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#203 - Travis Baldree
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NYT best-selling cosy fantasy author and audiobook narrator, Travis Baldree is here! We chat about his writing journey from breakout indie publishing success and moving into traditional publishing as well as working as an audiobook narrator, Travis' writing process, the third book and his experiences working in video games.
Travis' website - https://www.travisbaldree.com/
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Transcript
Quality Writing and Reader Expectations
00:00:00
Speaker
Ooh, a spicy question. I love it. Because the writing is sort of everything, right? You can fix plot holes, but if the writing isn't there... So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of a gamble.
Meet Travis Baldry
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome back. to the right and wrong podcast. I am very excited to introduce today's guest. He is a New York Times bestselling fantasy author, an audiobook narrator and a veteran of the video games industry. His debut novel Legends in Lattes was a massive critically acclaimed hit and the follow up prequel released just last year to an equally excited reception. It's Travis Baldry. Hello, welcome.
00:00:41
Speaker
Hello, and thank you so much for having me. Thanks so much for coming on. There's so much that I want to chat about, ah so I think we just need to get straight into it. I always like to start these interviews with giving everyone a kind of sense of your writing and the stories that you tell.
Exploring Cozy Fantasy
00:00:58
Speaker
So could you tell us a little bit about um the two novels and the fantasy world you have created around the city of Thun?
00:01:07
Speaker
ah Well, legends and lattes and bookshops and bone dust are base basically what people are calling cozy fantasy these days. I wasn't really sure that was a genre when I was writing initially. um But ultimately, legends and lattes is about someone who did the same job into her 40s, decided she didn't like it, and then moved to another city to introduce coffee to a culture that had no idea what it was. um But more than anything else, they are fantasy books about people with kind of everyday concerns and problems that use fantasy to remind us that those things are important.
00:01:47
Speaker
Yes, that's such a good description of it because you described it without at all mentioning that it is set in like a fantastical world with magic and like elves and orcs and all of that lot.
Themes in Cozy Fantasy
00:01:59
Speaker
Well, and and I think that that's that's hope i think that's some of the appeal of it is that um is that it's it' something that you can immediately relate to and understand. um It's sometimes hard to connect with slaying a dragon and defeating an evil overlord because it isn't necessarily relevant to what we personally deal with. um But it's pretty easy to relate to making friends in your 40s and trying to start a new small business or moving to a new city.
00:02:26
Speaker
No, exactly. It's fantasy at a certain point, and I'm a big fantasy reader. ah It's sort of, it was kind of refreshing reading this and because I read a lot of like, Brandon Sanderson, Joe Abercrombie, that kind of stuff where... Oh, me too. Yeah. So you know what I mean when it's like, you kind of need to understand the genre to be able to process a lot of the information that you're given with no context.
00:02:53
Speaker
yeah and i mean There's an element of like fantasy tourism, right? i'm I'm going to other cultures i haven't I haven't been to before and seeing sites I haven't
Comparing to Discworld
00:03:01
Speaker
seen, and which is which is great. It's fabulous. It's one of the reasons I think that Dune is so amazing, yeah um but it's not the only thing you can do with fantasy. anri I think Terry Pratchett was doing this for a very long time. He used Discworld to talk about anything he wanted to talk about, and there weren't a lot of wars and there weren't a lot of dragons and there weren't a lot of evil overlords. it was about you know, ah a ah guy who's, ah ah it was about like the concepts of death or ah basically ah a huckster who got saddled with starting a postal system. They were they were just non-traditional fantasy um storylines and they were just concerned with different things.
00:03:40
Speaker
Yeah. I've always adored Terry Pratchett. It's that kind of mundanity in a world where everything is so over the top. It's like, but there's also just people doing their taxes. You know, I'm just boring things. I love that so much. Like you say, yeah, I think obviously it
Impact on the Genre
00:03:56
Speaker
existed. Terry Pratchett had, you know, his books have been around for many decades now, but it does kind of feel like Cosy fantasy as a sort of phrase, as a sort of genre put together, your work has really kind of shed a light on it.
00:04:10
Speaker
and think it made it I think it just made it easy to put a name on it, I think, because the concept is relatively concise. Work opens a coffee shop. It's easy to it's easy to to get the idea across to someone else. The cover yeah looks like a cozy fantasy. The the tagline is is pretty conducive of understanding what the genre is. um I think it just happens to be an easy example.
00:04:38
Speaker
It was Legends and Lattes, the first novel that you ever wrote.
Travis's Writing Journey
00:04:43
Speaker
It's the first one I finished, yes. There were many failed attempts, none of them cozy fantasies that I made over the years, but Legends was the first one that I actually made it to the end of. Oh, okay. Were they all fantasy?
00:04:56
Speaker
um I had some sci-fi in there, a little bit of horror. um I really love quite a lot of genres um and none of them, but none of them had been as, one, I'm gonna say unambitious as Legends and Lattes because Legends and Lattes is not particularly an ambitious story. um Everything else I did had to have a bunch of POVs and ah some something that I thought was a killer idea at the time, which I'm sure ah I'm sure my opinion of that idea died relatively quickly as I was writing it. I think that happens a lot. um But they were all very complicated and big. you know If I was going to write something, it had to be had to be worth the time. Yeah.
Finding Personal Taste through Audiobooks
00:05:39
Speaker
A lot of people struggle with when they're writing something is they're trying to write something to compete with something else was almost. like You know what else is in the market. yeah like ah It's like um'm if I'm trying to write a fantasy and then I say, oh, I want to write something like Brandon Sanderson.
00:05:53
Speaker
and i'm like That's a field table novel, very ambitious thing to do. How am I going to do that? That's a lot. That's a lot on day one. It's too much. And I think he published 12, well, he'd written 12 novels, I think, before he published his first one, which was a lot of- Yeah, he had a bunch of trunk novels. And there was that old version of The Way of Kings that he wrote first that I think, I can't remember if he made that available for people to look at. I want to say he did.
00:06:21
Speaker
he might Sounds like the sort of thing he would do. He's very generous with his like teachings and and and sharing his knowledge of of the craft. i mean I think it's a really common writer problem is that we don't know what we need to write. And so we're looking around at everything around us to try and decide what we need to write.
00:06:37
Speaker
well, so-and-so wrote this, this is really popular, this is really interesting, I like this, but that's not necessarily what we need to write. um And I think there's a lot of and there's a lot of work on the way to figuring out what we personally need to say or put into a book um that isn't immediately obvious. Yeah, I think that's very eloquently put because it's about finding the story that's unique to you, not the one that's like something else that already exists, right?
00:07:06
Speaker
It is. um One of the nice things about being an audiobook narrator is that when you're reading other people's books out loud, um it really kind of clarifies for you what you're interested in in a way that I think reading to yourself does not.
00:07:22
Speaker
um Also, in the fact that you're reading things that you wouldn't necessarily normally choose. um You've got good books, bad books, mediocre books, books that aren't your preferred genre. um And it really does crystallize what you actually want to put into a book. That's unexpectedly valuable.
00:07:42
Speaker
I see sort of forcing yourself outside of your comfort zone in in some ways. Well, and you experience writing in a different way. um If there's three pages of describing the furniture, um and I read that to myself in my head, I kind of zone out a little bit. Maybe I skim a touch till I get to the parts that I like. I don't pay much attention to the fact that that wasn't for me.
00:08:04
Speaker
But I kind of see it as something that somebody had to put into a book. Well, this belonged in a book, but i I wasn't that interested in it. But when you have to read it out loud and try and make it sound good, you don't skim. And what's happening under the surface, um the machinery of a scene, the machinery of the writing becomes laid really, really bare. And you form a much more – you form a much stronger opinion.
00:08:28
Speaker
about that approach to something. And then when something really sings and really works great, you you can't help but notice why it's working for you. And none of that's really objective. It's all just your subjective taste about what's happening in this story, how this process is functioning. But that's really powerful to know what your subjective taste actually is in a really precise way.
00:08:49
Speaker
Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah, I guess because it's you are engaging with it, like you said, in a totally different way. And I know that there's quite a lot of authors who, at whatever point it is in their drafting process, they do read their story aloud or they put it through like a whatever program. Yeah, they want to hear it audibly. Yeah, yeah exactly. Because it's different.
00:09:12
Speaker
which is really potent. um And one of the shortcuts you get as an audiobook narrator is, um because I've read thousands and thousands and thousands of hours of stuff aloud, I know exactly how it will sound spoken aloud before it's been spoken.
00:09:28
Speaker
um your brain starts to get rewired, I don't know, hour 1000, to know exactly what your voice will sound like to say a phrase. um So while I'm writing, I actually know what it would sound like to say it before I write the words. And it didn't used to be that way for me. And I can actually tell there's a difference between writing that I did before I was a narrator and writing that I did after.
00:09:53
Speaker
um in the way that I structure language. It's kind of an interesting side effect. Yeah. So it sounds like you've actually been writing for for quite a long time. You've been working away at stuff.
00:10:06
Speaker
Oh yeah, I wanted to write a novel since I was a kid. um i i wrote a really I wrote part of a really terrible Wheel of Time style pastiche when I was in high school. okay i started with the I started with the glossary.
00:10:23
Speaker
Wow ambitious um and I definitely don't do that now But a friend of mine had a printout of it and gave it to me a couple of years ago And it's easily the worst thing anyone has ever handed to me But I I tried to I don't know how many failed novels were in my wake I tried many times I always wanted to do it and Eventually kind of came to the conclusion that I wasn't going to be able to that it was just not in the cards for me um So this is all a bit of a surprise and This one, you published it yourself
Self-Publishing and Indie Insights
00:10:54
Speaker
at first. Was that always the plan or had you kind of shopped it out and queried agents and editors?
00:11:00
Speaker
I never thought about shopping it at all. um I never thought about putting it on submission. So I work with a lot of authors at this point as a narrator and the vast majority of them are actually indies. um Unexpectedly, ah the indie authors that I work with are generally in a sustaining your life sort of way as ah as an occupation, more successful than most of the traditionally published authors I know.
00:11:24
Speaker
um They put out a bunch of books, and they make a good living, and they're able to kind of control their own destiny. And so when I was writing this, and as I finished, I thought, well, I and want to know what they do.
00:11:39
Speaker
i want to I want to understand what their process is for publishing because I'm a bit of a process nerd and I like to know how things work. So initially I knew that I was just going to do it as self-published because they're all doing it. It's working for them and there's no gatekeeping. I can just choose to do this. It won't take very long and I'll understand the process for men to end.
00:12:00
Speaker
Okay. So then what did you learn as in, you know, if people listening right now and thinking, Oh, I'm thinking of self-publishing, you obviously had a very successful self-publishing launch. What was it? that How did you kind of figure that out? How did you learn? Where did you research?
00:12:16
Speaker
um I gathered research from all over the place, and I compiled it all. So if you're out there and listening to this and you want to see what I did from step from having nothing to publish to published and numbers, um I wrote it all up on my website. There's a link. It says self-publishing A to Z. It's probably about an hour long read, and it goes through everything from actually getting it written to getting it edited to editing process to generating an ebook to commissioning artwork to whether you should or should not make an audio book.
00:12:45
Speaker
to the entire publishing process um and how to get paperbacks available if you want them in actual brick and mortar stores. um So ah I know a few people have used it and it's been hopeful to them. So if you're interested in that, big write up.
00:13:02
Speaker
Okay. Amazing. That's so useful. I'm sure a lot of people, I speak to so many people who who say, I would love to try self-publishing, but it just seems like such a big ah task, like such a big undertaking. So having something compiled like that, that sounds amazing.
00:13:17
Speaker
It sounds like you were pretty happy with the decision, pretty set on the idea of indie publishing this. So what what changed? um Agents were reached out to me. i would I never would have thought of going on submission because the idea of just sending it to random people and waiting an interminable time to get a response and then maybe going into a publishing system and maybe it comes out the other end. it just didn't It didn't occur to me as something that seemed realistic, um but I had, I think, three agents reach out to me after it was published.
The BookTok Effect
00:13:49
Speaker
My impression of how this is happening more and more often is that because BookTok and BookTube and Bookstagram are such effective um
00:13:59
Speaker
marketing tools for books ah that a lot of agents and potentially publishers are looking at these already to find stuff that has proved itself as successful before they acquire it. okay Clearly, this book is going to have legs. People already want to read it. People are buying it. ah We don't really have to roll the dice.
00:14:16
Speaker
um We know that if we republish this, it will probably have an audience. um And I think that more and more books are doing that. I think the Atlas Six did that. Senlin Ascends, um Rage of Dragons. I know there have been others. I feel like it's happening more and more often.
00:14:32
Speaker
um But at that point, because I wasn't really looking to retire from my audio book narration job to be a full-time writer and because it felt like a unique experience to be able to compare indie publishing to traditional publishing on the exact same book.
00:14:50
Speaker
I said, sure, why not? That sounds cool. Because there wasn't there wasn't really any risk to it, honestly. yeah um And so I just picked the the agent that I had thought had the best vibes, Stevie Finnegan at Zeno over there in the UK. And we went out on submission. And I think within 48 hours, it came back ah with an offer from Tor. pre yeah and I've always been a huge fan of Tor, so that seemed like the best possible outcome to me. yeah both have their Both roots have their merits, right? If I was going back in time, I would still indie self-publish first. um i I wouldn't have said, oh gosh, I really should have just gone straight onto submission um because I think indie publishing lets you fail really quickly and adjust.
00:15:42
Speaker
yeah If you write a book, you put it out there. If it doesn't find an audience, you don't wait a year and a half to two years to find out. You just write something else um or you change it or you you you mess with the blurb. You mess with the cover. You have a lot of surface area to try things and learn. and Then traditional publishing has its own benefits. You can be available for rewards. You get translations. You're going to be in bookstores you probably otherwise wouldn't be in. The translations is honestly a big thing. That's kind of one of the hugest advantages.
00:16:09
Speaker
I mean surely you can do that as an indie author as well, but I assume there's a bit more red tape that you need to navigate. it's ah my From all the authors that I know, it's it's really challenging to do translations. um Usually if a lot of these authors will manage maybe Spanish, they'll maybe do ife, they'll do Spanish, German, you know maybe French, but it's you don't know that The bigger publishers have an actual a whole department that deals with translations and has relationships with publishers in other countries. There's already kind of a language barrier, right? So having a centralized service that knows about all of these opportunities and
00:16:51
Speaker
what's going on in any other given country that you want to publish in, it's really hard to get that information and act on it as an indie. And iny it's also hard to vet any book that you get back that's translated for whether it's a good translation or not. So there's all this machinery that you just don't have access to that would be so time consuming to do yourself that it becomes kind of improbable.
00:17:11
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. You mentioned just now that it's all a bit of a surprise because you you sort of you'd sort of resigned yourself to to the to the thought that you might never get published. So is it strange? is it so I imagine it's somewhat surreal now to be part of a literary agency that represents some of the biggest fantasy authors currently writing, not to mention Brandon Sanderson himself.
00:17:38
Speaker
It's incredibly surreal. The whole thing is surreal. ah Being published at all, um being able to see your book on a bookshelf and it reasonably expect that it's going to be a store if you walk in, um to be able to meet authors that you've read the work of for you know decades at Worldcon and meet them as a professional instead of just only as a fan. You get to do both. um All of that's really It's kind of a lot. I'm still um still a little glowing from it. so
00:18:09
Speaker
That's good. Hopefully, the glow never fades. Exactly.
Writing the Second Book
00:18:12
Speaker
Let's talk about this the the second novel. so Following the success of Legends and Lattes, um I'm going to guess that it was a two-book deal that tore sides, including Legends and Lattes. Then you did Bookshops and Bone Dust, which is a prequel. oh Was it an entirely different experience writing that to the first novel, now that you were doing it sort of alongside an editor and a publisher?
00:18:37
Speaker
It was, um but not so much because of the editor and publisher themselves. They were actually really fabulous to work with, and there wasn't a lot of mechanical change in how that worked for the writing of it. Lindsay Hall is my editor. and She's amazing. I really love working with her, and it's very collaborative. and a yeah They've never gotten in my way. Only I have gotten in my way. um But the the second book was hugely different in terms of process and just, I guess, emotionally to write. um The first book had no expectations. I didn't think anybody was going to read it. It was more about getting to the finish line and actually finishing the book for the first time.
00:19:19
Speaker
um And for the second book, I thought I knew what I was going to write. I thought I'd figured this out, which I think is a very classic first book a mistake. Everyone tells you the second book is the hardest. yeah um But I was going to write a cozy fantasy mystery that was going to be my second book um because I immediately wanted to kind of switch genre a little bit.
00:19:41
Speaker
And that was what I pitched ah Toron as the second book, and they were happy with that. And I had a complete outline. I knew everything about the story. I thought it was going to be great, and I wrote about 20, 30,000 words of it, and I hated it. It was awful. But I didn't know why I was so unhappy initially. I couldn't tell if the feeling I had about it was because there was something wrong with the story, and I needed to just and I needed to to change it fundamentally or if it was the fact that I was going to be writing for expectations and somebody else was expecting something from me and I didn't know if I'd be giving it to them. And it took me three restarts of the book to kind of figure out which feeling was which.
00:20:22
Speaker
um And for me, there was something fundamentally wrong with the book. um Sadly, I actually don't care about mysteries that much. I like all the people in a mystery novel. I like the feeling of a mystery novel, but I don't like the mechanics of them. I don't remember which clues were important. I don't care about whether I could have figured it out ahead of time. That's just not that interesting to me. And I think if you want to write a mystery, it probably should be interesting to you, or you should be writing a more subversive kind of mystery.
00:20:49
Speaker
So um it was a process of figuring out what was important for me to have in a novel to make it work. And I had misjudged what I thought was important for me to have. It wasn't just an outline. It's kind of an emotional journey that I understand personally that I can transplant into the novel. And I did not have that initially. And so it took me a bit of flailing around to find it.
00:21:15
Speaker
Okay. But I mean, an important, probably a very useful lesson to have learned is to have written that, to learn that that was the thing that you needed to figure out and that was the thing that was wrong. It was, it was very useful. And I, I'm also prepared for it to be like a one time lesson the next, you know, every book is different. So I'm prepared to have to learn a totally different and horrifying lesson, you know, with subsequent books. And I'm writing the third now and it's challenging for totally different reasons. But, um,
00:21:43
Speaker
i'm prepared I'm prepared to trip over myself ah into the future. I'm not going to fool myself into thinking I've got it all figured it out ever again. so yeah yeah that's the that's It's the Dunning-Kruger effect, right? You're like, oh, I published a novel. I know how to do this. This is perfect. Well, that's great. i mean it's it's a Like you mentioned earlier, make mistakes fast. is like ah it's just That's how a lot of stories and novels are written in the end. you know These things will come together in the and the edits, in the drafts.
00:22:11
Speaker
So you mentioned you're writing a third book. The initial deal was the two book, and then you I think you announced um not that long ago that you have signed ah another three book deal with Tor and Macmillan. Yeah, that's right. So I don't know how much you can say, but... I think I can say whatever I want, really.
00:22:29
Speaker
um um Nobody's ever told me no. Okay. They might soon. um the yeah I can write whatever I want with those three books. But the third book is in the same world. um And I would like to write outside of it. I have some other specific book ideas that they're aware of that I want i want to pursue. um But they're very flexible on that too. But the third book is set in the same world as Legends of Latte's. um okay actually yeah It comes after the first two books. So it's actually a proper sequel this time. but
00:23:08
Speaker
Viv, who's the protagonist of the first two books, is not the protagonist of this book. um Instead, it's Fern, who was a character that she met in Bookshops and Bone Dust.
00:23:20
Speaker
um okay and It's immediately not the same as the other books. We'll see how people respond to that, but it's a bit more of a road trip novel.
00:23:31
Speaker
um okay If the first book was about like changing your course late in life and um the ah the challenges of like finding a community and the second book was about um the mistakes that we make early in life that don that turn out not to be mistakes and contribute to things that are important to us later, the third book is about the guilt of disappointing other people and the fact that your life doesn't necessarily stay fixed every time you fix it.
00:24:00
Speaker
um And we'll see how that goes. Okay. I'm a bit over halfway done with it. Okay, great. The cover art's done. The cover's done. Okay. The cover's done. The cover's something that you are very cognizant of whilst you're writing them. You know exactly what it wants to be.
00:24:18
Speaker
um I'm pretty clear on that. um i ah I art directed the first cover. um Carson Loemler was the artist. I knew exactly what I wanted. I got what I wanted and I was very happy with it. And Tor was happy to continue having Carson do the covers. So he did the second cover as well. um And um the third is also pretty close to what I envisioned when we talked about it. So I'm pretty pleased with how they come out.
00:24:45
Speaker
Okay, great. So that's three, and then you'll have two more after that. And um based on what you've kind of just alluded to, the other two may not be in that same universe. It's possible. I mean, once I finish this book and I sit down to write, you know, I'm prepared for something else to feel pressing or important or relevant at the time.
Approach to Sequels
00:25:05
Speaker
um But the other two unless something changes are not in this universe. um okay I am doing some shorts though early next year. so um This past year, Subterranean Press released a short that I wrote for them called Goblins and Greatcoats, which is set in the same world and is actually my mystery.
00:25:25
Speaker
um it's it's ah It's kind of a little locked room mystery, um but it also is a bit subversive to like the the whole mechanics of a mystery. um And they wanted several more, so i've got I've got three or four more of those to write. That's cool. Yeah, because I was just thinking, I was wondering, and you've already mentioned Terry Pratchett, I was wondering if you were going to do a whole like Discworld thing.
00:25:51
Speaker
um I really like the way that he wrote his series, where every book stands on its own, and you can read or not read any one of them, and it doesn't it doesn't break the story. But the more of them you read, the kind of the better sense of the world you get and the people in it. And I really like that approach to writing, you know quote unquote, sequels.
00:26:16
Speaker
because I don't want to reread anything anymore. And I've kind of gotten a little tired um of reading the first four books in a series and then four years go by and I can't remember what happened. And my only option when the fifth book comes out is to go and reread everything again. I just don't have the time. So yeah I'm really appreciative of not having to do that to appreciate a new book release. So that's kind of my approach, I think, for writing sequels or books and series as I want them all to stand alone as much as humanly possible.
00:26:47
Speaker
um But hopefully people will want to read the other ones anyway. Yeah, it's always fun to have like an interconnected universe as well. yeah the The Sander verse, yeah. Yeah, exactly. The Cosmere. The Cosmere, yeah. Although those are like interconnected, but also each one is several books long there. Which I think is great. I love that he he writes so um writes with such variety while still keeping them connected. I think it's really cool.
00:27:16
Speaker
Yes, and across different age groups as well, and making us all look bad. We're at that point in the episode where I ship you off and ask you, Travis, if you were stranded on a desert island with a single book, which book do you hope that it would be? This one is really, really hard. um he Yeah.
00:27:37
Speaker
um
00:27:40
Speaker
especially because, you know, can you read, can you take a series? Maybe you get an omnibus. um Well, yeah, people have people have given me various different a sort of loophole. Yeah, I would probably say, you know, it's hard because I'm going to get sick of this book. Do I want to take my favorite book and get sick of it? Maybe, maybe. um I would probably say you just do the whole Lord of the Rings collection and just imagine that they were all bound together.
00:28:06
Speaker
um I think you can get them banned. So, that's probably what I would say. One person came on the podcast with an Amazon link to prove to me that you could buy all three books. In a single moment. See, that so I think that would probably be my answer. You get to cover a lot of territory there. um And it's a story that hasn't really gotten old for me yet. And I've been reading it for a long time. So, probably that's probably as good a reason as any.
00:28:33
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I mean, it's the most iconic fantasy series of all time for now. um I'm sure Brandon Sanderson is trying his hardest to just en masse. Yeah, just weight of words. Exactly right. You probably wrote a novel while we were having this discussion. It's coming out next week. um Yeah, I mean, it's it's the fantasy kind of series, isn't it? And it'll never get old, you would hope.
00:29:03
Speaker
ah Although, talking about what you were saying earlier, where sometimes you you you can hear how something is going to sound just by writing or reading it, there's a lot of pages just describing hills and its forests and trees. It's true, but I'm not obliged to read those, so um at least not on rep not not in not every time.
00:29:25
Speaker
yeah um Up next in the extended part of the episode, we are going to chat about a bit about writing process, audio book narration and and video games. And that will all be available on the Patreon. um and And I think the world would love to have it someday.
00:29:46
Speaker
Someday. Someday. Fingers crossed. um Listen, this is the end of the episode. It's been so awesome chatting with you, Travis. Thank you so much for calling. It's been so interesting hearing all about everything that you've been up to in your kind of your journey into publishing and and the twists and turns along the way. um Thank you so much for coming on.
00:30:06
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. It's been a real pleasure. And for anyone listening, if you want to keep following what Travis is doing, you can follow him on Twitter at TravisBaldry, on Instagram at Travis underscore Baldry, on Facebook at Travis Baldry narrator, or you can head over to his website, TravisBaldry.com. To support the podcast, like, follow and subscribe, join the Patreon for ad free extended episodes and check out my other podcasts, The Chosen Ones and other tropes. Thanks again to Travis and thanks to everyone listening. We will catch you on the next episode.