the onset of the new crop of superheroes. It's an adaptation of the book. It's very good.
01:02:53
Speaker
Highly recommend it if you ever get a chance. I think it's on HBO if you have that. I do not, but maybe one day. So from there, after she called them crybaby losers, her Twitter feed was bombarded with a dog pile of disagreements. Basically everyone yelling at her because they're saying, basically we know your husband better than you.
01:03:15
Speaker
When Marcia pointed out that Van Skyver's followers continued to be transphobic about creators and also harass her, Van Skyver refused to denounce or call off any that were doing so. She specifically said, like, hey, they're doing this thing. Do you have anything to say? And he did not. He never answered that. Yeah. And this is where Dave Sims' letter comes into play. Okay.
01:03:40
Speaker
For those that haven't listened to the episodes about Dave Sim, which would be episodes 6 and 7 of last season titled Dave Fucking Sim, I'll give a brief description on who it is that we are discussing. Dave Sim is an independent comic creator who championed creators' rights, penned an epic 300 issue comic with only the artistic help of an amazingly talented background artist, and is a devout misogynist.
01:04:03
Speaker
I highly recommend listening to my previous episodes for a fuller understanding of just how misogynistic this person is, but to flesh it out a little further, he wrote several rants on how women use only emotions to make decisions and frequently pull logic away from men, started an argument with a female journalist within minutes of the interview beginning, and had to create a petition called Dave Sim is not a misogynist that anyone had to sign if they wanted to speak to him.
01:04:27
Speaker
The most important element of all of this, though, is that Dave Simm is also a groomer. Dave's letter to... So, we'll go a little bit more into this as we go on, but Dave's letter to Van Skyver was a show of support, which got the ball rolling on these two creators working together.
01:04:51
Speaker
Shortly after the publication of the letter, Van Skyver announced that Sim would be helping with cyber fraud, Van Skyver's creator-owned book. For those not plugged into the indie scene of comic books, this is a huge fucking deal. As much as Sim is as seen as the misogynist that he is, he's also seen as a masterful storyteller. There's a reason his comics still sell. I would not recommend reading them. It would just be supporting a terrible person.
01:05:21
Speaker
In my previous coverage, I did go through
01:05:27
Speaker
And I printed out, there's a series of issues later on in his run on Sarabus, his book, where he basically just writes prose, and he writes it as a character that's very clearly him. Right. And he spends long periods talking about how awful women are, basically. He talks about they are like,
01:05:56
Speaker
I forget this exact wording, but he basically describes them as like the black holes that suck the light out of men. It's pretty fucking awful. Yeah, he's pretty deep down in that misogyny well. And he claims it's not misogyny, he claims it's anti-feminism.
01:06:14
Speaker
Okay, but I won't get into it. I think you and I already know what I was probably gonna say. Unfortunately, for everyone that was involved in this, like Van Skyver and Dave Sim, Renfamous, who we've discussed previously, pointed out on Twitter, Sim's very strange relationship with a 14-year-old girl.
01:06:44
Speaker
Sim met the girl as a teenager and would sporadically draw pictures of her, even commenting on her beauty. They remained in contact until she was in her 20s when Sim admits that they had sex together. Afterward, he would write about how wrong that situation was and how wrong he was for acting on it, but claimed that the only law he broke was the MAN Act, which prohibits transporting a minor across state orders for illegal acts. Now it's generally used for
01:07:15
Speaker
It's generally used for prostitution. The idea is you cannot take a minor across state bounds for prostitution because then they can get you on a federal charge. He was never charged with such a crime, so that part could be accurate or just a misunderstanding of the law. His actions, however, were accurately described as grooming this child. You don't start a relationship with a teenager when you're an adult
01:07:47
Speaker
and continue to comment on their beauty like fly them places so that when they are of age you have sex with them. That's a lot like that one guy who drew for like Ren and Stimpy
01:08:04
Speaker
Oh, what happened here? I don't even know if I know about that. Oh God, what was his name? Oh, I hope I have the right artist, man. I really don't want to like mess this one up. This is the part of the podcast where Corinne actually knows something that Derek might not know. I found it, I know exactly. Wow. Right? It's, what's the guy's name? I don't know how to pronounce it. Crick Felucie?
01:08:35
Speaker
He was an animator on Ren and Stimpy and started reaching out to people when they were like 14 and 16.
01:08:46
Speaker
He did the same thing, but with young artists that were women. Young girls, he would groom them and be like, oh, you're going to be a great artist one day. Boobs. And it was weird. It was very inappropriate and not OK. But yeah, that reminds me of this Sims guy a lot. So comic books had their own Me Too movement.
01:09:16
Speaker
And, uh, one of the ones that, uh, one of the people that was called out on it was, uh, Warren Ellis. And, um, Warren Ellis, I actually was a big fan of his work, uh, which makes it a little bit, uh, harder for me to, um, to deal with because it's also like, when I go back and read some of his stuff, I have to keep that in the back of my mind. But one of the things that he was accused of was.
01:09:46
Speaker
Not necessarily like young teenage girls, but younger artists trying to break into the industry, you know? So like adults, but there's a clear power imbalance and you'd be like, oh, I'll help you. Yeah, like they're just out of like art school or like university or something. And he would do everything he could to sort of leverage his power over them.
01:10:07
Speaker
Uh, to start a, like a sexual relationship with them and then never actually like help them. Uh, it's unfortunately a common thing. Maybe not the 14 year old girl common. Uh, like maybe that part's not common, but like that use of power. Yeah. It's the power of the use. Mm-hmm. So Van Skyver's initial public response.
01:10:35
Speaker
to all of this information coming out was to defend Dave Sim by comparing his relationship with that of Elvis and Priscilla, which is actually true, but that doesn't quite let Sim off the hook so much as it shines a light on him. Yeah, that doesn't mean it's okay. It just means that this problem was happening years ago.
01:10:52
Speaker
People are also they did the same thing with like Robert plant and like whatever, you know, child he was dating at the time. Like, it's just a problem in 20 year intervals, like, well, and it's still happening everywhere all the time.
01:11:10
Speaker
like Ted Nugent goes on to Infowars and screams about how they're like they're out there grooming uh uh young young kids with these like the drag queen story hour things like you fuck you have been credibly accused of of
01:11:30
Speaker
very much grooming young young women like and like a drag queen story hour sounds fun i don't know what it is it what is it just like what's it oh what i can't remember it's just any of their names it's just drag queens they come in and they read stories that's it that sounds so fun
01:11:53
Speaker
It's great. No one gives a shit. I feel like that's the equivalent of someone dressing up as a princess and going to your birthday party. It's, I mean, basically. Yeah. It's cool people in cool costume playing a character. It's specifically on the right. Specifically, right-wing nut jobs are screaming about how this is a sexual thing.
01:12:21
Speaker
And it's like, I don't, like, what is sexual? Go home and sit down and take a nap. I'm just, that's the, that's the phrase of the week. Apparently is go home and take a nap. Just go to bed. Go to bed. It's bedtime. Go bed. Got bad thoughts. Go to bed. I just, man, I'm mad. So, um, eventually.
01:12:51
Speaker
Van Skyver, even though he went to Dave Simms' defense, he did relent and he decided to remove Dave Simms from the project altogether. So, good on you, Van Skyver. Kind of weird that it took you a while to get to there, but, like, fucking alright, man. We're behind you on this one, at least. And while this could have been handled much better, I do need to, like, I mean, I'm kind of being facetious when I say, like, good on you.
01:13:19
Speaker
Yeah. I do need to actually say like you did the right thing in this instance. Good job. Like you took a while to get there. Yeah. But eventually you did the right thing. Eventually. Let's be a little fair here. Well, if he had Dave Sim on there, it could have cut into his money. Yeah, exactly. So, uh,
01:13:46
Speaker
The main final thing that I want to discuss when it comes to comicscape, before we wrap everything up, I actually want to cover how not to cover them.
Media's Role in Fringe Debates
01:14:00
Speaker
So a common logical fallacy found in places like CNN, Fox or MSNBC is that of false equivalence. So when it's the same as sort of the balance fallacy, right? When two people are invited onto the show to debate the merits of the topic, this presents both sides as having an equal ground.
01:14:17
Speaker
When this topic is something like the efficacy of vaccines, it actually does more to bolster the argument of those that have little to no backing from the scientific community. The same thing applies when you talk about Comixgate, or you talk about a hate campaign in general.
01:14:35
Speaker
In 2018, the Jim Jeffery show on Comedy Central decided to run a piece on Richard C. Meyer. And while they're not a news outlet, there are still practices that can be followed to mitigate any harm that could come from such a piece. And while Meyer may have been roundly mocked during his exposure, Comedy Central's approach did little to expose why this man is a problem.
01:14:59
Speaker
So, I don't know, are you aware of Jim Jeffries? Do you know who Jim Jeffries is? He sounds familiar. Probably because he is on Comedy Central. I'm gonna look up a picture of him. He's an Australian comedian. He had an FX show that I actually quite liked. That was kind of based on his life. He has done pretty viral jokes about gun rights.
01:15:27
Speaker
He looks familiar. Yeah, so I like him to an extent. I will say he has very edgy comedy where he says a lot of the things that Comixgate will say. It's just very clear that he's joking during all of these, you know? Yeah, and then some people he might interview and think that it's like they're on his
01:15:51
Speaker
side or whatever. It's a weird thing because it's like I kind of get it when he when he he does a lot like he'll he'll do misogynistic jokes and it's weird because it's like I get that you are telling a joke and therefore I can kind of let my guard down and think it's funny. Um however. Yeah because it's like is he doing it like because some people will make like misogynistic jokes but have a level of sarcasm to it where it's like I'm telling this joke
01:16:21
Speaker
but I'm saying it in a sarcastic light so people can see how stupid that this legitimate thought would be. It's a bit of that. I will say sometimes it's hard to get that across. I've watched some of his stuff and I've been like, oh geez. Oh, okay. Because it's hard to do that. Right.
01:16:48
Speaker
In general, I tend to think he's kind of funny. And look, Australian accents are hysterical. I love a lot of Australian content. Let me tell you, most of the podcasts that I listen to, that's why I was like, I might know them.
01:17:05
Speaker
are like Australian podcasts and it's like, it's just what I got. It's that and then like Nicole buyer stuff because I just love her. Um, but no, I definitely get trapped in the podcast world of Australians and it's really fun. And then recently I was in another bright spot. They didn't think of it until just now. Do you know who Randy felt faces? No.
01:17:29
Speaker
Oh, he's just like he's an Australian comic but he does it all with this purple puppet.
01:17:37
Speaker
Oh, I love that. So it's just like you're just getting stand up from a purple puppet and you don't see the man at all. Like it's as if Kermit the Frog just did stand up. And but he's Australian and it was I watched one of his specials and it was very fun. Anyway, I'm done with my Australian haha tangent. We can keep going. The other the other thing about Jim Jeffries is like he's done several interviews for a show before.
01:18:06
Speaker
and they're heavily edited, but the problem that I tend to have with them is like, there is a level of heavily editing
01:18:16
Speaker
interviews that you you're just doing a disservice to what you're trying to get across. Yes, it's funny. But like, people just get to point to the fact that you heavily edited them to be like, you're, you're the asshole in this situation. So I've gone back and forth with his I just don't really care so much, especially when you're doing something like that, your platforms that large, you know,
01:18:42
Speaker
It's weird. I'm not against Jim Jeffries at all. It's a strange world I sit in where I'm always sort of on the fence on whether or not I actually care.
01:19:00
Speaker
Meyer is introduced and shamed almost immediately for his dislike of minority characters and his annoyance at some female character's smaller breast size. That's the thing. It just keeps coming. He talks about how like super girls breasts seem to keep getting smaller and smaller as like the years go on. And I think some of that is probably just because like
01:19:23
Speaker
Um, in the early years, a lot of, of, uh, of female characters were drawn with large breasts. And then as we've gotten into the modern era and we've thought about like, well, how old is this character and.
01:19:39
Speaker
Um, what sort of body size can we like, uh, have like, you know, it's just changed. Yeah. You like actually think about the character and not just like, you know, as a character instead of just being like, Oh, it's a lady. We gotta have big beach balls in front of her chest. Like.
01:19:59
Speaker
And so Meyer's responses are quickly edited, bringing laughs from the audience in attendance. That's just part of Jim Jeffries' show. And while Jim Jeffries makes a joke of Meyer's stances, it just keeps going like that, where they're just mocking him over and over.
01:20:16
Speaker
And later, multiple cosplayers and comic fans were interviewed about Meyer, where they give quick rebuttals to the arguments that comics are too political and largely speak against Meyer as a whole. And there are several issues here. For one, they allow Meyer to come onto the show to be humanized through deceitful editing, giving him the opportunity to say that he was mistreated,
01:20:37
Speaker
And they give him the ability to make a statement that calling a woman a cum dumpster was a mistake, even though he continues this type of behavior. So he's, he goes on the show and he's like, yeah, I should not have done that. It's like, okay, well, what have you done to change your actions? Also a mistake, like you had to think. Again, I think I said it in the first episode, and I say it every time the cum dumpster comes on, you have to have
01:21:04
Speaker
thought of that and chosen to say that because that again that's not just like accidentally like slipping bitch out there like
01:21:17
Speaker
You genuinely were like, I'm gonna say something specific. And I think it's witty. Like, let me put it out there in the universe. And he did that. Like, that's not... That wasn't like, oopsies. I stepped on a rake this morning. Especially in context to the greater video where it was just a series of bullshit like that. There's the same video where he was telling people that
01:21:46
Speaker
certain people sucked their way into the industry and it's like oh come on man like that's
01:21:53
Speaker
Like the fact that you use the word cum dumpster is not necessarily the problem. It's like what you were, that's the everything behind what you're saying. It's what you're saying as a whole, yeah. Like I know that like, again, wow, man, we really talk about cum dumpster so much in this series. It's really fascinating. And it's like, yeah, at face value, you look at that and you're like, oh, cum dumpster, ha ha, that's so funny. And you picture,
01:22:19
Speaker
what you picture literally a dumpster full of full of semen and then but you know that he's using that to describe a human being like a human woman so then you put those two together and that's like so objectifying it's just like uh and look between two consenting adults there is a form of like you can objectify someone and even use that term
01:22:47
Speaker
with each other if you want to. Oh yeah like we can giggle about it because like we know the context of each other but this man has a platform that like other people will abuse. Everything behind how he says it is the problem. It's not just the fucking word. It's not just the word. It's the image you're putting out there and why you're putting it out there and who you are.
01:23:14
Speaker
So his role in the online harassment is downplayed because the actual nature and human element of it is almost entirely removed from the coverage. Right. Never once does the show mention Comixgate or Ethan Van Skyver or the ongoing responsibility that these people sideline.
01:23:30
Speaker
Jeffries also interviewed the comic fans in cosplay and treated their love of comics largely as a joke while Meyer is presented in regular attire. Meyer has the ability to seem more presentable in this situation by the fact that both sides are mocked. So like you bring on cosplayers to talk about how shitty Meyer is, but like during that time they're all dressed up as different like superheroes and stuff like that.
01:23:54
Speaker
They kind of joke about the fact that these people are that dedicated to comic books. And then you have Richard C. Meyer on, and while you're mocking him, you bring him on in just regular clothing. You're treating him very differently. It's weird. I don't know what decisions they were making when they made this.
01:24:18
Speaker
It's not awful. It's just you you're you're just missing what could have been good, you know? Yeah, it seems like they're. It seems like this segment is almost trying. It's like a poorly done Billy on the street. Because like a little bit, it's it's kind of like the Stephen when Stephen Colbert had the Colbert rapport interview. It's a little like that.
01:24:45
Speaker
In terms of like presentation No that I can picture I'm thinking just I guess specifically of the like, oh, what do you think of like, you know? Richardson like Riley or whatever and then Richard C Riley I can't get his name, right? I feel so bad It's because I keep thinking of John C Riley and then I'm like, I don't I know it's not him I can't stay can't keep picturing him
01:25:08
Speaker
fucking cum dumpster man. Okay. That's what we're going with. He said it. He's stuck with the title now. Um, but yeah, it just, it makes me think of that because of Billy on the street. I was literally just listening to like,
01:25:25
Speaker
a segment of that where they have John Oliver going around with them. And they'll ask gay people if they care about John Oliver. And that's what this reminds me of, because instead of talking to normal people on the street with John Oliver dressed as a normal person,
01:25:46
Speaker
You have this weird, like, we're going to talk to cosplayers who are probably now that they have this unknown camera shoved in their face. They're probably feeling a little vulnerable, like, and a little, you know, like, Oh,
01:26:00
Speaker
Well, it's like he gathered them all up into like a room, you know, and it's like they're all being interviewed together. So it's like they are mildly prepared, like more prepared than like a Billy on the Street kind of thing. But it's just, again, it's weird because I don't understand the need to, like there is a mocking element to having them in cosplay and kind of like- There is. You know, it's like you're not treating,
01:26:29
Speaker
Cosplay is great. Oh, it's very cool and creative. I'm a big fan of it. I don't do it myself, but maybe one day if I ever went to it, I haven't been to a Comic Con ever because when I started getting into comics, it was the pandemic. But I would like to go one year and maybe one year I would do, I don't know, I'd probably dress up as a goose. I would just get my overalls and
01:26:54
Speaker
put a little nose on me or something. Like, you know, but I wouldn't, I don't think I, I really admire the fact that people are able to be like so artistic and like creative and full on with their costumes. Like that's awesome. Um, but you know,
01:27:11
Speaker
But when you're interviewing people, it's weird to bring in all of these people in cosplay and then that becomes a joke in itself. Because you're like, this was in 2018? Yes. I feel like cosplay didn't start getting some sort of clout or respect until recently.
01:27:36
Speaker
You know, when like a lot of like the aesthetic kind of communities, like, you know, your cottage core and your stuff like that. Cause that's almost every day cosplay. And then, you know, you have these people who are like using TikTok and stuff more, and then they, you know, are getting more like appreciation for their work. Feel like if you asked people like in 2018 or 2017, like, Oh, you cosplay, like there's a, there was a weird connotation on those people for a while, unfortunately.
01:28:04
Speaker
So you put them on TV in these costumes on a comedy channel, it's 100% gonna look like they're being made fun of. Yeah, I don't know. For me, I've always had an affinity for cosplayers.
01:28:23
Speaker
I kind of grew up with that as someone who's into
Cosplay and Consent: Misconceptions and Movements
01:28:26
Speaker
this thing. So I don't know like the mainstream view of cosplays. I thought they were cool and fine like myself, like weather cosplays. So it's like, I know somebody who does it. Like it's personal to me. Like, so to me, you know, I don't see it that way, but I would have understood like people from like our high school or like people that I would talk to like in college, like, you know, would have this like,
01:28:51
Speaker
Oh, like you're a cosplayer, like, oh my God, like, it's so, like, this person does this, it's so weird. And it's like, that's stupid that you think that, but okay. There's another, like, layer to that too. I remember a few years ago, there was a movement called Cosplay Does Not Equal Consent. Exactly, yeah, that too, where it's like, you know, these women dress up and then they're like, oh my God, can I take a picture with you? And like, push button stuff? And it's like, no, stop.
01:29:18
Speaker
Or just, you know, they just do it. And that's fucked up. And that's weird. There's a lot in the world that's just not right around things. Yeah. Again, people need to go home and take a nap and fix themselves. Right. Whatever. Complicating things a little bit further, Comedy Central had reached out to Heather Antos, one of the first victims of Comic Skate, one of the milkshake crew, right? Yeah.
01:29:49
Speaker
They asked to have her on the show as well. She refused. And according to her, the producers stopped answering her emails directly after. So she was like, no, I don't want to be on the show. I don't want to be part of this. And while she was trying to get more info on them, or even just to give information to them, they just never responded, which is a little weird because it's like, oh, we're not getting something out of you. You mean nothing now.
01:30:17
Speaker
Or like, I guess, like, I don't know, a positive way to look at it. It was because I don't know what the emails were, but it was probably like, Oh, would you like to be on our show? And then, you know, if like this is the segment we're doing, and if they're just kind of like, No, I'm not interested. You know, if you need any help, that's fine. I just don't want to be on the show. They might. It maybe it was just like,
01:30:39
Speaker
Okay, they don't want to be on the show. Like, I guess we'll just move on. But I have no idea. It is a little weird that they're not just like, you know, an email back like, okay, no worries. Like, thank you for answering. But maybe that's just how I respond to emails. Yeah, I don't know either. I'm just basing off of like what Heather Antos has said online. Oh, then yeah, it probably is weird if she has like, you know, come out with information. She later
01:31:08
Speaker
She went on and she was letting it be known, like, look, this is just Meyer seeking another spotlight. He's just looking for more attention. And the fact that Comedy Central is providing it is kind of fucked up. And that the show put no thought into how this could possibly affect the targets of his campaign. You know, people like Heather Antos.
01:31:31
Speaker
it's just being funneled to her again, you know? And when Jim Jeffries released the segment for a show, it was at the expense of the wishes of the victims and it just gave ammo solely for Comixgate.
01:31:45
Speaker
Like to the point bounding into comics ran an article criticizing the segment while using anti-comicscape voices to bolster their arguments. So even the propaganda wing basically of comicscape ran an article saying, hey, all of these people who are against comicscape also hate this thing.
01:32:05
Speaker
Shortly after Meyer responded to the video claiming that this was done entirely to boost his brand before stating, quote, regarding the Jim Jeffries video, I'd describe it as an egregiously edited hit piece that has hilariously backfired. My enemies are gnashing their teeth over it and even his own fans realize it is a viciously inept hatchet job.
01:32:26
Speaker
Regarding his pearl clutching over the fourth grade swear words I once used in a single video nine months ago, I'm arching an eyebrow higher than his at the 10 years of misogynistic rape jokes that he built his stand up career on. I could tell he had an abiding interest in diversity since one person out of his 10 person crew wasn't white. Which, look, the fact that he has like one person on his crew that's not white, possibly good thing to point out.
01:32:56
Speaker
You're yelling at someone for diversity, look at your own group. I understand that. I have no idea if that's true or not, but if that is the case, that is a valid thing. It's also valid that Jim Jeffries spent a good amount of his career making misogynistic jokes.
01:33:18
Speaker
there is a way to look at that as very negative and not like well yeah especially if they're like if he if it is true that because i i haven't really i've only seen his face i don't think i've really listened to his content um but like i know i wouldn't be too keen on hearing like rape jokes like i don't think i'm pretty like you know flexible on like my comedy i think i listen to like a lot of different you know genres and i listen to a lot of different people
01:33:49
Speaker
I don't think I would have a particular good time hearing a rape joke from any of the comedians that I listened to. So yeah, I think that is a valid criticism from this person. Right. So I mean, you get, this is a way that they were trying to cover Meyer, trying to mock him.
Comixgate's Media Influence and Ideologies
01:34:14
Speaker
And it's like, it works.
01:34:16
Speaker
in two different ways because Meyer is both boosted by this because it kind of is shitty of Comedy Central and Jim Jeffries to do it the way that they did. Yeah. But it also sort of diminishes his role because he is so widely mocked on a national scale through Comedy Central.
01:34:40
Speaker
Right. Like, I would, regardless of the outcome, like, he is not as big in Comics Gate as he once was, and this is part of that. Yeah. I would argue that it was still done poorly, you know? Yeah. Like, the outcome was probably preferable, but you still fumbled so fucking badly on it. It was a very, like, stumbly finish. Like, the landing did not stick. Right.
01:35:10
Speaker
Yeah, just kind of, it's almost like an awkward goodbye. Like you go to say bye to people and then you end up walking the same direction to your car. And yeah, it's just kind of, it's crunchy. It's crunchy.
01:35:25
Speaker
And the takedown of Richard C. Meyer, that really did little other than to just give Ethan Van Schuyberg more of the reigns of comics. He's now the clear commander of it. Some saw Meyer's agreement to join Comedy Central for a segment embarrassing from the start. Others rightly realized that some things are better off left out of the mainstream.
01:35:50
Speaker
The takeaway that I personally got from the whole ordeal was that the coverage of the group so quick to play the victim needs to be thorough and at no point should they be allowed to take the attention away from the victims of their campaign. We've done a lot of talk about them on this show. One of the things that I think needs to be
01:36:08
Speaker
really drilled home is if you're talking about it you need to talk about like the actual human elements the people that are uh being brought down i think we've done a good job of at least mentioning that the second thing is you really need to make uh make it be known why this is a problem do not let it like there's no room for error here you know you have to cover them in their entirety and there's stuff that we haven't gone over with comics gate because
01:36:36
Speaker
It's just repetition. The movement needs to be made clear. The actions need to be made clear and the light needs to be shown directly on what they have done.
01:36:52
Speaker
And I think that I'm hoping anyway, after six episodes, four of them specifically about Comixgate and two of them, everything that led to Comixgate, including like why their name is Comixgate. It comes out of Gamergate.
01:37:08
Speaker
I think that we've done a good job of pointing out the fucking problems with their movement. We did almost an entire episode on what they believe and why it's bullshit. Yeah, I mean like, hey.
01:37:27
Speaker
From the fact that like now in episode six, I can understand like details and like patterns in the movement. I would say that the thorough research has paid off because you have had a once clueless person now understands and remembers names and all of that. So I, I think it's been stamp of approval. We've learned the thing and we understand it.
01:37:54
Speaker
Well, I very much appreciate it. And so the reasons for a rise in movements like Gamergate, QAnon, The Proud Boys, Comixgate, and others like them, those aren't easy to dissect. You know, that's why I spent so long putting together all of the information that I could. And that's why I wanted to have all of this written before we even started. Yeah. It's almost like trying to figure out why things happen, just like
01:38:19
Speaker
It's almost just trying to study like sociology, basically, because like people will be like, Oh, like this war was won. So like all these things happen. It's like, okay, well, no, like there's like all these other tiny things that happens. Like, you know, so it's never just one thing and it's never like, you know, as we've kind of seen, like.
01:38:38
Speaker
It's never one person just being like a clear bad guy or like, you know, it seems like a lot of these people are trying to make things very black and white. And I think that's kind of the problem with the argument because like that is never how anything is in life. Everything is a big gray area. Like, you know, absolutely. Like Mr. Cumdumster man, like, you know,
01:39:01
Speaker
he got made fun of on national TV and has maybe done like one or two things like good in his life, but overall like this is what he was advocating for. So like, you know, that's not great. He's maybe on a certain shade of gray that I don't like. So yeah, it's been very interesting learning about these people and like their opinions. And for some of them,
01:39:28
Speaker
I'm a little worried and I feel bad for them. But on the grand scheme of things, I think the best thing we can take out of it is just if you have, just keep liking what you like, you know, and your stuff will be supported.
Promoting Inclusivity in Comics
01:39:42
Speaker
Like I really like inclusivity in my comics of just all different kinds of people. And I'm still gonna read what I like, which means I'm going to have to purchase the things that I like. So that's gonna show.
01:39:58
Speaker
And it seems like it is showing with everybody else. So like, I'm not too worried about it. Yeah. And it's not on my algorithm. So that's nice. It still isn't there, everybody. It's still just cats.
01:40:13
Speaker
A frequent undercurrent scene, and often commented by those that study fascism, is the need to call back to a better time. That's when you get the, everything's bad now, we need to go back to the make America great again. That's the thing. This is perhaps best known from Umberto Eco's essay, Ur-Fascism, but it's relevant here, not for the fascistic leanings of these groups. I would argue that that's there. But it's relevant because it is a wonderful recruiting tactic.
01:40:42
Speaker
Learning history is often depressing and dealing with changes in how we feel about ourselves and the world can lead to drastic actions. It's hard to discuss depressing topics all the time. It takes a toll on the mind that is hard to pay. It's often seen as better to imagine the world was once more pure because when you were younger or more naive, it actually felt that way.
01:41:02
Speaker
Anger and fear are addictive emotions, but they become increasingly so when tied with the notion that there was once some happiness that we can return to. That's one of the things that, when starting the episodes, I liked the idea of doing a bright spot because I liked, like, let's talk about something good, you know? Yeah, and it's also, let's talk about something that's good and current. Yes. Because that just equally proves that it's like, you know, things can be shitty now, but things are also good now.
01:41:30
Speaker
Like, you know, we do still get great sandwiches and pretty inclusive people and watery lemonade from a kid down my block. So a fundamental problem that I see recurring within groups that reject hateful rhetoric and ideologies is that they tend to become just as obsessed with combating hate as the perpetrators are with sustaining it. Embracing happiness, however it comes, should be just as important.
01:41:59
Speaker
For those whose lives have been dragged down by the hateful few, I hope they find a way to seek out the good that can keep them going. Negativity can be just as toxic if held within as it is coming from the outside. And this is one reason that, like,
01:42:15
Speaker
I'm like, I'm really trying to drill home that we've, you know, we started with the bright spot. We, um, we kind of make jokes throughout. We're having a good time in learning about these things. And yes, it's very depressing, but like there's some fun to be had with it, right? Yeah. And I mean, like, and again, I think it's also one of those things where it's like, we already have so many people on the internet, like, and probably a lot of people.
01:42:44
Speaker
included both on anti-end pro comics gate. And I said it in the last episode where everybody's just screaming at each other on the internet. But it's like with this, like, you know, yeah, we're talking about it. And there are definitely points where like the Corinna's upset counter came on. But like, in the end, it's like, we're just having a discussion about it. Like,
01:43:07
Speaker
you know there is no screaming at like you know these people i am not gonna log off on this zen caster recording i'd be like fuck you who like
01:43:23
Speaker
Ethan van sausage like I'm never gonna say his name right again Also, I'm so sorry. I can't I can't pronounce anything after van I'm just gonna keep changing it but it's like I'm not gonna I don't have the negative energy in my life to just like You know go find him and fuck up my algorithm and be like I hate you like
01:43:47
Speaker
I don't know. I think just like the best thing that you can do is if you find a real person in real life who is saying stuff like this, you know, maybe you just talk to him a little bit before you jump on. I hate you. Like I have a coworker who's like, he's like 40.
01:44:06
Speaker
I think he may be like 39. I don't know. But like, he has some very different thoughts. And I mean, they're not about comics because nobody I know except for like you and like three other people read comics in my friend group.
01:44:23
Speaker
But again, I studied nutrition. And he was a doctor who's gone full holistic. And maybe I shouldn't say that. I don't know if he'll listen. I don't think I've told him about the podcast. Maybe he won't. I don't know. But we have some very different opinions. And you know what? And he's still fine to work with. I just kindly will be like, I don't agree with this. And here are my thoughts.
01:44:50
Speaker
It's totally fine. And maybe I've changed his opinion about some things and maybe I've listened in and thought a little bit about some other things that maybe I didn't know. That's what life is. It's talking to people and just kindly trying to understand each other. I don't know. Maybe that's why I don't like Twitter.
01:45:13
Speaker
Twitter is a bit of a hellhole. I totally understand. It is. I think if people talked a little nicer on it, like if you just remember that they're real people, like, you know, you would actually think before you doxxed them. Think before you doxxed, kids. That's important.
01:45:33
Speaker
I've had several instances where I've gone too far down the rabbit hole of being obsessive. Like I've said, I spend a lot of my time listening to conspiracy theorists and there's a lot of hateful rhetoric that comes from it. I've spent a lot of time listening to Ethan Van Skyver and a lot of the hateful rhetoric that comes out of that. And there is a point where it just becomes a little too much and I've had to take steps away.
01:45:56
Speaker
to like, you know, oh, I've realized I've been clenching my jaw for an entire week. Maybe I need to maybe I need to de-stress for a bit. There, you know, there's personal health that should go into it too, you know? Yeah, I think that's the whole thing. Like, you know, it really kind of came up in 2020.
01:46:17
Speaker
Like, you know, of what is like burnout and, you know, how can we prevent ourselves from doing that? Like I'm, I try to be the best ally I can be. I definitely like, you know, mispronounce things or, you know, we'll mess up every once in a while, but it's like, or like, um, Oh, like when I was reading bottom feeder, like I had like two nights where I was like, Oh no, like,
01:46:44
Speaker
It's scary. And like, I was thinking about it and I was like, Oh, the town I live in right now, like the main street near me. A lot of, before I moved here, like, I don't know, maybe like a year ago, like a little over a year ago. And everybody used to be like, Oh, like this main street used to be so like, you know,
01:47:09
Speaker
bad and like gross and all this stuff but now it's like getting nice and I'm looking around at it and it's like I see like you know the breweries that have been here for like a couple years like not too long like less than 10 years for sure and like a boutique pops up every once in a while and then I do see like a lot of like you know
01:47:29
Speaker
smaller Latinx businesses. And I'm like, shit, am I living in an area that's currently getting gentrified? And I was like, oh my God, what do I do? I just messed up the system. But then I was like, no.
Personal Reflections and Supporting Local Diversity
01:47:44
Speaker
Stop. Stop freaking yourself out. Just go support the people that you know that are good. Don't worry.
01:47:55
Speaker
just be aware and live your life. A subtle bit of at least internalized racism if it's like the idea that it's like, oh, it's getting better now. Are you saying that because you see more white people around? Yeah, that's like what makes me wonder. I'm like, why are you saying like, do you just mean like the businesses look more like, you know, of a certain way? Like, what are you
01:48:17
Speaker
What are you implying here? These people were doing fine, I think. Nobody seems like they're about to kill me when I walk on the street. I feel like if I did that five years ago, 10 years ago, it would still probably be fine if I was walking around their street.
01:48:41
Speaker
In bottom feeders, I think part of the issue with the gentrification wasn't just like, oh, it's not like just white people are moving in, but it's like someone bought out the building and to intentionally get
01:48:56
Speaker
white people in and like market prices and get people out and it's like that's yeah that's a big part like you're in on an individual scale you can't quite help it as much as like oh i did realize that after like a day or two of like thinking about it um and like you know again it's one of those things where it's like you can feel like you know if you got to feel like a couple seconds of like
01:49:22
Speaker
Oh shit, am I doing okay as an ally? Or like, oh shit.
01:49:27
Speaker
Am I a part of the problem? Am I a part of the problem? Yeah. But it's like, if you are worrying about that and you are aware now of the problem, but you're still doing what you can to be a good person, then like, no, you're not a part of the problem. Like you can still consciously like go support like your main street cafe that's been there for before the neighborhood was considered bullied, quote unquote. So I was like, oh, I got nothing to worry about. Like we're okay, man. Yeah.
01:49:56
Speaker
So I want to end our coverage of Comic Skate with a few suggestions on how to push the needle a little bit more to the positive side of the scale. Heck yeah. If you find yourself in a situation where you are being harassed, the block or mute button is obviously going to be your fault.
01:50:12
Speaker
You know, there are block bots out there that you can, you block chains and things like that. I mean, we've talked about those in the past and as long as you're not working for fucking Alterna, you can use those. Those are great. You should report harassers to the social media platform that they're using, call the local police and keep records of everything. Sometimes this isn't enough. But I have a few suggestions for how we can perhaps make a difference. Yeah.
01:50:38
Speaker
One of the resources available to combating all of the behavior we have detailed before is the Games and Online Harassment Hotline. Coming directly out of pioneering work established by Zoe Quinn and Crash Override, this new hotline brings decades of experiences and crisis help together with mental health and social services to take on sexism within the online and gaming communities.
01:51:02
Speaker
It is a free text message based confidential emotional support hotline that can offer in the moment help or find the referrals and resources victims may need. Fewer things can irritate serial harassers and seeing someone get the help that they actually need. So this is a perfect way to help yourself and enjoy seeing the trolls online drive themselves crazy because they've been kicked out of your fucking life. And also it shows that you're not alone because there's a literal hotline that was created. Like you're going to be okay.
01:51:31
Speaker
I'm gonna throw this out there. We are not sponsored whatsoever. I just really appreciate the work that these people are doing. And in fact, the only thing that could irritate these trolls more is if this were somehow an organization run by a previous victim of online abuse. I mean, that would be pretty inspiring to others, right? Yeah. Guess fucking what.
01:51:56
Speaker
Is it? The Games and Online Harassment Hotline was founded in part by none other than the feminist media critic, gamergate survivor, and all-around badass Anita Sarkeesian. Woo-woo! So you can find more information on how to help or volunteer by going to gameshotline.org or texting support to 23368.
01:52:21
Speaker
If you are looking to donate, there is an option on their page for that specific thing, but I thought it would be a little fun to see if we could do more with this.
01:52:31
Speaker
And over the last few months of researching and writing for this series of episodes, I have had to spend an insane amount of time trudging through some of the worst that Comixgate has had
Legal and Supportive Measures Against Online Harassment
01:52:40
Speaker
to offer. So, in the interest of expressing my deepest gratitude, I bought the domain name fuckcomixgate.com. And if you enter this into your browser, it will take you directly to the donation page for the games and online harassment hotline.
01:53:04
Speaker
There's an option to leave a message with every donation and I sincerely hope that everyone listening will write even just a sentence about the wonderful work that these people are doing. They are actually trying to make a difference in the world and they should be applauded for that. And I will also point out this is coming out basically on my birthday so it's a wonderful birthday gift to me if everyone just like sends even a dollar five dollars whatever to this page.
01:53:29
Speaker
Can you say the page one more time? So if you go to fuckcomicsgate.com, it takes you right there. Oh, I'm so excited. I'm going to do it now. Dot com. Oh my god, I'm so excited. Ah, this is so great. This was the best surprise ending ever.
01:53:59
Speaker
So finding support after dealing with harassment is one thing. And if there's anything we've learned from Anita Sarkeesian, it's that current laws don't really have the framework for how to deal with this type of abuse. There will need to be changes on how we handle everything from online stalking to direct targeted abuse. So many of the people we have discussed have had to go through.
01:54:17
Speaker
It's important to make sure our elected officials take this type of thing seriously and that they know that it's a topic that their constituents feel strongly about. The main problem here is that most people don't even know who their elected officials are or don't want to take the time to compose a letter. And that's why I put together a campaign where all you have to do is text PSJDDL to 50409 and you'll be immediately set up with a letter that you can send directly to your representative, even if you don't know their name.
01:54:47
Speaker
So again, that's PSJDDL to 50409. And you can finally do something about what has been a problem for years. Yeah. And if by chance Vox Day, Ethan Van Schuyver, Richard C. Meyer, Avi Green, John Delarose, or any of the other knuckleheads we spoke about during our coverage or listening, go fuck yourselves. This concludes our look at comics case. But I'm not opposed to coming back to see what more we can learn from these people we've discussed or the organization that support them.
01:55:16
Speaker
For now, though, I'm excited to take a break from some of the heavy research, and I might even come back for an episode or two about silly comic book characters. I think you and I were talking about a Batman one. Yeah, we're talking about Batman. It's gonna be great.
01:55:30
Speaker
There's plenty I want to write about and more I want to learn. I want to thank Corinne for being with me all of these episodes and providing some of the much needed levity during some of the heavier topics. Thanks for having me. Thanks for making me learn about all this stuff that I never thought of before.
01:55:50
Speaker
I apologize for dragging it. I've honestly been having a real great time. I love that in the end, there's a domain now that you now own. Everyone out there, if you are listening at all, if you can spare even a single dollar, fuckcomicsgate.com, send anything that you can over to the Games and Online Harassment.
01:56:19
Speaker
hotline. It would be really wonderful. It would be great. They're doing wonderful work. I really do think that they deserve it. Yeah. This has been great though. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you for coming on. I'm so glad that this was like my first and probably only podcast that I'll ever be on. It's been a good one. I appreciate it.
01:56:43
Speaker
I really appreciate you being here. So you can find more information, including all of the sources for today's episode at comicallypedantic.com. You can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram by searching at pedanticastin at Derek L. Chase on both platforms. New episodes will come out at some point in the future on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and at comicallypedantic.com. Though it might not be for a while, we're going to probably do a couple more episodes and then I'll be building up another big drop like this.
01:57:11
Speaker
You can support some of the truly amazing people doing good work by going to fuckcomicsgate.com. And if you have any comments or questions, you can send them in text or audio recording to comicallypadanticajima.com. Please indicate if you'd like your name or question right on the air. We will be back after a hiatus to research more episodes, but until then, you can find more exciting adventures at your local comic shop.
01:57:45
Speaker
you