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074 - Why Kids Quit Sports & How to Fix It w/ Dr David Yeager
134 Plays26 days ago
Youth sports are hemorrhaging athletes at age 12—and the system that's supposed to develop them is actually driving them away.
In this episode, Dr. David Yeager, psychology professor at UT Austin and author of 10 to 25: The Science of Motivating Young People, breaks down exactly what's broken and how coaches can fix it.
Order 10 to 25: Science of Motivating Young People Book Now! - https://amzn.to/3LNa9kb
Dr. Yeager isn't just a researcher—he's in the trenches coaching his kids' baseball and basketball teams, and he's spent his career studying how adults can actually reach and motivate young athletes. In this conversation, we're tackling the hard truths about travel ball, the "joysticking" problem that's robbing kids of development, and why the enforcer and protector coaching mindsets are failing our athletes.
What You'll Learn:
- Why hockey is seeing a 20% decline in 12-14 year olds despite increased youth participation
- The three coaching mindsets and why only one actually works
- How U.S. Soccer turned around their development system (and why other sports haven't followed)
- The "Neurobiological Incompetence Model" and why we're wrong about teenage brains
- Chip Engelland's trust-building approach with NBA players (and how to apply it to your team)
- Why "wise feedback" beats the compliment sandwich every time
- How to reframe stress so athletes thrive under pressure instead of avoiding it
- The self-transcendent purpose approach that makes delayed gratification actually work
Dr. Yeager's work with the FUSE program is changing how teachers communicate with students across Texas, and his insights on coaching will change how you show up for your athletes. If you've ever wondered why kids fall out of love with sports or how to create an environment where they actually want to work hard, this episode is for you.
Training - Old Bull Program - 7 Day Free Trial - https://bit.ly/old-bull-train
Education - Why They're Not Listening: Coaching the Modern Athlete - http://listen.captainsandcoaches.com
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Coaching Approaches
00:00:00
Speaker
It's your job as a coach to help help them find a different way of accomplishing the goal. And the only way you're going to do that if you understand why they thought was working to begin with. But like benching you in the middle of the game, I see this all the time. Like some kid will miss a grounder and the coach is like, get on the bench.
00:00:14
Speaker
Like, and it's like, that's ridiculous. Like you should have coached the kid better. So it's not the kid's fault. Welcome to the captains and coaches podcast. We explore the art and science of leadership through the lens of athletics and beyond. I'm your host Tex McQuilkin. And today we are joined by Dr. David Yeager, psychology professor at the university of Texas at Austin.
00:00:33
Speaker
growth mindset expert and author of the book 10 to 25, The Science of Motivating Young People. Dr.
Guest Introduction: Dr. David Yeager
00:00:40
Speaker
Yeager also coaches his kids baseball and basketball teams, and he's spent his entire career studying how adults can actually reach and develop students in this fun conversation.
00:00:52
Speaker
We're breaking down the three coaching mindsets, mentor, enforcer, and protector, as well as why the travel ball system is broken and how to give feedback that actually builds trust and skill instead of fear and resentment.
Coaching Mindsets and System Flaws
00:01:06
Speaker
If you've ever wondered why kids quit sports or how to help them fall in love with the game while still holding high standards, this one's for you. Now, let's hand it off to Dr. Yeager to help us raise the game. Ready, ready, and great.
00:01:19
Speaker
love everything y'all are doing. I got to learn about that. Who's behind it. And then just so happens that you're a Austin, Texas local man. So appreciate you making time. I'd i'd love for you to lead off with fuse quickly, and then we're going to deep dive into some fun research.
00:01:35
Speaker
Yeah, sure. Um, so I'm a, I'm a psychology professor at the university of Texas at Austin, and I specialize in motivation of adolescents and how to reach them. And for a long time, we focused on like what mindset does a kid need in order to become motivated and grow, et cetera.
00:01:55
Speaker
But then in recent years, we focused on what the adults need to be saying and doing so that way they're supporting a young person's, for example, growth mindset.
Introducing the FUSE Program
00:02:04
Speaker
And one of the big lessons was that the way people communicate in in subtle ways and at powerful moments can make a big difference. Like, for example, when a student makes a mistake, how does the adult respond?
00:02:16
Speaker
Do they shame and blame? Are they mad at the kid? um Do they say, already told you this 19 times, why are you getting wrong? um Or are they curious about the reason for the mistake? And then do they work with a kid?
00:02:29
Speaker
So we created a program for teachers, we call it FUSE, that basically helps them to optimize the ways they communicate with young people in these day-to-day subtle ah ways.
00:02:42
Speaker
um So that way they create what we call more of a culture of learning in their classrooms. And in doing so, we found some really exciting, some of the best results we've ever had actually. Kids learn more, they're more engaged.
00:02:56
Speaker
And because of that, teacher well-being is better. So ah teachers say they're satisfied with their lives and their jobs more because they've got an engaged classroom because of this training on on communication.
00:03:06
Speaker
So it's an exciting new program that we're spreading across the state of Texas. And we actually just got support from the National Science Foundation to evaluate it across the state. And so we're really in the process of recruiting so that way we can estimate its impact and make it better.
Youth Athlete Perceptions and Motivation
00:03:22
Speaker
Yeah. And Fuse led me to your book, 10 to 25. So i've I've got a lot of highlights, a lot of notes and sticky sticky tags here to to deep dive into some questions.
00:03:36
Speaker
This was dense, but you did a great job of integrating some stories and I'm a big movie guy. So some movie references and yeah, so it was entertaining along the way. It's not just the facts getting thrown at at your face, man. So appreciate your writing style, helping keeping me engaged here to to prepare for this conversation.
00:03:59
Speaker
Yeah. i I do want to start with just the the neurobiological incompetence model. And it's almost a default way of thinking for teachers and coaches.
00:04:11
Speaker
Coaches get into this because they they love the sport or the sport gave them so much. And they don't necessarily have the same teaching and preparation tools that that a a formal teacher has.
00:04:23
Speaker
So they, they almost fall victim to this NIM more so than teachers. So it was cool to just see the approach and the research and then you just going after it.
00:04:36
Speaker
Yeah. And I guess I should say, presumably a lot of athletics coaches or, you know, your audience here, I, I've in past have been a basketball coach, but right now I'm a travel baseball coach. So I coach 13U and a nine U team and give free private lessons in my community for pitching and hitting.
00:04:55
Speaker
And so I spend like a lot of my time trying to figure out how to get a nine-year-old throw a baseball correctly, how to get a 14-year-old to use proper form and when they're fielding infield and, you know, um so any coaches out there, like I'm, I'm one of you, like I'm, I'll read anything.
00:05:15
Speaker
I'm, I'm skeptical of a lot of nonsense out there, but I've, I've done deep dives on Instagram and TikTok looking for that one crazy drill. So, um, uh, and then I, also and then I also coach basketball nine year olds and 10 year olds, but, um, the, uh, but I, I say that because, um, it's kind of interesting. There, there's a model of coaching that basically believes,
00:05:42
Speaker
All else equal, young people will take the laziest possible way to any task. And there are different ways of being lazy. One is just effort.
00:05:54
Speaker
But another is that your former mechanics will be the simplest and laziest and you know basically the the not right way to do it. And then because of that, you're going to form bad habits, bad muscle memory.
00:06:08
Speaker
And then you're like broken and we're never going to be able to fix you. or it's going to take too much time and effort, or your parents are going to have thousands of dollars in private lessons to fix whatever's wrong with your mechanics. And so it's it's a deficit model.
00:06:21
Speaker
and the And the deficit model is basically that that young people and young athletes are inherently lazy, short-sighted, taking shortcuts. And, um you know, there's there's like an alternative model, right?
00:06:37
Speaker
Well, sorry, let me let me just explain. That model comes in part from a narrative in our society that um what it means to be young is to have an immature brain. And that immature brain is incapable of planning ahead, using self-discipline, um you know delaying gratification now for the sake of long-term goals.
00:06:58
Speaker
Basically, that that our prefrontal cortex is immature, is basically like a wimpy muscle you've never used before. And, uh, and you can't rely on it.
00:07:10
Speaker
And there's a whole, ah history for that idea of the, of the underdeveloped prefrontal cortex. There's a version of it that goes back to ancient Greek philosophy that basically the passions rule and the, the, the mind, um, is, is weak in its ability to discipline the passions.
00:07:27
Speaker
And so what it means to be a virtuous person in ancient Greek philosophy is to, ah exert that kind of discipline over the passions and in the service of long-term goals. And then modern neuroscience kind of codified that and basically said the prefrontal cortex is the seat of disciplined reasoning and the amygdala and the and the nucleus accumbens, et cetera, that's the seat of like unbridled passions.
00:07:50
Speaker
And so the task is to use your prefrontal cortex to bridle the passionate parts of your brain. And like, I i get it. i understand where it's coming from, but that's, it's not quite right biologically. um And it also makes us do all kinds of dumb stuff.
00:08:05
Speaker
So the biological reason why it's wrong is that um the prefrontal cortex is for goal-directed behavior. So like in any goal is deep down a desire.
00:08:20
Speaker
it's it's it A goal is really ah ah desire to have a difference in the state of the world, right? That I i am at some level I'd like to be another level. I am having this certain level of pleasure. I'd like to have more of it. I'm having this certain amount of pain. I'd like to have less of it Like it just, and this is like non-controversial psychology that any goal just by definition is a desired change in some state of the world.
00:08:45
Speaker
And so if you think of that, then if the prefrontal cortex is for goal directed behavior, then its main job is actually to like serve the passions that the passions are in charge and the prefrontal cortex is the student.
00:08:59
Speaker
And there's a lot of ways in which that yeah you can kind of show that intuitively. So for example, a lot of adults complain, you won't go out there and like diligently practice, it you know, on your own in the heat and you know, whatever. Or if you're a teacher, like you won't go out there and do a bunch of trinomials worksheets.
00:09:16
Speaker
And so you lack discipline, you lack self-control, but like the same kid, if you ask them to sneak out of the house and go to a party, they're amazing at thinking ahead. They're like, who do I have to lie to?
00:09:28
Speaker
And like, where's a map of the sewers? And like, they're like, or like ask them to, to like learn to play guitar, to impress someone they have a crush on. It's like, they'll stay up all night.
00:09:39
Speaker
You know, their fingers are bleeding. And so there's all kinds of self-discipline when it's relevant to a goal that directly matters to them. And so often what happens is we think that there's just like a biological inability for young people to think and be disciplined and have self-control and to make good choices.
Training Programs and Critiques
00:09:57
Speaker
But often it's because we as adults have framed things in such a wrong way that the only reason why they would ever listen to us is out of fear or compliance. And fear or compliance is ah is like an okay way to get you to do something right now, but it's a terrible way to get you to do something on your own of your own free will when no one's making it Time out.
00:10:17
Speaker
Let's take a second to talk about training and introducing you to the old bull training program. This is the program that I'm following and writing for myself because i was bored and beat up with other training programs out there.
00:10:30
Speaker
Now I focus in on fun and a very time effective and efficient training program. It also targets different joint issues that I'm having. Shoulders, hips, back, knees, ankles. Everything from my athletic playing career and then career as a strength and conditioning coach. Lifting every single day.
00:10:49
Speaker
My body's beat up as I approach 40. This program is focused I'm building it back up in a very time-effective and efficient manner. I encourage you, check out the program. The most fun you'll have throughout the week and how I'm structuring the program and giving you the opportunity to choose your own adventure each day.
00:11:10
Speaker
For seven-day free trial, click the link in the show notes, check out the program, and join me on Old Bull. And now, back to the show. Ready, ready, and break. Yeah. And that sometimes leads to kids resenting coach or sport.
00:11:26
Speaker
And then what I want to avoid is kids then making decisions and behaviors to avoid punishment. They're not doing it because it's what's best for them or the team. They're doing it to not run.
00:11:38
Speaker
Then that's not helping anybody.
Travel Sports Systems and Player Development
00:11:40
Speaker
um Yeah. Or I mean, it's the the the stuff I see is unbelievable. You know, the the idea that a coach is going to bench you when you make a physical mistake.
00:11:51
Speaker
Like what's that supposed to teach them? Like never make a physical mistake or else you're going to be punished. So your reason for making a good play is a fear of punishment.
00:12:03
Speaker
But like, that's dumb. I mean, like if someone made a, and like a mental mistake is different. And by mental, I mean like just fully not paying attention. this is less a problem in like professional sports, but if you're coaching nine year olds, like they are like they their hands in their pants and they're sitting on the floor ground, you know, but like, but for a physical mistake, like their body had a way of accomplishing a goal that made sense to them.
00:12:32
Speaker
And that was a routine. And so, and and they didn't have an automatic routine to accomplish that goal using a different way of moving their bodies. So that's simply the product of like training, expertise, um coaching, you know, all like if something didn't make sense to them, you know, as a, as a way of accomplishing the goal.
00:12:54
Speaker
And so it's your job as a coach to help help them find a different way of accomplishing the goal. And the only way you're going to do that, if you understand why they thought was working to begin with. But like benching you in the middle of the game, I see this all the time. Like some kid will miss a grounder and the coach is like, get on the bench.
00:13:09
Speaker
Like, and it's like, that's ridiculous. Like you should have coached the kid better. So it's not the kid's fault. um Yeah. So anyway. yeah You're a travel coach and i I coach lacrosse. I'm at Austin high. So very close.
00:13:23
Speaker
The travel lacrosse, what they're pitching different. dues that are much more expensive than what it is to play for your, your high school right now. Oh, it's not just lacrosse hockey, soccer, yeah all of them.
00:13:38
Speaker
It's in there. Maybe six games they're missing. And then maybe in lacrosse or baseball, I get four at bats. I get four runs on the field. So I'm overpaying. I'm getting less opportunity, less development, less practice, less preparation.
00:13:53
Speaker
Sure. We're taking fun trips to wherever. However, we're not improving in our sport and with the detriment. And this is ah an interesting thing. A professional lacrosse player I'm connected with, he calls it joy sticking.
00:14:08
Speaker
So if I'm from the sideline, um I'm telling David, do this text, do that goal. I didn't teach them why that stuff worked. I just was controlling them like a video game.
00:14:18
Speaker
And then that doesn't teach them the principles to then come back to us at a high school who are getting paid less than minimum wage. coaches do that in all these sports. it's And in baseball, the metaphor is GI Joe figures. You like move their elbow and their foot and their head and they stand, you know, and like the kid never has a sense of why they should move their body in a certain way. Yeah.
00:14:42
Speaker
And, but yeah, the joy, yeah you know so 10 to 12 years in Apollo, I promise you, we can get back to the book here, but like, I, um I think about youth sports all the time now, and we have, we have a new major initiative.
00:14:54
Speaker
um We're trying to work across sports, including lacrosse. ah But our, some of our first stuff is with the NHL and we're presenting to the owners of the and NHL in a few weeks on, on, on basically why kids are quitting.
00:15:05
Speaker
at 12 U and, and even, even though there's been a 20% increase at six, eight and 10 U, uh, in hockey, that hasn't the, the yield, the percentage yield is worse than it was.
00:15:19
Speaker
And so there's actually 20% decline, uh, starting at, uh, 12 and 14 U, um, over the last 20 years. So, and that's just hockey. There's so many other sports. And so the, there are a lot of things wrong with it. There's, um,
00:15:34
Speaker
I'll give a version of, of work we did 15 years ago with U S soccer when they were, before they developed the U S academies. um The, the standard model was some coach would create a travel team.
00:15:48
Speaker
And usually it's someone with a fake British or Scottish accent. So then all the Texans are like, Oh, you must be good at soccer because you sound European. And then they walk and then they just will gobble up all that.
00:15:59
Speaker
kids who were precociously athletic at eight or nine or seven, uh, you know, regardless of the fact that lots of kids are going to catch up after puberty. Um, and then they'll create super teams and then they'll go around and just murder everybody.
00:16:12
Speaker
And since and then they get lots of trophies. So then parents fight to get their kids on that team because that's now the team that has all the trophies. But then since they've gobbled up all the good local players, then they have to travel.
00:16:23
Speaker
And now that team's traveling. all the time and the more trophies, the better for the coach. Uh, but what happens is that the kids are never actually practicing and getting better. yeah they're just playing games.
00:16:35
Speaker
And so, and, and they're out athletic, the other kids. Uh, so the, it's the even worse part is that in sports, especially soccer, but also like lacrosse and hockey, these are sports where you have to be mentally imagining where other players are before you make a play.
00:16:51
Speaker
Like basketball a little bit too, but it's not anywhere near as complex as soccer. Like you gotta know where so many people are in your head in soccer. So the best soccer players are not the biggest, strongest, like, you know, fullbacks from football or American football.
00:17:04
Speaker
It's people who are playing four passes ahead in their head. And the only way you do that is if you knew that everyone else on the field was running to where they're supposed to be running because they too are playing the correct game.
00:17:15
Speaker
And the only way you do that is if you're playing against competition where everybody is at a level where they're actually have been, have built their skills, they're dribbling, passing, shooting skills to the level where they can play the game properly.
00:17:28
Speaker
So when you create super teams, you basically never have to play the game in your head because you can out athlete everybody.
Coaching Practices: U.S. vs. Germany
00:17:34
Speaker
And because of that forever, what happened is that America would have these super teams they'd pick the best of them, put them on our thirteen new fourteen year We could beat Brazil at 13 and 14 U, but the many get to 16, 17. We just get murdered by Brazil and Argentina and Germany and the Netherlands, stuff like that.
00:17:50
Speaker
Because all these other countries have teams with parity where the bottom of the distribution is pulled up and you're forced to play the game in your head. And so what that suggested to the U.S. soccer, this is Jay Berhalter who's running this. He's an amazing guy.
00:18:08
Speaker
um What that suggested is that we're doing it all wrong in the U.S., We're trying to basically optimize a system for individual glory so that you can get a 112 scholarship to UNC in like eight years.
00:18:21
Speaker
But like, that's a ridiculous system and it makes us worse as a country at, at soccer. ah And so their idea was basically fewer games, more practices, high quality practices in greater parity where you have to actually play the game in your head in order to compete.
00:18:43
Speaker
And then the problem was nobody knew how to coach a team that way because all the parents expected a certain thing and the coaches expected a certain thing. And specifically what parents expect is that ah what a coach does is constantly be in your ear and make like your low quality, undisciplined, low skilled player into a high skilled player because they're, they're talking to them nonstop.
00:19:12
Speaker
And so if you, in America, if you went to a practice and a coach never talked to a player, you'd be like, that's a lazy coach. Like, I'm not, what am I paying for? Right. If you go to a practice in Germany, it's like the quietest thing in the world.
00:19:27
Speaker
It's, it's literally children playing soccer, which sounds absurd. Like, but that's, that's what they do is children play the game. And then guess what they learn how to do is play the game in their heads.
00:19:41
Speaker
And then Then you go to the games in America. You go to any game like lacrosse, soccer, parents are screaming their heads off from the stands the entire time. And they're telling their kid where to go. And the coaches are telling their kids where to go.
00:19:55
Speaker
And everybody's yelling at the kids where to go. Like this is the joy sticking. You go to game in Germany. It's like a funeral. Nobody's talking. It's dead silent. And guess what? Children are playing soccer.
00:20:08
Speaker
And they murder us when they get to the World Cup. And so like 15 years ago, there were, i think, zero Americans in the top like Premier League level of soccer. And it's an open market. They could buy any good player in the world. So if we were good enough, there would be some.
00:20:22
Speaker
And now there's, i don't know, 15, 20. There's a lot more ah because they've totally overhauled how they do it. But no other sport has followed suit.
Parental Influence in Youth Sports
00:20:30
Speaker
um And still soccer has stuff to work on. but they are 15 years ahead of every other sport in America um because they actually kind of figured out the problem.
00:20:39
Speaker
Yeah. And man, you youth soccer is a business and in every part of Austin, for sure. And every part of any major city, it's it's it's interesting that they reach that point and having friends that are are coaching at the division one level and basically we're on the same page with travel ball when they're recruiting.
00:21:00
Speaker
If they see the same name in four different towns in this summer and their eighth, ninth grade, they actually crossed that kid off because they know from their experience. Now, when that kid is a future sophomore at college burnout.
00:21:15
Speaker
So they're like, yeah or their parents are Looney Tunes. And like, you know, I, I, I think so much of this is driven by parents. And we could talk a lot about that. This is our new research. we're We're trying to get to the bottom of what's wrong with parents, not just with youth sports, but all the crazy stuff they do in school and the ways that they harass teachers and stuff like that.
00:21:36
Speaker
But like um parents make guesses about what is necessary to impress an imagined future audience.
00:21:47
Speaker
So they they're making guesses at seven, eight, nine about what sports their kids should play and at what intensity. based on what will impress a scout in 10 years, nine years.
00:22:01
Speaker
And, uh, not only is that kind of ridiculous, but like, um, they're just not right about their guesses a lot of times because I talked to, we have a new project with Notre Dame soccer, um,
00:22:15
Speaker
and i And I was there the summer. I talked to their men's and women's lacrosse coaches. I'm sure you know, these people. I'm going up there in October to observe practice and interview one of the coaches. Yeah. love it Yeah. They're all, they're all great.
00:22:26
Speaker
And they, you could talk to them about my book, but like, they don't like the system, you know, like parents think and travel teams think, Oh, college coaches love the system because now they can go to just a few showcases and see these like super players. Yeah.
00:22:40
Speaker
And yeah, i mean, it's a little more convenient, but like they don't, they don't like the state that athletes are in when they show up on campus. um And there's all kinds of crazy stuff that they have to deal with now.
00:22:55
Speaker
um And on top of that, there are a lot of great players that are not in the pipeline because frankly, a lot of mediocre athletes bought their way onto the early travel teams at a really young age. And then you get the non-elite super athletes are taking up a lot of the spots on these like top travel teams.
00:23:12
Speaker
And it might seem, oh, well, they're dedicated because they, but like, no, they're not. There's parents that made them do it forever. And a lot of those kids hate those sports and they switch to a different sport in college or just do rec league stuff.
00:23:23
Speaker
So um it's a terrible system. And the only people that benefit are the private equity companies that have bought up all the travel teams. And they don't care about anybody. They don't care about the youth. They don't care about like society.
00:23:37
Speaker
um And it's a massively unfair system. And that now if I'm eight and I haven't started hockey, like I'm not, I'm never going to be a good hockey player at eight, like soccer also. you know baseball you can't really start at 10. you know those kids are about to be on espn at 10. so um like it's it's it contributes to the overall belief that society is unfair that i have no place in in the world um that everything's stacked against me and that is fuel for extremism it's fuel for disbelief in democracy there's all kinds of issues
00:24:12
Speaker
happening and we're just letting the travel teams run it. And everyone's like, oh well, what am I going to do? The travel teams are in charge. And that's what the college coaches, what like college coaches hate it. Pro coaches hate it. Parents hate it and kids hate it.
00:24:24
Speaker
So like, why is no one doing anything about it? Because I call it fantastic lies. So and I've i've been ah my team. i was I was a dripping springs and we had an ah opposing rival coach.
00:24:38
Speaker
I won't say his high school, but he was one on one private. One of our freshmen. And he just planted a seed of how amazing this freshman was. He was going to be the next ex-player at this school, university, division one scholarship, everything.
00:24:53
Speaker
And then that gentleman did not, he made varsity as a freshman. He did not start on varsity as a freshman. And then dad was like, what are we doing here? And he, it was better for his son to quit the team and not play.
00:25:06
Speaker
Then and then just sit as a freshman on varsity behind it. And then he got the whole freshman class to then quit the team. And I've I've never seen anything like it. They he convinced our JV parents to then actively go to our varsity games and root against our varsity team.
00:25:28
Speaker
And they were filming our pre postgame halftime show speeches. And if we cursed. all over Facebook of how terrible people we were. And now, I mean, the, the program is set back five plus years, all the staff, uh, bowed out and walked away from that unfortunate community nastiness. And, uh, it's unfortunate, man. And I,
00:25:51
Speaker
Never in my my wildest dreams did I expect that. And i that's why I refer to his fantastic lives because, I mean, the seed was planted in this kid. And unfortunately, now he's not going to go play in college because of dad's decision to no longer be with the program.
00:26:08
Speaker
Yeah. And then, i I mean, I think the challenge you know, that kids kids do extreme things when they feel like the things happening to them are extremely bad.
00:26:20
Speaker
And so part of it is like an accurate assessment of an unjust system. And then they feel boxed into a corner. And, you know, i mean, high school coaches, it's hard to, high school coaches are underappreciated and underpaid.
Community Building in Coaching
00:26:35
Speaker
And so like, I get it.
00:26:37
Speaker
um And um they have not done a good job of creating like broadly accessible recreational pathways into their sport.
00:26:48
Speaker
And so what you get is in a big place like brown rock where you've got six a you know high schools there are four times more kids who have been paying for three seasons per year of their sport than can make even the jv team yeah and so like they're like you know talked to parents who like they're they got kids who are in basketball. They've played, they play three AAU seasons per year, plus their middle school season.
00:27:20
Speaker
And then they make it to high school and then 50 kids try out. And then there's like 11. Well, it's like, that's a lot of people who really liked basketball that might grow like Dennis Rodman grew like eight inches in high school.
00:27:32
Speaker
Like you have no idea what's going to happen these people. And you know, three more years is a lot of time to like become an amazing jump shooter and like master three points and and or become an incredible dribbler.
00:27:44
Speaker
And like, now you just don't exist in the high school coaches. Like, like i I think that once we start, mean, part of it is the obsession with winning in Texas, but like what once you start thinking of yourself as ah builder of a community around your sport, rather than, ah so you know, short-term competitive, then you start having like a program that extends beyond the specific guys or girls you're coaching.
00:28:16
Speaker
um And then creates a view that, that your efforts are worthwhile and who wouldn't want to have an additional 50 players continually practicing and jockeying to become good enough to be a star on your varsity team and have a root for your late blossomers.
00:28:33
Speaker
There's a, there's a, know, I'm an Astros fan. I I'm allowed to say that in Texas. Yeah. But ah you know, we had a guy, Ryan Gusto, Uh, this year we traded him cause he became a great asset, but, uh, he played like travel baseball, but never made his high school team.
00:28:50
Speaker
And every year he tried out and coach was like, no, you're not good enough. And then he got like accepted, uh, recruited for junior college. and And he already had the letter before his senior year of high school. He's going to pitch at a junior college and his high school, which was still like, no, you're not good enough.
00:29:05
Speaker
It's like, And then he went to junior college was great. And then went to a four year college was great for a year and then got drafted and then was a starter for the Astros, like eight or 12 starts this year. And then was an important trade asset. Like guy never high school coach was like, no, don't want you like, that's weird.
00:29:22
Speaker
You know, that we don't, we don't create pathways, um, not just for late bloomers, but to love the sport.
Financial Aspects and Fandom in Sports
00:29:30
Speaker
And, and then when you don't have a chance to love the sport, then,
00:29:35
Speaker
the pro team should care because now you've lost people who could be lifelong fans. Like someone who, who played the sport at a varsity level, the amount of money they will spend on their favorite team in that sport over their lifetime is something like a hundred thousand dollars.
00:29:53
Speaker
Yeah, I believe it. And so like that's the owners of like Astros and the Rangers, like they're losing potentially tens or hundreds of millions of dollars because in like for every sport, it's the same thing.
Innovative Sports Formats
00:30:05
Speaker
yeah the ah Yeah, I went to Astros opening day. It was on my birthday. So went to the game with my dad. So like I'm um going to multiple games a year the and go Texans too.
00:30:18
Speaker
um i want I want to aim to highlight just lacrosse while I have the opportunity with you and teach you something. The premier lacrosse league, the PLL, the professional level, how they're growing the game right now instead of ah different teams in different cities and you travel back and forth.
00:30:35
Speaker
It's actually a traveling tournament. So each week during the summer, they're going to Baltimore, they're going to Albany, they're going to Utah and San Francisco. And that's their aim to help grow the game and create the spark in their local community. So that that's been going on since 2019.
00:30:52
Speaker
And there' they're thinking outside the box to help grow and and target the youth and create this fandom for for the the growth of sport. um So I thought you'd appreciate that.
00:31:06
Speaker
um Yeah, for sure. Well, and and I think um ah the traveling idea is great. We went to Savannah Bananas this summer. It was awesome. And, yeah you know, they're growing the game.
00:31:18
Speaker
It's great. They're, yeah, I heard they're going to be at the All-Star Game next year in some form of games in capacity to bring the the major leaguers into some some of their shenanigans. Yeah.
00:31:31
Speaker
it's great. my my My kids love taking pop ups now because they we in practice with trick catches. Oh, because that was a fan of man. So it's great.
Trust and Feedback in Coaching
00:31:40
Speaker
That that is one freedom that we give within lacrosse, as especially towards the end of practice is just this creativity in this style, because there's moments if if you are perfect in fundamentals, defense stops you.
00:31:54
Speaker
So then there's this opportunity to use your body and be creative. And there's a ah sense to aim to encourage that. And that increases athletic awareness, situational awareness.
00:32:05
Speaker
And then you've tried that trick shot 15 times and you got the confidence to try it in a game. And that's where some highlights happen. Yeah. When I interviewed Shane Battier, who's a former Duke basketball player about Chip England, who's this amazing ah shooting coach for the San Antonio Spurs and later Oklahoma city thunder.
00:32:25
Speaker
um You know, the practices are intense. He's working on the details and giving you lots of feedback, but he always ends, least according to Shane, with like trick shots, like, you know, shoot over the head or throw it over the back. Like, you know, there's always some goofy thing at the end um where it's got the dual purpose of moving your body in different ways that aren't the constrained ways you would only do it in the game. and But that range of motion helps, but also just the love of the game and wanting to get out there and practice more.
00:32:59
Speaker
So, yeah. Yeah. I love that. And you highlighted chip a lot in the book. And one, one cool aspect is how he cues and connects instead of immediately after a mistake,
00:33:10
Speaker
He asked the athlete, how did that feel? And i I thought that was a wonderful highlight in there. Can you speak to the connection to his coaching technique and cue right there to what you've experienced in the research?
00:33:25
Speaker
Yeah, so as a little background, there so Chip was a Duke basketball player himself. He was Coach K's. He was a captain of Coach K's first conference winning team in the early eighty s um and then played professionally overseas and so on. And then kind of, when he came back, decided to work with guys one-on-one on shooting and then eventually developed a reputation really through some work at summer camps and and shooting camps so as a go-to person.
00:33:57
Speaker
And ah so in the early 2000s, Greg Popovich hired him on as the shooting coach for the San Antonio Spurs. And they had won one or two of their championships, ah but they had just drafted Tony Parker.
00:34:12
Speaker
You know, they had not drafted Kawhi Leonard yet. There were a lot of guys where they were good at everything except shooting. And for a long time, NBA teams thought shooting is a skill you either draft or you wait till they're an older aging player. And then you bring them in to like, just like a Ray Allen, you bring him to just be a shooter the of their career.
00:34:36
Speaker
And ship's thought was like, Look, if you're in the NBA, like you deep down, you're probably good shooter. You have good aim. yeah But the problem is that a lot of guys were so strong, so young that they could get away with bad form in AAU basketball because they could score at the rim or in mid-range shots, um or they're so good at rebounding, they could just shoot and get thrown and rebound.
00:35:02
Speaker
So they never really had to develop the proper shooting mechanics. And like Kawhi Leonard was an example of this. And so he like would fling the ball over his shoulder, which is what you do when you're seven shooting a three pointer.
00:35:15
Speaker
And if you're like precociously strong and playing with 10 year olds, cause you're an amazing athlete, then that's what you would do. And so he just learned to do that, never unlearned it. And so draft comes around other teams like this guy's a bad shooter.
00:35:28
Speaker
and chips like this guy's is the one of the best athletes of all time. Like he just, it's like a relief sculpture. You have extra bells and whistles that don't need to be there and you need to whittle, you need to remove things. So that way your shots repeatable and do it the same way every time.
00:35:43
Speaker
um And so that's, that's a philosophy. You know, the the conventional philosophy is if you have bad former mechanics, like in your jump shot, it's because you were like lazily or short sighted or taking shortcuts or,
00:35:58
Speaker
never had the discipline to practice correctly. And so it's almost like viewed as a character flaw. um and and And because it's a character flaw, then most coaches would say, there's no way we're going to fix it.
00:36:10
Speaker
And by the way, the NFL has given it up on trying to fix quarterbacks. right is Alex Smith, when was on in his podcast, he confirmed this. He's like, that no one would ever try to deal with a quarterback's throw anymore.
00:36:21
Speaker
but in And in the NBA, that's the way i was the philosophy. But then Chip figured out that, look, I mean, there are things you can do. You can make a shot repeatable, but you have to practice in a certain way and train in a certain way.
00:36:36
Speaker
And, and so that the challenge is not, can you get better with practice? The challenge is, can you build enough trust between the coach and the player so that the player is willing to do the practice?
00:36:48
Speaker
Now, a lot of people are like, oh, willing to do it means they don't want to work. They just want to keep their millions. And like, Yeah, but really the issue is if you mess with your shot and make it worse, then you're going to get benched. And if you're benched, you get cut because of the contract situation in the NBA.
00:37:04
Speaker
And so like the most important challenge then is to build enough trust that the player is willing to alter something significant about their form and mechanics.
00:37:15
Speaker
And then um over time, they will get better if they do the proper practicing. And so he became a master at creating trust. And that's really why I wanted to talk to him is because he's got these players with everything on the line and he's got to build a relationship with them and then get them to take the risk.
00:37:36
Speaker
And so he'll say things like, look, I'm not saying you have a bad shot. It's you have a good shot. It just needs a tune up, you know? And like, no one thought Kawhi Leonard needed a tune up. They thought he needed to like not play.
00:37:48
Speaker
Right. And so he's same thing to Shane Battier. They were like, He was like, look, you're a good shooter. And that's not really the narrative. So it's starting with an affirmation of what they're doing right.
00:37:58
Speaker
And then troubleshooting on what they're not doing right. Being honest about what they're not doing right. But then the last thing that I'll say is that it's very similar to the soccer example.
00:38:09
Speaker
He's trying to have them be the coach in the head. So instead of saying your thumb was here, your pinky was here, your knee was here, you did, you know, and then GI Joe and you to the,
00:38:21
Speaker
take a shot, he's like, huh, how was that shot? Or what, how did that feel? And he won't even look at the ball went in. He has this concept of a bad make and a good miss.
00:38:33
Speaker
It's like, did you do it? Is your process right? And players are like, oh, I made it. So must be good. But it's like, the goal is over a thousand shots to hit, you know, 43% rather than 33%.
00:38:45
Speaker
three percent rather than thirty three percent But like in 10 shots, you can't tell the difference between 43% shot and in a 33% shot because that's one make, which could be random. So its you you have to he's thinking about the long game of the total volume of shots and then increasing the overall percentages.
00:39:04
Speaker
And then he he thinks the only way he can get you there is if you're training and practicing outside of the time that you're with him. And the only way to do that is if they have him in his head.
00:39:15
Speaker
And so the whole coaching thing, it's not just that he knows what's wrong with your shot. It's that he's helping you own it. And he's focusing more on process than outcome. And he's never judgmental and disappointed and mad, ah but he's honest.
00:39:30
Speaker
um But then he's, he's very reassuring. He's like, look, I'm with you for the ups and the downs and the all arounds, and I'm not going to quit on you.
Effective Feedback for Parents and Coaches
00:39:37
Speaker
And then yeah that's how you go from thunder three years ago, where the worst team in the NBA, they had the lowest shooting percentage.
00:39:45
Speaker
Their average age was younger than the average college team. So they were a bunch of 19 and 20 and 21 year olds. And then they just won the NBA title and they had the best shooting percentages. Right. and And like you can go to ESPN and look down the line at like free throw percentages and three point percentages for every player that's been on the team for all three years. And they're all up. And it's amazing.
00:40:05
Speaker
Yeah. And you label this as a teachable moment, wise feedback. So this step-by-step that you can practically apply. And ah love that you're going after the compliment sandwich because that seems to be, i I help out with youth a lot.
00:40:21
Speaker
And then you get younger coaches who are fresh out of college. They're either many of your mindsets we're going to get into in a moment. So this is a tool I'm certainly going to bring to them to help them just step into this role, meeting the kids where they're at, because they're not your former college self.
00:40:40
Speaker
They're just getting into this. Let's help them fall in love. And yeah, wise feedback is approached now that I certainly can take to the field with me. So I love love that label.
00:40:52
Speaker
it's Yeah. I mean, that comes from my collaborator, Jeff Cohen. He coined that term. But um that the default is is, as you say, the compliment sandwich. And then the logic of the compliment sandwich, of course, is that you're worried you're going to hurt people's feelings.
00:41:10
Speaker
with criticism. And so first you say something to elevate their feelings. It's like mental math or something, right? I add a positive number and then I have a negative number and I make sure to add another positive number.
00:41:23
Speaker
And, um but that's not really how it works because what you're not worried about is if it's a net positive interaction. What you're worried about is like when you're criticized by a coach or an expert, your worry is that they think you're incompetent.
00:41:38
Speaker
and that you're no good and that you can't do anything good. And then, and then you're like, all you ever focus on is my flaws. You must think that I'm, that I have no strengths, that there's nothing good about me. And so, um, the, the way around it is to address the fear that the coach thinks the player is no good and do it transparently.
00:42:04
Speaker
And it's by saying, look, I'm going to give you criticism on what you need to change. I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't believe you could be a high level player. ah you know, if you implement this and practice it and get better at it, you you know, I'm, you I'm spending my time on you because I believe in you.
00:42:18
Speaker
Um, but I need to be honest with you. And so here's, here's the thing I need you work on. Now i I've, in my coaching, I've learned to expand on that research.
00:42:32
Speaker
And I say things a little differently, like, with my, when I coach my kids, I've found that I have to first say, I love you. Like, I love you.
00:42:43
Speaker
And I love you too much to let you go to a game with that swing because, but it, but it's not like, cause you're gonna embarrass me. It's like, you're just not gonna consistently get on base.
00:42:56
Speaker
And if you're not consistently on base, you're not having fun. And it is my job as your parent to help you have a total blast in sports. And unfortunately you have to have a certain level of skill in order to have a total blast. And so we got to do this really hard practice now um because I care about you, but then i guarantee if you do it right, pretty soon you're going to start having good plays.
00:43:21
Speaker
And then that's going to be a lot of fun. going be with your friends. They're going to give you high fives. You're going to feel good about yourself. And I want you to have that experience. You know um my son's baseball coach, my older son,
00:43:34
Speaker
When there's an inning where everyone's kicking the ball around, millionaires, they you know you give up 17 runs or something in a half inning, it's brutal. right Literally, 13U, you can score infinity runs. right and um Walk turns into a home run, all this stuff.
00:43:51
Speaker
Rather than come and just yell his head off, like and then give a lot, like as they come out of the field and before they go in the dugout. He doesn't sit there with a long list of all the things they did.
00:44:02
Speaker
Right. He's like, all right, guys, I love you. I'm going to say two things. The two people I'm going to talk about, I'm not picking on you. lot of guys made mistakes, but I'm saying this because these are two important things we got to work on.
00:44:16
Speaker
And they're things I know we can fix in this game. So that's why i'm going say it now, you know, for you, you got to hit the cutoff, you know, you, you got to cover third or whatever it is. And they're like, all right, let's go ahead.
Mindsets Impact on Athlete Development
00:44:27
Speaker
But it's like,
00:44:28
Speaker
never a question whether he loves them and they don't have to sit there wondering why the coach called on, called out them and not somebody else. Okay. And so the main lesson it, yes, it's wide feedback, but the main lesson is transparency about what you're doing as a coach in your mind.
00:44:46
Speaker
Of course, you're picking the most convenient things to, to bring out that you can actually address in the game because that's the appropriate time for them. But they're not thinking that they're thinking the coach is sitting there hating me and it's going bench me or doesn't like me or whatever. Right.
00:44:58
Speaker
And if you don't, if you're not clear about what you're doing, they are free to presume that. And guess what? They're usually right about that presumption because of how crappy a lot of coaching is.
00:45:10
Speaker
And so they're reasonable to wonder all that stuff. Even UT's volleyball coach, I watched their practices. You know, if if they, if UT women's volleyball, there's, you know, they're the best in the country usually.
00:45:22
Speaker
um So they have a lot of players transfer in and they transfer in sometimes from other programs where the coaches all yell, tell blame and shame, like Bobby Knight chair throwing stuff.
00:45:35
Speaker
And so if the coach is critiquing a player in women's volleyball, it's usually because they're threatening to bench them. UT's coach actually wants to make the players better and wants to make them feel comfortable.
00:45:48
Speaker
but he's learned he can't just stand next to a player while they're practicing because they're worried the whole time that he's judging them. So he has to be transparent about what he's doing and why, otherwise they get freaked out about it.
00:46:00
Speaker
Yeah. And you've highlighted these so far. i want to to label them and get into some conversation with it. Your three different mindsets that either establish a growth or a fixed mindset. Can you introduce those three and then work it into our conversation here?
00:46:17
Speaker
Yeah, so what i this wise feedback of, you know, saying it's coming from high standards, saying I'm here to support you, what Chip Ingle is doing, I call that style the mentor mindset.
00:46:28
Speaker
And that's very simply a style in which you have very high standards and very high support. And so, and I call it mentor mindset because all a mentor is is someone who aligns their resources and expertise and knowledge with someone else's wellbeing and development.
00:46:44
Speaker
And, um, ah mentor doesn't have to mean you meet every Thursday for coffee to tell them what to do with their lives, right? It can just be, um, whatever expertise or resource I had, I'm using it for your benefit in this moment.
00:46:59
Speaker
Um, there are two contrasts though, to that mentor mindset. One is what I call the enforcer mindset. And this is like all standards, no support. And there I'm just, I have a strict standard.
00:47:12
Speaker
i' I'm a disciplinarian and I'm going to enforce that standard and you can meet it or not. But if you don't, it's going to be harsh consequences. Okay. um But I refuse to relent.
00:47:23
Speaker
And that's one kind of overdoing it. The other kind is what I call the protector mindset. So that's low standards, high support. And that's someone who's like, just go have fun out there.
00:47:35
Speaker
care about you no matter what. That's basically, this might be a hot take, but that's basically Ted Lasso in the first two seasons of Ted Lasso is like, you know I'm not going to really tell you to do anything differently.
00:47:46
Speaker
um I just, you know, I'm here for you. And um what's, what's interesting is that I think both of those approaches are flawed and I understand where they come from.
00:48:01
Speaker
Like, I understand why people are enforcers, right? They just say, I have high standards and, and suffering and pain is the price of excellence. And if you want to be great, then you have to be okay with somebody yelling at you all the time and telling you how terrible you are.
00:48:18
Speaker
And that's just, that's the price of excellence, you know? And ah like, I wish I could be nice and have you be great, but, i but that's not going to work. And, um,
00:48:31
Speaker
Like they, they really have a theory that that is the most effective thing. Regrettable though. It is usually like no one wants to go home at night and know that hundreds of kids hate them, you know, but like, it's like, that's what it takes to be a champion.
00:48:45
Speaker
That's the thought. Time out. Text here at train heroic headquarters meeting with the team to talk about the coaching experience that I'm able to provide for my athletes. So if you're a coach and want to put your program out there on an app that athletes actually enjoy using train heroic for you. I've been using it since 2014.
00:49:05
Speaker
delivering literally over tens of thousands of workouts to athletes. And Train Heroic allows me to provide the unique coaching experience that I want to. Uploading video, providing coaching feedback, directions, and building a community. That's why I love Train Heroic.
00:49:20
Speaker
And if you want to take your athletes where they can't take themselves, that they want to go, head to trainheroic.com slash captains and check out how you can deliver programming to them.
00:49:31
Speaker
And now, back to the show. Ready, ready, and we're in.
00:49:36
Speaker
And then another version is, you know, saying kids are going through too much. They're so stressed out. They've, there's this, everything is so demanding. They're anxious. um We can't expect more of them.
00:49:49
Speaker
You know, kids are fragile these days. They're, they're falling apart like wet tissue paper. So um at at a minimum, I'm going to be one of the supporters, you know, I'm going to help them and I'm going to be one of the good guys.
00:50:03
Speaker
And so I understand why people do that too. The problem is the enforcer ends up having only a tiny subset of people who become successful because the standards were so high, they might've compensated with support elsewhere.
00:50:16
Speaker
Often it's like by paying for private lessons or other things like that, or they just have precociously natural talent and everyone else is down here and they just, it's, and so for the majority of people, it feels unfair and abusive.
00:50:31
Speaker
And then unfortunately, the tiny minority are the ones who go on to be like pros or college athletes because they thrive. They would thrive in any context.
00:50:42
Speaker
Nothing the coach did. um And then the coach for the rest of their lives would be like, see, this works because I got someone, you know, to Duke lacrosse. And yeah um but it had nothing to do with you.
00:50:53
Speaker
It's like you were a garbage coach and they, you know, they benefited despite you, not because of you. Yeah, and that that's one assumption i'm I'm going after that sports don't teach lessons.
00:51:04
Speaker
Coaches do. So aiming to to to bring some great education, and like your research and approaches here, and hand those office tools to coaches.
00:51:15
Speaker
In the same respect, I want to help athletes within that enforcer situation. I had two college coaches. One was enforcer through and through, and we gelled so well together for a mutual, hey, we're not going to let him win.
00:51:30
Speaker
So I do understand the value that I have for it, but there is no reason that like we we should have been blamed and shamed the the way we were. That was a much deeper root with that individual.
00:51:42
Speaker
um And he was taking that on us, unfortunately. So, man, I've taken away so much just from these these words. And then the the research and connection to the book has been so valuable for me, man. It it It kept me engaged throughout just knowing that I've had those coaches that are leaving coaches scars.
00:52:03
Speaker
And in the same respect, I've made a lot of these mistakes too. I've been enforcer at times. I've been protector at times and aim every single day to to step into this this mentor mindset because of the weight and responsibility that I know that I have every single day, man. So yeah i do appreciate it.
00:52:21
Speaker
You know, a fear a a lot of people have is that if they are more supportive or flexible, then players will walk all over them and then there'll be a lack of discipline, right? The worst insult you can give a coach is to say their team looks undisciplined, right?
00:52:38
Speaker
And so we coaches live in fear of that. But the reality is you can care about a player and be totally flexible in how they get better and how they accomplish their goals while still having super high standards for performance and yeah not so much performance as preparation.
00:53:00
Speaker
Like you can be really, really demanding on the amount of preparation people do and how seriously they take it and how open they are to self-scrutiny and and criticism while also showing extreme care and concern and flexibility.
00:53:18
Speaker
And in the classroom, I call this the difference between intellectual standards and logistical standards. So they're like professors, an organic chemistry professor, you know, says, look to your left, look to your right. Half of you are never going to be doctors. You know, these like gatekeeper professors.
00:53:32
Speaker
Some of them say, i need to have this like one and done, all or nothing midterm, one or done, all or nothing final. You pass it or you don't. And if you don't, you're failure. You'll never be a doctor because that's the only way people will take the class seriously enough to learn.
00:53:48
Speaker
And that's the only way I know I've only passed on the people that are doctor material. And so they have these like rigid, inflexible systems. But the reality is your job as a professor should be to get everyone to master the intellectual material.
00:54:05
Speaker
Like everyone in your class who paid for your class should leave knowing in their head organic chemistry, if that's your discipline. you know? So you should have extremely high intellectual standards, but you shouldn't really care logistically how people go about meeting that standard.
00:54:23
Speaker
If it takes some people two times, if they take the test twice and go study in between, why do you care? You know, like you should have a system that can have a learning slope that looks like this over time, like a logarithmic slope, you know, rather than ah just a linear slope.
00:54:40
Speaker
And it shouldn't matter to you that Some people, it clicks in December and other people, it clicks in September. And so I think similarly in and sports, people mistake like logistical rigidity um for like athletic
Learning from Mistakes and Stress Management
00:54:56
Speaker
standards. you know um and then they there's and And yes, you do need discipline in terms of meetings on time, practice on time, you know all that other kind of stuff.
00:55:06
Speaker
But like honest mistakes should never be punished in sports. ever. Like yeah it it should be, huh Why did your body think that was the right way to do it? Let's talk about that and let's figure it out and let me give you a different drill or let me give you a new challenge for what to work on.
00:55:27
Speaker
But it shouldn't be you're a bad player or you don't care because you made a physical mistake. Like that should never be anyone's approach. Yeah. And ah that that lead me leads to my next question on on stress. In my mind, just coming from strength and conditioning and kinesiology, stress equals adaptation in my mind or skill acquisition and coordination.
00:55:51
Speaker
And I liked how you broke down stress for mindset. So can you walk us through that and how a coach can ah approach stress that it's not a bad thing?
00:56:02
Speaker
Yeah. So this is research in... um
00:56:07
Speaker
uh, chapter seven of my book. And, and, and I should say this grows out of collaborative research with Chris Bryan, who's a professor of Texas and Jeremy Jameson, who's a professor at Rochester and and we're building on a lot, but basically what the way psychologists think about stress is stress is any conflict between, ah what you want in the world and what is currently happening in the world.
00:56:31
Speaker
So, Like it's the, it's the result of a goal conflict. So you, you want to give a successful presentation and you're not, you know, you feel unprepared to give a successful presentation, right?
00:56:42
Speaker
Um, you know, you want to lift this heavy weight and you haven't yet lifted the heavy weight and you're, you're trying to change it right now. And so yeah it causes stress when you're trying to reduce the disparity between a desired end state in the world and a current state of the world.
00:56:56
Speaker
And so given that, um, It's weird that as a society, we have demonized all stress. Like that is the narrative is that if a kid is stressed and you care about them, then your job as a parent or a teacher or whatever is to reduce that stress.
00:57:13
Speaker
um And if you don't, then you're a monster. And that's weird because stress is a natural side effect of any meaningful goal striving. Like if you are trying to do something important and meaningful that matters to you,
00:57:29
Speaker
and it is not coming easily, it will, it's definition of stress is is your response to that disparity between what you want to be doing and what you're currently able to do. um So getting better, it's not like it's stressful is like a side effect. It's like it it is stress.
00:57:48
Speaker
And so you need to think differently about it. And the The problem is that we equivocate in the language. When when people say stress what and they say, I'm stressed, I'm stressed out, what they mean is that they're having a bad stress response, that there's a stressor, there's some stressor that they're responding to, and they're responding to it in an ineffective way.
00:58:09
Speaker
And so a bad stress response is one in which your mind thinks the demand is high and the resources are low. There's a disparity between your perception of the of what you're being asked to do and your perception of what you're capable of doing.
00:58:23
Speaker
That disparity leads to what we call threat type stress. And that's the kind of dread, oh no, I'll never do this, you know, overwhelmed. i want to avoid this at all costs, you know, impending failure.
00:58:35
Speaker
That's threat type stress. And we know physiologically that's what causes cortisol, ah decreases testosterone. um You see blood flows centrally, so you have less blood in your muscles and your brain.
00:58:48
Speaker
And so it undermines athletic performance and ah and intellectual performance when we have threat type stress responses. But the the solution to that isn't to just reduce demand and reduce what you're asked to do.
00:59:01
Speaker
the Oftentimes a solution is increased resources. So if demand is here high and resources are low, you increase resources so that way they can meet the demand. And resources, it can be broadly conceived. It could be more time.
00:59:15
Speaker
It could be more skill. It could be someone is in your corner. It could be nutrition. could be sleep. You know, and and so we think about this in school. Right. So if you take AP physics, you know, that's the demand.
00:59:30
Speaker
That's the stressor. You don't currently know AP physics and you want to know AP physics stressor.
00:59:37
Speaker
Is your teacher any good? Do you have enough time to do the assignments? Do you have a study group? Those are your resources. If you have all those things, you can meet the demand and do well in AP physics. So that's what we call a challenge type stress. That's positive stress.
00:59:50
Speaker
If you don't have those things, demand outstrips resources, you're in a threat type state. And so athletics too, often we have a belief that bodies need stress to get stronger.
01:00:02
Speaker
And so we put people under demand that is greater than what they can handle. And the question is, in those moments, do they feel as though they have the resources to meet that demand? And if not, they're going to feel threatened. And that's like a very enforcer thing to do because it's like causes people to quit.
01:00:19
Speaker
that it causes people to avoid, makes them feel bad. They only do it out of compliance. But if you have high demand and high resources, well, now it's stress that you can deal with.
01:00:30
Speaker
And then what we see in your body is decrease in cortisol, increase in testosterone, ah both men and women, but then increase blood flow to muscles in the brain. And the muscles in the brain are just cells that need oxygen.
01:00:43
Speaker
And so you get more oxygenated blood to perform better when you're under high stress, but high support. Yeah. And they're in this flow state read, react versus fight, flight, freeze.
01:00:55
Speaker
And coaches can stay in their own midbrain there. Um, fine final. final Yeah. Like coach coaches often think the choice is like hard or not hard.
01:01:07
Speaker
But that's too simple. It's like hard without support or hard but with support. And hard but with support or at least resources, that's flow. That's like I'm crushing. That's like um the closing scene in the movie F1 where Brad Pitt does the final lap, you know, and it's just like he's flying, you know, but it's hard.
01:01:29
Speaker
But he's got the resources. He has the skill, the time, the state of mind. He's got everything he needs to do the hard thing, and it feels amazing.
01:01:38
Speaker
Great movie.
Connecting Efforts to Greater Purpose
01:01:39
Speaker
i I'm going to add one fun final question, but then just I want to connect this stress to self transcendent purpose in helping connect this hard work.
01:01:52
Speaker
And what I feel is teaching delayed gratification where we're training in July for a spring season. and making this connection that you speak on for the self-transcendent purpose.
01:02:04
Speaker
How can coaches start to plant that seed so it plants in the offseason, planted in the offseason and grows in playoff time? Yeah, I think it it helps us start by thinking about the opposite.
01:02:17
Speaker
So the opposite of beyond the self intentions is um that you're doing everything solely for yourself. And, um, a lot of youth sports these days is like my parents spending as many possible resources as they can to give me as many skills and accolades as possible so that I could then have as many opportunities as possible in the future.
01:02:47
Speaker
And so, and now with it, you know, n NIL and transfer, like all these other things, like it's added a whole new layer. Um, and And not only does it feel like that's the dominant narrative is that it's all about investments, financial investments in self for financial future gain, or one-twentieth reduction in the cost of going to Notre Dame whatever you're trying to do.
01:03:14
Speaker
um it It also feels like if the minute you care about others and beyond yourself, then you're sucker. because you're misperceiving the reality of the system and you're sacrificing your own success for the sake of some misguided principle.
01:03:33
Speaker
And um but once everyone has agreed that that worldview is correct, it's gonna be a big issue because the reality is that if you're in a world in which there's costs now for long-term selfish interests,
01:03:53
Speaker
then you're subject to ah classic cognitive bias called delay discounting that um rewards in the future are worth less to us than rewards you can have right now.
01:04:06
Speaker
So like, if I tell you, you know, you could have, I'll give you $1 right now or $2 in 30 years, like I'll take the dollar right now. Right. So you, you value, devalue the dollar in the future.
01:04:19
Speaker
Now it's because we're complicated when I'll give you a thousand dollars now or a thousand and one dollars in 30 years. And you're like, well, okay. You know, then I'd Steve Allen, $1 over 30 years. um But the the problem is when it's more like, you know, I'll give you $1 now or $500 in five years.
01:04:40
Speaker
And there's, there are really good payoffs later for sacrifices. Now adolescents in general, hyperbolically discount future rewards. in favor of present rewards.
01:04:51
Speaker
And so, yeah like an adult makes a financial trade-off decision and they, you know, save X now to have it in their retirement later. Adolescents don't make the same calculations. They hyperbolically discount and then they take the present reward.
01:05:04
Speaker
Which a long way of saying, when when we're in a world of only company trade-offs between immediate self self selfish rewards and future selfish rewards, then we're in a world where it's very hard to motivate diligent, independent, resilient sacrifices right now.
01:05:23
Speaker
Um, but there are different ways of making the calculation. And one way to make the calculation is if I sacrifice something right now, I look amazing right now. So I get an immediate social reward of being awesome or, um, just being socially valuable.
01:05:40
Speaker
And once you're in that world, then you're like, well, adolescents actually value social rewards more than money. Like for an adolescent, money is usually just a route to social status. Like it's not, they don't really care. Like adults care about money for someone's sake usually, but teenagers don't.
01:05:56
Speaker
um And like they might care that they have more than others, you know, but usually they want to spend it on things that give them status right now. And so it's really social status that's driving things.
01:06:08
Speaker
So if you could, for example, be an athlete that's going to diligently practice and sacrifice, you know, and, and, and have less hedonic pleasure now, but you get to feel amazing socially.
01:06:23
Speaker
That's a good trade-off. Right. And, um, so yes, it's a lay of gratification that, you know, you'd be a good athlete in five years, but also right now you get to feel like I'm doing something prestigious that no one else is willing to do. Other people are going to look up to me because I'm diligent and I'm, I'm hardworking.
01:06:39
Speaker
I get picked for teams that then I get status right now. I get to perform ah right away. And then that something that's public and is socially valued. So there's a lot of social value that happens right now.
01:06:50
Speaker
So that's the high level point. The sub level point is one other type of social value is being the kind of person who contributes to others and matters to others. And that's the purpose point is that if, if I'm waking up early and sacrificing, doing something hard now, and it's for the sake of helping the team,
01:07:11
Speaker
Now I'm a socially noble person, right? I'm valued by others. And right now I have the payoff of, of having um social value to others. um If I'm doing that so that um I can be a role model to my siblings, you know, um or named a captain, you know, all these other things.
01:07:31
Speaker
So I think like but the the purpose point in sports is really about how, um, There are so there there are social values that are good for society and and demonstrate your contribution and they can be a reason why people sacrifice now.
01:07:50
Speaker
And that's often more noble, but it's also sometimes more effective than delaying gratification for long-term self gain. Man. Yeah, that I love it. And just in my mind, I was thinking of how I would articulate this into huddles and establish why somebody wasn't named captain because maybe they, they feel hurt that it, and it's like, Hey man, we got to connect this back to ah purpose point versus your perceived social value.
01:08:19
Speaker
Cause once you're named captain, that's when the work begins. Once you get your scholarship, that's when the work begins. Once you make or starting role, that's when the work begins and helping them understand that in life for future, uh,
01:08:32
Speaker
future challenge. There's like a subtle difference here. So I, when I'm coaching infield stuff, drills, uh, baseball, the conventional argument is, uh, focus and do a good job in these drills so that later you get playing time.
01:08:50
Speaker
So it's like sacrifice now. So then your payoff later, I never say that. What I say is Your teammate is going to be on the mound, sweating, throwing pitches, trying to throw strikes, and they're finally going to throw a strike, and someone's to hit a weak ground ball to you, and they want more than anything for you to get that out so you guys can get back in the dugout and hit.
01:09:16
Speaker
Put in the work right now so that you can do that for your teammate because your teammate is counting on you to make that play. And when you do, it's going to feel amazing. They're going to high-five you. They're going so proud of you. going so thankful.
01:09:28
Speaker
that you worked right now to become better, to help your team.
Fun Questions and Conclusion
01:09:33
Speaker
So that's, that's an example of like, there's a pro social, there's a community oriented purpose for your diligent skill building in this moment.
01:09:43
Speaker
love it. Great, great point to end on. I got three fun questions. Number one, favorite sports movie of all time.
01:09:54
Speaker
Oh, that's good. I mean, I went to Notre Dame, so I should say Rudy. Um, probably finding Forrester. Ooh. All right. Basketball. Here we go. Next up.
01:10:05
Speaker
Best fictional coach of all time.
01:10:10
Speaker
Uh, that's a tough one. Um, I don't think any of them really nail it. I mean, you know, Ted Lasso season three is perfectly good.
01:10:23
Speaker
Um, but, uh, You know, I don't think that, remember the Titans guy? and don't think that was that. What about Tom Peterson?
01:10:38
Speaker
ah He didn't teach happy anything except how to go to his happy place. um Visualization. I would say maybe, i probably the Friday Night Lights guy is my favorite. Yeah. which From the TV series, not the movie.
01:10:53
Speaker
Okay. Which guess what was filmed in a dripping Springs and all throughout Austin. yeah Kyle Chandler still lives out here. um Yeah. Chandler Chandler's Chandler is my favorite fictional coach. I'll say that.
01:11:05
Speaker
There you go. And last question here, best sports movie speech of all time. I would say Friday Night Lights, Billy Bob Thornton's, which he ad libbed that, which is a fun fact. But um ah Billy Bob's or I don't know if you've seen the movie Vision Quest, Matthew Modine wrestling high school.
01:11:27
Speaker
There's, a yeah, this is a deep cut, but he works at a hotel just as a, as his high school job serving and delivering food service. And there's a ah chef in there that just delivers a ah knockout speech when he wants to give up his sport ah just cause it's, it's hard right now.
01:11:46
Speaker
I'm probably going to say the groundskeeper from Rudy, five foot, nothing, a hundred and nothing without a speck of athletic ability. followed by his slow clap at the end of that movie. Yeah.
01:11:57
Speaker
That is great. I plan on watching that before my trip up North. Well, yeah. Doctor, thank you for your time, man. And, and to everyone 10 to 25, it is definitely worth a purchase. so you can take notes, highlights and reference back.
01:12:13
Speaker
ah But you also did your own audio book. Oh yeah. Yeah. I read it. Someone was like, Hey man, I, uh, I listened to your book. You're a good reader. I was like, I learned as a kid.
01:12:26
Speaker
Uh, there you go. But, um, but no, it's like, if I couldn't read my own thing that I wrote, that would be weird. But, um, the, ah probably the only other thing to mention is my masterclass, which came out, uh, with Carol Dweck from growth mindset.
01:12:41
Speaker
Uh, we, Carol and I did it together. And then we have a special guest, Steve Young, the NFL quarterback, uh, along with some other special guests. So it's, it's, um, it's doing well over on the masterclass platform.
01:12:53
Speaker
So I recommend people check that out. That, that is awesome. i I definitely will. So thank you, sir, for your time, man. Excited for, um, yeah, for coaches to learn from this and apply your tools and then start this feedback loop to, to see what's next, man. So thank you for your time.
01:13:10
Speaker
Sure thing. Talk to you soon. Yes, sir.